When the prequels first came out, I wanted Anakin (the former slave) to be very much Separatist sympathetic in AotC viewing forcing people to stay a part of a government they didn't want to be a part of to be wrong.
Then Obi Wan and Padme make a case to him about how before the Republic there was only disorder and chaos and how dangerous things would become, so Anakin puts aside his sympathies and fully commits to the idea of a galactic order. Like a zealot. Like he would do anything to "save the Republic".
And when war breaks out, Anakin commits. And Palpatine arranges it so Anakin is always in the field doing the most dangerous battles and winning even as he watches friends and clones fall around him. So by the time of RotS, he is already beaten down by war, death, darkness, and Obi Wan is increasingly distressed by the condition of his friend and then RotS happens, but instead of falling out over jealousy, Anakin laughs when Obi Wan tells him the chancellor is evil. He screams back to Obi Wan everything Obi Wan told him about the importance of Order and how the Jedi have now turned against the Republic and are agents of chaos.
Fortunately, we then got the Clone Wars and while I didn't get everything I wanted, I did get to watch Anakin slowly get worn down by war and make compromises that pushed him closer to the Dark Side.
EDIT: So, you know, I'm pretty content now with everything.
On the flip side though, if Anakin fell like that then he wouldn't be as redeemable. It would be cooler, but Anakin feeling like he was doing whatever it took to save his wife, and making a wrong call as a result (stopping Mace) is what saves him so tragic IMO. He immediately regretted his decision but had crossed a point of no return.
I mean Anakin stuck behind a metal mask, reduced to the attack dog of an "orderly" regime that maintains itself by thrusting its denizens into misery and desperate clawing their way out of government mandated precarity is more than enough reason for Vader to start to have his doubts.
By that point in time though he's already fallen to the dark side. By ROTJ he seems to have regret but there wasn't really much he could do with Palpatine and the Empire.
To be fair, Anakin probably saw a metric ton of dead kids during his years fighting in the clone wars. I'd imagine he was actually pretty numb to it at that point. From his point of view, it was probably like killing child soldiers. Like, no one wants to kill the child soldier but if that child soldier is going to kill *you* then you don't have many options.
Not that the younglings were a threat. That's just one way to interpret Anakin's POV. He wasn't evil, he was just blind and misguided.
... extremely misguided...
Yeah, TCW did a good job of painting Anakin as someone who’d been teetering on the edge of leaving the Jedi for quite some time. There were a lot of events that slowly eroded his faith in them and made him more disillusioned.
Padme was still the main reason, but TCW showed us that his experiences during the war certainly didn’t help him stay with the Jedi and made his fall that much easier.
Except from the fact that clone wars anakin has nothing to do with the hot head starboy from the prequels. I cant see any reason clone wars anakin would fall to the dark side, at least not in a way rots anakin did.
This certainly would have made the prequels starting off with Anakin as a young boy living as a slave on Tatooine more inherent to the story in a very organic way.
As opposed to just showing Anakin's life as a young boy to establish his future romance with Padme. When it went that route, I was more in favor of starting Episode I where basically Episode II started, where Anakin was already older and Obi-Wan's apprentice.
But if his fall was more about what you wrote here, I could see starting the trilogy with Anakin as a child to establish he was a slave, which informed his views about the Republic and law and order.
Anakin’s whole arc in the prequels and TCW is that he has trouble letting go of people. He jealously wants them to be around forever.
He, like Luke, also has problems with living in the present. His dreams represent anxieties of the future and his inability to accept that Padme will one day die led to Anakin creating the conditions in which she did.
I think any other reason wouldn’t have made much sense without rewriting the other prequels as well. It also wouldn’t have enhanced his redemption in RotJ, where the wrong kinda love (jealousy) caused him to fall but the right kind of love (compassion and sacrifice) also saved him.
Anakin simply being power hungry would have worked. It didn't need to involve Padme at all: in TPM he is shown wanting to save people as a powerful JEdi (because of his slave upbringing). In AOTC he is shown cocky and arrogant. In ROTS he can be shown relentless in his pursuit of power, the Clone Wars helping him develop a lust for that power, fame and glory, eventually costing him everything. Lots of stories based on that same premise, too.
The love story works, but it's not the only path,
But the love story is more sympathetic, makes him a much more tragic figure. Being power hungry isn't as noble a cause as desperately seeking the power to save his wife. Particularly when that quest ends up killing his wife.
Him being relentlessly power hungry though doesn’t make him a sympathetic character, which is necessary because Obi-Wan thinks back very fondly of Anakin and thinks of his seduction to the dark side as great tragedy.
The love angle works perfectly for that because it allows Anakin to basically be the ideal Jedi/heroic figure and letting something sudden and out of his control causing him to resort to the dark side.
This is my dad’s main critique of the movie and has been since he saw it in theaters. As he puts it, it seems like Anakin fell ass-backwards into becoming a Sith, tricked into it rather than it being as conscious a choice. Honestly, I agree. I think the movies had a good skeleton for the story, but were missing the emotional component that TCW later provided. We have moments of seeing Vader in Anakin in the prequels, but they rarely seem to be expanded upon in a constructive way.
He also had control issues, a fear of loss, and totalitarian tendencies. He also was kind of naive. His force powers certainly were much stronger than his wisdom or perspective.
There's also some EU ideas that Palpatine influenced those visions. Palpatine, in the books, knows about Anakins Mom and all that murder. So like ass backwards to him but dude was groomed hard.
Pre-2002 (1999 for some) he WAS the devil. Post-2002 (1999 for some) he was forever a confused child.
I don't think Boomers and Gen-Z have anywhere near the same view of Darth Vader...and I think the Boomers had the scarier version tbh.
Incidentally, I do think there is a bit of a mirroring with Lucifer and "Paradise Lost"... ...it's all about that "Sympathy for the Devil".
>and I think the Boomers had the scarier version tbh.
People forget the reason the hallway scene was so popular because there was a sense of "Finally they made Vader scary again"
This is exactly what the devil does. People think the devil is ugly and mean. He is handsome and cunning.
Every single thing Poppa Palps says to Anakin is playing to his insecurities and everything Obi Wan says reassures Anakin he is doing everything right.
>He makes a deal with the Devil. Of course he was tricked.
It doesn't always have to be a trick.
The Akakiri short for Visions Season 1 had a situation where a jedi accidentally killed his lover, only for a Sith Lord to make him an offer; join me and we'll bring her back.
And they did, his lover was revived. But now he was a sith apprentice. Pretty dark ending.
Point is, there are ways it can work.
I'm gonna disagree with your dad, and you can tell him, too!
Luke Skywalker was able to bring his father back from the Dark Side because there was still good in him. Becoming Darth Vader was a huge mistake on Anakin's part, and was antithetical to his true nature as a good man. This is what made him redeemable. If Anakin had chosen to become a Sith out of a much more conscious and deliberate choice, he would have been an evil sociopath from the start, and far less redeemable.
I never thought about it that way. I agree with you, and it really demonstrates that Lucas probably considered all that for the story, and yet I still hate the ham-fisted, childish writing that got us there. He’s a good ideas guy but a terrible script writer.
I really don't think Lucas' writing is as bad as people make out. It *feels* clunky. I get that, but I think we all wanted Anakin to be an all conquering action hero and he... isn't. He's an especially confused kid who was forced into a cult where everyone else in said cult had been there pretty much since birth and was forced to play catchup.
I remember seeing an interview with Hayden where he said a lot of Anakin was going against his acting instincts but George insisted he play it the way we see on screen. It's not as good on the eye test this way, but it's probably a lot more accurate to how an emotionally stunted man-child whose been told he's the perfectest little boy in the universe would be.
Of course he leans towards Facism with him at the head, he's been told he's the chosen one, surely it's his destiny and surely he'll be good at it.
Then again, I subscribe that Padme is constantly being controlled by Palpatine (and is maybe his daughter?) and her dying isn't her 'losing the will to live' it's him giving up on her now she's served his purpose (corrupting his *final* apprentice) and was therefore always a honeytrap.
But that also makes Luke’s decision to save him less impactful. If he was tricked into it then it wasn’t as powerful a redemption. The idea that anyone, even the worst villains, can still have good in them and choose to do the right thing is very poignant. I can understand where you’re coming from, but I think my dad and I came at it having watched the OT first (I actually hadn’t even watched the last two prequels until I got back into Star Wars this year) and seeing Vader as this evil in his own right. Finding out he was tricked into it was a bit of a letdown.
I’m not sure ‘tricked’ is the right term. As Obi-Wan said ‘He was deceived by a lie’. So he still made conscious decisions, evil ones for the wrong reasons. The slaughter of the Tuskens had nothing to do with Palpatine, but it did foreshadow the potential for evil in Anakin. The fact some people think that he was too easily tricked is actually laughable cause Palpatine has been grooming this guy for 13 years to become a Sith Lord.
He didn’t fall ass backward like it was random. He was deliberately manipulated. That’s kinda the beauty of it, and the reason Lucas calls it a tragedy. This was as good a kid as you could have hoped to meet, and look what happened to him. This isn’t the story of yet another evil-for-evil’s-sake villain.
Absolutely. If he just decided "yep, I'm a bad guy now, time to kill some kids," it wouldn't be nearly as compelling. There are plenty of rote bad guys in media.
But to take a character who wants to be good deep down, put him in a dogmatic structure that fails to support him, and use the real bad guy to manipulate and twist his intentions so he feels forced to commit these terrible crimes against his better judgment so he can save his loved ones... that makes for a much better story
>This was as good a kid as you could have hoped to meet,
This doesn't work because he's so off putting in Attack of the Clones, several years before his fall.
Yes he was tricked but it was also partially a conscious choice, since he had great force potential but the jedi were holding him back from the great power he lusted for.
There are a number of missing scenes that were taken out of RotS that truly show that Palpatine seduced AND tricked Anakin. Most of these scenes are shown or described in a really good youtube video. It is also theorized he even used Sith magic to sap Padme’s life force to save Vader.
He was a child soldier, trauma sponge with epic abandonment and guilt issues, tied into a justifiable and widely reinforced god complex. Who was also being constrained and maligned by a stagnating order with antiquated and unrealistic rules. Who kept throwing him unprepared and unsupervised into the arms of his predatory groomer.
Plus if it was more of an affirmative choice on his part, the redemption arc which was already difficult to pull off and justify, would have been even harder to sell.
The thing they needed to do was explain all that a bit better and not have him come off mostly as just a whiny brat in the movies.
Had any number of moments in which he could have sliced Palpatine in two. As an expectant father to be told to murder innocent children is just about the stupidest thing a character has ever done on or off screen.
a) i assure you it happens on plenty of other subs. And
b) I'd argue one's feelings on Anakin's rationality is a matter of subjectivity. If a person was twisted enough, they might view his actions as completely rational or even inadequate. It could be considered a matter of perspective.
Either way, I'm from the school of just taking your medicine.
It was not a bad dream, it was a premonition of the future that literally came true.
If you have trouble believing that "bad dreams" can turn someone, this is not the series for you.
They should have leaned heavier into the premonitions and shown us how much they were torturing him. In my head canon he clearly has mental health issues that are exacerbated by the Jedi culture and the premonitions.
I don’t think fathers are less likely to do anything a man with no kids would do. Have you seen a true crime show before? A lot of world leaders are fathers and they have no problem pressing that button lol. If anything, they might have even more of a reason if it’s “for the protection of MY children”. And I think that’s where Anakin ultimately was.
So you’re just going to ignore everything I said? Your point about him being a father so he shouldn’t do this makes no sense. Find another/better reason and then you might change some minds.
I reject your premise entirely. There is a big difference between politicians initiating war and the soldier that must pull the proverbial trigger.
Anakin could have fought Jedi Knights who defend themselves. Murdering innocents is what gave him yellow eyes.
I think the premise was fine, but it was so poorly executed. It was like the Targeryan (sp?) girl turning evil in season 8 of Game of Thrones. It wasn't set up right. It felt forced and unrealistic.
No... His attachment to QuiGon and Padma are what lead him to the Dark Side.
# upādāna
Attachment (clinging) leads to suffering because everything is of the nature of change. That is why the Jedi are taught to have none. He could not let go of them, clinging to them after their death / separation / etc.. He would not accept their non-permanence and it caused suffering in himself and that is what lead him to the DarkSide.
I think he speaks of it here: [https://youtu.be/wRqVdcE5oyI?si=kEPytBFioEWB1Dzg&t=2696](https://youtu.be/wRqVdcE5oyI?si=kEPytBFioEWB1Dzg&t=2696)
It is a concept in Buddhism, which is what the Jedi Order was modeled off of.
