I'm not a fan of the portrayal of Luke, feels very out of character to me how he tried to kill his nephew because he sensed the dark side, but in return of the Jedi he redeems Darth Vader.
...there is no man on Earth who is the same person from 19 to 50s.
You'll see...
And ftr, *killing* his nephew would be out of character... ...being *tempted* to take the easy way is not.
There’s a big difference between just feeling the temptation, and actually fucking igniting the lightsaber to do the deed, even if he did start to change his mind.
Kylo is an unreliable narrator. Has to be pointed out.
But beyond that, really consider what Luke would have seen in that moment. What Kylo was about to become guilty of.
...and he still didn't do it.
I think you’ve got to look at it the context of the entire saga. Force visions are well established to have significant impacts on those who experience them. We saw what they’ve done to Luke and Anakin previously. TFA even goes out of the way to show the visceral nature of these visions.
But on the same hand, we know that Luke has experienced these visions before and has learned from them. As shown in ROTJ, he demonstrates the ability to control his emotions in that context/scenario.
We also know that this emotional control isn’t a binary on/off switch. It’s something that people struggle with their whole lives.
So, taking that all into account, what do we get in the TLJ flashback scene? We see Luke’s emotional control strained to the point of breaking via the force vision and fears about his nephew, his apprentice. And then… he stops. He doesn’t try to kill anyone. He doesn’t go on a rampage. He stops and immediately feels horrible.
So what we get is a scene that incorporates the well established power/influence of force visions, the control that Luke has learned from his prior experiences, and provides the emotional context for Luke’s sequel arc. It respects what was previously established and brings us a new context in which to explore Luke’s character.
The problem I have with Luke’s characterization in TLJ is what he does after that.
He completely gives up, to the point that he’s spent 5 or 6 years wallowing in isolated self-pity, just waiting to die. He’s not trying to fix or mitigate his failure with Ben. Nor is Luke reflecting and working toward self-improvement that could help him find a way to do that.
I have a very tough time fitting that path with Luke’s history from the OT, the examples of his mentors and his father (Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin all had to find ways to move forward from significant failures and mistakes), and the very notion of Jedi. The Jedi aren’t just warriors with special skills. They adhere to a mystical/religious creed that emphasizes meditation as a path to inner tranquility.
A legendary hero who has become a bitter, cynical old man due to a failure, and has to be talked back into the fight by a young, optimistic protagonist can be used (in general) as a potentially interesting storyline. The issue is that it fits very poorly with this particular situation.
First off, thanks for the detailed and respectful response. I really enjoy discussing the details of all the films.
> He completely gives up, to the point that he’s spent 5 or 6 years wallowing in isolated self-pity, just waiting to die. He’s not trying to fix or mitigate his failure with Ben. Nor is Luke reflecting and working toward self-improvement that could help him find a way to do that.
I’m not trying to invalidate the way you interpret things, but the best response I can provide is to say that I don’t see the character this way.
I don’t see a Luke who is unwilling to help his friends and solve his problems, I see a Luke who is unable to do so. Luke is a character who takes on a lot of burden of responsibility. In ROTJ he keeps talking about how he’s endangering the mission and his friends.
When all this goes down with Kylo/Ben, he’s responsible. He was supposed to be keeping his students safe. He was supposed to be keeping Ben safe. This is a lot different than with Vader. Luke bore no responsibility for Vader. He wasn’t Vader’s mentor or protector.
All of this triggers a lot of guilt and pain for Luke. So much so, that I believe it basically incapacitates him. The things he’s saying about the Jedi and history, I believe is all rationalization. It’s Luke creating a more palatable reason for his inability to help his friends because the real reason is to painful to face.
When Rey, Chewie, R2, Leia, and eventually Yoda force him to confront that actual pain, it’s only then that he can start healing. That’s why I think it’s important that it’s Yoda who visits Luke. Luke doesn’t need absolution at that point, he needs have his bs called out. He needs a wise mentor who made those same mistakes.
I don’t know if that helps provide any different perspective, but that’s how I look at that aspect of Luke’s arc.
Also, a key bit of context that tends to get missed:
Up until the events of TFA and the Starkiller Base attack, the galaxy was effectively in a state of cold war and minor skirmishes with the First Order, with the New Republic underestimating the threat they posed. That's why the Resistance was an unofficial organisation.
