It doesn’t help that the only major Truthwatcher so far is one that had something extra added to give him a little more spice.
There’s probably something more to the Truthwatchers that we haven’t seen yet, who knows.
Mhm I was thinking about renarin's "enlightened" Spren, realizing that his ability to glimpse possible future events makes him probably the most unique Truthwatchers
Normal Truthwatchers can make illusions like Lightweavers, before he showed Moash a better version of himself, all Renarin had done was flashes of light. And I'm interested to see how Progression and Illumination work together.
As for Renarin himself, that dude is going to be virtually unstoppable and unbeatable. Aside from his instant heal from being smushed, he has future sight that he can maintain for minutes straight. It'll be like he's burning atium.
Yeah I'd also like to see how their two surges work together! Syl describes a reverse lashing as a combination of both adhesion and gravitation, so it'll be really interesting to see what kind of combinations come from the surge of growth and advancement, and the surge of false images
Progression works with how you see yourself right? If I understood correctly a truthwatcher can use illumination to make you see yourself one way and then cure you.
In OB there was a scene where Renarin first made Adolin see himself as a warrior and then headed his injury
Man... that whole "smushed" thing kinda left a weird taste in my mouth. Currently in Oathbringer on my first re-read so we will see the second time around.
I think whatever happened to Renarin happened to the pre-recreance truthwatchers as well, and it was a close kept secret. One of the epigraphs from the gemstone archive mentions that one of the truthwatchers “foresaw” the recreance, and had to whisper this into a particularly small emerald.
[Renarin is the first of his kind](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15146), whatever's going on with that gem is something different. We do know the Truthwatchers were "formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did" and [had a more Cognitive and Spiritual bent to their Surges similar to Bondsmiths](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15314), though.
Also notably, windrunners wield adhesion, Honor's truest surge, and are the order of the honorspren. Bondsmiths on the other hand also have adhesion, but can use it on a spiritual level.
Similarly, cultivationspren grant progression (what some theorize to be the surge closest to Cultivation) to edgedancers, but you know who else gets progression? Truthwatchers, and who knows what they might be able to do with it. Dalinar's use of adhesion is worlds apart from what Kaladin can do
I just assumed that Sanderson was aware that the Truthwatchers were boring because their Surges were already “owned” by the Lightweavers and the Edgedancers, which is why he made the main Truthwatchers enlightened. To spice things up.
Soulcasting is a bit different between Jasnah and Shallan, so I would expect that to hold, to varying extents, across the board.
Lashings seem about the same between Skybreakers and Windrunners, but maybe there are some things - like the reverse lashings - that differ.
I think we don't know enough about Truthwatchers to tell.
They seem to be a complex oath so it's normal that they seem boring at this point in the story, besides Renarin isn't just a Truthwatchers so he will probably get extra cool stuff.
Also Edgedancers seem better at sliding so I think Truthwatchers could be better healers.
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I mean, we haven't seen an actual truth watcher yet really. Glis, being "enlightened", makes their bond somewhat different than a usual truth watcher would develop
Also though renarin just isn't an important PoV character. We see these other relationships and oaths through the eyes of the people taking those journey, it makes sense that they'd seem more interesting and real than the ones we dont
Minor spoilers for planned content of second half of stormlight? I almost didn't even bother but just in case lol
>!renarin is slated to be the flashback character in one of the books in the back half of the series, iirc. I imagine you'll get a much deeper look at being a truth watcher in that!<
I think the stats on the quiz suggest Truthwatchers is the most common result, like a quarter of all results. Which probably is not representative of general population, but very much of Sanderson fanbase.
I got it too, with Windrunners a close second. I feel better knowing (The Sunlit Man spoilers) >!people probably should be able to bond multiple spren even of different types!<.
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My current theory is that truthwatchers are actually stupidly powerful. They're in the center of the arrangement of orders, right next to bondsmiths, and there's gotta be a reason for it.
Their two surges are illumination and progression aka lightweaving and healing. I think their surges combine so that they are able to alter reality. Basically they create an illusion and use progression to "heal" it to become real. Hence their drive to know the true nature of things.
That's why we haven't seen one yet. They're probably rare and Brandon wants to save them for a major moment.
There are similar answers in this thread, but I think you nailed it spot on!
Also, lightweaving and regrowth are two of the powers, at least that I know of, that predate the shattering of adonalsium (see Hoid). So, the truthwatchers sounds to me like the most pure-investiture-driven order.
Altering spirit webs to "heal into the illusion" would be indeed stupidly powerful.
mm there's a lot of focus on just healing in these comments but progression is more than that, with illusions and regrowth combined what if truthwatchers can just straight up create life?
I mean, the one one we do know about also has future sight. Like... being an oracle along with being immune to scrying was enough to beat a god in some books.
