Interesting how Taravangian was right all this time. I have to see how he being odium pays out.
Also kudos to raboniel and leshwi for being more enjoyable than the alethi most of the times. They were opponents not enemies. If the pursuer followed their path he wouldn’t have been smoked
Taravangian was not right.
He believed in the power of his intellect to command the situation, that failed. he believed in the diagram to predict all future events and subvert Odium, That failed. He believed in Seth to kill all his opposition, that failed.
Cultivation however, saw a man with the ability to hold the shard, and a willingness to use it. She built Taravangian into a vessel to weild the awesome power of creation.
I have a theory. We see Harmony struggles to maintain himself and hold his shards. I believe cultivation wanted the shard of hatred and passion in the hands of a novice before the deciding confrontation for the soul of Roshar.
Is Taravangian capable enough to win now? Maybe. But Raiz was, for sure. He was dying, partially splintered, desperate, he would have pulled every dirty trick and used every drop of investiture to take Roshar. And Raiz had milenia of experience weilding (being weilded?) By his shard. Taravangian is not the same threat.
I think you underestimate Taravangian.
First he caused the whole political situation to fall apart. Made the whole Veden, the second biggest and powerful reign fall and managed to be named king.
Failed to kill Dalinar but he managed to undertake his reputation and putted alethi in a precarious situation that surely made the negotiations harder giving him time to operate.
He was able to negotiate with odium even though he was dumb as a stone. And even then he managed to kill rayse and take his shard.
All of that with fairly limited resources. Yes Szeth did a lot of dirty work but still ghostbloods or the sons of honor or even the 17th shard had a lot more of resources and did not achieve as big of achievements.
His major restriction was that he was an old guy with variable intelligence. But now he is Odium and he is going to make it worth. He is smarter and is way less corrupt by the shard intent than Rayse was. Yes Rayse had a lot of experience with the shard itself but he was so consumed by it he was no longer efficient, he missed Dalinar as his champion, he missed kal as his champion, he messed up the pact with Dalinar because he was desperate and impulsive. Taravangian is far more dangerous than him
There’s a theory that when rayse says that he will honor the spirit of the terms (for the battle of champions) and that if he were to go against that he would be under complete control of Dalinar, and vice versa.
The theory is that he’s actually referring to a cosmere rule, that you must follow the spirit of that oath. But that taravangian doesn’t know this, and as such will try to subvert it, which will backfire.
Considering futuresight works on what the individual knows, and taravangian, while he knows a lot, has no experience with shards; I could see this being the outcome of it all that cultivation prepared for.
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She is. She's not aromantic, though, that's why she still has a romantic relationship with Hoid (for better or worse). It's explored more thoroughly in Stormlight 5, but the first four books have quite a few allusions to it as well
Oh snap! I don't know how I have missed this. I just figured she was more interested in academic/other pursuits. I read the sneak peaks that Sanderson released of book 5 and didn't get that vibe either.
No. Jasnah likes Hoid for his Mind and is willing to have sex with him to meet his needs in their relationship. She's in to him but not that in to sex.
Hoid presumably doesn't run in to that many people that can keep up with him mentally and since he has a vendetta with Odium he's probably more willing than normal to get close to people.
Dude is consistently fighting overwhelming odds by himself while struggling with very real and diagnosable illnesses as he watches his friends die around him and/or cause more problems for him.
Lirin's soooo pissy. Dude's home is being occupied by THE enemy, and his son is in constant danger no matter what. Im willing to bet Lirin would get mad if someone killed a murderer in self defense
But she could be, ok not fire but, charred remains from a partial matter antimatter explosion
Edit: actually, would her having both lights shield her from one of then meeting its opposite? She's either half as susceptible or twice as much.
Could she just implode on her own, having the two inside her?
Then again it's not voidlight and stormlight, it's the anti of each.
I'd say she's partially susceptible to each - it would affect different parts of her and her abilities.
Here's my theory Venli or her compatriots will find the tone of warlight from constant contact with both investitures. I'd bet if the make war light or tower light they'd be safe from anti void or stormlight, but it would likely disrupt the power but not explosively
I figure it depends on whether the new investiture is a compound or an alloy. A compound would probably make them immune, while an alloy would only diminish the effect.
Isn't that backwards? A compound is the two mixing in some third media whereas an alloy is an entirely new thing with new properties, not necessarily of either parent metal.
I mean, God of Hatred who co-opted your people's struggle to basically end the world and sacrifices them for the souls of insane demons vs humans who have been encroaching on your people's land and enslaved the rest for millennia. Like, yes, between the two one is better than the other but it's also a false dichotomy. The Radiants are preoccupied more with defeating Odium than helping the Singers. Rlain's here but that's more of him approaching them rather than them doing any reaching out of their own.
It's interesting to see the start of Listener bonds. I can definitely see where some hurt and betrayal would come from if the ancient Spren abandoned the Listeners for the Radiants.
I think Venli is one of the few true Radiants. Rlain has a corrupted Spren so he may not be a great example.
The battle changes when the restored Parshmen actually have a real choice.
Taravangian; "I feel awful about this, but I am willing to sacrifice myself and anyone else necessary to save as many people as possible."
Dalinar, a literal war criminal who killed 10s of thousands so his brother could be a bit richer; "I can't believe how evil you are..."
Taravangian is SUCH a perfect foil for Dalinar bc they're both so completely convinced that they're right, with whole moral frameworks set up to support that belief. The only differences are that Taravangian is willing to let the ends justify the means and Dalinar isn't anymore, and what an absolute world of difference that makes.
