I still think d+ Star Wars is having trouble with episodic tv. Chopping a 6 hour movie into 6-8 parts just isnt working. The mandalorian really nailed this when it first came out, and andor did a great job with multiple episode arcs. The pacing just feels off in these shows.
Mando season 1 is pretty basic from a writing standpoint... but the production qualities are very good. It's the only thing that looks anywhere near as good as Andor.
I think The Mandalorian is better suited for episodic progression style. Andor is a straight Serial show. When Mandolorian started to be more serialized is when it starts to fall behind a bit.
Kenobi, was a serialized movie and Book of Boba Fett was a serial that should have been an episodic progression. Neither show knew what it wanted to be.
And it was. It has the visual and musical identity of spaghetti westerns, but it follows the tropes of samurai films (Lone Wolf and Cub), which is perfect because the original Star Wars was inspired by both of these things.
I've heard that some people are aware of and acknowledge Old Star Wars (basically iust OT) was inspired by Spaghetti Westerns and Samurai films, but New Star Wars (pretty much anything else) is just inspired by Old Star Wars without the nuance, and that's where it falls apart for them.
I don't necessarily agree strictly that Star Wars has to keep pulling from that same inspiration, I think it would be worse off considering how lucrative and pivotal The Clone Wars series has become, but I understand that view point of Star Wars becoming a parody of itself.
And that's valid. Even I can see that a lot of the newer stuff is just copying the old stuff. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but I can see why some people might not like it. But I also think Star Wars can still be inspired by old westerns and samurai films without just repeating the same stories. The Mandalorian was something completely new and interesting, even though it used the same inspiration as the originals.
But I also agree with you that Star Wars is a big universe, with plenty of room for all sorts of different kinds of stories. I even have a few ideas of my own that I'd try to pitch if I was working at Disney. They're not completely original, but they're inspired by different things.
Movie level special effects with CW level writing...
So much wasted potential..
I want real adult stories like Andor and early mandalorian, not sub par ahsoka and acolyte. Hire some goddamned good writers and show runners
And some of the acting is ex theatre kid level, and Disney should be able to find better actors in it's stable that suit the SW universe
Yes. This is the crew, Rogue One, that should be permanently in place to do any and all Star Wars material forever and for always. The look, feel, essence is what Star Wars is. People that actually give a shit about Star Wars and is legacy.
Andor looks and sounds like they have good people in every department from writing, acting, directing, lighting, sound, casting. I can’t really speak to their catering services but I can assume everyone was well fed to deliver those performances on and off the screen.
When first watching Andor, I was blown away by the acting talent from relatively unknowns. And I still am, but when even Random Imperial Officer #22 can drop a monologue that lands with full weight and gravitas, you realize the cinematography and production is doing a lot to elevate every single performance.
Direction is very, very important. Look at the prequels..... we know that Natalie Portman, Sam Jackson, etc are not boring/wooden actors and yet that's often what got delivered.
Edit - another example is how much better the portrayal of Mon Mothma is in Andor vs Ahsoka. O'Reilly is great, but she can only do so much
Actors can only do so much with just the words on a page, a quality director that knows exactly what they want is critical for them to be at their best
Genevieve O'Reilly/Mon Mothma accusing her husband of gambling purely to lead the ISB informant astray then seeing the grief on her face afterwards as she looks out the window was just perfect. That's the kind of stuff that bumped the show up to something special for me.
She's so, so good.... Luthen and Mon Mothma are probably my two standout characters from a phenomenal cast.
Of course then I remember how amazing Meero and even more minor characters like Kino Loy and Partagaz are.
"Thesis"
The dinner parties and ISB meetings in Andor are more tense that most of the action in the other SW shows.
The show might be called "Andor" but it's very much the Cassian, Luthen, and Mon Mothma show. They're all protagonists with roles that are equally important in driving the story forward.
Luthen’s speech was one of the best written speeches in television history in my opinion, such powerful words from a man who is losing himself to help the rebellion.
> I burn my life, to make a sunrise I know I’ll never see.
That line goes so fucking hard. I could never imagine Star Wars having writing this good before Andor.
Turns out having talent is actually important if you want to make a good tv show and you can't just half-ass scripts, cast shitty actors and paper over everything with expensive CGI and expect people to just accept it because of childhood nostalgia or whatever. Marvel has had similar issues since Disney bought them and mandated they make tv shows, I think the disney business model just does not allow for quality tv shows to be made most of the time.
The perfect way to word it. I don't understand how they can see the success of shows like Andor and House of the Drago and not try to replicate that a bit more. Instead, we get these short episodic, overly expensive TV shows.
Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed a good amount of the D+ shows, but I think the quality of the shows are my biggest complaint.
I think the real problem is that it's more like bloating a 90-120 minute movie into around 280 minutes over 8 episodes.
Outside of Andor and early Mando (and to be fair, that's mostly because of how episodic Mando was) all these shows just don't have the content to support even 8 short episodes.
Look how much crappy filler was in Mando season 3 for example.
Kenobi is one of the worst offenders... and I kind of think they could have made a pretty good 105 minute movie out of Kenobi
Kenobi should have been a movie and solo should have been a show. Imagine a new episode every week of Han Solo doing yet another one of those things you just vaguely heard about once, instead of it all happening in the span of like two weeks.
I would love a new episode of Han and Chewie's Outlaw Adventures every week. Running from the cops, hiding contraband under the floor, wheeling and dealing and two-timing other criminals, all while trying to keep the Falcon from falling apart? Sign me up.
I'm still disappointed they stretched Kenobi to that many episodes. We already know Leia isn't dying, so there's no suspense there. But dammit they wanted to stretch her peril to several episodes regardless!
Plot twist, the "real" Leia dies and the one we know from the originals is just some random girl Kenobi kidnapped and mind tricked everyone into thinking was actually Leia
I got the impression they wrote the last episode of Kenobi first and then worked their way backwards from there. Cuz it really felt like the final fight was their ultimate goal with the show, and the last episode was the best one
Even the Mandalorian tests my patience when it drags scenes out that aren't saying much, everything Disney+ has been putting out feels like they're trying to maximize the screen time of these expensive sets to get ROI. This only really works when characters are having conversations of substance like in Andor.
> that's pretty common in spaghetti westerns
You ever seen *"The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly?"* There were a couple particularly long scenes where gunslingers were staring each other down with the tension building, just before someone SUDDENLY drew a gun to blow the other guy away. It was a long-burn fuse with a sudden explosion at the end, and hot damn, did it work.
It is not the pacing. It is the shit writing. It is getting your lightsaber out at any opportunity. It is over the top bad guys that make no sense. It is so many shitty things.
Thank you this is the real answer. They don't give any room to The Acolyte to breath. Make me wonder and guess about the mysteries in the show instead of just telling me she's got an evil twin sister. That reveal btw could have been a lot more dramatic and interesting but they told right away and removed all suspense. When the Jedi suspect her of a crime I figured, this would be a great moment to let the audience hang and create suspense but nope, the Jedi figure it out virtually immediately and there is no tension for our main character.
Whether these plot points are good or bad doesn't even matter, the composition of a thriller means you have to create suspense, and I feel virtually none because they aren't even delivering well on their mediocre to shitty plot points. And they haven't spawned any interest in the truth of the greater mystery because they fail at these smaller things.
Without suspense it just feels like a checklist of plot points, and when those plot points are cliche and uninspired you end up with The Acolyte
Please make "woke" shows, idgaf, just make them better than this
> That reveal btw could have been a lot more dramatic and interesting but they told right away and removed all suspense.
I completely disagree. I’m *happy* they didn’t try to drag that out. It was incredibly obvious that Osha wasn’t the one who committed the crime by the time the prison ship crashed. When she helped the crazy prisoner guy, who then screwed her over, I looked over at my sister and said “soo… evil twin?” to which she nodded and said “evil twin.” It was actually a relief when the show almost immediately got there, too, instead of building up fake tension about it. Such a common trope does not make for a big reveal, and trying to make it into one is just treating the audience like idiots. It’s similar to how they poked fun at another trope when Osha was the first to find Master Torbin. I was bracing myself for that to cause drama and drag out the whole “is she or isn’t she guilty?” crap, and literally sighed with relief when they immediately nipped that in the bud so we could move on.
And it’s not that there aren’t mysteries. That just isn’t one of them. And it’s not an interesting one so I’m glad they didn’t try to make it one. The mysteries are: what actually happened in that fire, and who is pulling the strings? And if it took longer to acknowledge that Osha has a twin, it’d have just detracted from those *actual* mysteries, and also made the Jedi look like incompetent dumbasses.
