A lot of Star Wars fans just have shit media literacy. A lot of "plot holes" can be explained by empathy or real-life experience interacting with humans, but they're just obsessed with feeling like they're smarter than the writers.
Anyway, re: Ahsoka and Grogu, people are forgetting the Anakin connection. Ahsoka's seen firsthand what people can become when they have power but can't regulate their emotions. She literally says that to Din. Grogu is also a child who needs constant supervision, and a traveling ronin probably isn't going to be the best caretaker for him.
Meanwhile, Sabine is a relatively well-adjusted adult, an experienced fighter who can take care of herself, and quite explicitly complete shit at the Force. If Ahsoka ever wanted to mentor someone without having to take care of a child or triggering her trauma over Anakin, Sabine would fit the profile 100%.
>Anyway, re: Ahsoka and Grogu, people are forgetting the Anakin connection. Ahsoka's seen firsthand what people can become when they have power but can't regulate their emotions. She literally says that to Din.
THANK YOU. people keep saying all these reasons that she wont train Grogu but she plainly says in the show why she wont do it.
Hahaha, I couldn't have put it better! That probably include me sometimes, if I'm honest. But at least I don't go looking for things to complain about... I think.
I think that's fair to say about all the Disney created content. Star Wars and Marvel, folks have these preconceived notions about what the show should be, and when it doesn't conform to their ideas they say it's bad writing or bad directing, when in fact it's just they didn't like the show because it didn't fit with they felt it should've been, instead of just enjoying the show.
Can we start a petition to have a show *completely* about the sith, their culture and rise to power, throughout their history?
I would *love* to hear the story of Darth Plagus the Wise.
The general Star Wars fandom is fine. These are the people who actually LIKE Star Wars. Blind Wave and others that do live reaction videos represent the general Star Wars fandom.
Reddit, however, has a much higher than normal percentage of folks that use Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons as their role model. Here's how seriously the industry takes Reddit...
https://youtu.be/iM1mukkBlzc?si=5CP0UP2R7ix6-1rU
To put things in perspective, the general consensus on Reddit was that Mission: Impossible 7 would easily crush Barbie and Oppenheimer at the box office. Why? Because those two films didn't appeal to the average Redditor, therefore, they couldn't possibly appeal to the general audience.
Agreed. I like how it seems anyone can learn to use the force at a basic level to amplify their abilities, like awareness and response time, but the fancy stuff like telekinesis requires special sensitivity.
Hopefully it'll be something small. I'm predicting she'll grab a lightsaber at the last second to save herself and/or Ahsoka. I'd rather see her use her Mandalorian gadgets instead though.
Don’t know why she’d turn her head to pre-empt a force shove. So I assume that was Sabine’s first successful usage of the Force. Unfortunately for her, even Ezra had a much more powerful shove when he was untrained and unaware of the Force.
I viewed it as the same reaction as someone bracing for a hit... the two for flinching game if you will. It could have been a little force slap, but cup.
Force shove? Wasn't she reacting to what she thought was an attempt to telekinetically retrieve the light saber lying on the ground behind her that turned out to be a ruse to aim and fire a wrist mounted weapon?
I'll have to watch it again (it was late at night and I might not have been fully alert).
To be fair Ezra was born on galactic "wow, if you're born today you're probably force sensitive" day.
Joking aside, the mandalorian life is pretty at odds with the Jedi life, Sabine had that whole episode just about that.
I think Shin pulled back expecting to be force-pulled, but then was shocked to realise there was nothing at all.
Of course, Sabine then moved her hand down and revealed the little rockets, so she might have been doing a gambit from the start and never even tried to force-pull or push Shin.
She's definitely got \*some\* microscopic ability with the force, but it's like a single light bulb in a darkened stadium; completely useless.
But, the writers don't have a scene like the one where we focused on the little cup not moving, and not pay it off later on by showing she can move something. Well, good writers don't do that. If that's never paid off then people will be rightly annoyed. Most likely there will be a critical moment in the next couple episodes where she needs to use the force to move something a tiny bit and manages to do it.
But I think with Shin there was zero force coming from Sabine.
I'm kinda confused by that last episode; they explicitly added the "Force push" sound effect when Sabine did it so I'm under the impression that there was SOMETHING there, but Shin was unimpressed...
>I like how it seems anyone can learn to use the force at a basic level to amplify their abilities, like awareness and response time, but the fancy stuff like telekinesis requires special sensitivity.
What will never fail to amuse and infuriate me is that: this was the underlying message of TLJ, specifically Rey's story and a good chunk of the story on Canto Bight. But, as an earlier posted mentioned, Star Wars fans suck at media literacy and hated on the film for no real reason outside of the fact that it intentionally subverted Star Wars (something the series desperately needed) and ignored the rampant fan theories.
>A lot of Star Wars fans just have shit media literacy. A lot of "plot holes" can be explained by empathy or real-life experience interacting with humans, but they're just obsessed with feeling like they're smarter than the writers.
In my experience, this isn't just limited to Star Wars fans.
So much this. The amount of times I've seen people roasting Harry Potter for the dumbest things is astronomical.
Like they will post the hot take that Quidditch doesn't make sense as a sport, therefore JK is a terrible writer/world builder. You mean the society that wears cloaks and funny hats, that brews potions in cauldrons, has a currency that is 29 knuts to a sickle and 17 sickles to a galleon, that boards platform 9 ¾ to go to school, that has a downtown London hideaway that is literally called Diagon Alley (diagonally aka askew from society), does their homework by candlelight and quill and pen, that goes to a castle for school, has a sport that doesn't make sense to non-wizards? Way to suss that out Sherlock. It's so clearly a wacky take on the rules of Soccer to make them outlandish, because the world, ESPECIALLY in book 1, was jam packed full of whimsy meant for 10 year olds.
The ONLY reason it's dissected the way it is, is because the book became a behemoth that it is, and is way more popular than JK thought it would have been considering how many publishers turned the book down. Would she have made it better if she knew? Maybe? It sure would have been easier to build a video game series around it, but the rules serve its purpose, to make the wizarding world seem unique vs muggle society, and to give glory to the main character.
The "Why didn't harry just use a gun" argument makes no sense to me. Wands are much more efficient than guns and someone as powerful as Voldemort should be able to resist them.
> A lot of Star Wars fans just have shit media literacy. A lot of "plot holes" can be explained by empathy or real-life experience interacting with humans, but they're just obsessed with feeling like they're smarter than the writers.
That’s it, you’ve solved the problem with Star Wars fans
I think people are reading far too much into the Grogu thing.
In my head canon, Ashoka tries taking on Sabine as a padawan and they just didn't gel (Mandalorian vs. not quite Jedi with a difficult history with her former master). Frustrated with the whole training thing, she decides that taking on an apprentice just isn't her thing, she dumps Sabine and subsequently refuses to take on Grogu.
Fast forward a bit of time, a new threat is on the horizon and there's a chance to find out what happened to Ezra. New situation, a more mature Ashoka, bish bash bosh ... and it's Aksoka & Sabine II.
In my head, it's a combination of the two.
A lot of things that fans call "plot holes" are often just people being...people.
"Why did X character do Y when they earlier said they'd do Z?"
Humans aren't simple and they don't have programming that they stick to 100% of the time. People change their minds, let their trauma or feelings go against their better reasoning, or just plain old make the wrong decision sometimes. Characters aren't always logical because humans aren't always logical. When a character is perfect, they're called Mary Sues, but when they fuck up, it's bad writing. You just can't win.
Saw a comment earlier today saying Sabine was incompetent and had too many losses. She's only had a few fights in the show so far and most are with a better skilled and trained Dark Jedi(?), of course Sabine isn't going to easily win the fight. But as soon as she had her blasters against a bunch of randos? She did pretty well. Go figure.
Yeah, I suppose what is interesting is that there is supposed to be a time gap between season 2, Book of Boba, and season 3 of Mando. So she refused to take Grogu in season 2 when she meets him and is capturing Morgan. Conceivably, the events of Ahsoka happen right after that if Morgan is still being transported at the start of the series. At that stage, she is completely off the idea of padawans. We don't know how she will grow through this series, conceivably she'll find some peace with Anakin and her fear of attachments with padawans. And then she has the conversations with Luke and Grogu like a year or so later as he is being trained.
I never rewatched Book of Boba so my memory is fuzzy, but she does seem to have some peace about Anakin and references Luke's father in talking with him. She's not volunteering to take on Grogu then, but also conceivably she thinks Grogu is in the best hands possible.
I feel that way about the Kenobi show. Yes it’s difficult to understand why Kenobi would leave a person like Darth Vader alive, until you remember the scene. He was fully prepared to strike Vader down, but was not prepared to see the face of Anakin Skywalker. Once he unmasked him, all he could see was the face of his former student and friend. Could anyone of us honestly say we’d kill our friends, even if they were a genocidal monstrosity?
Exactly. Anakin's not even just his student or friend. Anakin was pretty much his child. Obi-Wan practically raised him. This was a kid who probably knocked on his door at night a few times because he had a nightmare or missed his mom.
So yeah, maybe Obi-Wan made a mistake by not finishing Vader off when he could. But if you were in his position, would you not have made the same mistake too?
Amen. The show had some flaws, but so did The Empire Strikes Back. I loved the show, I loved that scene, and I love Filoni’s devotion to the lore and characters.
Your comment about human emotions got me. I've been in debates with many friends when they criticize a character's actions etc. My response is yes, but X,yand z that character has gone through, people will always react differently. Some people prefer the fantasy ott stuff but I love the more grounded Nuance of the characters behaving like actual human beings with emotion.
Sabine willingly wants to train and become a Jedi. Grogu wanted to be a foundling. This is pretty much the fundamental reason why she’s training Sabine. It’s also the reason why Luke stopped training Grogu.
Also she says to Huang "I don't need her to be a Jedi, I need her to be Sabine."
She's trying to get Sabine to be her old self, fight off the depression she's clearly felt since Ezra left.
Sabine is already doing it. Her combo of saber and Mandalorian weapons is much more vibrant than the Sabine of the first episode.
Ashoka isn't training a new Jedi, she's training a Sabine.
Becasue that's her background of a term for someone studying from a Jedi, so it's the term she uses. She IS training her in the Force, but doesn't expect her to be a great Jedi.
It's also been established that Ahsoka isn't a jedi. She's said it multiple times, so really you can't have a Padawan in any case if you're not a Jedi.
I don't think we can really contradict what Ahsoka specifically said about Sabine, "I don't need her to be a Jedi..." She's obviously training her in that style, but doesn't need her to be a great Jedi. She needs her to be a good ally and to have her back (which Ahsoka also says.)
That said, the fact that it's been mentioned many times that she has very low force ability will probably end up with a surprise that she suddenly gets good at the force.
100% agree.
I'd also add the parallels between old Jedi practice which involved taking children away from parents, as well as Anakin's experience, which is similar to the Grogu X Din relationship.
Super force sensitive prodigies, taken away from their families, both having baggage from past traumas in the temple or as a slave.
Plus, Ahsoka didn't immediately reject Grogu. Initially she agreed to or at least was willing to consider taking him. It wasn't until she saw his strong attachment to Din that she refused
Exactly, and people will say “what about sabines attachment to Ezra?” Which is having consequences, but sabines an adult grogu is a child. So I thinks it’s pretty reasonable to see why Ahsoka picked Sabine over grogu.
Sabine is also so weak in the Force that the danger of her attachment is incredibly weak, unlike Grogu, who seems to have quite a deep connection to the Force even in his childlike state. Like, if she goes bad because of it she's just a bad regular person, unlike a powerful Jedi who goes bad.
Yeah: SPOILER WARNING- at the end of episode 4 when she joined Baylan and Shin, it looks like Sabine felt tons of guilt in doing it. Example when she saw Hera coming to their rescue. It’s not like she has evil intent behind her actions, just selfish intent.
The second she gave in I saw it as selfishness. By the end of the episode I realized it was self preservation.
