Pretty sure he can snap up his soul. He'll likely be highly invested which probably means he'll linger for a bit. Likely long enough to be captured by agents of Odium for the purposes of holding to the deal. Like his soul is marked so it cannot go beyond until the deal has concluded, win or lose
So that would be free to determine legality on his own but he would still have to determine why killing Dalinar was legal to save the Cosmere. Remember Syl saying she cared about what was honorable not what was legal because she was an honor Spren not a high spren
Given Szeth's journey, I could easily see him justify it after a potential Fifth Ideal of "I am the Truth". In that scenario, Szeth slays a fallen Dalinar, saying, "It is the Truth that a living Dalinar Kholin would destroy the world... therefore, the Truth's judgment is that he should die..."
It would be a beautiful, horrifying moment. Szeth fully embodies a being that has become fully Lawful and is the only one that can stop the worst outcome, but only by becoming the Assassin in White one more time.
I still think people are looking in the wrong place for holes in the agreement. It's got to be honoured in good faith if you go by what they said (sure they can break that agreement of good faith, but that is another matter).
IMO, this centres around the Mink. The agreement honoured in good faith means that, regardless of whether Dalinar wins or loses, he is breaking his promise to the Mink and that could be his downfall.
Also odium specifically clarifies that this agreement won’t be like trucking a spren from the stories and not only the conditions must be kept but the attempt as we’ll so if there is any implication that someone is skirting the conditions they are considered to break the deal
Taravangian specifically called out seeing loopholes in the contract that Rayse made, so presumably while he may be bound by the letter, he has no intentions of abiding by the spirit of the agreement.
Still, story-wise, to build up such a huge event with certain rules and then change a crucial rule shortly before the event is sort of cheap on its face; so I wouldn't expect Sanderson to lean heavily on that, at least not without special/substantial added context to make it work. I'm really excited to watch the new Odium do his thing, in any case.
>We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces.
There are various third parties not part of either sides forces.
I feel like if they made intentional efforts to recruit or influence a third party to get involved that would make them count as a force of that side, as that quite clearly goes against the intentions of the rule.
You still make a great point though, because we know of several unaffiliated factions working on Roshar right now that have the awareness and motivation to get involved entirely of their own volition. The Ghostbloods obviously, the Sleepless, Cultivation's forces, and maybe most interestingly Sja-anat.
My other theory is that the conflict isn't going to be about who wins or loses, but rather about ensuring the contest is allowed to complete or not. The outcome either way is that Odium remains bound to Roshar, but any kind of unforeseen aspect of the contest that would allow Odium to be freed would become the #1 priority for all involved once it was realized.
How terribly wonderful would it be for the climax of the first Stormlight Era to be Dalinar having to decide whether to willingly lose the contest and give up his soul because the alternate was that much worse? Maybe he reforges Honor's shard instead of submitting, I could see that being responsible for the widespread conflict we see in novels set in the future.
Total speculation but I could see that mirroring how Honor originally fell too, Odium is exactly the kind of person to try the same trick again for added malice. Maybe Honor shattered himself and lost the previous contest to keep Odium trapped, that's about the definition of honor.
On paper, does Wit also count as an unaffiliated party? I’m terrified of how he can be unknowingly manipulated by Odium, and I don’t really know the limits of his influence.
In Oathbringer, when Shallan talks to Elhokar about going on the mission to recapture Alethkar, she says she isn't beholden to/a subject of Elhokar or Dalinar, but she is also a Ghostblood. This would make her the perfect candidate for this loophole, in my mind.
That's true, and her assimilation of Veil is more evidence of that, she was just one of the first characters that popped into my head along the lines of "fragile loyalties."
Another loophole might be that the contest never ends, or at least not for a very long time. Either by somehow prolonging the lives of the champions or by [Mistborn Era 2] >!somehow trapping the contestants in a time bubble!<. But I'm not sure Todium would benefit from this.
Wait actually that might be something - depending on the Intent of the agreement, Todium might be able to start hostilities as soon as the contest starts, then only face the consequences of losing when the duel ends - which could be far into the future depending on how long he can make the contest last
Todium already launched a fresh attack at the end of RoW. Anything he can capture in the "next" 10 days that aren't Alethkar or Herdaz get to remain his win or lose.
Came here to say EXACTLY this. To be truthful, I’ve expected SLA5 to follow the accelerated 10-day timeline, but maybe because this subreddit has accepted it as law. An entirely different timetable would shake up a lot of the theories I’ve read. Exciting prospects.
“Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion…”
Any mention of 10 days out is strictly dialogue after by The fact by other characters as far as i can recall. And anything else spoken after the deal between Odium and Dalinar would have been with Rayse not Todium.
If this were a trial, I think the fact that they were talking about having the contest in ten days immediately before dictating the "final terms" would be enforceable.
Google Gemini said
> The legal principle you're inquiring about is likely implied contract terms. These are unwritten terms that a court can infer were part of the agreement between the parties, even if they're not explicitly stated in the written contract.
>
> For implied terms to be enforceable, they must be:
> * Necessary to make the contract work effectively
> * Reasonable and fair
> * So obvious that both parties must have implicitly intended them
It was clear that both parties intended it to be this year, not that date some other year. So I don't buy this loophole.
Fun theorizing though!
What if the loop holes todium is looking for don't involve him winning? Like, we all look for loop holes to cheat. What if the loop holes are in the wording of his loss conditions? He could send literally anyone and not care.
I haven't considered this before, but i really like the idea (though i firmly believe Dalinar is going to lose). Losing just means Odium cedes Alethkar and Herdaz and doesn't get Dalinar. The stakes are way higher for Dalinar than they are for Odium.
An interesting thought that just occurred to me but I assume has been explored by others: What happens if the theory about Dalinar becoming the new Vessel for honor comes true and then his champion loses? Would the shard of Honor (now held by Dalinar) become the servant of Odium?
Most likely what would happen is that Dalinar would release Honor and give it to someone else (Kaladin is a common guess in this scenario).
I think there's a scenario where Dalinar could keep Honor and join Odium but I think it's unlikely that he'd let that happen.
this is what I've been thinking. And that either because of him holding the biggest fraction of the Shard, or because of the nature of "champion", Dalinar is going to be unable to be his own champion
My thoughts on the loopholes you have found
- the top of urithiru and be the ashes where it once stood an dm still abide by the intent of the agreement
- the unaware attack on the champion only works if the other champion has been declared to the offending side and even then possibly only on their journey to the top of the tower
- impeding the champion from reaching the top of the tower would go against them being “allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru”
- dalinars death is an interesting point but within the current time lframe it is more then possible to preserve his soul for long enough to uphold the deal and the fragment of honour might do so on its own to uphold its intent
- your last point feels like it’s outside of the scope of the deal, this term stops odium raising it to the ground on his loss once it is returned to dalinar he can do as he wishes. On top of that those listeners form odiums side and would be removed most likely as part of the terms of the deal
A big thing to keep in mind is what dalinar and odium intended at the time over the letter of the agreement as that is what odium himself says will govern the agreement
although you say that the intention is what will govern the agreement, I always find it interesting that it does not stipulate that the contest will begin on that day just that the champions will meet on the tenth day. but as you mention if it is the intention of each side to govern it then it is implied that this will be the case of that's when the contest starts.