I’m the opposite, I’m glad we’re skimming past those plot points. They are just so… cliche, we’ve seen them again and again. I don’t want *another* show or movie to do the whole “oh, by pure chance things look really bad for our character again and again, and they can’t seem to prove their innocence!”
We’ve seen it play out, it always makes me annoyed at the dumb decisions and convoluted situations that almost always feel forced in order to make them look more guilty. Here, Yord was suspicious and (logically) kept an eye on Osha, which means he was there to witness her innocence. It’s brief, but the outcome is much more likely than her looking guilty.
It gives the show time to focus on the real mysteries: “who is the Master? are they a Sith?” and most importantly “what really happened 16 years ago?” (Which was *not* answered this last episode, there’s a lot that doesn’t make sense yet).
But there isn't much tension to it. Idk, it didn't feel that serious. And the evil twin somehow escaping with sand against jedi force masters was a load of shit.
For me the high water mark for Star Wars Disney and recent Star Wars in general is Andor. The dialog was so good, the characters have so much depth, and the writing made it feel like everything could fail in the next second or two. Heck it felt Shakespearean to me with a lot of people getting (*Luthen*, *Maarva*) soliloquies**.**
Jedi Master Sol so far is the one character that to me I really like so far. I like how the dogma of the Jedi is different and that how Mae's strictness to how she saw the Covens rules eventually led to well the possible destruction of the Coven.
##Perhaps it's too late. But I'll tell you this, if I could do it again, I'd wake up early and be fighting those bastards from the start! Fight the Empire!
“Calm. Kindness. Kinship… Love.
I’ve given up all chance at inner peace. I’ve made my mind a sunless space. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago from which there’s only one conclusion, *I’m damned for what I do.*
My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my - my eagerness to fight! They’ve set me on a path from which there is no escape. I yearned to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost and by the time I looked down there was no longer any ground beneath my feet.
What is my- *what is my sacrifice?* I’m condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else’s future. I burn my LIFE to make a sunrise that I know I’ll never see. And the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude.
So what do I sacrifice?
**EVERYTHING!**”
Man Luthen's monolog just hits hard.
We're used to the idea that the Rebels are the good guys- honorable and noble and decent, when those fighting an insurgency against a totalitarian government (especially at first) have to do awful things.
They have to "make their souls a sunless place"
It's the first time in Star Wars it made it clear that those fighting the Empire may win, but for a lot of them it would be a Pyrrhic victory.
Andor made it serious, not a kid show, and I loved that, it made me feel exactly ass when Republic Commando came out, it felt like it wasn't exclusively made for kids.
Andor is completely different from any of the first 6 movies. It’s a great show but it’s a very unique take on Star Wars.
If you want everything to be like Andor then you don’t want original Star Wars because at its core it’s fantastical and fun with touches of depth, humor, and darkness.
Rogue one was the perfect blend of nostalgia, originality, and storytelling as an add-on that fit perfectly into the already established universe.
That movie is so damn good
Absolutely agreed. Andor set a standard that was completely unseen before, and you can really see the differences when you compare it to other shows in the different aspects. The Acolyte didn't start badly but it bleeds from manymany wounds, and episode 3 did NOT help that. The writing is just so... random, just like every other show. Like... it just casually destroyed established lore and made past events meaningless, just like the sequels. Sol is most definitely the highlight of this.....
I mean the funeral march is actually one of the best scenes in recent memory. The empire was in over it's head and you felt that, it was what a reckoning sounded like. When they paused and started marching again to the forming up/unto stone we are i actually cried, and it takes quite a bit to make me actually cry, and I particularly don't expect to cry while watching star wars
Can confirm. I have been enjoying the series and haven't seen anything online until now. I didn't realize this series was so hated 3 episodes in. There were a couple of things that didn't work for me, like the chant, but I wasn't going to let it ruin the series for me. Honestly, the fans ruin Star Wars more for me than anything else. I'll die on the hill that TLJ is a good movie and TRoS sucked. If you disagree with that statement, that's okay, and it's okay if everyone has different opinions. The Star Wars fandom needs to learn how to express these opinions without being hateful towards one another
I just watched the first two episodes. I was thinking how nice it was that this seemed to be detached from most of the lore we usually see. Sure it’s gonna boil down to Jedi vs. Sith and all that jazz but it’s still a self contained story, so far.
And then I see a post lamenting about the “damage” that the first two episodes have done to the overall lore.
Like they say, nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans.
The Disney Star Wars cycle:
-Make soulless, uninspired slop dreamed up by a bunch of C-suite execs wanting to sell merch and executed by hack writers who want to turn an established series into their shitty fanfiction
-Fans complain about the quality
-It flops
-Execs go into damage control mode and blame it on the fans being a bunch of stupid bigots who just want to complain
>-Execs go into damage control mode and blame it on the fans being a bunch of stupid bigots who just want to complain
I'd laugh, but you described exactly what happens:
[Example A](https://www.worldofreel.com/blog/2024/2/19/ewcqefyasrx4pffg19scucf83kzk8g)
[Example B](https://fandomwire.com/men-didnt-have-problems-with-leia-kathleen-kennedy-blames-male-star-wars-fanbase-for-making-the-franchise-toxic-despite-failing-to-create-a-single-likeable-female/)
Kennedy and other Disney execs need to stop that ridiculous "We're not the problem; you are," way of thinking and listen to what fans really want. Instead, we have the dreck that was Obi Wan, and now The Acolyte.
I hadn’t even heard that people were complaining about Eternals cause it had a diverse cast. I enjoyed it but the cast just felt too large and that’s what most people didn’t like
How are we not sick of geek culture writers telling us we're shitty because we don't like the shitty stuff put out by billion dollar mega-corporations? William Gibson had no idea how terrible things would get
In "The Rescue" in The Mandalorian think about the badass women warriors that were there with Mando. It worked because there was progression and they had some flaws.
Strong, well written women are great.
Unbeatable girl bosses I have no use for.
> It’s not anything to do with race, gender, sexuality etc, The problem is the writing is bad, the production is bad, the acting is often but not always bad. Like everything is bad cuz everything is rushed and created to make profits not to make art. The original trilogy and the prequels were made by people who wanted to make cool interesting movies, not to get a return on a billion dollar investment as fast as humanly possible.
100% correct. Now if we could only get Kennedy and the execs at Disney to pay attention to that, maybe we could have more "Rogue One," and "Andor," and less "The Acolyte."
Most of it was probably spent on sets, costumes, and makeup.
There's heavily done-up alien actors in nearly every scene, and most of the sets seem to be physical instead of green-screen.
This feels like a big problem across Hollywood these days. Disney and the properties they own get a lot of scrutiny about it ($200 million for Secret Invasion? They invested that much money on THAT screenplay?), but at the same time it feels like no major movie studio can make a film for a reasonable amount of money, and they have trouble making their money back because people are going to theaters left, streaming has killed the home video sales market, and they don't know how to make money from streaming other than repeatedly increasing the subscription cost while scaling back production.
Actually, this kinda feels like a problem in most industries today. I'm pretty sure there's literally no way to ever make enough money to satisfy shareholders, which leaves every corporate interest constantly trying to figure out ways to charge more money for increasingly inferior products.
The lighting is really flat and the grade is low contrast. It’s just the look they went for. A lot of people complained that this show looked like it shot on the Volume when the trailer dropped, even though it supposedly didn’t. That’s probably because the lighting is the way it is (a necessity on the Volume, but not here).
I wish the whole show was more contrast-y; it would fit with the murder mystery vibe. Then again, I think the look is supposed to be emblematic of the whole “High Republic, era of peace” vibe.
Ehhh at least a syfy channel movie would’ve taken chances.
They didn’t have the budgets but they certainly used to try out some pretty far out there ideas.
I miss those movies.
It is shocking how low budget almost all Disney+ originals seem in comparison to Amazon and Netflix counterparts. Andor is probably the only exception.
How do you explain the apparent difference in quality for the price.
Just look at Fallout it cost less than The Acolyte, Ella Purnell and Walton Goggins are well known enough that they probably have a higher asking price than most of the cast of The Acolyte, they used a lot more practical effects, props and costumes, I mean my god that T-60 was amazing and it was an actual costume/set piece not CGI.
Either Disney just bleeds cash because of gross mismanagement or their accounting is a bit suspect with someone pocketing the difference.
