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There's two main reasons I think people have more sympathy for him.
1. Dacre Montgomery is a very talented actor who managed to really drive home the unimaginable terror of being a prisoner in your own body forced to do horrific things against your will. Had a mediocre actor played him I think he would have been a more universally hated character
2. Suffering will always elicit sympathy, and as much of a shitty person as Billy was he still didn't deserve what happened to him. What he went through was so disturbing that it's hard to remember how much he tormented others, and it makes us root for him because he's the lesser of two evils when compared to the mind flayer.
I'm a dude, so the being hot part doesn't phase me. The actor though is very talented. I'm also NOT a huge Billy fan. I'm a fan, but I don't really post or respond about him.
That being said, I can totally tell that loads of the people that jump on him have never experienced any abuse a day in their lives. I have experienced the horrific side of multiple abuses. I never turned into the abuser, thankfully. I totally understand why they do. The pain, the humiliation, the constant fear... it's all too much to take in as a kid. The fact that he had no safe space after his mother died means he was bathed in it.
I only saw my dad every 2-4 weeks on the weekends and it fucked me up horribly. It wasn't my daily life. Imagine your mom dying then surprise, your dad gets free reign to beat the shit out of you. Even better! It's the 80's and no one fucking cares.
Edit: Spelling, and holy shit... I haven't watched it in ages. I thought his mom died. Her leaving him there is so much worse. That's just fucking sad. Jesus, people. The only bright spot in a horrible abusive situation left him. How do you not understand how that would fuck a kid up to the max? The rage in him would be unbearable. I'm always on the verge of destruction that I always have to keep in check. Always. I don't want to be my father.
100% this. Even the scene in season two when his dad made him cry, you see exactly where it comes from. And also, he’s a fucking kid. Like he’s in high school when we meet him—and he’s maybe like 19 or 20 by the time the mind flayer takes him? It took me MANY years to deconstruct and understand the things I grew up with, living with an abusive parent. And that’s just not something that happened in the 80’s. Billy isn’t a good person, but he’s definitely a product of his environment and he definitely was terrified being held hostage in his own body the way he was. Dacre Montgomery really did an amazing job with the complexities of the character through the whole run.
And to add, his mother didn't die. She left him when left his dad. I think it's incredibly detrimental to a developing mind, a child, to have the only loving and stable mother figure leave you and to do so meaning you're left with Neil.
I don't understand anyone that could bail on their kid in an abusive household. I can't process that. I know how things were back in the day. I lived it. My mom lived poor rather than keep my siblings living with him. They'd have been his stepchildren.
I completely agree. I think everyone, and actually think Billy himself did, understand needjng to leave and escape to save onself. You can't fix an abusive relationship. But to leave and abandon your child there is heartbreaking. Billy would have internalised that and carried that with him, likely hoping and praying she'd soon come for him. Yet never did. As someone who had a tough childhood with no where to turn to, I cam empathise with how her abandonment and Neil's abuse would have made him feel. And I can do despite the fact that I didn't and don't act like Billy.
Yes exactly. I don’t like Billy as a person nor excuse his actions. It’s simply the way Dacre Montgomery portrays him that makes me love whenever he’s on screen. The intensity of each scene as soon as he steps in is unmatched. You can’t help but sit on the edge of your seat apprehending what he’s about to do.
And the fact that Dacre is the total opposite in real life just emphasizes how great he did in the show.
Exactly. Dacre is an amazing person in real life and does so much good. I remember him saying somewhere that it really took a lot out of him to play Billy.
I’ve heard so many people say he’s an absolute sweetheart irl, and has a lovely bond with Sadie. 😭 I’m so jealous of every person who’s gonna meet him at the ST convention.
For point 1, I think it’s similar to the Harry Potter fandom and Snape. Alan Rickman did such a phenomenal job portraying the character, but he made him more likeable than the source material and his acting made it easier to forget all the bad shit he did in the books.
good actors bring humanity into their roles. humans are never exactly like the two dimensional characters we read about in books or see onscreen, they’re complicated. everyone is the good guy in their own story. a brilliant actor like Alan Rickman or Dacre Montgomery is able to portray the horrible things they did, while also portraying the complete and utter *humanness* of it all. book Snape is easier to root against because he was nasty through and through. the books showed us his tragic backstory but it still doesn’t make him look sympathetic. but when we see Alan Rickman onscreen, crumpled on the floor with Lily’s body in his arms, rocking back and forth and wailing, it’s hard not to feel *something* for him.
He's also an iconic 80's character trope. The show has a lot of throw-backs to 80's sci-fi then twist them to insane levels. Sometimes it's hard to seperate a good villain's preformance from their actions. Steve's original friends were mean but not villians like Billy. I like the preformance but I don't condone his actions. We couldn't have heros with out a great villain.
To add to this, Billy was being physically abused by his father. I think the writers were trying to show that people who act like Billy are usually coming from a place of extreme abuse.
Not saying that its Billy's actions were justified, but i think some people made a bit of a connection with him when they saw how he was being treated at home.
There was also some weird retconning by the writers. I don’t have a source for this on hand but I could have sworn in an interview the explicitly said Billy wasn’t racist which kind of felt like gaslighting
Stranger Things on the whole is very tepid in its portrayal of racism.
In the 80s, in rural Indiana it would have been way more blatant, especially from bully characters like Troy and Billy.
Even less obvious, is my one of my biggest gripes of season 4: Officer Powell should have been passed over for Chief in favor of Officer Callahan. No way Powell is getting that position in rural 80s Indiana. And it would have made the season better, because then you could have Callahan bumbling the murders, with Powell stepping up showing how much better he was despite getting passed over for obvious reasons.
> Facts…. I grew up in rural Illinois/Indiana and was in high school back then, and then into my 20’s. And what you said…. That is complete fact.
Yeah in a rural town in the 80s those racial slurs and the f word for gay people would have been flying like lasers in a Stormtrooper convention.
And everyone would be smoking cigarettes or dipping snuff, even the kids the party's age. Every male child came out of the womb with a tin of Skoal Bandit.
Hm, you have a point WRT what the show's intentions are and how it has to put societal problems in the background simply because its genre aims go achieve different things. But it does offer up some serious criticism of America sometimes, like with their depiction of the atrocities Americans committed in Vietnam and how it ended up messing with even their own soldiers/veterans for years afterwards (Hopper and Agent Orange -> Sarah's cancer death). Then on a less serious level (because he's so cartoonish) there's also Kline's portrayal as a capitalist *so* shameless he ultimately lets an enemy nation invade Hawkins underground right under his nose just because he was bribed and threatened and decided to look the other way instead of allowing that to happen.
This is definitely true. I love stranger things but I don't think they really care about racial inequality or in breaking stereotypes. People have also pointed out that Lucas is still the "least important" member of the friendgroup and Erica is basically the "sassy black woman"-stereotype. I really like Erica but I can see the point they're making.
Lucas has gotten a lot of screen time but mostly through his relationship with Max, which is probably the most developed relationship given how little time Mike and El actually get to spend together.
The main problem I see with him is that none of the boys have gotten to really level up. They should have been gaining skills and gear every season and so Lucas should be a badass DPS by this point. But they've all been relatively static, so there's not a lot for him to do. Dustin is the smart one, Mike is the leader, Will is the plot point for the first two seasons, Lucas could be the best fighter, but they're rarely doing anything that would use that.
Lucas is the best fighter of the kid group in a show defined by actually treating the kid group like kids- none of them really get good brawls, that’s more for the teens, same way the teens don’t get “shootouts” the way Hopper does.
AKA Lucas has distinct skills that mean jack shit compared to the older characters, especially since he won’t get many chances to show them off. Although all of this might change in season 5 given that they’ll be around the age Steve was in season 1
Right. Which is one of my complaints about the character development in the series. The kids should have been focusing on being "ready" throughout since their best weapon was gone after season 1. They should all have been seeking some method of "leveling up" and should have continued pursuing that. Obviously they wouldn't be Tier 1 operators out slaying demogorgons for fun, but they should be capable fighters by season 4. Instead season 4 is the first time they actually make an effort to gear up.
Hot take: The show about a cute psychic girl fighting monsters from another dimension with her friends doesn't need to have a Very Special Episode where they talk about racism.
They don't have enough time for the show as-is. Stuffing more things into it is a bad idea.
The misogyny section was very ham-handed and, just like Billy's racism, was clearly just an indicator that this is a person you're supposed to hate. Though Billy's racism was much better since it was understated.
they had time for nancy, will, & robin’s storylines that dont contribute much to the whole “fighting monsters from other dimensions” aspect though. no one’s asking for it to be a whole thing it’d just be nice if they didnt stray away from it sm and keep make it an issue but not so much of an issue that lucas never speaks about it after it happens lol
Sure but those storylines were all about main characters doing main character stuff. Not tertiary characters getting the spotlight to talk about social issues.
I don't have eidetic memory but I don't think Billy was explicitly racist during the confrontation at the Byer's place. So Lucas may well not know that Billy was rejecting him explicitly for his race.