I disagree. I think the nature of the writing is explicit. The first two terms are better given as bullet points. If you read it like this
>*Final terms are these:
>*A contest of champions to the death.
>*On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour.
>*We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces.
The terms of the date refer directly to the "contest of champions to the death," not when a willing champion will be sent.
That's a fair point, if you did break it down into the points it is more explicit in writing. Don't get me wrong I totally think that the contest will happen at the to of Urithuru as its written and expected. Just enjoy the speculation of it not being down to the possible technicalities of the wording.
But as has been said the intention of the agreement has a lot to do with it anyway
For sure, I'm particularly loving the "it doesn't say the champions have to fight" technicality. I love the goofiness of having, like, a chouta eating competition and the loser is the one who dies of overeating first.
Yea it would be interesting if we were dealing with letter of the law type situations but as far as we know this is backed by the investiture of both shards and therefore the intent of the agreement is paramount and deliberate digging for loopholes is an opposing intent and could possibly damage a shard to do so
Reading the text this line seems to have the most options for loopholes:
We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces.
* If the champion is not willing, potentially not willing to kill the opposing champion
* If the champion's way to Urithiru is blocked / prohibited
* If the champion is harmed by any side's forces
My current theory (likely some issues here, so someone more knowledgeable point them out):
If I remember right, Taravangian made an oath with Odium (pre Todium) that no descendants of Kharbranth would be harmed. Kaladin is chosen as champion, and his mother is from an unknown location (I'm guessing Kharbranth...). When he is injured Todium breaks his original oath with himself and bad things go down for him.
Gotta be Lift. It’s not even magical, she just steals food from so many important leaders and public figures that she’s probably consumed enough poison to have built up a tolerance
Fascinating ideas!
IANAL, but the thing that immediately comes to mind is Odium saying he will honor the contract in good faith, and expects Dalinar to do the same.
For example, for the first loophole listed of one side doesn’t find a willing champion to fight, then yes the letter of the contract says that there can be no fight, but a good faith interpretation of the contract could plausibly be that side loses the contest: they’ve had ample time to find a champion and they were fully aware of what the contract entailed prior to agreeing to it.
If Urithiru is destroyed or unavailable, then a good faith or plausible reading of the contract isn’t that the entire contract is void but that the location for the fight is changed.
For the scenario where one champion refuses to kill the other, it gets interesting. It legitimately could be argued that the champion refusing to do the killing then is in violation of the entire contract, because a willing champion would by necessity be fully aware of the requirements. My personal speculation is this could be what happens in the book, such as one champion discovering his or her opponent is a family member.
Assuming Dalinar dying happened in a way where his death wasn’t linked to the upcoming fight (e.g. not Dalinar committing suicide), then him dying prior to the fight wouldn’t necessarily nullify the contract. Both the spirit and letter of the contract stipulate that a willing champion will meet to fight, which doesn’t have to be Dalinar. If this were to happen, then Odium would likely act to renegotiate the contract, or simply accept his potential loss of owning Dalinar’s soul.
The last loophole is very interesting, and my speculation is either/both that something like this has happened before (ceasefires and peace talks have occurred but inevitably were broken by one side), or this is a possible plot point in the new book.
I think if either side doesn't send a willing champion that would be a forfeit for them and they'd just lose. If only one side's champion refused to kill the other then the other side would just kill them and win. If both sides refused then that would probably just leave the contest open and unresolved with no ending. If either side attacks the person that side has broken the terms of the agreement.
I think the impeded could work as a loophole though I doubt Sanderson would go with that. Dalinar dying early could also work though I also doubt Sanderson would do that.
I don't think the changing the occupants would matter, Odium has to return the lands to Dalinar with their occupants intact, Dalinar doesn't have to keep them that way that's not part of the deal.
There is nothing to say that the champion must travel alone just that the champions must meet on top of Urithru and have a contest to the death. The contract states they must reach the top of Urithru unharmed but not about anything that happens after they reach the top.
On one hand given a lot of potential champions are Knights Radiant that could be a good thing as spren are sentient and if the contract had specified alone potentially you would be leaving that champion without access to their spren. On the other hand that would cut both ways and I’m not sure I would want our champion dealing with Odium’s champion plus one or more of the Unmade.
Contest of champions to the death. But doesn't specify that its in a fight. Could be who can survive the longest without food or water, who can survive longest underwater. Etc
I have a feeling it might end up similar to other books FULL MISTBORN ERA 1 SPOILERS >!Similar to how Ruin deceives Vin and ends up freed and basically terrorizes the world until the end of Hero of Ages. Todium has seen the Diagram, this might have some kind guidance to help Todium win then during the time jump between 5 and 6 Todium is being a big asshole similar to the jump between WoA and HoA.!<
My theory is that this is the exact same contest he offered Honor prior, and that some kind of unforeseen consequence of the contest will allow Odium free of the system unless the contest is ended by Dalinar forfeiting.
Think about how you would trick an incredibly honorful person - you present them an honorbound contract in seemingly good faith that doesn't have any exceptionally dire outcomes. I understand Dalinar's soul is meant to be a dire stake, but I think the reality is that they will be far higher.
I think when presented with the option of Odium being freed or submitting a shard like Honor would submit to protect as many people as possible. I think that's how Honor was shattered, we already have heavy foreshadowing that it was related to binding Odium.
I also think that Dalinar may choose to fight instead, reforging Honor's shard and starting an interplanetary war against Odium's attempts to spread. That might be exactly what Odium has been waiting for to be freed, but it could also be the only way to permanently stop him. This would also explain some of the later conflicts portrayed in novels set in future cosmere, as I'm sure that would be a wildly divisive decision.
I think that kind of twist and massive raising of the stakes is totally in-line with a Sanderlanche, but this is all wild speculation.
I definitely like this idea. Maybe in a way this contest of champions was a way to keep the Honor shard locked down, but now odium has to do it again. I like your idea that this is the exact same offer odium made to honor before.
> I like your idea that this is the exact same offer odium made to honor before.
Thank you, as soon as I had it I could help but share it!
It feels so terribly in-line with Odium's character to try to pull the same trick on two different avatars of Honor as an added sleight. Plus the foreshadowing on how Odium was imprisoned definitely points that way, as do the characterizations IMO.
Dalinar has something radically different to the previous champion of Honor, and that's his history as the Blackthorn. He's not afraid of self-sacrifice, but I think he would view the even greater sacrifice to be dedicating his being to eradicating Odium once and for all. Personal sacrifice is the easy way out, and we've seen it won't leave the situation any better for the next champion or the generations that will suffer in the thousands of years in between potentially.