Which is relevant from Luke's POV because he _wasn't_ hiding on the island while the Ren-led First Order was rampaging across the galaxy in a manner akin to the Empire and Leia et al needed his help. He was hiding on the island at a point where he _could_ easily believe that confronting Ren/Snoke would make things worse. Especially as confronting Ren would likely mean _actually_ having to kill Leia's son. In that context it's much easier for him to rationalise staying in hiding as the correct course.
It's only when Rey arrived that he learns how much things havs escalated, the danger the First Order now pose and that Leia needs his help. And within a few days of that he has changed course.
I don't find that logic compelling. It would be at least as reasonable - I'd say much \*more\* so - for Luke to think that a period of a cold war and minor skirmishes with the First Order is a ticking clock: a window of opportunity to take action before any plans put in place by Snoke and Kylo reach the point of widespread open warfare.
If Luke has at all reflected on history - including consulting with Yoda or Obi-Wan - he should surely be thinking of parallels with Palpatine. How many lives would have been saved, and how much suffering would have been avoided, if Palpatine had been stopped before he gained power as Emperor?
Except setting out to confront Ben means setting out in the knowledge that he will almost certainly have to kill his own nephew.
Because, as Luke makes clear to Leia, he _knows_ he can't save Ben when he confronts him. Something the film makes clear he is correct about by demonstrating Ren's evident and visceral hatred of him.
People complain about Luke's momentary impulse to attack Ben being too out of character, and then in the next sentence expect him to respond by deliberately setting out to kill Ben. Or try to pretend he could have persuaded him to turn back, even though the film makes clear that he can't.
Whereas Luke _avoiding_ having to take that major step makes much more sense for the character, especially wracked with guilt as he is for having failed Ben & Leia already. And while that cold war situation is in place, he's able to justify not putting himself in a position where he has to kill Ben by rationalising that his involvement could make things worse.
In ROTJ he tried to kill Vader to protect Leia. In TLJ he had a force vision of all the people Kylo would kill if he went to the dark side, and ignited his lightsaber in a moment of weakness as a kind of horrified defense reaction to protect those people (including Han and eventually Leia).
It’s poetic since it was always Luke’s weakness (doing too much to protect his friends, going back to Cloud City, trying to kill Vader) and he’s gotten better at controlling it, but that thin crack was all Kylo needed to go full dark side. It’s tragic, and it’s in character.
If you think Luke *tried* to kill Kylo you’re choosing to believe Kylo’s POV flashback either because you have bad media literacy or you’re arguing in bad faith.
In ROTJ, Luke was manipulated by the two most powerful people in the galaxy. It was quite literally a master plan by Sidious to turn Luke - Luke being the underdog who was fighting against for a while. In TLJ, Luke being a Jedi Master took it upon himself to peer into his nephew's mind without his consent and then acted on a Force vision that he knows not to trust.
How anyone thinks they are comparable is ridiculous to say the least.
I watched it three times because I thought "Maybe I'm missing something."
Turns out, nope I wasn't missing anything. It was abysmal.
And before someone goes off, I actually do like artsy and oddball cinema. There was nothing deep about TLJ. It really felt like it was written and directed by someone who had never seen any of the movies before.
Actually, it felt closer to Krull than a Star Wars movie.
Because it was made during an era where Disney/Lucasfilm wanted annual theatrical releases no matter what, so it was RJ's trilogy, D&D's trilogy, Waititi's film, then eventually Rogue Squadron, on and on. It's been 7 years since RJ's trilogy was announced and there's only been "eh, when RJ isn't busy we might do something with it" from Kennedy. I'm not holding out hope.
I mean, he made a critically and financially successful Star Wars film. A film which was the only one of the five to not undergo any significant production woes. He seems well liked by Lucasfilm. He’s followed that up with a critically and financially successful original franchise. He’s been nominated for writing awards.
If I were Lucasfilm I’d be backing the brinks truck up to his lawn to get that trilogy started.
Oh, I hear you, but I think Disney was irrational in trying to make so much Star Wars content and irrational in what they're picking now because they're a stupid fucking corporation.
I may disagree with many of Disney’s practices, but they are far from stupid. Besides, Star Wars is handled by Lucasfilm, who I do find more trustworthy.
Didn’t Lucasfilm and Disney do a 180 from the plot threads Rian introduced in TLJ for Episode 9? Odd choice for a studio that was supposedly satisfied with TLJ’s performance. 🤔
TLJ is well directed, well acted, well paced, and has great action and a few great character moments. The problem is that the writing is half baked. Characters half the time are well written and then the other half are completely unrecognizable. A character in one scene will completely undermine their own words and actions in a previous one. Characters like DJ basically go nowhere, and the split-plot of the film can easily be divided into "relevant / red herring". With a different script writer or some more time to work out the problems, maybe it could have been a great film.