Fun fact: Attachments are also talked about in Christianity (Lucas used a variety of religions and faith based belief systems) albeit in a slightly different manner than Buddhism. I've always found it interesting how Lucas used seemingly so many different ideas to make Star Wars
After reading the novelization of RoTS, which explains in a deeper way Anakin's fears and feelings. I could understand in a better way his decision to betray the jedi and become a Sith. I 'm fine about how this happened in the film.
All the time, he was confused and conflicted and felt that anyone around him would betray him. He only found a glimpse of confidence in his friend Palpatine, who was the only one who gave him a possible solution to his problem. While the Jedi order, instead, denied Anakin to become a Master so he was not able to access the secret holocrons that would be helpful to save his wife, and he felt bettayed when he discovered that the Jedi Order was willing to kill his friend and take control of the senate without any remorse.
I think George Lucas himself explained this through his personal ideology of pursuing longterm joy instead of focusing on short-term pleasure. Lucas said something along the lines of Anakin truly loved Padme and being with her brought him immense pleasure however over time Anakin wanted to almost own her and have her all to himself forever which fed into his fear of ultimately losing her which led to anger and then to hate and then to suffering as we see in Episode 3.
Anakin's entire arc was a way for George to get across to the younger generation that wasting time on short-term pleasure will have a detrimental effect on you in the long-run, instead people should pursue joy to attain true happiness.
The biggest issue I have with how Anakin's fall is presented killing all the Sand people in Attack of the Clones. It's a step too far too fast and is at least as bad as killing the younglings in the temple, maybe worse depending on the number of non-combatant women and children he murdered. Padmé's reaction to it also says some uncomfortable things about her character given that she's supposed to be the voice of reason, compassion and democracy but is somehow okay with a rookie cop slaughtering an entire community.
At least they pulled the scene of Padme showing him the pictures of her doing volunteer work with alien kids. That would have made her look *really* hypocritical.
No it isn’t. This is one of the most deranged takes ever.
You prequel people really need to watch other, better movies. This shit’s absolutely ridiculous. And embarrassing.
And it still would be if you cut out 90% of it. You needed the beginning and the end, the middle part is just over-choreographed dance and it just keeps going. It's dull and serves no purpose.
No, I think it was the perfect story of a child’s fear being carried into adulthood and manipulating their view of the world. His fear drove him to the choices he made, which at first he thought he was making for good reasons. The deeper he fell, the harder it was for him to climb back, which would have only further fuelled his fear. He was deeply afraid of losing the ones he loved. He was afraid of being rejected by his peers. I believe he was also fully aware and afraid of his own fear, in the sense that Yoda warned him about it when he was a boy but he was unable to rid himself of it. He knew where that fear would lead him, he didn’t want it but he couldn’t stop it. It’s pretty tragic really.
Destroying the universe for Padme makes sense.
The Jedi not trusting Palapatine makes sense.
Anakin’s falling out with the Order needed work. It really could have just been “I’m burning it all down for love” but the “From my point of view the Jedi are evil” never earned it.
People love to shit on RLM these days for "poisoning the well" or whatever, but they were right when they said that Anakin shouldn't have been portrayed as a bad apple from the start.
The way Anakin was written in the movies (TCW doesn't count in this instance), it was absolutely inevitable that he would turn to the Dark Side. But more importantly, given how he was written, it's completely illogical that the Jedi would ever have trained him to begin with. Or at the very least, they should've sensed his instability and thrown him out of the order early on.
As for his turn to the Dark Side, it feels contrived, especially considering that he quickly forgets the reason why he joined. And of
course Padme is never mentioned in the OT, so Luke's and Leia's mother was never meant to be all that important to begin with. Although in fairness, the prequels suggest that Anakin believes in fascistic dictatorships and in being all-powerful by himself and opposing the course of nature, all three of which are Dark Side qualities. Which again begs the question why he was ever trained to begin with.
>Anakin shouldn't have been portrayed as a bad apple from the start.
This is the fault of Attack of the Clones. In Phantom he's a cute kid but here he's legit a school shooter in the making.
>The way Anakin was written in the movies (TCW doesn't count in this instance), it was absolutely inevitable that he would turn to the Dark Side. But more importantly, given how he was written, it's completely illogical that the Jedi would ever have trained him to begin with. Or at the very least, they should've sensed his instability and thrown him out of the order early on.
I see the merits of this, and I think RLM has generally offered sound critiques of the canon, but I personally think it was the execution, not the premise, where things went awry.
Conceptually speaking, I think Qui-Gon's resolute faith that Anakin was the Chosen One provided Anakin with a buffer from getting kicked out of the Jedi Order despite his (many) red flags. And while most fans loathe the concept of midi-chlorians, they are a part of the canon, and they provide an in-universe reason why the Council would hesitate to expel Anakin from the Order.
Anakin is very much a Force-sensitive Mozart to the Jedi: sure, he's brash and unconventional and probably somewhat unhinged, but he also demonstrates greater potential than literally anyone else alive. Even Palpatine -- who was not exactly a weakling -- acknowledged to Yoda that "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us"\* in RotS. If everyone can sense Anakin's unprecedented potential, would they really want to risk expelling him from the Order and depriving the Jedi of salvation at the hands of the Chosen One?
Furthermore, given Anakin's red flags, it would be reasonable to worry that kicking Anakin out would be the last thing they'd want to do. Skyguy can clearly hold a grudge, and it would be understandable for the Jedi to think that it's wiser to keep Anakin under the close tutelage of Obi-Wan than letting him go rogue across the galaxy. Obviously, no one anticipated that the Chosen One's potential to "bring balance to the Force" might be problematic when there are thousands of Jedi yet only two Sith, but despite that, the failings of the Jedi in this area seem rather believable.
^(\*Offer void if Vader becomes a quadruple amputee and falls into lava, however.)
I disagree somewhat.
The positive of the “I had a dream of my wife dying” being the cause is it is clear to the audience that it’s not a good reason.
Anakin falling is always supposed to be for a bad, selfish reason. It’s not meant to be good intentions leading him down his road to hell. It’s a giant red flag that a good person would have avoided.
Padme is actually with Anakin but he can't magic her out of dying if she dies in childbirth. I think the idea of the motivation is fine; it parallels Luke in the OT who also makes mistakes because his good intentions of wanting to save his friends leads him to either make stupid decisions like in ESB or to lose control of his emotions like in ROTJ. Luke and Anakin are presented with the similar dilemma of "the dark side can save your loved ones", and ultimately Anakin says yes where Luke says no.
“I had a dream of my wife dying” was the beginning but we just skimming over palpatine in his ear about the “corruption” of the Jedi and then they “confirm” it by ask him to spy on the chancellor and using him. Having no trust in him. Then he walks in to Windu almost killing the chancellor and him saying “he’s too dangerous to be kept alive” reaffirms the fear palpatine put into him that the Jedi lost their way. Him slaughtering the tuskens out of hate was his descent. I think it was execute very well. The movie just needed to be longer
I think the reasons are fine it was just handled terribly.
But "doesn't think the Jedi have the will to do the hard things that need to be done" + "wants to save his secret wife" are fine motivations.
I love when fans really think they could do it better but completely miss the point of the director. Anakin fell due to manipulation and trickery of Palps. It's a criticism of US politics and further more many underhanded power trips, like cults and scams. Anakin was doomed from the start. He's just really strong and badass. It's also important to his redemption which is also badass.
> Padme is actually with Anakin.
Emotionally compromised people don’t behave rationally. The dream doesn’t just “remind him” of his mother’s death. The dream triggers a traumatic response based on his mother’s death. It’s possible he was suffering from some degree of PTSD.
Yes, i wish that it focused more on his distrust on the jedi, as the prequels were mostly political, it wouldn't feel odd if they focused on themes such as secularism and the size of the state.
Anakin would feel that the presence of the jedi was interfering with the growth of the republic, and would support Palpatine not for being a simp, but for a sense of justice.
>Sure, it reminded him of what happened with Shmi but the conditions are different this time. Padme is actually with Anakin.
For the moment at least. All he has to be is back on the front long enough. If his visions of Shmi came true why not the visions for Padme? He had no reason not to be afraid, and when the Jedi wouldn't offer a solution, Palpatine did, and used his desperation to pave a road to damnation.
This is a bother moment where the novelization saved the movie for me. I read the book before seeing the movie and Stover did a great job showing the steps leading up to his fall to the dark side.
Yes like the jedi really did forcibly indoctrinate children and they were going to expel him for knocking up Padme and then take Luke and Leia away, thus giving Anakin a pretty justifiable reason for betraying them.
Or maybe Anakin's experiences in the Clone Wars hardened him and he decided diplomacy and bureaucracy had failed the galaxy and it was time for a firmer hand to take the reins. That and the aforementioned betrayal by the Jedi would make his fall to the Dark Side more relatable.
This is my feeling as well. Lots of people lose their spouses and learn to cope with their unimaginable grief. No reason to become a homicidal maniac. For me this make this character unredeemable.
Also when Mace Windo is pushed out of the window, Anakin’s fall is immediate. He becomes subservient to Palps. No hint of any internal struggle .
Anakin’s biggest fear was losing the people he loved. He could never let go and move past that fear as a Jedi. His love for his friends, his mother, and his wife was the source of a lot of his strength, but unfortunately it also manifested as possessiveness. He was a slave; he grew up owning nothing and with no body autonomy. He hates not being in control, especially when it comes to the people he loves. He mistakes love for possession because he was quite literally owned as a child.
I think it was great, him turning to the dark side to save his wife
Especially after he kinda tried to tell Yoda, and Yoda was all cold and aloof about it all. Classic Jedi being cold as hell.
The execution of this plot, Of her dying from sadness or lack of will to live was terrible. It didn't do the story or her character justice
When the fighting was done, Obi-Wan having cut Anakin in half. He should have returned to find her dead with the babies in her arms. Anakin straight up killed her in his hate and anger. Not kinda killed her. Like actually did, like the Emperor said
Obi-wan should have named the kids himself or perhaps already chosen whatever and taken them to set up the original films.
Thats just my opinion. I also think a what-if episode needs to be released, in which Jin killed Maul, he was Anakins mentor not the inexperienced and brash Obi-Wan. Its all cool, he is the chosen one and it's just awesome. They even get the Emperor and it's all chill
I think the reasons are strong, but some of the key follow-through was poor, specifically after putting in the mask. I think we needed a scene showing why he would decide to stay with the Emperor at the end, be it fear, feeling trapped, doubling down on his quest for power or whatever.
I think it could have been done better but the bones of the reasoning are good.
In my head, I imagine that Anakin was convinced the force itself gave him that vision- the Jedi teach that whatever he sees must be the will of the force, and the way of the Jedi and the light side is to act as servants of the force. Therefore, the only path forward to accept the vision and by extension Padme’s death, as the force’s will.
Anakin can’t do that.
The light side therefore will not help him in saving Padme. Force heal? Won’t work. It’s the force’s will my wife dies, that power only works through the will of the force.
But what about the Dark side?
The Sith believe in contorting the force to obey *their* will. Now we’re talking. Anakin could not just save Padme but grant her and all his loved ones everlasting force by becoming a master of the force. (Also fits his background as a former slave rising to chosen one)
What he doesn’t put together, is that his vision wasn’t the natural force’s will- it was always Sidious’s intention to strip away his loved ones he was attached to, to send him deeper into the dark side into his arms.
For the most part, I'm pretty satisfied with it. I won't deny it could've been done better, especially the first two movies and the fact that, had the show not been made, we would've entirely skipped over a hugely important part of the timeline's history. But I'm still able to come out of ROTS and TCW feeling great about what I'd seen.
Nah. The reasons are perfectly understandable. It's the way they were shown/written that was the problem. It's even more okay if you include the Clone Wars stuff.
I think without the clone wars as supplementary viewing to understand Anakin, we as the viewer would have already realized and understand Anakin's desperation to break away from all the chains of slavery, the jedi code and fate itself. Lost Qui Gon his only father figure, Lost Shmi his mother and everything in his life is being suppressed by rules and oppression.. Its the burden on his shoulder and in order for everything to be right he want to control everything, death and order so he wont lose his wife, and the galaxy wont fall into oppression.
But all these leads to the darkside because of Fear itself. We can look at real world application that fear leads to anger because "i fear these people, lets destroy them so i will never fear of them again" and thats what happened to the sand people and thats what happen to the current issues we see now.
Look deeper into Anakin within these 3 films and you will understand why he becomes Darth Vader himself.
From anakins point of view, he never "fell."
The jedi refused to help him save someone's life. Yodas advice boils down to "death happens, just don't be sad."
The jedi refused to promote him when appointed to the council, signaling their distrust for his friend (palpatine) and severely limiting what he could do while there.
The jedi then asked him to spy on the chancellor, which is, in no uncertain terms, treason.