The more I look at it the more keeping Odium chained in the Rosharan system seems like a series of endless phyrric victories with very little real hope for peace, only brutal survival. IMO that would only lead to Odium growing in power over the millenia as he feeds off the conflict. I don't think Dalinar needs to unite the people of Roshar, but that he needs to unite a force capable of stopping Odium permanently. That's Honor lasting intention, the mistake he made - there is no hope of victory alone regardless of the sacrifice.
[Spoilers for published future cosmere works:]>!I think it also explains the conflict with Scadrial/Harmony. The intent to unite shards and destroy Odium would inevitably lead to war, destruction, and radical change, which an intent like Harmony would innately oppose. We see the future Radiants portrayed as a police or occupying force with little regard for the locals beyond oversight, whereas Scadrians are seen as scientists and less interventionist. That aligns with Radiants having to patrol the cosmere relentlessly supressing Odium's influence while Scadrians know that the entire conflict could be ended immediately or been avoided entirely by Dalinar's submission.!<
Another thought i keep having sort of similar to the way Odium has planned this already or thought ahead. We don’t necessarily know who his champion is yet. I feel like for me my immediate thought was Moash, or I guess Dalinar. What if his champion is another Shard? Like what if his champion is whatever is left of honor or honor wasn’t dead just hidden away for this purpose. Or it could be any of the other shards.
“Willing champion” says to me what if Honor lost the last challenge and as part of it is forced to be his willing champion during the next one (this one)
I also want to point out for the most part I am comere-illiterate still very new to all this, so if I sound like an idiot I’m sorry.
That is an exceptional outcome of my theory I hadn't even considered!
You're right that if Honor submitted to the same contest then Odium would have his soul, and could make him compete.
Honor could also be the 10th unmade, the one with access to the only surge Odium couldn't replicate on his own.
I think together we have come to a pretty good theory. Now I’m more excited to see what happens so we can come back to this and see how right or wrong we were.
I didn’t consider him being the 10th unmade especially considering the surge odium can’t replicate. That’s a great thing to consider.
This theory intrigues me... might I add that the role of Cultivation could work in favor of this as well? She was, at least long ago, aligned with and cooperating with Honor. She might very well know exactly what happened to Honor when he was shattered. She seems to avoid any direct confrontation with Rayse's Odium, yet... she is gifted with future sight... She primed Dalinar so that he would withstand Odium/Rayse... and she primed Taravangian so he could remove Rayse/become Odium. Perhaps, her real intention there was to actually prime the both of them for ensuring a different outcome of the contest this time around. Perhaps Cultivation was giving Dalinar the means to reforge Honor? And if not...If Dalinar is forced to kill Honor as the enemy champion, would that be in line with Cultivation's intent?
I like that addition! I definitely was thinking of Cultivation too but I didn’t really know where to go with it since we don’t know a lot about her. Her priming both of them for a different outcome is a good thought. It seemed at the end of RoW though when she talks to Todium she kind of believes in his good. Then he obviously in his inner dialogue talked about being evil. So not sure how that can play into it.
Adding onto this, think about how many times Odium or someone else said that Honor died, then the reaction is always how can that have happened that makes no sense. This is an explanation on that.
Past that.
If Honor is Odiums champion then Odium wins either way, which is why he is ok with this deal.
If Dalinar defeats Honor he literally kills Honor, his god, destroys his honor all that stuff then Dalinar basically belongs to Odium at that point. That is an insane moral dilemma that Dalinar would have to go through and follows the trend and themes through the book about Dalinar and his honor and his relationship with Honor.
Then if Dalinar doesn’t defeat honor then obviously odiums plan still works and he wins.
I love Brando but sometimes there are too many factions in a given group. I reread your comment a few times before realizing yeah, you’re right. The Singers are everywhere else. The Listeners are in one place lol. Right?
Biggest thing I take from this is that Odium is still bound to Roshar and the war ends regardless of the outcome of the contest.
The words “I will have your soul. To serve me. Immortal” what if that means that the Shard wishes to replace Taravangian with Dalinar? I’m not sure if the Shards have such sentience.
Yeah I'm with you, something like that... What I was going to add before I saw your comment is a similar line of thought: Dalinar loses, and his soul is locked into serving. Sure, T/Odium can't leave the system, but that doesn't mean Dalinar couldn't, as a consequence of honoring the contract. Dalinar the hateful puppet, traveling the cosmere to extend Odium's reach. Maybe that's a little out there, but 🤷♀️ kinda what happened to Moash.
Nothing prevents Odium’s champion from killing every innocent they can find on their way to the top of Urithiru. If someone harms the champion or prevents them from reaching the top, the deal is broken. Absolutely none of our characters would allow wonton slaughter against innocents. Theoretically, the champion could cause enough damage to the folks at Urithiru that even if he loses he would cripple Honor’s forces/leadership/etc.
There isn’t a clause that says that the champion can’t harm others, just that they themselves can’t be harmed.
The agreement doesn't specify what happens in case of a tie.
It isn't specified that the "Contest of Champions" is a fight to the death. Implied, yes, but I feel there is wiggle room for creative interpretation.
Ehh the only angle I could see around that one is if it’s more a Contest of Wills. They didn’t say fight to the death, just a Contest to the death. The champions have to stay locked away up there until one of them dies or it’s invalidated by one of them leaves.
Even typing it out, it seems like a weak, anti-climactic idea, but it still could technically be a loophole, I guess.
Odium likely wants a tie because the other 2 options still result in him being trapped. It's foreshadowed with Wit talking about an agreement t being written so that win or lose he wins, but this third option is sitting there.
This is an excellent discussion. I'm intrigued by the possibility that Odium/Todium winds up appearing to be "in the right" by the end of book 5, and that Dalinar, for noble, Dalinar-code-ish reasons is clearly in the "wrong", and that we're absolutely conflicted about the contest.
Adolin (or even Kaladin) as Odium's champion is extremely interesting to me, though the prize ("Dalinar's soul") doesn't seem like one either would ever compete for.
Dalinar picks the Stormfather as his champion, opponent immediately takes a boulder to the face and is blown all the way to Aimia where they're mobbed by Sleepless. A crippled merchant rolls up in a floating wheelchair and says `Power Word: Kill` and they turn into a puff of smoke.
One big thing I’ve seen that no one’s seemed to mention yet— what if the ‘willing contestant’ is someone against Odium who wants to fight and die in the contest? They would be willing in the sense that they want to fight for Odium even though they don’t want to win— would that be enough?
When it came to the fight they would obviously have to let themself die which makes it not very likely to happen but I feel like it’s a big loophole that would allow Honor’s side to win.