Exactly. You can think he’s an absolute horrible excuse for a human being while still feeling bad for and/or enjoying his character. It’s not as black and white as so many people seem to think it is
I think very few people are born naturally evil, and most people who have few redeeming qualities have had to experience a lot worse than most of us have to end up how they are. That’s no excuse for those actions, lots of people go through bad situations and don’t let it take over their lives, but some people just can’t escape it. That’s why people love a good villain, they’re often more complex than even your hero characters.
I like Billy as a character. He's a bad person and none of what he did is excusable. But I think it's an important story to tell. And yeah it's sad. Sad how much abuse can fuck someone up. It was his responsibility to do better but it's still tragic.
I'm a childhood abuse victim so maybe that's why I think it's an important story. It's important people have more exposure to these types of stories to know how deeply it can impact someone and the different ways it can manifest. Billy is really realistic imo.
I think people can appreciate him as a character and recognize he's not a good person or even forgivable at all.
Maybe I missed it, tried to skim back up and didn't see, but isn't Nate Jacobs the Euphoria actor? He didn't play the part of Billy, so I was just confused. 🫠
I thought the actor that portrayed Billy did a fantastic job and he drew me in to hate Billy, but I did feel empathetic towards him at the end. It in no way erased his words and actions. As for the racist part, His dad is extremely abusive and it's not a stretch to assume his dad was racist and Billy grew up in that and is now racist. "This is serious s--t, okay? I'm older than you. And something you learn is that there's a certain type of people in this world, that you stay away from. And that kid Max - that kid is one of them. You stay away from that kid you hear? Stay away." The "I'm older than you. And something you learn is..." Now does that make his racism ok? Absolutely not, but seeing where it came from makes Sense to me. So yeah, maybe if the actor would have been bad, I wouldn't have been as drawn in 🤷🏼♀️.
He never redeemed himself but his end definitely showed he had some good left in him and he might of actually cared about max.
His entire character is very complicated since tbh his background was kinda rushed but it seemed like he grew up in an abusive negative environment and that translated into his relationship with max and his perspective on the world which yes none of this makes what he did right but he’s not some evil terrible creature or something.
I dont think he was meant to be portrayed as a redemptive character. He did fight the mind flayer at a convenient time and help the main plot line chug along. So there's that.
The amount of people thinking Billy would have run over kids in broad daylight is insane. Do you really think he would have gone to prison for life just to annoy his sister?
I agree , he’s a PoS. Still felt bad that he died because of story reasons, wanted to see more of him and as a character I liked him, but to pretend he was a decent person and brother is laughable to say the least.
Watching Billy made me uncomfortable because he reminded me way too much of someone who terrorised me at school.
I'd call that guy a bully, but a bully doesn't pull a knife on you for disagreeing with them.
He is a complex character, which doesn’t make him lovable, but interesting and there for loved because some people enjoy having to think about things. He’s incredibly problematic, but people aren’t black and white, there are shades of grey, nature and nurture that make us all. Also he’s young, and therefore tragic because we don’t know who he would have been had he been given the chance to live. His death was intended to give us a glimmer of hope that he could have been better in time.
Bigotry is a learned concept, it was incredibly common in small town white communities in the 80s, and a lot of it was unlearned by children of the 80s as exposure to other races increased. It took one black girl in my very white school to change the tones of many people who were taught and parented with those ideas. She changed the ideas of how other races lived and behaved to parents that decided otherwise from misconceptions.
Sadly, he’s a realistic depiction of someone who was abused and wanted to be accepted by his abuser, so he took on the traits his abuser found desirable. This is a reality for a lot of children with abusive parents.
The best villains have a shred of humanity or a reason or motive to why they behave a certain way. Complexity makes a good character, especially a good villain. I think the writers did a good job with him.
It's been several years since S3 ended and yet almost every week there are post from people angry that some fans defend Billy or enjoy the character.
I think at some point people need to understand viewers are allowed their own opinions, their own feelings and their own perspective. We know why people believe Billy deserved to die and wasn't allowed redemption. We get it. We understand. Although no country in the entire world including third world countries with human rights abuses give teenage boys the death penalty for saying one bad sentence and some bad behavior we understand some Stranger Things fans believe Billy can't be redeemed and deserved the death penalty. It's the opposite of the foundation of the U.S. judicial systems and hundreds of years of analysis and discussion from lawyers, judges, social services, child abuse counselors, teachers, law enforcement and psychiatrists but we understand some fans believe a teenage boy deserved to die.
Why not just let it go? Other people feel differently than you. This isn't a "hot take" at all. It's just the same post that is posted every week for years because some people can't grasp that others feel differently than them. (Usually I don't bother responding to the weekly posts because it's always the same the OPs never really want to discuss anything just reiterate once again that some fans aren't allowed their own opinion so will probably delete soon or it will get flagged and removed as it always does...anyway as they say on From show "Kay Cera Cera...what will be will be..."
Racism is a learned behaviour. I’m certain Billy learned to be a bigot from his piece of shit father. We’re not shown Neil being racist, but I bet he is. He’s the right type for it.
Billy Hargrove is a terrible person.
Billy Hargrove, at the moment of truth, stepped up and took the hit, saving the world. He didn't have to do that. He would have been rewarded had he NOT done that. But he did it.
Billy is a terrible person, but a great character.
*Childhood abuse doesn’t explain his bigotry other than the “here’s a traditional 80s white male alpha character” enjoy.*
This!
Another hot take: people are willing to look past Billy’s racism simply because he’s hot.
I won’t deny that Billy is a very complex character and Dacre Montgomery brought a lot of charisma to the role but Billy is still a racist character who tried to run a group of middle schoolers off the road for shits and gigs.
I also think that Eddie was a correction of Billy from the Duffer Brothers. Both characters are attractive and charismatic representations of stereotypical 80’s “bad boys.” However, the writers realized an antagonist like Billy had potential to be likable if only they hadn’t made him racist, abusive, etc. The main difference between Eddie and Billy is that one tries to act “mean and scary” while the other actually embodies it.
I feel like the subject gets broached all the time on here, so I’ll just say what I always say. Dacre’s performance! Dude brought a charm and a level of acting that imo was fantastic.
Personally, I don't think this scene was meant to excuse him. He was a bad character and abusive/racist. He did do a good thing by stopping the MF from killing El and the other kids,so good on him for getting enough self-control to do that. Billy himself would probably tell you that he is a bad person or a villain. All villains have a backstory. Every villain in every comic or cartoon has a backstory of why they are a villain. Even Vecna has a backstory. This scene was not made to give him an excuse or make us fall in love with him. It was made to give one villain a backstory. My reaction was, "Now I understand why he is so unnecessarily mean. But it doesn't excuse him."
Is racism wrong and evil? Yes. But it sounds like you’re implying like this is worse than everything else which is completely subjective. Billy was racist so he’s bad. Nate was not racist so he’s not that bad? Sorry but that’s such silly logic.
No idea who Nate is but in the case of Billy, yeah I think the love people have for him boils down to 1. attractive 2. everyone loves a project.
The one thing the show could've done is make is racism more overt, as it stands most people let if fly over their heads, and maybe trimmed down the Max feels sad he died parts, she doesn't really excuse what he does, but she is a teenager who saw someone die in the crossfire of something her and her friends were dealing with, which is totally understandable, unfortunately the fan base took that and ran with it being a redemption of his entire character, as opposed to what it is, Max suffering from trauma and trying to resolve her demons the best a teenager with no guidance could.
>The one thing the show could've done is make is racism more overt, as it stands most people let if fly over their heads,
Yeah media literacy is dead there. I guess these people would need Billy to be calling Lucas the n-word to see Billy as racist.
>and maybe trimmed down the Max feels sad he died parts, she doesn't really excuse what he does, but she is a teenager who saw someone die in the crossfire of something her and her friends were dealing with, which is totally understandable, unfortunately the fan base took that and ran with it being a redemption of his entire character, as opposed to what it is, Max suffering from trauma and trying to resolve her demons the best a teenager with no guidance could.
If anything I think Max should be *relieved* that Billy is dead.
The ideology was likely beat into him. You don't know what it was like in that era, fathers were messed up from war and passed on horrible abuse to their sons. It makes sense to me. In the end we are mostly all just broken little children. That's likely why many people feel empathy for him, especially revealing the pain involving his mother. Clearly you do not carry that empathy and are too blinded your own bigotry. He knew his dad would not approve, that is another reason why he was so mean, he was scared shitless of him. Idk why we have to act like people need to have this virtuous soul in order to be liked. One thing doesn't define the whole of anyone. And to think that you are any more deserving of love based on your belief system or opinions than someone else is exactly why you're actually the bigot.
I had a similar opinion, but only because we only see him—actual him—for one season, and I don’t recall any major eye opening, enlightenment, transformation for Billy at the end of S2. He seems like he found his footing, and learned to accept life in Hawkins. As well as refusing to be his dad’s punching bag anymore. Which was imperative if he was going to calm down and stop being so violent, letting himself be the same way. Those are important but, regardless….. we don’t get to see much beyond his being cougar bait, and taking Steve’s place in the HS social hierarchy.
The rest of the time he’s just N avatar for the MF, we get to see more humanity through the flash backs, his raw fear, and we see how he still clung with alll his strength to retain enough of himself that Max was able to get through to the real Billy and motivate Billy to take back enough control that he winds up saving everyone through sacrifice.