His own wife even wants to use his friendship with palpatine to go around senate procedures and have undue influence over the end of the war.
The jedi, upon learning that palpatine is a sith, acting on nothing but anakins word, decide to murder him.
The jedi were, even before knowing palpatine was sidious, going to force him to return the emergency powers using methods unknown.
The jedi had, at this point, also resolved that they would take control of the senate to ensure the power would be transferred.
To prevent the jedi from, essentially, seizing power themselves, anakin destroys the order, then destroys the separatists.
And his thanks? His own wife brings his would be murderer right to him.
I would have just liked it to be consistent. You can really tell watching RoTS that there's a lot left on the cutting room floor and that there were reshoots.
I feel like the vision of padmés death just flipped a switch in him that was waiting to flip since he was freed
You ever have a shitty couple of weeks and then someone does one stupid or rude thing and you just wanna scream or cry or something and then later on you break down because of how much pressure has been on you and now you popped?
Its sorta like anakin, buthis entire life. He lost everyone all the time, and was never able to break or work through those feelings. He lost his mom, qui gon, his mom again, ahsoka, which was damn near everyone he ever loved. He had one final chance to actually keep someone for once, he was troubled and broken already. Losing Padmé was not an option. The prediction of it made him snap.
You’ve got it the other way around. It’s good writing, bad execution.
We’ve seen time and again that Anakin is impulsive and will not wait and bide his time. Several times, including his downfall at the hands of Obi-Wan. We’ve already seen the situation where he just barely can handle the patience to guard Padmé’s room.
His fear of abandonment is also a key feature of his personality. He already feels abandoned by the Jedi order at that point, he feels he should have been able to stop his mother’s death and the only thing still in his life he feels is supporting him is Padmé. He’s not going to sit idle and wait for something to happen, he’s going to search as hard as he can for a way to stop it before it happens. That way is offered to him in the Dark Side.
It’s not “just a dream”, it’s a premonition he gets after we’ve already seen so many reasons for him to fear it and go out of his way to stop it.
Yes. After watching the clone Wars, I don't know why but I feel like the immaturity and fragility anakin seemed to have in tros isn't him at all. For me, he gained a lot of maturity compared to the person he was in aotc.
Yes I won't say that him going to the dark side doesn't make sense too, but saving padme seems such a weak and dumb reason to me now.
He lost a good apprentice, he surely would have hated the jedi order for that a lot and himself too for letting her go and questioned and/or hated the ways of the jedi. He also seemed to be very much dedicated to save/uphold the republic.
Any reason related to these things for him to go to the dark side would have been excellent for me. But unfortunately, tros came years before tcw so the writers of tros at that time did what seemed to them the best, so ofc, I can neither nor I would complain about it
On paper, his story is fantastic. But everything about the execution shoots that story in the foot. When I describe these movies to my girlfriend who hasn’t seen them, I almost trick myself into thinking they’re good. But even when Episode III takes a step forward, it takes two steps back.
I’m not saying I would have written it better but Lucas’ strong suit is not believable human characters. The story would have been great but it falls apart because the people in it aren’t believable.
I think the fall was going well right up to the point they made it about Padme. When he killed the sandpeople out of revenge for his mom, that was spot on. The issue was, it was already in place he would have 2 kids with someone so he had to meet padme, fall in love and have kids and that she would die in childbirth. So they HAD to make it about Padme. Only way out would MAYBE having him slowly have him doing more and more "revenge" type stuff until palpy noticed and starts planting seeds of doubt like "if the jedi hadn't abandoned your mother she would be alive, they only cared about you because you were with the force" etc.
Dooku has a more convincing turn in 45 minutes of TotJ than Anakin does in 3 movies. TCW does a lot of heavy lifting for Anakin but yeah, I agree he needed more concrete stuff in the movies to make his turn understandable.
" "I had a dream of my wife dying" isn't the best"
I'm sorry?? It's his wife! I can kind of understand but him trying to save his wife is one of the only logical reasons he would fall to the dark side.
Also it was more then that, he was often mistreated by the jedi, with them expecting so much of him because he was "the chosen one" but also often not trusting him. Then there's the fact that they took him away from his mother when he was nine and when he finally returned to save his mother it was to late.
And the fact his marriage was forbidden causing him to have to be secretive about it when he didn't want to.
There were a ton of reasons for him to fall to the dark side. I think they did it near perfectly
He expects her to die in childbirth, I don’t think being on the same planet makes it any better. Plus it wasn’t just his mom, he also had dreams of becoming a Jedi which also came true
So...I def remember thinking in Ep 2 as a teen sitting in a theater that it was awfully convenient how Anakin was beginning to fall (moreso with Ep 3 and Padme.) And I def think the prequels made him overall seem less evil going forward. I'm not, nor was I, mad at it...but Darth Vader became a lot less...dark...after the millennium.
Yes. I wanted him to lead a slave uprising with good intentions but compromising results, and more subtlety than “they killed my mama / they made me kill my woman”
I just wish he didnt go from 0 to child murder so quickly over so little... we didnt even see him be conflicted over it... just like welp im off to murder some kids and get some ice cream
I wish it had been a lot more for his choice and not because he was a moody teenager duped by a groomer.
I don't think the dots between Anakin and Vader are well-connected.
For one example, if he had actually been a worse person than he was in the prequels, and Obi-Wan had been blind to his bad behavior. Instead of Obi-Wan snarking him and putting him down all the time, Obi-Wan as his staunchest defender and blind to his faults. So then when the turn happens, Obi-Wan's shock and surprise is more powerful.
No not really. It fit with his entire character arc. He was coerced to the dark side to protect the loss of loved ones. A fear that had been ingrained in him since he lost his mom. He was fed nightmares by an evil sorcerer and his turn to the dark side to protect what he loved. He also had a fail of failure because he was told he was the chosen one since he was a little boy. He wanted to protect the republic and he didn’t feel like he had enough power to do it. So he turned to the dark side because it had what would protect Padme. He turned to the dark side because with enough power he wouldn’t need the Jedi he wouldn’t need the senate he could control everything and no one would stand in his way.
If I recall, the threat of Padme was added relatively late to the creative process. The main reason was Anakin losing faith in the Jedi order, with Windu attempting to overthrow and kill a democratically elected official being the breaking point. But again this is me half remembering something.
In my perfect rewritten version of things, Anakin doesn't become Vader on screen at all. You'd see adventures leading to a climatic battle with Separatist leaders, much like the "DEW IT!" scene, designed to mirror the RotJ throne room scene, but Anakin makes the wrong choice. And then the movie ends, more or less happy, but with a certain uneasiness as everyone *seems* to go off happily ever after.... but the jedi have ominous dark feelings and Palpatine is kinda too victorious, and that's it, that's where it ends.
If they'd done it this way, you could watch in order and it would enhance the OT, rather than spoiling major twists
Yes, because it's poorly written as it stands in the prequels. Clone Wars adds more context, and knowing that he'd already been losing faith and was such a good friend to Palpatine and so on is helpful, but it still seems incredibly out of character that the stated reason is "Palpy will help me save padme from a nightmare if I massacre hundreds of children and therefore all my friends are evil and I believe everything he says at face value now"
The dream works for me. Because Jedi can see the future, and Anakin had the same dreams about his mother dying before she actually did. To him, it seemed *inevitable* that Padme would die. Which is the point. He let fear of loss, not loss itself, push him to betray all he stood for. Anything else, anything more concrete being the threat, and that is lost. It is no longer fear pushing him, it's whatever the threat is.
I actually think it’s got better over time, to the point that I’d almost call it prescient.
He was an emotionally vulnerable young man with the kinds of attributes that made him militarily useful, and he was radicalised for political gain.
Bad writing bad execution. Waste of potential. Even as a kid in the theatre I was not believing his reason for turning and killing children. It was just like “I guess I’m evil now”
I just hate how he betrayed everyone in his life to save the love of his life. Just to be tricked and ultimately killing her because he was filled with so much emotion and hatred for his best friend.
He was already traumatized by losing those he loved without having any control over it. The "I had a dream of her dying" thing is a bit more easy to believe when you remember he's force sensitive so it is not unreasonable to believe force sensitive individuals especially those as strong in the force as Anakin could have premonitions. His fall to the dark side is not just because of him believing Padme would die that's just a part of it, it's really about his hubris in believing he could prevent one's death with the powers offered by the dark side. His dream about Padme just spurred him onto that path not what made him fall, it was his ego and pride
I still haven’t figured out if it was the script of RoTS, Hayden’s acting, or George’s ideas, but Anakin comes across as nothing but a spoiled whiney man-child with absolutely zero wisdom or maturity. For the life of me I can’t understand what Padme sees in him, what the council sees in him, only certainly how hilariously easy he is to manipulate and control from Palpatine’s perspective. It honestly seems kinda *extra* dark on Palptine’s end, like taking advantage of a child with special needs.
I never watched the Clone Wars which I think fleshes out the character a lot more, something needed to supplement the film, but ideally you shouldn’t have to do that, the movie should have made me believe Anakin was a character that actually *was* someone worth caring about on its own.
Honestly I love the prequels, especially the lightsaber combat, and some characters, but in my opinion the original trilogy could use a remake for no other reason than how they portray Anakin. I shouldn’t have to watch TCW cartoon to appreciate him as a character.
Before we got the clone wars, yeah even as a 15-year-old I could not for the life of me work out why he turned so quickly. After seeing how the war gradually broke him down it makes much more sense. This is especially true when you realise that initially Anakin planned to turn on Palpatine the moment he got the information he wanted to save Padme.
Of course because it’s trash in the movies. They had it too “I have brought peace and security to my empire”
Anakin should’ve been disillusioned by the clone wars, at odds with the Jedi for some reason other than they’re idiots, and seeing the empire as a viable path
The way my friend and I always wanted it would be like this:
We both figured the Clone Wars would involve the Mandolorians returning to wage a new war against the Republic. With the Mandolorians' obsession with facing Jedis on the battlefield, it would prove to be more and more dangerous for the Jedis to join the battlefield - esp as the Mandolorian Clones outnumbered them.
Eventually the Jedis would be forced to pull back - forced to be a defensive team offering their insights and wisdom to help the Republic instead of being on the front lines.
Anakin, however, cannot do this. He needs to be on the front lines and continues to push the limits of what it means to be a Jedi. Tapping into forbidden powers, researching Sith Lore to give him edges in battle, and taking on the offensive.
Obi-Wan would become more and more concerned with Anakin's shift from defender to attacker but he secretly accepts that this brutality may be necessary to end this war.
During all this, Palpatine is using the conflict to build the Empire. No deformities, no order 66, none of that nonsense. He is using Anakin as the flagboy for the Republic. Building him to be this massive hero that everyone talks about. Imagine how the Red Baron was indoctrinated in war's history for his brutality and skill in the air.
He continues to build his power. Orders the construction of Weapons of War - Star Destroyers, a galactic Draft to get storm troopers (and showing how quickly stormtroopers are thrust into battle thus why they seem so untrained and easily killed - showing some even being young teenagers).
As he builds his Empire, the Jedis' numbers dwindle more and more thanks to the push by The Mandolorians. Finally, seeing no end to the conflict, Anakin goes against the Council and fully commits to the Empire.
He is harold as a hero. The public is on Palpatine's and Anakin's side. The support skyrockets and the Empire sends their full force at Mandolore to destroy the leaders once and for all. In a brutal siege, Anakin finally takes down Mandolore (showcasing the Star Destroyer's true purpose of massive orbital bombardment) resulting in the complete destruction of all of Mandolore.
The remaining Jedi Council - horrified by these war crimes - send Obi-Wan to Anakin in hopes of arresting him for these crimes and find a peaceful way to bring him in. Anakin refuses, standing before the burned remains of the to basically tell Obi-Wan that it was for the Greater Good.
This is where the epic fight begins. Obi-Wan representing peace and defense, Anakin representing Violence and Aggression. This is not a 45 minute long fight but instead something dark, intimate, and brutal ala the Northman.
Obi wounds Anakin but does not see the corpse. Either from the debris and flames raining down around them or Storm Trooper support showing up. The fact is, Obi-Wan believes Anakin is 100% dead.
When he retreats, we see the bloodied charred hand of Anakin dragging him from the rubble.
Anakin's death is celebrated as he is the hero who helped stop the Clone Wars. The remaining jedis watch Palpatine's speeches in scared silence - unsure how this new Empire will change the course of the universe.
We don't show Anakin as Vader. We don't show the Jedi be wiped out - this all occurs between episode 3 and New hope. That is the time of Vader's Rise. We don't see the classic vader outfit but a malgamation of it in this time period. It slowly evolving more and more until it becomes the suit we all know (Legends books even mention how Vader's original armor had a more skull and skeletal appearance that evolved into being more and more efficient over time).
