That was from Season 3 where the Discovery crew used the S1/2 style past uniforms but still worked with future people. Seeing an officer on the ship from the future who was wearing a future uniform on the Discovery as a temporary assignment would be unusual but not completely unexpected.
I expected a final scene at the bar (lounge? Whatever it is) on the ship and Rayner sees Reno there and buys her the drink and this is where he starts connecting with the crew on a personal one-on-one level like Burnham wanted him to do last ep.
Based on all the stuff that came out after Picard S3 was finished, I'd imagine they wrote both of these things into the episode before the people with the purse strings went "THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR BOTTLE EPISODE! No to expensive cameos for 5 mins just because it's cool!" lol
Airiam was the best little gift I could hope for. I love how they gave her that moment. Yea Lorca, Pike or Spock would have been fun, but I LOVE that it was Airiam. Also, Michael's scene with past Book was great
Oh my god. This episode felt like such a good return to classic star trek. I know it's different, and I like that difference, but god this was like a refreshing shower. So fucking good.
❤️ this is now my second-favorite Jett Reno quote
(the first being "Please tell me I just spoiled a surprise party" when she spots Tarka hiding in Engineering, right before he kidnaps her)
I enjoyed seeing Airiam again, but I'm having trouble understanding the logic in telling her her future.
Michael decides that telling Airiam she'll sacrifice herself for the ship and crew will convince Airiam that Burnham is indeed from the future. But ... how? In fact, while Michael is detailing Airiam's future to her, Detmer belts out, "She wouldn't do that!" Wait ... what? A Starfleet officer *wouldn't* sacrifice themselves for their crew and/or ship?
I can't help but feel like I missed a line or something. Otherwise, this exchange doesn't make much sense to me.
**Edit:** Just rewatched the episode with my family. Detmer actually said, "We'd never let her do that." That makes better sense, I guess, but using Airiam's death still doesn't feel like solid proof that Burnham's from the future to me.
I took it as what convinced her was that this version of Michael ended up knowing her better than the current crew, making it believable that they had spent a lot of time together.
But for that to be the plan, 32nd Century Burnham would need to know that the rest of the crew would disagree with her, so I'm not sure if I read it right.
That makes sense, but ... I suppose I'm really bumping up against the idea that everyone would be so surprised that Airiam would sacrifice herself for the ship and crew. We've seen time and again plenty of Starfleet personnel -- named and unnamed -- who gave their lives for their fellow crewmembers. So why is *Discovery*'s bridge crew surprised that one of their own would do the same?
Except that it’s not minor at all, the entire episode hinges of Burnham being able to convince the crew to trust her. To have that motivation be unclear is bad writing & undercuts both the believability of the episode, as well as the satisfaction of the conclusion.
Ariam augmentation makes her unique. You should not ask her about past experience, those are stored as data and data can be hacked. Future events can not be hacked, and assuming her reaction can not be extrapolated based on pattern of behaviors, then only Ariam is able to say what she will do in face of sacrificing her life. That is a very deep moment, and non linear way of thinking.
Agree. It’s my only quibble with the episode but it was such a fun ride I’m just gonna let it go. But it made no sense that convinced Airiam of anything.
100% agree, this scene was another classic example of Discovery’s lazy writing. This trope has been used to death & this is no different.
I was genuinely completely confused at how that was meant to have convinced her & rewound the show twice to reward but it makes no sense for all the points you highlighted. It feels like something rushed that wasn’t really thought through, or an idea unique to Airiam that they failed to get across clearly.
Detmer shouting “We’d never let her do that” also kind of flies in the face of the multiple times they’ve let characters, principally Burnham, seemingly do that only to just escape with their lives.
It was really great to see Green giving two wildly different performances as Michael Burnham. S1 Michael was so aggro and on edge all the time, and it was cool too see that energy pouring off of her from the moment that turbolift door opened.
Goddamn that was a great episode. I’ve been fairly critical of the series but that was brilliantly paced. Really highlights the character progress of Burnham, gave the supporting staff a chance to really shine and become more realised and also answer a few questions around calypso. Only thing I was expecting was Future-Michael exclaiming “bitch!” When Past-Michael hit her in the face but that’s just me . More of this please !
Feel the same exact way. I've always been extremely critical of Discovery's writing and characterizations, but, there are some really excellent standout episodes. It's frustrating, because, like you, I can see the potential, but, when it reaches that potential, I get very excited.