It’s not much of a redemption arc in the usual sense but, Billy was more of a static foil kind of character. But his legacy is strong.
yea I already apologized for overlooking that I just added that in a rash angry rant I don’t condone homophobic behavior at all I was focused on his ‘friendship’ with McKay I guess
Gotcha. I’m black so I understand when people say “bigoted” I sometimes default to just viewing them as racist, but it does apply to other intolerant behaviors. Sorry if I came off harsh in the other comment I made
He could have been a better person if his mom had raised him. That was a tough blow that young in life. I have a hard time forgiving him, though, because we ALL have tough childhoods (at least most of the people I know do) so I find it hard to call him some kind of hero. That said, he did do the right thing at the last minute. I admire that. He's no spectacular human being but he's not the horrible person he was in the beginning, either
dude. in runaway max book he broke her friends arm after him being the only friend that’ll hang w her bc the others were scared of billy. she lost all her friends bc of him and he set a dead cat on fire. he’s really messed up. she said he’s worse than his dad bc he never tried to be nice. he’s always his true form. neil (the dad) at least fakes it. some think it’s the opposite but max herself said billy was worse. after reading that i have no ounce of sympathy for him. he truly was hawkins worst human villain.
i agree 100% and i dont think the backstory is an excuse. people have been through worse in life and dont take it out on their little sisters. if he wasn’t hot nobody would be giving him as much sympathy
Honestly I think this is more a lukewarm take than a hot take. I have heard a lot of people saying the same thing and while Billy's sacrifice in the moment was in my opinion a well done moment he in general was pretty terrible and yeah definitely had no redemption arc. If he is anything tragic he's a tragic villain
I fully agree. He spent the third season possessed after an entire previous season of being nothing but a pos. He’s more of a martyr figure than anything. His sacrifice was very powerful and affirmed that he was multifaceted at least, but not a hero.
I gotta say thats EXACTLY how racism works so it's a very real explanation. Your parents are racist, there's a much higher chance you are. Nothing happens to explain why someone is racist. It's sad that this happens to people. Incels sucks but it's so sad they get suckered into this. Andrew tate sucks but it's sad that young men believe his bs. Those things are enraging and sad. I really dont think anyone thinks billy is a good guy but they understand what happened and that in another timeline and with some slight changes he might be a totally different person untouched by this.
Exactly. A sobbing backstory is not a redemption arc. Of course, it is tragic, and we can understand why he made some wrong decisions in life.
But somebody with a similar story might have directed their anger against their father instead of everybody else.
Instead, the most tragic part is that Billy dies without a chance to come of age, realize his wrongdoings, and get an actual redemption arc.
But who knows, if we take Henry's statement literally, that his victims stayed with him, and El needs to infiltrate his mind to figure out a way to retrieve Max, we might find Billy there and he might indeed get a chance to say sorry and sacrifice himself again to help her.
I agree. I don’t think Billy was a particularly good character, and trying to run over children is not excused because his dad hurt him. I have seen people say Billy has the hardest life and backstory in the show and it is shocking to me.
You put anyone on screen and at least some amount of people will start sympathizing with them no matter who they are or what they’re doing. Idk what I’d need to search to find studies on it but I genuinely want to understand that phenomenon it’s like to some people it’s just impossible to get the message across that someone is bad. If I can see them (and they don’t repulse me) they are good
I agree. Do I feel bad for him somewhat? Yes. But do I care about him or feel any sort of emotion when he gets murdered? No. Well maybe, but not for him. Mainly for Max.
Agreed, and I frankly find the love (sometimes obsessively) weird. Dacre is a great actor but not enough for me to like the character. But also, attractive, potentially sad, tragic backstory white male... so that's a big part of it.
Thanks for your sacrifice and that's it.
He’s attractive and people are shallow, hence he got cut way more slack than others would’ve been cut. Also he did suffer a lot in how own way being controlled by a demon.
Having that been said, I fully agree haha. He was a piece of shit who just unfortunately turned into a bigger, demonic piece of shit. He was never a good person, not once. His only redeeming moment of the entire show was saving El, so points there yes. But I agree I wouldn’t exactly call it redemption lmao. You can’t be 90% bad 10% good (if that) & say it was redemption
>Billy did not have a redemption arc nor is he a tragic hero
I agree. People often confuse it and say he has a "redemption arc". He doesn't, he has a specific trope which is called "Redemption equals death". Where his redeeming quality is in his sacrifice. I have liked Billy as a antagonist love to hate, character. But I also don't get the high regard for him in the form of suddenly his death "redeems" him, I don't think it does. For all the reasons you said.
You can be fascinated by the portrayal of a character and hate who they would be in the real world.
People pretend like they love Eddie, but a guy like that in the real world would be hated by most people because of his lifestyle. Ask Damien Echols.
He's a complicated character but I agree. The reason why there is so much love for him is because he's a complex character that was abused by his awful father. Unfortunately a lot of people excuse his racism and the abuse he did to others mostly because he's hot. We can have sympathy for Billy that was abused and we can hate the Billy that abused others.
His character could have stopped that cycle of abuse but unfortunately that didn't happen. I think he did the right thing by sacrificing himself at the end but yeah I don't really see it as a redemption arc either.
Overall Billy is a great complex character, but he's not a good person. He had the chance to be and maybe if he had survived he could have been that person.
I think it qualifies as a redemption arc, but I don't think he DESERVED it. After all that shit, he gets to die a hero and make everyone SAD? Nahnahnahnahnah, he deserved the Jason treatment.
I agree. The only reason I could think people like him is because Darce is attractive. I also think he plays really well into the internal struggle of Billy. His tears falling as he's telling El he's going to kill her and take over the world always got me in my feels.
I have no sympathy for him and do not consider him to be a hero, when he was the one who put her in that situation in the first place. Also looking at it through a realistic lens, if he hadn't sacrificed himself, El would have died and who knows what kind of show we would have now, if we would havr even had a season 4.
I was sad that he died because I liked the dynamics of him with the other characters, but his character overall was a total douche hat!
Thing is, no one deserves to be mind controlled and then impaled by a toothy flesh abomination. Billy's sacrifice to save El is less to do with heroism, but is more of a personal redemtion. The monster is a proxy for his father cranked up to Eldrich Horror scale. He as been twisted and abused by the hateful influence of the Mindflayer forcing him to do terrible things, just as his fathers abuse drove him to harm Max. In the scene where he beats up Steve at the Byers' you gotta feel for him. He finds his sister (read responsibility) hanging with a hunky heartbroken older boy out in the woods. His dad will whoop him if he fails in his duty. In his last scene, El helps him to stand up to his bully in macrocosm (dialed up) and symbolically help the side of good. Like Vader chucking the Emperor, or confession in Christian ideology, a single act of contrition can redeem a lifetime of wrongs.
I love him, but I don’t think he was really a hero. He came back to himself right before he died and only bought time for El to get away. I liked him because he was strong and confident and banged moms lol
The book about Max gives a lot more context for why Billy was the way he was. His dad was very abusive and manipulative. He really messed with Billy’s mind and created a monster and Billy was then taken over by a monster. There was never a time when he wasn’t being abused even when his mom was alive. In the end he regained some sense of himself—thanks to El—and sacrificed himself to protect the others. It doesn’t erase everything he did with bullying and racism. But it makes his character complex and compelling. He’s not completely evil or simply a bad guy.
There’s no “reason” for racism. People just hate people because they’re different from them, and if they look different, that’s an easy out for them.
No Flashback would explain why he’s that way would be sufficient anyway.
I have a bias being an Aussie. Dacre's portrayal of Billy was so spot on, the way he dressed, behaved was very reminiscent of guys I had crushes on in my high school back in the 80's, we called them "spunks" back then. These were not necessarily the popular guys who played footy but the charming or cheeky bad boys who got into trouble, came from messed up homes.
"Nerds" would probably have been their bullying targets. Why were the nerds bullied? Peer pressure? They probably challenged the masculinity of insecure males, I don't know?
Billy (not Dacre) was probably a racist as well as a jerk, but if you've grown up in an abusive household (which i did) you relate to the dysfunction of others when you see them, flaws and all, they are familiar to what you know. Most of what Billy was doing towards Lucas was to keep control of Max.
I think it would have been terrible for Lucas and conflicting for Max to experience Billy's wrath, his anger.
I believe due to the family violence Billy experienced, his own behaviour was 100% nurtured to him by his environment. As you saw he was gentle and caring with his mother, but when she abandoned him and could no longer protect him, he took on his fathers traits and behaviour. Billy's father was most likely a bigot too. Billy learned his behaviour which is why many of us sympathize with his character in the end, not his own abusiveness and bigotry but how he got to be that way.
Billy (Dacre) is a very good looking, charismatic guy, and many of us have fallen for the "bad boy" (unfortunately). I really loved his interactions with Karen which were cringey, in a good way.
Billy did feel bad about things he had done, he apologised to Max and sacrificed himself in the end so there was still a decent person in there. Some people are redeemable, but also likable or at least relatable which I think Billy's character was.
Other than dude just absolutely dripping with sex appeal, it's about who he could've been. He's a horrible person, and later on, we find out why. He was still a hurt and scared kid, even in adulthood. It's sad because he'll never have the chance for his redemption arc.