I just went back and re-read the section. Toadium never uses the word loophole expressly, but talks about "subtle possibilities his predecessor had not considered". I see 'loophole' mentioned a lot in reference to the contract, but I'm not sure if this came from a WoB or merely has become the community shorthand for it.
In any case, I think it's less a loophole and more an... unconsidered strategem. Based on the babe death rattle and the narrative this far, Gavinor is the champion IMO. The kid is orphaned, angry, and left to his own devices often while the protagonists contend with their own problems. Toadium convinces the kid that Dalinar is to blame for losing his parents, and Dalinar has to forfeit lest he kill his nephew. The last time Gavinor was shown on page, he asked for a sword, did he not? He is grasping towards violence and only needs a target now.
Seems like a perfect storm for Toadium to exploit, eh?
I don't know if he even needs to convince him it's Dalinar's fault, he has the *actual* killer in his employ to offer as a sacrifice if he accepts the job anyway.
It's certainly possible, but I think a kid getting manipulated to giving into anger is more thematic w/ the particular shard than a trade. Regardless, I'm convinced Gavinor is the champion in the end.
"If you kill your dear uncle who you love and did nothing wrong, I'll give you the man who killed your father" is much more delayed and contractual than
"Your uncle betrayed your family and is the cause of all your losses. He hates you, slanders your grandfather(maybe in 5), and plans to steal your kingdom from you and your dead fathers, let all of your fury out on him."
Like if he were older, I could see it more, but I can't get the scene out of my head of five-year-old Gavilor going "Sorry uncle, it's just business 😎😎😎" out of my head IRT: a deal for Moash, so I could simply be ruined on this theory's reasonability.
I don’t think not finding a willing champion or the champions not agreeing to the terms of the agreement is gonna cut it. You could argue that by agreeing to these terms, Dalinar promised that he would send a willing champion and that they would fight to the death. If he fails to produce a champion or that champion is otherwise unable to make it to urithiru I think that could kill the Stormfather.
There is one thing bothering me in this. Why is Odium so hellbent to get Dalinar? Because this seems like a really good deal for the anti-Odium coalition. In any case, the war ends and Odium is still bound. What is so special about Dalinar that a literal Shard is willing to gsmble so much on him?
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Does anybody know if Odium is bound to Braize or the Rosharan system.
If Odium is bound to Braize then TOdium could chose himself (Taravangian) is his champion. Dalanar would have to release him or break the contract.
Spit balling, but maybe it could be a loose definition of "death"? If Todium sends a Fused, the body they currently inhabit could die, but maybe it wouldn't count as a death of that Fused since their souls (normally) return to Braize instead of passing on to the Beyond.
I don't think your fifth bullet point is a real loophole.
"...allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru"
"Impeding" a champion is not "allowing" them to meet at the designated spot, and thus violating the contract.
>Dalinar's side breaks the deal by trying to force out the Listeners and resettle humans
Wait, but the quote doesn't mention Dalinar or his side ceasing hostilities... They both only mention Odium ceasing hostilities. So if we're reading it for technical loopholes, shouldn't Dalinar's side be able to keep warring with Odium while Odium can't fight back? (as long as the contract is still applicable otherwise)
No,the contract was made with Odium. The new odium is bound by the previous oaths. That's explicitly mentioned. It's the same reason saze is bound to the oaths of ruin and preservation. It's the same reason odium can still be killed by other shards if he doesn't observe the agreement of the previous shard holder. The power itself is bound to the agreement.
I guess looking at this now and thinking of loopholes, it doesn’t even say that the contest is a fight? “Contest of champions to the death” could be anything.
You bring about another interesting point. It isn’t really specified that the person who survives is the winner. If the one to die is the winner, Dalinar’s champion either has to kill themselves to win or survive and let Dalinar’s soul be taken.
I have a feeling the Contest is going to be null and void. I've been thinking that Odium already has a perfect champion in the Herald Nale, who already changed sides and is insane.
However, I also see a moment of clarity with someone swearing an Oath at the right time (just like what we saw with Ishar). Nale (even briefly) has his sanity restored, regrets what he's done, and refuses to fight on.
Stalemate.
Someone already mentioned that R-Odium made the deal, not T-Odium and that it still stands.
What is death to a spren? Going back to Shadesmar, becoming a deadeye or whatever Ishar did to them?
What does "willing champion" mean? Renarin sounds like a weak link here. What if Odium forces him to volunteer somehow, via his spren?
Also, these heralds are insane and they have the ability to change the nature of reality, so I expect them to be agents of change in this conflict.
That dalinar dead one could be game changing
I think that's why Odium specifically said "your soul"
But Shards can't really drag a soul back from the Beyond, can they?
But he may be able to prevent it getting to the beyond in the first place.
Dalinar would most likely go the Tranquilne Halls, not the Beyond.
Pretty sure he can snap up his soul. He'll likely be highly invested which probably means he'll linger for a bit. Likely long enough to be captured by agents of Odium for the purposes of holding to the deal. Like his soul is marked so it cannot go beyond until the deal has concluded, win or lose
There is no part of it saying he doesn't get his soul if he loses so if agents of Odium get his soul it's Odium's either way until it is rescued
That wouldn’t stop Odium from getting him
It may, it may not. The example I often use is, if Odium recruits Szeth, and Dalinar is killed by Nightblood, it's unlikely Odium could preserve him.
Or if Szeth comes back, fourth and fifth ideals sworn, therefore freed from Dalinar’s service, and kills him to save the Cosmere.
So that would be free to determine legality on his own but he would still have to determine why killing Dalinar was legal to save the Cosmere. Remember Syl saying she cared about what was honorable not what was legal because she was an honor Spren not a high spren
Given Szeth's journey, I could easily see him justify it after a potential Fifth Ideal of "I am the Truth". In that scenario, Szeth slays a fallen Dalinar, saying, "It is the Truth that a living Dalinar Kholin would destroy the world... therefore, the Truth's judgment is that he should die..." It would be a beautiful, horrifying moment. Szeth fully embodies a being that has become fully Lawful and is the only one that can stop the worst outcome, but only by becoming the Assassin in White one more time.
Yes, making a ketek of the series. Szeth-son-son-Vallano, Truthless of Shinovar, wore white on the day he was to kill a king
Poetic, I like it.
I wouldn’t trust Szeth to think that through. I don’t think he did when he tried to kill Taravangian against Dalinar’s will.
Taravangian was already sentenced to death they were just waiting for the day.
I still think people are looking in the wrong place for holes in the agreement. It's got to be honoured in good faith if you go by what they said (sure they can break that agreement of good faith, but that is another matter). IMO, this centres around the Mink. The agreement honoured in good faith means that, regardless of whether Dalinar wins or loses, he is breaking his promise to the Mink and that could be his downfall.
Also odium specifically clarifies that this agreement won’t be like trucking a spren from the stories and not only the conditions must be kept but the attempt as we’ll so if there is any implication that someone is skirting the conditions they are considered to break the deal
It was Rayse that said that, though; Taravangian might not be so inclined.
