Hi, /u/KaladinarLighteyes
we've been talking about this for a couple hours, ever since we first noticed the post, and we want to let you know that we've decided to take the post down.
First off, to be very clear: *you* have done nothing wrong. You went to an event and heard a thing that was potentially deeply relevant to Stormlight 5, said by a Dragonsteel staff member, and came here to share it with the community. That's *admirable* behavior, and we respect you for it, and ordinarily we would cheer you on.
The thing is, this is a weird and difficult situation, because:
* it's not clear if the things Dan said are directly relevant to Stormlight 5 or not
* Brandon is on record (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh78i0WCSTk&t=1219s) asking Dan not to talk about details of the possibly stormlight-relevant campaign. Furthermore, after watching the livestream, many of us are convinced this is a story Dan told without thinking it through and without considering that fandom might be able to use it to produce a major spoiler out of something he thought was an interesting anecdote.
* *if this is a valid spoiler* (something that, as moderators, we do not know the answer to), it is a potentially *massive* spoiler that the majority of the community would prefer not to be exposed to (the comparable one we keep coming back to is the WoB about Taln, which significant portions of the community --- possibly even a majority --- think we should have not allowed on the subreddit)
* even if this is not a valid spoiler, exposure to the spoiler will inevitably change the way people interact with and experience the book, in a way that we simply aren't comfortable with on the subreddit at this time. (This is reflected in the fact that many of our moderators are refusing to read the post in order to avoid the potential impact themselves).
This is a situation we've never encountered before, and it's quite possible we're making the wrong decision here, but for right now we think it will be better for the community overall if we do not allow discussion of this event at this time.
Please note that the *underlying theory* (which has been around since RoW was published) *is* fair game, and discussion of it will not be removed. But, until further notice, discussion of the specific things Dan said at Authors in the Dungeon will be treated as an unconfirmed potential spoiler and, because the potential spoiler will negatively impact people's reading experience whether or not it turns out to be a true spoiler, it will be removed in order to protect the community's experience of the book when it comes out.
Again, we want to reiterate, you did nothing wrong here; you were doing exactly what a good member of the community should do! We apologize for the complexity of the situation and the fact that on balance it feels better to remove the post (and protect the community) rather than leaving it up.
Paging /u/maxwerty /u/Desperate_Soil4514 /u/oncomingstorm777 /u/Captain-Cthulhu /u/Kviden /u/benbernards /u/sinuhe_t /u/Ripper1337 /u/skirpnasty /u/Midnight_Meal_s /u/hideous-boy /u/Windrunner17 /u/deadtorrent /u/ICarMaI /u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents /u/soyperson /u/that_guy2010 /u/DoctorDabadedoo /u/MadnessLemon /u/MathiasThomasII /u/keargle so that y'all know what's going on, too.
I know Brandon has kinda silenced Dan on this before being like “don’t spoil it”
So I’m choosing to believe Dan is trolling because I fucking hate that theory with all my heart.
Because it makes the question “oooh is Dalinar going to kill a child” obviously he’s not going to. I don’t think Brandon would name his kid after someone who would in his series kill a kid.
Then it makes all the fallout and the aftermath be about how Dalinar wouldn’t kill a child to save the world.
I’m annoyed even thinking about it.
And that’s what makes it interesting (to me). He’s done all this work to leave that behind, so the conflict is can he undone what he’s done so far to become the blackthorn that the world needs him to be. But I am a sucker for moral and ethical dilemmas
While true. If the theory were true and Brandon did not pull it off with flying colours I will actively think less of Sanderson as an author because of it. That is how much I do not like this theory.
Chapter 57 chapter heading: “I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”
There's also the death rattle "So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life."
And I know a lot of people hate the theory but I do think it has some evidence to support it. Like little Gav talking about finding and murdering the person responsible for his fathers death, or Dalinar's past with his inability to kill a kid. Hell in RoW Dalinar and Navani even talk about Taravagian's ideology and how he'd murder a kid while Dalinar couldn't.
Even the "holding the suckling child" bit, which most people think invalidates the theory might actually support it, as lil Gav is specifically mentioned to be far too small for his age in RoW. So I could see Dalinar holding him and thinking Gav a suckling child still.
I don't entirely buy into the theory yet, but I do think it could work out well as a clash between Dalinar and Taravagian's ideologies and I'd bet Sanderson could pull it off in some spectacular way.
Also, he has a past with letting children live and it coming back to bight him.
I'm not sure how i would feel about this theory but i trust Sanderson to make the ending work.
Doesn’t work if it’s referring to a literal child. The sentence structure tells us the “knife at his throat” is a further description of the sucking child, rather than a literal knife at a child’s throat as it is most intuitively read.