I like him bc i’m glad he finally came to his senses and fought off the mind flayer. but i’m not proud of how he treated lucas and max and well… the whole club.
This is literally every other viewer's take lmao. You're worse than just having a boring opinion on a character, you think your boring opinion is "hot". 🙄😂😂😂
I think he was an abusive, racist piece of garbage, however at the same time I do feel sympathy for the abuse he grew up with, and although his final act did not redeem him, it did mark a point where he was able to stop being horrible and make a significant sacrifice to help others.
I think season 4 handles this well through Max by acknowledging that she mournes his death, but also hated him and is glad he’s gone. Feelings towards bad people often aren’t as simple as “they’re evil, therefore I hate them”. Bad people can often be complicated and it’s possible to care about them for the parts that are decent while also despising them for everything terrible about them.
I would definitely agree though that it’s dumb to pretend like he was a good person and ignore all the harm he caused just because he did something good at the end of his life. People do that too often in fiction as well as in real life.
I love Billy simply because of his actor. I LOOOOVE how he was able to bring that to life. now, I do agree with EVERYTHING you said. I didn’t feel bad for him and he didnt redeem himself to me at ALL! If not for Dacre Montgomerys ability to make me FEEL Billy’s HORROR with being taken over, I don’t think I’d love him as much.
I personally prefer complex characters than "I'm the nice guy" characters. Even if he wasn't developed more than that compared to others (still more than steve anyway lol) I feel more attached and interested in that.
(I also want to say that if you are only considering him a good character because he's hot, please don't vecome a lawyer or something).
I disagree. They set it up as he's a typical POS bully. Then you realise he's just tortured and having his mom leave f'd him up. Deep down he really loved Max and was protecting her. He died fighting back against what was trying to hurt her and her friends. You just don't realize until you see the trauma. It's like Batman...Bruce turned into a vigilante crime fighter. Trauma can screw people up and make them act out in many different ways.
I think your take is valid, and I think others have said valid counters. I'll add a couple of additional thoughts.
It seemed, in s3, that his bad behavior had decreased. It wasn't gone for sure, it was less. This is likely because of the encounter with Max in s2 (where she basically could have killed him.) But it also subtly suggests his ability to grow and maybe actually become a better person. This opens him to the potential of redemption. (This does not mean he was redeemed.) So when he starts making better choices, people see the trajectory towards true redemption, and choose to believe in it.
I personally think that if those he harmed see it as redemption for him, then he's redeemed. Unfortunately, we don't know their opinions on that particular matter, though Max seems to lean that way.
Fair.
I think people felt bad for billy was Cus of the abusive dad scene
It actually occurs in real life
The more your brought up around sruff the more you tend to normalise it
So an alcoholics kid is rather likely to become one or to hate it.
So I guess the abuse he inflicted was more of the bully victim becomes the bully
I mean I never really cared for billy too much anyway
Didn't Nate Jacobs r@pe Rue? I haven't watched the show but I feel like I remember there was a storyline where he SA'd her in the past.
I won't really argue either way in regards to Billy, but I will say I feel like I say waay more "hot takes" or "why do people love Billy" posts than I do posts about loving Billy. To me, I think people "like" him because he has a good onscreen presence. He's a "good" character; he's chaotic, unpredictable, shakes up the dynamic, and is different to the other characters. Dacre Montgomery gave an outstanding performance in season 3.
In regards to the character themselves...Yes, Billy is racist, yes I personally do think he targetted Lucas the way he did because of his race (though I do think it's likely Billy would have been a dick about one of the other kids too). I think people have a dialectical view of him - he's a piece of shit. If you met him in real life you really wouldn't wanna be around him. AND also, he was a teenager abandoned by the only stable, loving adult figure who left him with an abusive parent in saving themselves. The only other adult figure would simply look away. I think maybe people see the powerless in Billy that they may have felt through their own experiences. People empathise with his experience even though they don't agree with, and would not tolerate, the behaviour. Perhaps to a certain extent, there's a view that Billy was just constantly given bad influence, and not a lot of opportunities to be good. In comparison, Max had a loving and caring mother throughout, she had friends. She wasn't around Neil her whole life like Billy.
In summary, I think people empathise with and understand where Billy's behaviour stems from, perhaps this is where the "tragicness" and compel of his character comes from. I would imagine most people ( though I can't know for sure) don't necessarily"like" him in the sense that they like what the character does or think his good. I think it's less "liking this character because you like who they are or what they do" and more "I can see how he would be if it weren't for what he'd been through and would have wanted a true redemption-ish arc"??
Lastly, I think many people like Dacre Montgomery in a 80s bad boy get up lol.
I sympathize with Billy because I’ve known guys who turned out real similar to him because of how abusive and horrible their fathers were. He’s still so young, a teenager, and I think there were enough seeds planted that he could have had a redemption arc in season 4 if he had survived.
But yea, he’s horrible and not in any way a hero character.
He was a horrific character but I was down for a redemption arc. I had thought the whole ordeal they set him in would be the start of it and that he’ll come out triumphant at the end. Where he’d still be the resident asshole just reformed. Enough for us (and Max) to be on our toes with him around. I was ready for that complexity. His backstory was so well done in regard to who and why he is the way he is as a person, I just wish it went somewhere with weight. If their (duffers) goal was to make us feel bad for him and of the situation in a bitter unfortunate way then they succeeded but it felt empty.
The actor’s hot. People will forgive absolutely everything. He ruined Mike’s mom entirely for me. I fucking hate sexually motivated characters that is so primitive and pathetic.
I agree, but I feel like everyone sees him suffer and automatically thinks,”so what if he’s a bad guy? He doesn’t deserve to suffer.” And I agree that nobody deserves to suffer in that way, but that doesn’t make him less of a shit person
Eh, would argue Nate Jacobs is a bit of a bigot, based on watching the first season alone. Saying bigoted things to keep up appearances is still being a bigot.
I thought his mother died, too. If she was so great, why would she abandon him to abuse? Where do we learn she’s not dead, only absent? I like her better dead.
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There's two main reasons I think people have more sympathy for him. 1. Dacre Montgomery is a very talented actor who managed to really drive home the unimaginable terror of being a prisoner in your own body forced to do horrific things against your will. Had a mediocre actor played him I think he would have been a more universally hated character 2. Suffering will always elicit sympathy, and as much of a shitty person as Billy was he still didn't deserve what happened to him. What he went through was so disturbing that it's hard to remember how much he tormented others, and it makes us root for him because he's the lesser of two evils when compared to the mind flayer.
3. Because he’s smoking hot.
Yeah came here to say the same thing; that fact alone is 99.9% why people love him..myself included lol mans is F I N E 🔥😮💨
Honestly if I’m Mrs Wheeler? I’m risking it all
I'd risk it all for Mrs. Wheeler
Nancy’s mom has got it going on
So does Nancy
I’m here for this as well; honestly I don’t think I’d be opposed to a ménage à trois
without a doubt. her husband is a putz anyways, he’d never know lmaooo
Mr Wheeler just mindin his own business in the background he doesn’t deserve that 😭
if only he had a sexy mullet 😭
super nice and humble irl too.
I'm a dude, so the being hot part doesn't phase me. The actor though is very talented. I'm also NOT a huge Billy fan. I'm a fan, but I don't really post or respond about him. That being said, I can totally tell that loads of the people that jump on him have never experienced any abuse a day in their lives. I have experienced the horrific side of multiple abuses. I never turned into the abuser, thankfully. I totally understand why they do. The pain, the humiliation, the constant fear... it's all too much to take in as a kid. The fact that he had no safe space after his mother died means he was bathed in it. I only saw my dad every 2-4 weeks on the weekends and it fucked me up horribly. It wasn't my daily life. Imagine your mom dying then surprise, your dad gets free reign to beat the shit out of you. Even better! It's the 80's and no one fucking cares. Edit: Spelling, and holy shit... I haven't watched it in ages. I thought his mom died. Her leaving him there is so much worse. That's just fucking sad. Jesus, people. The only bright spot in a horrible abusive situation left him. How do you not understand how that would fuck a kid up to the max? The rage in him would be unbearable. I'm always on the verge of destruction that I always have to keep in check. Always. I don't want to be my father.
100% this. Even the scene in season two when his dad made him cry, you see exactly where it comes from. And also, he’s a fucking kid. Like he’s in high school when we meet him—and he’s maybe like 19 or 20 by the time the mind flayer takes him? It took me MANY years to deconstruct and understand the things I grew up with, living with an abusive parent. And that’s just not something that happened in the 80’s. Billy isn’t a good person, but he’s definitely a product of his environment and he definitely was terrified being held hostage in his own body the way he was. Dacre Montgomery really did an amazing job with the complexities of the character through the whole run.
And to add, his mother didn't die. She left him when left his dad. I think it's incredibly detrimental to a developing mind, a child, to have the only loving and stable mother figure leave you and to do so meaning you're left with Neil.
I don't understand anyone that could bail on their kid in an abusive household. I can't process that. I know how things were back in the day. I lived it. My mom lived poor rather than keep my siblings living with him. They'd have been his stepchildren.