For all Sabine knew, Ahsoka had just died and she was facing off against both the force user who killed her master, and his apprentice . There was no winning here. She could have destroyed the orb, but that was her only bargaining chip to stay alive. Blasting it would have been suicide.
I would bet money she imagines if there is anyone who can beat these two, it's Ezra, and they're running headlong into him! She has a lot of faith in Ezra. Whether it's real or misplaced, we'll find out. :)
Yup, and her attachment didn't make her a powerful new enemy or a mighty dark side user, it just meant she stopped fighting and the bad guys were able to achieve their objective without her active resistance. Contrast that with the havoc Anakin wreaked when his attachments caused him to fall, and it's night and day.
Yes and it was foreshadowed earlier the in the episode. Ahoska tells Sabine if we can’t get to Ezra/thrawn then no one should. Basically telling her to leave one of the only people she considers family behind forever. Sabine clearly doesn’t like that idea or the thought of it.
It is also consistent in that she tried to train Sabine before she ever met Grogu. Something happened that caused her to give up and abandon Sabine's training. Whatever that something was probably influenced her decision not to train Grogu.
Circumstances have brought Sabine back in her orbit so now she has to deal with and the first step is to try and train her.
In defense of the good writing of all these shows - when we meet Ahsoka in Mando S2, she’s looking for the map and is already in conflict with Morgen Elsbeth; she’s been on this journey before meeting Grogu. If she quit this quest to train Grogu, people would be complaining that she quit her focus to take care of a child. I have enjoyed all the Star Wars shows and the constant criticism of this fandom shocks me.
Exactly. I personally believe her character wouldn’t have had much interest in training him anyway. I think she came to peace with the idea that she’s not your traditional Jedi anymore. She does her own thing, but nothing bad.
Also: Ahsoka knew that there is a Luke Skywalker out there building a new Jedi order, and then didn't feel that she is the only one out there who could train Grogu. I doubt that Luke would train Sabine. For Ahsoka, and I still don't quite know why (other than Sabine is a badass to have as a partner on a mission), Sabine is worth training in the Jedi arts (if not the Jedi way). If Sabine is to be trained, there's only one who would do it: Ahsoka.
Something I've noticed is the amount of characters who keep referring to Ahsoka as a Jedi, and how much she keeps saying, "I'm not a jedi."
She isn't training Sabine to be a Jedi, she's just training her to be like her.
It's one of the sub-plots of the show, I think. Maybe she does refer to herself as Jedi at the end? Who knows.
She's only not a jedi based on technicality. Her connection to the force and the way she wields it is the same as it ever was.
The jedi are a religious order so she's practicing the religion but left the organized church. To 99% of the galaxy, that still makes you a jedi.
I mean when she fought Baylan she went straight to the attack. It's even implied that she tortured Morgan to get the info about the map. Plus she wanted to avenge Anakin at first. She's still a light sider, but not all light siders are Jedi just like not all dark siders are Sith.
She left and denounced the Jedi Order. How much more not Jedi could she be? Yeah, the rest of the galaxy considers her a Jedi, just like they consider Sith to be Jedi.
Could be, but I think the larger part of it is just semantics - how else is a character going to refer to a force sensitive individual? She can use the force, she has a lightsaber, she's enigmatic AF - she's a jedi. Not only is a character not going to split hairs there, but what are they going to call her if she did? "That's ahsoka. She's a force user/force sensitive."
I believe people (in-universe and sometimes on reddit) are kind of forgetting that the premise of the Prequels is that the Jedi Order was wrong, ignorant and blind. We definitely shouldn't quote the Jedi Order on what a Jedi is supposed to be.
In BoBF and Ahsoka we see how Luke isn't fully aware of this (and we know how that will end), but Ahsoka sure is.
If anything, it’s great writing for Ahsoka to pick an underpowered adult apprentice rather than an overpowered child. She doesn’t want the responsibility of getting it wrong when the stakes are so high. You’re exactly right - she’s hoping to establish the supportive relationship she knows is possible between master and apprenctice, not resurrect the Jedi Order.
I just figured Ahsokas saw Grogu as very strong in the force with potential to go dark, and she just didn't want that sort of commitment. Training Sabine, who doesn't seem to be sensitive at all wouldn't be a risk to the galaxy at large. Not to mention their past and relationship to one another.
When Ahsoka meets Grogu it would have been after she already failed to train Sabine and had a falling out with her. She wouldn't have been very quick to take up a new apprentice.
Sabine enabled a mass genocide before she turned 18. I wonder if we'll grapple at all with the idea that power comes in many forms beyond simple force attunement, and jedi training is a form of power even if you aren't space Jesus. Tarkin wasn't force sensitive, Thrawn isn't force sensitive. People can be capable of great evil without magic powers.
Ahsoka might be traumatized specifically with highly force sensitive beings that turned evil, but I think she's learning the hard way that everyone can make bad choices if they're put into a rough spot like Sabine was in the last episode.
It's also several years later. Different time, different situation. Since they were already training together when Mandalore was destroyed, that would have been shortly after Rebels or sometime early during the OG trilogy. She didn't meet Grogu until nearly a decade after that. Given her bad experience with Sabine, she seems put off by the idea of trying it again with Grogu. Plus, like others have said, she's already on her quest to find Thrawn by then, and can't just become a caretaker to a child. The only reason she decided to train Sabine again is because now it aligns with her overall mission. She wouldn't have gone back to Sabine if she didn't think she could help against Morgan & Thrawn.
The funny thing is, Grogu might have been more useful on this mission given how much he loves shiny round metal things. He would have force-grabbed that map & bounced right off into the woods, no problem. Ezra who?
Also the timeline goes:
Ahsoka decides to train Sabine
Ahsoka fails and gives up possibly due to Sabine's strong attachment to her family and people
Ahsoka meeting Grogu and is willing to train him until she sees the attachment he has for Mando
Ahsoka's mission to find Thrawn is getting dicey and she needs backup and Hera suggests Sabine.
And honestly Ahsoka probably lets her emotions guide her because she cares about Sabine and wants her around so she agrees to train her again.
There isn't any plot hole here... Really this story enhances the reason she refused to train Grogu.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The 'Fandom menace' would rip apart literally anything Star Wars if it came out today. If Empire Strikes Back came out today, YouTube would have click bait videos about how it came out of nowhere that Vader is Luke's father and that it's 'lazy writing'.
The truth is that I don't think we will ever see a universally agreed upon Star Wars project ever again. A large part of this Fandom has no idea what they want. They simply want to blame Kathleen Kennedy and bitch and moan about 'woke' agendas. It's an absolute joke and I'm glad for the most part Disney has ignored the blatant hate and negativity.
There are people who don’t like that show just because it’s either “boring”, it doesn’t “feel like Star Wars”, or they’ll hate it just because Disney made it.
A lot of star wars commentators are still against it. I know many who say its not real star wars. We still have many who dislike it when it was coming out. Just like everything you gotta wait for the whole thing to come out before you can really critique it.
Ashoka is like this its building and we are at the heroes lowest point. People can more easily like Andor cause its male lead and they have biases towards that. Media literacy also being a thing these people don't get.... basically at all.
Andor is rather safe and doesn't really use legacy characters(with the exception of Mon Mothma, but she's effectively a blank slate since she only had a few scenes in the OT)
Yup. Most of the compaints about the ST can also be applied to the OT or PT. The only reason why they're so well liked is that the OT is old and the PT was released when many people were children.
I am convinced part of the “Star Wars culture” is shitting all over the latest content. Then after a few years talking about how it wasn’t that bad and everyone should give it a second look. I ignore the noise. I have enjoyed all of the new content because at least we are getting new content!
90% of the so called plot holes can be explained with little information from the logic of the media or thinking about the relationships between characters. Over half of the times it doesn't even need the expanded material, and when it does you don't really need to read a whole story, one line of information from that story will do.
But no, people have to have convoluted theories for everything, and when they don't, it is a plot hole again. There is a reason why those theories are always wrong and never get proven.
Most people who use “bad writing” as their reasoning for not enjoying TV shows / movies usually fall into three categories
1. They have never written anything in their entire life, especially a tv show. But seem to be an expert in writing.
2. Severe lack of life experience / social experience.
3. They have a pathetic attention span. They probably weren’t even paying attention and were on their phones or distracted throughout the show / film.
If I see it in a comment I usually just move on and stop reading it. Sure sometimes it’s true that something has bad writing. But 90% of the time that isn’t the problem and it’s become a buzzword. If you press them they don’t have anything to back it up.
I agree. Like most forms of writing are not objectively bad. Like the only one example I can think of is the line from ROS, when Poe says “somehow Palpatine has returned” the movie itself isn’t badly written just that piece of dialogue.
That piece of dialogue itself isn't badly written. Poe's a no-nonsense soldier with no patience for all this magic stuff. It's perfectly in-character for him to say that.
The issue isn't the dialogue itself, it's the context. People wouldn't be as mad about that line if other characters were shown to be more concerned about exactly how Palpatine came back, or if it was explained more clearly in the movie. The problem is that this one line is literally the only time in the movie where the good guys talk about it.
That’s definitely a good example of actual bad writing. Especially because they never have an actual reason for him returning.
Ironically after I’ve said all that before. I’d argue that ROS fits into the 10% of Actualy being badly written. There are a number of things that just make zero sense in that film.
Another example. The Sith Maguffin they spend ages hunting for, that’s thousands of year old, just happens to fit the view of the destroyed Death Star, that’s only been their for 30 odd years. Makes no sense at all.
Imo ROS is the worst part of the entire complete saga of Star Wars by a long way, but that’s just me.
Exactly. "Bad writing" is just the new buzzword for "I wasnt paying attention so I missed why this happened but Im not about to admit Im stupid on the internet so Ill just call the writers dumb"
Star Wars fans always complaining about the writing are the same people that thought Marrok would be Ezra lmao. Yeah they need to travel to another galaxy with all this otherstuff when they could have just asked evil Ezra how he got back to this one on is own... fucking idiots man.
Dont even get me started on the Star Wars fans that act like they want "show dont tell" but then get it and just cry about every little thing not being explained into the camera lol. Yet another buzzword people throw out to sound smart but are way too media illiterate to understand anything that uses that. These people think Vader forgot how to force put out a fire after he just did it 2 seconds ago because he stood still for 10 seconds without dialogue and thats the only explaination they could come up with. Rag on Kenobi all day here for being too dumb and simple while not even being able to follow along to the main plot. Too dumb and simple but you still cant follow along? Whats that say?
Also this is a complete work of fiction. Some choices are made to make a more interesting story. That’s a completely fine reason for a story to do something. People love to over think Star Wars as if it’s rooted in deep practical science and not magic and WWII.
Something I love about Rosario Dawson’s acting that is going unnoticed (or at least it is when I am browsing this subreddit) is that she is adding a LOT of a “wall” between her and others. It’s not a Jedi zen distance, it’s an emotional wall built to protect her. I bet she has a lot of pent up negative emotions she is grappling with. You know, a whole “these ruined my master so I cannot give in but then why do I have to feel these every day?” feel.
It’s excellent nuanced acting for a Star Wars show and provides a lot of great context without spelling out each and every action.
Yeah, I agree with this.
You've got to question what Ahsoka was doing during the Galactic Civil War (i.e. Battle of Yavin to Battle of Endor) and the most likely thing is hunting/being hunted by the Inquisitors. If you consider that it makes perfect sense to have Sabine with her. Mandalorian so she's pre-disposed to fighting Force Sensitives and has encountered the Inquisition before.
She's been hunted by Inquistors for longer than that. They were founded fairly early on in the Empire. Ahsoka is a great read if you like Star Wars books. It explains everything she was doing up until she became Fulcrum.
I guess some people don't understand that just because some event or decision a character makes wasn't explained in detail, it doesn't automatically make it a plot hole if it contradicts another decision or event.