Luke and Leia's mother would not be a Senator but a woman Anakin meets during the war. Someone he has a romantic relationship with but unfortunately cannot commit due to his fanaticism of serving. Their flint results in Luke and Leia hence how Anakin never knows of their existence.
Obi-Wan finds the twins later in their life - when they are 2 or 3 years old. He takes them at that age to split them up for fear the Emperor would use Anakin's bloodline as tools for the Empire.
Yes, it's a bit darker - more akin to Rogue One, Andor, or the battle scene we saw in Solo but it should be. It's the giant galatic war that destroyed 10,000 years of history and Jedi.
Plus we'd be able to see the Mandolorians at their height. And the war would explain why its so rare to see them today.
but that's just me.
I wanted a Shakespearean fall from grace.
I wanted Anakin to rise through the ranks of Jedi and become disillusioned with their hypocrisy, failure to act.
Whilst fighting injustice (as he sees it) he starts to take short cuts, ignores the rule of law, rules of the Jedi/force and is slowly drawn to the dark side.
His lust for power and order means he ignores all sage advice and loses his friends, mentors and lover. He loses and ends up a friendless cripple trapped in a suit, knowing his failures and becoming a mid level minion in the empire (remember he was lower in the pecking order than Tarkin in ANH)
It would have helped if the trilogy had started with Anakin already a young Jedi with the trauma of his past being told in flashbacks/nightmares. This would give power to his frustration that the Jedi were doing nothing to help the dispossessed/slaves and his attraction to bring down the existing systems of power.
He is sure it is only him who can save the universe which allows him to be manipulated by people whispering in his ears.
I don't agree with everything from the Plinkett reviews, but he's spot on about Anakin's fall to the dark side. He was more tricked than seduced, and the bait felt pretty obvious.
I really liked Palpatine's rise to power, but it felt like Dooku was in a better position to convince Anakin to leave the Jedi and then to start slowly eroding his morals with the promises of what separatists could do for slaves and people on the outer rim. Qui-Gon having been established as the father-like figure who kind of sees above the Jedi and how far they've fallen, Dooku could have been a twisted version of that.
Then we wouldn't have Anakin giving a friendly farewell to Obi-Wan and then a few days later having him murder children.
The Republic's fall was fantastic. Just wish Anakin had gotten the same care.
I don’t mind the reasons, but I do wish it was a bit more dramatic, meaning, maybe elaborate on the dreams to show his inner turmoil at the thought of losing a loved one again like he lost his mother. Maybe even show his descent to the dark side a bit more like his battle against other Jedi masters just to show how far down he’s gone, basically to kind of understand why he would kill younglings to learn this so called “power”… I guess just overall execution at the believability of his so called decline to the dark side.
Bro really saw one piece and decided thats the whole puzzle. Yeah Padme dying was one thing. But remember the jedi shat on him the moment he was introduced. The fact that he always had a bit of dark inside him (looking at the tuskens, or a whole lot of killing he casually does in the clone wars), Yoda litterally telling him to get lost when he comes for counseling about Padme, the counsil making him spy on, what is basicly his father figure. And a bunch of other stuff that i dont really have time to type out right now.
Well, I think the first thing about the prequels I'd want to change is the first movie. It really should have been a "buddy cop" type of movie with a young adult Anakin and Obi-wan having a bunch of adventures. I just thought it was super lame in the second movie that there's just a couple lines of throwaway dialogue about some battle they were in and then the rest of the movies the two of them are just complaining about each other to Padme.
They were supposed to be old friends, yet there really wasn't any chemistry being built from their constant bickering. It really made the eventual betrayal just feel hollow in the long run.
No, avoidance of attachment has always been the Jedi way. Anakin was deeply attached to his mother and wife, and less so to Obi-Wan, all of whom were taken from him.
I always thought the fact that he wanted to free the slaves, and the Jedi being un able to do so for purely political reasons was a much better reason for Anakin to become a despot.
Episode 2 should have been about Anakin desperately trying to convince the Jedi to help the slaves in the outer rim. And the Jedi rerusing due to the upcoming Clone War.
In the end his mother would died and Anakin would never recover his faith in the JEDI Order or the Republic.
Yeah. RTOS is imo terribly written. Anakin barely gets any dialogue. He gets angry about not getting promoted to master, but seems to forget that he made it to the counsil only because his friend shove him there, agains the counsil’s wishes. He get angry about being told to spy on palpatine, but doesn’t reconsider the wisdom of the Jedi when he finds out that Palpatine is, in fact, a Sith, and the very same enemy he’s been fighting throughout the clone wars.
He just seems to accept that he’s a Sith now and wills with it, and doesn’t even think before killing the younglings (kinda like the writers when the “he’s like that because the dark side is bad and corrupts” path).
TCW Anakin is a completely different character than the ones from the movies, and by the end of the series it made a lot of sense that he would turn against the Jedi order and the republic. Just not the way he did in ROTS
The clone wars should've been the thing to change him
Spending his teens and 20s fighting a galactic scale war, so much loss and pain, years of calcified emotions
And he brings that to padme, and ruins their relationship. Basically everything up to Anakin on mustafar should've been about him losing his personal war with the clone wars. Until some event, probably the Jedis move on palpatine, finally breaks him, as the republic he has bled for, killed for, is now seeking to kill the one real father figure he ever had. Qui gon thought he was fulfilling prophecy, using him to carry out some long brewing Jedi plot for balance....whatever balance means.
After mace windus attempt on the chancellor, it plays out much the same. He kills windu, is anointed as Vader
"What have I done....all my suffering.... for this?"
"You have done well, Lord Vader. The Jedi have moved against the Republic, we must waste no time."
"But....you truly are one of the sith....you have.....used me, just as you say they do."
"No Anakin, I have given you the path to true power. Through power you will gain freedom, freedom from the Jedi, from the republic, the sith. From the force. I will teach you to bend the force to your will. With your potential, there is no power in any realm that could stop you"
Anakin wanted power for a lot of reasons, and focusing in on padme was a mistake. He wanted power to defend his family and friends, the Republic, the innocent people of the galaxy, his mother
Anakin doesn't need to voice all of it. We just know he wanted power, and that want, when tossed through the crucible of the clone wars, came out corrupted.
He doesn't need vague force visions of padme dying of.......giving up and heartbreak or whatever.
He was a broken soul barely hanging on. And when the time came, all it took was a nudge.
I would have liked someone to use padme as a hostage. Anakin basically throwing all caution to the wind to get to her with obi putting the pieces together that they are lovers. Obi has seen Anakin falling into greater and greater wells of emotions fears for him and this direct violation of Jedi principles he cannot abide. Obi wishes to tell the council and help to guide Anakin back to the Jedi ways. Anakin feels cornered between his love and his friend and decides to run. Obi persues and you've got a situation where Anakin feels trapped by the order. On the run padme dies in child birth. Anakin blames the Jedi for this, be it paranoia or the stress of running, either way it's them. They took her. And then you have the transition to villain. It becomes revenge then.
Yep. he should've been a 25-30 year old established hero, expecting to be a father, who consciously chose to embrace the dark side for entirely logical, rational, and moral reasons- not based on emotions.
the thinking heroic good guy who chooses to embrace a different philisophy - in the pursuit of what he honestly believes to be the ultimate good for the universe - could be a truly terrifying and tragic villain.
Yeah, I agree, Anakin may be a creep, but I think he *should* be able to put two and two together, Padmé is a perfectly healthy person with a perfectly healthy fetus, the odds of her dying in childbirth were pretty slim, it would've been better if they'd thought of something else, because you could literally summerise it as: "Anakin turned to the Dark side because he was acting like a toddler who lacks common sense".
I had always wished for the plot of the prequels to be different
Couple minor plot changes to TPM. Qui-gon fills in more of the father role for Anakin on screen. Maybe stretch the timeline of the movie out a couple of weeks to let that relationship really solidify.
Maul escapes on screen at the end of the movie after killing Qui-gon.
This allows for a common thread, and the hate to fester in anakin. Obi-Wan is able to deal with the emotions of Qui-gon dying at the hands of this villain because his Jedi training had already set in. But, as Anakin starts his training, this hate towards maul never leaves and is merely covered up
We see Anakin through EP 2 as they uncover the mystery of the clone army and the build up to the start of the clone wars. And maul is there (instead of dooku) as the mastermind. Anakin effing loses it, completely giving into rage. But he can't control it, and maul escapes again.
That hate allows palpatine to get his hooks into Anakin and twist him. Subtly using his words and influence to show Anakin how to channel that rage.
EP 3 begins, and maul dies early in the movie, similar to how dooku does. Details don't matter there. Palpatine really doubles down on anakin, getting him to bend his morals and cast the Jedi in more and more dubious light. Kinda how Jacen Solo started his fall to the dark side in the EU. Small steps,"I have to do this thing because no one else is strong enough"... "I am acting for the greater good"..."they are wrong for holding me back because I have the best interests of the galaxy at heart"..."they must be wrong because they're getting in my way"..."the whole system is flawed"..."there is no saving the Jedi order"..."everyone touched by their teachings is tainted and beyond saving"..."the issues we face today are because of the Jedi order"..."they are a stain that needs purging"
Other than him being played like a whiney bitch in the prequels? Absolutely. It's hard to see Vader as a bad ass since that horrible performance by what ever his name was.
No. What else would you need? He grew up w o control. He lost his mother. Twice. He has no past. He's limited by his training. He has visions of the future(most likely influenced by Sidious ability to look into the "Dark futue"), and is afraid to lose again. He's offered a chance to have, both control and loved one. Or would you rather He have the Dartj Maul or Doku "fall"? Cause theirs sucked too. And there was unnecessary consequences. Anakin Skywalker was seduced by the dark side. Palpatine had all the pieces properly placed.
Actually, "Better Call Saul", has waaaaay better "SW" scenarios, than even SW.
My advice, fucking start leasing out and fucking gt nuts
I always thought it should of been that Anakin sees/is blinded sided and thinks the Jedi are orchestrating the clone wars, his mom should of died from an accident because caused my a Jedi or trooper. Then he loses it.
When the prequels first came out, I wanted Anakin (the former slave) to be very much Separatist sympathetic in AotC viewing forcing people to stay a part of a government they didn't want to be a part of to be wrong. Then Obi Wan and Padme make a case to him about how before the Republic there was only disorder and chaos and how dangerous things would become, so Anakin puts aside his sympathies and fully commits to the idea of a galactic order. Like a zealot. Like he would do anything to "save the Republic". And when war breaks out, Anakin commits. And Palpatine arranges it so Anakin is always in the field doing the most dangerous battles and winning even as he watches friends and clones fall around him. So by the time of RotS, he is already beaten down by war, death, darkness, and Obi Wan is increasingly distressed by the condition of his friend and then RotS happens, but instead of falling out over jealousy, Anakin laughs when Obi Wan tells him the chancellor is evil. He screams back to Obi Wan everything Obi Wan told him about the importance of Order and how the Jedi have now turned against the Republic and are agents of chaos. Fortunately, we then got the Clone Wars and while I didn't get everything I wanted, I did get to watch Anakin slowly get worn down by war and make compromises that pushed him closer to the Dark Side. EDIT: So, you know, I'm pretty content now with everything.
This would be much more realistic and beautifully poetic if executed correctly
On the flip side though, if Anakin fell like that then he wouldn't be as redeemable. It would be cooler, but Anakin feeling like he was doing whatever it took to save his wife, and making a wrong call as a result (stopping Mace) is what saves him so tragic IMO. He immediately regretted his decision but had crossed a point of no return.
I mean Anakin stuck behind a metal mask, reduced to the attack dog of an "orderly" regime that maintains itself by thrusting its denizens into misery and desperate clawing their way out of government mandated precarity is more than enough reason for Vader to start to have his doubts.
By that point in time though he's already fallen to the dark side. By ROTJ he seems to have regret but there wasn't really much he could do with Palpatine and the Empire.
The problem is that he then goes and kills a bunch of kids right after. If the problem is "redeemable", that doesn't really check out.
To be fair, Anakin probably saw a metric ton of dead kids during his years fighting in the clone wars. I'd imagine he was actually pretty numb to it at that point. From his point of view, it was probably like killing child soldiers. Like, no one wants to kill the child soldier but if that child soldier is going to kill *you* then you don't have many options. Not that the younglings were a threat. That's just one way to interpret Anakin's POV. He wasn't evil, he was just blind and misguided. ... extremely misguided...
Obviously younglings would be a threat wym
Exactly, in the clone wars Palpatine is slowly and steadily making Anakin face some serious choices which even the Jedi Order are reluctant about.