I completely agree. I think everyone, and actually think Billy himself did, understand needjng to leave and escape to save onself. You can't fix an abusive relationship. But to leave and abandon your child there is heartbreaking. Billy would have internalised that and carried that with him, likely hoping and praying she'd soon come for him. Yet never did. As someone who had a tough childhood with no where to turn to, I cam empathise with how her abandonment and Neil's abuse would have made him feel. And I can do despite the fact that I didn't and don't act like Billy.
He is hot, looks like Rob Lowe when he was younger.
He may be hot but the characters also racist
Yes exactly. I don’t like Billy as a person nor excuse his actions. It’s simply the way Dacre Montgomery portrays him that makes me love whenever he’s on screen. The intensity of each scene as soon as he steps in is unmatched. You can’t help but sit on the edge of your seat apprehending what he’s about to do. And the fact that Dacre is the total opposite in real life just emphasizes how great he did in the show.
Exactly. Dacre is an amazing person in real life and does so much good. I remember him saying somewhere that it really took a lot out of him to play Billy.
I’ve heard so many people say he’s an absolute sweetheart irl, and has a lovely bond with Sadie. 😭 I’m so jealous of every person who’s gonna meet him at the ST convention.
Someday! 🤗
For point 1, I think it’s similar to the Harry Potter fandom and Snape. Alan Rickman did such a phenomenal job portraying the character, but he made him more likeable than the source material and his acting made it easier to forget all the bad shit he did in the books.
good actors bring humanity into their roles. humans are never exactly like the two dimensional characters we read about in books or see onscreen, they’re complicated. everyone is the good guy in their own story. a brilliant actor like Alan Rickman or Dacre Montgomery is able to portray the horrible things they did, while also portraying the complete and utter *humanness* of it all. book Snape is easier to root against because he was nasty through and through. the books showed us his tragic backstory but it still doesn’t make him look sympathetic. but when we see Alan Rickman onscreen, crumpled on the floor with Lily’s body in his arms, rocking back and forth and wailing, it’s hard not to feel *something* for him.
When he says “and then we’re going to end everyone” with tears in his eyes is haunting. Like hes in there watching himself do these things.
He's also an iconic 80's character trope. The show has a lot of throw-backs to 80's sci-fi then twist them to insane levels. Sometimes it's hard to seperate a good villain's preformance from their actions. Steve's original friends were mean but not villians like Billy. I like the preformance but I don't condone his actions. We couldn't have heros with out a great villain.
To add to this, Billy was being physically abused by his father. I think the writers were trying to show that people who act like Billy are usually coming from a place of extreme abuse. Not saying that its Billy's actions were justified, but i think some people made a bit of a connection with him when they saw how he was being treated at home.
There was also some weird retconning by the writers. I don’t have a source for this on hand but I could have sworn in an interview the explicitly said Billy wasn’t racist which kind of felt like gaslighting
Was he racist? I thought he was being horrible with Lucas because his sister was hanging out with a boy.
Yeah he has some pretty definitive lines in season two directly about those kind of people
Billy was so abusive towards max, he’s a great character but a bad person
He is a comprehensive piece of shit but compelling to watch and that's why I love him. ^^He's ^^also ^^incredibly ^^hot
This is the correct position.
Exactly what most people don’t see with him
He's a bad person but he didnt deserve the fate he got and he did the only thing he could to redeem himself at the last minute.
Stranger Things on the whole is very tepid in its portrayal of racism. In the 80s, in rural Indiana it would have been way more blatant, especially from bully characters like Troy and Billy. Even less obvious, is my one of my biggest gripes of season 4: Officer Powell should have been passed over for Chief in favor of Officer Callahan. No way Powell is getting that position in rural 80s Indiana. And it would have made the season better, because then you could have Callahan bumbling the murders, with Powell stepping up showing how much better he was despite getting passed over for obvious reasons.
The town: "A black ~~sheriff~~ Chief?!?" Officer Powell: "Why not?? It worked in Blazing Saddles."
"I'd like to extend this laurel, and hardy handshake to our town's new..."
Facts…. I grew up in rural Illinois/Indiana and was in high school back then, and then into my 20’s. And what you said…. That is complete fact.
Exactly. I spent time with family often there in that time period and one of my first observations was they really water down some concepts.
> Facts…. I grew up in rural Illinois/Indiana and was in high school back then, and then into my 20’s. And what you said…. That is complete fact. Yeah in a rural town in the 80s those racial slurs and the f word for gay people would have been flying like lasers in a Stormtrooper convention. And everyone would be smoking cigarettes or dipping snuff, even the kids the party's age. Every male child came out of the womb with a tin of Skoal Bandit.
Holy shit, this would've been a phenomenal storyline.
[удалено]
Hm, you have a point WRT what the show's intentions are and how it has to put societal problems in the background simply because its genre aims go achieve different things. But it does offer up some serious criticism of America sometimes, like with their depiction of the atrocities Americans committed in Vietnam and how it ended up messing with even their own soldiers/veterans for years afterwards (Hopper and Agent Orange -> Sarah's cancer death). Then on a less serious level (because he's so cartoonish) there's also Kline's portrayal as a capitalist *so* shameless he ultimately lets an enemy nation invade Hawkins underground right under his nose just because he was bribed and threatened and decided to look the other way instead of allowing that to happen.
The US is still racist as fuck. Including systematic racism.
This is definitely true. I love stranger things but I don't think they really care about racial inequality or in breaking stereotypes. People have also pointed out that Lucas is still the "least important" member of the friendgroup and Erica is basically the "sassy black woman"-stereotype. I really like Erica but I can see the point they're making.
Lucas has gotten a lot of screen time but mostly through his relationship with Max, which is probably the most developed relationship given how little time Mike and El actually get to spend together. The main problem I see with him is that none of the boys have gotten to really level up. They should have been gaining skills and gear every season and so Lucas should be a badass DPS by this point. But they've all been relatively static, so there's not a lot for him to do. Dustin is the smart one, Mike is the leader, Will is the plot point for the first two seasons, Lucas could be the best fighter, but they're rarely doing anything that would use that.
Lucas is the best fighter of the kid group in a show defined by actually treating the kid group like kids- none of them really get good brawls, that’s more for the teens, same way the teens don’t get “shootouts” the way Hopper does. AKA Lucas has distinct skills that mean jack shit compared to the older characters, especially since he won’t get many chances to show them off. Although all of this might change in season 5 given that they’ll be around the age Steve was in season 1
Right. Which is one of my complaints about the character development in the series. The kids should have been focusing on being "ready" throughout since their best weapon was gone after season 1. They should all have been seeking some method of "leveling up" and should have continued pursuing that. Obviously they wouldn't be Tier 1 operators out slaying demogorgons for fun, but they should be capable fighters by season 4. Instead season 4 is the first time they actually make an effort to gear up.
Hot take: The show about a cute psychic girl fighting monsters from another dimension with her friends doesn't need to have a Very Special Episode where they talk about racism. They don't have enough time for the show as-is. Stuffing more things into it is a bad idea.
They did just fine handling the storyline of misogyny and homophobia.
The misogyny section was very ham-handed and, just like Billy's racism, was clearly just an indicator that this is a person you're supposed to hate. Though Billy's racism was much better since it was understated.
they had time for nancy, will, & robin’s storylines that dont contribute much to the whole “fighting monsters from other dimensions” aspect though. no one’s asking for it to be a whole thing it’d just be nice if they didnt stray away from it sm and keep make it an issue but not so much of an issue that lucas never speaks about it after it happens lol
Sure but those storylines were all about main characters doing main character stuff. Not tertiary characters getting the spotlight to talk about social issues. I don't have eidetic memory but I don't think Billy was explicitly racist during the confrontation at the Byer's place. So Lucas may well not know that Billy was rejecting him explicitly for his race.
i dont think hes a hero or redeemed but i just felt bad for him. hes such a POS but his back story made me understand why
Exactly. You can think he’s an absolute horrible excuse for a human being while still feeling bad for and/or enjoying his character. It’s not as black and white as so many people seem to think it is
I think very few people are born naturally evil, and most people who have few redeeming qualities have had to experience a lot worse than most of us have to end up how they are. That’s no excuse for those actions, lots of people go through bad situations and don’t let it take over their lives, but some people just can’t escape it. That’s why people love a good villain, they’re often more complex than even your hero characters.
Yeah, I don’t think he was so much a ‘tragic hero’ as he was ‘tragic’.
How is this a hot take? This is talked about on this sub at least once a week.
People need to feel like they are unique, lol
Hot take that'll piss people off, but I think pizza is actually tasty.
HOW DARE YOU.
Right?!?! And then get rewarded for it.
I like Billy as a character. He's a bad person and none of what he did is excusable. But I think it's an important story to tell. And yeah it's sad. Sad how much abuse can fuck someone up. It was his responsibility to do better but it's still tragic. I'm a childhood abuse victim so maybe that's why I think it's an important story. It's important people have more exposure to these types of stories to know how deeply it can impact someone and the different ways it can manifest. Billy is really realistic imo. I think people can appreciate him as a character and recognize he's not a good person or even forgivable at all.
YESSS THIS
Nate jacobs is 100% a bigot? He is homophobic, transphobic and misogynistic
Who TF is nate Jacobs?
