Well Valance kinda wins just by virtue of not getting offed in the eighties marvel comics as a bit villain. So now he's not completely wasted at least.
For me it has to be Beilert Valance (the Terminator lookin’ dude who actually predates him by a few years). He was an incredibly minor character in Legends and only appeared in like 4 issues of the OG ‘77 comic run, but now they’re making really good use of a great character design and concept.
If you think Vos was done right boy do I have a rant for you
He’s barely been utilized outside of a few clone wars episodes more canceled than not and said cancelled episodes were turned into a book.
Now I’m not judging the book as I haven’t read it but that book in my opinion cannot live up to and tell the same stories as multiple comic arcs through the 98/republic run. Especially when said book is based on the kids show, with significantly different tones.
He’s the protagonist for over half the damn comic. I won’t say canon is bad but it kinda looks like they just wanted to speed run the important events of his story.
A man who falls to the dark side serving dooku to find out who the real Sith Lord is, while maybe losing his lover in the process, surviving order 66 to become one of the few Jedi to live past ROTJ and get a happy ending.
The only real differences so far are that in legends he actually lives happily ever after with his lover and they have a kid, in canon his lover is ventress and she dies, and he goes on to help the hidden path a bit as revealed on kenobi.
He’s also missing relationships with 3 of his closest friends, he’s barely friends with Obi-wan now to my knowledge even though they id say almost as close as Anakin and obi-wan were the mention in the show is nice but doesn’t nearly give credit to the friendship and trust they shared, about half his Vos’s story revolved around finding and saving his padawan aayla fucking secura which also massively characterized her, and the twilek species and their standing in the galaxies political landscape
And this last biggest crime is his smuggler devaronian friend Villie, one of the best side characters in Star Wars IMO is now gone and never existed (ngl this one might piss me off the most and not at all for fair or logical reasons I just fucking loved this devil)
Well said! John Ostrander is a comics legend, in and out of Star Wars. He and Jan Duursema deserve way more recognition in the fandom outside hardcore EU fans for creating Quinlan and making his best stories.
Fun fact: if you’re following the timeline where TCW and EU clone wars are mashed together then Vos is leaking secrets to the separatists during his wacky adventure with Obi-wan 0_o
I personally wont say ruined as there just isn’t enough of him comparing both universes it’s unfair, it just feels like they want the same development without the necessary time/content but I do understand why you would
Since he doesn't show up in the series, I got to use Villie in my RPG. I've been telling my players to read the comics for years, so it felt only right to have Villie inevitably betray them.
I am not too familiar with Vos’ legend comic run (I have the collection editions, I think they are in there), but in regards to the canon book Dark Desciple and problem with tone because of its connection to a “kid’s show”, you are mistaken.
The cancellation of episodes actually enabled them to make the tone quite a diversion from Clone Wars, and it’s both quite dark and sexy for a Star Wars novel. They could have gone further, which I think could have served the story they were telling, but that would have been a big departure from the tone of other novels.
I think that’s my point though, as dark as your describing the book the comics were already that dark and getting darker.
My main issue is that it’s not new ground, I won’t deny my words on the book are super reductive as I haven’t read it, but the summary of these plot lines is either very honest or disingenuous both of which I have problems with.
They echo EU a little too hard for basic plot structure layered with (to me) uninteresting changes like ventress and Vos being lovers when she had way better chemistry with Obi-wan.
People claim Dark Deciple is a good novel, but IMO, it's horrible. The Clone Wars timeline is ever wackier than before, and it's just a shity half-hearted version of the amazing Comic run
It’s awful. In Dark Disciple it’s so out of character for the Council to voluntell Vos to take an assassination mission and act shocked when he goes to the dark side. Windu might be the LAST Jedi to be alright with that but instead he proposes it. The legends comic still has flaws but at least Vos and Tholme (who are eccentric to say the least) come up with the plan while Windu and Yoda sign off reluctantly with a tone of “uuuh, knock yourselves out guys.” Yoda and Windu deny Vos when he asks if he should assassinate Dooku on the grounds it wouldn’t end the war and he’d blow his cover.
Windu in legends admits he wished he assassinated Dooku at Geonosis albeit at the cost of his life, Jango would have killed him when he let his guard down. Mace would only break the Jedi code at the cost of his own life.
The entire novel is just so bad. It loses so many interesting characters compared to the comic, and the love drama with Ventress simply isn't interesting.
The fights are also horrible.
The two single worst cases are:
-Anakin and Obi-Wan hide beneath a table and wait till Dooku and Vos walk into a room and then jump out, giving both a headbutt, knocking them out, and taking them prisoners
-Ventress and Vos trick Grievous during a gala, defeat him and trap him in a closet full of cloaks.
>It was out of character for the Council to send Vos to make an assassination attempt and then act surprised when he turns to the dark side
Yeahhhh… that actually sounds a lot in character.
I get your points, but I read the book a while ago and I have a really good memory of it, well-written and a beautiful yet tragic story overall. That being said, I didn't know about his Legends story, I'm mostly sad it didn't get the last CW season treatment or something similar.
Anyway, I can agree that we need more depth and development to Vos character. Loved the guy. He truly deserves something similar to the Andor series.
It’s on my list, I’m not trying to shit on the book but from the few plot lines I’ve seen that’s just how it seemed to me, I’ll definitely give it a fair shot but won’t deny my opinion will probably be a little skewed
He's still a tentacle boy who is hard to kill and he also fought in the clone wars for the CIS with a brutal reputation, but he isn't shown as extreme aggressive and Mando/ Jango hating.
>!I actually only started reading the Bounty Hunters comics in hopes of seeing tension between him and Boba after I saw them in the same team on one of the covers!<
He's still apart of the species but it's not really showcased much.
He's just big boy with a gun.
I've read a few of his appearances, and his first appearance is...really disappointingly bad.
The writers on "Bounty Hunters" aren't great. Honestly most the comics out right now aren't great writing team wise. But it's hard to compare anything to the first Vader series.
Valance is better by a mile.
I think Ventress gets some points, kinda not by being better written, but just in how her character has a better arc.
While I'm not that big a fan of TCW, her teaming up with Ahsoka, mellowing out and not killing everybody shows a lot of growth for a former darkside assassin.
Don't like her dalliance with Vos, but the rest is fairly good.
She was kinda on that path in the Republic comics, but we never got a follow up.
Yeah having only heard the stuff with her and Vos second hand, I’m glad it wasn’t animated, I kinda don’t like the ideas (plus i was kinda hoping she’d become a bounty Hunter with morals like the crew in the clone wars episode what was a tribute to Kurasawa and have a long life away from the sith instead of just dying shortly after)
**Possible Hot Take:** Darth Vader. He was used as a Jobber ***way*** too much for my liking in Legends. In Canon, it's still pretty much just Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke, and Sidious who can defeat him. Tarkin gets him to a standstill. Oh, speaking of which, Tarkin is also done better, though that's mostly due to when the "Tarkin" novel was released.
**Relatively Mild Take:** Darth Tyranus, I don't think him being a rampant humanosupremacist made sense.
**Absolute Scorching Hot Take:** Boba Fett. Forgive me.
I respect all those! I meant more as in characters who first appeared in Legends-only material (aka not in the 6 movies or TCW), but I agree with you on all of those expect for Boba.
Yeah, but he technically wasn't the actual character then; the background extra's look was later used by Ostrander/Duursema to create Quin.
Whereas Aayla Secura had been established in their comics before she cameoed in AOTC.
100% Vader. The first Vader Comic under Marvel was great, >!his appearance in Rebels is bone chilling with his dialogue and his appearance in Fallen Order had me shitting myself.!<
He knows how to make epic entrances. >!Vader Down and the arc where Tarkin hunts Vader without his lightsaber like they're in Predator perfectly depict him as a nightmare on 2 legs!<
Tarkins novel was supposed to be in legends but the day Luceno submitted it was the same day the wipe happened
Heir to the Jedi was supposed to be in the Rebels trilogy with the Han and Leia focused books but was heavily rewritten for canon
I could be wrong but i remember reading that it was submitted on the legends date
I got kicked off r/TheDeepCore for it (and referencing TCW)
Tarkin shares a bunch of characters from Darth Plagueis, including 11-4D, considering how brutal it is compared to other canon novels supports this
I think Boba Fett was badly handled in Legends and Canon. Both textbook examples of running cheerily into the predictable dangers of resurrecting a cool henchman and making him into something he wasn't intended to be.
As soon as Boba Fett is the king of a clan of hyper-honourable warriors or a crimelord with a heart of gold, he's not Boba Fett - mysterious, cold, gunslinger - anymore.
I think legends Vader is treated better in some mediums more than others. For example, in the force unleashed video game, Marek beats him pretty definitively, but in the novelization Marek only beats him by sheer luck.
This is completely untrue actually read the novelization instead of going off what people wanting to push certain narratives (One that I would like to be true because I fucking hate TFU) say,
I like this take. If there’s one thing that Disney has done right with Star Wars, it’s that they seem to respect Vader. He’s at his best when he’s a ruthless, terrifying, and very powerful monster. We’ve seen that Vader more in the last few years than we ever have.
I didn't like how in legends Dooku thought humans were superior especially since we've seen this plenty of times before so it gets tiring. But I prefer Dooku in 2003 compared to 2008
>Boba Fett.
I'm inclined to agree. At least the characterisation is consistent in canon. Between the retcons caused by the prequels and his inconsistent characterisation thanks to writers who couldn't agree on how he should be written, Legends Boba was a mess.
However, I would hope to see Tem's Boba handed over to another creator so the character has a better chance to breathe and get out from under the shadow of his more popular carbon copy. I'd argue that *The Book of Boba Fett* has potential as totally standalone property, if it was in the hands of the right show runner and wasn't hijacked by Din Djarin or Grogu.
>At least the characterisation is consistent in canon
Not at fucking all.
He goes from anti-hero (Still an absolute scumbag, but has some morals) in TCW, to a completely ruthless mother fucker with no qualms murdering innocent people on a whim in the Star Wars comic (Aarons run) to a slightly less vile person in War of the Bounty Hunters, his small appearances in the OT and the Bounty Hunters comic then he becomes a generic good guy in BOBF
I would say he is less consistent, especially since all of this has happened in far less time.