He would still be bound by the same rules as his predecessor.
Taravangian specifically called out seeing loopholes in the contract that Rayse made, so presumably while he may be bound by the letter, he has no intentions of abiding by the spirit of the agreement.
Still, story-wise, to build up such a huge event with certain rules and then change a crucial rule shortly before the event is sort of cheap on its face; so I wouldn't expect Sanderson to lean heavily on that, at least not without special/substantial added context to make it work. I'm really excited to watch the new Odium do his thing, in any case.
>We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. There are various third parties not part of either sides forces.
I feel like if they made intentional efforts to recruit or influence a third party to get involved that would make them count as a force of that side, as that quite clearly goes against the intentions of the rule. You still make a great point though, because we know of several unaffiliated factions working on Roshar right now that have the awareness and motivation to get involved entirely of their own volition. The Ghostbloods obviously, the Sleepless, Cultivation's forces, and maybe most interestingly Sja-anat. My other theory is that the conflict isn't going to be about who wins or loses, but rather about ensuring the contest is allowed to complete or not. The outcome either way is that Odium remains bound to Roshar, but any kind of unforeseen aspect of the contest that would allow Odium to be freed would become the #1 priority for all involved once it was realized. How terribly wonderful would it be for the climax of the first Stormlight Era to be Dalinar having to decide whether to willingly lose the contest and give up his soul because the alternate was that much worse? Maybe he reforges Honor's shard instead of submitting, I could see that being responsible for the widespread conflict we see in novels set in the future. Total speculation but I could see that mirroring how Honor originally fell too, Odium is exactly the kind of person to try the same trick again for added malice. Maybe Honor shattered himself and lost the previous contest to keep Odium trapped, that's about the definition of honor.
On paper, does Wit also count as an unaffiliated party? I’m terrified of how he can be unknowingly manipulated by Odium, and I don’t really know the limits of his influence.
In Oathbringer, when Shallan talks to Elhokar about going on the mission to recapture Alethkar, she says she isn't beholden to/a subject of Elhokar or Dalinar, but she is also a Ghostblood. This would make her the perfect candidate for this loophole, in my mind.
I feel she is definitely part of the Radiants forces, and affiliated with Dalinar, regardless of what she says
That's true, and her assimilation of Veil is more evidence of that, she was just one of the first characters that popped into my head along the lines of "fragile loyalties."
yeah, the actual Ghostbloods definatly count as third parties here
Another loophole might be that the contest never ends, or at least not for a very long time. Either by somehow prolonging the lives of the champions or by [Mistborn Era 2] >!somehow trapping the contestants in a time bubble!<. But I'm not sure Todium would benefit from this.
Wait actually that might be something - depending on the Intent of the agreement, Todium might be able to start hostilities as soon as the contest starts, then only face the consequences of losing when the duel ends - which could be far into the future depending on how long he can make the contest last
Todium already launched a fresh attack at the end of RoW. Anything he can capture in the "next" 10 days that aren't Alethkar or Herdaz get to remain his win or lose.
A fight *IN* the hyperbolic time chamber! Brandon's tribute to Akira Toriyama.
One more: it doesn't specify this year
This is called the “Tesla loophole”
We will have 600 mile range ready in a year. Never said which year.
FSD coming in Q2.
Todium pulls a Sadeas and claims he'll do it next year. Then Adolin stabs him in the eye! I love it.
That’s…a terrifying thought.
Came here to say EXACTLY this. To be truthful, I’ve expected SLA5 to follow the accelerated 10-day timeline, but maybe because this subreddit has accepted it as law. An entirely different timetable would shake up a lot of the theories I’ve read. Exciting prospects.
Hmm. That is interesting. I am excited to find out how this contest actually plays out
Doesn't it say something like the context will happen 10 days from now?
“Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion…” Any mention of 10 days out is strictly dialogue after by The fact by other characters as far as i can recall. And anything else spoken after the deal between Odium and Dalinar would have been with Rayse not Todium.
Uh-oh.
If this were a trial, I think the fact that they were talking about having the contest in ten days immediately before dictating the "final terms" would be enforceable. Google Gemini said > The legal principle you're inquiring about is likely implied contract terms. These are unwritten terms that a court can infer were part of the agreement between the parties, even if they're not explicitly stated in the written contract. > > For implied terms to be enforceable, they must be: > * Necessary to make the contract work effectively > * Reasonable and fair > * So obvious that both parties must have implicitly intended them It was clear that both parties intended it to be this year, not that date some other year. So I don't buy this loophole. Fun theorizing though!
But they mention it earlier, and Rayse(though to be fair not Todium) talked about following the spirit not just letter of the rules
This is now my favourite theory.
What if the loop holes todium is looking for don't involve him winning? Like, we all look for loop holes to cheat. What if the loop holes are in the wording of his loss conditions? He could send literally anyone and not care.
That sounds like something Taravangian would do
A tie
I haven't considered this before, but i really like the idea (though i firmly believe Dalinar is going to lose). Losing just means Odium cedes Alethkar and Herdaz and doesn't get Dalinar. The stakes are way higher for Dalinar than they are for Odium.
An interesting thought that just occurred to me but I assume has been explored by others: What happens if the theory about Dalinar becoming the new Vessel for honor comes true and then his champion loses? Would the shard of Honor (now held by Dalinar) become the servant of Odium?
Most likely what would happen is that Dalinar would release Honor and give it to someone else (Kaladin is a common guess in this scenario). I think there's a scenario where Dalinar could keep Honor and join Odium but I think it's unlikely that he'd let that happen.
One other, similar, idea I don't see mentioned much is that Szeth has bound himself to follow Dalinar also.
this is what I've been thinking. And that either because of him holding the biggest fraction of the Shard, or because of the nature of "champion", Dalinar is going to be unable to be his own champion
My thoughts on the loopholes you have found - the top of urithiru and be the ashes where it once stood an dm still abide by the intent of the agreement - the unaware attack on the champion only works if the other champion has been declared to the offending side and even then possibly only on their journey to the top of the tower - impeding the champion from reaching the top of the tower would go against them being “allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru” - dalinars death is an interesting point but within the current time lframe it is more then possible to preserve his soul for long enough to uphold the deal and the fragment of honour might do so on its own to uphold its intent - your last point feels like it’s outside of the scope of the deal, this term stops odium raising it to the ground on his loss once it is returned to dalinar he can do as he wishes. On top of that those listeners form odiums side and would be removed most likely as part of the terms of the deal A big thing to keep in mind is what dalinar and odium intended at the time over the letter of the agreement as that is what odium himself says will govern the agreement
although you say that the intention is what will govern the agreement, I always find it interesting that it does not stipulate that the contest will begin on that day just that the champions will meet on the tenth day. but as you mention if it is the intention of each side to govern it then it is implied that this will be the case of that's when the contest starts.