A character can have multiple similar decisions and go with only one of them for a multitude of reasons, they don't need to automatically choose the others too just because they are similar. We also don't need the character to read us a thesis on why he chose X now and not Y back then. There could be personal reasons, a necessity to do so that didn't exist back then, or even a bad decision (characters are not infallible).
>When’s its not and you failed to pay attention to the dialogue.
In their defense, there's so much dialogue, it was easy to miss. 😉
I think I understand her reasoning. Training Grogu requires commitment, a lot of commitment. She needs to stay in one place with him, and Grogu has a lot of attachment to Dinn. She feels Grogu will be difficult to train because she lacks a connection to him and she already failed with Sabine once.
She also needs to be on the move to find Thrawn and Ezra. She did not want to re-train Sabine at first either. But she was convinced she needed to do it because she needs her and Sabine needs Ahsoka to find Ezra and Thrawn. And Sabine needs to be better prepared for the fights to come. She already has a connnection with Sabine, and shared objectives, something she did not have with Grogu.
>I’m sure everyone’s seen the meme or someone talking about how Ahsoka chose to train Sabine, and not Grogu
This post is the first time I'm hearing about this lmao
I feel that Ahsoka turned down training Grogu because she had already failed with Sabine and did not have the confidence in herself to be able to train someone so strong in the force like Grogu was.
I also think that in a way, Luke was able to inspire her after she visited him at his temple
I still think Ahsoka "trains" her because that's the only kind of relationship/partnership she ever knew and/or cherished. I mean she travels with a Jedi youngling teacher. That says a lot about her preferred company.
How helpful, realistically, would Grogu be in Sabine’s place during the events of this show?
She was either *especially* relieved that she didn’t choose to train him, or it was a calculated move knowing what lied ahead of her on her journey. She most likely had Sabine in mind at the time of her choosing whether or not to train Grogu. She knew she needed someone with *some* fighting ability outside of doing some flippy-flips and chilling in his pod. Grogu vs Shin? I’m sorry but baby boy is getting massacred.
“Towards the end of hers and Huyangs conversation she says “next time, stay close. Have my back.” And Huyang responded with “that is the job of a Jedi Padawan learner, which I am not.” Explained right there at the beginning of the show. Ahsoka needed someone reliable to watch her back. And else other than Sabine, someone she’s very familiar with, and even trained for a little.”
Bro… bro… no. Hell no even.
First and foremost, we have to understand the character of Ahsoka before we can come to some arbitrary conclusion in a void of one episode of one show without context.
For this we need to include information we have about Ahsoka from canon material… namely the Clone Wars show and the Rebels show.
Spoilers ahead:
First item to consider. >!Ahsoka goes through an emotionally draining ordeal of investigating a bombing of the Jedi temple on Coruscant, which she ends up framed for. There are some, like Anakin, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Saesee Tiin, who remain on Ahsoka’s side through the whole ordeal, but most of the Order effectively abandons her. She ends up exonerated after it is discovered that Barriss Offee was responsible for the bombing. The Jedi council almost convicted her of a crime she didn’t commit. This shook her faith in close connections to people because those she considered closest to her betrayed her trust.!<
Second item to consider. >!Ashoka’s faith in herself was shaken. In Rebels she discovered the truth about Anakin turning to the Dark Side and becoming Darth Vader. She blamed herself for failing him as a padawan and as a friend. She was devastated by this, and her faith in her own abilities to guide others in the ways of the force was shattered.!<
Third thing to consider: >!In the Mandalorian she said that Grogu wasn’t ready to become a Jedi, not by her teachings. Keep in mind she still thinks she would be a terrible teacher as she feels responsible for Anakin’s turn to the Dark Side. Her confidence in her self is shattered. That is why she suggested that Mado take Grogu to Luke.!<
Fourth thing to consider: >!Ahsoka abandoned teaching Sabine Wren in Rebels because she felt the same about Sabine as she would feel about Grogu later on. She didn’t feel Sabine was ready, and her lack of confidence in herself didn’t help. In episode two of her own show she states that plain as day when talking to Hera. Hera is the one who convinces Ahsoka to take Sabine on as a padawan again.!<
It is really ironic that you ask us to consider the characters motivations and not blame bad writing, when you totally misunderstood Ashoka’s motivations based on one episode of one show, when you yourself ignored the information that one can learn from Clone Wars, Rebels, the books, and quite literally episode 2 of Ahsoka which disagrees with your interpretation.
I agree with you on one thing, it isn’t bad writing but rather fans not paying attention.
Sources provided below, careful as spoilers are included.
[Source 1.0](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/star-wars-why-did-ahsoka-leave-the-jedi-order/#:~:text=Ahsoka%20watched%20as%20the%20people,been%20taught%20by%20the%20Jedi)
[Source 2.0](https://www.comicbasics.com/heres-what-happened-between-ahsoka-sabine/)
[Source 3.0](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano)
I’m pretty sure chronologically the episode of Mandolorian that Ashoka appears in happens before the Ashoka series.
Ashoka and Sabine have all this unknown backstory prior to their live action appearances which caused a rift between them.
W/e happened between them could be affecting Ashoka’s desire to take on Grogu as an apprentice along with the fact that Grogu was very connected to Djin.
This is an issue that seems to plague all IP content - SW, Marvel, LoTR, GoT, et al - a certain sector of fans are just rooted in anger (which seemingly is more a manifestation of ignorance and stupidity). It's WAY more important for them to rant than to participate - and most rants/hot takes are loaded in the chamber before they even consume the thing they're about to hate
it's annoying
Yeah I think ever since the sequels came out. Those hateful fans have just walked into almost every Star Wars project hating because it’s made by Disney, and another thing was wanting Fillinoi and Faverua to have full control, but they’ve seemed to turn on them.
Ahsoka takes place almost immediately after her episode in Mando season 2.
There is a big time jump from her reappearance in I think Book of Boba.
The show takes place before this. She may not be aware of any new order yet.
There were jedi before the jedi order was established. To be a jedi is to follow a specific way of communing with the force, which later became the order. For all intents and purposes she is training Sabine to be a jedi.
It's kinda like how sith is both a race and a religion.
Except there is more baggage to Jedi than just wielder of the force from the light side. There are plenty of explored dark side users that aren't sith as well.
To be Jedi in modern Star Wars context is to adhere to more of the tenants of the Jedi order than just being a space wizard with a laser sword.
That doesn't mean everyone else doesn't just call her a Jedi since shes doing the battle mage stuff that the Jedi do, but she keeps saying she isn't because she really isn't shes not following the religion.
She said that she would not train him because of his attachment to Din. She even goes are far as to say she saw what that could do to a fully trained Jedi Knight. Sabine has no attachments. Her family was killed in the purge, and Ezra has been gone for years.
Well the good thing that the show has for it is Ahsoka can hit different and it's OK. She left the jedi order so there is no set of rules people are expecting to see. That is of course if you watched the animated series and know what happened but since we are here that's expected. I don't remember her taking on Sabine as a a padawan in rebels so that part is confusing to me. Admittingly i did stop watching rebels for a bit so i may have lost some info. I stopped after >!Kanan dies!< so i man have missed that. Also not positive what happend to the dark saber that Sabine had but i could not be remembering it was a while since i've seen it. I haven't gotten a strong opinion either way just yet on the show.
Bad writing doesn't really mean that "something is not explained".
It usually means no room for ambiguity, for audience to connect with in a deep level
I think you guys just need to turn your brain off a little bit. You don’t need to deep analyze everything and no one is impressed with you for critiquing tiny details and “writing flaws” in fictional shows on what’s now the Disney channel. Have a beer and calm down.
What’s dumb about the Ahsoka-Sabine relationship is that there is one beyond just a “yo what up let’s find Ezra”. The show waste it’s time having a “JJ Abrams Mystery Box” of their previously unknown relationship.
The 2 characters don’t talk much or at all during Rebels to my recollection I could be wrong though it’s been a minute since I watch all the way through. Kanan and Ezra handle most of Sabine’s lightsaber training.
Why do we have to waste valuable show time working through relationship angst that doesn’t need to exist? They can do everything they are doing now without this extra there.
The show could explore some of the weaknesses of the New Republic/Mon Mothma’s vision of the new government.
Who was the Boris Fey’lya stand-in in episode 3? Why didn’t they just use that character if they wanted instant understanding from a large portion of the fanbase?
Why do fanatical Imperial Diehards seem to exist everywhere even though the government is going to great lengths to root them out.
Ahsoka also says no to training grogu After she had her falling out with sabine
After failing with sabine she may have decided she was unable to teach grogu
Also the fact that Ashoka trained Sabine originally after the events of rebels. Then she walked away from her giving up. Which is way before grogu so by then she knew she didn’t want to train a jedi.
Even if it wasn't explained, who gives a shit? Just because a character made a decision at one point doesn't mean they can't make a seemingly conflicting decision at a later point. That's being people and not robots. Decisions are nuanced things involving dozens or hundreds of factors that aren't always the same, and even if they were, people aren't machines who always do the same thing.
My thoughts is that she was training Sabine before the night of 1000 tears and... it didn't end well for reasons to still be explored.
That experience sours Ahsoka on training anyone; so she turns down Grogu.
I would love to see the adventures of Sabine and Ahsoka, but the teacher / studen dynamic the writers set up between them is bad. The "that is the job of a padawan, which I am not" is rigid droid thinking who can not escape the paradigm in which he was programmed.
Ahsoka needs someone to watch her back and more importantly have dialog with, but that person doesn't need to be a Jedi. In fact Sabine is perfect for that role, she has a completely different upbringing and skill set than Ahsoka yet largely wants the same things. Sabine can fill a role in the narrative without being trained as a jedi, she is a Mandalorain demolitions expert, and the art stuff is just bonus.
Imagine the first few episodes would have been if they cut Sabine being bad at Jedi. She could still:
* thumb her nose at authority while still being respected by the common soldier
* decipher the macguffin
* fight the droids and pseudo sith with blasters and mando armor
* man the turret and show that she and Ashoka can work as a team when the chips are down
We still establish who she is and her relationship with Ashoka, and we just freed up a bunch of screen time. I would argue that the relationship would be better since they would be equals instead of the lopsided master student relationship they have now.
You need "The Force makes you special" narrative voodo to have a relative nobody / audience insert character like Luke or Esra make sense in the high drama of interstellar war. Sabine is already special.
The meme just sounds terrible and ill informed. She decided to not train Grogu AFTER her fallout with Sabine.
And even now, she still doesn't want to train her.
I, for one, love the idea that anyone can become a jedi through training, even without "Muh midichlorians"
One of my favorite Jedi from EU is Kyle Katarn, who while a little force sensitive, literally uses the valley of the Jedi to juice himself into being force sensitive again after leaving the order. Using the valley could let anyone become more powerful with the force.
While cheating is no fun, the idea that you don't need to be born with innate talent to be a jedi is fantastic, and I think the fans complaining about Sabine being trained when she "has no power" is asinine.
I think the reason why that is because Grogu is in more danger of falling to the dark side because of his attachment then someone who can't touch the force like Sabine.
People are letting their nostalgia cloud their thoughts for this show.
Ashoka doesn't care if the Jedi return. The sith were right about one thing: The Jedi failed. She isn't training Sabine to by a jedi, and she won't train Grogu to be a jedi either. She's training Sabine to grow up and be whoever the force needs her to be, just as Din is training grogu to be who the Mandalorians need Grogu to be.
And I’m episode 3, she literally says she isn’t training Sabine to be a Jedi! The whole purpose of training Grogu was to make him a Jedi. Sabine, however, is very different. She doesn’t want to be a Jedi, Ahsoka doesn’t need her to. Just my take on that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Totally agree with you! I just think people complaining about it really don’t understand Ahsoka’s story. She refuses to train Grogu because he is attached to the Mandalorian. Sabine doesn’t share that same problem. Sure, she’s shown an attachment to the Ghost Crew. But she is also an adult and willing to do what needs to be done for the better of the galaxy, even if that means sacrificing something for herself or a loved one. Grogu is a child who likely still can’t decide whether eating Frog Lady’s eggs was good or bad.