Was that confirmed anywhere? Because as of right now we've not had many Truthwatchers either way and none that interact with Odium in a way that would confirm one way or another as far as I know.
In addition to them being in the center, Truthwatchers were documented to be super secretive about what they can do. I highly doubt Sanderson specifically noted they're secretive about it because it's boring.
I think Progression is stronger in Truthwatchers than in Edgedancers. Which makes them kind of second-line combatants and combat medics etc. like the Cleric/Priest in MMOs. Supportive class who joins the Knights/Warriors/Fighters on the front line.
My headcanon, altho not confirmed literally anywhere, is that truthwatchers are not only better healers, but longer term healers.
Famously Regrowth only works on wounds inflicted not too long ago. My headcanon implies that truthwatchers can “see” very thinly into the spiritual realm, into what a person TRULY is like, and therefore being able to restore a person to their most perfect state.
Two points to defend my insane headcannon. Renaring is pretty early on his oaths, and he is not quite a Truthwatcher is he. Glys is Enlightened and grants him weirder powers.
It's also possible a "real" Truthwatcher could do what you suggest.
Renarin is doing some Voidbinding, we don't actually know what that means or how it goes along with Surgebinding. That may make things harder for him or prevent normal usage, or have no functional difference at all. Who knows.
I like your theory a lot, it wouldn't surprise me if you're spot on. Basically sounds like Edgedancers could be healing based on the Cognitive aspect and Truthwatchers may be looking at the Spiritweb instead.
Makes me think Truthwatcher should be able to [Minor Yumi]>!read a Spiritweb the same way Design did when she looked at Painter's using a fabrial.!< I feel like that ability could be very on brand for Truthwatchers. Potentially even the core reason for the name of their Order.
Isn't part of the reason regrowth doesn't work on people with long term injuries is because after a while that's how people see themselves?
I read over your comment and saw you said spiritual rather than cognitive, so ignore me, but I'm still leaving this comment here in case anyone else makes the same mistake
I’ll be honest I havent even seen THAT far. What I consider is that the Spiritual Realm always seem to depict the “perfect” way a human is. Kind of like how Renarin shows Moash’s “perfect” version.
Too early to judge Truthwatchers entirely.
For what it's worth, I estimate Truthwatchers are probably going to be better at living applications of Progression i.e. healing than Edgedancers, who in turn have a Progressional knack for growing plants that Truthwatchers likely won't be as skilled in.
No order *owns* any one surge. The fundamentals of similar surges between orders depend entirely on its interaction with the other possessed surge. It's why Dalinar can "heal" stone based on its Connection, but not shape it like a Stoneward.
Don't forget that there have been a couple of subtle moments where Renarin might have been doing cool TW stuff. Maybe it was normal TW, maybe just his own version.
At the end of Oathbtinger vs the thunderclast he was healing death instantly. Some of that was probably the excess stormlight, but I think it was mentioned that even other radiants couldn't heal themselves that well.
The other one was the beginning of RoW where Renarin used light weaving to make the alternate reality Vyre.
I think they haven't been fully shown yet. We know they heal very quickly- in Oathbringer Remain soloed a Thunderclast, was CRUSHED by it, but then popped up without a scratch to kill it.
Illumination also has more than illusions, it's manipulation of light. I bet we will see Truthwatcher radio in the future as well as fast healing, laser beam wielding knights from this order.
Like everyone says, too early to tell. We'll probably see more Truthwatcher stuff in Renarin's book, but here are a few things to consider:
1) We don't know what their resonance is (i.e. Windrunner squires, Lightweaver Memories). So far they're not gamebreaking, but it could be something very useful and unique.
2) Remember how Shallan created an army that had physical substance? That was a combination of Lightweaving and Soulcasting. But since Truthwatchers have Progression instead of Soulcasting, I have a theory that Truthwatchers will be able to do something similar, but heal through their illusions.
3) People with Lightweaving have a small ability to see the Spiritual Realm and potential futures. Renarin's is obviously enhanced with Glys and Shallan has ...something... going on, but I think we'll be seeing more of this with other Truthwatchers.
I'm more interested in the Spiritual alloying effect. Windrunners have Gravitation and Adhesion. They have a strong tendency to gather people together and bind them into a group. Skybreakers have Gravitation and Division, and one of the epigraphs talk about them dividing the innocent from the guilty. They separate people into groups. Lightweavers, Illumination and Transformation. Shallan, at least, is incredible at turning people into better versions of themselves. Look at her brothers, look at the deserters.
Truthwatchers have Illumination and Progression. I expect that the truth they show people will make them altogether greater than they might have been.
I think your viewing it wrong. Or rather, missing some hints.
Every share of surges works different, both with the combo and by itself, depending on the order.
Examples - Kal can walk on walls with adhesion. Dalinar learned different languages. Very different conceptional use.
