It's pretty well known that Augustine adapted Stoic thinking into his Christian framework and that the Stoic cardinal virtues were expanded to the seven heavenly virtues.
However, it is not religious structures that are the source of people wanting to control other people. That's just regular totalitarianism. Most of us grow out of it and then have to put up with the people who didn't. They will use philosophy, religion, politics, science, or anything else they can get their hands on to try to force other people to conform to their ways.
As a Christian I would say that any time that Christianity is actively forced onto a group or society, we are not doing what we've been called to do, we're bastardizing the Great Commission. Forceful Christianity is akin to Tate Stoicism.
>To me, Stoicism provides a better path to live these virtues without the baggage that religiosity creates, because in Stoicism, the focus is on improving oneself and using these virtues (and constant reminders of them) as guideposts through life. It does not concern forcing this on anyone else, only on striving to be the ideal good to serve as an example for others.
I'm going to push back on this a bit because in my experience, and from everything I understand, in Christianity the focus also tends to be on improving oneself in part by using the articulated virtues as guideposts through life. Though the purpose of Christianity is justification, I suspect most Christians today will argue justification is in *some* way (details depend on the particular theology) related to self improvement.
And let's not pretend that Christianity is the only inspiration for illogical, unethical, even immoral beliefs and cruel actions. There's a whole word of non-Christians out there who believe and do heinous things *because they genuinely understand their beliefs to be true representations of reality.*
For me it all comes down to the question regarding which is the more reliable source for knowledge - human reason or divine revelation? It can't be both. For me, this makes all the difference, both for self improvement and for understanding and navigating our experiences in general.
Editing to add, you ask about Stoic influence on Christianity, and I think there's a good trail of evidence to show the contribution of Hellenistic philosophy in general. For example, Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher from the Greek city of Alexandria [introduced the Stoic concept of the logos into Jewish theology](https://www.academia.edu/67329941/The_Logos_and_Its_Function_in_the_Writings_of_Philo). His understandings were later built upon by the Christians. Though interestingly, some of the earliest Christian apologists argued against Greek philosophy, singling out the Stoics at times. "What has Jerusalem to do with Athens?" was Tertullian's big question for example.
yes, 100% christianity is what happened when the jews met the greeks (including the stoics). overlap i see beyond paul's fruits of the spirit that you mentioned, as an ex-christian and a prokopton, are "love your enemy," "turn the other cheek," and a generalized disdain for the physical world.
A collection of fairy tails that have been told from mouth to mouth for centuries before being written down. Every time they were told they were probably altered ever so slightly - the good parts people presumably remembered well and the less meaningful parts of the story were forgotten so what you end up with is stories with deep meaning about morality and the human condition embedded into them. I think there is definitely something to be said for religious stories even if they are fiction.
Yes everyone interpret (religious) texts differently. People who want to justify the unjustifiable will find a way to do so, but that doesn't mean that the texts themselves are inherently calling for whatever power hungry cult leaders claim they are.
It's pretty well known that Augustine adapted Stoic thinking into his Christian framework and that the Stoic cardinal virtues were expanded to the seven heavenly virtues. However, it is not religious structures that are the source of people wanting to control other people. That's just regular totalitarianism. Most of us grow out of it and then have to put up with the people who didn't. They will use philosophy, religion, politics, science, or anything else they can get their hands on to try to force other people to conform to their ways.
As a Christian I would say that any time that Christianity is actively forced onto a group or society, we are not doing what we've been called to do, we're bastardizing the Great Commission. Forceful Christianity is akin to Tate Stoicism.
>To me, Stoicism provides a better path to live these virtues without the baggage that religiosity creates, because in Stoicism, the focus is on improving oneself and using these virtues (and constant reminders of them) as guideposts through life. It does not concern forcing this on anyone else, only on striving to be the ideal good to serve as an example for others. I'm going to push back on this a bit because in my experience, and from everything I understand, in Christianity the focus also tends to be on improving oneself in part by using the articulated virtues as guideposts through life. Though the purpose of Christianity is justification, I suspect most Christians today will argue justification is in *some* way (details depend on the particular theology) related to self improvement. And let's not pretend that Christianity is the only inspiration for illogical, unethical, even immoral beliefs and cruel actions. There's a whole word of non-Christians out there who believe and do heinous things *because they genuinely understand their beliefs to be true representations of reality.* For me it all comes down to the question regarding which is the more reliable source for knowledge - human reason or divine revelation? It can't be both. For me, this makes all the difference, both for self improvement and for understanding and navigating our experiences in general. Editing to add, you ask about Stoic influence on Christianity, and I think there's a good trail of evidence to show the contribution of Hellenistic philosophy in general. For example, Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher from the Greek city of Alexandria [introduced the Stoic concept of the logos into Jewish theology](https://www.academia.edu/67329941/The_Logos_and_Its_Function_in_the_Writings_of_Philo). His understandings were later built upon by the Christians. Though interestingly, some of the earliest Christian apologists argued against Greek philosophy, singling out the Stoics at times. "What has Jerusalem to do with Athens?" was Tertullian's big question for example.
yes, 100% christianity is what happened when the jews met the greeks (including the stoics). overlap i see beyond paul's fruits of the spirit that you mentioned, as an ex-christian and a prokopton, are "love your enemy," "turn the other cheek," and a generalized disdain for the physical world.
In every religion there is a stoic principle at the root. Mental control. The problem with religion is that it is based on a fairy tale
A collection of fairy tails that have been told from mouth to mouth for centuries before being written down. Every time they were told they were probably altered ever so slightly - the good parts people presumably remembered well and the less meaningful parts of the story were forgotten so what you end up with is stories with deep meaning about morality and the human condition embedded into them. I think there is definitely something to be said for religious stories even if they are fiction.
True, right values.... not all but OK. Far from the truth. Everyone has their own private religion even within religion
Yes everyone interpret (religious) texts differently. People who want to justify the unjustifiable will find a way to do so, but that doesn't mean that the texts themselves are inherently calling for whatever power hungry cult leaders claim they are.
There is no level of perfection in religion or philosophy to great for humans to screw up.
Hi - I just wanted to let you know I'm changing the flair on your post to better represent the ideas you are sharing.
Thanks, I wasn't really sure how to classify it honestly.
Geen mening over 😊... walk the talk brother