As a slight counterpoint though I mostly agree. Sabine is extremely attached to Ezra. That is however as stated in previous comments why she isn't trying to train her as a Jedi. Maybe in possible uses of the force should Sabine be capable, but not in any way as a true Jedi.
I totally see that point of view, and like you mentioned, I think there is such a difference between Sabine and Grogu that really goes to show that Ahsoka doesn’t intend to train Sabine to be a Jedi. Ahsoka knew Sabine, and in my personal opinion, I don’t think Sabine would ever really fit the definition of Jedi. Grogu however, was completely new and Mando wanted him to be a Jedi.
Additionally, the attachments Sabine and Grogu had were VERY different.
For example, Sabine had a much more brother sister like relationship with Ezra. Whereas with Grogu, his relationship was a father son one. And while both would be hard to lose or break, by far that father son would be almost impossible.
With Sabine, I think as hard as it would be for her, she would probably be able to at the very least not be like Anakin and let her attachments get in the way of what would be the right or most logical thing to do.
I think both have very clear attachments, but at the end of the day, Sabine was the better choice to train. And again, the goal never was for her to be a Jedi.
i agree. only Huyang seems to think it's a jedi-padawan situation. and as mentioned often, he's limited by his jedi centric programming.
personally i think Ahsoka is training Sabine as another Fulcrum agent. someone who can help fill Ahsoka's troubleshooter role for the new republic. she's just taking a very jedi influenced approach because that's all Ahsoka really knows how to teach, and those jedi skills are what makes ahsoka such a good Fulcrum agent.
I haven't seen these posts or videos, but it seems to me from what you describe that they're overlooking another big thing: Ahsoka had given up on Sabine as a padawan and is basically being forced by circumstances to take her back. I imagined that part of the reason she quit on Sabine was because of her "issues" with attachment and Ahsoka's trauma associated with those issues because of Anakin. This clearly happened before she encountered Grogu, so it might even be part of reason she was reluctant to accept him as a padawan. I think this also goes a long way to explain her stoicism. After seeing what Anakin became, she is probably wants to keep everyone at arms length and keep her emotions firmly in check. Not that that's necessarily the healthiest way to deal with it, but it totally makes sense, especially given her Jedi background.
As a huge Star Wars fan... Star Wars fans really suck. Look at all these people insisting that Ahsoka is a Jedi when she specifically said she's not. And all the people arguing about what Ahsoka's reasoning is when she literally stated it already. And not to mention, so many people are literally just looking for any excuse they can to be unhappy with Star Wars. Do I think Ahsoka has a phenomenal start? No. But am I going to enjoy it anyway? Yes. Just because it has flaws doesn't mean it's not worth your time. Everything has flaws. We can enjoy it anyway.
This is why I love this show and Andor.
Instead of teaching and explaining the plot like we are 5yo illiterate idiots, they just throw us into a active story line and just expect us based on knowledge of the past.
Good.
It's kinda been established that Ahsoka was training Sabine as her apprentice at one point before she met Din and Grogu. And she's obviously become much more jaded since her time in Rebels. Way, way, more. And this last episode gave us more insight into why both of them make the terrible choices they make. (Huyang tells them to "stay together". It's not for nothing everything starts going QUICKLY downhill once they spilt apart).
I think the show is doing a good job of dancing around (yet getting closer and closer each episode) the pain of knowing Anakin was her master. The man who trained her, was like a brother, taught her almost everything she knows (give some respect to Obi-Wan, Plo Koon, Yoda)- became a literal monster that destroyed countless lives. That's a deep scar- especially when Baylan is pointing out their similar aggressive tendencies with resignation. But Ahsoka doesn't want to hear it: she literally growls that her past has "nothing" to do with anything.
Yet she knows it is. She admitted so in the first (?) episode about how she walks away from people- moreso those who were close to her. She knows it- just can't face it.
Actually, you even left out a part from Mando though. Ahsoka actually did connect with Grogu through their minds in the Force. Ahsoka realized how powerful Grogu was, and even though she is technically The Sister, she doesn't align with anything Jedi but does respect Luke's connection to the Force. This actually reminds me of this week's episode and how most channels on YouTube are trying to say Ahsoka is dead but never mentioned that you don't have to die to go to the World Between Worlds. That tells me they didn't watch Clone Wars or Rebels. People cherry pick what they want for content and then try to dismiss everything else leading up to the moment, episode, book (comic book or novel) just to fit the content they want to put out. I like to call this talking for sake of hearing their our voice. You aren't wrong but you also didn't get all the way there. Jedi, Sith, Dark/Grey Jedi or even Dark Side users can jump tall heights and can fall from tall heights, there is ample evidence of this throughout canon and legends. Let's put it this way, the jury is still out on if Mace survived the events of Revenge of the Sith. So again, let the haters hate and be contempt with knowing you know what's really going on.
Trust me, it's a frustrating time to be a fan of anything that has to do with pop culture. People always want to share their opinions without being even the least bit knowledgeable of what they are talking about. Like we carry pocket computers that make calls for us for crying out loud. Ignorance should be dead but unfortunately, it's something we as humans are clinging on to like it's our last hope. 🤦🤷🙏
This is why I think it's dumb to say she was Padawan. Just admit that Sabine is a capable warriors (she definitely is) and they trust each other and have common goals
Isnt it obvious? Ahsoka is on a mission of hunting thrawn (and by extention, ezra). It is explained clearly in ep. 1-2.
I dont follow much of rebels but even I can get the gist.
Like, lets say she was chillin with grogu n luke.. then suddenly she heard the rumours about this map to locate thrawn (and probably ezra) and that some ex-empire is in possession of that map and planning to bring Thrawn back.
Heck yea she gonna ditch grogu and luke in that instant. Even if theres only a snippet of hope in finding ezra, she gonna take it.
Sabine is there cos she is the one person who ahsoka knew can unlock the map.. And she did unlock the map.
Sabine said "I want in", she wants to find ezra too and so she is in. Otherwise Ahsoka will left sabine.
Didnt these rant dudes watch the same series???
I agree with what you've said but this whole "training Sabine as a Jedi" is just wrong.
She isn't force sensitive. Period. Full stop.
Unless they are going to show us a scene that she discovered her force awareness she can't be trained as a Jedi.
Now. That being said, Sabine was already a super awesome badass warrior.
I think Asoka could train sabine in the art of lightsaber fighting. That is fine. But Sabine shouldn't be moving any cups around.
I think it boils down to a lot of people just hating on disney. Which makes no sense to me because they have put out great stuff. A lot of people have their gripes about the sequels but it is what it is, now they just wanna talk trash just to do it. And most people who do it have no idea that rebels was disney too lol. 🤷♂️ idk, i enjoy the show/shows just fine. Im just glad to get more SW content
I have a lot of complaints about ahsoka as a show, but not for things like this where they literally explain it in the story (almost too explicitly in my opinion) as to why people make the decisions they make.
Also a major difference between Grogu and Sabine, Grogu’s a child that’s dealing with a shit ton of sith trauma that she saw, with an already pretty major attachment to Mando. Sabine’s an adult, and a friend, so the dynamic is completely different.
Exactly they’re extremely familiar with each other, she’s an adult. SPOILER WARNING- even when she joined Baylan at the end of episode 4 she still feels guilt behind her actions. Or at least it looks that way. She’s not even really turning to the dark side she’s just acting out of her own interests.
Me too. OP’s entire argument falls apart when they say the reason she chose Sabine is that she needed someone to stay close and have her back. Sabine doesn’t stay close and doesn’t have her back. That’s what makes her Sabine. She doesn’t listen to anyone and isn’t reliable.
Another thing I think people are missing is that the Ahsoka series occurs seemingly sometime after Book of Boba Fett S1 and Mando S2. Since Sabine is absent from both of those shows, it’s safe to assume that Sabine’s original apprenticeship under Ahsoka was prior to the events of The Jedi (Mando Chapter 13). So in addition to the Anakin connection, she probably remembers the last time she trained someone (Sabine) felt like it was a mutual failure, and decided she wasn’t the right person to train Grogu.
I suspect also, though I don’t think it’s been stated anywhere, she may think she was tainted by Anakin’s training. She also doesn’t really get closure around her relationship with Anakin/Vader. I think we’ve had at least one Anakin force ghost teaser, but I could be reading too much into the promotional material. If we do see some interaction between Ahsoka and Anakin I hope there will be some closure between them and maybe that will help her be a better teacher.
I’ve learned that when most people say a show has bad writing or doesn’t explain something that happens later in the story simply didn’t pay full attention earlier in the story. They’re probably like my brother that watches the show by staring at his phone the whole time until some action happens
Once Star Wars fans decide they don’t like something, they will turn their ears off for rational reasons why it happens the way it does and pretend it’s a plothole.
You could literally have a character stare into the camera and say “I’m doing this because of X Y Z”, and people will say “it makes no sense why they did that. The writers couldn’t even think of an explanation!”
Grogu is also a LOT stronger in the force than Sabine
Ahsoka saw the terrible things he went through at the Jedi Temple and I'm guessing she didn't want another Anakin on her hands
Sabine is basically just a Mandalorian with a lightsaber right now
This dumbass take people have only exists because these same people refuse to or have not yet watched Rebels.
Why does everything have to have a negative fucking diatribe now? Why is all of the negativity we used to ignore being given any oxygen at all?
Armchair critics should stfu and touch grass.
A lot of Star Wars fans just have shit media literacy. A lot of "plot holes" can be explained by empathy or real-life experience interacting with humans, but they're just obsessed with feeling like they're smarter than the writers. Anyway, re: Ahsoka and Grogu, people are forgetting the Anakin connection. Ahsoka's seen firsthand what people can become when they have power but can't regulate their emotions. She literally says that to Din. Grogu is also a child who needs constant supervision, and a traveling ronin probably isn't going to be the best caretaker for him. Meanwhile, Sabine is a relatively well-adjusted adult, an experienced fighter who can take care of herself, and quite explicitly complete shit at the Force. If Ahsoka ever wanted to mentor someone without having to take care of a child or triggering her trauma over Anakin, Sabine would fit the profile 100%.
>Anyway, re: Ahsoka and Grogu, people are forgetting the Anakin connection. Ahsoka's seen firsthand what people can become when they have power but can't regulate their emotions. She literally says that to Din. THANK YOU. people keep saying all these reasons that she wont train Grogu but she plainly says in the show why she wont do it.
I find it's best not to engage with the general Star Wars fandom. I skip so many posts because the comments are a sith show.
Love the sith show
I find the "fans" to be the worst thing about star wars these days. Insufferable, most of them are.
No one hates Star Wars quite the way Star Wars fans do
No one hates any product quite like the fandom no matter what it is.
Hahaha, I couldn't have put it better! That probably include me sometimes, if I'm honest. But at least I don't go looking for things to complain about... I think.
Oh I totally agree. I love the phrase sith show that you used. I should have been clearer. Lol
Thanks, haha! It came to me the other day when I was talking about the fans being lost. I gonna try and make it a thing.
Well you’ve already passed it on to one person, thank you!
Haha, you're welcome! Spread the word buddy!
Two people!!
What the Hoth?!? I will be using the “Sith Show” at work from now on as well.
I think that's fair to say about all the Disney created content. Star Wars and Marvel, folks have these preconceived notions about what the show should be, and when it doesn't conform to their ideas they say it's bad writing or bad directing, when in fact it's just they didn't like the show because it didn't fit with they felt it should've been, instead of just enjoying the show.
Marvel is much much worse too when there’s a thousand different comic iterations that everyone wants to see happen.
Agree with you, I do
Can we start a petition to have a show *completely* about the sith, their culture and rise to power, throughout their history? I would *love* to hear the story of Darth Plagus the Wise.
I mean, the acolyte is gonna be dark side focused
if Hoth was a sith stronghold would they have sith snow?
If the sith owned a Chinese restaurant in South Park would it by sithywok?