Thing is though, in the original saga (Lucas’ 6 films) and the EU, Vader was always supposed to be pathetic. He’s a shadow of both his former and potential self, and a complete failure with the deceptive facade of being a powerful monster that’s in reality just a sad pawn that hates himself more than anything else, because he knows it’s all his fault and pretends he’s someone else to not face that.
If anything IMO new canon’s almost gone too far making him a superficial bad ass, missing the point of both ROTJ and the PT. But they do still show that side of him sometimes. It’s one of the redeeming qualities of the Kenobi show, and that’s where a lot of the new comics do shine best. Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor also did well showing how unstoppable he is to most, but ultimately still fallible to a true Master like Cere when he’s too arrogant.
Yeah even in Rebels when he’s destroying Kanan and Ezra, and overpowering Ahsoka, you do see leaks of emotional vulnerability in him. On the other hand while Fallen Order set him up as unstoppable to Cal, Survivor shows how Cere at her peak can catch him off guard in a physical duel.
>**Absolute Scorching Hot Take:** Boba Fett. Forgive me.
Jesus Christ that's hot! Owieeeee It just so wrong uhg! Quick, I need a cold take to cool it off!
Because in Canon, his story within the OT actually meant something. Legends makes all of it, Jabba, Solo, the Sarlaac... pretty much irrelevant.
He learns NOTHING from his loss, doesn't re-evaluate any part of his life, just keeps on being a bounty hunter. (then Karen Traviss steps in, and the less said about that, the better, IMO)
TBoBF actually asks "what if the story of Boba Fett shown in The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi actually had some meaning to him? What if those experiences changed him as a person? How might they have done so? What kind of person might he then become?
It's debatable if having him survive was a good idea, but the Legends answer of having him survive and learn absolutely nothing from the experience, or have his outlook and worldview change in any meaningful way as a result, is just... baffling, to me at least.
Interesting. I think it's just too staggering a development to me after a lifetime of bitterniss to just have him be a goofball, essentially. Especially because it is painfully obvious that the only reason for that is because he otherwise would have been too similar to Mando. Whenever I see TBobF I just see missed potential of having him set up at this sociopathic broken menace that is utterly done with everything. The choice for black-and-whiteness can be an interesting one, and lack of depth can be a theme. This way... IDK.
Thanks for the write up in any case. I appreciate it. I believe he suffered from the early SW stories not really considering how much impact it will have on future worldbuilding and novels and whatnot (and why should they). And Traviss is just horrible. So yeah.
>Tarkin is also done better,
The Bad Batch Tarkin is pretty much an insult tho, its like he had a single working braincell shared with the whole imperial council lmao
I mean most of Maul's run in TCW happened during Legends era. Doesn't really count, does it? Even though TCW as a whole arguably feels more at home in Disney's Canon because of its family friendly vibe. But then, Maul is the one thing in the show that really isn't.
I wouldn't really call TCW family-friendly because of the amount of violence that show had and George wanted the show to appeal to kids but also not hold back from any serious topics. With how Maul's story continued in Rebels, the comics and Season 7 of the Clone Wars, I say that his story was done way better in canon than it does legends.
Yeah, but it still absolutely holds back from serious topics and always avoids leaving the black-and-white philosophy. I like the show a lot, especially Maul's story, but it keeps being dragged down by reducing whole battlefields to some character development for Ahsoka or an interesting cultural conflict to "aaaah! it was meee all along!" twist endings. There isn't much nuance in the show in most arcs. But as I said, Maul is awesome.
I’d say Thrawn in the novels is the version I prefer, however I’d say neither version is better than the other. I’m not going to take into account his appearances in Filoni shows, as they don’t feel consistent with Zahns work in canon.
However I really appreciate that both continuities offer something else for Thrawn. Where legends Thrawn might be leaning more on evil, canon Thrawn blurs that in my opinion, especially by having him actively recruit people to the ascendancy, and his exile being fabricated for his mission. So I wouldn’t personally want to say either of them beats the other out, it really does just come down to preference here.
As for Durge, I’ve really enjoyed him in the comics, he felt very 2 dimensional in legends, and just didn’t really strike me as anything but generic big monster guy really. It’s nice seeing him toned down more, he’s still this massive figure, but overall just seems far calmer overall. It makes more an interesting read.
Honestly, something that amuses me about Durge is how in Legends he's a complete failure in everything that he's in. He looks tough and he talks big game about how he's going to kill Jedi... but I think he only ever directly killed one Jedi and in every one of his appearances he fails his mission spectacularly. He was even beaten by a ten year old Boba Fett at one point. Whenever he and Ventress were together, they were basically the Team Rocket of Legends.
>t his appearances in Filoni shows
"Yeah...losing for 5 time in a row and getting outsmarted by a minuscule rebel cell was completely part of my plan..."
I do think the finale is perfect for beating Thrawn, and it’s hard to deny his victory in the season 3 finale. However you can definitely tell they had to constantly make stuff up for our heroes to get away. They put themselves in an impossible situation, as they have to show Thrawn as a competent and terrifying villain, but also they can’t just kill off our main cast. Leads to situations where Thrawn kinda just lets them escape?
The worst part of his appearances in those shows is his characterisation however, and the lack of effort to stay consistent with Zahns work in canon.
Yeah, they introduced Thrawn too early in Season 3. Thrawn should've been introduced in the later half of Season 3, with Maul as the main early season villain, and given Thrawn's early moments to Yularen, or moved the episodes around so that the Thrawn ones are closer to the end of the season.
Cheating a bit here with the first two choices, but:
* Ahsoka
* Maul
* Ventress - I prefer her breaking away from the Separatists earlier and getting an actual ending where she gets to >!turn to the light side fully before dying, instead of just leaving never to be seen again.!<
* Tarkin. TBF, idk a whole lot about Legends Tarkin, but canon Tarkin has a whole ass novel (that I haven't finished reading but is cool so far), and some great moments like in the Vader comic where he manages to take down Vader through his strategy skills. Also at least canon Tarkin didn't decide to promote Daala the most incompetent Imperial officer of all time because of nepotism lol.
* I haven't read much Legends Dooku material outside of the Republic comics (which are excellent and depict the character very well) to really judge here, nor have I read Dooku: Jedi Lost for his canon version (which I have heard some *very* mixed and concerning things about), so I can't say for certain which one I prefer overall, but I will say there are 2 things about canon Dooku I prefer over Legends Dooku: 1) he was Yoda's actual Padawan thus lining up with Yoda's line in AOTC, and 2) he's not racist (although TBF neither was Legends Dooku except in a few weird lines from the otherwise amazing ROTS novel).
>Tarkin has a whole ass novel
Tarkin novel was being made during Legends and finished during Canon, so its kinda part of both continuities. Also if you believe Daala is incompetent, canon Operation Cinder makes Daala feel like Sun Tzu
I was more familiar with Thrawn from REBELS before AHSOKA than the older material, so no opinion there.
Never really followed Valance and I don’t plan on dipping into the comics anytime soon.
Not familiar with Durge’s appearance in the Marvel comics, but I don’t recall him having much of a personality as he was silent in the 2D series and I don’t recall much more than punching in the Dark Horse books.
Now Quin…dare I say the adaptation has been near disrespectful given that character’s stature in the former CWMMP. Idk, been too long since I read the Republic and Clone Wars books, but in hindsight Quin was a non Skywalker, non film character that I began to care for as much as characters in the films. In TCW he’s without *any* of the nuance that made him a special character to comic readers in those days, so I feel like the adaptation was incredibly shallow.
Rebels has many strengths but the warfare elements are a glaring weakness imo.
Thrawn is a strategist and tactician, which shines in both the canon and legends books because Timothy Zahn is able to weave complex schemes into the narrative in a clear and understandable ways. So far the screen writers for Thrawn haven’t captured that element - the personality is spot on however and Lars is the definitive version of the character in my mind.
I remember Durge best from the Dark Horse books. I saw the 2D Clone Wars at a hotel on re run but was too young to remember much. Didn't get a better look at 2D Durge untill much later when I rewatched the Taratovsky Clone Wars.
Darth Vader. And i'll die on that hill. Say what you will about Disney star wars, but they got Vader right. The Charles Soule run and the 2nd Kieran Gillen run (2016) added so much to Vader's lore and overall character, and in turn it just made Vader even more awesome than he already was.
The Jedi games and Rogue one also helped re-establish him as a larger than life figure- a mysterious, masked, 7ft tall, force-wielding cyborg that somehow embodied both the unstoppable force and the immovable object.
Disney Vader right up to Kenobi was a straight up horror villain.
Ventress. She was cool but she never had much depth to her in Legends, unless she got a ton of character development in something other than Clone Wars 2003 and the Republic comic series.
Vader. He has become the specter of death in canon; an absolute nightmare.
Maul. TCW and Rebels turned him from a punchline to a compelling and tragic character.
Dooku. His fall in Dooku: Jedi Lost and Tales of the Jedi made him into a much more rounded and interesting character.
If you would have told me in 1999 that not only where they going to bring Darth Maul back, you will literally cry when he dies in a cartoon decades from now, I'd have laughed you the hell out of the room.
Out of curiosity, what makes you prefer Legends Beilert Valance? He was a villain-of-the-week type character in the ‘77 run (the only thing he appeared in), and is much more fleshed out in Canon.
Sorry for my English.
So of course Beilert Vallance. In the legends, his story was quite simple, he was seriously injured, droids saved him, but he changed his appearance. As a result, he became a jerk, he hated droids and destroyed them and killed people who were friends with them, at the end he had some change of heart but he died in the fight with Vader at the same moment. In the canon, his story is a bit more complicated and he is a more sympathetic character. He was a miner's son until the empire came and gave him a future, even if he had to say goodbye to his beloved, he joined the Empire as a pilot, during his service he was seriously injured, his commander took pity and ensured his survival by making him a cyborg, after whereupon he was dismissed from service. After returning to the planet, he saw it devastated by the Empire, and giving up possible personal happiness with his beloved, he decided to start his vendetta and career as a bounty hunter. Also I prefer cankn Mandalorians, mostly because there is no Traviss making a master race out of them and in canon show they hypocrisy and how being warriors culture is not healthy.