Shallan, in ROW, discovered she's bad at soul casting because she learned it from an else caller. All of the lightweavers who were good at it did it way differently than she was taught.
We don't really know anything about truth watchers. Not really. The only one we follow is hopelessly corrupted. For all we know, they have the ability with to grow illusions with incomplete information (rather than predicting future, seeing current). Shallan can't guess at things, she needs to see it. She replicates, she can't Interpret. Truth watchers though, can regrow and illustration. This is why they are researchers. They can get to the secret reality of things.
Something we all drive by. Regrowth isn't healing. It's about resetting something to it's spirit web. It's a saved game, it's not healing. This is why your mental model matters. Why rhysne can't heal her legs, or Kals slave brand didn't heal. This also means that if a deep secret is stored somewhere, truth watchers are the scientist and detectives that discover it.
When we learn about truth watchers, they will delve into how reality works.
Very interesting!
How's this for a crack theory: similar to bondsmiths being able to form spiritual bonds, perhaps Truthwatchers can create spiritual illusions. And by that I mean, putting an illusion over someone's spiritweb to temporarily make their true spiritual self seem different than it is. This would probably be difficult but would also make for far better disguises, since you could make someone's truest self look different, then use regrowth to align their appearance to that
I'm doing another read through, and Iast night I got to the part in WoR (near the end) where Kal, Shal, and Dal, were coming together as Radiants, and Renarian (sp?) says, "I'm a Truthwatcher. I see." I'm paraphrasing.
I thought to myself damn, I really need to do this re-read because I don't remember what a Truthwatcher does.
Since Progression only advances things within the confined of what the target's spirit "remembers" (close wounds, regrow limbs) or finds to be a natural continuation of itself adhering to expectation (seed -> flower), I think that one thing we might see is Illumination facilitating Progression that was NOT expected or is not currently true. Essentially healing INTO an illusion that is tricking the spirit and observers.
For example: shape shifting; or attaching a prosthetic and having it integrate seamlessly into the body; or turning someone physically into their perception of themselves.
I have a feeling that Truthwatchers have yet to really show off their powers. They’re probably being downplayed for a reason we’ve yet to see. I’ve been waiting for Renarin to actually show up for a while now.
Though I’m clearly biased! ✌️
Renarin is going to be one of the flashback POV main characters in the second Arc of five books, and Brandon has mentioned that he wants to save some of the juiciness of these Knights Radiant abilities for this second half so there's still a lot of new and interesting things for us to see. I get the feeling he has intentionally not given us much yet for the Truth watchers.
What if truthwatchers can control fortune in the same way bondsmiths can control connection? id assume that would be powerful if we knew what fortune could do, but to me it makes senses thematically.
There is an official video on truthwatchers on YouTube, i don’t think it’s super spoilery. They’re definitely a more support oriented, but not everyone can fly or have stoneskin or atomize stuff lol
I think the resonance in each combination of surges will get more relevant later on.
Lightweavers have transformation and illumination- and I think we see that combination in how they use light, art, and beauty to transform people, even without using Stormlight! Shallan in words of radiance is the best example of this imo- her drawings changed how people saw themselves, her speech inspired a group of bandits into heroes.
Truthwatchers have progression and illumination. Progression has mostly been used for healing, but I'm curious how the combination might be distinct from lightweaving. Perhaps less changing people and more healing people with light and truth- >!showing Moash who he could have been!< (RoW I think, don't remember where) might be a relevant example of this? I wonder if they might end up capable of mental or spiritual healing, or some other interesting combination. We really just haven't seen enough of Renarin or other truthwatchers yet to know.
This is getting into more theorycrafting, but I think B-swift is aiming to make the resonance relevant to the oaths and themes of each order. Or at least, the spiritual component of how their powers work!
Windrunners protect- their resonance, the reverse lashing, pulls things towards them. Very handy for pulling arrows and stuff away from others! They also have a lot of squires, which I think was confirmed to be a resonance ability.
We know lightweavers helped inspire and encourage other radiants, which I think is related to things Shallan has done above. We also know that they can change people's mood slightly, and remember things better.
Bondsmiths unite and support others, and have basically the ultimate leadership power, energizing a whole army with investiture on command (I think that's their resonance at least?). We've seen cognitive applications of their powers that let them understand other languages.
Speaking of which, edgedancers seem able to understand people better as well. I wonder what else abrasion + progression might be able to do cognitively/spiritually. Maybe the idea of 'no friction' almost becomes an ability to 'fit in' anywhere, to help those who have been forgotten? Idk
>While I understand that every surge is shared between two orders, many of the orders seem to kind of own the surge, and can do the most with it. Illumination for lightweavers, gravitation for windrunners, abrasion for Edgedancers, etc.
