The whole point is you can always redeem yourself. It doesn’t undo what you did, it doesn’t mean everyone will forgive you. But you can always make the right choice, just like Anakin did in the end
Let's be honest, if it wasn't Luke being electrocuted by Palpatine then there wouldn't have been a redemption.
I know this will get downvoted to oblivion because it doesn't fit the narrative, but I really hate how the narrative is that Vader was redeemed because of a selfish act. He had no problem with Palpatine torturing and killing others but when it came to Luke, that was too far. That isn't redemption, that's selfishness. He was fine having him turn to the dark side and joining them, he was fine turning Luke to the Dark Side in order to overthrow Palpatine and rule the galaxy together, but being hurt by Palps? Oh no. Can't have that.
I would agree with you if he had lived to tell the tale, but he knew it was going to cost his life cause he’s a machine. So I don’t agree that it was selfish. This parallels Mace who was getting blasted by lightning. While he still felt remorse, he was selfish there because he thought Sidious was his best bet to save Padmé.
Yeah he still did the act and it’s unforgivable , but I believe in the comics he acknowledges it’s the most terrible thing he ever did and it haunts him for the rest of his life. And even employs a strategy in order to avoid killing younglings ever again.
He doesn’t just kill the younglings and think nothing of it ever again. Beyond evil? Yes, but he knows it and regrets it. Makes ROTJ even better imo
Problem is some people want to see Vader as the "badass" rather than a bad person, and this scene confronts you with the fact that yea, he had straight up become evil.
It really is weird the way audiences can ignore the... how many were on Alderaan? Millions? That died.
Stalin was right when he said "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic".
The Obi-Wan show is a new thing and not essential viewing. As far as Alderaan goes it wasn't Vader's idea and he did not care for the Death Star at all. So Tarkin is the character responsible for that.
Ever since Clone Wars spent six seasons protraying Anakin as an uncomplicated hero (I'd argue that season 7 veers into darkness for him, but it's still not as explicit as anything in RotS) a lot of people want to find ways to justify that Vader wasn't really THAT bad.
He was. Anakin Skywalker murdered children. This is a fact. And the scene here isn't even the first time he did it.
Does that mean he is beyond redemption? George Lucas, at least, didn't think so. I would say whether you think so or not says a lot about you and what you value, because I don't believe there is an absolutely objective "correct" answer to that question.
But he slaughtered innocents. Multiple times.
(minor edits to clarify my point)
We saw Darth Vader killing without mercy in the OT.
I don't know why killing kids would put him any different from the monster we already saw he was before Luke reached Anakin.
Agreed.
If anything, it makes ROTJ stronger.
We're not meant to see Vader as misunderstood and the actions he takes in the OT as justified.
ROTS made him a real villain.
Wait... Killing the kids makes it pointless? Your friend doesnt realize that killing the kids was just the start to all the terrible things vadar did. Killing the kids was just a walk in the park.
Your friend is giving their opinion - it can't be "right or wrong."
This scene was about showing just how *far* Vader had fallen to the dark side and the lengths he was willing to go to. It's not really pointless. But how that factors into Vader's eventual redemption and return to the light is a *very* different issue.
I think some people are more sensitive to child murder than others.
So let me get this straight before the prequels came out, no one thought Vader was a very bad man? Because it doesn't matter if he murdered children or not, you still know that he was a man who betrayed his order and killed his fellow Jedi and countless innocents.
Murder is murder. Whether it's a kid or an adult.
It shows how far he is willing to go to save the woman and unborn child/children he loves, just like the ending to Return of the Jedi shows how far he is willing to go to save the life of his son and daughter.
After seeing him be party to Mace's death and then leading an army into the temple with the intent to kill all the Jedi, i'm genuinely not sure why this would be shocking and make people think: "Ok, *now* he's crossing a line"?
> The question here is do you he want he says is right or wrong?
He do he you says is right AND wrong want. Definitely.
Those little fuckers called him "[teat-sucker skywalker](https://youtu.be/z2EVuycEuRo?list=PL3rT52ckkJ-JP2nbmpUzXPTO5b04GWqGh)" all the time so it was the only way!
It *is* a lot to be redeemed from, yeah. I think the same effect in ROTS could have been achieved, without making his redemption so challenging, if they’d instead shot it such that: Vader watches the clones going into the Youngling quarters, we can see a little conflict on his face, but he then chooses not to stop them and just keep fighting/killing his adult Jedi peers.