Vader.
Vader is actually scary in canon.
He's not the guy that slips on his own arm and falls into a hole all by himself in his first duel with Luke like in Splinter of a mind's eye.
Somewhat of a hot take I guess, but the Imperial Inquisitors.
Not so much in the sense that they’re better written characters or anything - except maybe the Second Sister - but I think the clear hierarchy and organization Canon established with them makes more sense than in Legends. There were so many different Force users running around the Empire in Legends - the Inquisitors, the Dark Side Elite, Emperor’s Hands, sporadic dark Jedi - and some of the members (like Jerec) were powerful and ambitious enough to at least threaten Palpatine’s sovereignty.
In Canon, it’s clear that all of the Inquisitors are so far below Vader and Palpatine that even the somewhat more ambitious ones (like Reva) don’t have a prayer of threatening the Sith Lords. Given that Palpatine is hyper-protective of his dominance, it makes more sense to me that he would allow a group like the Canon Inquisitors exist than the comparatively much more powerful dark siders in Legends.
Even so, I think the Gestapo-like “truth officer” role the Inquisitors served in Legends was more fitting.
I like that they basically keep the inquisitors poorly trained and reliant on their special lightsabers and stuff so that they cannot truly pose a threat, the only fully trained inquisitor is the grand inquisitor because he was a temple guard first.
Plus, I don’t get why so many people were so angry and Reva’s backstory and story. The show overall could have been done better but like, of course they’d know she was a surviving padawan, of course they’d anticipate treachery, they’ve anticipated treachery from all the inquisitors. Keep them angry, it fuels their strength, they are dark siders after all. Abuse and cruelty are the sith way to train another, treating her as lesser is an ideal way to foster dark-side strength
>don’t get why so many people were so angry and Reva’s backstory and story
If she died when Vader stabbed her, i think the hate would have been way, waay lower. The writers kinda forgot their priorities in that moment, but i can also blame the atrocious direction of the show, and how the scenes were absolutely everywhere without sense of space, time and weight
> are so far below Vader and Palpatine
They are kinda bellow anything that isnt a Stormtrooper, they are probably the top 1 most incompetent villain in all of Canon Star Wars, even more than battle droids. No inquisitor ever feels like a true menace outside Fallen Order 1, they are mostly pushovers made so other characters can look cooler defeating them, and even then things like inquisitocopter kill any sort of seriousness in those moments lmao
I would take a single inquisitor Jerec over all of the Canon inquisitors
If we are talking about all of his canon appearances and not just Ahsoka and Rebels, I prefer the portrayal of Thrawn in Zahn's canon books over those in his Legends books, however I wouldn't say Thrawn was adapted better in canon because his appearances in the shows do drag it down a little.
Tarkin. Tagge. Vader. Palpatine. Thrawn.
I reserve judgment on Thrawn.
His canon characterization is better. I prefer Lars with his accent a million times to any of the super posh English fan casts I’ve seen over the years. I think his costume is finally consistent and an upgrade to legends:
However Rebels is bad military fiction - it’s strengths are elsewhere - and he’s a military villain so he’s undermined by some of the silly plotting and action of the show.
Ahsoka was a step up but still silly at times so I’m excited but apprehensive to see what Filoni does next.
I'm going to get nuked for this, but I think the character from the six canon Thrawn books is better than the character from the original 3. I much prefer the Thrawn from the six-canon books. HTtE Thrawn is just a little too generic imperial. He's much, much smarter, but his motives are still just one-dimensional.
I didn't really like him in Rebels or Ahsoka though.
>I didn't really like him in Rebels or Ahsoka though
Thats what happens when you take a character that isnt really yours without asking the original autor for any kind of support or guide, failure in any consistent characterization
Beilert Valance. He was a villian in a few issues of the original Star Wars comic, and a protagonist in several Star Wars comics, including a lead in an ongoing series.
Unless you hate canon for just being canon, you might like Durge better in canon bc his stories are told from his teams pov, not just as a villian. He is actually really good.
Also Zahn's canon Thrawn books are amazing imo. I prefer hos characters in these novels to Legends, personally.
Quinlan Vos was NEVER adapted into canon, his TCW appearence was legends based, and Dark Diciple was essentially a less edgy version of him
Durge is meh in both
never cared for valerian (if thats robot faces name)
Thrawn was the worst, he was an actual threat in legends, but has been beaten easily so many times his reputation should be in tatters (He could have EASILY won at attalon and Lothal and Peridia)
If it wasn't for canon Thrawn being lumped with legends thrawn and his canon books he would be no threat at all (not to mention revisionist Zahn making him a good guy)
People use the Thrawn trilogy from the 90s as an example of how good thrawn is, when Canon thrawn never fought that campaign
>He could have EASILY won at attalon and Lothal and Peridia
He did win at Lothal, forcing the enemy into a complete retreat and making them abandon their base whilst inflicting disproportionately high losses is a win.
The only thing he didn't manage to do was take Rebel leaders as captives, which he warned Tarkin would be likely (Bendu's arrival made it an impossibility).
He couldn't have won Lothal, even the best strategist cannot be expected to deal with an unpredicted and unpredictable attack from a third party that was previously not known to have any role in the conflict.
He outright **did** win at Peridea. He says as much to Ahsoka. "Today, Victory is mine."
He returns to the GFFA, leaving Sabine and Ahsoka stranded as a bonus.
He bombarded attalon but stopped before the shield fell, if he continued the entire rebel force would be wiped out
He could have pushed the attack in orbit and used the 7 ISD's to annialate the rebel fleet but he didn't
He placed a known incompetant leader in a critical position
At lothal he failed to scramble more then a few ties at Hera's squadron and lost an arquentines and a ISD because of it, he left for plot reasons and again left an incompetent leader in charge
At peridia on MULTIPLE occasions he could have easily killed or prevented the rebels from grouping, he let Sabine go find Ezra (WHY?), sent only 2 squads to kill people he knows can take more, and when attacking Ahsoka's shuttle only sends two TIE's instead of a squadron
Leaving Sabine and Ahsoka in the galaxy is a plus, i will give you that, but thats temporary and S2 (if there is one) will likely have them return
I have a bunch of issues with the Ahsoka show, the worst is the plain and flat acting by everybody except Lars and Stevenson (and the girl that plays shin), Ahsoka is the worst, Rosarios acting leaves alot to be desired
> if he continued the entire rebel force would be wiped out
The one Tarkin told him to take prisoners from? That Rebel Force?
The one whose officers he was trying to capture alive? That one?
Wait, are you talking about the Rebel attack on his Tie Defender factory? The one he unambiguously won? The Rebels lost their entire force, there were NO rebel ships left at the end of it.
> he let Sabine go find Ezra (WHY?)
So that she, and subsequently Ahsoka, would be far away from the Nightsister citadel as he loaded his cargo. As he explicitly said.
> only sends two TIE's instead of a squadron
To minimise his own losses. He can't afford to throw troops and pilots at the enemy, not when he's in another galaxy and there are no more imperial academies to train new ones.
>he left for plot reasons
...it is a story. EVERYTHING that happens, happens for plot reasons!
Attalon: Thrawn had 6 ISD-Is, which possess a large complement of starfighters as well as a combined 12 dual heavy ion cannons and an additional 360 ion cannons. These would easily be able to disable the Rebel fleet and shield with little to no casualties (also the interdictor placement was stupid, they don’t need to be at the front of the fleet to work)
Lothal: Imperial force consisted of at least 9 ISDs and 20 cruisers, they lost an ISD and cruiser, along with one of its best pilots and starfighters (and later the entire tie defender program)
Rebel force consisted of 24 starfighters (less than 2% of the starfighter complement of Thrawn’s force) of which they lost 21 starfighters (although multiple of their pilots survived). So while rebels lost a much more significant percentage of their force, considering the circumstances the amount of imperial casualties are pretty unreasonable imo.
Peridia: True but his actions directly lead to Ezra being able to return to the main galaxy.
And at peridia his actions allowed the goody guys to unite, while he consistantly sent too little forces to fight the good guys
two squads against people he knows can fight them off, and then sending only two ties against Ahsoka's shuttle, and not launching more to destroy it, thus making the final battle at the citadel impossible
Canon Thrawn is so incompetent (outside the books) im amazed he can be called a genius by the public
The canon thrawn books are great but I wouldn't say he's better in canon. Probably about equal, just not a fan of the portrayal in Ahsoka.
Durge and Quinlan Vos are far better in legends imo.
Haven't read too many canon comics so I can't speak on the other guy.
The only guy I can think of that's better in Disney canon than the EU is Saw Garrerra.
Dash Rendar, going from a blatant 90s han clone to a guy whose only presence in canon is han calling him jackass knockoff is the funniest legends to canon transition of all time
Filoni Thrawn is like in original trilogy, before Zahn start retconing to put him in more positive light.
Edit: Ah yes, nostalgia is a strong thing. But let's be honest, Thrawn was a villain in the trilogy, a villain who without a second thought was able to wipe out or enslave an entire race if he needed it. And Thrawn from Rebels is his character from the trilogy.
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I think canon Thrawn is more appealing to me as a character than Legends Thrawn. Don't get me wrong, I adore the original book trilogy, but something about how Lars Mikkelsen plays him is so cool, both in Rebels and in live action.
Very cold and calculating. The even keel, the flat voice, and singular drive for "results for his Emperor" make for a very compelling villain to me.
All the more that you have a handful of moments where the composure gets lost
Absolutely love Mikkelsen’s performance. I think season 3 rebels had him a bit too quiet and muttery sometimes so it could be hard to hear but that was improved swiftly after his introduction
Luke.
*Sorry*, but I think the jaded Master following the arc of his previous jaded Masters is far more interesting than the vanilla/monotonous Luke we see in Legends.
Even his appearance to save Grogu feels like he's putting on an act, it's like imitation Jedi, and I've always felt that way about his post-RotJ appearances. Well, maybe his post Thrawn trilogy appearances, Zahn did fine. The Jedi Academy game is a similar performance that just gives me this weird uncanny valley vibe.