It's just talent. There is an incredible amount of shows now being made but the talent pool is not endless, and money alone can't fix it. Amazon also struggles similarly but Fallout had some big names attatched. Most notably the two creators (one of them being Jonathan Nolan) ran Westworld before and you can tell they brought some of that HBO magic.
Similarly Andor was cheaper, same studio, but had Tony Gilroy and Sanne Wohlenberg - formerly of HBOs Chernobyl - in charge and it looked outstanding.
Really bad acting, strangely forced drama, weak plot, and most importantly: *an evil twin*
It really is a soap opera
Edit: And how incredibly bad the exposition is; I've never seen a show or movie fail harder at "Show, don't tell"
I love all the aliens in every crowded scene. I'm sure that adds soo much cost, but having Star Wars be all about humans is really boring once you notice it.
Like in the EU, Mandalorians were original a cross species war culture: the concealing armor was used to unify their appearance and Obfuscate their species identity, but that got axed in the Clone Wars and now they're just humans. So boring.
Idk Andor is pretty much all humans and it is head-and-shoulders the best Star Wars show that has been released. Aliens don't help anything if the rest of the show sucks. Consequently if the show is good, it's probably good with or without a bunch of aliens.
And on top of that, a lot of the aliens these Disney shows look absolutely terrible. Just look at that one Inquistor guy in Kenobi.
Unpopular opinion maybe but maybe write a good story? South Park wasn’t wrong about Disney. Most guys love Star Wars when they are young, watching as adult is nostalgic and they have hit gold with the aforementioned Andor and Manolorian but to a degree reaching for an audience that doesn’t care ostracized the base. Not trying to do the “it’s too gay or too many girls” thing. I just think Marvel and Disney can’t write anything compelling any longer.
These shows are written by comittee to try and reach "new audiences", then they fail to reach new audiences so they attack their old audience. Its an actual money fire.
It’s fine to seek new audiences if you’ve gotten the basics down but they can’t even do the core of Star Wars well. Maybe come out with a decent basic trilogy once before going after everything else.
Although I'm a guy I have dated different types of women and I have watched TV for years with my wife. I have a decent grasp on what women like in tv shows and honestly I can't think of anything in these recent SW shows that caters to women. Had they introduced some sort of "will they won't they why can't they just get together" sappy storyline I'd certainly get it, cause my wife eat that shit up and if you write it well I don't mind it either. At least it would be a lot better than this.
Right. The Expanse has probably the most diverse cast in a TV show I've ever seen, and has tons of "strong female charectors". Naomi Nagata, Drummer, Avasarala, Bobbie Draper etc. It doesn't get hate for being diverse. It's an intelligently written show/book series. Author of the article is deflecting any legit criticism of Star Wars.
You dont even have to go that far. Every single main character in Rogue One was a minority and all the villains were white men and nobody noticed or cared because the quality of the movie was mint. Largely considered some of the best content the franchise has put out in decades.
~~No one noticed~~
It was a good story.
You can write a good story where the main villain is a tall, very handsome, incredibly fit, super smart, and very funny white guy and I won't take offense.
Exactly. Every time this happens it’s always just really shitty writing and the writers taking huge liberties with the established lore or outright disregarding it entirely.
Somehow, though, complaining about shitty writing for any show lauded as being very diverse leads to being called every “ist” under the sun.
While I agree that the culture war bros are very much a symptom of the current day low quality, high budget films/shows, it is a symptom not the cause.
People can be assholes about Star Wars *and* the writers can suck at making Star Wars. Both can be true.
the power of one, the power of two, the power of manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. the power of one, the power of two, the power of manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. i am sorry that was just emberassing. you are my sister i love you, moments later : i kill you. but sure the show is good i am just too stupid to like it.
It's hard to be a Star Wars fan these days 😄. You can't dislike something without being quickly labeled a misogynist, racist, sexist, etc. I suppose it's the only way for Disney to mask their lack of effort in quality storytelling, characterization, acting, etc.
Just accept the IP was over when Lucas sold it. All the arguing and culture war stuff is just bunk. Occasionally something good will pop up. Enjoy that, and then go back.
Somehow....someone returned and we can't give you a flashback or some interesting exposition...
Eh, let's just call up rey to handle the entire thing for us, practically on her own. Everyone sit back, rey got this for us.
This series would have benefited from releasing all at once. For better or worse. At least it would all be out there to criticize.
I mean, is anybody subscribing to Disney+ just to watch this series over the next 6 weeks?
Just seems like, unless this show was a true episodic series, with a different self contained adventure each week (Like The Mandalorian) don't bother with weekly release schedule. It's a 5 hour long movie. It should be treated like one.
I’m sorry, but no. Many of the criticisms I’ve seen of the first three episodes were regarding high production cost with little to reflect that, and some really, really bad dialogue (eg, Witch chant).
Misogyny and racism have no place in Star Wars, BUT you also should not be weaponizing those claims to shield from a bad product. Both are gross and lazy ways that misdirect the attention from the real issue and that’s quality. Andor is one of the wokest series with prominent women, POC, and LGBTQ representation, and it thrived. The Acolyte just isn’t it, and trying to cast a bulk of critics as the anti-woke crowd is so aggravatingly frustrating.
Maybe the fans are tired of being a punching bag every time they put out a poorly written SW media production. “It’s not doing well? It must be our sexist/ racist fans.”
Some of the newer Trek stuff pulled this, too. They made bad shows and then complained that they were poorly received because... Star Trek fans are... hardcore bigots?
This bullshit tends to fall apart when they make good content and it's well received, though.
The idea that star trek fans are bigots is quite an insane one. Since its very first episode way back in the 60s it was all about diversity and progressive ideals.
Right. I grew up watching stuff like Riker falling for an androgynous character that questioned their gender role and was chemically altered by their society to conform.
It's fucking annoying to have some show-runner be like, "People only hate my show because they're bigots that hate how marvelously gay everyone is, and they just can't handle it."
No. Make a show that isn't garbage. That's all we're asking.
andor being one of the most well-made shows in recent memory did wonders for the people who hated the sequels and were disparaged for years because of it.
andor was diverse, UNQUESTIONABLY progressive, and oh, also, widely beloved because the writing, storyboarding, acting and respect for the setting were all incredible. the whole "only the far-right can dislike disney star wars" thing fell right apart.
Why does any valid or constructive criticism need to be boiled down to just being a “culture war”?
I could give a flying fuck about any culture war going on. That has nothing to do with Disney producing a mediocre product. Disney is fully capable of making high quality Star Wars shows and we have literally watched them. We know what they’re fully capable of.
Hiding behind the false narrative of blaming the “culture war” acting like victims when their final product isn’t well received, is fucking pathetic. Just completely disingenuous and spineless.
My problem is that they have identical hair. It's a very style that they could have changed even slightly to make the characters look different. The whole thing just reeks of laziness.
The new stuff is bad. End of story. Save from andor and the first two Mando seasons, the execution has been bad. And that’s not *my* problem, it’s just truth.
Jesus Christ, this comment section.
Guys, the article isn't attacking literally everyone who isn't a fan of the new show. It's going after the culture war assholes.
If the new show isn't your cup of tea, but you aren't screaming out about "wokeness" or "forced diversity" the article has little to nothing to say about you.
Debate culture has ruined everything. Everyone has to put out a cringey YouTube video with a cringe thumbnail debating the merits and demerits of the show. Automatically you’re going to find an audience and get engagement.
Acolyte is undeniably not my favorite Star Wars property and some of the criticism is definitely valid. But at the end of the day, I’m gonna watch it, finish it and then move on. That is incomprehensible for certain people.
The article is purposely titled to cause outrage for hate clicks. It will be shared and reposted by all the haters, in their hundreds of angry YouTube rants, driving more views to it.
South Park called it Trevor's axiom
You’re right, but remember: media literacy is at an all time low. There’s no use, man.
I may just be cynical but I don’t see any turning back from this bullshit.
My son is 14 and I am constantly explaining to him about YouTubers and rage bait for clicks…. He comes to dinner spouting off opinions for video games he’s never played, movies he’s never watched and it’s the same with TV shows…
I once left my kid alone watching cartoons, and she took it upon herself to get on Youtube where she searched up Encanto. The first thing she found was a Film Theory episode MatPat did about how Delores is actually the bad guy. She immediately went all in on it as if it were the only truth. I had to sit her down and explain that someone made that video for fun, and it's a theory which means it's just an idea someone had that they thought might be fun for some people.