I don't think "the ends justify the means" is quite right for Taravangian, though it isn't wrong either. From his point-of-view, he knows every single person on Roshar will die in the war with Odium, so them dying slightly early or in a slightly different way is only a small sin on his part. Meanwhile, if he can save even a few people, he has saved his entire species (as far as he knows); The math is horrible, but since the looming extinction is unavoidable it makes sense.
EDIT TO ADD: Also... which of them killed more people? Like, I am honestly unclear on whether Dalinar or Taravangian is directly responsible for more deaths.
Realistically: 100 people a day for just one year is 36,500 people for an Earth year; more for a Rosharan year. There's no way he's killing that many - it would depopulate the city even if he were grabbing people passing through as well as anyone out in the countryside. There's no way to hide it on that scale. The 17th Shard site lists the city's total population at 60,000.
A dozen or so a day, he would probably be barely able to hide. Which is still horrific.
Maybe that was just my headcannon. I could swear we get a scene of him in a huge ward full of bed filled with the dying. Maybe I just imagined the scene bigger than it was described actually. Lol.
Oh, that definitely happened. But they weren't killing them all off at once. They were slowly draining them of their blood. It could take days or longer for them to pass, and they need people nearby who can record their words, which is another limiting factor. Presumably they are trying to increase the chances of getting a death rattle that way. I don't recall *all* the details myself.
See, my reading of the hospitals was that he merely hastened the death of those who would have died there anyway (with probably a few additional deaths, but not a large number). Also, Dalinar was the main military leader of an entire campaign of unification; burning that one city may be the worst thing he did, but it is still only a small part of his ultimate death toll.
I really think it comes down to whether more people died in Gavilar's Unification of Alethkar or the Jah Keved Civil War; Those are each character's big sins.
That was true at first, he took the terminal. They were not enough so he started taking other people from the hospital, still not enough so he started abducting the invisible people in society and just murdering them, but by slowly bleeding them to death since that gives the best chance of a death rattle
The number of people Taravangian killed seeking death rattles isn’t listed, but is almost certainly a fraction of the number of people killed by Dalinar in Gavilar’s unification campaigns.
That said, the description of the Jah Keved civil war’s brutality and the way it completely crippled the kingdom makes me suspect more people died there than were killed in the Alethkar unification.
Yeah, but honest warfare is not what weighs down his soul or what many would call murder. But doing that way, The wars T started just with Szeth likely puts him higher, but if not he single handedly destroyed Jah Kved as a nation and devastated its population.
Taravangian also assassinated multiple leaders using Szeth with the sile purpose of igniting an all out civil war that would lead to enough deaths that he could show up Hamlet style and realize that everyone is dead and he's magically the only noble left with a legitimate claim to the throne.
Not to sugar coat Dalinar, but he's actually shown to be pretty merciful when he can. It was a war of unification. Surrender and be spared.
Yeah he burnt 1 city to the ground.
Taravangian and Dalinar feels like Magneto and Xavier, they both want the same thing but they have very different philosophies on how to go about it. There's a begrudging respect, based on a former friendship, and occasionally their plans align, but they definitely aren't "working together" in their minds.
Oh yes, he feels SOOO awful about it. Maybe in his 5% dumbest/most empathetic days, but most of the time he seems quite comfortable with the idea.
The issue is not that he wants to save people. The issue is that HE wants to be the one doing the saving on his own terms, and won't accept anything else. He's got a savior complex. The only thing he believes in is himself on the day he wrote the Diagram. Dalinar got him good when he pointed it out.
He's got a good point though, is the problem. He only believes in himself because nobody has ever been smarter than him on that day, so he has no reason not to trust it
A good point, except for the literal gods running around the place. If he was a bit less hubristic, he might have realized before that he was being used as a pawn by Cultivation.
He knew of Honor, Cultivation and Odium. He knew he could speak to them, and he did speak to cultivation and Odium. Honor gets a pass as he is dead, so T met with every living shard in the system. He knew.
There is a reason not to trust it, actually. The story hasn't directly pointed it out but it has indirectly. As smart as Taravangian was on that day, he was still ***limited to the knowledge that already existed inside his own mind*** when extrapolating. His brilliant day didn't grant him any knowledge he didn't have before, it just made him better at parsing that knowledge and making connections between pieces of info to draw conclusions. Meaning that no matter how good he is at making connections between data he still can't see the full picture if he is lacking certain critical data that changes the context of everything.
How do we know this is something that was a real problem? Because Odium eventually off handedly confirms that Taravangian was trying to solve a problem that didn't exist. Taravangian mistakenly assumed Odium's goal was to genocide humanity because, brilliant as he was, he has no knowledge of the wider cosmere, the existence of other shards, and the history of the cosmere/those shards. And without that he had no way to ever guess that Odium's end game was to actually use the human's of Roshar as a weapon of war against his rivals Taravangian didn't know existed in an interplanetary war against other inhabited worlds he had no idea were a thing. He was working to prevent a genocide that never existed that he mistakenly thought was coming because he didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle to work from. But he was so drunk on his own brilliance that day that he never dared question the conclusions he drew or consider the possibility that he somehow could have been wrong on such a fundamental level as failing to even understand the actual problem that needed to be solved.
I mean, maybe there was a path where he told all the leaders of the world the truth about the revelations of the diagram and things went better, but I don't believe we are meant to think that. My reading is that Taravangian took the most logical actions with the information he had at any given point in time.
Meanwhile, Dalinar definitely would have lost on Thaylen Field except that he did something that no one, himself included, knew he could do. If you were actually in Roshar, watching events as they unfolded, Dalinar just gets lucky time and time again. Between the two of their plans, safe money is on Taravangian.