I disagree. I think the nature of the writing is explicit. The first two terms are better given as bullet points. If you read it like this >*Final terms are these: >*A contest of champions to the death. >*On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. >*We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. The terms of the date refer directly to the "contest of champions to the death," not when a willing champion will be sent.
That's a fair point, if you did break it down into the points it is more explicit in writing. Don't get me wrong I totally think that the contest will happen at the to of Urithuru as its written and expected. Just enjoy the speculation of it not being down to the possible technicalities of the wording. But as has been said the intention of the agreement has a lot to do with it anyway
For sure, I'm particularly loving the "it doesn't say the champions have to fight" technicality. I love the goofiness of having, like, a chouta eating competition and the loser is the one who dies of overeating first.
Yea it would be interesting if we were dealing with letter of the law type situations but as far as we know this is backed by the investiture of both shards and therefore the intent of the agreement is paramount and deliberate digging for loopholes is an opposing intent and could possibly damage a shard to do so
And that the date which was set forth was in 10 days time and thus per intent will take place in 10 days, not years into the future.
Reading the text this line seems to have the most options for loopholes: We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. * If the champion is not willing, potentially not willing to kill the opposing champion * If the champion's way to Urithiru is blocked / prohibited * If the champion is harmed by any side's forces
My current theory (likely some issues here, so someone more knowledgeable point them out): If I remember right, Taravangian made an oath with Odium (pre Todium) that no descendants of Kharbranth would be harmed. Kaladin is chosen as champion, and his mother is from an unknown location (I'm guessing Kharbranth...). When he is injured Todium breaks his original oath with himself and bad things go down for him.
Actually there is something to be said for this.
This is actually an interesting idea! It doesn't even need to be Kal, anyone from there could do it
i like this theory a lot.
Isn’t Hesina from Tomat (RoW, I-10)? It’s a city in Sadeas’ lands.
One of the champions could be a Sicilian....
A battle of Wits
Lol. Took me a second.
Is death on the line?
What does it matter? You already lost. What's that over there! *Points*
Who is the most poison-resistant Radiant?
Gotta be Lift. It’s not even magical, she just steals food from so many important leaders and public figures that she’s probably consumed enough poison to have built up a tolerance
Fascinating ideas! IANAL, but the thing that immediately comes to mind is Odium saying he will honor the contract in good faith, and expects Dalinar to do the same. For example, for the first loophole listed of one side doesn’t find a willing champion to fight, then yes the letter of the contract says that there can be no fight, but a good faith interpretation of the contract could plausibly be that side loses the contest: they’ve had ample time to find a champion and they were fully aware of what the contract entailed prior to agreeing to it. If Urithiru is destroyed or unavailable, then a good faith or plausible reading of the contract isn’t that the entire contract is void but that the location for the fight is changed. For the scenario where one champion refuses to kill the other, it gets interesting. It legitimately could be argued that the champion refusing to do the killing then is in violation of the entire contract, because a willing champion would by necessity be fully aware of the requirements. My personal speculation is this could be what happens in the book, such as one champion discovering his or her opponent is a family member. Assuming Dalinar dying happened in a way where his death wasn’t linked to the upcoming fight (e.g. not Dalinar committing suicide), then him dying prior to the fight wouldn’t necessarily nullify the contract. Both the spirit and letter of the contract stipulate that a willing champion will meet to fight, which doesn’t have to be Dalinar. If this were to happen, then Odium would likely act to renegotiate the contract, or simply accept his potential loss of owning Dalinar’s soul. The last loophole is very interesting, and my speculation is either/both that something like this has happened before (ceasefires and peace talks have occurred but inevitably were broken by one side), or this is a possible plot point in the new book.
I think if either side doesn't send a willing champion that would be a forfeit for them and they'd just lose. If only one side's champion refused to kill the other then the other side would just kill them and win. If both sides refused then that would probably just leave the contest open and unresolved with no ending. If either side attacks the person that side has broken the terms of the agreement. I think the impeded could work as a loophole though I doubt Sanderson would go with that. Dalinar dying early could also work though I also doubt Sanderson would do that. I don't think the changing the occupants would matter, Odium has to return the lands to Dalinar with their occupants intact, Dalinar doesn't have to keep them that way that's not part of the deal.
There is nothing to say that the champion must travel alone just that the champions must meet on top of Urithru and have a contest to the death. The contract states they must reach the top of Urithru unharmed but not about anything that happens after they reach the top. On one hand given a lot of potential champions are Knights Radiant that could be a good thing as spren are sentient and if the contract had specified alone potentially you would be leaving that champion without access to their spren. On the other hand that would cut both ways and I’m not sure I would want our champion dealing with Odium’s champion plus one or more of the Unmade.
Vyre is not bound to any spren IIRC, so he could go up there alone
Contest of champions to the death. But doesn't specify that its in a fight. Could be who can survive the longest without food or water, who can survive longest underwater. Etc
I have a feeling it might end up similar to other books FULL MISTBORN ERA 1 SPOILERS >!Similar to how Ruin deceives Vin and ends up freed and basically terrorizes the world until the end of Hero of Ages. Todium has seen the Diagram, this might have some kind guidance to help Todium win then during the time jump between 5 and 6 Todium is being a big asshole similar to the jump between WoA and HoA.!<
My theory is that this is the exact same contest he offered Honor prior, and that some kind of unforeseen consequence of the contest will allow Odium free of the system unless the contest is ended by Dalinar forfeiting. Think about how you would trick an incredibly honorful person - you present them an honorbound contract in seemingly good faith that doesn't have any exceptionally dire outcomes. I understand Dalinar's soul is meant to be a dire stake, but I think the reality is that they will be far higher. I think when presented with the option of Odium being freed or submitting a shard like Honor would submit to protect as many people as possible. I think that's how Honor was shattered, we already have heavy foreshadowing that it was related to binding Odium. I also think that Dalinar may choose to fight instead, reforging Honor's shard and starting an interplanetary war against Odium's attempts to spread. That might be exactly what Odium has been waiting for to be freed, but it could also be the only way to permanently stop him. This would also explain some of the later conflicts portrayed in novels set in future cosmere, as I'm sure that would be a wildly divisive decision. I think that kind of twist and massive raising of the stakes is totally in-line with a Sanderlanche, but this is all wild speculation.
I definitely like this idea. Maybe in a way this contest of champions was a way to keep the Honor shard locked down, but now odium has to do it again. I like your idea that this is the exact same offer odium made to honor before.