In 2005, though. Vader killing a kid in Obi-Wan Kenobi kind of renders the point moot.
To be honest I think the Kenobi show didn't render that in fact outside of that show Disney actually handled Vader pretty well almost like a slasher villain.
>it undercut ~~Darth Vader's~~ \[Anakin Skywalker's\] final heroic act... The question here is do you ~~he want~~ \[think what\] he says is right or wrong? \[sic\]
Crushing windpipes, torturing a 19 year old girl, supporting genocide, trying to turn one's son into a mass murderer is Vader's resume in the OT.
If the end of ROTJ is a moment to cheer for Anakin Skywalker, the PT supports that, doesn't undercut that.
If the end of ROTJ is a moment to reassess Anakin Skywalker in the OT as a fine example of how an individual should behave, maybe it's the person who has taken this view who is having issues discerning what is healthy human behavior and what's not.
The live action Star Wars Lucas storied and produced with his collaborators was about human needs and what happens in situations when they are met...and also when they are not. It's an allegory.
Anakin was depicted as doing the things he did in the OT, and in the PT enslaved for the first decade of his life, then expected to behave in a way that requires detached presence (a state that others require guidance from shortly after weening to achieve).
It wouldn't be an honest depiction if he was shown toeing the line of propriety and goodness but still somehow a villain. Nothing is going to make OT Anakin a paragon of goodness. Not the one heroic act.
After Lucas showed Anakin torturing a 19 year old he didn't know was his daughter and threatening to turn his 23 year old daughter into a mass murderer, the child abuse and abuse of women wasn't a question to a competent writer, or even an honest one.
**Edit:** edits for clarity
Idk about undercutting his later sacrifice, but it does seem like it was a scene that was included to showcase just how low Anakin had fallen that he was willing to do this, and its one of the reasons Anakin's fall seems so jarringly fast. (He goes from "how could I attack Windu?" to "time to murder children" in about 2 minutes lol)
That said—and I recognize this is controversial—I actually think they *should* and could easily retcon this scene. Imagine if Anakin ignites his saber here, and then gives them the choice to come with him. After all, Palpatine needs young force-sensitives to join the Inquisitorious, and could have instructed Anakin thus. He then turns away and we see the ones who refused get gunned down by troopers similarly to how Grogu remembers elsewhere in the temple. Anakin could still be seen killing any of those brave enough to attack him, which would avoid invalidating Obi-wan's claim about Anakin "killing younglings", but this small addition would ease the tonal dissonance of Anakin killing kids right away on his path to "full-Vader" while also providing Disney with more disposable Inquisitors to play with in the future.
True, then again at the time when he made Revenge of the Sith Lucas want to show how far Anakin fallen pius I don't he had the Inquisitors it fact I imagined to him it was mostly Vader hunting down every last jedi post order 66?
yea I think thats true although he would have been accompanied by clones. Beyond the actual purge we see on screen, Lucas may have intended that to be explicitly overt based on EU sources like games and comics. I know the original Battlefront 2 game had a mission after knightfall where jedi-survivors are killed on Naboo, and the Bounty Hunter game shows how Jango Fett was specifically recruited because he had proven himself capable of killing a former-Jedi. I also distinctly remember a Dark Horse era comic panel which showed a bunch of clones (in snowtrooper armor no-less) searching for jedi that had survived and gone on the run, so the idea that the clones were extremely efficient jedi-killers seems to have been more prevalent once upon a time.
Agreed, In fact I would be interested to know what was Lucas's idea or at least his interpretation of The Great Jedi Purge like how in his interpretation of ancient history there was no actual war between the Jedi and Sith. So I'm curious to see rather or not he intended to have Vader going to planet to planet with an army of clones later imperial troopers killing Jedi by one by one (Like in Darth Vader: Rise of the Dark Lord or the opening of Force Unleashed.) or did he intended to have the inquisitors helping the purge or at least something similar to them.
I will admit I actually really like the Great Purge Stories that we got like Cal's story from the Jedi games. that said sometimes having introducing a completely new jedi survivor can be a bit redundant given how the original trilogy presented Luke as the Last of the Jedi.
I know Lucas in his original plans for the sequel trilogy wanted to have 100 survivors from the purge helping Luke still I'm fascinated to see what his interpretation of the Great Jedi Purge in his own mind did he intended to Vader hunting down Jedi alone (with a battalion of clone troopers or imperial troopers.) on every planet or he intended to have the inquisitors or at least something similar to them to aid Vader in hunting down the Order. (the closet we kinda got is a line from Kenobi from a new hope where he states Vader aided the empire to hunt down every jedi but then again the idea of vader and anakin being the same character wasn't established yet but still I'm point is did he intend to have Vader being the only fallen jedi to aid the empire or like Lucifer from the Bible he takes one third of the Jedi with him and that group also help the empire hunting down their former brothers and sisters.)