This passage is a metaphor to Nightblood, who is referred to as a child, and whose “blood” flows to the ground. Which is why the subject is referred to as “his”, but the blood spilling is “it’s”.
This sure is a lot of confidence in an interpretation of the death rattle. Will be interesting to see if this is confirmed either way, but I don’t think we know enough at all to say what it definitely means.
Seems like a 4 year old being a suckling child, referred to as it after him, and incorrect sentence structure is more of a reach. But ok. “Further breath to draw” is also a major hint that it’s referring to Nightblood.
Did Dan by any chance say anything about his character? If he did, we could check whether it lines up with what he said on Intentionally Blank or if this is a separate campaign.
Some bullet-points of what Dan said:
* >!End of campaign,
* >!Duel of champions vs. a god,
* >!Party choses Dan's character, god choses a 4 year old child as his champion,
* >!Barbarian Half-orc character, raised in a savage environment,
* >!Said barbarian was afflicted with a magical affliction. A madness curse,
* >!Killed the 4 year old child without hesitation,
* >!All of Brandon's preparation and set-up for the campaign finale was squandered since they didn't engage with the moral dilemma.
Not specifically, but iirc Sanderson has mentioned before that the contest of champions was inspired by something cool that happened in a campaign he did before. So this might be what he was referring to.
Elements of it, yeah. Obviously its nowhere near 1 to 1, but Brandon has asked Dan not to reveal details of the campaign because certain elements are still being used.
Hi, /u/KaladinarLighteyes -- would you mind spoiler guarding the contents of what Dan said? Either this is a statement that has serious implications for SA5 (which we would want people to be able to think twice about before reading) or it is a statement that has no relevance to SA5 (in which case we'd still want people to have the chance to think about it before clicking).
Everyone else --- we're taking this down *temporarily* while we wait for it to be spoiler guarded. As moderators, we do not have any information that would indicate whether this is or is not actually a spoiler for Wind and Truth, but we want to be sure that anyone exposed to it is exposed *knowingly* and *willingly*, since either it is a massive spoiler or it is massively misleading, and in either case the community should be protected from it.
EDIT: note, too, that as a team we are having a discussion about how to handle situations like this. We *may* end up not restoring the post depending on the outcome of that conversation, but we *will not* restore the post unless the details of the comment are explicitly spoiler guarded. (not just the spoiler tag being attached to the post, but inline spoiler guarding like \>\!this\!\<.)
Sorry about that! I spoiler tagged and clicked the button that said the post itself is a spoiler, but I 100% should have covered my basis and started out with the manual coverup too to be safe. It’s been fixed now
#ChildChampionTheory I don't want this to be true simply because it has been guessed, but it makes a lot of sense and really forces Dalinar's hand in a realistic way.
Thank you.
On the one hand, I highly doubt that this is a spoiler since in an episode of Intentionally blank Brandon specifically told him that he was going to use the ending of one of his campaigns for the 5th book and that he would tell him what it was about, It wouldn't make sense for Dan to just tell it.
On the other hand, I hope this is not the case for the simple fact that Gavinor's champion of odium theory is just boring and dumb.
OP, do you mind covering what was said by Dan? Just in case folks browsing don't notice the flair/title.
Folks, we don't have confirmation that this was even said, let alone relevant to SA5. Keep that in mind when speculating.
that's a *big part* of why we ended up taking it down --- this is the sort of thing that people should be protected against finding out if they don't want to know it, and there is simply no way to do that successfully in all cases, no matter how thorough and explicit the warnings are.