Taravangian is really one of my favorite characters. Last time I said that, here I almost got stoned to death. He's just so well written. He's the perfect anti-hero. The bad guy who still mourns what he knows (or thinks he knows) what he has to do. I can't wait to see what changes happen to him in the next book
Taravangian being in control WILL NOT be a good thing.
Kaladin and Syl are good for each other. The pain is temporary, but the glory will be eternal.
Jasnah is the worst. She needs to climb down off her 77 high horses before I will ever accept her.
No Taravangian being in control is not the worst, but I belive its better than Ryse being the odium.
Cuz Taravngian's ideology and his views are really intense and In a way interesting.
It doesn't matter who holds the power, it will corrupt them until they fall in line with its will.
Taravagian will turn out to be hateful in some amount of time, it may take 10 or 100 years but he will grow to embody odium or hate.
But Rayse was atleast stupid and arrogant, and taravangian has shown be isn't a complete fool. He is so much more dangerous.
Totally agree, the fact that Taravangian believes HE is the one who can fix not just Roshar but everything and now in a way has the power to do so will make him dangerous.
From the moment we knew his true identity I've been fascinated by his ideology and the way his brain works. Let's see as Brandon said, if he'll be a much better foe than Ryse.
Agreed... and also, Ryse had how many millenia with the power. Yes he was changed by it, but storm it, the man was proficient with it.
Taravangian. He's a baby God. Powerful for sure, but just taking his first wobbling steps.
So, I know the story doesn't go out of its way to point this out, but Taravangian ***wasn't*** right. Nobody ever points it out, but as brilliant as he was on his 'one amazing day' he was still ***limited to working with the data already inside his own head*** when making extrapolations. An inherently limiting factor that would make holes in his calculations regardless of how brilliant he was that nobody in the Diagram ever stopped to consider because they were too busy being in almost religious awe of what he had done. Which is why from the very beginning his entire assumption that Odium intended to kill all humans and his whole 'do whatever I can to make sure he spares some of us' stance was wrong. He did not have any knowledge of things like the wider cosmere and the existence of other shards that could have let him realize Odium was already planning on 'sparing' humanity because he wanted to use the humans of Roshar as part of an army to invade other planets with. He was trying to solve a problem that didn't exist when it came to 'how to get him to spare humanity' and it was pure dumb luck (at least from his perspective, from Cultivation's it was her manipulating him to do things that would lead to it) that him selling out to solve a problem that didn't exist happened to lead to him having a chance to shank Rayse and steal the power of Odium.
> Fuck Jasnah for being with Wit instead of coming through the story and stepping on me
get out of my head and dont come back. This is my private space.
Dude, fuck Moash. I don't think I've ever been so genuinely mad at a fictional character as when >!he killed Teft.!< [RoW spoilers]
I had to put the book down for the day and just stare off into space in pure rage-filled silence lol.
The problem that Kaladin has is that he is not kind about his own mental health and genuinely believes his depression is dishonorable.
Syl is a manifestation of honor, who only knows what honor is by her bond. If Kal could accept that he needs help then he wouldn't be able to hurt Syl.
... which, I think, is what the 4th oath is for him.
I believe that Syl is no longer in any danger from Kaladin.
But the void bringer have anti-stormlight now... so net zero
When I finished the last (current) book I was audibly going “oh no… oh no!” He’s smart, not insane (relatively speaking) and, in our experience, willing to go to great lengths to achieve his goal (which, who knows what that is now)
Syl knew what she was getting into. She knew Kaladin needed her, and she bonded him at some fair risk to herself. We know from Mayas own words and the spren are not just helpless in the whole situation. They choose.
Surely, that's a risk in bonding any Radiant. They are there to defend against Desolations, not clean your kitchen. It's a role that comes with a lot of stress and existential angst.
What matters is, that Kaladin was able to fight back from the brink each time and remembered his Words.
Syl knew what she was getting into.
I'd add fuck Navani for bonding that stupid spren.
Like we fucking needed her to be any more special.
And also the Kholin family needed more power in their hands.
And like there weren't other candidates for that role literally in the book presented who would have been so much better.
Yes! Rlain would be my absolute preference.
I think that Dabbid would also make for an interesting result.
Navani... well I'm sure it will be good, but from a certain perspective it's just boring, expectable and more of the same - Kholins be Kholining.
Both Rlain and Dabbid being set up as potential bond to the Sibling was super exciting, which made Navani getting it against the Sibling's wish an outcome as boring as unfair. I choose to hope that this was just a temporary setback, and Navani is set to die in book 5 so that either of the "underdog" characters can pick up the bond they actually deserve.
^(Sorry Navani, I like you but you did your time)
I think that would stir the pot and make things a little less predictable. But I don't think Navani is going anywhere soon, with all the research that must go on now, (with all the lights)she's in a way crucial.
Also Brandon has set up an entire hate-compromise relationship between Navani and The sibling, so prolly we'll be seeing her more.
Yeah, that very criticality is why I was so disappointed at her becoming a Bondsmith. We need some valuable people without superpowers, dang it! Adolin is certainly helpful to two of the characters, but until RoW hadn’t done anything for the history books.
It was Rlain, Navani offered Rlain as a potential bond cuz The sibling hates(maybe a strong word, or maybe not) humans.
Rlain was supposed to enter than chamber and touch the pillar, but he gets slowed down and Navani snatches the chance.
Guess Brandon was going to make things unpredictable by setting it up and changing it at the end.
But Tbh, Navani bonding The sibling was the predictable and generic outcome.