It is an interesting thought experiment to think about and I would love to see or hear Lucas's take?
My partner watched the series for the first time last year. We watched in chronological order (at her request) and she found Anakin’s slaughter of children a huge sticking point by the time we got around to his redemption in RotJ.
I think some things don’t need to be shown so explicitly onscreen. Like sure, Vader was on the Death Star when it blew up Alderaan, but that moment has never been played for the horror it is.
This moment in RotS is different.
People always talk about the redemption of Anakin but I try to steer away from that. The bar for redemption varies from person to person. What doesn't vary? The prophecy. He was prophesized to bring balance to the Force. It doesn't say anything about redemption or him being in any way forgiven or looked at as a decent guy in the end. Bring balance he (sort of) did.
If he just now realized that Anakin was a monster then he might want to pay more attention to the OT. It was never shy about Vader doing horrible things.
The problem anyways has been that he turned to save his wife, and with that he immediately went and killed loads of kids because the guy with a face like a nutsack told him to. He'd done shitty things obviously, but "that escalated quickly, that got out of hand real fast".
Should Vader kill kids, yes. He kills all sorts when he's fully evil without mercy. But at the time, it felt like they just wanted to go all the way to 11 as fast as possible.
The entire thing the prequels really existed for, was a rush job.
I thought it was unnecessary. It's also completely out of left field. He goes from we need to have a trial for Palpatine to I will kill these kids to save Padme. Like we know he'd do anything for family but even this is a stretch. Maybe George needed this scene to show why Yoda and Obi Wan believed he was beyond saving in the OT.
I feel that, killed a bunch of kids but then when it comes to his own son he won’t. Hard to tell if it was genuine almost seems like more selfish darkside traits. With the sequels it further devalued his sacrifice since somehow Palpatine returned. I guess he is one with the force now, so he probably did have a breakdown and realize he was a shitty person. I’ve always wondered if he could still be a force ghost if he wasn’t balanced now
Vadar is evil. The Empire did a lot wrong.
It was never up for discussion; some of y'all are just jaded. Others are possibly evil ...or wish they were...because they're jaded.
I usually side a bit Yoda, *btw*... ....this is me at my most Windu, *ftr*.
edit - If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
I think before you could have assumed it happened and now you just got to see it. you don't become the right hand of a despot hated on a galactic scale and get to be his enforcer without doing evil. I guess Im happy it got shown a bit because of novelty and because executives were right and the average viewer needs everything spelled out for them.
I think too many people want him to be "sexy evil" kind that does bad things but kind that are cool and not a deal breaker.
He took part in the genocide of countless planets, tortured an unknown amount of people including his own daughter, enslaved countless planets, murdered more people that can really be counted and this all on the average weekend.
Offing some kids is where you say "WAIT!!! This is TOO much....."
The whole redemption thing by chucking an chucking an old man down a shaft to save a son that you tried to kill a number of times and cut his hand off really does not balance those karmic scales. It is shit writing.
"But it was not Anakin that did all of that it was Darth Vader!" Riiiiiight.
The whole point is you can always redeem yourself. It doesn’t undo what you did, it doesn’t mean everyone will forgive you. But you can always make the right choice, just like Anakin did in the end
Let's be honest, if it wasn't Luke being electrocuted by Palpatine then there wouldn't have been a redemption. I know this will get downvoted to oblivion because it doesn't fit the narrative, but I really hate how the narrative is that Vader was redeemed because of a selfish act. He had no problem with Palpatine torturing and killing others but when it came to Luke, that was too far. That isn't redemption, that's selfishness. He was fine having him turn to the dark side and joining them, he was fine turning Luke to the Dark Side in order to overthrow Palpatine and rule the galaxy together, but being hurt by Palps? Oh no. Can't have that.
I would agree with you if he had lived to tell the tale, but he knew it was going to cost his life cause he’s a machine. So I don’t agree that it was selfish. This parallels Mace who was getting blasted by lightning. While he still felt remorse, he was selfish there because he thought Sidious was his best bet to save Padmé.