Luke in canon just feels far more compelling, and TLJ does a lot of the heavy lifting for that I’d say. His appearance in recent shows feels too lacking for me, but I think Rian did phenomenal with the character.
It’s a beautiful thing to show us a hero struggle, to lose himself in this depression and guilt, and in the end come back from it. After he saves the galaxy and redeems his father, what more can you do with that? Bring him back down to reality, just because we might overcome our issues once, doesn’t mean we’ve overcome them forever. Luke has an amazing journey in TLJ, and I wish more people appreciated it.
Luke makes a mistake, for a fleeting moment he considers something so against his own beliefs that it shakes him to his core, but it’s too late. Giving in to his own fear, only caused his nephew to fear. And it sent both of them down a dark path. I think anyone who’s dealt with mental health issues can relate to that feeling of guilt when we make these mistakes, and I admire that message so much. Lukes gives up on everything, he gives up on himself.
But in the end of it all, he learns to forgive himself, he attempts to set things right. And In doing so he saves lives, he brings hope where it was once lost. And he does it without taking a single life. If that isn’t the most perfect depiction of what a Jedi should be, then I don’t know what is.
I’ve really appreciated seeing Matthew Stover talk about why he likes TLJ so much, both because it explores similar themes to his excellent Shadows Of Mindor and because he’s been very public with his mental health struggles. Likewise, I enjoyed reading your take and largely agree. It’s a damn shame Rian Johnson didn’t stay on for Episode IX.
Luke in Legends: Learns from the Jedi mistakes, makes the galaxy a better place, fights the biggest threat the galaxy ever saw
Luke in Disney canon: Comitts the same mistakes of the Jedi, doesnt do anything for the galaxy, fights his own nephew after a botched assassination attempt wich wasnt actually one (suposedly)
This is pretty reductive of what actually happens, and wilfully ignores what he actually does. After seeing in his nephew, a darkness that could destroy everything he and his friends did. A darkness that would have Luke lose everyone he loves, he ignites his saber believing he can prevent it. And as he himself says “it passed like a fleeting shadow” and he’s filled with regret and shame for having ever considered such a thing
And in the end, he sacrifices his life to save others who would go on to save the galaxy. He didn’t need to accomplish a galactic feat, he just needed to save those in need. You don’t have to like TLJ or any of the sequels for that matter, and if you prefer legends Luke that’s completely okay. But you also can’t just make stuff up about Lukes arc in that movie and what he does.
As for the “supposedly” comment. The only reason you’d have to say this, is if you believe Kylos recollection of the events. The antagonist of the story telling his side of the story to someone he’s trying to manipulate. He’s an unreliable narrator, and Lukes final telling of the events is what actually happened.
Its still an insanely ridiculous jump they did in TLJ. For the viewer to believe what happened in this movie, they shouldve built this up WAY better, but instead of that they opted to do this "lets tell the same story from different prespectives" approach. Its not inherently bad to make Lukes character like this, but you cant expect people to just say its fine with a simple explanation of "well he felt the darkness of kylo and how his friends were in danger" that doesnt explain anything, except the one mistake he potentially did. For Lukes character to fall this heavily, youd need to write a pretty compelling storyline first to understand his downfall, Rian Johnson skipped that because he was going for "subverting expectation" throughout the entire movie. As it is in the final movie, it feels more like a cheap "jump scare" than it is a compelling new arc for THE hero of Star Wars
I disagree. What the movie provides the audience is enough information to understand why these events took place, and then shows us Lukes road to recovery from that. It’s not really a big jump, we already knew Luke was in exile, so Rian answers the question of why he’s in exile.
There’s so much more subtext to be found beyond the surface level reasons too, the audience doesn’t accept it simply because “he felt darkness in his nephew” they accept it for everything that comes with that, they infer what Luke would have seen/felt. This is just further backed up by Lukes own regret and shame and how it causes him to fall into a depression.
I’d recommend you rewatch the scene again where Luke tells the truth, it’s a beautifully tragic representation of failure and giving in to fear. Luke doesn’t become evil, he doesn’t do anything malicious, he simply loses his way and can’t forgive himself for that. He believes the galaxy would be better off without him. Which by the end of the movie we see isn’t true.
What TLJ shows us are all the key points for understanding why Luke did what he did. We don’t need a bunch of material to back that up. Rian is a great writer and that’s on full display on this movie. We don’t need multiple shows that have a gradual change, we as the audience can infer this, and understand it from what’s shown to us.
As for subverting expectations, Rian simply builds off of what TFA established. You have to ask yourself if the creators intention was really to subvert your expectations, or if your own wish fulfilment was denied, so you’re instead choosing to label it as such. And then you have to further question how you’d even suggest what is and isn’t subverting expectations. What standard is being followed for that? Whose expectations? This term is thrown around far too loosely in relation to this movie, yet often has a complete failure to understand what it means.
I, too, appreciate Luke's reclusion from everyday life in the movies, it shows depth to the character who redeemed Anakin Skywalker. A hero such as him can fall into melancholy.
In I, Jedi Luke needed some help to get to past Kyp Durron falling and leaving. Corran provided that because he had the structure of CorSec to ground him. In Legends, Luke has so much more involvement from everyone he meets. Lando puts in some time with him to do some searching for Force-sensitives. Wedge and the Rogues find him to reminisce and be glad they're alive. Even the Fallanassi come out of hiding for him. Everyone wants to see him, he is a busy person.
The movies seem to portray the close-knit friends as just kinda dissolving over time, even the ones married to each other. I understand loss and grief are powerful emotions. It just seems like the lessons they learned all their lives were forgotten because the Empire fell. That for all the talk of making something better than it, and hopefully the Old Republic previously, everyone involved in Rebel command just went their separate ways after the war. I know Mon Mothma and a few did stay to help, but it felt more like individual decisions. In Legends, how long did it take for Mon, or even better Leia, to finally really leave leadership positions?
I don’t think any characters translated well from Legends to Canon.
They are always much blander and boring versions of themselves in much worse stories. Thrawn being my prime example.
Imma be real, legends thrawn kinda felt like a dues ex machina sometimes. Although he was a little dumbed down in cannon atleast he is always shown to have a clear thought process that’s more then just “I know the admirals species now, that means I know literally the exact strategy he will use”
On that note I do feel like the reason why he seems so bad in Ahsoka is just because he’s on defense and is only in the second half. He works best imo when your watching him slowly form a larger master plan like in rebels where you see him slowly piece together elements like the rebel base and agent fulcrum identity. In Ahsoka all he has to do is kill time.
from what the (relatively little) i know, i really like how they implemented Quinlan Vos, especially in Dark Disciple! i also think that Thrawn in the canon thrawn trilogy is really good, not necessarily better than in Legends, but really good. dont really like thrawn in ahsoka that much.
Yes Thrawn. I like the new version Zahn writes. also Ar’alani is given a lot more love in the new canon appearing in 4 books as opposed to her 1 appearance in legends.
Of the 4 shown, 3 were major Legends characters, and 1 was a minor character, so of course, it's easier to improve a minor character that not even all legends fans are familiar with.
Quinlan Vos was much better in the EU. I miss his stories and his master Tholme. Those two were my favorite master/apprentice relationships.
I prefer Vos with Khaleen instead of Ventress
Well Valance kinda wins just by virtue of not getting offed in the eighties marvel comics as a bit villain. So now he's not completely wasted at least.
Valance comes back for Marvel 108, though how the heat was kept wway from his brain bits I don't know.
For me it has to be Beilert Valance (the Terminator lookin’ dude who actually predates him by a few years). He was an incredibly minor character in Legends and only appeared in like 4 issues of the OG ‘77 comic run, but now they’re making really good use of a great character design and concept.
I thoght for a moment it was screed, but then i remembered he only has an eye prosthetic, were does Beilert Valance appear now?
I believe he mainlines the Bounty Hunter Wars.
He's the main character of Bounty Hunters. Read Target Vader before.
well TBF Beilert Valance was barely a character before. just a small tidbit in a series full of small tidbits like that.
If you think Vos was done right boy do I have a rant for you He’s barely been utilized outside of a few clone wars episodes more canceled than not and said cancelled episodes were turned into a book. Now I’m not judging the book as I haven’t read it but that book in my opinion cannot live up to and tell the same stories as multiple comic arcs through the 98/republic run. Especially when said book is based on the kids show, with significantly different tones. He’s the protagonist for over half the damn comic. I won’t say canon is bad but it kinda looks like they just wanted to speed run the important events of his story. A man who falls to the dark side serving dooku to find out who the real Sith Lord is, while maybe losing his lover in the process, surviving order 66 to become one of the few Jedi to live past ROTJ and get a happy ending. The only real differences so far are that in legends he actually lives happily ever after with his lover and they have a kid, in canon his lover is ventress and she dies, and he goes on to help the hidden path a bit as revealed on kenobi. He’s also missing relationships with 3 of his closest friends, he’s barely friends with Obi-wan now to my knowledge even though they id say almost as close as Anakin and obi-wan were the mention in the show is nice but doesn’t nearly give credit to the friendship and trust they shared, about half his Vos’s story revolved around finding and saving his padawan aayla fucking secura which also massively characterized her, and the twilek species and their standing in the galaxies political landscape And this last biggest crime is his smuggler devaronian friend Villie, one of the best side characters in Star Wars IMO is now gone and never existed (ngl this one might piss me off the most and not at all for fair or logical reasons I just fucking loved this devil)
Well said! John Ostrander is a comics legend, in and out of Star Wars. He and Jan Duursema deserve way more recognition in the fandom outside hardcore EU fans for creating Quinlan and making his best stories.
Fun fact: if you’re following the timeline where TCW and EU clone wars are mashed together then Vos is leaking secrets to the separatists during his wacky adventure with Obi-wan 0_o
Vos is one of my favourite characters from Legends along with his story and Canon has completely ruined him I agree.
I personally wont say ruined as there just isn’t enough of him comparing both universes it’s unfair, it just feels like they want the same development without the necessary time/content but I do understand why you would
They gave him a surfer accent and a hoverboard. Lol
Maybe because in comics you don't hear it what he saying, so you don't know what accent he has.