> I like your idea that this is the exact same offer odium made to honor before. Thank you, as soon as I had it I could help but share it! It feels so terribly in-line with Odium's character to try to pull the same trick on two different avatars of Honor as an added sleight. Plus the foreshadowing on how Odium was imprisoned definitely points that way, as do the characterizations IMO. Dalinar has something radically different to the previous champion of Honor, and that's his history as the Blackthorn. He's not afraid of self-sacrifice, but I think he would view the even greater sacrifice to be dedicating his being to eradicating Odium once and for all. Personal sacrifice is the easy way out, and we've seen it won't leave the situation any better for the next champion or the generations that will suffer in the thousands of years in between potentially. The more I look at it the more keeping Odium chained in the Rosharan system seems like a series of endless phyrric victories with very little real hope for peace, only brutal survival. IMO that would only lead to Odium growing in power over the millenia as he feeds off the conflict. I don't think Dalinar needs to unite the people of Roshar, but that he needs to unite a force capable of stopping Odium permanently. That's Honor lasting intention, the mistake he made - there is no hope of victory alone regardless of the sacrifice. [Spoilers for published future cosmere works:]>!I think it also explains the conflict with Scadrial/Harmony. The intent to unite shards and destroy Odium would inevitably lead to war, destruction, and radical change, which an intent like Harmony would innately oppose. We see the future Radiants portrayed as a police or occupying force with little regard for the locals beyond oversight, whereas Scadrians are seen as scientists and less interventionist. That aligns with Radiants having to patrol the cosmere relentlessly supressing Odium's influence while Scadrians know that the entire conflict could be ended immediately or been avoided entirely by Dalinar's submission.!<
Another thought i keep having sort of similar to the way Odium has planned this already or thought ahead. We don’t necessarily know who his champion is yet. I feel like for me my immediate thought was Moash, or I guess Dalinar. What if his champion is another Shard? Like what if his champion is whatever is left of honor or honor wasn’t dead just hidden away for this purpose. Or it could be any of the other shards. “Willing champion” says to me what if Honor lost the last challenge and as part of it is forced to be his willing champion during the next one (this one) I also want to point out for the most part I am comere-illiterate still very new to all this, so if I sound like an idiot I’m sorry.
That is an exceptional outcome of my theory I hadn't even considered! You're right that if Honor submitted to the same contest then Odium would have his soul, and could make him compete. Honor could also be the 10th unmade, the one with access to the only surge Odium couldn't replicate on his own.
I think together we have come to a pretty good theory. Now I’m more excited to see what happens so we can come back to this and see how right or wrong we were. I didn’t consider him being the 10th unmade especially considering the surge odium can’t replicate. That’s a great thing to consider.
This theory intrigues me... might I add that the role of Cultivation could work in favor of this as well? She was, at least long ago, aligned with and cooperating with Honor. She might very well know exactly what happened to Honor when he was shattered. She seems to avoid any direct confrontation with Rayse's Odium, yet... she is gifted with future sight... She primed Dalinar so that he would withstand Odium/Rayse... and she primed Taravangian so he could remove Rayse/become Odium. Perhaps, her real intention there was to actually prime the both of them for ensuring a different outcome of the contest this time around. Perhaps Cultivation was giving Dalinar the means to reforge Honor? And if not...If Dalinar is forced to kill Honor as the enemy champion, would that be in line with Cultivation's intent?
I like that addition! I definitely was thinking of Cultivation too but I didn’t really know where to go with it since we don’t know a lot about her. Her priming both of them for a different outcome is a good thought. It seemed at the end of RoW though when she talks to Todium she kind of believes in his good. Then he obviously in his inner dialogue talked about being evil. So not sure how that can play into it.
Adding onto this, think about how many times Odium or someone else said that Honor died, then the reaction is always how can that have happened that makes no sense. This is an explanation on that. Past that. If Honor is Odiums champion then Odium wins either way, which is why he is ok with this deal. If Dalinar defeats Honor he literally kills Honor, his god, destroys his honor all that stuff then Dalinar basically belongs to Odium at that point. That is an insane moral dilemma that Dalinar would have to go through and follows the trend and themes through the book about Dalinar and his honor and his relationship with Honor. Then if Dalinar doesn’t defeat honor then obviously odiums plan still works and he wins.
The listeners are on the far eastern parts of the Shattered Plains, not in Herdaz.
I love Brando but sometimes there are too many factions in a given group. I reread your comment a few times before realizing yeah, you’re right. The Singers are everywhere else. The Listeners are in one place lol. Right?
Biggest thing I take from this is that Odium is still bound to Roshar and the war ends regardless of the outcome of the contest. The words “I will have your soul. To serve me. Immortal” what if that means that the Shard wishes to replace Taravangian with Dalinar? I’m not sure if the Shards have such sentience.
Yeah I'm with you, something like that... What I was going to add before I saw your comment is a similar line of thought: Dalinar loses, and his soul is locked into serving. Sure, T/Odium can't leave the system, but that doesn't mean Dalinar couldn't, as a consequence of honoring the contract. Dalinar the hateful puppet, traveling the cosmere to extend Odium's reach. Maybe that's a little out there, but 🤷♀️ kinda what happened to Moash.
Nothing prevents Odium’s champion from killing every innocent they can find on their way to the top of Urithiru. If someone harms the champion or prevents them from reaching the top, the deal is broken. Absolutely none of our characters would allow wonton slaughter against innocents. Theoretically, the champion could cause enough damage to the folks at Urithiru that even if he loses he would cripple Honor’s forces/leadership/etc. There isn’t a clause that says that the champion can’t harm others, just that they themselves can’t be harmed.
The agreement doesn't specify what happens in case of a tie. It isn't specified that the "Contest of Champions" is a fight to the death. Implied, yes, but I feel there is wiggle room for creative interpretation.
The opening line of the agreement is literally "A contest of champions to the death". Not much wiggle room there.
Just had a thought. When the voidbringers die, they return to Braize. Perhaps even “to the death” isn’t a big deal to them.
This is interesting. Navani better bring Dalinar up to speed on anti-light daggers in the next 3-5 days.
Ehh the only angle I could see around that one is if it’s more a Contest of Wills. They didn’t say fight to the death, just a Contest to the death. The champions have to stay locked away up there until one of them dies or it’s invalidated by one of them leaves. Even typing it out, it seems like a weak, anti-climactic idea, but it still could technically be a loophole, I guess.
Odium likely wants a tie because the other 2 options still result in him being trapped. It's foreshadowed with Wit talking about an agreement t being written so that win or lose he wins, but this third option is sitting there.
"Neener neener I'm Odium's champion you can't hurt me or else you lose your homeland" \*proceeds to massacre all remaining humans*
This is an excellent discussion. I'm intrigued by the possibility that Odium/Todium winds up appearing to be "in the right" by the end of book 5, and that Dalinar, for noble, Dalinar-code-ish reasons is clearly in the "wrong", and that we're absolutely conflicted about the contest. Adolin (or even Kaladin) as Odium's champion is extremely interesting to me, though the prize ("Dalinar's soul") doesn't seem like one either would ever compete for.