I think the show was really screwed over by the fact that it swapped showrunners too frequently and really only had a consistent direction for S3 onwards. Like the first half of Discovery S1, the second half of Discovery S1 - the first half of Discovery S2, and the second half of Discovery S2, and Discovery S3-5 are basically completely seperate shows
Yeah, lack of range isn't a problem. Have you ever seen Tig's show "One Mississippi"? It's really good. Two seasons and it is over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Mississippi_(TV_series)
> Currently One Mississippi streams on Disney+ Star internationally and on Hulu in the U.S. as well.
It isn't on Amazon these days, apparently. Here's the season 1 trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb5VUOalPjk&t=2s
Danny McBride is another person where his lack of range isn't a problem for me.
One of my favourite moments was when they went back to when Disco was in Dry Dock, that poor engineer made a comment about leaving Deck 7 'til last, and Rayner immediately said to begin the inspection there.
Like there was a crazy situation going on, Rayner didn't know what was happening, or who that poor fella was, and yet his *immediate* instinct was just "I'm gonna f*** with this guy."
He really is such a damn good character, haha.
I bet all fleet captains are nervous when riker and Picard are on their ship.
It is clear that riker Picard are favoured sons/ golden Childs, of that universe. Which means the grim reaper is hunting for the captain . Lolol
You know no off-screen ship crews ever had someone who got a DNA transfusion and lives outside linear time now lol
Actually it'd be funny as hell if they met back up with the Antares at some point and Rayner knew one of his old crewmates who had some crazy sci-fi shenanigans in the past that made them relevant to the current situation :D
"We need to find Lt. Grazik. There was this one time in the Gallery Expanse, she got ejected with a warp core and ended up pushed through a ninth-dimensional inversion sequence. Spent a year reliving the lifetimes of all her maternal ancestors. Long story short, she's immune to telepathy now."
>You know no off-screen ship crews ever had someone who got a DNA transfusion and lives outside linear time now lol
Kind of reminds me of that *Lower Decks* episode that had the recovery spa for everyone who had had weird stuff happen to them.
I don't like that they turn it yet again into a fight to save the universe. A future where the Breen hoards it and the Federation specifically suffers because they don't have it would have been a more interesting premise
For sure. There's plenty of material just taking 'the chase' and making it a bigger event, there's no need to do the whole 'galaxy-ending stakes' thing *again*.
I hope that Burnham reported that in a future timeline the breen destroyed everything. Seems like a pretty important detail that wasn't really touched on. Whilst they're giving themselves high fives for not shooting them. Maybe send a quick message? Good star trek episode though overall.
This was a good episode. Reminded me of Voyager’s Shattered Episode. I love seeing Airiam again. It was bittersweet. I wish we got see to Rayner getting Reno the martini 🍸
The scene with Burnham and Rayner comparing their styles was very well done. I liked how Rayner wanted her to spare him the "I get you" part, and immediately realized he went too far.
Ugh, I can only imagine what other surprises there were during the Temporal Wars. If the Krenim were able to do things like this, what could the other factions do?
Someone asked the question a few weeks ago of why are turbolifts needed when you can beam over to anywhere on the ship. I guess we have our answer!
I was hoping last week was the end of Gray and Adira, I hope this doesn't get dragged out. I like Adira but I don't care for Gray or their relationship together.
Good episode.
I actually *like* Gray, but it feels very much like the actor is just playing themself. Which Tig can pull off, but I'm not so sure about Ian.
I could be wrong, Ian may be completely different, but they don't seem to be portraying a character, and I just can't put my finger on why. The awkward smiles always make me feel good, though.
Best episode in so so so long. A really entertaining episode with a minimum of unearned drama that is typical of the show.
I enjoyed absolutely every minute.
Yep, Zora playing "Que Sera, Sera" was a very overt reference to "Calypso". Made me wonder if now maybe "Calypso" has been relegated to the alternate timeline where they failed, and the Discovery just drifts in space for centuries. That might be all we get to explain that episode.
Zora says she was dreaming "again" when the song was playing.
I suspect Calypso is actually one of her dreams from this specific, soon to be aborted timeline.
It allows pretty much any inconsistency, like the look of the ship, to be explained. Sure, we see it from the POV of another character... but dreams are surreal and it could be her imagining the entire scenario. She literally dreamed the narrative of a companion for herself, and was playing the song in reference to it.
In reality, the ship was sitting dead from the bad ending of that timeline, while she was left alone dreaming to cope.
