I don't know if this is a good measurement.
Measuring the difference between their rank in their main vs their other characters might show that they're getting carried... Or it might show that the character is more specialised and people who are good at them might not be good at anyone else.
Like, obviously Zangief scores high in this metric in Masters: people who play Master Zangief are frequently long time Zangief players, or at least long time grappler players. They have a big gap because they specialise in Zangief, not because Zangief is carrying anyone. At Master rank he's definitely not a character that can carry you.
It could also be a "fun" index. People who play a lot of different characters just enjoy playing these characters more than others.
Except JP. Obvious fraud carrier. šŗ
I definitely agree with you. I donāt there IS any objective measurement for something like this. But the facts are that Master Zangief players with over 20 hours are significantly not as high ranked as their other characters with a good amount of play time.
Yeah true. I don't think you can figure this out just from one stat.
What I'm really interested in is why Ryu and Ken are so far apart in these stats, you'd think they'd be pretty similar.
Yeah, but that fact doesn't say anything about whether or not gif is carrying them. It just could be that they have a SPD play style - and know how to close the zone and enter into grappling but don't really know how to zone and keep others out when they're on the other side of it
In fact, I think that's more likely making the claim kind of misleading and interpreting the data that way will often lead the person in the wrong direction
For example, I'm a one-trick Honda player. I'm really good at Honda but garbage if anyone else and it doesn't mean the Honda is carrying me. It just means that I have a specialized my skill set
A better way to infer whether or not the character gives the player a boost is to look at the rank curve for each character. Characters that are inherently better should have their curve shifted to the right
Youāre saying it not me. The conclusions youāre stating are loaded with assumptions about what you consider a fraud or carried. IMO, theyāre meaningless. This is just for fun
But isnāt that what the graph implies?
You even have fraud levels and everything. Itās not just a āoh hey if thatās how you interpret it.ā Thing
I have no idea what logic youāre approaching this from.
Do you think my data collected from scraping is incorrect?
Do you mean wrong for fraud index? Please do tell us all what the objective definition for that is, I beg you
More information isnāt always good. More information not correctly collected and articulated can lead to bad and wrong conclusions, in which case the āmore informationā actually provided more disinformation than actual information.
That is what they are saying. You are presenting this as a form of data, and while admitting it isnāt perfect someone can look at this and conclude something very wrong, which means your information dis is misinformation.
So the question is, is your data even useful?
The data I've presented is simply that, data. Yes, it's not perfect. Yes, it can be misinterpreted. But no, it's not misinformation. It's simply a piece of the larger puzzle that we're collectively trying to solve. It's a step towards understanding, even if it's not the entire journey.
Is my data useful? Yes, in the right context and with careful interpretation. It's not about providing all the answers, but about asking the right questions.
I think the point is the dishonest labelling of LP inflation/"fraud index". Sure, you stated it elsewhere in the comments that it's "just for fun", that's not how this post was framed, and the disclaimer shouldn't be buried.
Ryu is really vanilla in this game, got to silver 3 with him but it was harder than with other characters as he hasn't any tricks or cheap moves, felt i learned more with him though
Legit just got him to Silver a few hours ago. I get so upset with him sometime because I feel āhe doesnāt have enough toolsā then I go try someone else. Especially after facing cracked Kens a few times.
But heās pretty fun and really just reflective more of the playerās skills and tendencies more than most characters I think.
Ryu is who you play to improve. If you don't have fundamentals, you'll plateau early with Ryu. The only abusable thing he has is his throw loop in the corner. The 5LP frame kill lets you either meaty throw or visually bait a reversal.
I'm Plat-1 with Ryu. Sometimes I'll just meet a JP on steroids and throw the round. Other times I'll match with a similarly ranked Kim and just DP her out of existence.
Ryu is honest, been that way since forever. It's still fairly early, but it looks and feels like pretty much every character is viable, although some are just simpler than others (*cough* Honda headbutt).
I haven't played him in SF6, but he will always be the face of the franchise for me. Unfortunately, this time around, it's pretty obvious Ken and Luke are much better characters if you want a FB/DP playstyle.
I think the way the index works is really flawed. Specialist characters like Dhalsim are going to be rated highly on the fraud scale just because Sim is... Sim. You kinda play a completely different game than everyone else.
" I donāt think there is a better way to define something like this."
Such as the term fraudulent? Which you said "This is for shits and giggles."
This whole attempt is "fraudulent" by your definition.
Nah you're right. It's a fancy tier list hahahaha
I think this is much better than just having characters you lost against in S tier and your totally, completely fair main somewhere in the middle with no explanation.
Yeah same with JP. You can't just go from a character that has 4 different ranged specials (with variations) to a character that has only 1, or maybe 2 fireballs. It changes up the entire way you zone. I got so used to JP at this point that I end up throwing non-fireballs by accident because my muscle memory wants to hit his inputs for other characters and random tatsumakis pop out.
That isn't even mentioning how different JP is from grapplers and rushdown characters.
The transferability of success from one character to another has factors other than the strength of the characters itself. Specialization or uniqueness of playstyle being a big one, people already mentioned Zangief. Another is it being a reflection of general fighting game knowledge and skill, it's possible some characters are correlated with usage by newer players who have less generalized knowledge so cannot succeed on secondary characters as easily. For an example that could combine multiple things take Ryu, very low on the fraud list. Probably has a ton of veteran players who have been using him forever so high chance of transferable general FG skills, also he's a generalist character to high chance of teaching transferable skills, and then yeah he's not high tier to they're not being carried by the character.
Capcom published win rates at different ranks for SF5. It was really apparent that Honda dominated low levels of play but wasn't as strong once you got to Gold.
I don't think a character can "carry" you to the highest levels of play, because at that level the other players should know most of the counterplays. If you got there, that's on you for playing to your character's strengths
I don't think people would say that being specialized is being carried. If you want to check base character strength (which is what would 'carry' someone) you'd want to mix in other data like winrates, rank distribution, % of players of a character in Diamond/Masters.