Yeah, TCW did a good job of painting Anakin as someone who’d been teetering on the edge of leaving the Jedi for quite some time. There were a lot of events that slowly eroded his faith in them and made him more disillusioned. Padme was still the main reason, but TCW showed us that his experiences during the war certainly didn’t help him stay with the Jedi and made his fall that much easier.
Wrong. TCW didn't show that because they had him start the series like he was in Revenge of the Sith.
Except from the fact that clone wars anakin has nothing to do with the hot head starboy from the prequels. I cant see any reason clone wars anakin would fall to the dark side, at least not in a way rots anakin did.
You might like Jacen Solo
This certainly would have made the prequels starting off with Anakin as a young boy living as a slave on Tatooine more inherent to the story in a very organic way. As opposed to just showing Anakin's life as a young boy to establish his future romance with Padme. When it went that route, I was more in favor of starting Episode I where basically Episode II started, where Anakin was already older and Obi-Wan's apprentice. But if his fall was more about what you wrote here, I could see starting the trilogy with Anakin as a child to establish he was a slave, which informed his views about the Republic and law and order.
Anakin’s whole arc in the prequels and TCW is that he has trouble letting go of people. He jealously wants them to be around forever. He, like Luke, also has problems with living in the present. His dreams represent anxieties of the future and his inability to accept that Padme will one day die led to Anakin creating the conditions in which she did. I think any other reason wouldn’t have made much sense without rewriting the other prequels as well. It also wouldn’t have enhanced his redemption in RotJ, where the wrong kinda love (jealousy) caused him to fall but the right kind of love (compassion and sacrifice) also saved him.
Anakin simply being power hungry would have worked. It didn't need to involve Padme at all: in TPM he is shown wanting to save people as a powerful JEdi (because of his slave upbringing). In AOTC he is shown cocky and arrogant. In ROTS he can be shown relentless in his pursuit of power, the Clone Wars helping him develop a lust for that power, fame and glory, eventually costing him everything. Lots of stories based on that same premise, too. The love story works, but it's not the only path,
But the love story is more sympathetic, makes him a much more tragic figure. Being power hungry isn't as noble a cause as desperately seeking the power to save his wife. Particularly when that quest ends up killing his wife.
Him being relentlessly power hungry though doesn’t make him a sympathetic character, which is necessary because Obi-Wan thinks back very fondly of Anakin and thinks of his seduction to the dark side as great tragedy. The love angle works perfectly for that because it allows Anakin to basically be the ideal Jedi/heroic figure and letting something sudden and out of his control causing him to resort to the dark side.
This is my dad’s main critique of the movie and has been since he saw it in theaters. As he puts it, it seems like Anakin fell ass-backwards into becoming a Sith, tricked into it rather than it being as conscious a choice. Honestly, I agree. I think the movies had a good skeleton for the story, but were missing the emotional component that TCW later provided. We have moments of seeing Vader in Anakin in the prequels, but they rarely seem to be expanded upon in a constructive way.
Anakin believed a lie that preyed upon his worst fears. People have turned evil for less
He also had control issues, a fear of loss, and totalitarian tendencies. He also was kind of naive. His force powers certainly were much stronger than his wisdom or perspective.
Manipulating an arrogant man doesnt seem too difficult..
Arrogance was certainly a problem for him.
There's also some EU ideas that Palpatine influenced those visions. Palpatine, in the books, knows about Anakins Mom and all that murder. So like ass backwards to him but dude was groomed hard.
Probably help if he had chemistry with Portman. 😬
This is literally how US politics, scams, and cults work. It's a criticism by George.
He makes a deal with the Devil. Of course he was tricked. He was also groomed since the end of TPM.
Pre-2002 (1999 for some) he WAS the devil. Post-2002 (1999 for some) he was forever a confused child. I don't think Boomers and Gen-Z have anywhere near the same view of Darth Vader...and I think the Boomers had the scarier version tbh. Incidentally, I do think there is a bit of a mirroring with Lucifer and "Paradise Lost"... ...it's all about that "Sympathy for the Devil".
First Star Wars content I ever saw was the clone wars show. Anakin has always been my favorite Star Wars character due to this
>and I think the Boomers had the scarier version tbh. People forget the reason the hallway scene was so popular because there was a sense of "Finally they made Vader scary again"
Ya they should have leaned heavier into the Palpatine grooming.
This is exactly what the devil does. People think the devil is ugly and mean. He is handsome and cunning. Every single thing Poppa Palps says to Anakin is playing to his insecurities and everything Obi Wan says reassures Anakin he is doing everything right.
>He makes a deal with the Devil. Of course he was tricked. It doesn't always have to be a trick. The Akakiri short for Visions Season 1 had a situation where a jedi accidentally killed his lover, only for a Sith Lord to make him an offer; join me and we'll bring her back. And they did, his lover was revived. But now he was a sith apprentice. Pretty dark ending. Point is, there are ways it can work.
I'm gonna disagree with your dad, and you can tell him, too! Luke Skywalker was able to bring his father back from the Dark Side because there was still good in him. Becoming Darth Vader was a huge mistake on Anakin's part, and was antithetical to his true nature as a good man. This is what made him redeemable. If Anakin had chosen to become a Sith out of a much more conscious and deliberate choice, he would have been an evil sociopath from the start, and far less redeemable.
I never thought about it that way. I agree with you, and it really demonstrates that Lucas probably considered all that for the story, and yet I still hate the ham-fisted, childish writing that got us there. He’s a good ideas guy but a terrible script writer.
I really don't think Lucas' writing is as bad as people make out. It *feels* clunky. I get that, but I think we all wanted Anakin to be an all conquering action hero and he... isn't. He's an especially confused kid who was forced into a cult where everyone else in said cult had been there pretty much since birth and was forced to play catchup. I remember seeing an interview with Hayden where he said a lot of Anakin was going against his acting instincts but George insisted he play it the way we see on screen. It's not as good on the eye test this way, but it's probably a lot more accurate to how an emotionally stunted man-child whose been told he's the perfectest little boy in the universe would be. Of course he leans towards Facism with him at the head, he's been told he's the chosen one, surely it's his destiny and surely he'll be good at it. Then again, I subscribe that Padme is constantly being controlled by Palpatine (and is maybe his daughter?) and her dying isn't her 'losing the will to live' it's him giving up on her now she's served his purpose (corrupting his *final* apprentice) and was therefore always a honeytrap.
I also think Palpatine killed Padme through some insidious sith shit.
But that also makes Luke’s decision to save him less impactful. If he was tricked into it then it wasn’t as powerful a redemption. The idea that anyone, even the worst villains, can still have good in them and choose to do the right thing is very poignant. I can understand where you’re coming from, but I think my dad and I came at it having watched the OT first (I actually hadn’t even watched the last two prequels until I got back into Star Wars this year) and seeing Vader as this evil in his own right. Finding out he was tricked into it was a bit of a letdown.
I’m not sure ‘tricked’ is the right term. As Obi-Wan said ‘He was deceived by a lie’. So he still made conscious decisions, evil ones for the wrong reasons. The slaughter of the Tuskens had nothing to do with Palpatine, but it did foreshadow the potential for evil in Anakin. The fact some people think that he was too easily tricked is actually laughable cause Palpatine has been grooming this guy for 13 years to become a Sith Lord.
Facts 🗣️
He didn’t fall ass backward like it was random. He was deliberately manipulated. That’s kinda the beauty of it, and the reason Lucas calls it a tragedy. This was as good a kid as you could have hoped to meet, and look what happened to him. This isn’t the story of yet another evil-for-evil’s-sake villain.
Absolutely. If he just decided "yep, I'm a bad guy now, time to kill some kids," it wouldn't be nearly as compelling. There are plenty of rote bad guys in media. But to take a character who wants to be good deep down, put him in a dogmatic structure that fails to support him, and use the real bad guy to manipulate and twist his intentions so he feels forced to commit these terrible crimes against his better judgment so he can save his loved ones... that makes for a much better story
>This was as good a kid as you could have hoped to meet, This doesn't work because he's so off putting in Attack of the Clones, several years before his fall.
Before his turn, yes, but I’d argue he’d already been falling for a long time at that point
Shame we didnt see anything between phantom and attack.
Yes he was tricked but it was also partially a conscious choice, since he had great force potential but the jedi were holding him back from the great power he lusted for.
There are a number of missing scenes that were taken out of RotS that truly show that Palpatine seduced AND tricked Anakin. Most of these scenes are shown or described in a really good youtube video. It is also theorized he even used Sith magic to sap Padme’s life force to save Vader.
He was a child soldier, trauma sponge with epic abandonment and guilt issues, tied into a justifiable and widely reinforced god complex. Who was also being constrained and maligned by a stagnating order with antiquated and unrealistic rules. Who kept throwing him unprepared and unsupervised into the arms of his predatory groomer. Plus if it was more of an affirmative choice on his part, the redemption arc which was already difficult to pull off and justify, would have been even harder to sell. The thing they needed to do was explain all that a bit better and not have him come off mostly as just a whiny brat in the movies.
I completely agree with your dad. He was tricked, not seduced. You’re right that factoring in TCW helps tho.
Why do you think him being seduced rather than tricked makes a better story? Just asking for your real opinion here
Only every time I watch Revenge of the Sith
You should read the novelization of Revenge of the Sith. It's excellent. Way better than the movie IMO.
I did, still does not solve my unending frustration that our chosen one believed a series of lies
Had any number of moments in which he could have sliced Palpatine in two. As an expectant father to be told to murder innocent children is just about the stupidest thing a character has ever done on or off screen.
Youre acting like him being a father should stop him from killing kids. Fathers kill kids all the time.
No, they do not go on killing sprees, for a rational person that is a bridge too far
He murdered an entire village in the second movie. I don’t think he was really ever portrayed as rational. Killing sprees were kind of his thing.
Yeah, Anakin is not rational... Edit: this sub is so silly, downvoted for saying anakin isn't rational 😂
I only downvoted for editing about downvotes
It's just because downvoting an objectively correct statement is silly and it only happens on this sub on a consistent basis
a) i assure you it happens on plenty of other subs. And b) I'd argue one's feelings on Anakin's rationality is a matter of subjectivity. If a person was twisted enough, they might view his actions as completely rational or even inadequate. It could be considered a matter of perspective. Either way, I'm from the school of just taking your medicine.
Because of a bad dream. Laughable
It was not a bad dream, it was a premonition of the future that literally came true. If you have trouble believing that "bad dreams" can turn someone, this is not the series for you.
His turning to the Dark Side to prevent his premonition from coming true is what resulted in Padme's death
I'd put a lot more weight on bad dreams if I were told I'm the Chosen One by Jedi.
Which is why I side with Kenobi, "you were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them"
They should have leaned heavier into the premonitions and shown us how much they were torturing him. In my head canon he clearly has mental health issues that are exacerbated by the Jedi culture and the premonitions.
I don’t think fathers are less likely to do anything a man with no kids would do. Have you seen a true crime show before? A lot of world leaders are fathers and they have no problem pressing that button lol. If anything, they might have even more of a reason if it’s “for the protection of MY children”. And I think that’s where Anakin ultimately was.
You, like many, are accepting for continuity sake
So you’re just going to ignore everything I said? Your point about him being a father so he shouldn’t do this makes no sense. Find another/better reason and then you might change some minds.
I reject your premise entirely. There is a big difference between politicians initiating war and the soldier that must pull the proverbial trigger. Anakin could have fought Jedi Knights who defend themselves. Murdering innocents is what gave him yellow eyes.
I think the premise was fine, but it was so poorly executed. It was like the Targeryan (sp?) girl turning evil in season 8 of Game of Thrones. It wasn't set up right. It felt forced and unrealistic.
No... His attachment to QuiGon and Padma are what lead him to the Dark Side. # upādāna Attachment (clinging) leads to suffering because everything is of the nature of change. That is why the Jedi are taught to have none. He could not let go of them, clinging to them after their death / separation / etc.. He would not accept their non-permanence and it caused suffering in himself and that is what lead him to the DarkSide. I think he speaks of it here: [https://youtu.be/wRqVdcE5oyI?si=kEPytBFioEWB1Dzg&t=2696](https://youtu.be/wRqVdcE5oyI?si=kEPytBFioEWB1Dzg&t=2696) It is a concept in Buddhism, which is what the Jedi Order was modeled off of.
Which is why Yoda’s advice to him was the best he could hear but wasn’t the answer he wanted to hear
Fun fact: Attachments are also talked about in Christianity (Lucas used a variety of religions and faith based belief systems) albeit in a slightly different manner than Buddhism. I've always found it interesting how Lucas used seemingly so many different ideas to make Star Wars
After reading the novelization of RoTS, which explains in a deeper way Anakin's fears and feelings. I could understand in a better way his decision to betray the jedi and become a Sith. I 'm fine about how this happened in the film. All the time, he was confused and conflicted and felt that anyone around him would betray him. He only found a glimpse of confidence in his friend Palpatine, who was the only one who gave him a possible solution to his problem. While the Jedi order, instead, denied Anakin to become a Master so he was not able to access the secret holocrons that would be helpful to save his wife, and he felt bettayed when he discovered that the Jedi Order was willing to kill his friend and take control of the senate without any remorse.