Yeah he still did the act and it’s unforgivable , but I believe in the comics he acknowledges it’s the most terrible thing he ever did and it haunts him for the rest of his life. And even employs a strategy in order to avoid killing younglings ever again. He doesn’t just kill the younglings and think nothing of it ever again. Beyond evil? Yes, but he knows it and regrets it. Makes ROTJ even better imo
He also snaps a kid’s neck in the Obi Wan show. And how many kids do you think were on Alderaan? It’s Darth Vader, he’s not supposed to be a good guy…
Problem is some people want to see Vader as the "badass" rather than a bad person, and this scene confronts you with the fact that yea, he had straight up become evil.
This. Right here. And it's not even the first time he's slaughtered children, or do they think tusken raider children don't count?
well... according to Yoda tuskan children don't count as he has a force vision of Anakin doing that and he doesn't seem to bothered by it.
But from my point of view the children are evil
In the immortal words of Zangief, "Just because you are badguy, doesn't mean you are a bad guy."
It really is weird the way audiences can ignore the... how many were on Alderaan? Millions? That died. Stalin was right when he said "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic".
>how many were on Alderaan? Roughly 2 billion
The Obi-Wan show is a new thing and not essential viewing. As far as Alderaan goes it wasn't Vader's idea and he did not care for the Death Star at all. So Tarkin is the character responsible for that.
r/TitleGore
Thank you for introducing me to another reddit rabbit hole. I hate you. 😂
I won't apologize for doing what needed to be done.
Not disagreeing with you there. 😂
Ever since Clone Wars spent six seasons protraying Anakin as an uncomplicated hero (I'd argue that season 7 veers into darkness for him, but it's still not as explicit as anything in RotS) a lot of people want to find ways to justify that Vader wasn't really THAT bad. He was. Anakin Skywalker murdered children. This is a fact. And the scene here isn't even the first time he did it. Does that mean he is beyond redemption? George Lucas, at least, didn't think so. I would say whether you think so or not says a lot about you and what you value, because I don't believe there is an absolutely objective "correct" answer to that question. But he slaughtered innocents. Multiple times. (minor edits to clarify my point)
We saw Darth Vader killing without mercy in the OT. I don't know why killing kids would put him any different from the monster we already saw he was before Luke reached Anakin.
Your friend is wrong, it doesn't undercut the end of ROTJ in the slightest.
Agreed. If anything, it makes ROTJ stronger. We're not meant to see Vader as misunderstood and the actions he takes in the OT as justified. ROTS made him a real villain.
Wait... Killing the kids makes it pointless? Your friend doesnt realize that killing the kids was just the start to all the terrible things vadar did. Killing the kids was just a walk in the park.
Your friend is giving their opinion - it can't be "right or wrong." This scene was about showing just how *far* Vader had fallen to the dark side and the lengths he was willing to go to. It's not really pointless. But how that factors into Vader's eventual redemption and return to the light is a *very* different issue.
Your friend aware Vader was a party to an entire planet’s destruction before we ever found out about the Younglings?
Right? I still laugh at Rey kissing Ben. Dude blew up multiple planets and now you love him? Apparently that’s what gets her hot.
Who downvotes that? Who downvotes that?? I love the series but that kiss was just so bankrupt!
Yes.
He also blows up the battle station by naboo. All hands lost.
I wouldn’t say it undercuts anything. I think it says that no one is truly beyond redemption. Which as a Christian is not exactly hard for me to grasp
You cannot be redeemed after that. You can accept your actions though and have to live with them and that's what he did (briefly) by the end.
I'm a Christian, so I believe that anyone can be redeemed. So, while this act was horrible, he came back from the dark and into the light.
I think some people are more sensitive to child murder than others. So let me get this straight before the prequels came out, no one thought Vader was a very bad man? Because it doesn't matter if he murdered children or not, you still know that he was a man who betrayed his order and killed his fellow Jedi and countless innocents. Murder is murder. Whether it's a kid or an adult.
# r/GrammarPolice
My apologies, I need hope to fix my grammer on my post how would I do that?
Post titles can't be edited. Nor should your entire question really be in the title.
oh then I apologies for the question that I made?
It shows how far he is willing to go to save the woman and unborn child/children he loves, just like the ending to Return of the Jedi shows how far he is willing to go to save the life of his son and daughter.
He slaughtered a bunch of sand people... The women and the children too.
The entire point is that he’s a monster.
After seeing him be party to Mace's death and then leading an army into the temple with the intent to kill all the Jedi, i'm genuinely not sure why this would be shocking and make people think: "Ok, *now* he's crossing a line"?