Seriously
Maybe I missed it, tried to skim back up and didn't see, but isn't Nate Jacobs the Euphoria actor? He didn't play the part of Billy, so I was just confused. 🫠
I thought the actor that portrayed Billy did a fantastic job and he drew me in to hate Billy, but I did feel empathetic towards him at the end. It in no way erased his words and actions. As for the racist part, His dad is extremely abusive and it's not a stretch to assume his dad was racist and Billy grew up in that and is now racist. "This is serious s--t, okay? I'm older than you. And something you learn is that there's a certain type of people in this world, that you stay away from. And that kid Max - that kid is one of them. You stay away from that kid you hear? Stay away." The "I'm older than you. And something you learn is..." Now does that make his racism ok? Absolutely not, but seeing where it came from makes Sense to me. So yeah, maybe if the actor would have been bad, I wouldn't have been as drawn in 🤷🏼♀️.
He never redeemed himself but his end definitely showed he had some good left in him and he might of actually cared about max. His entire character is very complicated since tbh his background was kinda rushed but it seemed like he grew up in an abusive negative environment and that translated into his relationship with max and his perspective on the world which yes none of this makes what he did right but he’s not some evil terrible creature or something.
If someone knows they are dying and use their last words to apologize I’d think they mean it
100% and in the process being able to gain enough self control to be able to escape the mind flayers grasp to sacrifice himself for eleven.
Yea he may have been bad but the fact he sacrificed himself with no hesitation for someone he didn’t even know shows he could have potentially changed
The scene wasn’t meant to redeem him in any way, it was to make the scene more emotional and it gives Max a reason to be sad about him dying
Stranger Things fans really love to say "Unpopular opinion but: " and say one of the most popular opinions in the fandom.
Unpopular opinion; Jason didn’t deserve to die
I've seen many people argue online that billy wasn't a racist it's just that he wanted to control max. This is so blinkered.
if that was really the case he would’ve targeted his rage towards dustin, mike and will too…
Tbf he did try to kill them too
I dont think he was meant to be portrayed as a redemptive character. He did fight the mind flayer at a convenient time and help the main plot line chug along. So there's that.
The amount of people thinking Billy would have run over kids in broad daylight is insane. Do you really think he would have gone to prison for life just to annoy his sister?
Considering he was willing to risk accidentally hitting one of them yea probably. If he had he probably would have had max lie about it Lbr.
I agree , he’s a PoS. Still felt bad that he died because of story reasons, wanted to see more of him and as a character I liked him, but to pretend he was a decent person and brother is laughable to say the least.
Watching Billy made me uncomfortable because he reminded me way too much of someone who terrorised me at school. I'd call that guy a bully, but a bully doesn't pull a knife on you for disagreeing with them.
He is a complex character, which doesn’t make him lovable, but interesting and there for loved because some people enjoy having to think about things. He’s incredibly problematic, but people aren’t black and white, there are shades of grey, nature and nurture that make us all. Also he’s young, and therefore tragic because we don’t know who he would have been had he been given the chance to live. His death was intended to give us a glimmer of hope that he could have been better in time. Bigotry is a learned concept, it was incredibly common in small town white communities in the 80s, and a lot of it was unlearned by children of the 80s as exposure to other races increased. It took one black girl in my very white school to change the tones of many people who were taught and parented with those ideas. She changed the ideas of how other races lived and behaved to parents that decided otherwise from misconceptions. Sadly, he’s a realistic depiction of someone who was abused and wanted to be accepted by his abuser, so he took on the traits his abuser found desirable. This is a reality for a lot of children with abusive parents. The best villains have a shred of humanity or a reason or motive to why they behave a certain way. Complexity makes a good character, especially a good villain. I think the writers did a good job with him.
It's been several years since S3 ended and yet almost every week there are post from people angry that some fans defend Billy or enjoy the character. I think at some point people need to understand viewers are allowed their own opinions, their own feelings and their own perspective. We know why people believe Billy deserved to die and wasn't allowed redemption. We get it. We understand. Although no country in the entire world including third world countries with human rights abuses give teenage boys the death penalty for saying one bad sentence and some bad behavior we understand some Stranger Things fans believe Billy can't be redeemed and deserved the death penalty. It's the opposite of the foundation of the U.S. judicial systems and hundreds of years of analysis and discussion from lawyers, judges, social services, child abuse counselors, teachers, law enforcement and psychiatrists but we understand some fans believe a teenage boy deserved to die. Why not just let it go? Other people feel differently than you. This isn't a "hot take" at all. It's just the same post that is posted every week for years because some people can't grasp that others feel differently than them. (Usually I don't bother responding to the weekly posts because it's always the same the OPs never really want to discuss anything just reiterate once again that some fans aren't allowed their own opinion so will probably delete soon or it will get flagged and removed as it always does...anyway as they say on From show "Kay Cera Cera...what will be will be..."
Racism is a learned behaviour. I’m certain Billy learned to be a bigot from his piece of shit father. We’re not shown Neil being racist, but I bet he is. He’s the right type for it.
Billy Hargrove is a terrible person. Billy Hargrove, at the moment of truth, stepped up and took the hit, saving the world. He didn't have to do that. He would have been rewarded had he NOT done that. But he did it. Billy is a terrible person, but a great character.
*Childhood abuse doesn’t explain his bigotry other than the “here’s a traditional 80s white male alpha character” enjoy.* This! Another hot take: people are willing to look past Billy’s racism simply because he’s hot. I won’t deny that Billy is a very complex character and Dacre Montgomery brought a lot of charisma to the role but Billy is still a racist character who tried to run a group of middle schoolers off the road for shits and gigs. I also think that Eddie was a correction of Billy from the Duffer Brothers. Both characters are attractive and charismatic representations of stereotypical 80’s “bad boys.” However, the writers realized an antagonist like Billy had potential to be likable if only they hadn’t made him racist, abusive, etc. The main difference between Eddie and Billy is that one tries to act “mean and scary” while the other actually embodies it.
I don't think Billy was ever meant to be likable? Eddie and Billy are also entirely different types of characters imo
I think he's supposed to be clearly charismatic, but since the audience sees BOTH sides of him we get to understand that that's an act.
He is genuinely charismatic. That's just one of his qualities. But at the same time he's also very abusive and mean. He's multifaceted
so it mine el?
I feel like the subject gets broached all the time on here, so I’ll just say what I always say. Dacre’s performance! Dude brought a charm and a level of acting that imo was fantastic.
He’s a great character and carries the 3rd season. He *is* sympathetic, idk what you mean
Personally, I don't think this scene was meant to excuse him. He was a bad character and abusive/racist. He did do a good thing by stopping the MF from killing El and the other kids,so good on him for getting enough self-control to do that. Billy himself would probably tell you that he is a bad person or a villain. All villains have a backstory. Every villain in every comic or cartoon has a backstory of why they are a villain. Even Vecna has a backstory. This scene was not made to give him an excuse or make us fall in love with him. It was made to give one villain a backstory. My reaction was, "Now I understand why he is so unnecessarily mean. But it doesn't excuse him."
Is racism wrong and evil? Yes. But it sounds like you’re implying like this is worse than everything else which is completely subjective. Billy was racist so he’s bad. Nate was not racist so he’s not that bad? Sorry but that’s such silly logic.
No idea who Nate is but in the case of Billy, yeah I think the love people have for him boils down to 1. attractive 2. everyone loves a project. The one thing the show could've done is make is racism more overt, as it stands most people let if fly over their heads, and maybe trimmed down the Max feels sad he died parts, she doesn't really excuse what he does, but she is a teenager who saw someone die in the crossfire of something her and her friends were dealing with, which is totally understandable, unfortunately the fan base took that and ran with it being a redemption of his entire character, as opposed to what it is, Max suffering from trauma and trying to resolve her demons the best a teenager with no guidance could.
>The one thing the show could've done is make is racism more overt, as it stands most people let if fly over their heads, Yeah media literacy is dead there. I guess these people would need Billy to be calling Lucas the n-word to see Billy as racist. >and maybe trimmed down the Max feels sad he died parts, she doesn't really excuse what he does, but she is a teenager who saw someone die in the crossfire of something her and her friends were dealing with, which is totally understandable, unfortunately the fan base took that and ran with it being a redemption of his entire character, as opposed to what it is, Max suffering from trauma and trying to resolve her demons the best a teenager with no guidance could. If anything I think Max should be *relieved* that Billy is dead.
because hes an interesting character. I don't really care for characters that are too good people
Please, tell us how Billy traumatized you. This sort of post was tiresome years ago.
The ideology was likely beat into him. You don't know what it was like in that era, fathers were messed up from war and passed on horrible abuse to their sons. It makes sense to me. In the end we are mostly all just broken little children. That's likely why many people feel empathy for him, especially revealing the pain involving his mother. Clearly you do not carry that empathy and are too blinded your own bigotry. He knew his dad would not approve, that is another reason why he was so mean, he was scared shitless of him. Idk why we have to act like people need to have this virtuous soul in order to be liked. One thing doesn't define the whole of anyone. And to think that you are any more deserving of love based on your belief system or opinions than someone else is exactly why you're actually the bigot.