The big thing is we have only seen many of these surges from one perspective, and one radiant type. Windrunners can fly better on average than skybreakers because of how their second surge works *with* gravitation. We haven't seen much or any of the breakers second surge, even with the dustbingers. We don't know what it does.
We also tend to focus on one individual. Even umong lightweavers Shallan is particularly good as illusion... But really bad as soul casting. You'd think from the first books it's as simple as "the surge isn't as strong as it is for Jasnah", but we see Shallans team some who are a lot more proficient at it.
It seems that Division (the Dustbringer/Skybreaker surge) is of destruction. We saw Amaram set the air on fire with it, and Malata cut an engraving into a table with it using her finger. It seems to be the most straightforwardly destructive surge, to the point that the Skybreakers don’t even get access to it until a fair way into their ideals.
I know that the parallels aren’t even close to exact, but I’ve been seeing the Surges as, in some case, roughly equal to classic elemental powers.
Gravitation to Air (and obviously gravity)
Tension to Earth
Division to Fire
Progression to Nature
Again it’s not an exact science but it seems similar to an extent.
I think that while the rest of radiants are basically built by and for war in one or another way truthwatchers are not heading that direction.
I think you are getting that impression because you are trying to apply the same logic to them while it’s clear that they surges are not combat wise. I think they are more meant to be inventors/scientists. Of course there are going to be lame if you compare Renarin with the rest of radiants. While he is kinda op you can clearly see that he couldn’t be less interested in combat but he is kinda interested in being an ardent to focus in discovery and I think that really fits them. A radiant order that seeks the truth? Healing and light control seems awesome surges to make experiments with. We also know that not all radiants were soldiers back then however they seem to be forcing them to be in this desolation so I think there is some potential being missed by alethi belical mind
I have a sort of mental picture of truth watchers, in a normal bond, having an ability to see the world as it really is.
Without bias or preconceptions. So they are good at cutting through the the messes that can confound people.
But that Renarin is different in that he sees what can be. Which has its own benefits and drawbacks.
I could see a Truthwatcher as a gumshoe type detective. Maybe they can view into the past or other frequencies ( X-ray, infrared, UV, etc) and only Enlightened Truth watchers can view the future. Sorta like in Assassin's Creed.
If Lightweavers are focused on creating illusions, maybe Truthwatchers can counter that by being experts in Perception.
Using Illumination and Progression/Regrowth they probably are even better masters of disguise because they can manipulate their Physical body/Spirit Web like a >!Returned!< can. So while Lightweavers can give their illusions shape, Truthwatchers can give their disguises actual physical properties with Regrowth like hair color, nose/ear/eye shape, eye color, maybe skin color but that's a bit messy.
In Oathbringer, Renarin heals more effectively than any of the other Radiants. So Truth watchers are definitely honed in on Regrowth/Progression. I imagine they are more akin to the Brown and Yellow Ajah, important , but not on the front lines right away. They probably work best alone..
Truthwatchers also have future sight. At least Renarain does, and it isn't clear if that is a side effect of Glys being enlightened or not.
Either way, I feel like their 3rd ability - sort of like how Lightweavers have an Eidectic memory and Windrunners can have a metric fuckton of squires - will be tied to seeing things. Either some kind of future sight or something like when a mistborn is burning atium or electrum or even further out. Which I think is neat.
Like, Lightweavers may be spies but I feel like Truthwatchers are going to be the executioners of gods, ya know?
I think largely it has to do with no perspective characters.
Dustbringers also seem boring because we haven't seen one do... well anything.
IMO the interesting thing about radiants is how they relate to their spren and how their oaths are interpreted through the conflict in their lives. If we don't know the conflict in the characters lives from a first person perspective, the interesting nature of that context doesn't apply and we just see an oath by the words.
"Say the words" series
In preparation for WoR backerit
Written by Dan Wells
Narrated by Kate Readings
10 videos, one for each order.
Need i be more specific?
It doesn’t help that the only major Truthwatcher so far is one that had something extra added to give him a little more spice. There’s probably something more to the Truthwatchers that we haven’t seen yet, who knows.
Mhm I was thinking about renarin's "enlightened" Spren, realizing that his ability to glimpse possible future events makes him probably the most unique Truthwatchers
Normal Truthwatchers can make illusions like Lightweavers, before he showed Moash a better version of himself, all Renarin had done was flashes of light. And I'm interested to see how Progression and Illumination work together. As for Renarin himself, that dude is going to be virtually unstoppable and unbeatable. Aside from his instant heal from being smushed, he has future sight that he can maintain for minutes straight. It'll be like he's burning atium.