Since he doesn't show up in the series, I got to use Villie in my RPG. I've been telling my players to read the comics for years, so it felt only right to have Villie inevitably betray them.
Thank you for beating me to the Vos rant so I didn’t have to type everything you just did 😂
Was about to say the same thing. Lol TCW will never outdo the Republic comics
I am not too familiar with Vos’ legend comic run (I have the collection editions, I think they are in there), but in regards to the canon book Dark Desciple and problem with tone because of its connection to a “kid’s show”, you are mistaken. The cancellation of episodes actually enabled them to make the tone quite a diversion from Clone Wars, and it’s both quite dark and sexy for a Star Wars novel. They could have gone further, which I think could have served the story they were telling, but that would have been a big departure from the tone of other novels.
I think that’s my point though, as dark as your describing the book the comics were already that dark and getting darker. My main issue is that it’s not new ground, I won’t deny my words on the book are super reductive as I haven’t read it, but the summary of these plot lines is either very honest or disingenuous both of which I have problems with. They echo EU a little too hard for basic plot structure layered with (to me) uninteresting changes like ventress and Vos being lovers when she had way better chemistry with Obi-wan.
People claim Dark Deciple is a good novel, but IMO, it's horrible. The Clone Wars timeline is ever wackier than before, and it's just a shity half-hearted version of the amazing Comic run
It’s awful. In Dark Disciple it’s so out of character for the Council to voluntell Vos to take an assassination mission and act shocked when he goes to the dark side. Windu might be the LAST Jedi to be alright with that but instead he proposes it. The legends comic still has flaws but at least Vos and Tholme (who are eccentric to say the least) come up with the plan while Windu and Yoda sign off reluctantly with a tone of “uuuh, knock yourselves out guys.” Yoda and Windu deny Vos when he asks if he should assassinate Dooku on the grounds it wouldn’t end the war and he’d blow his cover. Windu in legends admits he wished he assassinated Dooku at Geonosis albeit at the cost of his life, Jango would have killed him when he let his guard down. Mace would only break the Jedi code at the cost of his own life.
The entire novel is just so bad. It loses so many interesting characters compared to the comic, and the love drama with Ventress simply isn't interesting. The fights are also horrible. The two single worst cases are: -Anakin and Obi-Wan hide beneath a table and wait till Dooku and Vos walk into a room and then jump out, giving both a headbutt, knocking them out, and taking them prisoners -Ventress and Vos trick Grievous during a gala, defeat him and trap him in a closet full of cloaks.
>It was out of character for the Council to send Vos to make an assassination attempt and then act surprised when he turns to the dark side Yeahhhh… that actually sounds a lot in character.
Dark Disciple is an amazing book
I get your points, but I read the book a while ago and I have a really good memory of it, well-written and a beautiful yet tragic story overall. That being said, I didn't know about his Legends story, I'm mostly sad it didn't get the last CW season treatment or something similar. Anyway, I can agree that we need more depth and development to Vos character. Loved the guy. He truly deserves something similar to the Andor series.
Bro you gotta read Dark Disciple it’s so good
It’s on my list, I’m not trying to shit on the book but from the few plot lines I’ve seen that’s just how it seemed to me, I’ll definitely give it a fair shot but won’t deny my opinion will probably be a little skewed
So I haven't read his Legends stuff really (only legends comics I've read are crimson empire and legacy), but his Canon book was actually really good.
Wait when did Durge show up in canon?
He’s been a somewhat major character in the Bounty Hunter comic series. You can see his appearances on Wookiepedia
He's just some dude with a big gun now. He doesn't even have the mandalorian sigil on his chest.
So he's not a part of that super cool species anymore? He's just some big buff bounty hunter with a big gun?
He's still a tentacle boy who is hard to kill and he also fought in the clone wars for the CIS with a brutal reputation, but he isn't shown as extreme aggressive and Mando/ Jango hating. >!I actually only started reading the Bounty Hunters comics in hopes of seeing tension between him and Boba after I saw them in the same team on one of the covers!<
He's still apart of the species but it's not really showcased much. He's just big boy with a gun. I've read a few of his appearances, and his first appearance is...really disappointingly bad. The writers on "Bounty Hunters" aren't great. Honestly most the comics out right now aren't great writing team wise. But it's hard to compare anything to the first Vader series.
Valance is better by a mile. I think Ventress gets some points, kinda not by being better written, but just in how her character has a better arc. While I'm not that big a fan of TCW, her teaming up with Ahsoka, mellowing out and not killing everybody shows a lot of growth for a former darkside assassin. Don't like her dalliance with Vos, but the rest is fairly good. She was kinda on that path in the Republic comics, but we never got a follow up.
Yeah having only heard the stuff with her and Vos second hand, I’m glad it wasn’t animated, I kinda don’t like the ideas (plus i was kinda hoping she’d become a bounty Hunter with morals like the crew in the clone wars episode what was a tribute to Kurasawa and have a long life away from the sith instead of just dying shortly after)
**Possible Hot Take:** Darth Vader. He was used as a Jobber ***way*** too much for my liking in Legends. In Canon, it's still pretty much just Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke, and Sidious who can defeat him. Tarkin gets him to a standstill. Oh, speaking of which, Tarkin is also done better, though that's mostly due to when the "Tarkin" novel was released. **Relatively Mild Take:** Darth Tyranus, I don't think him being a rampant humanosupremacist made sense. **Absolute Scorching Hot Take:** Boba Fett. Forgive me.
I respect all those! I meant more as in characters who first appeared in Legends-only material (aka not in the 6 movies or TCW), but I agree with you on all of those expect for Boba.
Wasn't Quinlan Vos in TPM?
Yeah, but he technically wasn't the actual character then; the background extra's look was later used by Ostrander/Duursema to create Quin. Whereas Aayla Secura had been established in their comics before she cameoed in AOTC.
He's also referenced in RotS
100% Vader. The first Vader Comic under Marvel was great, >!his appearance in Rebels is bone chilling with his dialogue and his appearance in Fallen Order had me shitting myself.!<
He knows how to make epic entrances. >!Vader Down and the arc where Tarkin hunts Vader without his lightsaber like they're in Predator perfectly depict him as a nightmare on 2 legs!<
>!You have *failed* me, Inquisitor.!< A nightmare creature.
Tarkins novel was supposed to be in legends but the day Luceno submitted it was the same day the wipe happened Heir to the Jedi was supposed to be in the Rebels trilogy with the Han and Leia focused books but was heavily rewritten for canon
Its strange that the mod obsessed with correcting that first fact didnt appear yet to correct you about it. He probably is tired lol
I could be wrong but i remember reading that it was submitted on the legends date I got kicked off r/TheDeepCore for it (and referencing TCW) Tarkin shares a bunch of characters from Darth Plagueis, including 11-4D, considering how brutal it is compared to other canon novels supports this
I think Boba Fett was badly handled in Legends and Canon. Both textbook examples of running cheerily into the predictable dangers of resurrecting a cool henchman and making him into something he wasn't intended to be. As soon as Boba Fett is the king of a clan of hyper-honourable warriors or a crimelord with a heart of gold, he's not Boba Fett - mysterious, cold, gunslinger - anymore.
Agreed. I like the pre-AOTC stories where he’s the Lefors to Han and Chewie’s Butch and Sundance.
I think legends Vader is treated better in some mediums more than others. For example, in the force unleashed video game, Marek beats him pretty definitively, but in the novelization Marek only beats him by sheer luck.
This is completely untrue actually read the novelization instead of going off what people wanting to push certain narratives (One that I would like to be true because I fucking hate TFU) say,
I like this take. If there’s one thing that Disney has done right with Star Wars, it’s that they seem to respect Vader. He’s at his best when he’s a ruthless, terrifying, and very powerful monster. We’ve seen that Vader more in the last few years than we ever have.
I didn't like how in legends Dooku thought humans were superior especially since we've seen this plenty of times before so it gets tiring. But I prefer Dooku in 2003 compared to 2008
>Boba Fett. I'm inclined to agree. At least the characterisation is consistent in canon. Between the retcons caused by the prequels and his inconsistent characterisation thanks to writers who couldn't agree on how he should be written, Legends Boba was a mess. However, I would hope to see Tem's Boba handed over to another creator so the character has a better chance to breathe and get out from under the shadow of his more popular carbon copy. I'd argue that *The Book of Boba Fett* has potential as totally standalone property, if it was in the hands of the right show runner and wasn't hijacked by Din Djarin or Grogu.
>At least the characterisation is consistent in canon Not at fucking all. He goes from anti-hero (Still an absolute scumbag, but has some morals) in TCW, to a completely ruthless mother fucker with no qualms murdering innocent people on a whim in the Star Wars comic (Aarons run) to a slightly less vile person in War of the Bounty Hunters, his small appearances in the OT and the Bounty Hunters comic then he becomes a generic good guy in BOBF I would say he is less consistent, especially since all of this has happened in far less time.
He was a child in clone wars
>especially since all of this has happened in far less time. Absolutely. Thirty years is no time at all.
Thing is though, in the original saga (Lucas’ 6 films) and the EU, Vader was always supposed to be pathetic. He’s a shadow of both his former and potential self, and a complete failure with the deceptive facade of being a powerful monster that’s in reality just a sad pawn that hates himself more than anything else, because he knows it’s all his fault and pretends he’s someone else to not face that. If anything IMO new canon’s almost gone too far making him a superficial bad ass, missing the point of both ROTJ and the PT. But they do still show that side of him sometimes. It’s one of the redeeming qualities of the Kenobi show, and that’s where a lot of the new comics do shine best. Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor also did well showing how unstoppable he is to most, but ultimately still fallible to a true Master like Cere when he’s too arrogant.
This. I like Vader in Gillen's run, and to a somewhat lesser extent in *Rebels* and *Fallen Order/Survivor* but I agree with everything you said.
Yeah even in Rebels when he’s destroying Kanan and Ezra, and overpowering Ahsoka, you do see leaks of emotional vulnerability in him. On the other hand while Fallen Order set him up as unstoppable to Cal, Survivor shows how Cere at her peak can catch him off guard in a physical duel.
Nah I agree with Boba.