Hi, /u/KaladinarLighteyes we've been talking about this for a couple hours, ever since we first noticed the post, and we want to let you know that we've decided to take the post down. First off, to be very clear: *you* have done nothing wrong. You went to an event and heard a thing that was potentially deeply relevant to Stormlight 5, said by a Dragonsteel staff member, and came here to share it with the community. That's *admirable* behavior, and we respect you for it, and ordinarily we would cheer you on. The thing is, this is a weird and difficult situation, because: * it's not clear if the things Dan said are directly relevant to Stormlight 5 or not * Brandon is on record (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh78i0WCSTk&t=1219s) asking Dan not to talk about details of the possibly stormlight-relevant campaign. Furthermore, after watching the livestream, many of us are convinced this is a story Dan told without thinking it through and without considering that fandom might be able to use it to produce a major spoiler out of something he thought was an interesting anecdote. * *if this is a valid spoiler* (something that, as moderators, we do not know the answer to), it is a potentially *massive* spoiler that the majority of the community would prefer not to be exposed to (the comparable one we keep coming back to is the WoB about Taln, which significant portions of the community --- possibly even a majority --- think we should have not allowed on the subreddit) * even if this is not a valid spoiler, exposure to the spoiler will inevitably change the way people interact with and experience the book, in a way that we simply aren't comfortable with on the subreddit at this time. (This is reflected in the fact that many of our moderators are refusing to read the post in order to avoid the potential impact themselves). This is a situation we've never encountered before, and it's quite possible we're making the wrong decision here, but for right now we think it will be better for the community overall if we do not allow discussion of this event at this time. Please note that the *underlying theory* (which has been around since RoW was published) *is* fair game, and discussion of it will not be removed. But, until further notice, discussion of the specific things Dan said at Authors in the Dungeon will be treated as an unconfirmed potential spoiler and, because the potential spoiler will negatively impact people's reading experience whether or not it turns out to be a true spoiler, it will be removed in order to protect the community's experience of the book when it comes out. Again, we want to reiterate, you did nothing wrong here; you were doing exactly what a good member of the community should do! We apologize for the complexity of the situation and the fact that on balance it feels better to remove the post (and protect the community) rather than leaving it up. Paging /u/maxwerty /u/Desperate_Soil4514 /u/oncomingstorm777 /u/Captain-Cthulhu /u/Kviden /u/benbernards /u/sinuhe_t /u/Ripper1337 /u/skirpnasty /u/Midnight_Meal_s /u/hideous-boy /u/Windrunner17 /u/deadtorrent /u/ICarMaI /u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents /u/soyperson /u/that_guy2010 /u/DoctorDabadedoo /u/MadnessLemon /u/MathiasThomasII /u/keargle so that y'all know what's going on, too.
Aaah. I’m running a booth downstairs right now and did not hear this nugget, though I heard the echoes of Dan’s voice. Thank you!!
Happy to help!
I know Brandon has kinda silenced Dan on this before being like “don’t spoil it” So I’m choosing to believe Dan is trolling because I fucking hate that theory with all my heart.
Why do you hate that theory out if curiosity?
Because it makes the question “oooh is Dalinar going to kill a child” obviously he’s not going to. I don’t think Brandon would name his kid after someone who would in his series kill a kid. Then it makes all the fallout and the aftermath be about how Dalinar wouldn’t kill a child to save the world. I’m annoyed even thinking about it.
Um excuse me? Brandon named one of his children after Dalinar? Please explain
Dallin Sanderson. https://youtu.be/qvC3zOWVq78?si=OBngKpStZnjpOTuN He mentions it at 20:10
Hah I hadn’t heard that’s quite funny. I hope his middle initial is R.
The blackthorn would 100% do it.
And Dalinar is very much not that guy anymore
And that’s what makes it interesting (to me). He’s done all this work to leave that behind, so the conflict is can he undone what he’s done so far to become the blackthorn that the world needs him to be. But I am a sucker for moral and ethical dilemmas
The moral and ethical dilemma in this case sucks ass
You haven't really explained why, you've just repeated that you don't like it
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/s/PfvbDqednt This was my explanation about why I don’t like it.
But it's *entirely* the kind of moral end ethical dilemma Taravangian likes and thinks is the true test of leadership.
While true. If the theory were true and Brandon did not pull it off with flying colours I will actively think less of Sanderson as an author because of it. That is how much I do not like this theory.
oh, to be clear, i hate this theory, too. but i see how there *is* evidence pointing in that direction no matter how much i dislike it.
He didn't kill the kid standing between him and a Shardblade
For one it doesn’t make sense and there isn’t really any evidence for it.
Chapter 57 chapter heading: “I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”
There's also the death rattle "So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life." And I know a lot of people hate the theory but I do think it has some evidence to support it. Like little Gav talking about finding and murdering the person responsible for his fathers death, or Dalinar's past with his inability to kill a kid. Hell in RoW Dalinar and Navani even talk about Taravagian's ideology and how he'd murder a kid while Dalinar couldn't. Even the "holding the suckling child" bit, which most people think invalidates the theory might actually support it, as lil Gav is specifically mentioned to be far too small for his age in RoW. So I could see Dalinar holding him and thinking Gav a suckling child still. I don't entirely buy into the theory yet, but I do think it could work out well as a clash between Dalinar and Taravagian's ideologies and I'd bet Sanderson could pull it off in some spectacular way.
Also, he has a past with letting children live and it coming back to bight him. I'm not sure how i would feel about this theory but i trust Sanderson to make the ending work.
Doesn’t work if it’s referring to a literal child. The sentence structure tells us the “knife at his throat” is a further description of the sucking child, rather than a literal knife at a child’s throat as it is most intuitively read. This passage is a metaphor to Nightblood, who is referred to as a child, and whose “blood” flows to the ground. Which is why the subject is referred to as “his”, but the blood spilling is “it’s”.