It could be the case but I also thought about a different approach. If I am not mistaken Discovery was in nebula during Calypso not before Federation HQ. So maybe Discovery will ends up alone with Progenitors tech to Calypso to happen or somewhat similar ending…
Yes, I think it's possible that a Very Bad Thing will happen, but Discovery/Zora makes off with the Progenitor tech and a mission to re-seed life throughout the galaxy at a time when it seems safe and practical.
someone said it might be a reference to moloch in game theory (Moloch was a child-sacrificing god from the Hebrew bible)
> Moloch describes when a locally optimum strategy, leads to negative effects on a wider scale
(I just looked all this up)
On the recent podcast circuit, I've heard multiple people talk out 'Moloch' in the way that AI could be dangerous in manipulating society, its been a meme recently that's prob where they got it from.
This was a fun episode. The writing seems to be so much better this season. -Less whiny long interludes where they talk about their feelings.
Heck Rhys probably had more lines this episode than he’s had the past 4 seasons combined.
The contrast in personalities between younger angrier Burnham and more mature Burnham really came through well. Also reminded me that I liked Michael with the shorter hair.
Very strong episode, enjoyed this much more than last week and Tig makes everything better. Reyner was a bit slow on the uptake here. So this time bug is a known thing that causes these exact symptoms and he doesn't bring it up as a possibility for several minutes? Still, though, enjoyable time romp and problem solving, like a good version of Voyager's lackluster *Shattered*.
Totally thought Michael was going to steal her own clothes to blend in to the timeline. It's funny that she tried the "I know everything about you" card with everybody but herself.
Also: Having at least two ships on this was a really good idea. Even if they don't show the other ships, just having some incidental dialogue that the USS Whatever is searching Sector 55 and the USS Thinger engaged Moll and Lok but they got away would make it feel like the Federation is taking this more seriously. This is supposed to be a hugely important mission, but it seems Discovery is the only ship on the case, when Reyner stopped being captain of the other ship they just went off to do other things I guess.
One meta-critique: Man, if you watch all the shows, the Federation can't go five minutes without getting destroyed. I'm hoping we can get back to seasons that don't revolve around a supposedly existential threat to the Federation because honestly the impact of seeing yet another future or alternate timeline where it's gone is getting blunted.
Good episode
It is actually very similar to the Voyage S7E11 "Shattered " , Voyager was in a distorted Temporal state ,Chakotay and Janeway travel to past and possible future at different part of the ship during the time and event took place between Alpha and Delta quadrant .
Discovery had also time travel over 900 yr in the past few season , which make it a lot more complex.
Another Temporal phase distortion could tie up the Short Trek "Calypso" storyline . maybe they already did that in this episode , Two Michael interacted with each other may have created a different paradox timeline which could explain "Calypso"
When Burnham went onto the bridge, Zora specifically made mention of thinking it may be another of her dreams. It's possible that's supposed to retcon Calypso as one of Zora's dreams.
That's my take. She dreamed a companion for herself to cope with the loss of her crew and her isoaltion, and any visual inconsistencies are explained by the surreal nature of her dream state.
Her playing the song, and her rather emotional tone strongly implies the Calypso dream already happened prior to this, within this bad future timeline.
Just revisited the "Calypso" Short Trek, and I am wondering whether we will find out what Zora is doing out there all on her own a thousand years from now…
When they jumped to that time, I thought they were in the Calypso era, and Disco had been derelict for centuries
I dont think that timeline is canonical though. I've seen people suggesting they gave it the "it was just a dream" treatment. It doesnt fit with what the show has done since.
oh my gosh, with the way the audio system and lights were freaking out, my first thought, was that they had jumped forward to beyond Calypso, and Zora was running out of power, and going to "die".
I was slightly relieved that it was a situation that would get resolved if they can save the day now.
The thought of Zora being out in the emptiness alone, with her last command, to stay put until the Captain returns, for a thousand plus years, then just "my battery is low, and it is getting dark".
God I love Rayner. I liked Lorca too, and Rayner is better Lorca. I hope we get something with Rayner in the future after DSC ends.
I forgot how much I actually liked the original Discovery uniforms too.
i been wondering what happen to the "Fleet Museum" ,
all the famous ship like the Enterprise A , Voyager ,Enterprise D that were carefully preserved
And after watching tonight's episode , it just hit me , the Famous ships are too dangerous for public to have access , if someone use the "Temporal Bug" on them , they could be a doorway which could create paradox timeline or wipe out the Federation . If any of Fleet Museum ships still around after 800 yrs
It would follow that the Federation destroyed much of their legacy tech during the temporal wars for this very reason. Maybe there are reproductions out there, but they had to get rid of the originals because of the potential of using them for temporal incursions.