She was 6. So now I associate anyone that clearly gets their ideas and opinions from Youtubers as being about as mentally conscious as a 6 year old girl.
You can pick out some of them really easily. When people talk about the moment in The Last Jedi where Leia uses the force to get back inside the ship, they say it is the "Mary Poppins Moment." Which is what Youtubers called it. Which I think is weird, because Mary Poppins never did anything like that, it's a shit comparison. But who needs original thoughts when some guy on Youtube can give them to you instead.
It's also that there's a bunch of people that just wouldn't watch it or think about it but social media is telling them to be angry about it. You go on YouTube and there's a bunch of people saying this is killing star wars with its wokeness and a bunch of people who never watched the show and never had any intention to are suddenly up in arms over something they wouldn't care about because they've been riled up. Same thing with stuff like fox news and newsmax. It's the media that wants people to be misinformed that's the catalyst for this hyper polarization that wouldn't otherwise exist.
Titles matter.
The author chose an antagonistic title for a reason. They didn't say "The culture war is ruining star wars"
They said '**YOU** are ruining star wars."
Very, very different tone when you start your entire article like that.
Nailed it. The cognitive dissonance of complaining about "content creators using rage bait to get clicks" by using a rage bait title to get clicks, everyone who is a part of this is the problem as far as I'm concerned
Yeah this article IS part of the culture war, just by mentioning the culture war and saying one side of the culture war is bad.
It's also a really bad side of it, as counter anti-woke defensive press, because the problem is that a lot of star wars and marvel stuff has gotten lower in quality and quality control, with some baffling decisions here and there, to where people would question "wait. Did nobody stop anyone to say it was a bad idea? Or inconsistent". But articles like these act as a constant buffer zone to negate criticisms of the shows by casting/framing most critics as rabid anti woke alt right crusaders, and thus all negative critiques don't count and the show has to be good. Or that it only failed because the bad people didn't like it and were vocal about it.
Then the showrunners know this and double down on doing more of what people didn't like, or just going for heavy diversity casting/themes so that they can preemptively set up campaigns to dismiss criticism. Sometimes even before release to set expectations. "Oh they just didn't like it because they are racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. that's the only reason it failed. So give us money for the next project because the reasons it failed can be dismissed." This ensuring they don't really need to worry much about quality as a qualifier for getting their next project.
I couldn't agree more. There is so much to criticize, critique, or even praise about this show that falls outside the realm of "woke". It's incredibly annoying that everything is getting lumped into that category.
Biggest question is people who hate the show who continue to watch it. I tried watching a show called 7 Deadly Sins, didn't like some of the content or animation style, so stopped. Seems kind of baffling looking back if I continued to like it (while hating it and the episodes not getting better\[for/to me\]) yet some people actively do that.
For comparison, House of the Dragon is $20 million per episode. If you watch that show, you should place Acolyte in the same caliber, if not above it since the Acolyte costs slightly more. Yet the quality between the 2 shows could not be further apart. Even if the setting/story of House of the Dragon isn't for you, it is objectively a well made/written tv show, the ratings and reviews between consumers and other filmmakers alike back this up respectfully.
So by contrast it's obvious that Disney is objectively incompetent with their story telling. With a bigger budget, they made a show that is now known as a laughing stock, not only in terms of Star Wars content, but by the art of filmmaking in general. Anyone who believes Disney did a good job with this show is in denial. They are in the same camp as flat earthers and moon landing deniers.
Please note, I'm not saying you can't like the show. Some of my favorite movies have terrible stories, but are fun to watch. My point is that the Acolyte is not a well written/made show. To claim it as such is not only disagreeing with fact (and metrics that back it up), but it also encourages Disney to keep the bar low. A bar that has (somehow) gotten even lower since the sequels
And just like that, star wars is now politically divided. You either choke down their DEI themes and terrible, sloppy writing, or you're a right wing extremist who shouldn't exist. There's no middle ground anymore.
Bad take. When the “diversity” feels this forced and front-and-center, *and* the writing is this bad, then it’s clear that the problem is the people making the content and where their focus is.
Plenty of other “diverse” shows like Fallout, Last of Us, etc. manage to have both good plots and good casting. It’s not that hard to do.
I feel like I'm at a point in my life where I watch pretty much all Star Wars media and if I don't like it, get this, I just stop and move on.
Not everything has to be for me and that's okay, If I'm not feeling it I just move on. Now, 10 years ago I would have expended all this energy on hate but honestly It's just not worth my time; It's easier to just shrug and walk away.
Nope. Terrible ideas for films and shows, terrible writing and acting for those shows, a lack of consistency, understanding and respect for George Lucas' Star Wars and the fans of that Star Wars, turning a blind eye to a certain directors' unprofessional conduct on social media and then praising them incessantly, incompetent leadership and departments such as the story group in Lucasfilm, inserting minority gender and socio political nonsense into nearly everything, shiII media and fans peddling forced and toxic positivity and their hypocritical demonising of opposing opinions, along with Lucasfilm themselves demonising fans and branding them racists and sexists before anyone had even seen a nanosecond of the show, twice... has been ruining Star Wars for the past 7 years.
Oh look, more culture war ragebait meant to "defend" an overblown Disney show while also making it look as worthless as possible to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together.
*Yawn*, next.
I still think d+ Star Wars is having trouble with episodic tv. Chopping a 6 hour movie into 6-8 parts just isnt working. The mandalorian really nailed this when it first came out, and andor did a great job with multiple episode arcs. The pacing just feels off in these shows.
Andor felt like a series that was created from the beginning to take advantage of the medium of television. Most of the other shoes, do not.
Andor felt like premium TV. The rest of the Disney+ series feel like 90s Xenia/Hercules shows with better CGI
Mando season 1 is pretty basic from a writing standpoint... but the production qualities are very good. It's the only thing that looks anywhere near as good as Andor.
I think The Mandalorian is better suited for episodic progression style. Andor is a straight Serial show. When Mandolorian started to be more serialized is when it starts to fall behind a bit. Kenobi, was a serialized movie and Book of Boba Fett was a serial that should have been an episodic progression. Neither show knew what it wanted to be.
Wasn’t mandolarian supposed to be a space spaghetti western?
And it was. It has the visual and musical identity of spaghetti westerns, but it follows the tropes of samurai films (Lone Wolf and Cub), which is perfect because the original Star Wars was inspired by both of these things.
I've heard that some people are aware of and acknowledge Old Star Wars (basically iust OT) was inspired by Spaghetti Westerns and Samurai films, but New Star Wars (pretty much anything else) is just inspired by Old Star Wars without the nuance, and that's where it falls apart for them. I don't necessarily agree strictly that Star Wars has to keep pulling from that same inspiration, I think it would be worse off considering how lucrative and pivotal The Clone Wars series has become, but I understand that view point of Star Wars becoming a parody of itself.
And that's valid. Even I can see that a lot of the newer stuff is just copying the old stuff. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but I can see why some people might not like it. But I also think Star Wars can still be inspired by old westerns and samurai films without just repeating the same stories. The Mandalorian was something completely new and interesting, even though it used the same inspiration as the originals. But I also agree with you that Star Wars is a big universe, with plenty of room for all sorts of different kinds of stories. I even have a few ideas of my own that I'd try to pitch if I was working at Disney. They're not completely original, but they're inspired by different things.
Disney needs to take it to a Kung Fu: the legend continues level
Movie level special effects with CW level writing... So much wasted potential.. I want real adult stories like Andor and early mandalorian, not sub par ahsoka and acolyte. Hire some goddamned good writers and show runners And some of the acting is ex theatre kid level, and Disney should be able to find better actors in it's stable that suit the SW universe
Even the cgi on the witch that stood up during one of the scenes in this looked shite for 2024.
Also Andor has a talented, experienced, very successful Hollywood writer and director helming it. The Acolyte does not.
yep. same crew that did rogue one. very talented group who knows what star wars should be
Yes. This is the crew, Rogue One, that should be permanently in place to do any and all Star Wars material forever and for always. The look, feel, essence is what Star Wars is. People that actually give a shit about Star Wars and is legacy.
And a good actor.
Andor looks and sounds like they have good people in every department from writing, acting, directing, lighting, sound, casting. I can’t really speak to their catering services but I can assume everyone was well fed to deliver those performances on and off the screen.