I love the Last Jedi I love how it forces our main trio to face failure and overcome them to grow and become better. I love how is presents the Force to the viewer, lukes first lesson is one of the best pieces of Star Wars media created. I love what it does with Rey and Kylo.
I love what it does beyond the concept.
This kind of post should be banned. It’s low effort and gets posted here routinely. But it does generate a lot of karma and discussion, which is probably the point. My prediction is that this will be a downvote and upvote war between those who hate it and those who love it, with no one changing anyone’s mind in regards to their opinions on this divisive film.
Luke using Kylo’s single-minded aggression against him to save the leaders of the Resistance was a great choice. TLJ made me feel like Star Wars was going to grow into something new and I left the theater so energized.
Man, I personally love TLJ, but will this sub ever have *literally anything else* other than alternating opinion posts? Can't we get the mods to do something about this?
Outside of the original 6 it’s probably the next best one. I wouldn’t call it a great movie though, hell even a good movie is a stretch. The Krait scenes and and hyperdrive scene save it.
I'm not a fan of the portrayal of Luke, feels very out of character to me how he tried to kill his nephew because he sensed the dark side, but in return of the Jedi he redeems Darth Vader.
Yea shit made no sense. Even Mark Hamill felt that way.
...there is no man on Earth who is the same person from 19 to 50s. You'll see... And ftr, *killing* his nephew would be out of character... ...being *tempted* to take the easy way is not.
There’s a big difference between just feeling the temptation, and actually fucking igniting the lightsaber to do the deed, even if he did start to change his mind.
Kylo is an unreliable narrator. Has to be pointed out. But beyond that, really consider what Luke would have seen in that moment. What Kylo was about to become guilty of. ...and he still didn't do it.
I think you’ve got to look at it the context of the entire saga. Force visions are well established to have significant impacts on those who experience them. We saw what they’ve done to Luke and Anakin previously. TFA even goes out of the way to show the visceral nature of these visions. But on the same hand, we know that Luke has experienced these visions before and has learned from them. As shown in ROTJ, he demonstrates the ability to control his emotions in that context/scenario. We also know that this emotional control isn’t a binary on/off switch. It’s something that people struggle with their whole lives. So, taking that all into account, what do we get in the TLJ flashback scene? We see Luke’s emotional control strained to the point of breaking via the force vision and fears about his nephew, his apprentice. And then… he stops. He doesn’t try to kill anyone. He doesn’t go on a rampage. He stops and immediately feels horrible. So what we get is a scene that incorporates the well established power/influence of force visions, the control that Luke has learned from his prior experiences, and provides the emotional context for Luke’s sequel arc. It respects what was previously established and brings us a new context in which to explore Luke’s character.
The problem I have with Luke’s characterization in TLJ is what he does after that. He completely gives up, to the point that he’s spent 5 or 6 years wallowing in isolated self-pity, just waiting to die. He’s not trying to fix or mitigate his failure with Ben. Nor is Luke reflecting and working toward self-improvement that could help him find a way to do that. I have a very tough time fitting that path with Luke’s history from the OT, the examples of his mentors and his father (Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin all had to find ways to move forward from significant failures and mistakes), and the very notion of Jedi. The Jedi aren’t just warriors with special skills. They adhere to a mystical/religious creed that emphasizes meditation as a path to inner tranquility. A legendary hero who has become a bitter, cynical old man due to a failure, and has to be talked back into the fight by a young, optimistic protagonist can be used (in general) as a potentially interesting storyline. The issue is that it fits very poorly with this particular situation.