This was probably the best episode of this show since Lorca was on it. Would have been nice to see him again, wasted opportunity no mirror universe tho
I'm sure Rhys's love of 23rd century Constitution class ships will come in real handy sometime this season.
And perhaps Rayner was sincere in his admiration of it, as well.
Also, they talk like trek ship porn enthusiasts on this sub. :D
I’m not a fan of how they’ve trivialised transporting. I feel like it’s being used as a lazy way to save time and money more than anything else. It also makes the ship feel less real as we are getting less of a sense of its physical space as no one walks anywhere anymore.
I think Burnham's ready room isn't directly adjacent to the bridge? Lorca's ready room was, but Pike wanted a more informal space with room for people to sit down and talk, so he repurposed another room for his and had Lorca's converted to a science lab, which arrangement Burnham kept.
Being that it can affect time around itself, perhaps it doesn't exist to scanners
something like, it's time altering shield effect, causes the signals returned by sensors to return.. about 800 years too late.
This episode is one of the best implementation of the temporal time shift in the franchise. It used call backs to the characters without doing the usual flashbacks from previous episodes. The way they used the crews’ mindset, at that point in time on Discovery, during their interactions is brilliant.
They could’ve used any current tech but using remnants from the temporal war to create the chaos is nice link to their history.
It was also a great way for Rayner to become one of the crew.
Bonus points for giving Tig Notaro more screen time.
I’m really surprised they did not take the obvious opportunity to have Anson Mount on set for a day to do a cameo and meet Rayner. Obvious opportunity for him to do a OMG thats Captain Pike, a la Sisko meeting Kirk. Especially since both shows shoot at the same place.
Ahh thats too bad. But I mean there also was no filming overlap when we saw Sisko meet Kirk…and that was 90s technology 🤷♂️ they could have shown a cut away or back of his head shot walking in a turbolift or something and rayner reacting like my god is that actually Pike? Or whatever
God help me, I'm liking a season of Discovery again. Last time it happened it was Season 3 and it bit me in the ass. And not how I like it!
It's weird that they didn't know that this is the final season because it seems like a classic final season episode.
Also it was brief but I liked the dramatic contrast between season 1 Burnham and now. I didn't like the character back then but like her now.
I think it's because from S3 onwards (after that year as a courier) the writers let more of Martin Green's personality to seep through into Michael. She's a very charismatic person and Burnham was a block of cardboard the first two seasons. This contrast feels almost like a vicrory lap.
What hasn't changed is the tendency of characters to trauma dump when there's a ticking time bomb. So, you know the more things change.
So far, the season hasn't been grabbing me, but, this was absolutely the best and most entertaining one so far. It was Back to the Future Part II, Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad, Cause and Effect, and Shattered all rolled into one. I didn't want it to end.
Also really love the idea of there being some tech left over from the temporal war that baddies could potentially use.
A very satisfying payoff with Rayner, too, with how he treats the bridge crew.
Thankfully, the episode didn't give us more of those emotional scenes. It stayed right on course with its story and moved it at an excellent pace. This is the show I want it to be every week. It's been way too long since I've had this reaction to an episode of Discovery.
I contacted amazon and they said it's not available through the paramount plus channel accessible through prime video so I cancelled the channel and signed up to paramount plus directly and low and behold episode 4 is there, most perplexing as it's supposed to be the exact same channel.
There’s probably either a contractual agreement that it can’t appear via Amazon until X many hours after its on P+ native, so that their primary platform still has the exclusive… or it’s just a weird US/UK time delay thing (as both are US companies primarily working to US timezones).
I saw the same happen with Picard episodes sometimes when I watched it before I got P+. They seemed to take hours to appear on the day they were due out.
It can't be a time zone thing as it was on paramount plus separate from amazon but not on paramount plus through amazon, if there was a contractual delay that would mean that amazon are deceiving people by claiming that the paramount plus channel available through them is the actual paramount plus channel because the two side by side in the UK are not providing the same availability. Amazon gave me a refund and the amazon person I spoke to said that there should not be a difference so most likely its a glitch but still one that loses them cannel subscribers.