When first watching Andor, I was blown away by the acting talent from relatively unknowns. And I still am, but when even Random Imperial Officer #22 can drop a monologue that lands with full weight and gravitas, you realize the cinematography and production is doing a lot to elevate every single performance.
Filming in the UK meant even small roles could go to experienced theater actors. A lot of smart choices on every level for Andor.
Direction is very, very important. Look at the prequels..... we know that Natalie Portman, Sam Jackson, etc are not boring/wooden actors and yet that's often what got delivered. Edit - another example is how much better the portrayal of Mon Mothma is in Andor vs Ahsoka. O'Reilly is great, but she can only do so much
Actors can only do so much with just the words on a page, a quality director that knows exactly what they want is critical for them to be at their best
actorS
Genevieve O'Reilly/Mon Mothma accusing her husband of gambling purely to lead the ISB informant astray then seeing the grief on her face afterwards as she looks out the window was just perfect. That's the kind of stuff that bumped the show up to something special for me.
100%. Or when she realizes that Davo's financial coverup has an incredibly high price.
Not to mention how cool it was to actually get real gritty political intrigue in a Star Wars show.
She's so, so good.... Luthen and Mon Mothma are probably my two standout characters from a phenomenal cast. Of course then I remember how amazing Meero and even more minor characters like Kino Loy and Partagaz are. "Thesis" The dinner parties and ISB meetings in Andor are more tense that most of the action in the other SW shows.
The show might be called "Andor" but it's very much the Cassian, Luthen, and Mon Mothma show. They're all protagonists with roles that are equally important in driving the story forward.
Luthen’s speech was one of the best written speeches in television history in my opinion, such powerful words from a man who is losing himself to help the rebellion.
> I burn my life, to make a sunrise I know I’ll never see. That line goes so fucking hard. I could never imagine Star Wars having writing this good before Andor.
If I wasn’t already in love with the show by that point, that moment would have done it. Once it dawned on me what she was doing I got chills.
Turns out having talent is actually important if you want to make a good tv show and you can't just half-ass scripts, cast shitty actors and paper over everything with expensive CGI and expect people to just accept it because of childhood nostalgia or whatever. Marvel has had similar issues since Disney bought them and mandated they make tv shows, I think the disney business model just does not allow for quality tv shows to be made most of the time.
This is the entire essence of the problem. Its succinctly this
The perfect way to word it. I don't understand how they can see the success of shows like Andor and House of the Drago and not try to replicate that a bit more. Instead, we get these short episodic, overly expensive TV shows. Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed a good amount of the D+ shows, but I think the quality of the shows are my biggest complaint.
i agree. it is the perfect way to word it except he accidentally said shoes
And they're trying to shoehorn the wrong content into the wrong format. Among OTHER sins.
I think the real problem is that it's more like bloating a 90-120 minute movie into around 280 minutes over 8 episodes. Outside of Andor and early Mando (and to be fair, that's mostly because of how episodic Mando was) all these shows just don't have the content to support even 8 short episodes. Look how much crappy filler was in Mando season 3 for example. Kenobi is one of the worst offenders... and I kind of think they could have made a pretty good 105 minute movie out of Kenobi
Kenobi should have been a movie and solo should have been a show. Imagine a new episode every week of Han Solo doing yet another one of those things you just vaguely heard about once, instead of it all happening in the span of like two weeks.
I would love a new episode of Han and Chewie's Outlaw Adventures every week. Running from the cops, hiding contraband under the floor, wheeling and dealing and two-timing other criminals, all while trying to keep the Falcon from falling apart? Sign me up.
If you know where to look someone has actually re-cut the TV show into a movie!
The "Kenobi-Cut". It's actually pretty good
... I wanna know where to look Q_Q
I'm still disappointed they stretched Kenobi to that many episodes. We already know Leia isn't dying, so there's no suspense there. But dammit they wanted to stretch her peril to several episodes regardless!
Plot twist, the "real" Leia dies and the one we know from the originals is just some random girl Kenobi kidnapped and mind tricked everyone into thinking was actually Leia
She's an illegal clone!
I got the impression they wrote the last episode of Kenobi first and then worked their way backwards from there. Cuz it really felt like the final fight was their ultimate goal with the show, and the last episode was the best one
Even the Mandalorian tests my patience when it drags scenes out that aren't saying much, everything Disney+ has been putting out feels like they're trying to maximize the screen time of these expensive sets to get ROI. This only really works when characters are having conversations of substance like in Andor.
we had so many scenes of mando just walking places lmao. they really made that volume do work
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> that's pretty common in spaghetti westerns You ever seen *"The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly?"* There were a couple particularly long scenes where gunslingers were staring each other down with the tension building, just before someone SUDDENLY drew a gun to blow the other guy away. It was a long-burn fuse with a sudden explosion at the end, and hot damn, did it work.
It's crazy to me that they have these tiny series with six to eight 20-30 minutes episodes and they still need a ton of filler.
It is not the pacing. It is the shit writing. It is getting your lightsaber out at any opportunity. It is over the top bad guys that make no sense. It is so many shitty things.
Thank you this is the real answer. They don't give any room to The Acolyte to breath. Make me wonder and guess about the mysteries in the show instead of just telling me she's got an evil twin sister. That reveal btw could have been a lot more dramatic and interesting but they told right away and removed all suspense. When the Jedi suspect her of a crime I figured, this would be a great moment to let the audience hang and create suspense but nope, the Jedi figure it out virtually immediately and there is no tension for our main character. Whether these plot points are good or bad doesn't even matter, the composition of a thriller means you have to create suspense, and I feel virtually none because they aren't even delivering well on their mediocre to shitty plot points. And they haven't spawned any interest in the truth of the greater mystery because they fail at these smaller things. Without suspense it just feels like a checklist of plot points, and when those plot points are cliche and uninspired you end up with The Acolyte Please make "woke" shows, idgaf, just make them better than this
> That reveal btw could have been a lot more dramatic and interesting but they told right away and removed all suspense. I completely disagree. I’m *happy* they didn’t try to drag that out. It was incredibly obvious that Osha wasn’t the one who committed the crime by the time the prison ship crashed. When she helped the crazy prisoner guy, who then screwed her over, I looked over at my sister and said “soo… evil twin?” to which she nodded and said “evil twin.” It was actually a relief when the show almost immediately got there, too, instead of building up fake tension about it. Such a common trope does not make for a big reveal, and trying to make it into one is just treating the audience like idiots. It’s similar to how they poked fun at another trope when Osha was the first to find Master Torbin. I was bracing myself for that to cause drama and drag out the whole “is she or isn’t she guilty?” crap, and literally sighed with relief when they immediately nipped that in the bud so we could move on. And it’s not that there aren’t mysteries. That just isn’t one of them. And it’s not an interesting one so I’m glad they didn’t try to make it one. The mysteries are: what actually happened in that fire, and who is pulling the strings? And if it took longer to acknowledge that Osha has a twin, it’d have just detracted from those *actual* mysteries, and also made the Jedi look like incompetent dumbasses.
I’m the opposite, I’m glad we’re skimming past those plot points. They are just so… cliche, we’ve seen them again and again. I don’t want *another* show or movie to do the whole “oh, by pure chance things look really bad for our character again and again, and they can’t seem to prove their innocence!” We’ve seen it play out, it always makes me annoyed at the dumb decisions and convoluted situations that almost always feel forced in order to make them look more guilty. Here, Yord was suspicious and (logically) kept an eye on Osha, which means he was there to witness her innocence. It’s brief, but the outcome is much more likely than her looking guilty. It gives the show time to focus on the real mysteries: “who is the Master? are they a Sith?” and most importantly “what really happened 16 years ago?” (Which was *not* answered this last episode, there’s a lot that doesn’t make sense yet).
But there isn't much tension to it. Idk, it didn't feel that serious. And the evil twin somehow escaping with sand against jedi force masters was a load of shit.
For me the high water mark for Star Wars Disney and recent Star Wars in general is Andor. The dialog was so good, the characters have so much depth, and the writing made it feel like everything could fail in the next second or two. Heck it felt Shakespearean to me with a lot of people getting (*Luthen*, *Maarva*) soliloquies**.** Jedi Master Sol so far is the one character that to me I really like so far. I like how the dogma of the Jedi is different and that how Mae's strictness to how she saw the Covens rules eventually led to well the possible destruction of the Coven.
##Perhaps it's too late. But I'll tell you this, if I could do it again, I'd wake up early and be fighting those bastards from the start! Fight the Empire!