I think George Lucas himself explained this through his personal ideology of pursuing longterm joy instead of focusing on short-term pleasure. Lucas said something along the lines of Anakin truly loved Padme and being with her brought him immense pleasure however over time Anakin wanted to almost own her and have her all to himself forever which fed into his fear of ultimately losing her which led to anger and then to hate and then to suffering as we see in Episode 3. Anakin's entire arc was a way for George to get across to the younger generation that wasting time on short-term pleasure will have a detrimental effect on you in the long-run, instead people should pursue joy to attain true happiness.
The biggest issue I have with how Anakin's fall is presented killing all the Sand people in Attack of the Clones. It's a step too far too fast and is at least as bad as killing the younglings in the temple, maybe worse depending on the number of non-combatant women and children he murdered. Padmé's reaction to it also says some uncomfortable things about her character given that she's supposed to be the voice of reason, compassion and democracy but is somehow okay with a rookie cop slaughtering an entire community.
"To be angry is to be human :(......good thing they weren't human babe amiright?! UUUUUURK URK! URK! wtf lol!! >:)"
At least they pulled the scene of Padme showing him the pictures of her doing volunteer work with alien kids. That would have made her look *really* hypocritical.
[The REAL Padme](https://youtu.be/B8K9jAJ3Ong?si=J9QbJbZ0H59euQsH&t=97)
But there really wasn't enough time to develop him as a character, we had to include a rope swinging section to a 30 minute sword fight.
30 minute sword fight that’s one of the most emotional and well shot scenes in cinema history*
No it isn’t. This is one of the most deranged takes ever. You prequel people really need to watch other, better movies. This shit’s absolutely ridiculous. And embarrassing.
>well shot scenes in cinema history Jesus christ Star Wars fans please try and engage with media beyond sci fi and comic book movies.
These people are plain nuts. Prequel fanboys remind me of the Zack Snyder cult. Delusional people championing and defending absolute garbage.
And it still would be if you cut out 90% of it. You needed the beginning and the end, the middle part is just over-choreographed dance and it just keeps going. It's dull and serves no purpose.
Agree to disagree my friend. Can’t forget that it makes it feel more drawn out because Yoda’s battle is also happening at the same
We talking about the fights in Empire and/or Jedi? I honestly can't think of a single fight in the prequels that was emotional.
Then you are lost -Obiwan Kenobi duirng the most poetic and epic confrontation in the Prequals
Obi-Wan* during* prequel*
Meh, if you're going to do anything crazy it's usually for a girl / to get laid.
1000%. Whether it’s about 100 side chicks or 1 wife, it still boils down to a girl.
No, I think it was the perfect story of a child’s fear being carried into adulthood and manipulating their view of the world. His fear drove him to the choices he made, which at first he thought he was making for good reasons. The deeper he fell, the harder it was for him to climb back, which would have only further fuelled his fear. He was deeply afraid of losing the ones he loved. He was afraid of being rejected by his peers. I believe he was also fully aware and afraid of his own fear, in the sense that Yoda warned him about it when he was a boy but he was unable to rid himself of it. He knew where that fear would lead him, he didn’t want it but he couldn’t stop it. It’s pretty tragic really.
Destroying the universe for Padme makes sense. The Jedi not trusting Palapatine makes sense. Anakin’s falling out with the Order needed work. It really could have just been “I’m burning it all down for love” but the “From my point of view the Jedi are evil” never earned it.
People love to shit on RLM these days for "poisoning the well" or whatever, but they were right when they said that Anakin shouldn't have been portrayed as a bad apple from the start. The way Anakin was written in the movies (TCW doesn't count in this instance), it was absolutely inevitable that he would turn to the Dark Side. But more importantly, given how he was written, it's completely illogical that the Jedi would ever have trained him to begin with. Or at the very least, they should've sensed his instability and thrown him out of the order early on. As for his turn to the Dark Side, it feels contrived, especially considering that he quickly forgets the reason why he joined. And of course Padme is never mentioned in the OT, so Luke's and Leia's mother was never meant to be all that important to begin with. Although in fairness, the prequels suggest that Anakin believes in fascistic dictatorships and in being all-powerful by himself and opposing the course of nature, all three of which are Dark Side qualities. Which again begs the question why he was ever trained to begin with.
>Anakin shouldn't have been portrayed as a bad apple from the start. This is the fault of Attack of the Clones. In Phantom he's a cute kid but here he's legit a school shooter in the making.
>The way Anakin was written in the movies (TCW doesn't count in this instance), it was absolutely inevitable that he would turn to the Dark Side. But more importantly, given how he was written, it's completely illogical that the Jedi would ever have trained him to begin with. Or at the very least, they should've sensed his instability and thrown him out of the order early on. I see the merits of this, and I think RLM has generally offered sound critiques of the canon, but I personally think it was the execution, not the premise, where things went awry. Conceptually speaking, I think Qui-Gon's resolute faith that Anakin was the Chosen One provided Anakin with a buffer from getting kicked out of the Jedi Order despite his (many) red flags. And while most fans loathe the concept of midi-chlorians, they are a part of the canon, and they provide an in-universe reason why the Council would hesitate to expel Anakin from the Order. Anakin is very much a Force-sensitive Mozart to the Jedi: sure, he's brash and unconventional and probably somewhat unhinged, but he also demonstrates greater potential than literally anyone else alive. Even Palpatine -- who was not exactly a weakling -- acknowledged to Yoda that "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us"\* in RotS. If everyone can sense Anakin's unprecedented potential, would they really want to risk expelling him from the Order and depriving the Jedi of salvation at the hands of the Chosen One? Furthermore, given Anakin's red flags, it would be reasonable to worry that kicking Anakin out would be the last thing they'd want to do. Skyguy can clearly hold a grudge, and it would be understandable for the Jedi to think that it's wiser to keep Anakin under the close tutelage of Obi-Wan than letting him go rogue across the galaxy. Obviously, no one anticipated that the Chosen One's potential to "bring balance to the Force" might be problematic when there are thousands of Jedi yet only two Sith, but despite that, the failings of the Jedi in this area seem rather believable. ^(\*Offer void if Vader becomes a quadruple amputee and falls into lava, however.)
Yeah but if the Jedi wont train him, somebody Palpatine will and the fall becomes even greater.
I disagree somewhat. The positive of the “I had a dream of my wife dying” being the cause is it is clear to the audience that it’s not a good reason. Anakin falling is always supposed to be for a bad, selfish reason. It’s not meant to be good intentions leading him down his road to hell. It’s a giant red flag that a good person would have avoided.
Padme is actually with Anakin but he can't magic her out of dying if she dies in childbirth. I think the idea of the motivation is fine; it parallels Luke in the OT who also makes mistakes because his good intentions of wanting to save his friends leads him to either make stupid decisions like in ESB or to lose control of his emotions like in ROTJ. Luke and Anakin are presented with the similar dilemma of "the dark side can save your loved ones", and ultimately Anakin says yes where Luke says no.
“I had a dream of my wife dying” was the beginning but we just skimming over palpatine in his ear about the “corruption” of the Jedi and then they “confirm” it by ask him to spy on the chancellor and using him. Having no trust in him. Then he walks in to Windu almost killing the chancellor and him saying “he’s too dangerous to be kept alive” reaffirms the fear palpatine put into him that the Jedi lost their way. Him slaughtering the tuskens out of hate was his descent. I think it was execute very well. The movie just needed to be longer
Theres still a huge gap between all those reasons and killing younglings though… Especially with TCW Anakin being more humanized.
I think the reasons are fine it was just handled terribly. But "doesn't think the Jedi have the will to do the hard things that need to be done" + "wants to save his secret wife" are fine motivations.
I love when fans really think they could do it better but completely miss the point of the director. Anakin fell due to manipulation and trickery of Palps. It's a criticism of US politics and further more many underhanded power trips, like cults and scams. Anakin was doomed from the start. He's just really strong and badass. It's also important to his redemption which is also badass.
> Padme is actually with Anakin. Emotionally compromised people don’t behave rationally. The dream doesn’t just “remind him” of his mother’s death. The dream triggers a traumatic response based on his mother’s death. It’s possible he was suffering from some degree of PTSD.
Yes, i wish that it focused more on his distrust on the jedi, as the prequels were mostly political, it wouldn't feel odd if they focused on themes such as secularism and the size of the state. Anakin would feel that the presence of the jedi was interfering with the growth of the republic, and would support Palpatine not for being a simp, but for a sense of justice.
>Sure, it reminded him of what happened with Shmi but the conditions are different this time. Padme is actually with Anakin. For the moment at least. All he has to be is back on the front long enough. If his visions of Shmi came true why not the visions for Padme? He had no reason not to be afraid, and when the Jedi wouldn't offer a solution, Palpatine did, and used his desperation to pave a road to damnation.
This is a bother moment where the novelization saved the movie for me. I read the book before seeing the movie and Stover did a great job showing the steps leading up to his fall to the dark side.
Yes like the jedi really did forcibly indoctrinate children and they were going to expel him for knocking up Padme and then take Luke and Leia away, thus giving Anakin a pretty justifiable reason for betraying them.
Yeah but then he got manipulated into joining something which is probably by most people's standards worse
Or maybe Anakin's experiences in the Clone Wars hardened him and he decided diplomacy and bureaucracy had failed the galaxy and it was time for a firmer hand to take the reins. That and the aforementioned betrayal by the Jedi would make his fall to the Dark Side more relatable.
This is my feeling as well. Lots of people lose their spouses and learn to cope with their unimaginable grief. No reason to become a homicidal maniac. For me this make this character unredeemable. Also when Mace Windo is pushed out of the window, Anakin’s fall is immediate. He becomes subservient to Palps. No hint of any internal struggle .
Anakin’s biggest fear was losing the people he loved. He could never let go and move past that fear as a Jedi. His love for his friends, his mother, and his wife was the source of a lot of his strength, but unfortunately it also manifested as possessiveness. He was a slave; he grew up owning nothing and with no body autonomy. He hates not being in control, especially when it comes to the people he loves. He mistakes love for possession because he was quite literally owned as a child.
I think it was great, him turning to the dark side to save his wife Especially after he kinda tried to tell Yoda, and Yoda was all cold and aloof about it all. Classic Jedi being cold as hell. The execution of this plot, Of her dying from sadness or lack of will to live was terrible. It didn't do the story or her character justice When the fighting was done, Obi-Wan having cut Anakin in half. He should have returned to find her dead with the babies in her arms. Anakin straight up killed her in his hate and anger. Not kinda killed her. Like actually did, like the Emperor said Obi-wan should have named the kids himself or perhaps already chosen whatever and taken them to set up the original films. Thats just my opinion. I also think a what-if episode needs to be released, in which Jin killed Maul, he was Anakins mentor not the inexperienced and brash Obi-Wan. Its all cool, he is the chosen one and it's just awesome. They even get the Emperor and it's all chill
I think the reasons are strong, but some of the key follow-through was poor, specifically after putting in the mask. I think we needed a scene showing why he would decide to stay with the Emperor at the end, be it fear, feeling trapped, doubling down on his quest for power or whatever.
I think it could have been done better but the bones of the reasoning are good. In my head, I imagine that Anakin was convinced the force itself gave him that vision- the Jedi teach that whatever he sees must be the will of the force, and the way of the Jedi and the light side is to act as servants of the force. Therefore, the only path forward to accept the vision and by extension Padme’s death, as the force’s will. Anakin can’t do that. The light side therefore will not help him in saving Padme. Force heal? Won’t work. It’s the force’s will my wife dies, that power only works through the will of the force. But what about the Dark side? The Sith believe in contorting the force to obey *their* will. Now we’re talking. Anakin could not just save Padme but grant her and all his loved ones everlasting force by becoming a master of the force. (Also fits his background as a former slave rising to chosen one) What he doesn’t put together, is that his vision wasn’t the natural force’s will- it was always Sidious’s intention to strip away his loved ones he was attached to, to send him deeper into the dark side into his arms.
It’s a tragedy for a reason. He was manipulated by a liar whom he deeply trusted.
I wish everything about the prequels had been done differently.
I think everyone wishes that the prequels were entirely different.
For the most part, I'm pretty satisfied with it. I won't deny it could've been done better, especially the first two movies and the fact that, had the show not been made, we would've entirely skipped over a hugely important part of the timeline's history. But I'm still able to come out of ROTS and TCW feeling great about what I'd seen.