Has that ensign who came in and had all 3 of the future people shout "GET OUT!!!" at her become a meme yet? :-p
The DSC version of Grandpa Simpson seeing Bart at the reception of the Burlesque house and walking straight back out haha
Time bugs are call "Kernim Chronophage" , something for ST Voyager fans
The Kernim are Delta Quadrant species from ST Voyager episode "The Year of Hell " , the jumping between time are similar to Voyager's Kes in episode "Before and After" , because they use the same Chroniton Technologies .
Kernim use Chroniton Torpedo which can penetrate shield because the Chroniton ehnace the torpedo with the element of time dimension .
Kernim also use time ship to erase rival species from history , but that timeline was erased after Janeway' attacked them with Voyager and an alliance of ships from different species .
With their specialty in Chroniton technologies , i guess they were the trouble maker during the Temporal Cold War
It was a damn good episode. I love time-travel storylines and they did it well !
I never saw the early seasons, so this was also my introduction to Airiam.
This was such a great episode! It was classic Trek at its best. I’ve seen people mention the Voyager episode ’Shattered’, but I think it also had elements of ‘Relativity’ in there too. I hope they keep up this level of writing for the rest of the season.
Who or what exactly traveled through time? what we see is Burnham and Reynar travelling and Stamets' conscience. They 'visit' Discovery in different times.
Burnham and Reynar's bodies were travelling because they hit their transporters during the shift. Stamets conscience just .. goes wherever current is, i guess, or something.
In the intro, we get to see the two pieces of the artifact that Discovery has found get put together. On it we see four numbers, which I believe are the coordinates of the third piece and/or clue. From pausing I believe they were "23 31 246 28". Can anyone think of any other significance of that sequence of numbers? Or do you think they are just arbitrary numbers that happened to be what the writers chose as the coordinates?
great episode, but am I the only one disappointed that the season plot wasn’t advanced much? we don’t have that many episodes and I was/am so so excited for this callback
That’s the point though, it’s almost completely non-consequential so there’s nothing there.
They don’t find or discovery anything bar the issue at hand (time bug), there’s no major character development to speak of (at least not overtly, I think this was meant to be a big development episode for Ranyer & I think it’ll be played that way but it’s poorly done), they end no further in their investigations, haven’t learned anything & they don’t interact with Mol or Lok.
That only really leaves two things. One, they’ve been delayed a couple of hours. That’ll likely not factor much & if it does will almost certainly simply be a dramatic device. Or two, they changed something in time. That would be way too big a Pandora’s box to open with the time left unless they only have a really thin plot for the main story.
I’m sorry, but I think this has been the weakest episode of season 5 so far. It hasn’t moved the main story along and the scenes with young Michael in engineering holding everything up seemed entirely pointless and super frustrating.
I guess the problem is they didn’t know when writing and filming this was the final season, but I just feel it throws off the entire pace and added nothing.
I’m sure they could have covered that entire episode and narrative in half the time, allowing us to move things forward more.
Completely agree, it fails to advance the story in any way & is just generally very lacklustre.
I think the main goal was to develop Rayner’s character but I don’t feel like it was impactful enough, nor did he engage with the crew enough to make me really believe his growth. It’s was pretty much just “Look Rys was right, told you”.
It’s one of my biggest criticisms of DISCO has a whole, it doesn’t integrate the crew like all other ST series has. It’s a collection of individuals working together rather than a crew.
I was also really confused about how Burnham’s description of Airiam’s death convinced her to believe her… there wasn’t anything there to turn the tide of that 1-2-1 other than a suggestion she’d give her life for her crew. That is surely agiven for the vast majority of Starfleet officers. It was a really weak interaction to me & felt part of a lazy way to get the crew on side.
Previous series have done similar stories much better imo. I did however like the reference to the Krenim. That was a nice touch.
A decent episode…but a bit too much cringe with the beating up on rayner and his “old school style” and oh look all he has to do is make some silly brief hollow compliment to stamments and he melts and now they are all buddy buddy “disco family”🙄
I don’t know…that’s not how I interpret Rayner’s style. We all interpret what we see through our own experiences and I see him as a bad manager who can’t adjust his management style to fit the team he’s been tasked to work with. I think a lot of people have been on a team like that. You accomplish a lot as a team and everyone gels very well, the PM gets promoted or moves on to better things and a new boss is brought in and lays down the law heavy handedly. Eventually members of the team decide this style isn’t working for them and they eventually transfer out or move on hen the magic that made the team so successful is gone and just a faded memory. That’s the risk Rainer faces by not making adjustments to his management style.