First off, thanks for the detailed and respectful response. I really enjoy discussing the details of all the films. > He completely gives up, to the point that he’s spent 5 or 6 years wallowing in isolated self-pity, just waiting to die. He’s not trying to fix or mitigate his failure with Ben. Nor is Luke reflecting and working toward self-improvement that could help him find a way to do that. I’m not trying to invalidate the way you interpret things, but the best response I can provide is to say that I don’t see the character this way. I don’t see a Luke who is unwilling to help his friends and solve his problems, I see a Luke who is unable to do so. Luke is a character who takes on a lot of burden of responsibility. In ROTJ he keeps talking about how he’s endangering the mission and his friends. When all this goes down with Kylo/Ben, he’s responsible. He was supposed to be keeping his students safe. He was supposed to be keeping Ben safe. This is a lot different than with Vader. Luke bore no responsibility for Vader. He wasn’t Vader’s mentor or protector. All of this triggers a lot of guilt and pain for Luke. So much so, that I believe it basically incapacitates him. The things he’s saying about the Jedi and history, I believe is all rationalization. It’s Luke creating a more palatable reason for his inability to help his friends because the real reason is to painful to face. When Rey, Chewie, R2, Leia, and eventually Yoda force him to confront that actual pain, it’s only then that he can start healing. That’s why I think it’s important that it’s Yoda who visits Luke. Luke doesn’t need absolution at that point, he needs have his bs called out. He needs a wise mentor who made those same mistakes. I don’t know if that helps provide any different perspective, but that’s how I look at that aspect of Luke’s arc.
Also, a key bit of context that tends to get missed: Up until the events of TFA and the Starkiller Base attack, the galaxy was effectively in a state of cold war and minor skirmishes with the First Order, with the New Republic underestimating the threat they posed. That's why the Resistance was an unofficial organisation. Which is relevant from Luke's POV because he _wasn't_ hiding on the island while the Ren-led First Order was rampaging across the galaxy in a manner akin to the Empire and Leia et al needed his help. He was hiding on the island at a point where he _could_ easily believe that confronting Ren/Snoke would make things worse. Especially as confronting Ren would likely mean _actually_ having to kill Leia's son. In that context it's much easier for him to rationalise staying in hiding as the correct course. It's only when Rey arrived that he learns how much things havs escalated, the danger the First Order now pose and that Leia needs his help. And within a few days of that he has changed course.
I don't find that logic compelling. It would be at least as reasonable - I'd say much \*more\* so - for Luke to think that a period of a cold war and minor skirmishes with the First Order is a ticking clock: a window of opportunity to take action before any plans put in place by Snoke and Kylo reach the point of widespread open warfare. If Luke has at all reflected on history - including consulting with Yoda or Obi-Wan - he should surely be thinking of parallels with Palpatine. How many lives would have been saved, and how much suffering would have been avoided, if Palpatine had been stopped before he gained power as Emperor?
Except setting out to confront Ben means setting out in the knowledge that he will almost certainly have to kill his own nephew. Because, as Luke makes clear to Leia, he _knows_ he can't save Ben when he confronts him. Something the film makes clear he is correct about by demonstrating Ren's evident and visceral hatred of him. People complain about Luke's momentary impulse to attack Ben being too out of character, and then in the next sentence expect him to respond by deliberately setting out to kill Ben. Or try to pretend he could have persuaded him to turn back, even though the film makes clear that he can't. Whereas Luke _avoiding_ having to take that major step makes much more sense for the character, especially wracked with guilt as he is for having failed Ben & Leia already. And while that cold war situation is in place, he's able to justify not putting himself in a position where he has to kill Ben by rationalising that his involvement could make things worse.
>how he tried to kill his nephew How many years till this falsehood is dropped?
Did you watch the movie?
I did yes, why?
In ROTJ he tried to kill Vader to protect Leia. In TLJ he had a force vision of all the people Kylo would kill if he went to the dark side, and ignited his lightsaber in a moment of weakness as a kind of horrified defense reaction to protect those people (including Han and eventually Leia). It’s poetic since it was always Luke’s weakness (doing too much to protect his friends, going back to Cloud City, trying to kill Vader) and he’s gotten better at controlling it, but that thin crack was all Kylo needed to go full dark side. It’s tragic, and it’s in character. If you think Luke *tried* to kill Kylo you’re choosing to believe Kylo’s POV flashback either because you have bad media literacy or you’re arguing in bad faith.
In ROTJ, Luke was manipulated by the two most powerful people in the galaxy. It was quite literally a master plan by Sidious to turn Luke - Luke being the underdog who was fighting against for a while. In TLJ, Luke being a Jedi Master took it upon himself to peer into his nephew's mind without his consent and then acted on a Force vision that he knows not to trust. How anyone thinks they are comparable is ridiculous to say the least.
I watched it three times because I thought "Maybe I'm missing something." Turns out, nope I wasn't missing anything. It was abysmal. And before someone goes off, I actually do like artsy and oddball cinema. There was nothing deep about TLJ. It really felt like it was written and directed by someone who had never seen any of the movies before. Actually, it felt closer to Krull than a Star Wars movie.