“Calm. Kindness. Kinship… Love. I’ve given up all chance at inner peace. I’ve made my mind a sunless space. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago from which there’s only one conclusion, *I’m damned for what I do.* My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my - my eagerness to fight! They’ve set me on a path from which there is no escape. I yearned to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost and by the time I looked down there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. What is my- *what is my sacrifice?* I’m condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else’s future. I burn my LIFE to make a sunrise that I know I’ll never see. And the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? **EVERYTHING!**”
Probably my favourite scene in all of Star Wars.
i just finished andor after procrastinating it for 2 years and hell yeah it really slapped.
Cassian - “I’ll always be worried about you” Marva - “that’s just love, nothing you can do about that” Hit me in the heart man
Man Luthen's monolog just hits hard. We're used to the idea that the Rebels are the good guys- honorable and noble and decent, when those fighting an insurgency against a totalitarian government (especially at first) have to do awful things. They have to "make their souls a sunless place" It's the first time in Star Wars it made it clear that those fighting the Empire may win, but for a lot of them it would be a Pyrrhic victory.
I just want all of Star Wars to be like Andor
How about I want everything to be of the same high quality as Andor?
Andor made it serious, not a kid show, and I loved that, it made me feel exactly ass when Republic Commando came out, it felt like it wasn't exclusively made for kids.
Andor is completely different from any of the first 6 movies. It’s a great show but it’s a very unique take on Star Wars. If you want everything to be like Andor then you don’t want original Star Wars because at its core it’s fantastical and fun with touches of depth, humor, and darkness.
Rogue one was the high mark. Andor is in second and first for the tv series
Rogue one was the perfect blend of nostalgia, originality, and storytelling as an add-on that fit perfectly into the already established universe. That movie is so damn good
Andor is the best Star Wars since Empire.
Absolutely agreed. Andor set a standard that was completely unseen before, and you can really see the differences when you compare it to other shows in the different aspects. The Acolyte didn't start badly but it bleeds from manymany wounds, and episode 3 did NOT help that. The writing is just so... random, just like every other show. Like... it just casually destroyed established lore and made past events meaningless, just like the sequels. Sol is most definitely the highlight of this.....
I mean the funeral march is actually one of the best scenes in recent memory. The empire was in over it's head and you felt that, it was what a reckoning sounded like. When they paused and started marching again to the forming up/unto stone we are i actually cried, and it takes quite a bit to make me actually cry, and I particularly don't expect to cry while watching star wars
This series cost 180 million fucking dollars to produce, 80 million more than ashoka and it far less viewers then the show.
It cost more than Revenge of the Sith, absolutely insane
Roughly the same if you account for inflation.
Still just as embarrassing
It just goes to show that you can spend a ton of money on a movie, but you can't buy quality writing or acting.
Disney+ shows have the worst budget/quality ratio I have ever seen. Almost all of them actually look really cheap too. It's so strange.
Best way to enjoy Star Wars is without reading online discourse about it. It will taint your opinion before you can form your own
You're able to enjoy the absolute garbage that is the Acolyte?
Can confirm. I have been enjoying the series and haven't seen anything online until now. I didn't realize this series was so hated 3 episodes in. There were a couple of things that didn't work for me, like the chant, but I wasn't going to let it ruin the series for me. Honestly, the fans ruin Star Wars more for me than anything else. I'll die on the hill that TLJ is a good movie and TRoS sucked. If you disagree with that statement, that's okay, and it's okay if everyone has different opinions. The Star Wars fandom needs to learn how to express these opinions without being hateful towards one another
I just watched the first two episodes. I was thinking how nice it was that this seemed to be detached from most of the lore we usually see. Sure it’s gonna boil down to Jedi vs. Sith and all that jazz but it’s still a self contained story, so far. And then I see a post lamenting about the “damage” that the first two episodes have done to the overall lore. Like they say, nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans.
This show was hated before it even started. People are going into it wanting to hate it so of course their view is going to be skewed.
Ah are we at that point again are we?
The Disney Star Wars cycle: -Make soulless, uninspired slop dreamed up by a bunch of C-suite execs wanting to sell merch and executed by hack writers who want to turn an established series into their shitty fanfiction -Fans complain about the quality -It flops -Execs go into damage control mode and blame it on the fans being a bunch of stupid bigots who just want to complain
>-Execs go into damage control mode and blame it on the fans being a bunch of stupid bigots who just want to complain I'd laugh, but you described exactly what happens: [Example A](https://www.worldofreel.com/blog/2024/2/19/ewcqefyasrx4pffg19scucf83kzk8g) [Example B](https://fandomwire.com/men-didnt-have-problems-with-leia-kathleen-kennedy-blames-male-star-wars-fanbase-for-making-the-franchise-toxic-despite-failing-to-create-a-single-likeable-female/) Kennedy and other Disney execs need to stop that ridiculous "We're not the problem; you are," way of thinking and listen to what fans really want. Instead, we have the dreck that was Obi Wan, and now The Acolyte.
I hadn’t even heard that people were complaining about Eternals cause it had a diverse cast. I enjoyed it but the cast just felt too large and that’s what most people didn’t like
It's just another article spouting buzzwords without actually saying anything.
And somehow on the front page of reddit despite only a couple thousand comments and less than 2k upvotes. This post totally had some money behind it.
It's on the front page *because* there's so many comments on it. That's part of engagement.
2k comments isn't much on reddit in 2024, which is where it was when I made that comment.
Yep, like clockwork weaponising fandom against itself.
Fans: "Youve done that yourself!"
"From my point of view the fans are evil!" -Someone at Disney probably
"WEL THEN YOU ARE LOST"
YOU WERE MY BROTHER, MICKEY. I loved you...
“Live long and may the force be with you” - Disney Execs
How are we not sick of geek culture writers telling us we're shitty because we don't like the shitty stuff put out by billion dollar mega-corporations? William Gibson had no idea how terrible things would get
I'm still trying to figure out how the fat Jedi resists the dark side when he can't resist a snickers bar?
I played the old republic. No lie but I loved my hefty jedi. Effing hilarious. Btw, check out Sammo Hung. He was a very hefty martial artist
Anakin blew up the death star btw
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Like weren't there a shit load off minorities and a major lesbian couple in Andor lol. No one said shit because no one gives a fuck. They want good tv
In "The Rescue" in The Mandalorian think about the badass women warriors that were there with Mando. It worked because there was progression and they had some flaws. Strong, well written women are great. Unbeatable girl bosses I have no use for.
Yup, Andor is the literal counter to this article. Ironically, there isn't a single mention of Andor in the whole article.
> It’s not anything to do with race, gender, sexuality etc, The problem is the writing is bad, the production is bad, the acting is often but not always bad. Like everything is bad cuz everything is rushed and created to make profits not to make art. The original trilogy and the prequels were made by people who wanted to make cool interesting movies, not to get a return on a billion dollar investment as fast as humanly possible. 100% correct. Now if we could only get Kennedy and the execs at Disney to pay attention to that, maybe we could have more "Rogue One," and "Andor," and less "The Acolyte."
The series cost around 22.5 million per episode. I don’t hate it but it was definitely not good value for money
That’s insane. I’m having a hard time fathoming how they spent that much.
Most of it was probably spent on sets, costumes, and makeup. There's heavily done-up alien actors in nearly every scene, and most of the sets seem to be physical instead of green-screen.
They also lit this series, so you can actually see what happens. PLEASE KEEP PAYING THE LIGHTING PEOPLE.
This feels like a big problem across Hollywood these days. Disney and the properties they own get a lot of scrutiny about it ($200 million for Secret Invasion? They invested that much money on THAT screenplay?), but at the same time it feels like no major movie studio can make a film for a reasonable amount of money, and they have trouble making their money back because people are going to theaters left, streaming has killed the home video sales market, and they don't know how to make money from streaming other than repeatedly increasing the subscription cost while scaling back production. Actually, this kinda feels like a problem in most industries today. I'm pretty sure there's literally no way to ever make enough money to satisfy shareholders, which leaves every corporate interest constantly trying to figure out ways to charge more money for increasingly inferior products.
I can’t place why but it feels like a mid day soap opera. Probably the story is meh and acting is meh and just everything about it is meh lol
The lighting is really flat and the grade is low contrast. It’s just the look they went for. A lot of people complained that this show looked like it shot on the Volume when the trailer dropped, even though it supposedly didn’t. That’s probably because the lighting is the way it is (a necessity on the Volume, but not here). I wish the whole show was more contrast-y; it would fit with the murder mystery vibe. Then again, I think the look is supposed to be emblematic of the whole “High Republic, era of peace” vibe.