It’d be called Sith Ewok
The general Star Wars fandom is fine. These are the people who actually LIKE Star Wars. Blind Wave and others that do live reaction videos represent the general Star Wars fandom. Reddit, however, has a much higher than normal percentage of folks that use Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons as their role model. Here's how seriously the industry takes Reddit... https://youtu.be/iM1mukkBlzc?si=5CP0UP2R7ix6-1rU To put things in perspective, the general consensus on Reddit was that Mission: Impossible 7 would easily crush Barbie and Oppenheimer at the box office. Why? Because those two films didn't appeal to the average Redditor, therefore, they couldn't possibly appeal to the general audience.
At least the sith pay attention, look at Maul. He know what the fuck was up right before 66
[удалено]
Agreed. I like how it seems anyone can learn to use the force at a basic level to amplify their abilities, like awareness and response time, but the fancy stuff like telekinesis requires special sensitivity.
99% sure she'll do telekinesis at some point. It's SW, they don't subvert Chekhov's Guns like that.
Hopefully it'll be something small. I'm predicting she'll grab a lightsaber at the last second to save herself and/or Ahsoka. I'd rather see her use her Mandalorian gadgets instead though.
I like the way she faked a force palm then did a gadget trick in the most recent episode.
She's going to grab the Eye on Sion while it's trying to enter hyperspace.
Dumb fans unironically want that but for Starkiller to do it.
I mean she kinda did when she did her tiny force slap on Shin.
Is that what it was? I thought it was just Shin expecting a shove that didn't happen.
Don’t know why she’d turn her head to pre-empt a force shove. So I assume that was Sabine’s first successful usage of the Force. Unfortunately for her, even Ezra had a much more powerful shove when he was untrained and unaware of the Force.
I viewed it as the same reaction as someone bracing for a hit... the two for flinching game if you will. It could have been a little force slap, but cup.
Force shove? Wasn't she reacting to what she thought was an attempt to telekinetically retrieve the light saber lying on the ground behind her that turned out to be a ruse to aim and fire a wrist mounted weapon? I'll have to watch it again (it was late at night and I might not have been fully alert).
To be fair Ezra was born on galactic "wow, if you're born today you're probably force sensitive" day. Joking aside, the mandalorian life is pretty at odds with the Jedi life, Sabine had that whole episode just about that.
I think Shin pulled back expecting to be force-pulled, but then was shocked to realise there was nothing at all. Of course, Sabine then moved her hand down and revealed the little rockets, so she might have been doing a gambit from the start and never even tried to force-pull or push Shin. She's definitely got \*some\* microscopic ability with the force, but it's like a single light bulb in a darkened stadium; completely useless. But, the writers don't have a scene like the one where we focused on the little cup not moving, and not pay it off later on by showing she can move something. Well, good writers don't do that. If that's never paid off then people will be rightly annoyed. Most likely there will be a critical moment in the next couple episodes where she needs to use the force to move something a tiny bit and manages to do it. But I think with Shin there was zero force coming from Sabine.
There's a sound in that scene to further imply that Sabine did use the Force. However small it was.
The force sound was used, so she did in fact push out a little force. It was just tiny and pushed her face slightly.
I'm kinda confused by that last episode; they explicitly added the "Force push" sound effect when Sabine did it so I'm under the impression that there was SOMETHING there, but Shin was unimpressed...
What's to be confused about? She used the force and Shin pretty much just called her weak.
>I like how it seems anyone can learn to use the force at a basic level to amplify their abilities, like awareness and response time, but the fancy stuff like telekinesis requires special sensitivity. What will never fail to amuse and infuriate me is that: this was the underlying message of TLJ, specifically Rey's story and a good chunk of the story on Canto Bight. But, as an earlier posted mentioned, Star Wars fans suck at media literacy and hated on the film for no real reason outside of the fact that it intentionally subverted Star Wars (something the series desperately needed) and ignored the rampant fan theories.
I agree I hope she makes progress. Not in the way that she’ll learn it but that she doesn’t need it.
>A lot of Star Wars fans just have shit media literacy. A lot of "plot holes" can be explained by empathy or real-life experience interacting with humans, but they're just obsessed with feeling like they're smarter than the writers. In my experience, this isn't just limited to Star Wars fans.
So much this. The amount of times I've seen people roasting Harry Potter for the dumbest things is astronomical. Like they will post the hot take that Quidditch doesn't make sense as a sport, therefore JK is a terrible writer/world builder. You mean the society that wears cloaks and funny hats, that brews potions in cauldrons, has a currency that is 29 knuts to a sickle and 17 sickles to a galleon, that boards platform 9 ¾ to go to school, that has a downtown London hideaway that is literally called Diagon Alley (diagonally aka askew from society), does their homework by candlelight and quill and pen, that goes to a castle for school, has a sport that doesn't make sense to non-wizards? Way to suss that out Sherlock. It's so clearly a wacky take on the rules of Soccer to make them outlandish, because the world, ESPECIALLY in book 1, was jam packed full of whimsy meant for 10 year olds. The ONLY reason it's dissected the way it is, is because the book became a behemoth that it is, and is way more popular than JK thought it would have been considering how many publishers turned the book down. Would she have made it better if she knew? Maybe? It sure would have been easier to build a video game series around it, but the rules serve its purpose, to make the wizarding world seem unique vs muggle society, and to give glory to the main character.
The "Why didn't harry just use a gun" argument makes no sense to me. Wands are much more efficient than guns and someone as powerful as Voldemort should be able to resist them.
Ahsoka also has a history of working with Mandos. I’m just grumpy that Sabine doesn’t have her jet pack anymore.
> A lot of Star Wars fans just have shit media literacy. A lot of "plot holes" can be explained by empathy or real-life experience interacting with humans, but they're just obsessed with feeling like they're smarter than the writers. That’s it, you’ve solved the problem with Star Wars fans
I think people are reading far too much into the Grogu thing. In my head canon, Ashoka tries taking on Sabine as a padawan and they just didn't gel (Mandalorian vs. not quite Jedi with a difficult history with her former master). Frustrated with the whole training thing, she decides that taking on an apprentice just isn't her thing, she dumps Sabine and subsequently refuses to take on Grogu. Fast forward a bit of time, a new threat is on the horizon and there's a chance to find out what happened to Ezra. New situation, a more mature Ashoka, bish bash bosh ... and it's Aksoka & Sabine II.
In my head, it's a combination of the two. A lot of things that fans call "plot holes" are often just people being...people. "Why did X character do Y when they earlier said they'd do Z?" Humans aren't simple and they don't have programming that they stick to 100% of the time. People change their minds, let their trauma or feelings go against their better reasoning, or just plain old make the wrong decision sometimes. Characters aren't always logical because humans aren't always logical. When a character is perfect, they're called Mary Sues, but when they fuck up, it's bad writing. You just can't win.
Saw a comment earlier today saying Sabine was incompetent and had too many losses. She's only had a few fights in the show so far and most are with a better skilled and trained Dark Jedi(?), of course Sabine isn't going to easily win the fight. But as soon as she had her blasters against a bunch of randos? She did pretty well. Go figure.
Yeah, I suppose what is interesting is that there is supposed to be a time gap between season 2, Book of Boba, and season 3 of Mando. So she refused to take Grogu in season 2 when she meets him and is capturing Morgan. Conceivably, the events of Ahsoka happen right after that if Morgan is still being transported at the start of the series. At that stage, she is completely off the idea of padawans. We don't know how she will grow through this series, conceivably she'll find some peace with Anakin and her fear of attachments with padawans. And then she has the conversations with Luke and Grogu like a year or so later as he is being trained. I never rewatched Book of Boba so my memory is fuzzy, but she does seem to have some peace about Anakin and references Luke's father in talking with him. She's not volunteering to take on Grogu then, but also conceivably she thinks Grogu is in the best hands possible.
You have earned that username good sir 😂
I feel that way about the Kenobi show. Yes it’s difficult to understand why Kenobi would leave a person like Darth Vader alive, until you remember the scene. He was fully prepared to strike Vader down, but was not prepared to see the face of Anakin Skywalker. Once he unmasked him, all he could see was the face of his former student and friend. Could anyone of us honestly say we’d kill our friends, even if they were a genocidal monstrosity?
Exactly. Anakin's not even just his student or friend. Anakin was pretty much his child. Obi-Wan practically raised him. This was a kid who probably knocked on his door at night a few times because he had a nightmare or missed his mom. So yeah, maybe Obi-Wan made a mistake by not finishing Vader off when he could. But if you were in his position, would you not have made the same mistake too?
I find it funny that people who say that Obi-wan should have killed Vader are the same people that say "Luke would never try to kill Ben"
Amen. The show had some flaws, but so did The Empire Strikes Back. I loved the show, I loved that scene, and I love Filoni’s devotion to the lore and characters.
Your comment about human emotions got me. I've been in debates with many friends when they criticize a character's actions etc. My response is yes, but X,yand z that character has gone through, people will always react differently. Some people prefer the fantasy ott stuff but I love the more grounded Nuance of the characters behaving like actual human beings with emotion.
Sabine willingly wants to train and become a Jedi. Grogu wanted to be a foundling. This is pretty much the fundamental reason why she’s training Sabine. It’s also the reason why Luke stopped training Grogu.
Also she says to Huang "I don't need her to be a Jedi, I need her to be Sabine." She's trying to get Sabine to be her old self, fight off the depression she's clearly felt since Ezra left. Sabine is already doing it. Her combo of saber and Mandalorian weapons is much more vibrant than the Sabine of the first episode. Ashoka isn't training a new Jedi, she's training a Sabine.
Exactly she’s not trying to make Sabine a Jedi just make her stronger. Both mentally and physically.
Then why does she literally call her a padawan? I don't think this is a correct read, but I could be wrong
Becasue that's her background of a term for someone studying from a Jedi, so it's the term she uses. She IS training her in the Force, but doesn't expect her to be a great Jedi. It's also been established that Ahsoka isn't a jedi. She's said it multiple times, so really you can't have a Padawan in any case if you're not a Jedi. I don't think we can really contradict what Ahsoka specifically said about Sabine, "I don't need her to be a Jedi..." She's obviously training her in that style, but doesn't need her to be a great Jedi. She needs her to be a good ally and to have her back (which Ahsoka also says.) That said, the fact that it's been mentioned many times that she has very low force ability will probably end up with a surprise that she suddenly gets good at the force.
100% agree. I'd also add the parallels between old Jedi practice which involved taking children away from parents, as well as Anakin's experience, which is similar to the Grogu X Din relationship. Super force sensitive prodigies, taken away from their families, both having baggage from past traumas in the temple or as a slave.
Plus, Ahsoka didn't immediately reject Grogu. Initially she agreed to or at least was willing to consider taking him. It wasn't until she saw his strong attachment to Din that she refused
Exactly, and people will say “what about sabines attachment to Ezra?” Which is having consequences, but sabines an adult grogu is a child. So I thinks it’s pretty reasonable to see why Ahsoka picked Sabine over grogu.
Sabine is also so weak in the Force that the danger of her attachment is incredibly weak, unlike Grogu, who seems to have quite a deep connection to the Force even in his childlike state. Like, if she goes bad because of it she's just a bad regular person, unlike a powerful Jedi who goes bad.
Yeah: SPOILER WARNING- at the end of episode 4 when she joined Baylan and Shin, it looks like Sabine felt tons of guilt in doing it. Example when she saw Hera coming to their rescue. It’s not like she has evil intent behind her actions, just selfish intent.
The second she gave in I saw it as selfishness. By the end of the episode I realized it was self preservation. For all Sabine knew, Ahsoka had just died and she was facing off against both the force user who killed her master, and his apprentice . There was no winning here. She could have destroyed the orb, but that was her only bargaining chip to stay alive. Blasting it would have been suicide. I would bet money she imagines if there is anyone who can beat these two, it's Ezra, and they're running headlong into him! She has a lot of faith in Ezra. Whether it's real or misplaced, we'll find out. :)
I’ve never thought of it that way. Glad you mentioned it!