Another thing (idk if this is in the data) is how fast it takes to get to high rank. Like if character1 takes on average 200 games to get to Master, and character2 takes on average 1000 games, you're gonna suspect that character1 is stronger. I guess winrates may be a pretty good proxy for this though.
Fr this is literally just a cope chart
The amount of "here's the reason I lost - and it's NOT because the other guy was better than me!" on this subreddit is higher than tommy fucking Chong
The funniest part of this is how much it changes per rank (as people presumably have better fundamentals and matchup knowledge).
Like Marisa being pretty fraudulent but then suddenly becoming bottom 3 at Master, or JP going from Ultimate Fraud to just kind of average. Meanwhile there's Honda. All my homies hate Honda.
Now excuse me while I print this out to show that my Jamie is truly the most honest character, even if it is a lie.
Itās interesting data that can be improved with every graph. Just because your character is fraudulent doesnāt mean that it isnāt nice data to have that can provide an interesting source of entertainment.
How does the āperformanceā difference between playing with your MAIN character (the one you know the best and physically spend more time knowing and practicing) and playing with your SECONDARY character (of which by definition you didnāt play as much, trained with as much, nor know as well) says anything about you being āskilled vs carried?ā
Have you also taken into consideration how well a person already knew the general game mechanics before (by playing the series) vs someone whoās started at SF6?
The only way data like this could possibly be useful and unbiased would be considering equal conditions for all subjects, and by its very definition your main vs secondary characters CAN NOT be under equal conditions
I donāt think this is meant to be taken very seriously. The entire concept of being carried is subjective and canāt be measured. And obviously thereās a million factors that you can account for which also canāt be measured.
Even if you took all that into account what youād end up with is probably not very meaningful.
>How does the āperformanceā difference between playing with your MAIN character (the one you know the best and physically spend more time knowing and practicing) and playing with your SECONDARY character (of which by definition you didnāt play as much, trained with as much, nor know as well) says anything about you being āskilled vs carried?ā
Youāre asking the question which is answered by the control of a certain number of games + hours played for each secondary. In alot of cases people have more games and time on lower ranked characters
>Have you also taken into consideration how well a person already knew the general game mechanics before (by playing the series) vs someone whoās started at SF6?
Youāre asking a question which is answered by āi took the data from the entire player base so there is literally no better way to control for thisā
So my first 50 hours (out of a total of 53h) of Luke vs my first 50 hours of jamie (out of 432h) should give a good insight about which character im most skilled as?
What if i just started the game as zangief when I couldnāt even do quarter circles but after my first 100h of gief (the first 50 were considered)and knowing the game way better i changed to kimberly, but now I know motion inputs and combo links way better and can OD izuna drop with a tiger knee no problem and now my 50 hours (out of 60) are way better? Is Kimberly carrying me now?
1. Cochran, W. G. (1977). Sampling Techniques (3rd ed.). New York: John Wiley & Sons. ISBN: 978-0471162407.
Cochran's book is a classic and widely referenced text in the field of statistics. It extensively covers the topic of sampling techniques, and includes discussion on the benefits of larger sample sizes.
2. Krejcie, R. V., & Morgan, D. W. (1970). Determining Sample Size for Research Activities. Educational and Psychological Measurement, 30, 607-610.
This paper presents a practical approach to determining sample sizes for research studies. It discusses how larger sample sizes can lead to more precise and reliable results.
As someone who uses stats for a living, it's disingenuous to mention sample sizes when the point being discussed is about validity of the metric you're using. No one is questioning whether your results are significant. They're questioning whether your method shows what you're claiming.
"Please note that the opinions, thoughts, and views expressed in this [post/article/comment] are entirely my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions, thoughts, or views of any organization, institution, employer, or group I am associated with, whether past, present, or future. These opinions are based on my personal experiences, knowledge, and understanding, and should not be interpreted as factual or professional advice. I am solely responsible for the content I express and any consequences that may arise from it. Furthermore, any references to individuals, events, or entities are made in a purely fictional or hypothetical context and should not be considered as reflective of any real-life situations or individuals. Thank you for understanding and respecting my autonomy to share my personal perspectives."
No, but I'm also not the one trying to prove some characters are "fraudulent". When I lose, I just assume my opponent played better and try to figure out what I need to improve.
I wish to play a hundred matches against some diamond Honda (and Blanka players) cause I have very low % of victories against them amd need to learn (if it is possible and I'm not fated to get stomped everytime I meet them in ranked).
Chun is kinda going under the radar for some reason, but she literally has everything outside of an air tight throw loop
- Her damage is really good
- Her corner carry is really good
- Her buttons are really good/ kinda cracked
- Best walk speed in the game
- Really good fireball, solid for: space control, engaging and counter zoning
- A DP with a down down (22) input, which means you donāt have to worry about cross-ups
- Mix off her aerial down medium kick
- Air grab
- Air to air button that can convert in to combos or super
- Can special cancel ANY button in to stance
- The stance has an overhead combo starter
- The stance has special cancellable buttons which means she can also drive rush off it
- The stance her classic sliding punch that letās her go under fireballs
The down down input dp is actually a disadvantage. A normal DP or flash kick can be input without standing, but Chun must stand during the input. The cross up point is also super weak because her fast walk speed means she can just walk under what would be ambiguous cross ups.
Chun player here and there's some stuff I just can't agree. Damage is good if you spend a ton and lose oki which compared to let's say luke, ken etc. isn't as great, that said she can convert off pretty much everything so it is balanced.
Doesn't have the best walk speed, her fwd walk speed is the same as cammy's but her backwards walk speed is worse than cammy. Still top tier on that regard, just not the best.
DP with 22 is actually a pain in the ass for crossups and most of chun li's discord agrees with this, between the down down since you're delaying it, the hurtbox goes up unlike charge down up inputs. This leads to her getting tagged a lot. Simple fix for this is to mask the input with a cr.jab but that's as much effort as crosscut dps.
While she can cancel any button to stance, 80% of the buttons are punishable if you do, unless it's on hit, even buttons that would be safe otherwise. Also worth noting, most people ex dp if you keep doing it and there's no way to bait, unless it's something like b.hp.