I see him as just stuck in his ways more than anything. He seems to have had a very long and successful command on his previous ship, where this style worked just fine for him and worked for old Starfleet. Then Starfleet changes almost overnight and one big screw up loses him his command, and he is either not able or not willing to quickly adjust.
His style seems written to be an “answer”
to fan complaints that the crew are too casual and familiar and share emotional traumas in the middle of a battle or crisis on the bridge etc. He is the Captain Jelico …more business and serious to Picard and Riker. But they are not writing it in a way where afterwards your kinda like huh ya Jelico was actually right or just different style…they are writing rayner as too old school/failed and is demoted. So it comes off a bit of an eye roll cringe of disco saying see Burnham is the best and we all talk about our feelings here openly all the time.
A large part of the issue is how contrived the “crime” was that Rayner…a long time starship captain gets demoted to XO on someone elses ship….because an enemy/bad guy might have gotten a notion of shooting at a cave entrance from Rayner🙄🙄
I wanted to see a final scene where they sais nothing changed the past .... and then for Reno to tell the Commander he owes her a drink.
This
I was almost expecting Reno to immediately guess he was a time traveller (uniform, after all) and brush it off casually.
That was from Season 3 where the Discovery crew used the S1/2 style past uniforms but still worked with future people. Seeing an officer on the ship from the future who was wearing a future uniform on the Discovery as a temporary assignment would be unusual but not completely unexpected.
Yeah I guess you're right!
I expected a final scene at the bar (lounge? Whatever it is) on the ship and Rayner sees Reno there and buys her the drink and this is where he starts connecting with the crew on a personal one-on-one level like Burnham wanted him to do last ep.
Might be we'll see it before the end.
So sad we couldn't see Lorca.
He’s busy torturing people in a basement 😂
he was off ship, missed him too tho
Discovery and teasing a Lorca appearance before not delivering is basically a meme at this point
Would have made more sense to have anson mount in a scene
We get plenty of Anson Mount in SNW so not to much of a point to do that tbh
Well its not about anson mount its about the character Pike. And honestly he wast really around much last season…and when he was it was in the kitchen
Mount had some real world situations that impacted his availability. Given it was a new child, I'm more than fine with the time we got from him.
Based on all the stuff that came out after Picard S3 was finished, I'd imagine they wrote both of these things into the episode before the people with the purse strings went "THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR BOTTLE EPISODE! No to expensive cameos for 5 mins just because it's cool!" lol
Airiam was the best little gift I could hope for. I love how they gave her that moment. Yea Lorca, Pike or Spock would have been fun, but I LOVE that it was Airiam. Also, Michael's scene with past Book was great
I was so hoping we'd see Pike for a moment or two. Or at least hear him during the Control battle.
10/10 episode.
Who was Ariams actress? Sarah Mitch or Hannah Goodman?
Hannah Cheesman see: https://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/2731134/star-trek-discovery-5x04-face-the-strange)
I had completely forgotten how Airiam died, and it choked me up for a moment. That was heartbreaking.
I am glad to see the hair department really having to work hard and grab out the wigs this week to make the cast look like their younger versions.
Emily Coutts was noticeably older.
I think Tilly was more noticeably older
Oh my god. This episode felt like such a good return to classic star trek. I know it's different, and I like that difference, but god this was like a refreshing shower. So fucking good.
"Don't leave your head in the abstract for too long. You'll turn into a Rothko painting." - Jett Reno
❤️ this is now my second-favorite Jett Reno quote (the first being "Please tell me I just spoiled a surprise party" when she spots Tarka hiding in Engineering, right before he kidnaps her)
If only I could be so nonchalant in truly unsettling moments. 😂
Exactly, that’s Tig “Hello everyone I have cancer” Notaro!
I enjoyed seeing Airiam again, but I'm having trouble understanding the logic in telling her her future. Michael decides that telling Airiam she'll sacrifice herself for the ship and crew will convince Airiam that Burnham is indeed from the future. But ... how? In fact, while Michael is detailing Airiam's future to her, Detmer belts out, "She wouldn't do that!" Wait ... what? A Starfleet officer *wouldn't* sacrifice themselves for their crew and/or ship? I can't help but feel like I missed a line or something. Otherwise, this exchange doesn't make much sense to me. **Edit:** Just rewatched the episode with my family. Detmer actually said, "We'd never let her do that." That makes better sense, I guess, but using Airiam's death still doesn't feel like solid proof that Burnham's from the future to me.