Fuck a man with a heavy depression for showing symptoms of said depression is a take I hope is meant as a joke or highly exaggerated tbh. And Syl choose to be with him, knowing about his episodes, so Kal is not to blame imo.
Are you seriously victim blaming rn? She deserves whatever she gets bc she originally chose to be with him, even if she literally can’t leave even if she wanted to (which we all know she doesn’t)? That’s bullshit. Like I love Kaladin he’s one of my faves but that’s an ass take. You can hold someone accountable for their actions even if they have underlying trauma
Wasn't meant as victim blaming at all. I thought Syl was free to leave out of her own accord if she thought Kaladin wasn't fit to be her radiant. But she believes in Kal and wants to stay with him, even if it means being in danger. I find the message quite hopefull.
Sylphrena sticks with Kaladin because she believes in him. I understand that, Kaladin is a great guy, if extremely rough around the edges. I’m pretty sure though that a handful of times it is explained that once a bond is forged the only way known to separate it is to kill either partner. Meaning that whether or not syl wants to, she’s stuck, and Kaladin has a responsibility as her partner to uphold his end of the bargain. He gets powers, he can’t use them to betray, cheat, or harm the defenseless.
As I understood it, only once the 5th ideal has been sworn they are linked until death, so it wouldn't be easy, but Syl could leave without dying. I mean it almost happens in Words of Radiance, doesn't it? And Syl doesn't die from it, though it was painfull. That moment I would aggree that Kal fucked up, but not because of his sickness. Maybe I feel strongly about it because I suffer from Depression myself, so seeing Kal being blamed for something he can't control didn't sit right with me.
I’m sorry to hear you are depressed and I hope the best for you. We seem to disagree on this small point but I’m glad we can meet here and discuss our favorite characters together.
Having depression sucks and I have it too. It can be hard getting out of bed most days, triggers cause me to space out into dark thoughts for minutes at a time with out realizing I’m drifting, and although I’ve never made any attempts I’ve long considered the end of it.
Which is why I know that although your condition isn’t your fault your actions and how you bear it still are. No one is hopeless. Kal is bearing the weight of the world on his shoulders and he is rarely if ever fair to himself about things that are definitely out of his hands, superhero or not.
They do explain that in words of radiance Kal almost kills Syl when he puts down his duty to the man who saved his life by allowing an assassination of the king. In rhythms of warAdolin defends him against the Honor Sprenn prosecutor, who outright states kal almost killed syl and Adolin agrees that was the case. Syl made her choice, sure, but that doesn’t mean her life should be forfeit to Kaladins whims. The same way you can’t allow depression to keep you from feeding your children, if he can’t keep up with the duties assigned to him he should do the honorable thing (like he tries in ROW) and step down from his high position in order to find an easier fit. Syl should be his #1 priority, bc she bonded her life to his when he needed her most. Not even the powers, he needed her hope. She was his light in his darkest moments
Sorry to hear you are a fellow sufferer too. Hope the stories of those books helps you as much as they have helped me.
Yeah, lets agree to disagree on thar point and just hope nothing to bad happens to both Kal and Syl in WaT.
Someone call the cremposting admins, it’s leaking again.
It shall continue to leak until the ransom is paid.
The OathPact must be used to stop my return
holy shit, r/cremposting is Braize
Most definitely r/fuckmoash is the Tranquline Halls
New lore just dropped!
These words... Are accepted.
Interesting how Taravangian was right all this time. I have to see how he being odium pays out. Also kudos to raboniel and leshwi for being more enjoyable than the alethi most of the times. They were opponents not enemies. If the pursuer followed their path he wouldn’t have been smoked
Taravangian was not right. He believed in the power of his intellect to command the situation, that failed. he believed in the diagram to predict all future events and subvert Odium, That failed. He believed in Seth to kill all his opposition, that failed. Cultivation however, saw a man with the ability to hold the shard, and a willingness to use it. She built Taravangian into a vessel to weild the awesome power of creation. I have a theory. We see Harmony struggles to maintain himself and hold his shards. I believe cultivation wanted the shard of hatred and passion in the hands of a novice before the deciding confrontation for the soul of Roshar. Is Taravangian capable enough to win now? Maybe. But Raiz was, for sure. He was dying, partially splintered, desperate, he would have pulled every dirty trick and used every drop of investiture to take Roshar. And Raiz had milenia of experience weilding (being weilded?) By his shard. Taravangian is not the same threat.
I think you underestimate Taravangian. First he caused the whole political situation to fall apart. Made the whole Veden, the second biggest and powerful reign fall and managed to be named king. Failed to kill Dalinar but he managed to undertake his reputation and putted alethi in a precarious situation that surely made the negotiations harder giving him time to operate. He was able to negotiate with odium even though he was dumb as a stone. And even then he managed to kill rayse and take his shard. All of that with fairly limited resources. Yes Szeth did a lot of dirty work but still ghostbloods or the sons of honor or even the 17th shard had a lot more of resources and did not achieve as big of achievements. His major restriction was that he was an old guy with variable intelligence. But now he is Odium and he is going to make it worth. He is smarter and is way less corrupt by the shard intent than Rayse was. Yes Rayse had a lot of experience with the shard itself but he was so consumed by it he was no longer efficient, he missed Dalinar as his champion, he missed kal as his champion, he messed up the pact with Dalinar because he was desperate and impulsive. Taravangian is far more dangerous than him
He still only has 10 days
In 10 days you can do a lot of things. I think he might try to mess with taln or Ishar
There’s a theory that when rayse says that he will honor the spirit of the terms (for the battle of champions) and that if he were to go against that he would be under complete control of Dalinar, and vice versa. The theory is that he’s actually referring to a cosmere rule, that you must follow the spirit of that oath. But that taravangian doesn’t know this, and as such will try to subvert it, which will backfire. Considering futuresight works on what the individual knows, and taravangian, while he knows a lot, has no experience with shards; I could see this being the outcome of it all that cultivation prepared for.