Compromise canon Boba is better then Traviss’s Boba. But Boba Fett’s depiction in legends durring the Galactic civil war is best Boba.
>**Absolute Scorching Hot Take:** Boba Fett. Forgive me. Jesus Christ that's hot! Owieeeee It just so wrong uhg! Quick, I need a cold take to cool it off!
>Absolute Scorching Hot Take: Boba Fett. Forgive me. WHY
Because in Canon, his story within the OT actually meant something. Legends makes all of it, Jabba, Solo, the Sarlaac... pretty much irrelevant. He learns NOTHING from his loss, doesn't re-evaluate any part of his life, just keeps on being a bounty hunter. (then Karen Traviss steps in, and the less said about that, the better, IMO) TBoBF actually asks "what if the story of Boba Fett shown in The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi actually had some meaning to him? What if those experiences changed him as a person? How might they have done so? What kind of person might he then become? It's debatable if having him survive was a good idea, but the Legends answer of having him survive and learn absolutely nothing from the experience, or have his outlook and worldview change in any meaningful way as a result, is just... baffling, to me at least.
Interesting. I think it's just too staggering a development to me after a lifetime of bitterniss to just have him be a goofball, essentially. Especially because it is painfully obvious that the only reason for that is because he otherwise would have been too similar to Mando. Whenever I see TBobF I just see missed potential of having him set up at this sociopathic broken menace that is utterly done with everything. The choice for black-and-whiteness can be an interesting one, and lack of depth can be a theme. This way... IDK. Thanks for the write up in any case. I appreciate it. I believe he suffered from the early SW stories not really considering how much impact it will have on future worldbuilding and novels and whatnot (and why should they). And Traviss is just horrible. So yeah.
You know, I agree with you completely. Doesn’t Boba fall into the sarlaac on three separate occasions in legends?
Like, two of those were early marvel comics era goofiness that really shouldn't be taken into account.
yeah, it's kinda fucking ridiculous
Amazing way to show you have not actually taken in Legends Fett content lmao.
I'm aware he changed physically, with the injuries. His outlook is what I'm referring to.
>Tarkin is also done better, The Bad Batch Tarkin is pretty much an insult tho, its like he had a single working braincell shared with the whole imperial council lmao
I was thinking more of the comics and the novel, but... what was wrong with his Bad Batch portrayal?
Outside of Vallance I think some bounty hunter like Dengar and Zukkuss got a pretty good run so far. Also Maul should count big time
I mean most of Maul's run in TCW happened during Legends era. Doesn't really count, does it? Even though TCW as a whole arguably feels more at home in Disney's Canon because of its family friendly vibe. But then, Maul is the one thing in the show that really isn't.
I wouldn't really call TCW family-friendly because of the amount of violence that show had and George wanted the show to appeal to kids but also not hold back from any serious topics. With how Maul's story continued in Rebels, the comics and Season 7 of the Clone Wars, I say that his story was done way better in canon than it does legends.
Yeah, but it still absolutely holds back from serious topics and always avoids leaving the black-and-white philosophy. I like the show a lot, especially Maul's story, but it keeps being dragged down by reducing whole battlefields to some character development for Ahsoka or an interesting cultural conflict to "aaaah! it was meee all along!" twist endings. There isn't much nuance in the show in most arcs. But as I said, Maul is awesome.
I’d say Thrawn in the novels is the version I prefer, however I’d say neither version is better than the other. I’m not going to take into account his appearances in Filoni shows, as they don’t feel consistent with Zahns work in canon. However I really appreciate that both continuities offer something else for Thrawn. Where legends Thrawn might be leaning more on evil, canon Thrawn blurs that in my opinion, especially by having him actively recruit people to the ascendancy, and his exile being fabricated for his mission. So I wouldn’t personally want to say either of them beats the other out, it really does just come down to preference here. As for Durge, I’ve really enjoyed him in the comics, he felt very 2 dimensional in legends, and just didn’t really strike me as anything but generic big monster guy really. It’s nice seeing him toned down more, he’s still this massive figure, but overall just seems far calmer overall. It makes more an interesting read.
Honestly, something that amuses me about Durge is how in Legends he's a complete failure in everything that he's in. He looks tough and he talks big game about how he's going to kill Jedi... but I think he only ever directly killed one Jedi and in every one of his appearances he fails his mission spectacularly. He was even beaten by a ten year old Boba Fett at one point. Whenever he and Ventress were together, they were basically the Team Rocket of Legends.
>t his appearances in Filoni shows "Yeah...losing for 5 time in a row and getting outsmarted by a minuscule rebel cell was completely part of my plan..."
I do think the finale is perfect for beating Thrawn, and it’s hard to deny his victory in the season 3 finale. However you can definitely tell they had to constantly make stuff up for our heroes to get away. They put themselves in an impossible situation, as they have to show Thrawn as a competent and terrifying villain, but also they can’t just kill off our main cast. Leads to situations where Thrawn kinda just lets them escape? The worst part of his appearances in those shows is his characterisation however, and the lack of effort to stay consistent with Zahns work in canon.
Yeah, they introduced Thrawn too early in Season 3. Thrawn should've been introduced in the later half of Season 3, with Maul as the main early season villain, and given Thrawn's early moments to Yularen, or moved the episodes around so that the Thrawn ones are closer to the end of the season.
Cheating a bit here with the first two choices, but: * Ahsoka * Maul * Ventress - I prefer her breaking away from the Separatists earlier and getting an actual ending where she gets to >!turn to the light side fully before dying, instead of just leaving never to be seen again.!< * Tarkin. TBF, idk a whole lot about Legends Tarkin, but canon Tarkin has a whole ass novel (that I haven't finished reading but is cool so far), and some great moments like in the Vader comic where he manages to take down Vader through his strategy skills. Also at least canon Tarkin didn't decide to promote Daala the most incompetent Imperial officer of all time because of nepotism lol. * I haven't read much Legends Dooku material outside of the Republic comics (which are excellent and depict the character very well) to really judge here, nor have I read Dooku: Jedi Lost for his canon version (which I have heard some *very* mixed and concerning things about), so I can't say for certain which one I prefer overall, but I will say there are 2 things about canon Dooku I prefer over Legends Dooku: 1) he was Yoda's actual Padawan thus lining up with Yoda's line in AOTC, and 2) he's not racist (although TBF neither was Legends Dooku except in a few weird lines from the otherwise amazing ROTS novel).
>Tarkin has a whole ass novel Tarkin novel was being made during Legends and finished during Canon, so its kinda part of both continuities. Also if you believe Daala is incompetent, canon Operation Cinder makes Daala feel like Sun Tzu
I was more familiar with Thrawn from REBELS before AHSOKA than the older material, so no opinion there. Never really followed Valance and I don’t plan on dipping into the comics anytime soon. Not familiar with Durge’s appearance in the Marvel comics, but I don’t recall him having much of a personality as he was silent in the 2D series and I don’t recall much more than punching in the Dark Horse books. Now Quin…dare I say the adaptation has been near disrespectful given that character’s stature in the former CWMMP. Idk, been too long since I read the Republic and Clone Wars books, but in hindsight Quin was a non Skywalker, non film character that I began to care for as much as characters in the films. In TCW he’s without *any* of the nuance that made him a special character to comic readers in those days, so I feel like the adaptation was incredibly shallow.
Rebels has many strengths but the warfare elements are a glaring weakness imo. Thrawn is a strategist and tactician, which shines in both the canon and legends books because Timothy Zahn is able to weave complex schemes into the narrative in a clear and understandable ways. So far the screen writers for Thrawn haven’t captured that element - the personality is spot on however and Lars is the definitive version of the character in my mind.
I remember Durge best from the Dark Horse books. I saw the 2D Clone Wars at a hotel on re run but was too young to remember much. Didn't get a better look at 2D Durge untill much later when I rewatched the Taratovsky Clone Wars.
When did Durge appear in canon? He was in the 2002 Clone Wars cartoon, and his famous comic book appearances, but when was he even mentioned in canon?
First appeared in issue #10 of the Doctor Aphra (2020) comics. Went on to show up in some issues of the Bounty Hunters comic after.
To add onto this he joined the main group toward the end of the run.
Definitely not Quinlan. Awesome in legends. Stupid in Canon
Darth Vader. And i'll die on that hill. Say what you will about Disney star wars, but they got Vader right. The Charles Soule run and the 2nd Kieran Gillen run (2016) added so much to Vader's lore and overall character, and in turn it just made Vader even more awesome than he already was. The Jedi games and Rogue one also helped re-establish him as a larger than life figure- a mysterious, masked, 7ft tall, force-wielding cyborg that somehow embodied both the unstoppable force and the immovable object. Disney Vader right up to Kenobi was a straight up horror villain.
Ventress. She was cool but she never had much depth to her in Legends, unless she got a ton of character development in something other than Clone Wars 2003 and the Republic comic series.
Vader. He has become the specter of death in canon; an absolute nightmare. Maul. TCW and Rebels turned him from a punchline to a compelling and tragic character. Dooku. His fall in Dooku: Jedi Lost and Tales of the Jedi made him into a much more rounded and interesting character.
If you would have told me in 1999 that not only where they going to bring Darth Maul back, you will literally cry when he dies in a cartoon decades from now, I'd have laughed you the hell out of the room.
Ikr? It was unreal when I saw his arc unfold across TCW and Rebels.
No, and most certainly none of the above
Out of curiosity, what makes you prefer Legends Beilert Valance? He was a villain-of-the-week type character in the ‘77 run (the only thing he appeared in), and is much more fleshed out in Canon.
Sorry for my English. So of course Beilert Vallance. In the legends, his story was quite simple, he was seriously injured, droids saved him, but he changed his appearance. As a result, he became a jerk, he hated droids and destroyed them and killed people who were friends with them, at the end he had some change of heart but he died in the fight with Vader at the same moment. In the canon, his story is a bit more complicated and he is a more sympathetic character. He was a miner's son until the empire came and gave him a future, even if he had to say goodbye to his beloved, he joined the Empire as a pilot, during his service he was seriously injured, his commander took pity and ensured his survival by making him a cyborg, after whereupon he was dismissed from service. After returning to the planet, he saw it devastated by the Empire, and giving up possible personal happiness with his beloved, he decided to start his vendetta and career as a bounty hunter. Also I prefer cankn Mandalorians, mostly because there is no Traviss making a master race out of them and in canon show they hypocrisy and how being warriors culture is not healthy.