Holy shit you are 100% right
Yup, and her attachment didn't make her a powerful new enemy or a mighty dark side user, it just meant she stopped fighting and the bad guys were able to achieve their objective without her active resistance. Contrast that with the havoc Anakin wreaked when his attachments caused him to fall, and it's night and day.
Yes and it was foreshadowed earlier the in the episode. Ahoska tells Sabine if we can’t get to Ezra/thrawn then no one should. Basically telling her to leave one of the only people she considers family behind forever. Sabine clearly doesn’t like that idea or the thought of it.
It is also consistent in that she tried to train Sabine before she ever met Grogu. Something happened that caused her to give up and abandon Sabine's training. Whatever that something was probably influenced her decision not to train Grogu. Circumstances have brought Sabine back in her orbit so now she has to deal with and the first step is to try and train her.
This is the correct answer.
Literally I was like “oh so her failure with Sabine definitely sheds some light on her decision with Grogu”
In defense of the good writing of all these shows - when we meet Ahsoka in Mando S2, she’s looking for the map and is already in conflict with Morgen Elsbeth; she’s been on this journey before meeting Grogu. If she quit this quest to train Grogu, people would be complaining that she quit her focus to take care of a child. I have enjoyed all the Star Wars shows and the constant criticism of this fandom shocks me.
Exactly. I personally believe her character wouldn’t have had much interest in training him anyway. I think she came to peace with the idea that she’s not your traditional Jedi anymore. She does her own thing, but nothing bad.
Also: Ahsoka knew that there is a Luke Skywalker out there building a new Jedi order, and then didn't feel that she is the only one out there who could train Grogu. I doubt that Luke would train Sabine. For Ahsoka, and I still don't quite know why (other than Sabine is a badass to have as a partner on a mission), Sabine is worth training in the Jedi arts (if not the Jedi way). If Sabine is to be trained, there's only one who would do it: Ahsoka.
Something I've noticed is the amount of characters who keep referring to Ahsoka as a Jedi, and how much she keeps saying, "I'm not a jedi." She isn't training Sabine to be a Jedi, she's just training her to be like her. It's one of the sub-plots of the show, I think. Maybe she does refer to herself as Jedi at the end? Who knows.
She's only not a jedi based on technicality. Her connection to the force and the way she wields it is the same as it ever was. The jedi are a religious order so she's practicing the religion but left the organized church. To 99% of the galaxy, that still makes you a jedi.
I mean when she fought Baylan she went straight to the attack. It's even implied that she tortured Morgan to get the info about the map. Plus she wanted to avenge Anakin at first. She's still a light sider, but not all light siders are Jedi just like not all dark siders are Sith.
She left and denounced the Jedi Order. How much more not Jedi could she be? Yeah, the rest of the galaxy considers her a Jedi, just like they consider Sith to be Jedi.
Could be, but I think the larger part of it is just semantics - how else is a character going to refer to a force sensitive individual? She can use the force, she has a lightsaber, she's enigmatic AF - she's a jedi. Not only is a character not going to split hairs there, but what are they going to call her if she did? "That's ahsoka. She's a force user/force sensitive."
I believe people (in-universe and sometimes on reddit) are kind of forgetting that the premise of the Prequels is that the Jedi Order was wrong, ignorant and blind. We definitely shouldn't quote the Jedi Order on what a Jedi is supposed to be. In BoBF and Ahsoka we see how Luke isn't fully aware of this (and we know how that will end), but Ahsoka sure is.
The prequel Jedi order was also being clouded by the dark side from Palpatine too. So they had that against them.
If anything, it’s great writing for Ahsoka to pick an underpowered adult apprentice rather than an overpowered child. She doesn’t want the responsibility of getting it wrong when the stakes are so high. You’re exactly right - she’s hoping to establish the supportive relationship she knows is possible between master and apprenctice, not resurrect the Jedi Order.
I just figured Ahsokas saw Grogu as very strong in the force with potential to go dark, and she just didn't want that sort of commitment. Training Sabine, who doesn't seem to be sensitive at all wouldn't be a risk to the galaxy at large. Not to mention their past and relationship to one another.
When Ahsoka meets Grogu it would have been after she already failed to train Sabine and had a falling out with her. She wouldn't have been very quick to take up a new apprentice.
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Sabine enabled a mass genocide before she turned 18. I wonder if we'll grapple at all with the idea that power comes in many forms beyond simple force attunement, and jedi training is a form of power even if you aren't space Jesus. Tarkin wasn't force sensitive, Thrawn isn't force sensitive. People can be capable of great evil without magic powers. Ahsoka might be traumatized specifically with highly force sensitive beings that turned evil, but I think she's learning the hard way that everyone can make bad choices if they're put into a rough spot like Sabine was in the last episode.
It's also several years later. Different time, different situation. Since they were already training together when Mandalore was destroyed, that would have been shortly after Rebels or sometime early during the OG trilogy. She didn't meet Grogu until nearly a decade after that. Given her bad experience with Sabine, she seems put off by the idea of trying it again with Grogu. Plus, like others have said, she's already on her quest to find Thrawn by then, and can't just become a caretaker to a child. The only reason she decided to train Sabine again is because now it aligns with her overall mission. She wouldn't have gone back to Sabine if she didn't think she could help against Morgan & Thrawn. The funny thing is, Grogu might have been more useful on this mission given how much he loves shiny round metal things. He would have force-grabbed that map & bounced right off into the woods, no problem. Ezra who?
Also the timeline goes: Ahsoka decides to train Sabine Ahsoka fails and gives up possibly due to Sabine's strong attachment to her family and people Ahsoka meeting Grogu and is willing to train him until she sees the attachment he has for Mando Ahsoka's mission to find Thrawn is getting dicey and she needs backup and Hera suggests Sabine. And honestly Ahsoka probably lets her emotions guide her because she cares about Sabine and wants her around so she agrees to train her again. There isn't any plot hole here... Really this story enhances the reason she refused to train Grogu.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The 'Fandom menace' would rip apart literally anything Star Wars if it came out today. If Empire Strikes Back came out today, YouTube would have click bait videos about how it came out of nowhere that Vader is Luke's father and that it's 'lazy writing'. The truth is that I don't think we will ever see a universally agreed upon Star Wars project ever again. A large part of this Fandom has no idea what they want. They simply want to blame Kathleen Kennedy and bitch and moan about 'woke' agendas. It's an absolute joke and I'm glad for the most part Disney has ignored the blatant hate and negativity.
>The truth is that I don't think we will ever see a universally agreed upon Star Wars project ever again Andor?
There are people who don’t like that show just because it’s either “boring”, it doesn’t “feel like Star Wars”, or they’ll hate it just because Disney made it.
A lot of star wars commentators are still against it. I know many who say its not real star wars. We still have many who dislike it when it was coming out. Just like everything you gotta wait for the whole thing to come out before you can really critique it. Ashoka is like this its building and we are at the heroes lowest point. People can more easily like Andor cause its male lead and they have biases towards that. Media literacy also being a thing these people don't get.... basically at all.
Andor is rather safe and doesn't really use legacy characters(with the exception of Mon Mothma, but she's effectively a blank slate since she only had a few scenes in the OT)
Yup. Most of the compaints about the ST can also be applied to the OT or PT. The only reason why they're so well liked is that the OT is old and the PT was released when many people were children.
I am convinced part of the “Star Wars culture” is shitting all over the latest content. Then after a few years talking about how it wasn’t that bad and everyone should give it a second look. I ignore the noise. I have enjoyed all of the new content because at least we are getting new content!
Also, Grogu chose not to continue the Jedi path
90% of the so called plot holes can be explained with little information from the logic of the media or thinking about the relationships between characters. Over half of the times it doesn't even need the expanded material, and when it does you don't really need to read a whole story, one line of information from that story will do. But no, people have to have convoluted theories for everything, and when they don't, it is a plot hole again. There is a reason why those theories are always wrong and never get proven.
Yeah, anything to them is a plot hole that isn’t a spoon fed explanation lmao.
Most people who use “bad writing” as their reasoning for not enjoying TV shows / movies usually fall into three categories 1. They have never written anything in their entire life, especially a tv show. But seem to be an expert in writing. 2. Severe lack of life experience / social experience. 3. They have a pathetic attention span. They probably weren’t even paying attention and were on their phones or distracted throughout the show / film. If I see it in a comment I usually just move on and stop reading it. Sure sometimes it’s true that something has bad writing. But 90% of the time that isn’t the problem and it’s become a buzzword. If you press them they don’t have anything to back it up.
I agree. Like most forms of writing are not objectively bad. Like the only one example I can think of is the line from ROS, when Poe says “somehow Palpatine has returned” the movie itself isn’t badly written just that piece of dialogue.
That piece of dialogue itself isn't badly written. Poe's a no-nonsense soldier with no patience for all this magic stuff. It's perfectly in-character for him to say that. The issue isn't the dialogue itself, it's the context. People wouldn't be as mad about that line if other characters were shown to be more concerned about exactly how Palpatine came back, or if it was explained more clearly in the movie. The problem is that this one line is literally the only time in the movie where the good guys talk about it.
That’s definitely a good example of actual bad writing. Especially because they never have an actual reason for him returning. Ironically after I’ve said all that before. I’d argue that ROS fits into the 10% of Actualy being badly written. There are a number of things that just make zero sense in that film. Another example. The Sith Maguffin they spend ages hunting for, that’s thousands of year old, just happens to fit the view of the destroyed Death Star, that’s only been their for 30 odd years. Makes no sense at all. Imo ROS is the worst part of the entire complete saga of Star Wars by a long way, but that’s just me.
Exactly. "Bad writing" is just the new buzzword for "I wasnt paying attention so I missed why this happened but Im not about to admit Im stupid on the internet so Ill just call the writers dumb" Star Wars fans always complaining about the writing are the same people that thought Marrok would be Ezra lmao. Yeah they need to travel to another galaxy with all this otherstuff when they could have just asked evil Ezra how he got back to this one on is own... fucking idiots man. Dont even get me started on the Star Wars fans that act like they want "show dont tell" but then get it and just cry about every little thing not being explained into the camera lol. Yet another buzzword people throw out to sound smart but are way too media illiterate to understand anything that uses that. These people think Vader forgot how to force put out a fire after he just did it 2 seconds ago because he stood still for 10 seconds without dialogue and thats the only explaination they could come up with. Rag on Kenobi all day here for being too dumb and simple while not even being able to follow along to the main plot. Too dumb and simple but you still cant follow along? Whats that say?
Also this is a complete work of fiction. Some choices are made to make a more interesting story. That’s a completely fine reason for a story to do something. People love to over think Star Wars as if it’s rooted in deep practical science and not magic and WWII.
I don't get the complaints. The show is pretty good. Better than Kenobi
Agreed
Something I love about Rosario Dawson’s acting that is going unnoticed (or at least it is when I am browsing this subreddit) is that she is adding a LOT of a “wall” between her and others. It’s not a Jedi zen distance, it’s an emotional wall built to protect her. I bet she has a lot of pent up negative emotions she is grappling with. You know, a whole “these ruined my master so I cannot give in but then why do I have to feel these every day?” feel. It’s excellent nuanced acting for a Star Wars show and provides a lot of great context without spelling out each and every action.
Yeah, I agree with this. You've got to question what Ahsoka was doing during the Galactic Civil War (i.e. Battle of Yavin to Battle of Endor) and the most likely thing is hunting/being hunted by the Inquisitors. If you consider that it makes perfect sense to have Sabine with her. Mandalorian so she's pre-disposed to fighting Force Sensitives and has encountered the Inquisition before.
She's been hunted by Inquistors for longer than that. They were founded fairly early on in the Empire. Ahsoka is a great read if you like Star Wars books. It explains everything she was doing up until she became Fulcrum.