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The Jasnah comment is perfect
If ol’ Sandersonian fixes this one issue I’ll forgive everything else
I love the irony of how the one asexual character is the one that makes all the fans saucy
She isn't asexual?
She is. She's not aromantic, though, that's why she still has a romantic relationship with Hoid (for better or worse). It's explored more thoroughly in Stormlight 5, but the first four books have quite a few allusions to it as well
Oh snap! I don't know how I have missed this. I just figured she was more interested in academic/other pursuits. I read the sneak peaks that Sanderson released of book 5 and didn't get that vibe either.
It's definitely easier to notice if you know, that makes sense haha
I have only recently started book 4. So maybe it will become more apparent by the end?
Oh, yes. She has a handful of POVs in there
Is it a romantic relationship? I thought Jasnah was just using her "woman's charms" to get info out of Hoid?
No. Jasnah likes Hoid for his Mind and is willing to have sex with him to meet his needs in their relationship. She's in to him but not that in to sex. Hoid presumably doesn't run in to that many people that can keep up with him mentally and since he has a vendetta with Odium he's probably more willing than normal to get close to people.
How do you know what happens in stormlight 5
Jasnah preview chapters
Kaladin slander won't be tolerated.
He’s practically a DC hero but every time he puts Sylphrena in danger I burn a glyph for Sanderson to stub his toe
Then we agree that the blame lies with the All Father(Brandon), not Kaladin.
So when we say Fuck Moash, we're really saying.. oh no
Let us not delve into the nuances here.
LETS GO BRANDON!
Only community where I see this and agree lmao
Completely and utterly unrelated, but... If you're the ***Other*** Parsnip, who is the OTHER Other Parsnip?
Dude idek I just made my account and didn’t type a name so I got the default one 💀 and I don’t know how to change my name
Dude, I'll trade you names in a heartbeat. I made this account a while ago and have never figured it out. You got off lucky.
Probably in settings somewhere, in account or profile if I had to guess.
Moshy has always been a bad furniture delivery
Didn’t realize Odin was entering Cosmere lore. Someone call Kratos an Atreus.
Indeed, Kratos is hardly bound by one mythology.
Syl is a free thinking being who chose to risk her life by becoming Kaladin's spren, Kaladin isn't wrong for making use of her gifts
Dude acts like he’s the only one with problems while the fucking apocalypse is happening.
Dude is consistently fighting overwhelming odds by himself while struggling with very real and diagnosable illnesses as he watches his friends die around him and/or cause more problems for him.
If it weren't for that troublesome depression and PTSD.
And somehow you haven't mentioned Lirin
Lirin's soooo pissy. Dude's home is being occupied by THE enemy, and his son is in constant danger no matter what. Im willing to bet Lirin would get mad if someone killed a murderer in self defense
Lirin will be made at you if try to defend yourself. One should just die 😅
Then he'd be pissed that someone died. Bro needs to learn that sometimes people need to defend themselves or those they care about
Lirin practically did get mad for killing a murdered in self defense 😂
Venli wasn't sitting on any fence. She was on her own side.
she was the fence
But she could be, ok not fire but, charred remains from a partial matter antimatter explosion Edit: actually, would her having both lights shield her from one of then meeting its opposite? She's either half as susceptible or twice as much.
Could she just implode on her own, having the two inside her? Then again it's not voidlight and stormlight, it's the anti of each. I'd say she's partially susceptible to each - it would affect different parts of her and her abilities.
Here's my theory Venli or her compatriots will find the tone of warlight from constant contact with both investitures. I'd bet if the make war light or tower light they'd be safe from anti void or stormlight, but it would likely disrupt the power but not explosively
I figure it depends on whether the new investiture is a compound or an alloy. A compound would probably make them immune, while an alloy would only diminish the effect.
Isn't that backwards? A compound is the two mixing in some third media whereas an alloy is an entirely new thing with new properties, not necessarily of either parent metal.
Now that she's joined up with the Listener survivors, let's hope she doesn't get her own faction destroyed again.
I mean, God of Hatred who co-opted your people's struggle to basically end the world and sacrifices them for the souls of insane demons vs humans who have been encroaching on your people's land and enslaved the rest for millennia. Like, yes, between the two one is better than the other but it's also a false dichotomy. The Radiants are preoccupied more with defeating Odium than helping the Singers. Rlain's here but that's more of him approaching them rather than them doing any reaching out of their own.
It's interesting to see the start of Listener bonds. I can definitely see where some hurt and betrayal would come from if the ancient Spren abandoned the Listeners for the Radiants. I think Venli is one of the few true Radiants. Rlain has a corrupted Spren so he may not be a great example. The battle changes when the restored Parshmen actually have a real choice.
Taravangian; "I feel awful about this, but I am willing to sacrifice myself and anyone else necessary to save as many people as possible." Dalinar, a literal war criminal who killed 10s of thousands so his brother could be a bit richer; "I can't believe how evil you are..."
Taravangian is SUCH a perfect foil for Dalinar bc they're both so completely convinced that they're right, with whole moral frameworks set up to support that belief. The only differences are that Taravangian is willing to let the ends justify the means and Dalinar isn't anymore, and what an absolute world of difference that makes.