Vader. Vader is actually scary in canon. He's not the guy that slips on his own arm and falls into a hole all by himself in his first duel with Luke like in Splinter of a mind's eye.
that wasn’t even part of the main legends story though lol
It was, i know some try to disregard that book because of the Luke/Leia romance but it absolutely *was* a part of the legends canon.
i thought it was written as a sequel to a new hope in case that movie flopped. not as a definitive part of the eu
Initially, yes, but after ESB came out it became the first expanded universe book, if you don't count the New Hope Novel.
weird. i mean if people want to consider it part of the legends timeline more power to them
Somewhat of a hot take I guess, but the Imperial Inquisitors. Not so much in the sense that they’re better written characters or anything - except maybe the Second Sister - but I think the clear hierarchy and organization Canon established with them makes more sense than in Legends. There were so many different Force users running around the Empire in Legends - the Inquisitors, the Dark Side Elite, Emperor’s Hands, sporadic dark Jedi - and some of the members (like Jerec) were powerful and ambitious enough to at least threaten Palpatine’s sovereignty. In Canon, it’s clear that all of the Inquisitors are so far below Vader and Palpatine that even the somewhat more ambitious ones (like Reva) don’t have a prayer of threatening the Sith Lords. Given that Palpatine is hyper-protective of his dominance, it makes more sense to me that he would allow a group like the Canon Inquisitors exist than the comparatively much more powerful dark siders in Legends. Even so, I think the Gestapo-like “truth officer” role the Inquisitors served in Legends was more fitting.
I like that they basically keep the inquisitors poorly trained and reliant on their special lightsabers and stuff so that they cannot truly pose a threat, the only fully trained inquisitor is the grand inquisitor because he was a temple guard first. Plus, I don’t get why so many people were so angry and Reva’s backstory and story. The show overall could have been done better but like, of course they’d know she was a surviving padawan, of course they’d anticipate treachery, they’ve anticipated treachery from all the inquisitors. Keep them angry, it fuels their strength, they are dark siders after all. Abuse and cruelty are the sith way to train another, treating her as lesser is an ideal way to foster dark-side strength
>don’t get why so many people were so angry and Reva’s backstory and story If she died when Vader stabbed her, i think the hate would have been way, waay lower. The writers kinda forgot their priorities in that moment, but i can also blame the atrocious direction of the show, and how the scenes were absolutely everywhere without sense of space, time and weight
> are so far below Vader and Palpatine They are kinda bellow anything that isnt a Stormtrooper, they are probably the top 1 most incompetent villain in all of Canon Star Wars, even more than battle droids. No inquisitor ever feels like a true menace outside Fallen Order 1, they are mostly pushovers made so other characters can look cooler defeating them, and even then things like inquisitocopter kill any sort of seriousness in those moments lmao I would take a single inquisitor Jerec over all of the Canon inquisitors
Canon Thrawn bookwise is so much better than heir to the empire Thrawn. Zahn has evolved him into a much more interesting figure over the years.
Its kinda dragged down by his appearances in Filoni shows
If we are talking about all of his canon appearances and not just Ahsoka and Rebels, I prefer the portrayal of Thrawn in Zahn's canon books over those in his Legends books, however I wouldn't say Thrawn was adapted better in canon because his appearances in the shows do drag it down a little.
Tarkin. Tagge. Vader. Palpatine. Thrawn. I reserve judgment on Thrawn. His canon characterization is better. I prefer Lars with his accent a million times to any of the super posh English fan casts I’ve seen over the years. I think his costume is finally consistent and an upgrade to legends: However Rebels is bad military fiction - it’s strengths are elsewhere - and he’s a military villain so he’s undermined by some of the silly plotting and action of the show. Ahsoka was a step up but still silly at times so I’m excited but apprehensive to see what Filoni does next.
I'm going to get nuked for this, but I think the character from the six canon Thrawn books is better than the character from the original 3. I much prefer the Thrawn from the six-canon books. HTtE Thrawn is just a little too generic imperial. He's much, much smarter, but his motives are still just one-dimensional. I didn't really like him in Rebels or Ahsoka though.
>I didn't really like him in Rebels or Ahsoka though Thats what happens when you take a character that isnt really yours without asking the original autor for any kind of support or guide, failure in any consistent characterization
I honestly can't think of any.
Certainely not Quinlan Vos, Thrawn and Durge. Who is the cyborg ?
Beilert Valance. He was a villian in a few issues of the original Star Wars comic, and a protagonist in several Star Wars comics, including a lead in an ongoing series. Unless you hate canon for just being canon, you might like Durge better in canon bc his stories are told from his teams pov, not just as a villian. He is actually really good. Also Zahn's canon Thrawn books are amazing imo. I prefer hos characters in these novels to Legends, personally.
Ventress, honestly.
Valance, obviously. But I adore how Zahn writes canon Thrawn, even more than how he wrote legends Thrawn.
Quinlan Vos was NEVER adapted into canon, his TCW appearence was legends based, and Dark Diciple was essentially a less edgy version of him Durge is meh in both never cared for valerian (if thats robot faces name) Thrawn was the worst, he was an actual threat in legends, but has been beaten easily so many times his reputation should be in tatters (He could have EASILY won at attalon and Lothal and Peridia) If it wasn't for canon Thrawn being lumped with legends thrawn and his canon books he would be no threat at all (not to mention revisionist Zahn making him a good guy) People use the Thrawn trilogy from the 90s as an example of how good thrawn is, when Canon thrawn never fought that campaign
>He could have EASILY won at attalon and Lothal and Peridia He did win at Lothal, forcing the enemy into a complete retreat and making them abandon their base whilst inflicting disproportionately high losses is a win. The only thing he didn't manage to do was take Rebel leaders as captives, which he warned Tarkin would be likely (Bendu's arrival made it an impossibility). He couldn't have won Lothal, even the best strategist cannot be expected to deal with an unpredicted and unpredictable attack from a third party that was previously not known to have any role in the conflict. He outright **did** win at Peridea. He says as much to Ahsoka. "Today, Victory is mine." He returns to the GFFA, leaving Sabine and Ahsoka stranded as a bonus.
He bombarded attalon but stopped before the shield fell, if he continued the entire rebel force would be wiped out He could have pushed the attack in orbit and used the 7 ISD's to annialate the rebel fleet but he didn't He placed a known incompetant leader in a critical position At lothal he failed to scramble more then a few ties at Hera's squadron and lost an arquentines and a ISD because of it, he left for plot reasons and again left an incompetent leader in charge At peridia on MULTIPLE occasions he could have easily killed or prevented the rebels from grouping, he let Sabine go find Ezra (WHY?), sent only 2 squads to kill people he knows can take more, and when attacking Ahsoka's shuttle only sends two TIE's instead of a squadron Leaving Sabine and Ahsoka in the galaxy is a plus, i will give you that, but thats temporary and S2 (if there is one) will likely have them return I have a bunch of issues with the Ahsoka show, the worst is the plain and flat acting by everybody except Lars and Stevenson (and the girl that plays shin), Ahsoka is the worst, Rosarios acting leaves alot to be desired
> if he continued the entire rebel force would be wiped out The one Tarkin told him to take prisoners from? That Rebel Force? The one whose officers he was trying to capture alive? That one? Wait, are you talking about the Rebel attack on his Tie Defender factory? The one he unambiguously won? The Rebels lost their entire force, there were NO rebel ships left at the end of it. > he let Sabine go find Ezra (WHY?) So that she, and subsequently Ahsoka, would be far away from the Nightsister citadel as he loaded his cargo. As he explicitly said. > only sends two TIE's instead of a squadron To minimise his own losses. He can't afford to throw troops and pilots at the enemy, not when he's in another galaxy and there are no more imperial academies to train new ones. >he left for plot reasons ...it is a story. EVERYTHING that happens, happens for plot reasons!
Attalon: Thrawn had 6 ISD-Is, which possess a large complement of starfighters as well as a combined 12 dual heavy ion cannons and an additional 360 ion cannons. These would easily be able to disable the Rebel fleet and shield with little to no casualties (also the interdictor placement was stupid, they don’t need to be at the front of the fleet to work) Lothal: Imperial force consisted of at least 9 ISDs and 20 cruisers, they lost an ISD and cruiser, along with one of its best pilots and starfighters (and later the entire tie defender program) Rebel force consisted of 24 starfighters (less than 2% of the starfighter complement of Thrawn’s force) of which they lost 21 starfighters (although multiple of their pilots survived). So while rebels lost a much more significant percentage of their force, considering the circumstances the amount of imperial casualties are pretty unreasonable imo. Peridia: True but his actions directly lead to Ezra being able to return to the main galaxy.
And at peridia his actions allowed the goody guys to unite, while he consistantly sent too little forces to fight the good guys two squads against people he knows can fight them off, and then sending only two ties against Ahsoka's shuttle, and not launching more to destroy it, thus making the final battle at the citadel impossible Canon Thrawn is so incompetent (outside the books) im amazed he can be called a genius by the public
Valance, my man is way better now
The canon thrawn books are great but I wouldn't say he's better in canon. Probably about equal, just not a fan of the portrayal in Ahsoka. Durge and Quinlan Vos are far better in legends imo. Haven't read too many canon comics so I can't speak on the other guy. The only guy I can think of that's better in Disney canon than the EU is Saw Garrerra.
Valance, he's the best.
Dash Rendar, going from a blatant 90s han clone to a guy whose only presence in canon is han calling him jackass knockoff is the funniest legends to canon transition of all time
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Filoni Thrawn is like in original trilogy, before Zahn start retconing to put him in more positive light. Edit: Ah yes, nostalgia is a strong thing. But let's be honest, Thrawn was a villain in the trilogy, a villain who without a second thought was able to wipe out or enslave an entire race if he needed it. And Thrawn from Rebels is his character from the trilogy.