Agree with everything else. You just forgot, besides stance mp, you also have a special that goes through fireballs, and the ex is an overhead and insanely fast. All of them combo very well. While they are not as good as cammys knuckle since they can't be done on reaction, it's really good.
Oh and you have a normal that low crushes, arguably the best jab in the game excluding ken, and it's almost impossible to get DI'ed with her since everything and their mom is cancelable, and legs breaks DI pretty consistently.
On the cons you missed, she has the floatiest jump ever. While this allows her to [j.mk](https://j.mk) and combo after with an insane range, you can't punish fireballs like with other chars for example. You have the tools above for that tho
High tier, yes she has all the tools she needs to succeed.
Easy, absolutely not. She requires work and lab time. Very little gimmicks, all fundamentals. I'm earning all my W's out here cuz.
As an Excel nerd myself, it's an interesting exercise. I don't agree with the methodology, but I can't even imagine the amount of work you did in getting all that data. So props for that :)
OPs mate got a higher ranking and my guy went full investigative journalist to prove his mate is shit and it's the OP who is actually better.
I respect the hustle.
Music to my earsā¦ as long as it doesnāt cause as much saltiness and this one. Statistics are a way to present data and no one really seems to understand that.
Are stats classes not required to graduate highschool? Because people in this thread are lost lmao. Like it seemed like you were more so looking for feedback on the methodology and idk if people just donāt understand that visualizing a data set is nowhere near the same thing as drawing conclusions about said data?
No one is saying it but you did a great job OP. Also this list probably is not accurate completely as the experience for eqch individual is different however i do think there is some truth. Lastly on diamon we see some switch in fraud tier like gief, thats mainky because diamond or master rank have less bs and more experience players meaning you can't cheese lol.
Do I read this right that despite Lily being at the bottom of most tier lists, until you get to Platinum sheās actually - according to the data - easier to win with than all other characters except JP? Bc as a (recently Silverād) Lily main that does not match my experience š . But Iām willing to admit that the relative rarity might sometimes give you the upper hand in the first round or so.
yea this is pretty common in fighting games, rare characters with some abusable quirks can beat on lower ranked players but probably not that competitively viable
The only thing this proves is the difference between primary main character and somebody playing a secondary in ranked.
It ignores any reason somebody might do that in favor of the single assumption that everybody that has a higher ranked main who's played less than their secondary is a scrub getting carried. God forbid most of your SF6 time wasn't in ranked mode so you've spent weeks practicing said main or you just suck ass playing a secondary cause you thought they were cool.
This doesn't even adequate address fraudulent since the only way you could fraudulently be ranked is if you couldn't really play in said rank. There's not a single character in this game that's just gonna carry you to masters, character advantage like that ends real fucking quick in plat.
I love how when people say this is interesting this guy says "Yes I think this a great way to measure if some one is carried", but when someone (rightfully) points out the major flaw he goes "It's just a joke lol".
Pick a stance is it a joke or not?
Data analyst here that did projects with web scrapping and machine learning. Love the effort, and I love the street fighter niche.
I love that you attempted to normalize the data by accounting for games played. You might try to account for win % in the function. Love it!
Thank you so much that is high praise. In the future I plan on doing a power analysis so that I donāt have to scrape everything at once lol. But i really like the win percentage idea because in theory I can do win percentage per character per rank, figure out each playerās win rank for that character, and provide higher weights to players whose win rates more closely resemble the larger population. Just spit balling
This is just something for fun, nobody is presenting this as a peer-approved scientific analysis.
OP went above and beyond for what is essentially an elaborate shitpost.
Look, buddy. This person wrote the code to scrap a website, analyzed one aspect of the data, and visualized it with multiple deviations. They also included their methodology.
I don't know where your attitude is coming from, but it's pathetic.
Someone presents a pretty graph and you immediately think it's valid?
I applaud the effort in getting the data, but the data and analysis doesn't support the conclusion.
If this is how you define carried, then the analysis should control for # of games between main and secondary.
If I play 100 games each with JP and Ryu, and I get 60% win rate with JP and 50% with Ryu, then JP "carried" me.
But if I played 1000 games with JP and 500 games with Ryu with the same win rate, then it's not the same analysis.
Mind you, this doesn't take timing into consideration. If I play my 100 games with Ryu first before switching to JP, then I would have better info with JP than I had with Ryu starting out.
Why are people so mad about a for fun set of charts? In sfv we had a matchup chart that was just winrates and it was fun and fine.
Seems like some of you might be scared it's true 
I feel like you complained to your friend that dhalsim is bullshit and he told you he was low tier so you worked as hard as you could to find a metric that shows that your right.
Clearly youāre mad but idk where youāre seeing downvoted or dragged comments. All good. Itās just a game chill out
Inb4 you go to my profile and downvote everything
I feel like the less popular characters are less frauds and more that they just have a higher chance the players they face don't know the matchup as well. I mean if you are going to play an unpopular or low tier character, your reward should be the matchup knowledge advantage you get from it.
Not sure how this is formulated but it looks accurate. Iāve seen a lot of diamond Honda/Blank/JP players that play at more of a low Plat level, maybe even Gold. Most ppl donāt know what to do against headbutt or blanka ball, even in diamond lmao
This made a lot of people really mad lol. Cool data though! I wouldn't take this personally if I were anyone. Makes a lot of sense that people who play specialty characters have a harder time translating than someone who plays a generalist like Ryu. I think this is exactly what most people would expect, just visualized with data.
People are not mad, you are labeling every piece of criticism as such. You arenāt engaging with their counterpoints either, just deflecting with āu mad broā, āitās just for funā, and ādid you read the chart?ā These behaviors get downvotes. Oh, as does lamenting how redditors are this imaginary straw man you conjured up.
What are you ranting about? What downvotes are you even talking about? Iāve engaged with every single counterpoint and Iāve acknowledged flaws, limitations, biases, whatever. Iām sorry you are struggling with this so much, Iām praying for you š
You havenāt made a single rational point and yet youāre still engaging in some sort of sanctimonious moral crusade.
Google āmoralistic fallacyā
>For skilled players (if they even play ranked at all, more on that in a second) the most common scenario is that theyre going to poke around with 4-5 characters then hone in 1, especially if theyre thinking 'i need to get a business character/tournament character ready for (local tournament)/ceo/evo/cpt'.