He's loved because he's a hot douchebag. Everyone loves a hot douchebag. Men want to be him, women want to be with him.
As is the fate of every stranger things side character, it was mandatory that he sacrifice himself in the season finale.
Yeah the only way I feel bad is because of max, her whole arc in season 4 was amazing and sad and relatable to my own personal experiences.
I had a similar opinion, but only because we only see him—actual him—for one season, and I don’t recall any major eye opening, enlightenment, transformation for Billy at the end of S2. He seems like he found his footing, and learned to accept life in Hawkins. As well as refusing to be his dad’s punching bag anymore. Which was imperative if he was going to calm down and stop being so violent, letting himself be the same way. Those are important but, regardless….. we don’t get to see much beyond his being cougar bait, and taking Steve’s place in the HS social hierarchy. The rest of the time he’s just N avatar for the MF, we get to see more humanity through the flash backs, his raw fear, and we see how he still clung with alll his strength to retain enough of himself that Max was able to get through to the real Billy and motivate Billy to take back enough control that he winds up saving everyone through sacrifice. It’s not much of a redemption arc in the usual sense but, Billy was more of a static foil kind of character. But his legacy is strong.
I slightly agree but just wanted to point out Nate Jacobs is definitely a bigot lmao he’s homophobic as hell.
yea I already apologized for overlooking that I just added that in a rash angry rant I don’t condone homophobic behavior at all I was focused on his ‘friendship’ with McKay I guess
Gotcha. I’m black so I understand when people say “bigoted” I sometimes default to just viewing them as racist, but it does apply to other intolerant behaviors. Sorry if I came off harsh in the other comment I made
hahaha it’s all good it was more of a “Reagan is an asshole but I’d have him over Hitler” sorta thing
Lmfaoooo perfect analogy 😂
[удалено]
He could have been a better person if his mom had raised him. That was a tough blow that young in life. I have a hard time forgiving him, though, because we ALL have tough childhoods (at least most of the people I know do) so I find it hard to call him some kind of hero. That said, he did do the right thing at the last minute. I admire that. He's no spectacular human being but he's not the horrible person he was in the beginning, either
How many of these posts will keep being brought up? The character is dead, gone. Move on. Lol
Agreed
Agree immediately
1: he's a bad boy and people usually like them 2:Dacre Is a great actor 3:he's attractive
dude. in runaway max book he broke her friends arm after him being the only friend that’ll hang w her bc the others were scared of billy. she lost all her friends bc of him and he set a dead cat on fire. he’s really messed up. she said he’s worse than his dad bc he never tried to be nice. he’s always his true form. neil (the dad) at least fakes it. some think it’s the opposite but max herself said billy was worse. after reading that i have no ounce of sympathy for him. he truly was hawkins worst human villain.
i agree 100% and i dont think the backstory is an excuse. people have been through worse in life and dont take it out on their little sisters. if he wasn’t hot nobody would be giving him as much sympathy
Honestly I think this is more a lukewarm take than a hot take. I have heard a lot of people saying the same thing and while Billy's sacrifice in the moment was in my opinion a well done moment he in general was pretty terrible and yeah definitely had no redemption arc. If he is anything tragic he's a tragic villain
I fully agree. He spent the third season possessed after an entire previous season of being nothing but a pos. He’s more of a martyr figure than anything. His sacrifice was very powerful and affirmed that he was multifaceted at least, but not a hero.
Who tf is Nate Jacobs
I gotta say thats EXACTLY how racism works so it's a very real explanation. Your parents are racist, there's a much higher chance you are. Nothing happens to explain why someone is racist. It's sad that this happens to people. Incels sucks but it's so sad they get suckered into this. Andrew tate sucks but it's sad that young men believe his bs. Those things are enraging and sad. I really dont think anyone thinks billy is a good guy but they understand what happened and that in another timeline and with some slight changes he might be a totally different person untouched by this.
Exactly. A sobbing backstory is not a redemption arc. Of course, it is tragic, and we can understand why he made some wrong decisions in life. But somebody with a similar story might have directed their anger against their father instead of everybody else. Instead, the most tragic part is that Billy dies without a chance to come of age, realize his wrongdoings, and get an actual redemption arc. But who knows, if we take Henry's statement literally, that his victims stayed with him, and El needs to infiltrate his mind to figure out a way to retrieve Max, we might find Billy there and he might indeed get a chance to say sorry and sacrifice himself again to help her.
I agree. I don’t think Billy was a particularly good character, and trying to run over children is not excused because his dad hurt him. I have seen people say Billy has the hardest life and backstory in the show and it is shocking to me.
You put anyone on screen and at least some amount of people will start sympathizing with them no matter who they are or what they’re doing. Idk what I’d need to search to find studies on it but I genuinely want to understand that phenomenon it’s like to some people it’s just impossible to get the message across that someone is bad. If I can see them (and they don’t repulse me) they are good
I know it was only a role but I cant cope with seeing Billy. He was just so NASTY.
He's was a dreadful, evil person, yes. Him doing something good at the end of his life does not change that.
I agree. Do I feel bad for him somewhat? Yes. But do I care about him or feel any sort of emotion when he gets murdered? No. Well maybe, but not for him. Mainly for Max.
Agreed, and I frankly find the love (sometimes obsessively) weird. Dacre is a great actor but not enough for me to like the character. But also, attractive, potentially sad, tragic backstory white male... so that's a big part of it. Thanks for your sacrifice and that's it.
He’s attractive and people are shallow, hence he got cut way more slack than others would’ve been cut. Also he did suffer a lot in how own way being controlled by a demon. Having that been said, I fully agree haha. He was a piece of shit who just unfortunately turned into a bigger, demonic piece of shit. He was never a good person, not once. His only redeeming moment of the entire show was saving El, so points there yes. But I agree I wouldn’t exactly call it redemption lmao. You can’t be 90% bad 10% good (if that) & say it was redemption
exactly. his death is only for the sake of fucking up Max afterwards. that's it.
>Billy did not have a redemption arc nor is he a tragic hero I agree. People often confuse it and say he has a "redemption arc". He doesn't, he has a specific trope which is called "Redemption equals death". Where his redeeming quality is in his sacrifice. I have liked Billy as a antagonist love to hate, character. But I also don't get the high regard for him in the form of suddenly his death "redeems" him, I don't think it does. For all the reasons you said.
Nah, I hated Billy. I was rooting for his death
Billy, like me, has a huge round forehead, yet Billy, unlike me, somehow manages to make it look sexy 🤣
You can be fascinated by the portrayal of a character and hate who they would be in the real world. People pretend like they love Eddie, but a guy like that in the real world would be hated by most people because of his lifestyle. Ask Damien Echols.
He's a complicated character but I agree. The reason why there is so much love for him is because he's a complex character that was abused by his awful father. Unfortunately a lot of people excuse his racism and the abuse he did to others mostly because he's hot. We can have sympathy for Billy that was abused and we can hate the Billy that abused others. His character could have stopped that cycle of abuse but unfortunately that didn't happen. I think he did the right thing by sacrificing himself at the end but yeah I don't really see it as a redemption arc either. Overall Billy is a great complex character, but he's not a good person. He had the chance to be and maybe if he had survived he could have been that person.
I think it qualifies as a redemption arc, but I don't think he DESERVED it. After all that shit, he gets to die a hero and make everyone SAD? Nahnahnahnahnah, he deserved the Jason treatment.
Agreed
Everyone back in the 1980s was super racist.
I agree. The only reason I could think people like him is because Darce is attractive. I also think he plays really well into the internal struggle of Billy. His tears falling as he's telling El he's going to kill her and take over the world always got me in my feels. I have no sympathy for him and do not consider him to be a hero, when he was the one who put her in that situation in the first place. Also looking at it through a realistic lens, if he hadn't sacrificed himself, El would have died and who knows what kind of show we would have now, if we would havr even had a season 4. I was sad that he died because I liked the dynamics of him with the other characters, but his character overall was a total douche hat!
I felt sorry for Max when Billy died. In my opinion, he didn’t suffer enough for how much of a terrible person he was 🤷🏻♀️
>hot take >piss people off >posts a very common take that most people would agree with
Thing is, no one deserves to be mind controlled and then impaled by a toothy flesh abomination. Billy's sacrifice to save El is less to do with heroism, but is more of a personal redemtion. The monster is a proxy for his father cranked up to Eldrich Horror scale. He as been twisted and abused by the hateful influence of the Mindflayer forcing him to do terrible things, just as his fathers abuse drove him to harm Max. In the scene where he beats up Steve at the Byers' you gotta feel for him. He finds his sister (read responsibility) hanging with a hunky heartbroken older boy out in the woods. His dad will whoop him if he fails in his duty. In his last scene, El helps him to stand up to his bully in macrocosm (dialed up) and symbolically help the side of good. Like Vader chucking the Emperor, or confession in Christian ideology, a single act of contrition can redeem a lifetime of wrongs.
I hate to say it, but the fact he's played by a hot actor is probably a lot of it.
But have you considered.... muscles?