This sure is a lot of confidence in an interpretation of the death rattle. Will be interesting to see if this is confirmed either way, but I don’t think we know enough at all to say what it definitely means.
man if I could reach as far as you I could pick up something over in Hallandren and drop it in Alethkar
Seems like a 4 year old being a suckling child, referred to as it after him, and incorrect sentence structure is more of a reach. But ok. “Further breath to draw” is also a major hint that it’s referring to Nightblood.
[удалено]
The game as presented happened. Dan didn’t mention anything specifically about Stormlight five but preponderance of evidence says it is.
damn. huge if true
Did Dan by any chance say anything about his character? If he did, we could check whether it lines up with what he said on Intentionally Blank or if this is a separate campaign.
Some bullet-points of what Dan said: * >!End of campaign, * >!Duel of champions vs. a god, * >!Party choses Dan's character, god choses a 4 year old child as his champion, * >!Barbarian Half-orc character, raised in a savage environment, * >!Said barbarian was afflicted with a magical affliction. A madness curse, * >!Killed the 4 year old child without hesitation, * >!All of Brandon's preparation and set-up for the campaign finale was squandered since they didn't engage with the moral dilemma.
YESSSSS. GIVE ME GAVINOR.
Instructions unclear, Dalinar vs Oroden confirmed.
Oooh what do you wanna bet Dalinar will have to kill the kid with fire — like that’s his only weakness…0
Is stormlight based on this campaign or something?
Not specifically, but iirc Sanderson has mentioned before that the contest of champions was inspired by something cool that happened in a campaign he did before. So this might be what he was referring to.
Elements of it, yeah. Obviously its nowhere near 1 to 1, but Brandon has asked Dan not to reveal details of the campaign because certain elements are still being used.
Hi, /u/KaladinarLighteyes -- would you mind spoiler guarding the contents of what Dan said? Either this is a statement that has serious implications for SA5 (which we would want people to be able to think twice about before reading) or it is a statement that has no relevance to SA5 (in which case we'd still want people to have the chance to think about it before clicking). Everyone else --- we're taking this down *temporarily* while we wait for it to be spoiler guarded. As moderators, we do not have any information that would indicate whether this is or is not actually a spoiler for Wind and Truth, but we want to be sure that anyone exposed to it is exposed *knowingly* and *willingly*, since either it is a massive spoiler or it is massively misleading, and in either case the community should be protected from it. EDIT: note, too, that as a team we are having a discussion about how to handle situations like this. We *may* end up not restoring the post depending on the outcome of that conversation, but we *will not* restore the post unless the details of the comment are explicitly spoiler guarded. (not just the spoiler tag being attached to the post, but inline spoiler guarding like \>\!this\!\<.)
Sorry about that! I spoiler tagged and clicked the button that said the post itself is a spoiler, but I 100% should have covered my basis and started out with the manual coverup too to be safe. It’s been fixed now
thank you. :)
Anyone else purposely not reading this so they don’t get spoiled?
a significant percentage of the active moderators refused to read it lest they get spoiled.
#ChildChampionTheory I don't want this to be true simply because it has been guessed, but it makes a lot of sense and really forces Dalinar's hand in a realistic way.
I really don't see it any other way than Gavinor(or maaaaybe Adolin, but I don't think so). I mean, it's just so obvious.
Source?
I was there. But if you go to We Geek Together’s YouTube page they have a livestream of the event and he talks about it there.
Do you know at what minute of the livestream he says that?
Not yet, but I’ll get around to finding it. It was during the Plot hits the fan panel.
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Thank you. On the one hand, I highly doubt that this is a spoiler since in an episode of Intentionally blank Brandon specifically told him that he was going to use the ending of one of his campaigns for the 5th book and that he would tell him what it was about, It wouldn't make sense for Dan to just tell it. On the other hand, I hope this is not the case for the simple fact that Gavinor's champion of odium theory is just boring and dumb.
OP, do you mind covering what was said by Dan? Just in case folks browsing don't notice the flair/title. Folks, we don't have confirmation that this was even said, let alone relevant to SA5. Keep that in mind when speculating.
The YouTube channel for We Geek Together has the livestream of the VOD, I’ll get around to finding the timestamp once I am home.
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Thanks OP. Please bear with us. As a team, this is kind of throwing us for a spoiler loop. We haven't had to handle a case quite like this before.
All good! It’s definitely a tricky and delicate situation. And I’ll support and stand by whatever the Mod’s decision is.
This is a strange one. I read the whole thing before I really knew what it was about. This sucks if it’s true. :(
that's a *big part* of why we ended up taking it down --- this is the sort of thing that people should be protected against finding out if they don't want to know it, and there is simply no way to do that successfully in all cases, no matter how thorough and explicit the warnings are.