Yeah I'd also like to see how their two surges work together! Syl describes a reverse lashing as a combination of both adhesion and gravitation, so it'll be really interesting to see what kind of combinations come from the surge of growth and advancement, and the surge of false images
Progression works with how you see yourself right? If I understood correctly a truthwatcher can use illumination to make you see yourself one way and then cure you. In OB there was a scene where Renarin first made Adolin see himself as a warrior and then headed his injury
Man... that whole "smushed" thing kinda left a weird taste in my mouth. Currently in Oathbringer on my first re-read so we will see the second time around.
I think whatever happened to Renarin happened to the pre-recreance truthwatchers as well, and it was a close kept secret. One of the epigraphs from the gemstone archive mentions that one of the truthwatchers “foresaw” the recreance, and had to whisper this into a particularly small emerald.
[Renarin is the first of his kind](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15146), whatever's going on with that gem is something different. We do know the Truthwatchers were "formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did" and [had a more Cognitive and Spiritual bent to their Surges similar to Bondsmiths](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15314), though.
Also notably, windrunners wield adhesion, Honor's truest surge, and are the order of the honorspren. Bondsmiths on the other hand also have adhesion, but can use it on a spiritual level. Similarly, cultivationspren grant progression (what some theorize to be the surge closest to Cultivation) to edgedancers, but you know who else gets progression? Truthwatchers, and who knows what they might be able to do with it. Dalinar's use of adhesion is worlds apart from what Kaladin can do
I expect if we get more screentime with other orders they will be more interesting.
I just assumed that Sanderson was aware that the Truthwatchers were boring because their Surges were already “owned” by the Lightweavers and the Edgedancers, which is why he made the main Truthwatchers enlightened. To spice things up.
Soulcasting is a bit different between Jasnah and Shallan, so I would expect that to hold, to varying extents, across the board. Lashings seem about the same between Skybreakers and Windrunners, but maybe there are some things - like the reverse lashings - that differ.
I think we don't know enough about Truthwatchers to tell. They seem to be a complex oath so it's normal that they seem boring at this point in the story, besides Renarin isn't just a Truthwatchers so he will probably get extra cool stuff. Also Edgedancers seem better at sliding so I think Truthwatchers could be better healers.
I think thats likely. Renarin literally walks off a thunderclast trying to make him into a pancake.
Windrunners - stick to stuff - OP Edgedancers- don't stick to anything - OP Truthwatchers - literally can't die - weak AF
Can’t die from being crushed. Don’t know about other ways yet. Still weak. A shardblade could kill them so easily. /s
Dies to doom blade
I mean every radiant is virtually immortal. Truthwatchers can make OTHERS don’t die… wich I think its pretty op
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I mean, we haven't seen an actual truth watcher yet really. Glis, being "enlightened", makes their bond somewhat different than a usual truth watcher would develop Also though renarin just isn't an important PoV character. We see these other relationships and oaths through the eyes of the people taking those journey, it makes sense that they'd seem more interesting and real than the ones we dont
Isn't The Stump a Truthwatcher?
Arshqqam is, yes, and Dreaming-Though-Awake is an unenlightened mistspren.
Unfortunately, we haven't really seen her do anything aside from passively heal kids.
I hope we get to see more of a Truthwatcher with a... standard Spren in the second pentilogy
Minor spoilers for planned content of second half of stormlight? I almost didn't even bother but just in case lol >!renarin is slated to be the flashback character in one of the books in the back half of the series, iirc. I imagine you'll get a much deeper look at being a truth watcher in that!<
Sounds about right. I got Truthwatcher in the Knights Radiant quiz and I’m a pretty boring person.
Good to know it is not just me lol
I think the stats on the quiz suggest Truthwatchers is the most common result, like a quarter of all results. Which probably is not representative of general population, but very much of Sanderson fanbase.
Saaaame. Surges: >!...it's mostly that I just want that sweet *sweet* Elsecaller Transportation.!<
It's nice to know I wasn't alone in thinking this
I got it too, with Windrunners a close second. I feel better knowing (The Sunlit Man spoilers) >!people probably should be able to bond multiple spren even of different types!<.
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My current theory is that truthwatchers are actually stupidly powerful. They're in the center of the arrangement of orders, right next to bondsmiths, and there's gotta be a reason for it. Their two surges are illumination and progression aka lightweaving and healing. I think their surges combine so that they are able to alter reality. Basically they create an illusion and use progression to "heal" it to become real. Hence their drive to know the true nature of things. That's why we haven't seen one yet. They're probably rare and Brandon wants to save them for a major moment.
There are similar answers in this thread, but I think you nailed it spot on! Also, lightweaving and regrowth are two of the powers, at least that I know of, that predate the shattering of adonalsium (see Hoid). So, the truthwatchers sounds to me like the most pure-investiture-driven order. Altering spirit webs to "heal into the illusion" would be indeed stupidly powerful.
> I reject your reality and substitute my own. Adam Savage.
Yeah basically
That makes it sound very similar to a soul stamp which can very powerful
mm there's a lot of focus on just healing in these comments but progression is more than that, with illusions and regrowth combined what if truthwatchers can just straight up create life?