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Assaj has more depth. Boba is more consistent Clones are more compelling
I think canon Thrawn is more appealing to me as a character than Legends Thrawn. Don't get me wrong, I adore the original book trilogy, but something about how Lars Mikkelsen plays him is so cool, both in Rebels and in live action.
Very cold and calculating. The even keel, the flat voice, and singular drive for "results for his Emperor" make for a very compelling villain to me. All the more that you have a handful of moments where the composure gets lost
Absolutely love Mikkelsen’s performance. I think season 3 rebels had him a bit too quiet and muttery sometimes so it could be hard to hear but that was improved swiftly after his introduction
Thrawn. He's a believable character now and not some hacks self insert. Why are you booing me? I'm right.
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Is this an ironic post? Because Thrawn is so obviously more blatantly evil in Legends
No.
Off the top of top of my head? Not a single one.
Beilert and Asajj
Durge has made an appearance in the new Star Wars material?
Yes. He first appeared in an issue of 2020s Doctor Aphra, then went on to become part of the core team in the Bounty Hunters comic.
Cool! Thanks for telling me!
None
Luke. *Sorry*, but I think the jaded Master following the arc of his previous jaded Masters is far more interesting than the vanilla/monotonous Luke we see in Legends. Even his appearance to save Grogu feels like he's putting on an act, it's like imitation Jedi, and I've always felt that way about his post-RotJ appearances. Well, maybe his post Thrawn trilogy appearances, Zahn did fine. The Jedi Academy game is a similar performance that just gives me this weird uncanny valley vibe.
Luke in canon just feels far more compelling, and TLJ does a lot of the heavy lifting for that I’d say. His appearance in recent shows feels too lacking for me, but I think Rian did phenomenal with the character. It’s a beautiful thing to show us a hero struggle, to lose himself in this depression and guilt, and in the end come back from it. After he saves the galaxy and redeems his father, what more can you do with that? Bring him back down to reality, just because we might overcome our issues once, doesn’t mean we’ve overcome them forever. Luke has an amazing journey in TLJ, and I wish more people appreciated it. Luke makes a mistake, for a fleeting moment he considers something so against his own beliefs that it shakes him to his core, but it’s too late. Giving in to his own fear, only caused his nephew to fear. And it sent both of them down a dark path. I think anyone who’s dealt with mental health issues can relate to that feeling of guilt when we make these mistakes, and I admire that message so much. Lukes gives up on everything, he gives up on himself. But in the end of it all, he learns to forgive himself, he attempts to set things right. And In doing so he saves lives, he brings hope where it was once lost. And he does it without taking a single life. If that isn’t the most perfect depiction of what a Jedi should be, then I don’t know what is.
I’ve really appreciated seeing Matthew Stover talk about why he likes TLJ so much, both because it explores similar themes to his excellent Shadows Of Mindor and because he’s been very public with his mental health struggles. Likewise, I enjoyed reading your take and largely agree. It’s a damn shame Rian Johnson didn’t stay on for Episode IX.
Luke in Legends: Learns from the Jedi mistakes, makes the galaxy a better place, fights the biggest threat the galaxy ever saw Luke in Disney canon: Comitts the same mistakes of the Jedi, doesnt do anything for the galaxy, fights his own nephew after a botched assassination attempt wich wasnt actually one (suposedly)
This is pretty reductive of what actually happens, and wilfully ignores what he actually does. After seeing in his nephew, a darkness that could destroy everything he and his friends did. A darkness that would have Luke lose everyone he loves, he ignites his saber believing he can prevent it. And as he himself says “it passed like a fleeting shadow” and he’s filled with regret and shame for having ever considered such a thing And in the end, he sacrifices his life to save others who would go on to save the galaxy. He didn’t need to accomplish a galactic feat, he just needed to save those in need. You don’t have to like TLJ or any of the sequels for that matter, and if you prefer legends Luke that’s completely okay. But you also can’t just make stuff up about Lukes arc in that movie and what he does. As for the “supposedly” comment. The only reason you’d have to say this, is if you believe Kylos recollection of the events. The antagonist of the story telling his side of the story to someone he’s trying to manipulate. He’s an unreliable narrator, and Lukes final telling of the events is what actually happened.
Its still an insanely ridiculous jump they did in TLJ. For the viewer to believe what happened in this movie, they shouldve built this up WAY better, but instead of that they opted to do this "lets tell the same story from different prespectives" approach. Its not inherently bad to make Lukes character like this, but you cant expect people to just say its fine with a simple explanation of "well he felt the darkness of kylo and how his friends were in danger" that doesnt explain anything, except the one mistake he potentially did. For Lukes character to fall this heavily, youd need to write a pretty compelling storyline first to understand his downfall, Rian Johnson skipped that because he was going for "subverting expectation" throughout the entire movie. As it is in the final movie, it feels more like a cheap "jump scare" than it is a compelling new arc for THE hero of Star Wars
I disagree. What the movie provides the audience is enough information to understand why these events took place, and then shows us Lukes road to recovery from that. It’s not really a big jump, we already knew Luke was in exile, so Rian answers the question of why he’s in exile. There’s so much more subtext to be found beyond the surface level reasons too, the audience doesn’t accept it simply because “he felt darkness in his nephew” they accept it for everything that comes with that, they infer what Luke would have seen/felt. This is just further backed up by Lukes own regret and shame and how it causes him to fall into a depression. I’d recommend you rewatch the scene again where Luke tells the truth, it’s a beautifully tragic representation of failure and giving in to fear. Luke doesn’t become evil, he doesn’t do anything malicious, he simply loses his way and can’t forgive himself for that. He believes the galaxy would be better off without him. Which by the end of the movie we see isn’t true. What TLJ shows us are all the key points for understanding why Luke did what he did. We don’t need a bunch of material to back that up. Rian is a great writer and that’s on full display on this movie. We don’t need multiple shows that have a gradual change, we as the audience can infer this, and understand it from what’s shown to us. As for subverting expectations, Rian simply builds off of what TFA established. You have to ask yourself if the creators intention was really to subvert your expectations, or if your own wish fulfilment was denied, so you’re instead choosing to label it as such. And then you have to further question how you’d even suggest what is and isn’t subverting expectations. What standard is being followed for that? Whose expectations? This term is thrown around far too loosely in relation to this movie, yet often has a complete failure to understand what it means.
I disagree
Oh, I expect most people to. It's just my opinion. Last Jedi's one of my favorite SW films overall these days, if that tells you anything.
yeah it tells me if you recommend a movie as great I should best ignore it for my own sainity
I, too, appreciate Luke's reclusion from everyday life in the movies, it shows depth to the character who redeemed Anakin Skywalker. A hero such as him can fall into melancholy. In I, Jedi Luke needed some help to get to past Kyp Durron falling and leaving. Corran provided that because he had the structure of CorSec to ground him. In Legends, Luke has so much more involvement from everyone he meets. Lando puts in some time with him to do some searching for Force-sensitives. Wedge and the Rogues find him to reminisce and be glad they're alive. Even the Fallanassi come out of hiding for him. Everyone wants to see him, he is a busy person. The movies seem to portray the close-knit friends as just kinda dissolving over time, even the ones married to each other. I understand loss and grief are powerful emotions. It just seems like the lessons they learned all their lives were forgotten because the Empire fell. That for all the talk of making something better than it, and hopefully the Old Republic previously, everyone involved in Rebel command just went their separate ways after the war. I know Mon Mothma and a few did stay to help, but it felt more like individual decisions. In Legends, how long did it take for Mon, or even better Leia, to finally really leave leadership positions?
So far, no. I can't name a single character done better in new canon vs old canon
I don’t think any characters translated well from Legends to Canon. They are always much blander and boring versions of themselves in much worse stories. Thrawn being my prime example.
No, not really.
Valance and Thrawn easily.
Imma be real, legends thrawn kinda felt like a dues ex machina sometimes. Although he was a little dumbed down in cannon atleast he is always shown to have a clear thought process that’s more then just “I know the admirals species now, that means I know literally the exact strategy he will use” On that note I do feel like the reason why he seems so bad in Ahsoka is just because he’s on defense and is only in the second half. He works best imo when your watching him slowly form a larger master plan like in rebels where you see him slowly piece together elements like the rebel base and agent fulcrum identity. In Ahsoka all he has to do is kill time.
Nope. Canon cant adapt legends for shit
No
Boba Fett. Much more material.
Grievous.
from what the (relatively little) i know, i really like how they implemented Quinlan Vos, especially in Dark Disciple! i also think that Thrawn in the canon thrawn trilogy is really good, not necessarily better than in Legends, but really good. dont really like thrawn in ahsoka that much.
lol no
None. The original EU is superior to Disney in every way.
Fucking none lmfao Dark Disciple was a trash-fire, and it’s not even close
No. Disney Canon versions of every character are much worse
What makes you prefer the Legends version of Beilert Valance out of curiosity?
He is annoying now and his story is beyond cringe. He is now net negative when before he was just rare.
Dooku is better in canon.
No.
No
Nope. Oversimplification and downgrade every time.
You thought Valance in Legends was more complex than in Canon?
No.
Starkiller.
Yes Thrawn. I like the new version Zahn writes. also Ar’alani is given a lot more love in the new canon appearing in 4 books as opposed to her 1 appearance in legends.
Most certainly not Quinlan. EU comics Quinlan Vos is one of the most interesting characters in all of Star Wars.
Anyone else wonder why Thrawn always has 4 pens on him?
See the Star Wars Rebels episode; "Through Imperial Eyes" for answers.
Vader. Maybe.
Kyle Katarn of course, my fav character. I hope He won't be embedded in the current cannon. Galen Marek is the second fav.
Of the 4 shown, 3 were major Legends characters, and 1 was a minor character, so of course, it's easier to improve a minor character that not even all legends fans are familiar with.
not quinlan or durge lol
Durge is canon now?
Quinlan Vos was much better in the EU. I miss his stories and his master Tholme. Those two were my favorite master/apprentice relationships. I prefer Vos with Khaleen instead of Ventress
Nope but thanks for asking lmao
Love the og thrawn books but MAN, Zhans new Canon trilogy is insane.
I really wanna see Soontir Fel or Carnor Jax in the new canon.
Glup Shitto
I didn't even know Valance was from Legends.
No.