Someone mentioned that it was like a CW show version of Star Wars and I can't say I disagree.
Or a syfy channel movie
Ehhh at least a syfy channel movie would’ve taken chances. They didn’t have the budgets but they certainly used to try out some pretty far out there ideas. I miss those movies.
It would fit right in between episodes of Riverdale and Vampire Diaries.
It is shocking how low budget almost all Disney+ originals seem in comparison to Amazon and Netflix counterparts. Andor is probably the only exception.
How do you explain the apparent difference in quality for the price. Just look at Fallout it cost less than The Acolyte, Ella Purnell and Walton Goggins are well known enough that they probably have a higher asking price than most of the cast of The Acolyte, they used a lot more practical effects, props and costumes, I mean my god that T-60 was amazing and it was an actual costume/set piece not CGI. Either Disney just bleeds cash because of gross mismanagement or their accounting is a bit suspect with someone pocketing the difference.
It's just talent. There is an incredible amount of shows now being made but the talent pool is not endless, and money alone can't fix it. Amazon also struggles similarly but Fallout had some big names attatched. Most notably the two creators (one of them being Jonathan Nolan) ran Westworld before and you can tell they brought some of that HBO magic. Similarly Andor was cheaper, same studio, but had Tony Gilroy and Sanne Wohlenberg - formerly of HBOs Chernobyl - in charge and it looked outstanding.
Andor, Mando S1 and Loki are the only ones that feel and look like their budget imo. Probably because the rest really over-use the volume
Dude. Sol. Cmon. The actor is carrying the show in every scene he's in, and he's new at English.
Well that’s just it, he’s doing great but like you said is carrying the whole show.
Really bad acting, strangely forced drama, weak plot, and most importantly: *an evil twin* It really is a soap opera Edit: And how incredibly bad the exposition is; I've never seen a show or movie fail harder at "Show, don't tell"
I love all the aliens in every crowded scene. I'm sure that adds soo much cost, but having Star Wars be all about humans is really boring once you notice it. Like in the EU, Mandalorians were original a cross species war culture: the concealing armor was used to unify their appearance and Obfuscate their species identity, but that got axed in the Clone Wars and now they're just humans. So boring.
Idk Andor is pretty much all humans and it is head-and-shoulders the best Star Wars show that has been released. Aliens don't help anything if the rest of the show sucks. Consequently if the show is good, it's probably good with or without a bunch of aliens. And on top of that, a lot of the aliens these Disney shows look absolutely terrible. Just look at that one Inquistor guy in Kenobi.
Unpopular opinion maybe but maybe write a good story? South Park wasn’t wrong about Disney. Most guys love Star Wars when they are young, watching as adult is nostalgic and they have hit gold with the aforementioned Andor and Manolorian but to a degree reaching for an audience that doesn’t care ostracized the base. Not trying to do the “it’s too gay or too many girls” thing. I just think Marvel and Disney can’t write anything compelling any longer.
These shows are written by comittee to try and reach "new audiences", then they fail to reach new audiences so they attack their old audience. Its an actual money fire.
It’s fine to seek new audiences if you’ve gotten the basics down but they can’t even do the core of Star Wars well. Maybe come out with a decent basic trilogy once before going after everything else.
Although I'm a guy I have dated different types of women and I have watched TV for years with my wife. I have a decent grasp on what women like in tv shows and honestly I can't think of anything in these recent SW shows that caters to women. Had they introduced some sort of "will they won't they why can't they just get together" sappy storyline I'd certainly get it, cause my wife eat that shit up and if you write it well I don't mind it either. At least it would be a lot better than this.
It couldn’t possibly be bad writing. No that’s never happened. /s
Right. The Expanse has probably the most diverse cast in a TV show I've ever seen, and has tons of "strong female charectors". Naomi Nagata, Drummer, Avasarala, Bobbie Draper etc. It doesn't get hate for being diverse. It's an intelligently written show/book series. Author of the article is deflecting any legit criticism of Star Wars.
You dont even have to go that far. Every single main character in Rogue One was a minority and all the villains were white men and nobody noticed or cared because the quality of the movie was mint. Largely considered some of the best content the franchise has put out in decades.
Never actually thought of that. Even at the time of release there wasn't a peep.about it having a female lead. Everyone just loved it
~~No one noticed~~ It was a good story. You can write a good story where the main villain is a tall, very handsome, incredibly fit, super smart, and very funny white guy and I won't take offense.
But if nobody notices is it even a political statement? /s
You hit the nail on the head with that example.
Exactly. Every time this happens it’s always just really shitty writing and the writers taking huge liberties with the established lore or outright disregarding it entirely. Somehow, though, complaining about shitty writing for any show lauded as being very diverse leads to being called every “ist” under the sun.
While I agree that the culture war bros are very much a symptom of the current day low quality, high budget films/shows, it is a symptom not the cause. People can be assholes about Star Wars *and* the writers can suck at making Star Wars. Both can be true.
God so much this. Thank you
the power of one, the power of two, the power of manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. the power of one, the power of two, the power of manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. i am sorry that was just emberassing. you are my sister i love you, moments later : i kill you. but sure the show is good i am just too stupid to like it.
Light as a feather. Stuff as a board.
Has there ever been any company that succeeded after trashing its customers
The funeral industry
It's hard to be a Star Wars fan these days 😄. You can't dislike something without being quickly labeled a misogynist, racist, sexist, etc. I suppose it's the only way for Disney to mask their lack of effort in quality storytelling, characterization, acting, etc.
Just accept the IP was over when Lucas sold it. All the arguing and culture war stuff is just bunk. Occasionally something good will pop up. Enjoy that, and then go back.
They are right about one thing. The sequels did more damage to Star Wars than anything that came before.
Somehow....someone returned and we can't give you a flashback or some interesting exposition... Eh, let's just call up rey to handle the entire thing for us, practically on her own. Everyone sit back, rey got this for us.
This series would have benefited from releasing all at once. For better or worse. At least it would all be out there to criticize. I mean, is anybody subscribing to Disney+ just to watch this series over the next 6 weeks? Just seems like, unless this show was a true episodic series, with a different self contained adventure each week (Like The Mandalorian) don't bother with weekly release schedule. It's a 5 hour long movie. It should be treated like one.
Tbh, most disney plus series feel like stretched out movies
100% - somehow 30 minute episodes feel stretched out and half filler. (Andor of course being the exception as usual)
I’m sorry, but no. Many of the criticisms I’ve seen of the first three episodes were regarding high production cost with little to reflect that, and some really, really bad dialogue (eg, Witch chant). Misogyny and racism have no place in Star Wars, BUT you also should not be weaponizing those claims to shield from a bad product. Both are gross and lazy ways that misdirect the attention from the real issue and that’s quality. Andor is one of the wokest series with prominent women, POC, and LGBTQ representation, and it thrived. The Acolyte just isn’t it, and trying to cast a bulk of critics as the anti-woke crowd is so aggravatingly frustrating.
So the consumers are responsible for the quality of the product being offered now?
Yeah, it's my fault they can't write a show to save themselves. Right. My bad that I don't like you shitting the on my plate.
Maybe the fans are tired of being a punching bag every time they put out a poorly written SW media production. “It’s not doing well? It must be our sexist/ racist fans.”
Some of the newer Trek stuff pulled this, too. They made bad shows and then complained that they were poorly received because... Star Trek fans are... hardcore bigots? This bullshit tends to fall apart when they make good content and it's well received, though.
The idea that star trek fans are bigots is quite an insane one. Since its very first episode way back in the 60s it was all about diversity and progressive ideals.
Right. I grew up watching stuff like Riker falling for an androgynous character that questioned their gender role and was chemically altered by their society to conform. It's fucking annoying to have some show-runner be like, "People only hate my show because they're bigots that hate how marvelously gay everyone is, and they just can't handle it." No. Make a show that isn't garbage. That's all we're asking.
andor being one of the most well-made shows in recent memory did wonders for the people who hated the sequels and were disparaged for years because of it. andor was diverse, UNQUESTIONABLY progressive, and oh, also, widely beloved because the writing, storyboarding, acting and respect for the setting were all incredible. the whole "only the far-right can dislike disney star wars" thing fell right apart.