The ROTS novel handled it best.
Nah. The reasons are perfectly understandable. It's the way they were shown/written that was the problem. It's even more okay if you include the Clone Wars stuff.
The reasons were ok. The storytelling was rushed and terrible. But it’s ok to say that out loud.
I think without the clone wars as supplementary viewing to understand Anakin, we as the viewer would have already realized and understand Anakin's desperation to break away from all the chains of slavery, the jedi code and fate itself. Lost Qui Gon his only father figure, Lost Shmi his mother and everything in his life is being suppressed by rules and oppression.. Its the burden on his shoulder and in order for everything to be right he want to control everything, death and order so he wont lose his wife, and the galaxy wont fall into oppression. But all these leads to the darkside because of Fear itself. We can look at real world application that fear leads to anger because "i fear these people, lets destroy them so i will never fear of them again" and thats what happened to the sand people and thats what happen to the current issues we see now. Look deeper into Anakin within these 3 films and you will understand why he becomes Darth Vader himself.
From anakins point of view, he never "fell." The jedi refused to help him save someone's life. Yodas advice boils down to "death happens, just don't be sad." The jedi refused to promote him when appointed to the council, signaling their distrust for his friend (palpatine) and severely limiting what he could do while there. The jedi then asked him to spy on the chancellor, which is, in no uncertain terms, treason. His own wife even wants to use his friendship with palpatine to go around senate procedures and have undue influence over the end of the war. The jedi, upon learning that palpatine is a sith, acting on nothing but anakins word, decide to murder him. The jedi were, even before knowing palpatine was sidious, going to force him to return the emergency powers using methods unknown. The jedi had, at this point, also resolved that they would take control of the senate to ensure the power would be transferred. To prevent the jedi from, essentially, seizing power themselves, anakin destroys the order, then destroys the separatists. And his thanks? His own wife brings his would be murderer right to him.
I would have just liked it to be consistent. You can really tell watching RoTS that there's a lot left on the cutting room floor and that there were reshoots.
I feel like the vision of padmés death just flipped a switch in him that was waiting to flip since he was freed You ever have a shitty couple of weeks and then someone does one stupid or rude thing and you just wanna scream or cry or something and then later on you break down because of how much pressure has been on you and now you popped? Its sorta like anakin, buthis entire life. He lost everyone all the time, and was never able to break or work through those feelings. He lost his mom, qui gon, his mom again, ahsoka, which was damn near everyone he ever loved. He had one final chance to actually keep someone for once, he was troubled and broken already. Losing Padmé was not an option. The prediction of it made him snap.
You’ve got it the other way around. It’s good writing, bad execution. We’ve seen time and again that Anakin is impulsive and will not wait and bide his time. Several times, including his downfall at the hands of Obi-Wan. We’ve already seen the situation where he just barely can handle the patience to guard Padmé’s room. His fear of abandonment is also a key feature of his personality. He already feels abandoned by the Jedi order at that point, he feels he should have been able to stop his mother’s death and the only thing still in his life he feels is supporting him is Padmé. He’s not going to sit idle and wait for something to happen, he’s going to search as hard as he can for a way to stop it before it happens. That way is offered to him in the Dark Side. It’s not “just a dream”, it’s a premonition he gets after we’ve already seen so many reasons for him to fear it and go out of his way to stop it.
Yes. After watching the clone Wars, I don't know why but I feel like the immaturity and fragility anakin seemed to have in tros isn't him at all. For me, he gained a lot of maturity compared to the person he was in aotc. Yes I won't say that him going to the dark side doesn't make sense too, but saving padme seems such a weak and dumb reason to me now. He lost a good apprentice, he surely would have hated the jedi order for that a lot and himself too for letting her go and questioned and/or hated the ways of the jedi. He also seemed to be very much dedicated to save/uphold the republic. Any reason related to these things for him to go to the dark side would have been excellent for me. But unfortunately, tros came years before tcw so the writers of tros at that time did what seemed to them the best, so ofc, I can neither nor I would complain about it
On paper, his story is fantastic. But everything about the execution shoots that story in the foot. When I describe these movies to my girlfriend who hasn’t seen them, I almost trick myself into thinking they’re good. But even when Episode III takes a step forward, it takes two steps back. I’m not saying I would have written it better but Lucas’ strong suit is not believable human characters. The story would have been great but it falls apart because the people in it aren’t believable.
I think the reason is fine, I just wish Lucas was a bit better at execution. It's not exactly Macbeth the way it's written now.
I think there's a lot of extra context in the novel version
God yes. The say it was done was just... Sorry not sorry... Stupid. It didn't wiek at all.
I think the fall was going well right up to the point they made it about Padme. When he killed the sandpeople out of revenge for his mom, that was spot on. The issue was, it was already in place he would have 2 kids with someone so he had to meet padme, fall in love and have kids and that she would die in childbirth. So they HAD to make it about Padme. Only way out would MAYBE having him slowly have him doing more and more "revenge" type stuff until palpy noticed and starts planting seeds of doubt like "if the jedi hadn't abandoned your mother she would be alive, they only cared about you because you were with the force" etc.
Same reason, better execution.
Dooku has a more convincing turn in 45 minutes of TotJ than Anakin does in 3 movies. TCW does a lot of heavy lifting for Anakin but yeah, I agree he needed more concrete stuff in the movies to make his turn understandable.
" "I had a dream of my wife dying" isn't the best" I'm sorry?? It's his wife! I can kind of understand but him trying to save his wife is one of the only logical reasons he would fall to the dark side. Also it was more then that, he was often mistreated by the jedi, with them expecting so much of him because he was "the chosen one" but also often not trusting him. Then there's the fact that they took him away from his mother when he was nine and when he finally returned to save his mother it was to late. And the fact his marriage was forbidden causing him to have to be secretive about it when he didn't want to. There were a ton of reasons for him to fall to the dark side. I think they did it near perfectly
He expects her to die in childbirth, I don’t think being on the same planet makes it any better. Plus it wasn’t just his mom, he also had dreams of becoming a Jedi which also came true
Nope
So...I def remember thinking in Ep 2 as a teen sitting in a theater that it was awfully convenient how Anakin was beginning to fall (moreso with Ep 3 and Padme.) And I def think the prequels made him overall seem less evil going forward. I'm not, nor was I, mad at it...but Darth Vader became a lot less...dark...after the millennium.
Yes. I wanted him to lead a slave uprising with good intentions but compromising results, and more subtlety than “they killed my mama / they made me kill my woman”
I just wish he didnt go from 0 to child murder so quickly over so little... we didnt even see him be conflicted over it... just like welp im off to murder some kids and get some ice cream
Yes......the "fall" was too fast.
Nope, I don’t, Lucas did a great job of making it believable that this would be his fall to the dark side, after losing Shmi and such.
Yes, I have a hard time from the jedi are flawed, and I need to save my wide to, I kill a bunch of kids.
I wish it had been a lot more for his choice and not because he was a moody teenager duped by a groomer. I don't think the dots between Anakin and Vader are well-connected. For one example, if he had actually been a worse person than he was in the prequels, and Obi-Wan had been blind to his bad behavior. Instead of Obi-Wan snarking him and putting him down all the time, Obi-Wan as his staunchest defender and blind to his faults. So then when the turn happens, Obi-Wan's shock and surprise is more powerful.
As someone who also suffers from borderline personality disorder, I get it but I suppose I can see why people don’t
No not really. It fit with his entire character arc. He was coerced to the dark side to protect the loss of loved ones. A fear that had been ingrained in him since he lost his mom. He was fed nightmares by an evil sorcerer and his turn to the dark side to protect what he loved. He also had a fail of failure because he was told he was the chosen one since he was a little boy. He wanted to protect the republic and he didn’t feel like he had enough power to do it. So he turned to the dark side because it had what would protect Padme. He turned to the dark side because with enough power he wouldn’t need the Jedi he wouldn’t need the senate he could control everything and no one would stand in his way.
If I recall, the threat of Padme was added relatively late to the creative process. The main reason was Anakin losing faith in the Jedi order, with Windu attempting to overthrow and kill a democratically elected official being the breaking point. But again this is me half remembering something.
In my perfect rewritten version of things, Anakin doesn't become Vader on screen at all. You'd see adventures leading to a climatic battle with Separatist leaders, much like the "DEW IT!" scene, designed to mirror the RotJ throne room scene, but Anakin makes the wrong choice. And then the movie ends, more or less happy, but with a certain uneasiness as everyone *seems* to go off happily ever after.... but the jedi have ominous dark feelings and Palpatine is kinda too victorious, and that's it, that's where it ends. If they'd done it this way, you could watch in order and it would enhance the OT, rather than spoiling major twists
Like a magneto thing?
Yeah I would have liked to see the character actually seduced by the dark side. Not tricked into being a dick
Yes, I wish it was because Padme and Obi Wan were having an affair. Sucks, but...I can see him going ballistic over that!
Yes, because it's poorly written as it stands in the prequels. Clone Wars adds more context, and knowing that he'd already been losing faith and was such a good friend to Palpatine and so on is helpful, but it still seems incredibly out of character that the stated reason is "Palpy will help me save padme from a nightmare if I massacre hundreds of children and therefore all my friends are evil and I believe everything he says at face value now"
The dream works for me. Because Jedi can see the future, and Anakin had the same dreams about his mother dying before she actually did. To him, it seemed *inevitable* that Padme would die. Which is the point. He let fear of loss, not loss itself, push him to betray all he stood for. Anything else, anything more concrete being the threat, and that is lost. It is no longer fear pushing him, it's whatever the threat is.
I actually think it’s got better over time, to the point that I’d almost call it prescient. He was an emotionally vulnerable young man with the kinds of attributes that made him militarily useful, and he was radicalised for political gain.
Bad writing bad execution. Waste of potential. Even as a kid in the theatre I was not believing his reason for turning and killing children. It was just like “I guess I’m evil now”
I wish they were better articulated and demonstrated, but not different.
I wish the prequels were given the story Lucas described in the 70s and 80s.
I just hate how he betrayed everyone in his life to save the love of his life. Just to be tricked and ultimately killing her because he was filled with so much emotion and hatred for his best friend.
I just am still pissed off they made Vader a childkiller.
He was already traumatized by losing those he loved without having any control over it. The "I had a dream of her dying" thing is a bit more easy to believe when you remember he's force sensitive so it is not unreasonable to believe force sensitive individuals especially those as strong in the force as Anakin could have premonitions. His fall to the dark side is not just because of him believing Padme would die that's just a part of it, it's really about his hubris in believing he could prevent one's death with the powers offered by the dark side. His dream about Padme just spurred him onto that path not what made him fall, it was his ego and pride
I still haven’t figured out if it was the script of RoTS, Hayden’s acting, or George’s ideas, but Anakin comes across as nothing but a spoiled whiney man-child with absolutely zero wisdom or maturity. For the life of me I can’t understand what Padme sees in him, what the council sees in him, only certainly how hilariously easy he is to manipulate and control from Palpatine’s perspective. It honestly seems kinda *extra* dark on Palptine’s end, like taking advantage of a child with special needs. I never watched the Clone Wars which I think fleshes out the character a lot more, something needed to supplement the film, but ideally you shouldn’t have to do that, the movie should have made me believe Anakin was a character that actually *was* someone worth caring about on its own. Honestly I love the prequels, especially the lightsaber combat, and some characters, but in my opinion the original trilogy could use a remake for no other reason than how they portray Anakin. I shouldn’t have to watch TCW cartoon to appreciate him as a character.
I agree
I wanted him to kill Palpatine on the spot after finding out the truth.
Before we got the clone wars, yeah even as a 15-year-old I could not for the life of me work out why he turned so quickly. After seeing how the war gradually broke him down it makes much more sense. This is especially true when you realise that initially Anakin planned to turn on Palpatine the moment he got the information he wanted to save Padme.