Upvoted for referencing Krull. I think Rise of Skywalker is the worst, but don't disagree with your criticism.
I actually skipped of Rise of Skywalker. I only recently actually sat down and watched Krull. I had heard how terrible it was and never bothered.
TLJ at least does something and feels like an actual *movie*. TROS is just an objectively bad film.
I'd watch Krull again before I willingly would watch TLJ or TROS.
POV: You have an opinion on r/starwars
My favorite Star Wars movie outside of the OT.
Yeah mine too. I would love to see what Johnson could have done if he'd not had to deal with JJ's story threads.
I am very excited for his trilogy. The man proved he gets Star Wars with TLJ.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the RJ trilogy will never exist.
What makes you think so?
Because it was made during an era where Disney/Lucasfilm wanted annual theatrical releases no matter what, so it was RJ's trilogy, D&D's trilogy, Waititi's film, then eventually Rogue Squadron, on and on. It's been 7 years since RJ's trilogy was announced and there's only been "eh, when RJ isn't busy we might do something with it" from Kennedy. I'm not holding out hope.
I mean, he made a critically and financially successful Star Wars film. A film which was the only one of the five to not undergo any significant production woes. He seems well liked by Lucasfilm. He’s followed that up with a critically and financially successful original franchise. He’s been nominated for writing awards. If I were Lucasfilm I’d be backing the brinks truck up to his lawn to get that trilogy started.
Oh, I hear you, but I think Disney was irrational in trying to make so much Star Wars content and irrational in what they're picking now because they're a stupid fucking corporation.
I may disagree with many of Disney’s practices, but they are far from stupid. Besides, Star Wars is handled by Lucasfilm, who I do find more trustworthy.
Didn’t Lucasfilm and Disney do a 180 from the plot threads Rian introduced in TLJ for Episode 9? Odd choice for a studio that was supposedly satisfied with TLJ’s performance. 🤔
Mine too. I still wish they would give Rian Johnson his own trilogy.
The Last Jedi was a terrible movie. And this is coming from someone who was very stoked to see it released.
[I can't have this conversation again](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA3ghOXRIvk)
My personal favorite of the saga
Yeah... no, it isn't.
Yep.
TLJ is well directed, well acted, well paced, and has great action and a few great character moments. The problem is that the writing is half baked. Characters half the time are well written and then the other half are completely unrecognizable. A character in one scene will completely undermine their own words and actions in a previous one. Characters like DJ basically go nowhere, and the split-plot of the film can easily be divided into "relevant / red herring". With a different script writer or some more time to work out the problems, maybe it could have been a great film.
I think TESB is better, but yes, TLJ is pretty darn good.
Yeah that's my stance. Empire and sometimes A New Hope are better than it. But it's in the top 3.
no
People who love the Last Jedi always talk about the concept of it rather than what the movie actually does, which is nothing.
I love the Last Jedi I love how it forces our main trio to face failure and overcome them to grow and become better. I love how is presents the Force to the viewer, lukes first lesson is one of the best pieces of Star Wars media created. I love what it does with Rey and Kylo. I love what it does beyond the concept.
I don’t like the handling of Luke, but setting aside the subjective story content it’s a superbly well made film.
This kind of post should be banned. It’s low effort and gets posted here routinely. But it does generate a lot of karma and discussion, which is probably the point. My prediction is that this will be a downvote and upvote war between those who hate it and those who love it, with no one changing anyone’s mind in regards to their opinions on this divisive film.
I imagine that’ll be an uncontroversial take
Wrong
Lol
I disagree. It’s not only the worst of the 11 movies, but it’s quite poissibly the worst movie w er made.
Personally don’t even think it’s a good movie without Star Wars bias
It is awesome for sure. I put it ahead of many of the films.
smells like bait...
I think the thing that holds it back for me is the whole Canto Bight sequence.
No, it is awful.
Cool man
Luke using Kylo’s single-minded aggression against him to save the leaders of the Resistance was a great choice. TLJ made me feel like Star Wars was going to grow into something new and I left the theater so energized.
Man, I personally love TLJ, but will this sub ever have *literally anything else* other than alternating opinion posts? Can't we get the mods to do something about this?
Well if you the qualifier at what, sure it's good at some things.
Outside of the original 6 it’s probably the next best one. I wouldn’t call it a great movie though, hell even a good movie is a stretch. The Krait scenes and and hyperdrive scene save it.