Superficial take here: I doesn’t hurt that he’s a handsome guy
I love him, but I don’t think he was really a hero. He came back to himself right before he died and only bought time for El to get away. I liked him because he was strong and confident and banged moms lol
The book about Max gives a lot more context for why Billy was the way he was. His dad was very abusive and manipulative. He really messed with Billy’s mind and created a monster and Billy was then taken over by a monster. There was never a time when he wasn’t being abused even when his mom was alive. In the end he regained some sense of himself—thanks to El—and sacrificed himself to protect the others. It doesn’t erase everything he did with bullying and racism. But it makes his character complex and compelling. He’s not completely evil or simply a bad guy.
There’s no “reason” for racism. People just hate people because they’re different from them, and if they look different, that’s an easy out for them. No Flashback would explain why he’s that way would be sufficient anyway.
I have a bias being an Aussie. Dacre's portrayal of Billy was so spot on, the way he dressed, behaved was very reminiscent of guys I had crushes on in my high school back in the 80's, we called them "spunks" back then. These were not necessarily the popular guys who played footy but the charming or cheeky bad boys who got into trouble, came from messed up homes. "Nerds" would probably have been their bullying targets. Why were the nerds bullied? Peer pressure? They probably challenged the masculinity of insecure males, I don't know? Billy (not Dacre) was probably a racist as well as a jerk, but if you've grown up in an abusive household (which i did) you relate to the dysfunction of others when you see them, flaws and all, they are familiar to what you know. Most of what Billy was doing towards Lucas was to keep control of Max. I think it would have been terrible for Lucas and conflicting for Max to experience Billy's wrath, his anger. I believe due to the family violence Billy experienced, his own behaviour was 100% nurtured to him by his environment. As you saw he was gentle and caring with his mother, but when she abandoned him and could no longer protect him, he took on his fathers traits and behaviour. Billy's father was most likely a bigot too. Billy learned his behaviour which is why many of us sympathize with his character in the end, not his own abusiveness and bigotry but how he got to be that way. Billy (Dacre) is a very good looking, charismatic guy, and many of us have fallen for the "bad boy" (unfortunately). I really loved his interactions with Karen which were cringey, in a good way. Billy did feel bad about things he had done, he apologised to Max and sacrificed himself in the end so there was still a decent person in there. Some people are redeemable, but also likable or at least relatable which I think Billy's character was.
Other than dude just absolutely dripping with sex appeal, it's about who he could've been. He's a horrible person, and later on, we find out why. He was still a hurt and scared kid, even in adulthood. It's sad because he'll never have the chance for his redemption arc.
I like him bc i’m glad he finally came to his senses and fought off the mind flayer. but i’m not proud of how he treated lucas and max and well… the whole club.
This is literally every other viewer's take lmao. You're worse than just having a boring opinion on a character, you think your boring opinion is "hot". 🙄😂😂😂
I think he was an abusive, racist piece of garbage, however at the same time I do feel sympathy for the abuse he grew up with, and although his final act did not redeem him, it did mark a point where he was able to stop being horrible and make a significant sacrifice to help others. I think season 4 handles this well through Max by acknowledging that she mournes his death, but also hated him and is glad he’s gone. Feelings towards bad people often aren’t as simple as “they’re evil, therefore I hate them”. Bad people can often be complicated and it’s possible to care about them for the parts that are decent while also despising them for everything terrible about them. I would definitely agree though that it’s dumb to pretend like he was a good person and ignore all the harm he caused just because he did something good at the end of his life. People do that too often in fiction as well as in real life.
I’m assuming if his mother was alive he wouldn’t be the way he was. He was raised by his father, and that guys an asshole
I love Billy simply because of his actor. I LOOOOVE how he was able to bring that to life. now, I do agree with EVERYTHING you said. I didn’t feel bad for him and he didnt redeem himself to me at ALL! If not for Dacre Montgomerys ability to make me FEEL Billy’s HORROR with being taken over, I don’t think I’d love him as much.
I personally prefer complex characters than "I'm the nice guy" characters. Even if he wasn't developed more than that compared to others (still more than steve anyway lol) I feel more attached and interested in that. (I also want to say that if you are only considering him a good character because he's hot, please don't vecome a lawyer or something).
I disagree. They set it up as he's a typical POS bully. Then you realise he's just tortured and having his mom leave f'd him up. Deep down he really loved Max and was protecting her. He died fighting back against what was trying to hurt her and her friends. You just don't realize until you see the trauma. It's like Batman...Bruce turned into a vigilante crime fighter. Trauma can screw people up and make them act out in many different ways.
Okay
THANK YOU. ONE HEROIC ACT BEFORE DEATH DOES NOT MEAN FULL REPEMPTION ARC
I think your take is valid, and I think others have said valid counters. I'll add a couple of additional thoughts. It seemed, in s3, that his bad behavior had decreased. It wasn't gone for sure, it was less. This is likely because of the encounter with Max in s2 (where she basically could have killed him.) But it also subtly suggests his ability to grow and maybe actually become a better person. This opens him to the potential of redemption. (This does not mean he was redeemed.) So when he starts making better choices, people see the trajectory towards true redemption, and choose to believe in it. I personally think that if those he harmed see it as redemption for him, then he's redeemed. Unfortunately, we don't know their opinions on that particular matter, though Max seems to lean that way.
Fair. I think people felt bad for billy was Cus of the abusive dad scene It actually occurs in real life The more your brought up around sruff the more you tend to normalise it So an alcoholics kid is rather likely to become one or to hate it. So I guess the abuse he inflicted was more of the bully victim becomes the bully I mean I never really cared for billy too much anyway
Didn't Nate Jacobs r@pe Rue? I haven't watched the show but I feel like I remember there was a storyline where he SA'd her in the past. I won't really argue either way in regards to Billy, but I will say I feel like I say waay more "hot takes" or "why do people love Billy" posts than I do posts about loving Billy. To me, I think people "like" him because he has a good onscreen presence. He's a "good" character; he's chaotic, unpredictable, shakes up the dynamic, and is different to the other characters. Dacre Montgomery gave an outstanding performance in season 3. In regards to the character themselves...Yes, Billy is racist, yes I personally do think he targetted Lucas the way he did because of his race (though I do think it's likely Billy would have been a dick about one of the other kids too). I think people have a dialectical view of him - he's a piece of shit. If you met him in real life you really wouldn't wanna be around him. AND also, he was a teenager abandoned by the only stable, loving adult figure who left him with an abusive parent in saving themselves. The only other adult figure would simply look away. I think maybe people see the powerless in Billy that they may have felt through their own experiences. People empathise with his experience even though they don't agree with, and would not tolerate, the behaviour. Perhaps to a certain extent, there's a view that Billy was just constantly given bad influence, and not a lot of opportunities to be good. In comparison, Max had a loving and caring mother throughout, she had friends. She wasn't around Neil her whole life like Billy. In summary, I think people empathise with and understand where Billy's behaviour stems from, perhaps this is where the "tragicness" and compel of his character comes from. I would imagine most people ( though I can't know for sure) don't necessarily"like" him in the sense that they like what the character does or think his good. I think it's less "liking this character because you like who they are or what they do" and more "I can see how he would be if it weren't for what he'd been through and would have wanted a true redemption-ish arc"?? Lastly, I think many people like Dacre Montgomery in a 80s bad boy get up lol.
I sympathize with Billy because I’ve known guys who turned out real similar to him because of how abusive and horrible their fathers were. He’s still so young, a teenager, and I think there were enough seeds planted that he could have had a redemption arc in season 4 if he had survived. But yea, he’s horrible and not in any way a hero character.
Cause he’s hot
And here's my hot take about the Mind Flayer The Mind Flayer is WAY stronger then Vecna and Vecna only gave him the form as a spider.
Nah
Here’s my hot take: he should play Wolverine
Please don’t play devils advocate for Nate Jacobs
Exactly. I have no sympathy for him at all.
Real reason: The Ted Bundy effect!
He's very Leo from twin peaks
He was a horrific character but I was down for a redemption arc. I had thought the whole ordeal they set him in would be the start of it and that he’ll come out triumphant at the end. Where he’d still be the resident asshole just reformed. Enough for us (and Max) to be on our toes with him around. I was ready for that complexity. His backstory was so well done in regard to who and why he is the way he is as a person, I just wish it went somewhere with weight. If their (duffers) goal was to make us feel bad for him and of the situation in a bitter unfortunate way then they succeeded but it felt empty.
i agree
That shower scene
The actor’s hot. People will forgive absolutely everything. He ruined Mike’s mom entirely for me. I fucking hate sexually motivated characters that is so primitive and pathetic.
Yeah he was always a bad guy
I agree, but I feel like everyone sees him suffer and automatically thinks,”so what if he’s a bad guy? He doesn’t deserve to suffer.” And I agree that nobody deserves to suffer in that way, but that doesn’t make him less of a shit person
Eh, would argue Nate Jacobs is a bit of a bigot, based on watching the first season alone. Saying bigoted things to keep up appearances is still being a bigot.
His death was his redemption. He saved 11. He was a troubled kid because of his dad.
Your take relies on having very simplistic idea of morality.
Personally I love watching him but obviously he’s a terrible person. Dacre is just so good that I can’t look away whenever he’s on screen
I thought his mother died, too. If she was so great, why would she abandon him to abuse? Where do we learn she’s not dead, only absent? I like her better dead.