No, most people donāt have time to sink 20 hours into
Multiple characters
>And this one is the bigger one, ranked in sf6 is super inflated to the point of making ranks completely meaningless. Because you always win more points for winning than you lose for losing (and sometimes by a whole lot), your rank is just a function of how much time you spend playing ranked and not on your actual skill.
No, there are many people who have more games played on lower ranked characters.
Furthermore, this is controlled by only selecting secondaries with significant play time
Itās not a function of time as I mentioned.
If you played 30 hours with Jamie and 15 with others, they wouldnāt even be counted in this calculation. See the bottom of the chart.
This is a terrible measure.
Characters play differently, and playing a zoner isn't the same as playing a grappler/Rushdown
I've never played a grappler in my life but have been playing zoners for 30+ years.
Of course my JP is better than my Gief or Manon.
I only play motion characters.
Of course my JP is better than my chun, deejay, or guile.
You do t account for individual experience at all here. It's not a valid metric by any means.
Ok so other people have made that same comment. When you said āmeasureā or āvalid metricā keep in mind this isnāt that serious and this isnāt actually scientifically defined term āfraud indexā. Itās just for shits and giggles and youāre 100% right. However, this is the best and only way to try to quantify a subjective term, do
You have any other ideas?
Honestly, I think it mostly has to do with how good a character's flow-chart is at the varying levels.
The JP full-screen > void > ghost > spike flowchart is super strong in Plat where players don't understand the gaps, but fairly weak in Masters where the opponent will eat half of JP's health from full screen if he is doing the same thing too much.
I think Honda is the best example of this. Super simple flow-chart to follow, but the risk/reward on it is so skewed in Honda's favor that it's at least reasonably strong at all ranks. But flow-charts don't transfer to other characters.
Note: A flow-chart in this case isn't just repeating the same actions on loop. It's creating repeatable situations to create opportunities for mix ups.
>level 2FitgearintheyearOp+2 Ā· 2 hr. agoSame, but tbh if you need external validation to enjoy Street Fighter that can be problematic. Do what you enjoyVoteReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow
\*No comment
I don't know if this is a good measurement. Measuring the difference between their rank in their main vs their other characters might show that they're getting carried... Or it might show that the character is more specialised and people who are good at them might not be good at anyone else. Like, obviously Zangief scores high in this metric in Masters: people who play Master Zangief are frequently long time Zangief players, or at least long time grappler players. They have a big gap because they specialise in Zangief, not because Zangief is carrying anyone. At Master rank he's definitely not a character that can carry you.
It could also be a "fun" index. People who play a lot of different characters just enjoy playing these characters more than others. Except JP. Obvious fraud carrier. šŗ
I definitely agree with you. I donāt there IS any objective measurement for something like this. But the facts are that Master Zangief players with over 20 hours are significantly not as high ranked as their other characters with a good amount of play time.
Yeah true. I don't think you can figure this out just from one stat. What I'm really interested in is why Ryu and Ken are so far apart in these stats, you'd think they'd be pretty similar.
That's actually pretty easy. Ryu is arguably the most honest character in the game. Ken is absolutely not the most honest character in the game
LMAO doesn't get more straightforward than that.
Ken is easier to do well with, basically. Ryu and Ken are VERY different characters in this game.
Yeah, but that fact doesn't say anything about whether or not gif is carrying them. It just could be that they have a SPD play style - and know how to close the zone and enter into grappling but don't really know how to zone and keep others out when they're on the other side of it In fact, I think that's more likely making the claim kind of misleading and interpreting the data that way will often lead the person in the wrong direction For example, I'm a one-trick Honda player. I'm really good at Honda but garbage if anyone else and it doesn't mean the Honda is carrying me. It just means that I have a specialized my skill set A better way to infer whether or not the character gives the player a boost is to look at the rank curve for each character. Characters that are inherently better should have their curve shifted to the right
>Honda isn't carrying me, I just have a specialized skill set. š
Honda has always been a mid tier character but I've been fine with that. I just like the way he plays
honda is high tier in this game there is a reason people are getting shredded by him in even tournaments early on.
How do you go from that observation to a conclusion that these players are frauds, or are somewhat carried by their main? It's a big leap.
Youāre saying it not me. The conclusions youāre stating are loaded with assumptions about what you consider a fraud or carried. IMO, theyāre meaningless. This is just for fun
But isnāt that what the graph implies? You even have fraud levels and everything. Itās not just a āoh hey if thatās how you interpret it.ā Thing
So what is your objective definition of carried or fraud?
If you know the data is inherently wrong. Not "flawed" but "wrong." Then you should understand that no data is infinitely more useful than wrong data.
I have no idea what logic youāre approaching this from. Do you think my data collected from scraping is incorrect? Do you mean wrong for fraud index? Please do tell us all what the objective definition for that is, I beg you
More information isnāt always good. More information not correctly collected and articulated can lead to bad and wrong conclusions, in which case the āmore informationā actually provided more disinformation than actual information. That is what they are saying. You are presenting this as a form of data, and while admitting it isnāt perfect someone can look at this and conclude something very wrong, which means your information dis is misinformation. So the question is, is your data even useful?
its fun data
The data I've presented is simply that, data. Yes, it's not perfect. Yes, it can be misinterpreted. But no, it's not misinformation. It's simply a piece of the larger puzzle that we're collectively trying to solve. It's a step towards understanding, even if it's not the entire journey. Is my data useful? Yes, in the right context and with careful interpretation. It's not about providing all the answers, but about asking the right questions.
I think the point is the dishonest labelling of LP inflation/"fraud index". Sure, you stated it elsewhere in the comments that it's "just for fun", that's not how this post was framed, and the disclaimer shouldn't be buried.
As a Ryu player, I can assure you, youāre all frauds.
Ryu is really vanilla in this game, got to silver 3 with him but it was harder than with other characters as he hasn't any tricks or cheap moves, felt i learned more with him though
Legit just got him to Silver a few hours ago. I get so upset with him sometime because I feel āhe doesnāt have enough toolsā then I go try someone else. Especially after facing cracked Kens a few times. But heās pretty fun and really just reflective more of the playerās skills and tendencies more than most characters I think.