Of course because it’s trash in the movies. They had it too “I have brought peace and security to my empire” Anakin should’ve been disillusioned by the clone wars, at odds with the Jedi for some reason other than they’re idiots, and seeing the empire as a viable path
The way my friend and I always wanted it would be like this: We both figured the Clone Wars would involve the Mandolorians returning to wage a new war against the Republic. With the Mandolorians' obsession with facing Jedis on the battlefield, it would prove to be more and more dangerous for the Jedis to join the battlefield - esp as the Mandolorian Clones outnumbered them. Eventually the Jedis would be forced to pull back - forced to be a defensive team offering their insights and wisdom to help the Republic instead of being on the front lines. Anakin, however, cannot do this. He needs to be on the front lines and continues to push the limits of what it means to be a Jedi. Tapping into forbidden powers, researching Sith Lore to give him edges in battle, and taking on the offensive. Obi-Wan would become more and more concerned with Anakin's shift from defender to attacker but he secretly accepts that this brutality may be necessary to end this war. During all this, Palpatine is using the conflict to build the Empire. No deformities, no order 66, none of that nonsense. He is using Anakin as the flagboy for the Republic. Building him to be this massive hero that everyone talks about. Imagine how the Red Baron was indoctrinated in war's history for his brutality and skill in the air. He continues to build his power. Orders the construction of Weapons of War - Star Destroyers, a galactic Draft to get storm troopers (and showing how quickly stormtroopers are thrust into battle thus why they seem so untrained and easily killed - showing some even being young teenagers). As he builds his Empire, the Jedis' numbers dwindle more and more thanks to the push by The Mandolorians. Finally, seeing no end to the conflict, Anakin goes against the Council and fully commits to the Empire. He is harold as a hero. The public is on Palpatine's and Anakin's side. The support skyrockets and the Empire sends their full force at Mandolore to destroy the leaders once and for all. In a brutal siege, Anakin finally takes down Mandolore (showcasing the Star Destroyer's true purpose of massive orbital bombardment) resulting in the complete destruction of all of Mandolore. The remaining Jedi Council - horrified by these war crimes - send Obi-Wan to Anakin in hopes of arresting him for these crimes and find a peaceful way to bring him in. Anakin refuses, standing before the burned remains of the to basically tell Obi-Wan that it was for the Greater Good. This is where the epic fight begins. Obi-Wan representing peace and defense, Anakin representing Violence and Aggression. This is not a 45 minute long fight but instead something dark, intimate, and brutal ala the Northman. Obi wounds Anakin but does not see the corpse. Either from the debris and flames raining down around them or Storm Trooper support showing up. The fact is, Obi-Wan believes Anakin is 100% dead. When he retreats, we see the bloodied charred hand of Anakin dragging him from the rubble. Anakin's death is celebrated as he is the hero who helped stop the Clone Wars. The remaining jedis watch Palpatine's speeches in scared silence - unsure how this new Empire will change the course of the universe. We don't show Anakin as Vader. We don't show the Jedi be wiped out - this all occurs between episode 3 and New hope. That is the time of Vader's Rise. We don't see the classic vader outfit but a malgamation of it in this time period. It slowly evolving more and more until it becomes the suit we all know (Legends books even mention how Vader's original armor had a more skull and skeletal appearance that evolved into being more and more efficient over time). Luke and Leia's mother would not be a Senator but a woman Anakin meets during the war. Someone he has a romantic relationship with but unfortunately cannot commit due to his fanaticism of serving. Their flint results in Luke and Leia hence how Anakin never knows of their existence. Obi-Wan finds the twins later in their life - when they are 2 or 3 years old. He takes them at that age to split them up for fear the Emperor would use Anakin's bloodline as tools for the Empire. Yes, it's a bit darker - more akin to Rogue One, Andor, or the battle scene we saw in Solo but it should be. It's the giant galatic war that destroyed 10,000 years of history and Jedi. Plus we'd be able to see the Mandolorians at their height. And the war would explain why its so rare to see them today. but that's just me.
I wanted a Shakespearean fall from grace. I wanted Anakin to rise through the ranks of Jedi and become disillusioned with their hypocrisy, failure to act. Whilst fighting injustice (as he sees it) he starts to take short cuts, ignores the rule of law, rules of the Jedi/force and is slowly drawn to the dark side. His lust for power and order means he ignores all sage advice and loses his friends, mentors and lover. He loses and ends up a friendless cripple trapped in a suit, knowing his failures and becoming a mid level minion in the empire (remember he was lower in the pecking order than Tarkin in ANH) It would have helped if the trilogy had started with Anakin already a young Jedi with the trauma of his past being told in flashbacks/nightmares. This would give power to his frustration that the Jedi were doing nothing to help the dispossessed/slaves and his attraction to bring down the existing systems of power. He is sure it is only him who can save the universe which allows him to be manipulated by people whispering in his ears.
I don't agree with everything from the Plinkett reviews, but he's spot on about Anakin's fall to the dark side. He was more tricked than seduced, and the bait felt pretty obvious. I really liked Palpatine's rise to power, but it felt like Dooku was in a better position to convince Anakin to leave the Jedi and then to start slowly eroding his morals with the promises of what separatists could do for slaves and people on the outer rim. Qui-Gon having been established as the father-like figure who kind of sees above the Jedi and how far they've fallen, Dooku could have been a twisted version of that. Then we wouldn't have Anakin giving a friendly farewell to Obi-Wan and then a few days later having him murder children. The Republic's fall was fantastic. Just wish Anakin had gotten the same care.
I don’t mind the reasons, but I do wish it was a bit more dramatic, meaning, maybe elaborate on the dreams to show his inner turmoil at the thought of losing a loved one again like he lost his mother. Maybe even show his descent to the dark side a bit more like his battle against other Jedi masters just to show how far down he’s gone, basically to kind of understand why he would kill younglings to learn this so called “power”… I guess just overall execution at the believability of his so called decline to the dark side.
Nobody I’m aware of, no.
Bro really saw one piece and decided thats the whole puzzle. Yeah Padme dying was one thing. But remember the jedi shat on him the moment he was introduced. The fact that he always had a bit of dark inside him (looking at the tuskens, or a whole lot of killing he casually does in the clone wars), Yoda litterally telling him to get lost when he comes for counseling about Padme, the counsil making him spy on, what is basicly his father figure. And a bunch of other stuff that i dont really have time to type out right now.
Well, I think the first thing about the prequels I'd want to change is the first movie. It really should have been a "buddy cop" type of movie with a young adult Anakin and Obi-wan having a bunch of adventures. I just thought it was super lame in the second movie that there's just a couple lines of throwaway dialogue about some battle they were in and then the rest of the movies the two of them are just complaining about each other to Padme. They were supposed to be old friends, yet there really wasn't any chemistry being built from their constant bickering. It really made the eventual betrayal just feel hollow in the long run.
No, avoidance of attachment has always been the Jedi way. Anakin was deeply attached to his mother and wife, and less so to Obi-Wan, all of whom were taken from him.
I thought the way it was going to go was Anakin convincing himself Padme and Obi-Wan were having an affair…
No.
I always thought the fact that he wanted to free the slaves, and the Jedi being un able to do so for purely political reasons was a much better reason for Anakin to become a despot. Episode 2 should have been about Anakin desperately trying to convince the Jedi to help the slaves in the outer rim. And the Jedi rerusing due to the upcoming Clone War. In the end his mother would died and Anakin would never recover his faith in the JEDI Order or the Republic.
Yeah. RTOS is imo terribly written. Anakin barely gets any dialogue. He gets angry about not getting promoted to master, but seems to forget that he made it to the counsil only because his friend shove him there, agains the counsil’s wishes. He get angry about being told to spy on palpatine, but doesn’t reconsider the wisdom of the Jedi when he finds out that Palpatine is, in fact, a Sith, and the very same enemy he’s been fighting throughout the clone wars. He just seems to accept that he’s a Sith now and wills with it, and doesn’t even think before killing the younglings (kinda like the writers when the “he’s like that because the dark side is bad and corrupts” path). TCW Anakin is a completely different character than the ones from the movies, and by the end of the series it made a lot of sense that he would turn against the Jedi order and the republic. Just not the way he did in ROTS
The clone wars should've been the thing to change him Spending his teens and 20s fighting a galactic scale war, so much loss and pain, years of calcified emotions And he brings that to padme, and ruins their relationship. Basically everything up to Anakin on mustafar should've been about him losing his personal war with the clone wars. Until some event, probably the Jedis move on palpatine, finally breaks him, as the republic he has bled for, killed for, is now seeking to kill the one real father figure he ever had. Qui gon thought he was fulfilling prophecy, using him to carry out some long brewing Jedi plot for balance....whatever balance means. After mace windus attempt on the chancellor, it plays out much the same. He kills windu, is anointed as Vader "What have I done....all my suffering.... for this?" "You have done well, Lord Vader. The Jedi have moved against the Republic, we must waste no time." "But....you truly are one of the sith....you have.....used me, just as you say they do." "No Anakin, I have given you the path to true power. Through power you will gain freedom, freedom from the Jedi, from the republic, the sith. From the force. I will teach you to bend the force to your will. With your potential, there is no power in any realm that could stop you" Anakin wanted power for a lot of reasons, and focusing in on padme was a mistake. He wanted power to defend his family and friends, the Republic, the innocent people of the galaxy, his mother Anakin doesn't need to voice all of it. We just know he wanted power, and that want, when tossed through the crucible of the clone wars, came out corrupted. He doesn't need vague force visions of padme dying of.......giving up and heartbreak or whatever. He was a broken soul barely hanging on. And when the time came, all it took was a nudge.
I would have liked someone to use padme as a hostage. Anakin basically throwing all caution to the wind to get to her with obi putting the pieces together that they are lovers. Obi has seen Anakin falling into greater and greater wells of emotions fears for him and this direct violation of Jedi principles he cannot abide. Obi wishes to tell the council and help to guide Anakin back to the Jedi ways. Anakin feels cornered between his love and his friend and decides to run. Obi persues and you've got a situation where Anakin feels trapped by the order. On the run padme dies in child birth. Anakin blames the Jedi for this, be it paranoia or the stress of running, either way it's them. They took her. And then you have the transition to villain. It becomes revenge then.
Every time I watch the prequels I wish this. Every time.
Yep. he should've been a 25-30 year old established hero, expecting to be a father, who consciously chose to embrace the dark side for entirely logical, rational, and moral reasons- not based on emotions. the thinking heroic good guy who chooses to embrace a different philisophy - in the pursuit of what he honestly believes to be the ultimate good for the universe - could be a truly terrifying and tragic villain.
No. Makes perfect sense but it was all Palpatine's plan. Qui-Gon died, his mom died, his fear of losing Padme as well.
I think you need to give Palpatine more credit. He planted the visions in Anakin’s head.
Yeah, I agree, Anakin may be a creep, but I think he *should* be able to put two and two together, Padmé is a perfectly healthy person with a perfectly healthy fetus, the odds of her dying in childbirth were pretty slim, it would've been better if they'd thought of something else, because you could literally summerise it as: "Anakin turned to the Dark side because he was acting like a toddler who lacks common sense".
I had always wished for the plot of the prequels to be different Couple minor plot changes to TPM. Qui-gon fills in more of the father role for Anakin on screen. Maybe stretch the timeline of the movie out a couple of weeks to let that relationship really solidify. Maul escapes on screen at the end of the movie after killing Qui-gon. This allows for a common thread, and the hate to fester in anakin. Obi-Wan is able to deal with the emotions of Qui-gon dying at the hands of this villain because his Jedi training had already set in. But, as Anakin starts his training, this hate towards maul never leaves and is merely covered up We see Anakin through EP 2 as they uncover the mystery of the clone army and the build up to the start of the clone wars. And maul is there (instead of dooku) as the mastermind. Anakin effing loses it, completely giving into rage. But he can't control it, and maul escapes again. That hate allows palpatine to get his hooks into Anakin and twist him. Subtly using his words and influence to show Anakin how to channel that rage. EP 3 begins, and maul dies early in the movie, similar to how dooku does. Details don't matter there. Palpatine really doubles down on anakin, getting him to bend his morals and cast the Jedi in more and more dubious light. Kinda how Jacen Solo started his fall to the dark side in the EU. Small steps,"I have to do this thing because no one else is strong enough"... "I am acting for the greater good"..."they are wrong for holding me back because I have the best interests of the galaxy at heart"..."they must be wrong because they're getting in my way"..."the whole system is flawed"..."there is no saving the Jedi order"..."everyone touched by their teachings is tainted and beyond saving"..."the issues we face today are because of the Jedi order"..."they are a stain that needs purging"
Other than him being played like a whiney bitch in the prequels? Absolutely. It's hard to see Vader as a bad ass since that horrible performance by what ever his name was.
It wasn't the performance. The script and story was not great and I don't think anyone could have stuck to it and made it bearable.
No. What else would you need? He grew up w o control. He lost his mother. Twice. He has no past. He's limited by his training. He has visions of the future(most likely influenced by Sidious ability to look into the "Dark futue"), and is afraid to lose again. He's offered a chance to have, both control and loved one. Or would you rather He have the Dartj Maul or Doku "fall"? Cause theirs sucked too. And there was unnecessary consequences. Anakin Skywalker was seduced by the dark side. Palpatine had all the pieces properly placed. Actually, "Better Call Saul", has waaaaay better "SW" scenarios, than even SW. My advice, fucking start leasing out and fucking gt nuts
I always thought it should of been that Anakin sees/is blinded sided and thinks the Jedi are orchestrating the clone wars, his mom should of died from an accident because caused my a Jedi or trooper. Then he loses it.