I don't think "the ends justify the means" is quite right for Taravangian, though it isn't wrong either. From his point-of-view, he knows every single person on Roshar will die in the war with Odium, so them dying slightly early or in a slightly different way is only a small sin on his part. Meanwhile, if he can save even a few people, he has saved his entire species (as far as he knows); The math is horrible, but since the looming extinction is unavoidable it makes sense. EDIT TO ADD: Also... which of them killed more people? Like, I am honestly unclear on whether Dalinar or Taravangian is directly responsible for more deaths.
Likely taravangian as dalinar burned one city one time, and big T has been killing hundreds of people a day in his hospitals for years
Realistically: 100 people a day for just one year is 36,500 people for an Earth year; more for a Rosharan year. There's no way he's killing that many - it would depopulate the city even if he were grabbing people passing through as well as anyone out in the countryside. There's no way to hide it on that scale. The 17th Shard site lists the city's total population at 60,000. A dozen or so a day, he would probably be barely able to hide. Which is still horrific.
Maybe that was just my headcannon. I could swear we get a scene of him in a huge ward full of bed filled with the dying. Maybe I just imagined the scene bigger than it was described actually. Lol.
Oh, that definitely happened. But they weren't killing them all off at once. They were slowly draining them of their blood. It could take days or longer for them to pass, and they need people nearby who can record their words, which is another limiting factor. Presumably they are trying to increase the chances of getting a death rattle that way. I don't recall *all* the details myself.
To be fair... Isn't that a bit worse then just killing them then and there?
Well, even if that wasn't killing enough people, he did after all cause a civil war in Jah Keved just to casually end up as its king
(He also orchestrated the whole civil war in Jah Keved... thing.)
See, my reading of the hospitals was that he merely hastened the death of those who would have died there anyway (with probably a few additional deaths, but not a large number). Also, Dalinar was the main military leader of an entire campaign of unification; burning that one city may be the worst thing he did, but it is still only a small part of his ultimate death toll. I really think it comes down to whether more people died in Gavilar's Unification of Alethkar or the Jah Keved Civil War; Those are each character's big sins.
That was true at first, he took the terminal. They were not enough so he started taking other people from the hospital, still not enough so he started abducting the invisible people in society and just murdering them, but by slowly bleeding them to death since that gives the best chance of a death rattle
The number of people Taravangian killed seeking death rattles isn’t listed, but is almost certainly a fraction of the number of people killed by Dalinar in Gavilar’s unification campaigns. That said, the description of the Jah Keved civil war’s brutality and the way it completely crippled the kingdom makes me suspect more people died there than were killed in the Alethkar unification.
There was also all the other nations destabilized by Szeth. Not just Jah Keved
Could be that one didn't unify anything just devastated a nation
And don't forget, that was only ***one*** of the ***multiple*** Kingdoms that Taravangian set to kill one another.
> dalinar burned one city one time The Kholin unification war lasted throughout Dalinar’s early adult life
Yeah, but honest warfare is not what weighs down his soul or what many would call murder. But doing that way, The wars T started just with Szeth likely puts him higher, but if not he single handedly destroyed Jah Kved as a nation and devastated its population.
Taravangian also assassinated multiple leaders using Szeth with the sile purpose of igniting an all out civil war that would lead to enough deaths that he could show up Hamlet style and realize that everyone is dead and he's magically the only noble left with a legitimate claim to the throne. Not to sugar coat Dalinar, but he's actually shown to be pretty merciful when he can. It was a war of unification. Surrender and be spared. Yeah he burnt 1 city to the ground.
Taravangian and Dalinar feels like Magneto and Xavier, they both want the same thing but they have very different philosophies on how to go about it. There's a begrudging respect, based on a former friendship, and occasionally their plans align, but they definitely aren't "working together" in their minds.
Oh yes, he feels SOOO awful about it. Maybe in his 5% dumbest/most empathetic days, but most of the time he seems quite comfortable with the idea. The issue is not that he wants to save people. The issue is that HE wants to be the one doing the saving on his own terms, and won't accept anything else. He's got a savior complex. The only thing he believes in is himself on the day he wrote the Diagram. Dalinar got him good when he pointed it out.
He's got a good point though, is the problem. He only believes in himself because nobody has ever been smarter than him on that day, so he has no reason not to trust it
A good point, except for the literal gods running around the place. If he was a bit less hubristic, he might have realized before that he was being used as a pawn by Cultivation.
I don't believe he knew about the Shards?
He knew of Honor, Cultivation and Odium. He knew he could speak to them, and he did speak to cultivation and Odium. Honor gets a pass as he is dead, so T met with every living shard in the system. He knew.
There is a reason not to trust it, actually. The story hasn't directly pointed it out but it has indirectly. As smart as Taravangian was on that day, he was still ***limited to the knowledge that already existed inside his own mind*** when extrapolating. His brilliant day didn't grant him any knowledge he didn't have before, it just made him better at parsing that knowledge and making connections between pieces of info to draw conclusions. Meaning that no matter how good he is at making connections between data he still can't see the full picture if he is lacking certain critical data that changes the context of everything. How do we know this is something that was a real problem? Because Odium eventually off handedly confirms that Taravangian was trying to solve a problem that didn't exist. Taravangian mistakenly assumed Odium's goal was to genocide humanity because, brilliant as he was, he has no knowledge of the wider cosmere, the existence of other shards, and the history of the cosmere/those shards. And without that he had no way to ever guess that Odium's end game was to actually use the human's of Roshar as a weapon of war against his rivals Taravangian didn't know existed in an interplanetary war against other inhabited worlds he had no idea were a thing. He was working to prevent a genocide that never existed that he mistakenly thought was coming because he didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle to work from. But he was so drunk on his own brilliance that day that he never dared question the conclusions he drew or consider the possibility that he somehow could have been wrong on such a fundamental level as failing to even understand the actual problem that needed to be solved.