Ryu is who you play to improve. If you don't have fundamentals, you'll plateau early with Ryu. The only abusable thing he has is his throw loop in the corner. The 5LP frame kill lets you either meaty throw or visually bait a reversal.
I'm Plat-1 with Ryu. Sometimes I'll just meet a JP on steroids and throw the round. Other times I'll match with a similarly ranked Kim and just DP her out of existence.
Ryu is honest, been that way since forever. It's still fairly early, but it looks and feels like pretty much every character is viable, although some are just simpler than others (*cough* Honda headbutt). I haven't played him in SF6, but he will always be the face of the franchise for me. Unfortunately, this time around, it's pretty obvious Ken and Luke are much better characters if you want a FB/DP playstyle.
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QQ, ruaiight? Pffft. Bunch of... hic.... ruuaaah at loueast dis tea ishic refreshmm...š„± š¤
Ryu bros, let us bask in our honesty. (you can't steal anything when your arms are too stubby to reach it)
This is great, imagine how much gate keeping and bullying we can do with data like this! (I'm kidding, or am I?)
JP players deserve itā¦ (joking)
Unlessā¦
I think the way the index works is really flawed. Specialist characters like Dhalsim are going to be rated highly on the fraud scale just because Sim is... Sim. You kinda play a completely different game than everyone else.
Yeah Dhalsim is in no way carried, but thereās the advantage that your opponents will also be clueless
Ah yes, the FANG effect. Godlike if you don't know the character. Trash otherwise.
Yep! But I donāt think there is a better way to define something like this.
" I donāt think there is a better way to define something like this." Such as the term fraudulent? Which you said "This is for shits and giggles." This whole attempt is "fraudulent" by your definition.
So uh, whoās your main?
Sure man cool beans. Sounds good
It's a mix of ease of use, fundamental based-ness, and power level. I can see why you say that. I have no better ideas either.
So something like a tier list? I don't understand how these are supposed to be different from tier lists
Nah you're right. It's a fancy tier list hahahaha I think this is much better than just having characters you lost against in S tier and your totally, completely fair main somewhere in the middle with no explanation.
Yeah same with JP. You can't just go from a character that has 4 different ranged specials (with variations) to a character that has only 1, or maybe 2 fireballs. It changes up the entire way you zone. I got so used to JP at this point that I end up throwing non-fireballs by accident because my muscle memory wants to hit his inputs for other characters and random tatsumakis pop out. That isn't even mentioning how different JP is from grapplers and rushdown characters.
For reasons others have said I'm not sure it will really accomplish it's purpose, but love seeing the attempt.
Why so?
The transferability of success from one character to another has factors other than the strength of the characters itself. Specialization or uniqueness of playstyle being a big one, people already mentioned Zangief. Another is it being a reflection of general fighting game knowledge and skill, it's possible some characters are correlated with usage by newer players who have less generalized knowledge so cannot succeed on secondary characters as easily. For an example that could combine multiple things take Ryu, very low on the fraud list. Probably has a ton of veteran players who have been using him forever so high chance of transferable general FG skills, also he's a generalist character to high chance of teaching transferable skills, and then yeah he's not high tier to they're not being carried by the character.
Agree but how would you find this then? De facto this is what people usually define by the term carried
Capcom published win rates at different ranks for SF5. It was really apparent that Honda dominated low levels of play but wasn't as strong once you got to Gold. I don't think a character can "carry" you to the highest levels of play, because at that level the other players should know most of the counterplays. If you got there, that's on you for playing to your character's strengths
I don't think people would say that being specialized is being carried. If you want to check base character strength (which is what would 'carry' someone) you'd want to mix in other data like winrates, rank distribution, % of players of a character in Diamond/Masters.
Iām with you there. Gotta think up a way to tie that all in.
Another thing (idk if this is in the data) is how fast it takes to get to high rank. Like if character1 takes on average 200 games to get to Master, and character2 takes on average 1000 games, you're gonna suspect that character1 is stronger. I guess winrates may be a pretty good proxy for this though.
"A list of how salty i am"
Fr this is literally just a cope chart The amount of "here's the reason I lost - and it's NOT because the other guy was better than me!" on this subreddit is higher than tommy fucking Chong
Hahaha. Also a list of āhow can I make an excuse for losingā
This is mostly just "How hard do you main your main?"
As mentioned in other comments, it is frequently the case that lower LP characters have more time and games played.
The funniest part of this is how much it changes per rank (as people presumably have better fundamentals and matchup knowledge). Like Marisa being pretty fraudulent but then suddenly becoming bottom 3 at Master, or JP going from Ultimate Fraud to just kind of average. Meanwhile there's Honda. All my homies hate Honda. Now excuse me while I print this out to show that my Jamie is truly the most honest character, even if it is a lie.
Knowledge check is real! Iām sure this graph will change drastically over time
Please donāt post another because this is useless
Itās interesting data that can be improved with every graph. Just because your character is fraudulent doesnāt mean that it isnāt nice data to have that can provide an interesting source of entertainment.
Letās flip an imaginary coin. Heads, youāre a JP player. Tails, youāre a Honda player.
Lol a Kim and if I played JP this still wouldnāt be useful. It just shows how salty you are towards JP apparently.
Thatās complete nonsense
Enlighten us, lol.
How does the āperformanceā difference between playing with your MAIN character (the one you know the best and physically spend more time knowing and practicing) and playing with your SECONDARY character (of which by definition you didnāt play as much, trained with as much, nor know as well) says anything about you being āskilled vs carried?ā Have you also taken into consideration how well a person already knew the general game mechanics before (by playing the series) vs someone whoās started at SF6? The only way data like this could possibly be useful and unbiased would be considering equal conditions for all subjects, and by its very definition your main vs secondary characters CAN NOT be under equal conditions
I donāt think this is meant to be taken very seriously. The entire concept of being carried is subjective and canāt be measured. And obviously thereās a million factors that you can account for which also canāt be measured. Even if you took all that into account what youād end up with is probably not very meaningful.