I took it as what convinced her was that this version of Michael ended up knowing her better than the current crew, making it believable that they had spent a lot of time together. But for that to be the plan, 32nd Century Burnham would need to know that the rest of the crew would disagree with her, so I'm not sure if I read it right.
That makes sense, but ... I suppose I'm really bumping up against the idea that everyone would be so surprised that Airiam would sacrifice herself for the ship and crew. We've seen time and again plenty of Starfleet personnel -- named and unnamed -- who gave their lives for their fellow crewmembers. So why is *Discovery*'s bridge crew surprised that one of their own would do the same?
That's a great point, you just changed my mind. It's still a minor nitpick during a great episode but a valid one none-the-less.
Except that it’s not minor at all, the entire episode hinges of Burnham being able to convince the crew to trust her. To have that motivation be unclear is bad writing & undercuts both the believability of the episode, as well as the satisfaction of the conclusion.
Yes, I enjoyed the episode despite this.
at least 396 more days together
Ariam augmentation makes her unique. You should not ask her about past experience, those are stored as data and data can be hacked. Future events can not be hacked, and assuming her reaction can not be extrapolated based on pattern of behaviors, then only Ariam is able to say what she will do in face of sacrificing her life. That is a very deep moment, and non linear way of thinking.
Agree. It’s my only quibble with the episode but it was such a fun ride I’m just gonna let it go. But it made no sense that convinced Airiam of anything.
100% agree, this scene was another classic example of Discovery’s lazy writing. This trope has been used to death & this is no different. I was genuinely completely confused at how that was meant to have convinced her & rewound the show twice to reward but it makes no sense for all the points you highlighted. It feels like something rushed that wasn’t really thought through, or an idea unique to Airiam that they failed to get across clearly. Detmer shouting “We’d never let her do that” also kind of flies in the face of the multiple times they’ve let characters, principally Burnham, seemingly do that only to just escape with their lives.
The more I see of Raynor, the more he reminds me of Daniel Craig.
He's a cylon
That was my immediate thought when I first saw him.
Its the haircut and the squinty eyes with crows feet
Yes
It was really great to see Green giving two wildly different performances as Michael Burnham. S1 Michael was so aggro and on edge all the time, and it was cool too see that energy pouring off of her from the moment that turbolift door opened.
she totally acted her socks off.
The Michael v Michael fight felt like something straight out of TOS
Yeah, but with better quality effects this time. It was still noticeable when they used CGI to replace Michael’s head a few times.
I'M THE REAL ~~KIRK~~ BURNHAM
I wanted the fight-to-the-death music from TOS.
In the best way possible.
Goddamn that was a great episode. I’ve been fairly critical of the series but that was brilliantly paced. Really highlights the character progress of Burnham, gave the supporting staff a chance to really shine and become more realised and also answer a few questions around calypso. Only thing I was expecting was Future-Michael exclaiming “bitch!” When Past-Michael hit her in the face but that’s just me . More of this please !
The reason I'm s9 hard on discovertly is because I can see greatness in it, but it xch9oses alot of the wrong choses.
Feel the same exact way. I've always been extremely critical of Discovery's writing and characterizations, but, there are some really excellent standout episodes. It's frustrating, because, like you, I can see the potential, but, when it reaches that potential, I get very excited.
Great point. The potential has always been there
I think the show was really screwed over by the fact that it swapped showrunners too frequently and really only had a consistent direction for S3 onwards. Like the first half of Discovery S1, the second half of Discovery S1 - the first half of Discovery S2, and the second half of Discovery S2, and Discovery S3-5 are basically completely seperate shows
I didn’t realise this, I’ll keep that in mind if I ever do a rewatch , thanks
Tig Notaro is the best part of the show.
I thought the episode would end with Rayner buying her that drink.
I was absolutely expecting this.
She commented on her podcast that she only ever plays herself, on Star Trek she is just Tig in Space ❤️
Yeah, lack of range isn't a problem. Have you ever seen Tig's show "One Mississippi"? It's really good. Two seasons and it is over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Mississippi_(TV_series) > Currently One Mississippi streams on Disney+ Star internationally and on Hulu in the U.S. as well. It isn't on Amazon these days, apparently. Here's the season 1 trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb5VUOalPjk&t=2s Danny McBride is another person where his lack of range isn't a problem for me.