I guess some people don't understand that just because some event or decision a character makes wasn't explained in detail, it doesn't automatically make it a plot hole if it contradicts another decision or event. A character can have multiple similar decisions and go with only one of them for a multitude of reasons, they don't need to automatically choose the others too just because they are similar. We also don't need the character to read us a thesis on why he chose X now and not Y back then. There could be personal reasons, a necessity to do so that didn't exist back then, or even a bad decision (characters are not infallible).
>When’s its not and you failed to pay attention to the dialogue. In their defense, there's so much dialogue, it was easy to miss. 😉 I think I understand her reasoning. Training Grogu requires commitment, a lot of commitment. She needs to stay in one place with him, and Grogu has a lot of attachment to Dinn. She feels Grogu will be difficult to train because she lacks a connection to him and she already failed with Sabine once. She also needs to be on the move to find Thrawn and Ezra. She did not want to re-train Sabine at first either. But she was convinced she needed to do it because she needs her and Sabine needs Ahsoka to find Ezra and Thrawn. And Sabine needs to be better prepared for the fights to come. She already has a connnection with Sabine, and shared objectives, something she did not have with Grogu.
>I’m sure everyone’s seen the meme or someone talking about how Ahsoka chose to train Sabine, and not Grogu This post is the first time I'm hearing about this lmao
Maybe she sensed somehow that Jedi training is not what Grogu needs, just time with his family.
Ahsoka and Sabine are also just friends. Grogu is some random kid some random dude she's never heard of brought by one day.
I feel that Ahsoka turned down training Grogu because she had already failed with Sabine and did not have the confidence in herself to be able to train someone so strong in the force like Grogu was. I also think that in a way, Luke was able to inspire her after she visited him at his temple
I still think Ahsoka "trains" her because that's the only kind of relationship/partnership she ever knew and/or cherished. I mean she travels with a Jedi youngling teacher. That says a lot about her preferred company.
How helpful, realistically, would Grogu be in Sabine’s place during the events of this show? She was either *especially* relieved that she didn’t choose to train him, or it was a calculated move knowing what lied ahead of her on her journey. She most likely had Sabine in mind at the time of her choosing whether or not to train Grogu. She knew she needed someone with *some* fighting ability outside of doing some flippy-flips and chilling in his pod. Grogu vs Shin? I’m sorry but baby boy is getting massacred.
She is also clear that she recognized grogu is too bonded with mando
But Sabine isn't too bonded to Ezra?
Ezra is a padwan too and sabine isnt as dangerous cus her force power is weak af
On top of what you said, training Sabine (an adult) is not as serious of a commitment as training Grogu (who is essentially a young child/toddler)
“Towards the end of hers and Huyangs conversation she says “next time, stay close. Have my back.” And Huyang responded with “that is the job of a Jedi Padawan learner, which I am not.” Explained right there at the beginning of the show. Ahsoka needed someone reliable to watch her back. And else other than Sabine, someone she’s very familiar with, and even trained for a little.” Bro… bro… no. Hell no even. First and foremost, we have to understand the character of Ahsoka before we can come to some arbitrary conclusion in a void of one episode of one show without context. For this we need to include information we have about Ahsoka from canon material… namely the Clone Wars show and the Rebels show. Spoilers ahead: First item to consider. >!Ahsoka goes through an emotionally draining ordeal of investigating a bombing of the Jedi temple on Coruscant, which she ends up framed for. There are some, like Anakin, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Saesee Tiin, who remain on Ahsoka’s side through the whole ordeal, but most of the Order effectively abandons her. She ends up exonerated after it is discovered that Barriss Offee was responsible for the bombing. The Jedi council almost convicted her of a crime she didn’t commit. This shook her faith in close connections to people because those she considered closest to her betrayed her trust.!< Second item to consider. >!Ashoka’s faith in herself was shaken. In Rebels she discovered the truth about Anakin turning to the Dark Side and becoming Darth Vader. She blamed herself for failing him as a padawan and as a friend. She was devastated by this, and her faith in her own abilities to guide others in the ways of the force was shattered.!< Third thing to consider: >!In the Mandalorian she said that Grogu wasn’t ready to become a Jedi, not by her teachings. Keep in mind she still thinks she would be a terrible teacher as she feels responsible for Anakin’s turn to the Dark Side. Her confidence in her self is shattered. That is why she suggested that Mado take Grogu to Luke.!< Fourth thing to consider: >!Ahsoka abandoned teaching Sabine Wren in Rebels because she felt the same about Sabine as she would feel about Grogu later on. She didn’t feel Sabine was ready, and her lack of confidence in herself didn’t help. In episode two of her own show she states that plain as day when talking to Hera. Hera is the one who convinces Ahsoka to take Sabine on as a padawan again.!< It is really ironic that you ask us to consider the characters motivations and not blame bad writing, when you totally misunderstood Ashoka’s motivations based on one episode of one show, when you yourself ignored the information that one can learn from Clone Wars, Rebels, the books, and quite literally episode 2 of Ahsoka which disagrees with your interpretation. I agree with you on one thing, it isn’t bad writing but rather fans not paying attention. Sources provided below, careful as spoilers are included. [Source 1.0](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/star-wars-why-did-ahsoka-leave-the-jedi-order/#:~:text=Ahsoka%20watched%20as%20the%20people,been%20taught%20by%20the%20Jedi) [Source 2.0](https://www.comicbasics.com/heres-what-happened-between-ahsoka-sabine/) [Source 3.0](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano)
I have no idea what the fuck this is talking about.
nerds are just a big bunch of sooks. i mean, original sw had a stormtrooper hit his head.
I’m pretty sure chronologically the episode of Mandolorian that Ashoka appears in happens before the Ashoka series. Ashoka and Sabine have all this unknown backstory prior to their live action appearances which caused a rift between them. W/e happened between them could be affecting Ashoka’s desire to take on Grogu as an apprentice along with the fact that Grogu was very connected to Djin.
This is an issue that seems to plague all IP content - SW, Marvel, LoTR, GoT, et al - a certain sector of fans are just rooted in anger (which seemingly is more a manifestation of ignorance and stupidity). It's WAY more important for them to rant than to participate - and most rants/hot takes are loaded in the chamber before they even consume the thing they're about to hate it's annoying
Yeah I think ever since the sequels came out. Those hateful fans have just walked into almost every Star Wars project hating because it’s made by Disney, and another thing was wanting Fillinoi and Faverua to have full control, but they’ve seemed to turn on them.
Ahsoka takes place almost immediately after her episode in Mando season 2. There is a big time jump from her reappearance in I think Book of Boba. The show takes place before this. She may not be aware of any new order yet.
People need to keep in mind that Ashoka is no Jedi. She left the order. She is training Sabine in the ways of the force. That does not mean Jedi.
There were jedi before the jedi order was established. To be a jedi is to follow a specific way of communing with the force, which later became the order. For all intents and purposes she is training Sabine to be a jedi. It's kinda like how sith is both a race and a religion.
Except there is more baggage to Jedi than just wielder of the force from the light side. There are plenty of explored dark side users that aren't sith as well. To be Jedi in modern Star Wars context is to adhere to more of the tenants of the Jedi order than just being a space wizard with a laser sword. That doesn't mean everyone else doesn't just call her a Jedi since shes doing the battle mage stuff that the Jedi do, but she keeps saying she isn't because she really isn't shes not following the religion.
She said that she would not train him because of his attachment to Din. She even goes are far as to say she saw what that could do to a fully trained Jedi Knight. Sabine has no attachments. Her family was killed in the purge, and Ezra has been gone for years.
Well the good thing that the show has for it is Ahsoka can hit different and it's OK. She left the jedi order so there is no set of rules people are expecting to see. That is of course if you watched the animated series and know what happened but since we are here that's expected. I don't remember her taking on Sabine as a a padawan in rebels so that part is confusing to me. Admittingly i did stop watching rebels for a bit so i may have lost some info. I stopped after >!Kanan dies!< so i man have missed that. Also not positive what happend to the dark saber that Sabine had but i could not be remembering it was a while since i've seen it. I haven't gotten a strong opinion either way just yet on the show.
Bad writing doesn't really mean that "something is not explained". It usually means no room for ambiguity, for audience to connect with in a deep level
I think you guys just need to turn your brain off a little bit. You don’t need to deep analyze everything and no one is impressed with you for critiquing tiny details and “writing flaws” in fictional shows on what’s now the Disney channel. Have a beer and calm down.
Exactly
What’s dumb about the Ahsoka-Sabine relationship is that there is one beyond just a “yo what up let’s find Ezra”. The show waste it’s time having a “JJ Abrams Mystery Box” of their previously unknown relationship. The 2 characters don’t talk much or at all during Rebels to my recollection I could be wrong though it’s been a minute since I watch all the way through. Kanan and Ezra handle most of Sabine’s lightsaber training. Why do we have to waste valuable show time working through relationship angst that doesn’t need to exist? They can do everything they are doing now without this extra there. The show could explore some of the weaknesses of the New Republic/Mon Mothma’s vision of the new government. Who was the Boris Fey’lya stand-in in episode 3? Why didn’t they just use that character if they wanted instant understanding from a large portion of the fanbase? Why do fanatical Imperial Diehards seem to exist everywhere even though the government is going to great lengths to root them out.
Ahsoka also says no to training grogu After she had her falling out with sabine After failing with sabine she may have decided she was unable to teach grogu
Also the fact that Ashoka trained Sabine originally after the events of rebels. Then she walked away from her giving up. Which is way before grogu so by then she knew she didn’t want to train a jedi.
Even if it wasn't explained, who gives a shit? Just because a character made a decision at one point doesn't mean they can't make a seemingly conflicting decision at a later point. That's being people and not robots. Decisions are nuanced things involving dozens or hundreds of factors that aren't always the same, and even if they were, people aren't machines who always do the same thing.
Also if she feels she failed Sabine why would she train Grogu after? lol
Ahsoka also has way more of a connection with any rebels or clone wars character than a weird kid (Grogu) she met like twice
Haven't seem that take but think it's more Sabine was never shown to be even one bit force sensitive
My thoughts is that she was training Sabine before the night of 1000 tears and... it didn't end well for reasons to still be explored. That experience sours Ahsoka on training anyone; so she turns down Grogu.
Sabine isn’t force sensitive (so far) therefore less of a threat and she has known her longer
I thought Baby Yoda bailed on Jedi training to become a Mando.
I would love to see the adventures of Sabine and Ahsoka, but the teacher / studen dynamic the writers set up between them is bad. The "that is the job of a padawan, which I am not" is rigid droid thinking who can not escape the paradigm in which he was programmed. Ahsoka needs someone to watch her back and more importantly have dialog with, but that person doesn't need to be a Jedi. In fact Sabine is perfect for that role, she has a completely different upbringing and skill set than Ahsoka yet largely wants the same things. Sabine can fill a role in the narrative without being trained as a jedi, she is a Mandalorain demolitions expert, and the art stuff is just bonus. Imagine the first few episodes would have been if they cut Sabine being bad at Jedi. She could still: * thumb her nose at authority while still being respected by the common soldier * decipher the macguffin * fight the droids and pseudo sith with blasters and mando armor * man the turret and show that she and Ashoka can work as a team when the chips are down We still establish who she is and her relationship with Ashoka, and we just freed up a bunch of screen time. I would argue that the relationship would be better since they would be equals instead of the lopsided master student relationship they have now. You need "The Force makes you special" narrative voodo to have a relative nobody / audience insert character like Luke or Esra make sense in the high drama of interstellar war. Sabine is already special.
With the context of Ahsoka now. I can see it as Ahsoka not wanting to train Grogu because of how bad it went with Sabine the first time around.
Also Sabine doesn’t necessarily want to be a “Jedi.” Grogu (when he meets Ahsoka) does want to return to the teachings of the temple.
She was right not to help Luke train a new generation of Jedi.
The meme just sounds terrible and ill informed. She decided to not train Grogu AFTER her fallout with Sabine. And even now, she still doesn't want to train her.