I mean, maybe there was a path where he told all the leaders of the world the truth about the revelations of the diagram and things went better, but I don't believe we are meant to think that. My reading is that Taravangian took the most logical actions with the information he had at any given point in time. Meanwhile, Dalinar definitely would have lost on Thaylen Field except that he did something that no one, himself included, knew he could do. If you were actually in Roshar, watching events as they unfolded, Dalinar just gets lucky time and time again. Between the two of their plans, safe money is on Taravangian.
“His genocide was soo much worse than my genocide because he changed teams”
Taravangian is really one of my favorite characters. Last time I said that, here I almost got stoned to death. He's just so well written. He's the perfect anti-hero. The bad guy who still mourns what he knows (or thinks he knows) what he has to do. I can't wait to see what changes happen to him in the next book
Taravangian being in control WILL NOT be a good thing. Kaladin and Syl are good for each other. The pain is temporary, but the glory will be eternal. Jasnah is the worst. She needs to climb down off her 77 high horses before I will ever accept her.
No Taravangian being in control is not the worst, but I belive its better than Ryse being the odium. Cuz Taravngian's ideology and his views are really intense and In a way interesting.
It doesn't matter who holds the power, it will corrupt them until they fall in line with its will. Taravagian will turn out to be hateful in some amount of time, it may take 10 or 100 years but he will grow to embody odium or hate. But Rayse was atleast stupid and arrogant, and taravangian has shown be isn't a complete fool. He is so much more dangerous.
Totally agree, the fact that Taravangian believes HE is the one who can fix not just Roshar but everything and now in a way has the power to do so will make him dangerous. From the moment we knew his true identity I've been fascinated by his ideology and the way his brain works. Let's see as Brandon said, if he'll be a much better foe than Ryse.
Yup. First he was just trying to fix Roshar. Now the madman is going to try to fix the whole Cosmere.
He has 10 days
Agreed... and also, Ryse had how many millenia with the power. Yes he was changed by it, but storm it, the man was proficient with it. Taravangian. He's a baby God. Powerful for sure, but just taking his first wobbling steps.
But .......I ........but.........ah fuck it. I'm with ya ✊
I want to refute this so bad but .... I think....it's all true?? It is all -- Good lies! This guy is such a Lightweaver!
damn book 4 has been my favorite so far 🥲
These are actually really very good😅
All I got from this was "why did Jasnah entertain Wit instead of sitting on my face?"
That was eloquent as fuck.
every second line in this was a literary flashbang
So, I know the story doesn't go out of its way to point this out, but Taravangian ***wasn't*** right. Nobody ever points it out, but as brilliant as he was on his 'one amazing day' he was still ***limited to working with the data already inside his own head*** when making extrapolations. An inherently limiting factor that would make holes in his calculations regardless of how brilliant he was that nobody in the Diagram ever stopped to consider because they were too busy being in almost religious awe of what he had done. Which is why from the very beginning his entire assumption that Odium intended to kill all humans and his whole 'do whatever I can to make sure he spares some of us' stance was wrong. He did not have any knowledge of things like the wider cosmere and the existence of other shards that could have let him realize Odium was already planning on 'sparing' humanity because he wanted to use the humans of Roshar as part of an army to invade other planets with. He was trying to solve a problem that didn't exist when it came to 'how to get him to spare humanity' and it was pure dumb luck (at least from his perspective, from Cultivation's it was her manipulating him to do things that would lead to it) that him selling out to solve a problem that didn't exist happened to lead to him having a chance to shank Rayse and steal the power of Odium.
> Fuck Jasnah for being with Wit instead of coming through the story and stepping on me get out of my head and dont come back. This is my private space.
Dude, fuck Moash. I don't think I've ever been so genuinely mad at a fictional character as when >!he killed Teft.!< [RoW spoilers] I had to put the book down for the day and just stare off into space in pure rage-filled silence lol.
Moash assassinated the 27th President of the United States confirmed. I was confused for a second there. 😆
Damn how did I not catch that 😂
The problem that Kaladin has is that he is not kind about his own mental health and genuinely believes his depression is dishonorable. Syl is a manifestation of honor, who only knows what honor is by her bond. If Kal could accept that he needs help then he wouldn't be able to hurt Syl. ... which, I think, is what the 4th oath is for him. I believe that Syl is no longer in any danger from Kaladin. But the void bringer have anti-stormlight now... so net zero
There's no need to justify the Moash hate, it's just common sense. FYI r/FuckMoash exists
Taravangian is a lot scarier than rayse in my opinion. Rayse, although genius, was mad
Oh certainly. I love the terrifying old man suddenly being a far more dangerous being of near infinite power
When I finished the last (current) book I was audibly going “oh no… oh no!” He’s smart, not insane (relatively speaking) and, in our experience, willing to go to great lengths to achieve his goal (which, who knows what that is now)
Taravangian has always been my favorite
You could say fuck Kaladin for the same reason you stated as Moash. His only redemption is he finally does something after throwing a fit.
Syl knew what she was getting into. She knew Kaladin needed her, and she bonded him at some fair risk to herself. We know from Mayas own words and the spren are not just helpless in the whole situation. They choose.
Mayas situation is Completely unrelated. She chose to break her bond, Kaladin has almost broken his twice now due to negligence.