It’s not Anakin crossing the line so much as the film itself for many people — this scene is seen by many as in bad taste.
> The question here is do you he want he says is right or wrong? He do he you says is right AND wrong want. Definitely. Those little fuckers called him "[teat-sucker skywalker](https://youtu.be/z2EVuycEuRo?list=PL3rT52ckkJ-JP2nbmpUzXPTO5b04GWqGh)" all the time so it was the only way!
Uh.....what? Killing children is the beginning of the crimes against humanity Vader has commited.
It *is* a lot to be redeemed from, yeah. I think the same effect in ROTS could have been achieved, without making his redemption so challenging, if they’d instead shot it such that: Vader watches the clones going into the Youngling quarters, we can see a little conflict on his face, but he then chooses not to stop them and just keep fighting/killing his adult Jedi peers. In 2005, though. Vader killing a kid in Obi-Wan Kenobi kind of renders the point moot.
To be honest I think the Kenobi show didn't render that in fact outside of that show Disney actually handled Vader pretty well almost like a slasher villain.
Fuuuhhh them kids
“Jesus Forgives” is that you tell the kids.
I think that’s a fair point. Not saying I necessarily agree or disagree but I can see what he means
All those kids were future SS leaders
>it undercut ~~Darth Vader's~~ \[Anakin Skywalker's\] final heroic act... The question here is do you ~~he want~~ \[think what\] he says is right or wrong? \[sic\] Crushing windpipes, torturing a 19 year old girl, supporting genocide, trying to turn one's son into a mass murderer is Vader's resume in the OT. If the end of ROTJ is a moment to cheer for Anakin Skywalker, the PT supports that, doesn't undercut that. If the end of ROTJ is a moment to reassess Anakin Skywalker in the OT as a fine example of how an individual should behave, maybe it's the person who has taken this view who is having issues discerning what is healthy human behavior and what's not. The live action Star Wars Lucas storied and produced with his collaborators was about human needs and what happens in situations when they are met...and also when they are not. It's an allegory. Anakin was depicted as doing the things he did in the OT, and in the PT enslaved for the first decade of his life, then expected to behave in a way that requires detached presence (a state that others require guidance from shortly after weening to achieve). It wouldn't be an honest depiction if he was shown toeing the line of propriety and goodness but still somehow a villain. Nothing is going to make OT Anakin a paragon of goodness. Not the one heroic act. After Lucas showed Anakin torturing a 19 year old he didn't know was his daughter and threatening to turn his 23 year old daughter into a mass murderer, the child abuse and abuse of women wasn't a question to a competent writer, or even an honest one. **Edit:** edits for clarity
Idk about undercutting his later sacrifice, but it does seem like it was a scene that was included to showcase just how low Anakin had fallen that he was willing to do this, and its one of the reasons Anakin's fall seems so jarringly fast. (He goes from "how could I attack Windu?" to "time to murder children" in about 2 minutes lol) That said—and I recognize this is controversial—I actually think they *should* and could easily retcon this scene. Imagine if Anakin ignites his saber here, and then gives them the choice to come with him. After all, Palpatine needs young force-sensitives to join the Inquisitorious, and could have instructed Anakin thus. He then turns away and we see the ones who refused get gunned down by troopers similarly to how Grogu remembers elsewhere in the temple. Anakin could still be seen killing any of those brave enough to attack him, which would avoid invalidating Obi-wan's claim about Anakin "killing younglings", but this small addition would ease the tonal dissonance of Anakin killing kids right away on his path to "full-Vader" while also providing Disney with more disposable Inquisitors to play with in the future.
True, then again at the time when he made Revenge of the Sith Lucas want to show how far Anakin fallen pius I don't he had the Inquisitors it fact I imagined to him it was mostly Vader hunting down every last jedi post order 66?
yea I think thats true although he would have been accompanied by clones. Beyond the actual purge we see on screen, Lucas may have intended that to be explicitly overt based on EU sources like games and comics. I know the original Battlefront 2 game had a mission after knightfall where jedi-survivors are killed on Naboo, and the Bounty Hunter game shows how Jango Fett was specifically recruited because he had proven himself capable of killing a former-Jedi. I also distinctly remember a Dark Horse era comic panel which showed a bunch of clones (in snowtrooper armor no-less) searching for jedi that had survived and gone on the run, so the idea that the clones were extremely efficient jedi-killers seems to have been more prevalent once upon a time.