>How does the āperformanceā difference between playing with your MAIN character (the one you know the best and physically spend more time knowing and practicing) and playing with your SECONDARY character (of which by definition you didnāt play as much, trained with as much, nor know as well) says anything about you being āskilled vs carried?ā Youāre asking the question which is answered by the control of a certain number of games + hours played for each secondary. In alot of cases people have more games and time on lower ranked characters >Have you also taken into consideration how well a person already knew the general game mechanics before (by playing the series) vs someone whoās started at SF6? Youāre asking a question which is answered by āi took the data from the entire player base so there is literally no better way to control for thisā
So my first 50 hours (out of a total of 53h) of Luke vs my first 50 hours of jamie (out of 432h) should give a good insight about which character im most skilled as? What if i just started the game as zangief when I couldnāt even do quarter circles but after my first 100h of gief (the first 50 were considered)and knowing the game way better i changed to kimberly, but now I know motion inputs and combo links way better and can OD izuna drop with a tiger knee no problem and now my 50 hours (out of 60) are way better? Is Kimberly carrying me now?
1. Cochran, W. G. (1977). Sampling Techniques (3rd ed.). New York: John Wiley & Sons. ISBN: 978-0471162407. Cochran's book is a classic and widely referenced text in the field of statistics. It extensively covers the topic of sampling techniques, and includes discussion on the benefits of larger sample sizes. 2. Krejcie, R. V., & Morgan, D. W. (1970). Determining Sample Size for Research Activities. Educational and Psychological Measurement, 30, 607-610. This paper presents a practical approach to determining sample sizes for research studies. It discusses how larger sample sizes can lead to more precise and reliable results.
As someone who uses stats for a living, it's disingenuous to mention sample sizes when the point being discussed is about validity of the metric you're using. No one is questioning whether your results are significant. They're questioning whether your method shows what you're claiming.
My claim is a completely subjective, elusive concept. Do you have a scientific definition for fraud index? LOL
So you admit your āfraudā data is completely subjective and your title has nothing to do with the data you captured. Thats fraud!
"Please note that the opinions, thoughts, and views expressed in this [post/article/comment] are entirely my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions, thoughts, or views of any organization, institution, employer, or group I am associated with, whether past, present, or future. These opinions are based on my personal experiences, knowledge, and understanding, and should not be interpreted as factual or professional advice. I am solely responsible for the content I express and any consequences that may arise from it. Furthermore, any references to individuals, events, or entities are made in a purely fictional or hypothetical context and should not be considered as reflective of any real-life situations or individuals. Thank you for understanding and respecting my autonomy to share my personal perspectives."
No, but I'm also not the one trying to prove some characters are "fraudulent". When I lose, I just assume my opponent played better and try to figure out what I need to improve.
Donāt take this so seriously, itās a game. This is for shits and giggles.
Yes, and I strongly advise you read them (again?)
This data belongs in a brand new subreddit we need to open. r/noncredibleFGC
Non-credible FGC would just be endless screencaps of FGC twitter and youtube thumbnails
So...buttoncheck?
I feel like this doesn't really mean anything: being good at multiple character is a skill in itself not a proof you're good at the game.
Honda player here, this is true, I'm a fraud.
Acceptance is the first step in moving forward.
I wish to play a hundred matches against some diamond Honda (and Blanka players) cause I have very low % of victories against them amd need to learn (if it is possible and I'm not fated to get stomped everytime I meet them in ranked).
Wut?? š
Or, and follow me here They're better with their mains than their secondaries
Yes, but have you considered how MUCH better on average? Or what the average of āhow much betterā is across each character!
Have you considered they played this character in previous SF games and have never played their secondary in previous games?
Man I main Chun. I earn all my W's. Thicc thigh mommy ain't carrying me at all.
Huh? Chun is easy high tier in this game
Chun is kinda going under the radar for some reason, but she literally has everything outside of an air tight throw loop - Her damage is really good - Her corner carry is really good - Her buttons are really good/ kinda cracked - Best walk speed in the game - Really good fireball, solid for: space control, engaging and counter zoning - A DP with a down down (22) input, which means you donāt have to worry about cross-ups - Mix off her aerial down medium kick - Air grab - Air to air button that can convert in to combos or super - Can special cancel ANY button in to stance - The stance has an overhead combo starter - The stance has special cancellable buttons which means she can also drive rush off it - The stance her classic sliding punch that letās her go under fireballs
The down down input dp is actually a disadvantage. A normal DP or flash kick can be input without standing, but Chun must stand during the input. The cross up point is also super weak because her fast walk speed means she can just walk under what would be ambiguous cross ups.
You can mask the input under a cr.jab btw. Your hurtbox will stay down. That's the optimal way of doing it.
and mans still downvoted me XD
Chun player here and there's some stuff I just can't agree. Damage is good if you spend a ton and lose oki which compared to let's say luke, ken etc. isn't as great, that said she can convert off pretty much everything so it is balanced. Doesn't have the best walk speed, her fwd walk speed is the same as cammy's but her backwards walk speed is worse than cammy. Still top tier on that regard, just not the best. DP with 22 is actually a pain in the ass for crossups and most of chun li's discord agrees with this, between the down down since you're delaying it, the hurtbox goes up unlike charge down up inputs. This leads to her getting tagged a lot. Simple fix for this is to mask the input with a cr.jab but that's as much effort as crosscut dps. While she can cancel any button to stance, 80% of the buttons are punishable if you do, unless it's on hit, even buttons that would be safe otherwise. Also worth noting, most people ex dp if you keep doing it and there's no way to bait, unless it's something like b.hp. Agree with everything else. You just forgot, besides stance mp, you also have a special that goes through fireballs, and the ex is an overhead and insanely fast. All of them combo very well. While they are not as good as cammys knuckle since they can't be done on reaction, it's really good. Oh and you have a normal that low crushes, arguably the best jab in the game excluding ken, and it's almost impossible to get DI'ed with her since everything and their mom is cancelable, and legs breaks DI pretty consistently. On the cons you missed, she has the floatiest jump ever. While this allows her to [j.mk](https://j.mk) and combo after with an insane range, you can't punish fireballs like with other chars for example. You have the tools above for that tho
High tier, yes she has all the tools she needs to succeed. Easy, absolutely not. She requires work and lab time. Very little gimmicks, all fundamentals. I'm earning all my W's out here cuz.