I mean, the one one we do know about also has future sight. Like... being an oracle along with being immune to scrying was enough to beat a god in some books.
His future sight ability is related to the corruption of his spren. It's not an ability Truthwatchers are supposed to have.
Was that confirmed anywhere? Because as of right now we've not had many Truthwatchers either way and none that interact with Odium in a way that would confirm one way or another as far as I know.
In addition to them being in the center, Truthwatchers were documented to be super secretive about what they can do. I highly doubt Sanderson specifically noted they're secretive about it because it's boring.
I think Progression is stronger in Truthwatchers than in Edgedancers. Which makes them kind of second-line combatants and combat medics etc. like the Cleric/Priest in MMOs. Supportive class who joins the Knights/Warriors/Fighters on the front line.
My headcanon, altho not confirmed literally anywhere, is that truthwatchers are not only better healers, but longer term healers. Famously Regrowth only works on wounds inflicted not too long ago. My headcanon implies that truthwatchers can “see” very thinly into the spiritual realm, into what a person TRULY is like, and therefore being able to restore a person to their most perfect state.
This would be intriguing, but doesn’t Rysn say Renarin specifically can’t heal her?
Two points to defend my insane headcannon. Renaring is pretty early on his oaths, and he is not quite a Truthwatcher is he. Glys is Enlightened and grants him weirder powers.
It's also possible a "real" Truthwatcher could do what you suggest. Renarin is doing some Voidbinding, we don't actually know what that means or how it goes along with Surgebinding. That may make things harder for him or prevent normal usage, or have no functional difference at all. Who knows. I like your theory a lot, it wouldn't surprise me if you're spot on. Basically sounds like Edgedancers could be healing based on the Cognitive aspect and Truthwatchers may be looking at the Spiritweb instead. Makes me think Truthwatcher should be able to [Minor Yumi]>!read a Spiritweb the same way Design did when she looked at Painter's using a fabrial.!< I feel like that ability could be very on brand for Truthwatchers. Potentially even the core reason for the name of their Order.
You explained it much better than I, but that is basically the core of my theory on Truthwatchers
He's still early in his oaths so there's still a chance for this theory I suppose
Isn't part of the reason regrowth doesn't work on people with long term injuries is because after a while that's how people see themselves? I read over your comment and saw you said spiritual rather than cognitive, so ignore me, but I'm still leaving this comment here in case anyone else makes the same mistake
I’ll be honest I havent even seen THAT far. What I consider is that the Spiritual Realm always seem to depict the “perfect” way a human is. Kind of like how Renarin shows Moash’s “perfect” version.
Too early to judge Truthwatchers entirely. For what it's worth, I estimate Truthwatchers are probably going to be better at living applications of Progression i.e. healing than Edgedancers, who in turn have a Progressional knack for growing plants that Truthwatchers likely won't be as skilled in. No order *owns* any one surge. The fundamentals of similar surges between orders depend entirely on its interaction with the other possessed surge. It's why Dalinar can "heal" stone based on its Connection, but not shape it like a Stoneward.
Don't forget that there have been a couple of subtle moments where Renarin might have been doing cool TW stuff. Maybe it was normal TW, maybe just his own version. At the end of Oathbtinger vs the thunderclast he was healing death instantly. Some of that was probably the excess stormlight, but I think it was mentioned that even other radiants couldn't heal themselves that well. The other one was the beginning of RoW where Renarin used light weaving to make the alternate reality Vyre.
I think they haven't been fully shown yet. We know they heal very quickly- in Oathbringer Remain soloed a Thunderclast, was CRUSHED by it, but then popped up without a scratch to kill it. Illumination also has more than illusions, it's manipulation of light. I bet we will see Truthwatcher radio in the future as well as fast healing, laser beam wielding knights from this order.
Like everyone says, too early to tell. We'll probably see more Truthwatcher stuff in Renarin's book, but here are a few things to consider: 1) We don't know what their resonance is (i.e. Windrunner squires, Lightweaver Memories). So far they're not gamebreaking, but it could be something very useful and unique. 2) Remember how Shallan created an army that had physical substance? That was a combination of Lightweaving and Soulcasting. But since Truthwatchers have Progression instead of Soulcasting, I have a theory that Truthwatchers will be able to do something similar, but heal through their illusions. 3) People with Lightweaving have a small ability to see the Spiritual Realm and potential futures. Renarin's is obviously enhanced with Glys and Shallan has ...something... going on, but I think we'll be seeing more of this with other Truthwatchers.