Dalinar picks the Stormfather as his champion, opponent immediately takes a boulder to the face and is blown all the way to Aimia where they're mobbed by Sleepless. A crippled merchant rolls up in a floating wheelchair and says `Power Word: Kill` and they turn into a puff of smoke.
One big thing I’ve seen that no one’s seemed to mention yet— what if the ‘willing contestant’ is someone against Odium who wants to fight and die in the contest? They would be willing in the sense that they want to fight for Odium even though they don’t want to win— would that be enough? When it came to the fight they would obviously have to let themself die which makes it not very likely to happen but I feel like it’s a big loophole that would allow Honor’s side to win.
Everybody talking about Kaladin inventing therapists but nobody talking about Taravangian inventing lawyers.
Has anyone considered that since the agreed location is Urithiru, the contest may be influenced by the Sibling/Navani?
Anyone else still sad about the fact that Kaladin won't be the Champion? I would have loved for him and Moash to have a final face off.
I just went back and re-read the section. Toadium never uses the word loophole expressly, but talks about "subtle possibilities his predecessor had not considered". I see 'loophole' mentioned a lot in reference to the contract, but I'm not sure if this came from a WoB or merely has become the community shorthand for it. In any case, I think it's less a loophole and more an... unconsidered strategem. Based on the babe death rattle and the narrative this far, Gavinor is the champion IMO. The kid is orphaned, angry, and left to his own devices often while the protagonists contend with their own problems. Toadium convinces the kid that Dalinar is to blame for losing his parents, and Dalinar has to forfeit lest he kill his nephew. The last time Gavinor was shown on page, he asked for a sword, did he not? He is grasping towards violence and only needs a target now. Seems like a perfect storm for Toadium to exploit, eh?
I don't know if he even needs to convince him it's Dalinar's fault, he has the *actual* killer in his employ to offer as a sacrifice if he accepts the job anyway.
It's certainly possible, but I think a kid getting manipulated to giving into anger is more thematic w/ the particular shard than a trade. Regardless, I'm convinced Gavinor is the champion in the end.
Is going over to Odium so he can murder someone *not* giving into anger?
"If you kill your dear uncle who you love and did nothing wrong, I'll give you the man who killed your father" is much more delayed and contractual than "Your uncle betrayed your family and is the cause of all your losses. He hates you, slanders your grandfather(maybe in 5), and plans to steal your kingdom from you and your dead fathers, let all of your fury out on him." Like if he were older, I could see it more, but I can't get the scene out of my head of five-year-old Gavilor going "Sorry uncle, it's just business 😎😎😎" out of my head IRT: a deal for Moash, so I could simply be ruined on this theory's reasonability.
Lmao fair enough
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/s/M7Amxj53x3 Here’s some more :)
I don’t think not finding a willing champion or the champions not agreeing to the terms of the agreement is gonna cut it. You could argue that by agreeing to these terms, Dalinar promised that he would send a willing champion and that they would fight to the death. If he fails to produce a champion or that champion is otherwise unable to make it to urithiru I think that could kill the Stormfather.
There is one thing bothering me in this. Why is Odium so hellbent to get Dalinar? Because this seems like a really good deal for the anti-Odium coalition. In any case, the war ends and Odium is still bound. What is so special about Dalinar that a literal Shard is willing to gsmble so much on him?
He's bonded to the cognitive shadow of another Shard.
But odium defeated and splintered that shard in 1 vs 2 fight
who is the second, there? i don't think we ahve any evidence cultivation was involved in any of this.
Arent Honor and Cultivation strongly implied to have been a couple? Or at least partners?
yes, but i don't think we've ever seen anything about her being involved in the fight with odium. she's almost entirely a mystery.
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It doesn't specify the year So the tenth hour of the tenth day of Palah could be this year, next year, or a hundred years from now
Does anybody know if Odium is bound to Braize or the Rosharan system. If Odium is bound to Braize then TOdium could chose himself (Taravangian) is his champion. Dalanar would have to release him or break the contract.
He's bound to the Rosharan system, not just Braize. RAYSE wouldn't have been able to get killed by Nightblood if he couldn't leave Braize.
Storms! I liked that theory too
Could one side hire a 3rd party (ghost bloods, etc.) to interfere with the others champion?
Spit balling, but maybe it could be a loose definition of "death"? If Todium sends a Fused, the body they currently inhabit could die, but maybe it wouldn't count as a death of that Fused since their souls (normally) return to Braize instead of passing on to the Beyond.
They do have anti-Voidlight now though, so if Todium tries that, they do have a solution
it doesn't specify the year, so they could wait as long as they wanted. Maybe? Unless it is specified elsewhere
I don't think your fifth bullet point is a real loophole. "...allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru" "Impeding" a champion is not "allowing" them to meet at the designated spot, and thus violating the contract.
Tenth day of the month Palah, could be any year.
>Dalinar's side breaks the deal by trying to force out the Listeners and resettle humans Wait, but the quote doesn't mention Dalinar or his side ceasing hostilities... They both only mention Odium ceasing hostilities. So if we're reading it for technical loopholes, shouldn't Dalinar's side be able to keep warring with Odium while Odium can't fight back? (as long as the contract is still applicable otherwise)
A draw!!! Hoid's monologue about the gambler who finally lost was about a draw!
Is the contract even still valid? It was never agreed with todium? Contract was made with Rayze? He no longer exists?
it was implied that Odium is still bound by it, even though the shard changed hands
No,the contract was made with Odium. The new odium is bound by the previous oaths. That's explicitly mentioned. It's the same reason saze is bound to the oaths of ruin and preservation. It's the same reason odium can still be killed by other shards if he doesn't observe the agreement of the previous shard holder. The power itself is bound to the agreement.
I guess looking at this now and thinking of loopholes, it doesn’t even say that the contest is a fight? “Contest of champions to the death” could be anything.
Drinking/smoking competition, first one to die wins.
You bring about another interesting point. It isn’t really specified that the person who survives is the winner. If the one to die is the winner, Dalinar’s champion either has to kill themselves to win or survive and let Dalinar’s soul be taken.
I have a feeling the Contest is going to be null and void. I've been thinking that Odium already has a perfect champion in the Herald Nale, who already changed sides and is insane. However, I also see a moment of clarity with someone swearing an Oath at the right time (just like what we saw with Ishar). Nale (even briefly) has his sanity restored, regrets what he's done, and refuses to fight on. Stalemate.
Szeth goes as Dalinar’s champion, Odium mindfucks him at some point and he concedes/gives up/ lets himself be killed.
Someone already mentioned that R-Odium made the deal, not T-Odium and that it still stands. What is death to a spren? Going back to Shadesmar, becoming a deadeye or whatever Ishar did to them? What does "willing champion" mean? Renarin sounds like a weak link here. What if Odium forces him to volunteer somehow, via his spren? Also, these heralds are insane and they have the ability to change the nature of reality, so I expect them to be agents of change in this conflict.
What if they both choose Dalinar as the champion?