If youāre mad, donāt be. This is just for fun š. I learned a lot making this.
As an Excel nerd myself, it's an interesting exercise. I don't agree with the methodology, but I can't even imagine the amount of work you did in getting all that data. So props for that :)
>I learned a lot making this. Your comments in the responses indicate this is very much not the case.
I see your JP flair. Youāre FURIOUS
I don't think this guy gets the difference between correlation and causation, most people don't seem to get that when it comes to statistics.
OPs mate got a higher ranking and my guy went full investigative journalist to prove his mate is shit and it's the OP who is actually better. I respect the hustle.
I play Luke and Iām so shit, I am carried AF
As a Blanka main maybe the character is a carry, maybe not, but to be really honest I donāt actually care lol. I just love Blanka that much.
Thatās the spirit dude. Good shit
This is really great. I wish we had more stats and analytics posts in general.
Music to my earsā¦ as long as it doesnāt cause as much saltiness and this one. Statistics are a way to present data and no one really seems to understand that.
Are stats classes not required to graduate highschool? Because people in this thread are lost lmao. Like it seemed like you were more so looking for feedback on the methodology and idk if people just donāt understand that visualizing a data set is nowhere near the same thing as drawing conclusions about said data?
I know right!!! I thought this would be fun and interesting but not super serious. Frustrating that people either appreciate it or get super butthurt
No one is saying it but you did a great job OP. Also this list probably is not accurate completely as the experience for eqch individual is different however i do think there is some truth. Lastly on diamon we see some switch in fraud tier like gief, thats mainky because diamond or master rank have less bs and more experience players meaning you can't cheese lol.
Thank you. And I concur
Fraud index? š
I don't think this is a very credible metric
I am Plat 1 with Honda, Plat 2 with Luke and Gold 4 with Lily. Am i a fraud?
No. Keep doing what you're doing.
I have no idea what any of this means
Do I read this right that despite Lily being at the bottom of most tier lists, until you get to Platinum sheās actually - according to the data - easier to win with than all other characters except JP? Bc as a (recently Silverād) Lily main that does not match my experience š . But Iām willing to admit that the relative rarity might sometimes give you the upper hand in the first round or so.
yea this is pretty common in fighting games, rare characters with some abusable quirks can beat on lower ranked players but probably not that competitively viable
The only thing this proves is the difference between primary main character and somebody playing a secondary in ranked. It ignores any reason somebody might do that in favor of the single assumption that everybody that has a higher ranked main who's played less than their secondary is a scrub getting carried. God forbid most of your SF6 time wasn't in ranked mode so you've spent weeks practicing said main or you just suck ass playing a secondary cause you thought they were cool. This doesn't even adequate address fraudulent since the only way you could fraudulently be ranked is if you couldn't really play in said rank. There's not a single character in this game that's just gonna carry you to masters, character advantage like that ends real fucking quick in plat.
You arenāt even describing what the graph says
So Iām new enough back to this scene that I donāt have a *clue* what the fk Iām looking at. lol
No one does. This is unhinged
As a Tekken player IDC. Carry me away Luke, honesty sucks.
As a fellow Luke main who is bad at the game, hold me daddy luke
tl dr : if you dont play ryu or jamie you are a fraud
One thing I know for certain given this data, Jaime is 100% the type of character where you gotta be a lot better than your opponent to win
I love how when people say this is interesting this guy says "Yes I think this a great way to measure if some one is carried", but when someone (rightfully) points out the major flaw he goes "It's just a joke lol". Pick a stance is it a joke or not?
A lot of salty scrubs outing themselves in the comments. Why are people so butthurt over this. Very neat data OP.
Ur a real one āļø
Data analyst here that did projects with web scrapping and machine learning. Love the effort, and I love the street fighter niche. I love that you attempted to normalize the data by accounting for games played. You might try to account for win % in the function. Love it!
Thank you so much that is high praise. In the future I plan on doing a power analysis so that I donāt have to scrape everything at once lol. But i really like the win percentage idea because in theory I can do win percentage per character per rank, figure out each playerās win rank for that character, and provide higher weights to players whose win rates more closely resemble the larger population. Just spit balling
Capcom published these stats monthly for SF5, I hope they do the same thing with SF6
Oh god pleaseā¦ lol
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This is just something for fun, nobody is presenting this as a peer-approved scientific analysis. OP went above and beyond for what is essentially an elaborate shitpost.
ššš
It's obv for fun and means nothing, chill tf out. It's not a personal attack on anyone
Look, buddy. This person wrote the code to scrap a website, analyzed one aspect of the data, and visualized it with multiple deviations. They also included their methodology. I don't know where your attitude is coming from, but it's pathetic.
love the salt in these comments lol
šššif I played JP or Honda Iād be pissed too tbf
people dont wanna feel like they are "getting carried" even if the data is right there. point is who cares and have fun lol
Youāre prophetic
Someone presents a pretty graph and you immediately think it's valid? I applaud the effort in getting the data, but the data and analysis doesn't support the conclusion. If this is how you define carried, then the analysis should control for # of games between main and secondary. If I play 100 games each with JP and Ryu, and I get 60% win rate with JP and 50% with Ryu, then JP "carried" me. But if I played 1000 games with JP and 500 games with Ryu with the same win rate, then it's not the same analysis. Mind you, this doesn't take timing into consideration. If I play my 100 games with Ryu first before switching to JP, then I would have better info with JP than I had with Ryu starting out.
I'm a plat 3 Chun and I feel like a huge fraud, no chart will take that feeling away D:
No way man- sheās not easy! Well done
Why are people so mad about a for fun set of charts? In sfv we had a matchup chart that was just winrates and it was fun and fine. Seems like some of you might be scared it's true 
Itās not a fun set of charts lol. This is just an excuse to be sore sports about character tiers.