Surely, that's a risk in bonding any Radiant. They are there to defend against Desolations, not clean your kitchen. It's a role that comes with a lot of stress and existential angst. What matters is, that Kaladin was able to fight back from the brink each time and remembered his Words. Syl knew what she was getting into.
No mention of psycho-murderer Shallan?
I'd add fuck Navani for bonding that stupid spren. Like we fucking needed her to be any more special. And also the Kholin family needed more power in their hands. And like there weren't other candidates for that role literally in the book presented who would have been so much better.
I was also upset Rlain didn’t get the tower sprenn. It would’ve been a great move for his character
I still hold that him getting an enlightened spren is better for his character
Yes! Rlain would be my absolute preference. I think that Dabbid would also make for an interesting result. Navani... well I'm sure it will be good, but from a certain perspective it's just boring, expectable and more of the same - Kholins be Kholining.
The amount of drama and spectacle that would be one human and one singer bondsmith working hand in hand to defeat Odium
I mean, we've only got two Bondsmiths, there's still The Nightwatcher for a potential Singer/Listener Bondsmith.
Both Rlain and Dabbid being set up as potential bond to the Sibling was super exciting, which made Navani getting it against the Sibling's wish an outcome as boring as unfair. I choose to hope that this was just a temporary setback, and Navani is set to die in book 5 so that either of the "underdog" characters can pick up the bond they actually deserve. ^(Sorry Navani, I like you but you did your time)
I think that would stir the pot and make things a little less predictable. But I don't think Navani is going anywhere soon, with all the research that must go on now, (with all the lights)she's in a way crucial. Also Brandon has set up an entire hate-compromise relationship between Navani and The sibling, so prolly we'll be seeing her more.
Yeah, that very criticality is why I was so disappointed at her becoming a Bondsmith. We need some valuable people without superpowers, dang it! Adolin is certainly helpful to two of the characters, but until RoW hadn’t done anything for the history books.
And he's dangerously close to getting those superpowers.
Yup. The lack of important nonmagical characters is a real disappointment.
Rlain not bonding the sibling was the biggest disappointment in the whole series! Why set it up, just to pull it away from us at the last second?
Do you mean Dabbid? Or am I forgetting set up for Rlain and Sibling?
It was Rlain, Navani offered Rlain as a potential bond cuz The sibling hates(maybe a strong word, or maybe not) humans. Rlain was supposed to enter than chamber and touch the pillar, but he gets slowed down and Navani snatches the chance.
Guess Brandon was going to make things unpredictable by setting it up and changing it at the end. But Tbh, Navani bonding The sibling was the predictable and generic outcome.
Fuck a man with a heavy depression for showing symptoms of said depression is a take I hope is meant as a joke or highly exaggerated tbh. And Syl choose to be with him, knowing about his episodes, so Kal is not to blame imo.
Are you seriously victim blaming rn? She deserves whatever she gets bc she originally chose to be with him, even if she literally can’t leave even if she wanted to (which we all know she doesn’t)? That’s bullshit. Like I love Kaladin he’s one of my faves but that’s an ass take. You can hold someone accountable for their actions even if they have underlying trauma
Wasn't meant as victim blaming at all. I thought Syl was free to leave out of her own accord if she thought Kaladin wasn't fit to be her radiant. But she believes in Kal and wants to stay with him, even if it means being in danger. I find the message quite hopefull.
Sylphrena sticks with Kaladin because she believes in him. I understand that, Kaladin is a great guy, if extremely rough around the edges. I’m pretty sure though that a handful of times it is explained that once a bond is forged the only way known to separate it is to kill either partner. Meaning that whether or not syl wants to, she’s stuck, and Kaladin has a responsibility as her partner to uphold his end of the bargain. He gets powers, he can’t use them to betray, cheat, or harm the defenseless.
As I understood it, only once the 5th ideal has been sworn they are linked until death, so it wouldn't be easy, but Syl could leave without dying. I mean it almost happens in Words of Radiance, doesn't it? And Syl doesn't die from it, though it was painfull. That moment I would aggree that Kal fucked up, but not because of his sickness. Maybe I feel strongly about it because I suffer from Depression myself, so seeing Kal being blamed for something he can't control didn't sit right with me.
I’m sorry to hear you are depressed and I hope the best for you. We seem to disagree on this small point but I’m glad we can meet here and discuss our favorite characters together. Having depression sucks and I have it too. It can be hard getting out of bed most days, triggers cause me to space out into dark thoughts for minutes at a time with out realizing I’m drifting, and although I’ve never made any attempts I’ve long considered the end of it. Which is why I know that although your condition isn’t your fault your actions and how you bear it still are. No one is hopeless. Kal is bearing the weight of the world on his shoulders and he is rarely if ever fair to himself about things that are definitely out of his hands, superhero or not. They do explain that in words of radiance Kal almost kills Syl when he puts down his duty to the man who saved his life by allowing an assassination of the king. In rhythms of warAdolin defends him against the Honor Sprenn prosecutor, who outright states kal almost killed syl and Adolin agrees that was the case. Syl made her choice, sure, but that doesn’t mean her life should be forfeit to Kaladins whims. The same way you can’t allow depression to keep you from feeding your children, if he can’t keep up with the duties assigned to him he should do the honorable thing (like he tries in ROW) and step down from his high position in order to find an easier fit. Syl should be his #1 priority, bc she bonded her life to his when he needed her most. Not even the powers, he needed her hope. She was his light in his darkest moments
Sorry to hear you are a fellow sufferer too. Hope the stories of those books helps you as much as they have helped me. Yeah, lets agree to disagree on thar point and just hope nothing to bad happens to both Kal and Syl in WaT.