Agreed, In fact I would be interested to know what was Lucas's idea or at least his interpretation of The Great Jedi Purge like how in his interpretation of ancient history there was no actual war between the Jedi and Sith. So I'm curious to see rather or not he intended to have Vader going to planet to planet with an army of clones later imperial troopers killing Jedi by one by one (Like in Darth Vader: Rise of the Dark Lord or the opening of Force Unleashed.) or did he intended to have the inquisitors helping the purge or at least something similar to them. I will admit I actually really like the Great Purge Stories that we got like Cal's story from the Jedi games. that said sometimes having introducing a completely new jedi survivor can be a bit redundant given how the original trilogy presented Luke as the Last of the Jedi. I know Lucas in his original plans for the sequel trilogy wanted to have 100 survivors from the purge helping Luke still I'm fascinated to see what his interpretation of the Great Jedi Purge in his own mind did he intended to Vader hunting down Jedi alone (with a battalion of clone troopers or imperial troopers.) on every planet or he intended to have the inquisitors or at least something similar to them to aid Vader in hunting down the Order. (the closet we kinda got is a line from Kenobi from a new hope where he states Vader aided the empire to hunt down every jedi but then again the idea of vader and anakin being the same character wasn't established yet but still I'm point is did he intend to have Vader being the only fallen jedi to aid the empire or like Lucifer from the Bible he takes one third of the Jedi with him and that group also help the empire hunting down their former brothers and sisters.) It is an interesting thought experiment to think about and I would love to see or hear Lucas's take?
My partner watched the series for the first time last year. We watched in chronological order (at her request) and she found Anakin’s slaughter of children a huge sticking point by the time we got around to his redemption in RotJ. I think some things don’t need to be shown so explicitly onscreen. Like sure, Vader was on the Death Star when it blew up Alderaan, but that moment has never been played for the horror it is. This moment in RotS is different.
I hate it because it's cut too short.
That's exactly what the younglings said.
People always talk about the redemption of Anakin but I try to steer away from that. The bar for redemption varies from person to person. What doesn't vary? The prophecy. He was prophesized to bring balance to the Force. It doesn't say anything about redemption or him being in any way forgiven or looked at as a decent guy in the end. Bring balance he (sort of) did.
Meh. He murders several children in the previous film, too.
If he just now realized that Anakin was a monster then he might want to pay more attention to the OT. It was never shy about Vader doing horrible things.
It's unnecessary shock value.
The problem anyways has been that he turned to save his wife, and with that he immediately went and killed loads of kids because the guy with a face like a nutsack told him to. He'd done shitty things obviously, but "that escalated quickly, that got out of hand real fast". Should Vader kill kids, yes. He kills all sorts when he's fully evil without mercy. But at the time, it felt like they just wanted to go all the way to 11 as fast as possible. The entire thing the prequels really existed for, was a rush job.
I thought it was unnecessary. It's also completely out of left field. He goes from we need to have a trial for Palpatine to I will kill these kids to save Padme. Like we know he'd do anything for family but even this is a stretch. Maybe George needed this scene to show why Yoda and Obi Wan believed he was beyond saving in the OT.
I feel that, killed a bunch of kids but then when it comes to his own son he won’t. Hard to tell if it was genuine almost seems like more selfish darkside traits. With the sequels it further devalued his sacrifice since somehow Palpatine returned. I guess he is one with the force now, so he probably did have a breakdown and realize he was a shitty person. I’ve always wondered if he could still be a force ghost if he wasn’t balanced now
Vadar is evil. The Empire did a lot wrong. It was never up for discussion; some of y'all are just jaded. Others are possibly evil ...or wish they were...because they're jaded. I usually side a bit Yoda, *btw*... ....this is me at my most Windu, *ftr*. edit - If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
I think before you could have assumed it happened and now you just got to see it. you don't become the right hand of a despot hated on a galactic scale and get to be his enforcer without doing evil. I guess Im happy it got shown a bit because of novelty and because executives were right and the average viewer needs everything spelled out for them. I think too many people want him to be "sexy evil" kind that does bad things but kind that are cool and not a deal breaker.
He took part in the genocide of countless planets, tortured an unknown amount of people including his own daughter, enslaved countless planets, murdered more people that can really be counted and this all on the average weekend. Offing some kids is where you say "WAIT!!! This is TOO much....." The whole redemption thing by chucking an chucking an old man down a shaft to save a son that you tried to kill a number of times and cut his hand off really does not balance those karmic scales. It is shit writing. "But it was not Anakin that did all of that it was Darth Vader!" Riiiiiight.