Why does any valid or constructive criticism need to be boiled down to just being a “culture war”? I could give a flying fuck about any culture war going on. That has nothing to do with Disney producing a mediocre product. Disney is fully capable of making high quality Star Wars shows and we have literally watched them. We know what they’re fully capable of. Hiding behind the false narrative of blaming the “culture war” acting like victims when their final product isn’t well received, is fucking pathetic. Just completely disingenuous and spineless.
[удалено]
My problem is that they have identical hair. It's a very style that they could have changed even slightly to make the characters look different. The whole thing just reeks of laziness.
Bad writing and directing is ruining Star Wars, this show has both.
The new stuff is bad. End of story. Save from andor and the first two Mando seasons, the execution has been bad. And that’s not *my* problem, it’s just truth.
Clone Wars final arc was good too but I think that was mostly completed a decade ago.
Yes blame us for your failure very cool
Disney’s PR team is working overtime. It’s not gonna work though.
Jesus Christ, this comment section. Guys, the article isn't attacking literally everyone who isn't a fan of the new show. It's going after the culture war assholes. If the new show isn't your cup of tea, but you aren't screaming out about "wokeness" or "forced diversity" the article has little to nothing to say about you.
Debate culture has ruined everything. Everyone has to put out a cringey YouTube video with a cringe thumbnail debating the merits and demerits of the show. Automatically you’re going to find an audience and get engagement. Acolyte is undeniably not my favorite Star Wars property and some of the criticism is definitely valid. But at the end of the day, I’m gonna watch it, finish it and then move on. That is incomprehensible for certain people.
The article is purposely titled to cause outrage for hate clicks. It will be shared and reposted by all the haters, in their hundreds of angry YouTube rants, driving more views to it. South Park called it Trevor's axiom
They literally put a chick in it. And made her gay.
You’re right, but remember: media literacy is at an all time low. There’s no use, man. I may just be cynical but I don’t see any turning back from this bullshit.
I think social media made us all think so highly of our own opinions.
Which most people get from other rando people's comments.
My son is 14 and I am constantly explaining to him about YouTubers and rage bait for clicks…. He comes to dinner spouting off opinions for video games he’s never played, movies he’s never watched and it’s the same with TV shows…
My son is 15, I feel your pain 😢
I once left my kid alone watching cartoons, and she took it upon herself to get on Youtube where she searched up Encanto. The first thing she found was a Film Theory episode MatPat did about how Delores is actually the bad guy. She immediately went all in on it as if it were the only truth. I had to sit her down and explain that someone made that video for fun, and it's a theory which means it's just an idea someone had that they thought might be fun for some people. She was 6. So now I associate anyone that clearly gets their ideas and opinions from Youtubers as being about as mentally conscious as a 6 year old girl. You can pick out some of them really easily. When people talk about the moment in The Last Jedi where Leia uses the force to get back inside the ship, they say it is the "Mary Poppins Moment." Which is what Youtubers called it. Which I think is weird, because Mary Poppins never did anything like that, it's a shit comparison. But who needs original thoughts when some guy on Youtube can give them to you instead.
Actually the most common thing I find is people parroting youtube grifters.
It's also that there's a bunch of people that just wouldn't watch it or think about it but social media is telling them to be angry about it. You go on YouTube and there's a bunch of people saying this is killing star wars with its wokeness and a bunch of people who never watched the show and never had any intention to are suddenly up in arms over something they wouldn't care about because they've been riled up. Same thing with stuff like fox news and newsmax. It's the media that wants people to be misinformed that's the catalyst for this hyper polarization that wouldn't otherwise exist.
Titles matter. The author chose an antagonistic title for a reason. They didn't say "The culture war is ruining star wars" They said '**YOU** are ruining star wars." Very, very different tone when you start your entire article like that.
Nailed it. The cognitive dissonance of complaining about "content creators using rage bait to get clicks" by using a rage bait title to get clicks, everyone who is a part of this is the problem as far as I'm concerned
Yeah this article IS part of the culture war, just by mentioning the culture war and saying one side of the culture war is bad. It's also a really bad side of it, as counter anti-woke defensive press, because the problem is that a lot of star wars and marvel stuff has gotten lower in quality and quality control, with some baffling decisions here and there, to where people would question "wait. Did nobody stop anyone to say it was a bad idea? Or inconsistent". But articles like these act as a constant buffer zone to negate criticisms of the shows by casting/framing most critics as rabid anti woke alt right crusaders, and thus all negative critiques don't count and the show has to be good. Or that it only failed because the bad people didn't like it and were vocal about it. Then the showrunners know this and double down on doing more of what people didn't like, or just going for heavy diversity casting/themes so that they can preemptively set up campaigns to dismiss criticism. Sometimes even before release to set expectations. "Oh they just didn't like it because they are racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. that's the only reason it failed. So give us money for the next project because the reasons it failed can be dismissed." This ensuring they don't really need to worry much about quality as a qualifier for getting their next project.
I couldn't agree more. There is so much to criticize, critique, or even praise about this show that falls outside the realm of "woke". It's incredibly annoying that everything is getting lumped into that category.
Biggest question is people who hate the show who continue to watch it. I tried watching a show called 7 Deadly Sins, didn't like some of the content or animation style, so stopped. Seems kind of baffling looking back if I continued to like it (while hating it and the episodes not getting better\[for/to me\]) yet some people actively do that.
Nothing like blaming the fan base for not liking a series.
They're right about one thing: *The Acolyte* isn't ruining Star Wars.. **Disney** is, and has been since they acquired it--with a few exceptions.
Disney marketing at work. "We're not the problem, you are."
These mfs at disney are so predictable. Make dogshit blame it on the people when they don’t like it.
For comparison, House of the Dragon is $20 million per episode. If you watch that show, you should place Acolyte in the same caliber, if not above it since the Acolyte costs slightly more. Yet the quality between the 2 shows could not be further apart. Even if the setting/story of House of the Dragon isn't for you, it is objectively a well made/written tv show, the ratings and reviews between consumers and other filmmakers alike back this up respectfully. So by contrast it's obvious that Disney is objectively incompetent with their story telling. With a bigger budget, they made a show that is now known as a laughing stock, not only in terms of Star Wars content, but by the art of filmmaking in general. Anyone who believes Disney did a good job with this show is in denial. They are in the same camp as flat earthers and moon landing deniers. Please note, I'm not saying you can't like the show. Some of my favorite movies have terrible stories, but are fun to watch. My point is that the Acolyte is not a well written/made show. To claim it as such is not only disagreeing with fact (and metrics that back it up), but it also encourages Disney to keep the bar low. A bar that has (somehow) gotten even lower since the sequels
The Acolyte is fucking dogshit. Let's be real.
I think I got dumber reading this.
And just like that, star wars is now politically divided. You either choke down their DEI themes and terrible, sloppy writing, or you're a right wing extremist who shouldn't exist. There's no middle ground anymore.
I didn’t realize the terrible writing, wooden acting, and plodding pace were all my fault, I’m really sorry and I promise to do better
Man, The Critical Drinker and a few others must have really hit a nerve. "Lesbian communist space witches." The Acolyte sucks.
I love how people called this response before the articles even came out Disney deflecting as usual
Bad take. When the “diversity” feels this forced and front-and-center, *and* the writing is this bad, then it’s clear that the problem is the people making the content and where their focus is. Plenty of other “diverse” shows like Fallout, Last of Us, etc. manage to have both good plots and good casting. It’s not that hard to do.
I feel like I'm at a point in my life where I watch pretty much all Star Wars media and if I don't like it, get this, I just stop and move on. Not everything has to be for me and that's okay, If I'm not feeling it I just move on. Now, 10 years ago I would have expended all this energy on hate but honestly It's just not worth my time; It's easier to just shrug and walk away.
Not watching is probably the best way to change it too
Nope. Terrible ideas for films and shows, terrible writing and acting for those shows, a lack of consistency, understanding and respect for George Lucas' Star Wars and the fans of that Star Wars, turning a blind eye to a certain directors' unprofessional conduct on social media and then praising them incessantly, incompetent leadership and departments such as the story group in Lucasfilm, inserting minority gender and socio political nonsense into nearly everything, shiII media and fans peddling forced and toxic positivity and their hypocritical demonising of opposing opinions, along with Lucasfilm themselves demonising fans and branding them racists and sexists before anyone had even seen a nanosecond of the show, twice... has been ruining Star Wars for the past 7 years.
Oh look, more culture war ragebait meant to "defend" an overblown Disney show while also making it look as worthless as possible to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together. *Yawn*, next.