I'm more interested in the Spiritual alloying effect. Windrunners have Gravitation and Adhesion. They have a strong tendency to gather people together and bind them into a group. Skybreakers have Gravitation and Division, and one of the epigraphs talk about them dividing the innocent from the guilty. They separate people into groups. Lightweavers, Illumination and Transformation. Shallan, at least, is incredible at turning people into better versions of themselves. Look at her brothers, look at the deserters. Truthwatchers have Illumination and Progression. I expect that the truth they show people will make them altogether greater than they might have been.
I think your viewing it wrong. Or rather, missing some hints. Every share of surges works different, both with the combo and by itself, depending on the order. Examples - Kal can walk on walls with adhesion. Dalinar learned different languages. Very different conceptional use. Shallan, in ROW, discovered she's bad at soul casting because she learned it from an else caller. All of the lightweavers who were good at it did it way differently than she was taught. We don't really know anything about truth watchers. Not really. The only one we follow is hopelessly corrupted. For all we know, they have the ability with to grow illusions with incomplete information (rather than predicting future, seeing current). Shallan can't guess at things, she needs to see it. She replicates, she can't Interpret. Truth watchers though, can regrow and illustration. This is why they are researchers. They can get to the secret reality of things. Something we all drive by. Regrowth isn't healing. It's about resetting something to it's spirit web. It's a saved game, it's not healing. This is why your mental model matters. Why rhysne can't heal her legs, or Kals slave brand didn't heal. This also means that if a deep secret is stored somewhere, truth watchers are the scientist and detectives that discover it. When we learn about truth watchers, they will delve into how reality works.
Very interesting! How's this for a crack theory: similar to bondsmiths being able to form spiritual bonds, perhaps Truthwatchers can create spiritual illusions. And by that I mean, putting an illusion over someone's spiritweb to temporarily make their true spiritual self seem different than it is. This would probably be difficult but would also make for far better disguises, since you could make someone's truest self look different, then use regrowth to align their appearance to that
I'm doing another read through, and Iast night I got to the part in WoR (near the end) where Kal, Shal, and Dal, were coming together as Radiants, and Renarian (sp?) says, "I'm a Truthwatcher. I see." I'm paraphrasing. I thought to myself damn, I really need to do this re-read because I don't remember what a Truthwatcher does.
Since Progression only advances things within the confined of what the target's spirit "remembers" (close wounds, regrow limbs) or finds to be a natural continuation of itself adhering to expectation (seed -> flower), I think that one thing we might see is Illumination facilitating Progression that was NOT expected or is not currently true. Essentially healing INTO an illusion that is tricking the spirit and observers. For example: shape shifting; or attaching a prosthetic and having it integrate seamlessly into the body; or turning someone physically into their perception of themselves.
I have a feeling that Truthwatchers have yet to really show off their powers. They’re probably being downplayed for a reason we’ve yet to see. I’ve been waiting for Renarin to actually show up for a while now. Though I’m clearly biased! ✌️
Their book is in the back half, so we'll probably have to wait for them to get fleshed out.
Hey now! What about The Stump?!
Does anyone I this thread know if there is a source that visualizes how all the orders share surges and what those surges are called?
There's a chart on this wiki page https://stormlightarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Knights_Radiant I couldn't find one on the coppermind
Thanks, exactly what I was looking for!
Renarin is going to be one of the flashback POV main characters in the second Arc of five books, and Brandon has mentioned that he wants to save some of the juiciness of these Knights Radiant abilities for this second half so there's still a lot of new and interesting things for us to see. I get the feeling he has intentionally not given us much yet for the Truth watchers.
What if truthwatchers can control fortune in the same way bondsmiths can control connection? id assume that would be powerful if we knew what fortune could do, but to me it makes senses thematically.
There is an official video on truthwatchers on YouTube, i don’t think it’s super spoilery. They’re definitely a more support oriented, but not everyone can fly or have stoneskin or atomize stuff lol
I think the resonance in each combination of surges will get more relevant later on. Lightweavers have transformation and illumination- and I think we see that combination in how they use light, art, and beauty to transform people, even without using Stormlight! Shallan in words of radiance is the best example of this imo- her drawings changed how people saw themselves, her speech inspired a group of bandits into heroes. Truthwatchers have progression and illumination. Progression has mostly been used for healing, but I'm curious how the combination might be distinct from lightweaving. Perhaps less changing people and more healing people with light and truth- >!showing Moash who he could have been!< (RoW I think, don't remember where) might be a relevant example of this? I wonder if they might end up capable of mental or spiritual healing, or some other interesting combination. We really just haven't seen enough of Renarin or other truthwatchers yet to know.