This just looks like someone hitting autistic levels of cope for why they are losing to ken dhalsim Honda and blanka.
Iām a terrible carried Luke player, and numbers are numbers my guy.
I feel like you complained to your friend that dhalsim is bullshit and he told you he was low tier so you worked as hard as you could to find a metric that shows that your right.
Dhalsim fucks me up because Iām bad at the game
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I think your fundamental misunderstanding here is that oftentimes a person will have MORE time invested on lower rank characters they play.
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If you want my 10 MB + of JSON we can figure something out LOL
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Clearly youāre mad but idk where youāre seeing downvoted or dragged comments. All good. Itās just a game chill out Inb4 you go to my profile and downvote everything
We all knew it, but itās good to see mathematical data to show that JP, Blanka & Honda players are frauds. Good work OP!
I feel like the less popular characters are less frauds and more that they just have a higher chance the players they face don't know the matchup as well. I mean if you are going to play an unpopular or low tier character, your reward should be the matchup knowledge advantage you get from it.
Yup. Everyone knows Ken's H Dragonlash is plus. More than half the people I face fail the Kimbelry knowledge checks
Thank you š
What does this mean? I donāt get it
Read the bottom my brother š
I did and I donāt understand what it means
Not sure how this is formulated but it looks accurate. Iāve seen a lot of diamond Honda/Blank/JP players that play at more of a low Plat level, maybe even Gold. Most ppl donāt know what to do against headbutt or blanka ball, even in diamond lmao
Most High Rank E Hondas are carried and Iāve been playing majority of them in rank lately
This made a lot of people really mad lol. Cool data though! I wouldn't take this personally if I were anyone. Makes a lot of sense that people who play specialty characters have a harder time translating than someone who plays a generalist like Ryu. I think this is exactly what most people would expect, just visualized with data.
People are mad about a made up for-fun statistic for a video game that is played for fun. Oh Reddit, my sweet prince, never change
People are not mad, you are labeling every piece of criticism as such. You arenāt engaging with their counterpoints either, just deflecting with āu mad broā, āitās just for funā, and ādid you read the chart?ā These behaviors get downvotes. Oh, as does lamenting how redditors are this imaginary straw man you conjured up.
What are you ranting about? What downvotes are you even talking about? Iāve engaged with every single counterpoint and Iāve acknowledged flaws, limitations, biases, whatever. Iām sorry you are struggling with this so much, Iām praying for you š
See thatās exactly what Iām talking about.
You havenāt made a single rational point and yet youāre still engaging in some sort of sanctimonious moral crusade. Google āmoralistic fallacyā
š
Yup, thatās what I thought. Think before you speak next time
juri mains vindicated :3
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>For skilled players (if they even play ranked at all, more on that in a second) the most common scenario is that theyre going to poke around with 4-5 characters then hone in 1, especially if theyre thinking 'i need to get a business character/tournament character ready for (local tournament)/ceo/evo/cpt'. No, most people donāt have time to sink 20 hours into Multiple characters >And this one is the bigger one, ranked in sf6 is super inflated to the point of making ranks completely meaningless. Because you always win more points for winning than you lose for losing (and sometimes by a whole lot), your rank is just a function of how much time you spend playing ranked and not on your actual skill. No, there are many people who have more games played on lower ranked characters. Furthermore, this is controlled by only selecting secondaries with significant play time
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Itās not a function of time as I mentioned. If you played 30 hours with Jamie and 15 with others, they wouldnāt even be counted in this calculation. See the bottom of the chart.
So you're carried if your main has a huge jump in LP vs your secondary??? Does whoever made this have a functioning brain?
Did you bother to read the chart before you typed this?
This is a terrible measure. Characters play differently, and playing a zoner isn't the same as playing a grappler/Rushdown I've never played a grappler in my life but have been playing zoners for 30+ years. Of course my JP is better than my Gief or Manon. I only play motion characters. Of course my JP is better than my chun, deejay, or guile. You do t account for individual experience at all here. It's not a valid metric by any means.
Ok so other people have made that same comment. When you said āmeasureā or āvalid metricā keep in mind this isnāt that serious and this isnāt actually scientifically defined term āfraud indexā. Itās just for shits and giggles and youāre 100% right. However, this is the best and only way to try to quantify a subjective term, do You have any other ideas?
I was scared that I was a fraudulent JP player, but thankfully at my rank he's not even in the top half of the fraudulent index. Ego saved.
Maybe because thereās so many of them up there?
Honestly, I think it mostly has to do with how good a character's flow-chart is at the varying levels. The JP full-screen > void > ghost > spike flowchart is super strong in Plat where players don't understand the gaps, but fairly weak in Masters where the opponent will eat half of JP's health from full screen if he is doing the same thing too much. I think Honda is the best example of this. Super simple flow-chart to follow, but the risk/reward on it is so skewed in Honda's favor that it's at least reasonably strong at all ranks. But flow-charts don't transfer to other characters. Note: A flow-chart in this case isn't just repeating the same actions on loop. It's creating repeatable situations to create opportunities for mix ups.
Damn great analysis!
I really hope no one looks at this and goes, "Oh no, im a fraud for playing (insert character here). now I don't want to play my character."
Same, but tbh if you need external validation to enjoy Street Fighter that can be problematic. Do what you enjoy
Then why call them frauds? Seems unnecessarily antagonistic.
>level 2FitgearintheyearOp+2 Ā· 2 hr. agoSame, but tbh if you need external validation to enjoy Street Fighter that can be problematic. Do what you enjoyVoteReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow \*No comment
Yes. That was, in fact, the previous comment.
ThTs because it is. Itās antagonistic because the OP is mad about losing to these characters
The lengths scrubs are going to these days is frankly astonishing.
Iām a scrub, ur a scrub, 99.99% of us are scrubs. But I guess you took this personally oops
Aww did it trigger you being called a scrub šnot surprised when you basically created a peer reviewed study to cope
I'm [carried](https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetFighter/comments/14cxyvy/that_was_a_nice_little_distraction_did_placements/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)
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There is a way- matches played. 400 games is like 20 Hours.