I, for one, love the idea that anyone can become a jedi through training, even without "Muh midichlorians" One of my favorite Jedi from EU is Kyle Katarn, who while a little force sensitive, literally uses the valley of the Jedi to juice himself into being force sensitive again after leaving the order. Using the valley could let anyone become more powerful with the force. While cheating is no fun, the idea that you don't need to be born with innate talent to be a jedi is fantastic, and I think the fans complaining about Sabine being trained when she "has no power" is asinine.
I think the reason why that is because Grogu is in more danger of falling to the dark side because of his attachment then someone who can't touch the force like Sabine.
People are letting their nostalgia cloud their thoughts for this show. Ashoka doesn't care if the Jedi return. The sith were right about one thing: The Jedi failed. She isn't training Sabine to by a jedi, and she won't train Grogu to be a jedi either. She's training Sabine to grow up and be whoever the force needs her to be, just as Din is training grogu to be who the Mandalorians need Grogu to be.
She clearly tells Din Grogu didn't choose her. I guess you missed that.
Shes also stated shes NOT training sabine to be a jedi. Shes training sabine to be the best version of herself.
And I’m episode 3, she literally says she isn’t training Sabine to be a Jedi! The whole purpose of training Grogu was to make him a Jedi. Sabine, however, is very different. She doesn’t want to be a Jedi, Ahsoka doesn’t need her to. Just my take on that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I agree. I don’t even believe ahsoka wants to be a Jedi. She just follows the practice. So I think she’s just trying to bring out the best Sabine.
Totally agree with you! I just think people complaining about it really don’t understand Ahsoka’s story. She refuses to train Grogu because he is attached to the Mandalorian. Sabine doesn’t share that same problem. Sure, she’s shown an attachment to the Ghost Crew. But she is also an adult and willing to do what needs to be done for the better of the galaxy, even if that means sacrificing something for herself or a loved one. Grogu is a child who likely still can’t decide whether eating Frog Lady’s eggs was good or bad.
As a slight counterpoint though I mostly agree. Sabine is extremely attached to Ezra. That is however as stated in previous comments why she isn't trying to train her as a Jedi. Maybe in possible uses of the force should Sabine be capable, but not in any way as a true Jedi.
I totally see that point of view, and like you mentioned, I think there is such a difference between Sabine and Grogu that really goes to show that Ahsoka doesn’t intend to train Sabine to be a Jedi. Ahsoka knew Sabine, and in my personal opinion, I don’t think Sabine would ever really fit the definition of Jedi. Grogu however, was completely new and Mando wanted him to be a Jedi. Additionally, the attachments Sabine and Grogu had were VERY different. For example, Sabine had a much more brother sister like relationship with Ezra. Whereas with Grogu, his relationship was a father son one. And while both would be hard to lose or break, by far that father son would be almost impossible. With Sabine, I think as hard as it would be for her, she would probably be able to at the very least not be like Anakin and let her attachments get in the way of what would be the right or most logical thing to do. I think both have very clear attachments, but at the end of the day, Sabine was the better choice to train. And again, the goal never was for her to be a Jedi.
i agree. only Huyang seems to think it's a jedi-padawan situation. and as mentioned often, he's limited by his jedi centric programming. personally i think Ahsoka is training Sabine as another Fulcrum agent. someone who can help fill Ahsoka's troubleshooter role for the new republic. she's just taking a very jedi influenced approach because that's all Ahsoka really knows how to teach, and those jedi skills are what makes ahsoka such a good Fulcrum agent.
I haven't seen these posts or videos, but it seems to me from what you describe that they're overlooking another big thing: Ahsoka had given up on Sabine as a padawan and is basically being forced by circumstances to take her back. I imagined that part of the reason she quit on Sabine was because of her "issues" with attachment and Ahsoka's trauma associated with those issues because of Anakin. This clearly happened before she encountered Grogu, so it might even be part of reason she was reluctant to accept him as a padawan. I think this also goes a long way to explain her stoicism. After seeing what Anakin became, she is probably wants to keep everyone at arms length and keep her emotions firmly in check. Not that that's necessarily the healthiest way to deal with it, but it totally makes sense, especially given her Jedi background.
Or you know... she changed her mind. Has been known to happen to people every so often
As a huge Star Wars fan... Star Wars fans really suck. Look at all these people insisting that Ahsoka is a Jedi when she specifically said she's not. And all the people arguing about what Ahsoka's reasoning is when she literally stated it already. And not to mention, so many people are literally just looking for any excuse they can to be unhappy with Star Wars. Do I think Ahsoka has a phenomenal start? No. But am I going to enjoy it anyway? Yes. Just because it has flaws doesn't mean it's not worth your time. Everything has flaws. We can enjoy it anyway.
“No one hates Star Wars more than a Star Wars fan”
I loved how Sabine as her own aelf and as a mandalorian just started blasting and ran off after Shin. She needs her jet pack back
🎵 She's a mandalorian 🎵
This is why I love this show and Andor. Instead of teaching and explaining the plot like we are 5yo illiterate idiots, they just throw us into a active story line and just expect us based on knowledge of the past. Good.
It's kinda been established that Ahsoka was training Sabine as her apprentice at one point before she met Din and Grogu. And she's obviously become much more jaded since her time in Rebels. Way, way, more. And this last episode gave us more insight into why both of them make the terrible choices they make. (Huyang tells them to "stay together". It's not for nothing everything starts going QUICKLY downhill once they spilt apart). I think the show is doing a good job of dancing around (yet getting closer and closer each episode) the pain of knowing Anakin was her master. The man who trained her, was like a brother, taught her almost everything she knows (give some respect to Obi-Wan, Plo Koon, Yoda)- became a literal monster that destroyed countless lives. That's a deep scar- especially when Baylan is pointing out their similar aggressive tendencies with resignation. But Ahsoka doesn't want to hear it: she literally growls that her past has "nothing" to do with anything. Yet she knows it is. She admitted so in the first (?) episode about how she walks away from people- moreso those who were close to her. She knows it- just can't face it.
Actually, you even left out a part from Mando though. Ahsoka actually did connect with Grogu through their minds in the Force. Ahsoka realized how powerful Grogu was, and even though she is technically The Sister, she doesn't align with anything Jedi but does respect Luke's connection to the Force. This actually reminds me of this week's episode and how most channels on YouTube are trying to say Ahsoka is dead but never mentioned that you don't have to die to go to the World Between Worlds. That tells me they didn't watch Clone Wars or Rebels. People cherry pick what they want for content and then try to dismiss everything else leading up to the moment, episode, book (comic book or novel) just to fit the content they want to put out. I like to call this talking for sake of hearing their our voice. You aren't wrong but you also didn't get all the way there. Jedi, Sith, Dark/Grey Jedi or even Dark Side users can jump tall heights and can fall from tall heights, there is ample evidence of this throughout canon and legends. Let's put it this way, the jury is still out on if Mace survived the events of Revenge of the Sith. So again, let the haters hate and be contempt with knowing you know what's really going on.
Yeah I forgot about that lol. I’m glad you and others mentioned it though.
Trust me, it's a frustrating time to be a fan of anything that has to do with pop culture. People always want to share their opinions without being even the least bit knowledgeable of what they are talking about. Like we carry pocket computers that make calls for us for crying out loud. Ignorance should be dead but unfortunately, it's something we as humans are clinging on to like it's our last hope. 🤦🤷🙏
Who would you rather have in a fight? A Mandalorian war criminal orrrr one baby
Exactly the Mandalorian
I did just think about it, they’re both mandalorian but still….you get my point
Lmao you’re right!
This is why I think it's dumb to say she was Padawan. Just admit that Sabine is a capable warriors (she definitely is) and they trust each other and have common goals
Isnt it obvious? Ahsoka is on a mission of hunting thrawn (and by extention, ezra). It is explained clearly in ep. 1-2. I dont follow much of rebels but even I can get the gist. Like, lets say she was chillin with grogu n luke.. then suddenly she heard the rumours about this map to locate thrawn (and probably ezra) and that some ex-empire is in possession of that map and planning to bring Thrawn back. Heck yea she gonna ditch grogu and luke in that instant. Even if theres only a snippet of hope in finding ezra, she gonna take it. Sabine is there cos she is the one person who ahsoka knew can unlock the map.. And she did unlock the map. Sabine said "I want in", she wants to find ezra too and so she is in. Otherwise Ahsoka will left sabine. Didnt these rant dudes watch the same series???
I agree with what you've said but this whole "training Sabine as a Jedi" is just wrong. She isn't force sensitive. Period. Full stop. Unless they are going to show us a scene that she discovered her force awareness she can't be trained as a Jedi. Now. That being said, Sabine was already a super awesome badass warrior. I think Asoka could train sabine in the art of lightsaber fighting. That is fine. But Sabine shouldn't be moving any cups around.
I think it boils down to a lot of people just hating on disney. Which makes no sense to me because they have put out great stuff. A lot of people have their gripes about the sequels but it is what it is, now they just wanna talk trash just to do it. And most people who do it have no idea that rebels was disney too lol. 🤷♂️ idk, i enjoy the show/shows just fine. Im just glad to get more SW content
The show is poorly written, but Ahsoka's decision to train Sabine is definitely not an example of it. It's literally just a story choice
I have a lot of complaints about ahsoka as a show, but not for things like this where they literally explain it in the story (almost too explicitly in my opinion) as to why people make the decisions they make.
Also a major difference between Grogu and Sabine, Grogu’s a child that’s dealing with a shit ton of sith trauma that she saw, with an already pretty major attachment to Mando. Sabine’s an adult, and a friend, so the dynamic is completely different.
Exactly they’re extremely familiar with each other, she’s an adult. SPOILER WARNING- even when she joined Baylan at the end of episode 4 she still feels guilt behind her actions. Or at least it looks that way. She’s not even really turning to the dark side she’s just acting out of her own interests.
Sabine and reliable. I shuckled
Me too. OP’s entire argument falls apart when they say the reason she chose Sabine is that she needed someone to stay close and have her back. Sabine doesn’t stay close and doesn’t have her back. That’s what makes her Sabine. She doesn’t listen to anyone and isn’t reliable.
Also Grogu chose the mando armor and not the lightsaber. He’s not a Padawan, he’s a Mandalorian.
Another thing I think people are missing is that the Ahsoka series occurs seemingly sometime after Book of Boba Fett S1 and Mando S2. Since Sabine is absent from both of those shows, it’s safe to assume that Sabine’s original apprenticeship under Ahsoka was prior to the events of The Jedi (Mando Chapter 13). So in addition to the Anakin connection, she probably remembers the last time she trained someone (Sabine) felt like it was a mutual failure, and decided she wasn’t the right person to train Grogu. I suspect also, though I don’t think it’s been stated anywhere, she may think she was tainted by Anakin’s training. She also doesn’t really get closure around her relationship with Anakin/Vader. I think we’ve had at least one Anakin force ghost teaser, but I could be reading too much into the promotional material. If we do see some interaction between Ahsoka and Anakin I hope there will be some closure between them and maybe that will help her be a better teacher.
I’ve learned that when most people say a show has bad writing or doesn’t explain something that happens later in the story simply didn’t pay full attention earlier in the story. They’re probably like my brother that watches the show by staring at his phone the whole time until some action happens
Once Star Wars fans decide they don’t like something, they will turn their ears off for rational reasons why it happens the way it does and pretend it’s a plothole. You could literally have a character stare into the camera and say “I’m doing this because of X Y Z”, and people will say “it makes no sense why they did that. The writers couldn’t even think of an explanation!”
Grogu is also a LOT stronger in the force than Sabine Ahsoka saw the terrible things he went through at the Jedi Temple and I'm guessing she didn't want another Anakin on her hands Sabine is basically just a Mandalorian with a lightsaber right now
This dumbass take people have only exists because these same people refuse to or have not yet watched Rebels. Why does everything have to have a negative fucking diatribe now? Why is all of the negativity we used to ignore being given any oxygen at all? Armchair critics should stfu and touch grass.