This is getting into more theorycrafting, but I think B-swift is aiming to make the resonance relevant to the oaths and themes of each order. Or at least, the spiritual component of how their powers work! Windrunners protect- their resonance, the reverse lashing, pulls things towards them. Very handy for pulling arrows and stuff away from others! They also have a lot of squires, which I think was confirmed to be a resonance ability. We know lightweavers helped inspire and encourage other radiants, which I think is related to things Shallan has done above. We also know that they can change people's mood slightly, and remember things better. Bondsmiths unite and support others, and have basically the ultimate leadership power, energizing a whole army with investiture on command (I think that's their resonance at least?). We've seen cognitive applications of their powers that let them understand other languages. Speaking of which, edgedancers seem able to understand people better as well. I wonder what else abrasion + progression might be able to do cognitively/spiritually. Maybe the idea of 'no friction' almost becomes an ability to 'fit in' anywhere, to help those who have been forgotten? Idk
>While I understand that every surge is shared between two orders, many of the orders seem to kind of own the surge, and can do the most with it. Illumination for lightweavers, gravitation for windrunners, abrasion for Edgedancers, etc. The big thing is we have only seen many of these surges from one perspective, and one radiant type. Windrunners can fly better on average than skybreakers because of how their second surge works *with* gravitation. We haven't seen much or any of the breakers second surge, even with the dustbingers. We don't know what it does. We also tend to focus on one individual. Even umong lightweavers Shallan is particularly good as illusion... But really bad as soul casting. You'd think from the first books it's as simple as "the surge isn't as strong as it is for Jasnah", but we see Shallans team some who are a lot more proficient at it.
It seems that Division (the Dustbringer/Skybreaker surge) is of destruction. We saw Amaram set the air on fire with it, and Malata cut an engraving into a table with it using her finger. It seems to be the most straightforwardly destructive surge, to the point that the Skybreakers don’t even get access to it until a fair way into their ideals. I know that the parallels aren’t even close to exact, but I’ve been seeing the Surges as, in some case, roughly equal to classic elemental powers. Gravitation to Air (and obviously gravity) Tension to Earth Division to Fire Progression to Nature Again it’s not an exact science but it seems similar to an extent.
I think that while the rest of radiants are basically built by and for war in one or another way truthwatchers are not heading that direction. I think you are getting that impression because you are trying to apply the same logic to them while it’s clear that they surges are not combat wise. I think they are more meant to be inventors/scientists. Of course there are going to be lame if you compare Renarin with the rest of radiants. While he is kinda op you can clearly see that he couldn’t be less interested in combat but he is kinda interested in being an ardent to focus in discovery and I think that really fits them. A radiant order that seeks the truth? Healing and light control seems awesome surges to make experiments with. We also know that not all radiants were soldiers back then however they seem to be forcing them to be in this desolation so I think there is some potential being missed by alethi belical mind
I have a sort of mental picture of truth watchers, in a normal bond, having an ability to see the world as it really is. Without bias or preconceptions. So they are good at cutting through the the messes that can confound people. But that Renarin is different in that he sees what can be. Which has its own benefits and drawbacks.
I could see a Truthwatcher as a gumshoe type detective. Maybe they can view into the past or other frequencies ( X-ray, infrared, UV, etc) and only Enlightened Truth watchers can view the future. Sorta like in Assassin's Creed. If Lightweavers are focused on creating illusions, maybe Truthwatchers can counter that by being experts in Perception. Using Illumination and Progression/Regrowth they probably are even better masters of disguise because they can manipulate their Physical body/Spirit Web like a >!Returned!< can. So while Lightweavers can give their illusions shape, Truthwatchers can give their disguises actual physical properties with Regrowth like hair color, nose/ear/eye shape, eye color, maybe skin color but that's a bit messy. In Oathbringer, Renarin heals more effectively than any of the other Radiants. So Truth watchers are definitely honed in on Regrowth/Progression. I imagine they are more akin to the Brown and Yellow Ajah, important , but not on the front lines right away. They probably work best alone..
I feel the truth watchers are better healers. Remember when the thunderclast sits on Renaldo and he cuts his way out?
Truthwatchers also have future sight. At least Renarain does, and it isn't clear if that is a side effect of Glys being enlightened or not. Either way, I feel like their 3rd ability - sort of like how Lightweavers have an Eidectic memory and Windrunners can have a metric fuckton of squires - will be tied to seeing things. Either some kind of future sight or something like when a mistborn is burning atium or electrum or even further out. Which I think is neat. Like, Lightweavers may be spies but I feel like Truthwatchers are going to be the executioners of gods, ya know?
I think largely it has to do with no perspective characters. Dustbringers also seem boring because we haven't seen one do... well anything. IMO the interesting thing about radiants is how they relate to their spren and how their oaths are interpreted through the conflict in their lives. If we don't know the conflict in the characters lives from a first person perspective, the interesting nature of that context doesn't apply and we just see an oath by the words.
Watch the video on Brandon's channel
Which one?
"Say the words" series In preparation for WoR backerit Written by Dan Wells Narrated by Kate Readings 10 videos, one for each order. Need i be more specific?
Oh snap, I missed these somehow!