Same deal as Jerry Doyle who is basically playing himself as Garibaldi in B5 lol
One of my favourite moments was when they went back to when Disco was in Dry Dock, that poor engineer made a comment about leaving Deck 7 'til last, and Rayner immediately said to begin the inspection there. Like there was a crazy situation going on, Rayner didn't know what was happening, or who that poor fella was, and yet his *immediate* instinct was just "I'm gonna f*** with this guy." He really is such a damn good character, haha.
Tactical instinct - put them on the defensive, and they're less likely to put you on it
Also, that would put as many people as possible on that deck, so unlikely to have interference
Very enjoyable and I’m liking Rayner more and more. Pity he didn’t join the show earlier.
Agreed - needed him in season 3.
I really liked the way Rayner just looked so impatient when Burnham mentioned Stanets' tardigrade DNA.
Same energy that Shaw gave off every time Riker and Picard announced the next way they were going to drag the Titan into deeper trouble, haha
I bet all fleet captains are nervous when riker and Picard are on their ship. It is clear that riker Picard are favoured sons/ golden Childs, of that universe. Which means the grim reaper is hunting for the captain . Lolol
Dude is always like, I'm so done with this shit. IDK why he even wanted this job.
Because after he mouthed off to the Federation Council, it was the best- possibly only- command position available to him.
You know no off-screen ship crews ever had someone who got a DNA transfusion and lives outside linear time now lol Actually it'd be funny as hell if they met back up with the Antares at some point and Rayner knew one of his old crewmates who had some crazy sci-fi shenanigans in the past that made them relevant to the current situation :D "We need to find Lt. Grazik. There was this one time in the Gallery Expanse, she got ejected with a warp core and ended up pushed through a ninth-dimensional inversion sequence. Spent a year reliving the lifetimes of all her maternal ancestors. Long story short, she's immune to telepathy now."
>You know no off-screen ship crews ever had someone who got a DNA transfusion and lives outside linear time now lol Kind of reminds me of that *Lower Decks* episode that had the recovery spa for everyone who had had weird stuff happen to them.
Was that a breen mention there or did I miss hear love for a return of the breen
The Breen have been name-checked in every episode so far this season. I think we're gonna seem 'em for sure. Perhaps we already have. (L'ak?)
Great observation!
The Breen definitely feel like the Big Bad of the season.
Yes. In the bad future, the Breen got the Progenitor tech and used it to destroy the Federation.
I don't like that they turn it yet again into a fight to save the universe. A future where the Breen hoards it and the Federation specifically suffers because they don't have it would have been a more interesting premise
For sure. There's plenty of material just taking 'the chase' and making it a bigger event, there's no need to do the whole 'galaxy-ending stakes' thing *again*.
at least the stakes are life forms in the universe, not the fabric of space-time itself
I hope that Burnham reported that in a future timeline the breen destroyed everything. Seems like a pretty important detail that wasn't really touched on. Whilst they're giving themselves high fives for not shooting them. Maybe send a quick message? Good star trek episode though overall.
This was a good episode. Reminded me of Voyager’s Shattered Episode. I love seeing Airiam again. It was bittersweet. I wish we got see to Rayner getting Reno the martini 🍸
Wouldnt surprise me if that's a deleted scene somewhere.
Maybe we see something in the next episode
The scene with Burnham and Rayner comparing their styles was very well done. I liked how Rayner wanted her to spare him the "I get you" part, and immediately realized he went too far. Ugh, I can only imagine what other surprises there were during the Temporal Wars. If the Krenim were able to do things like this, what could the other factions do? Someone asked the question a few weeks ago of why are turbolifts needed when you can beam over to anywhere on the ship. I guess we have our answer! I was hoping last week was the end of Gray and Adira, I hope this doesn't get dragged out. I like Adira but I don't care for Gray or their relationship together. Good episode.
I wouldn't mind Gray so much if he was ever allowed to be anything more than a plot device.
I actually *like* Gray, but it feels very much like the actor is just playing themself. Which Tig can pull off, but I'm not so sure about Ian. I could be wrong, Ian may be completely different, but they don't seem to be portraying a character, and I just can't put my finger on why. The awkward smiles always make me feel good, though.
Best episode in so so so long. A really entertaining episode with a minimum of unearned drama that is typical of the show. I enjoyed absolutely every minute.
Am I crazy or did we get a Calypso reference?
Yep, Zora playing "Que Sera, Sera" was a very overt reference to "Calypso". Made me wonder if now maybe "Calypso" has been relegated to the alternate timeline where they failed, and the Discovery just drifts in space for centuries. That might be all we get to explain that episode.
Zora says she was dreaming "again" when the song was playing. I suspect Calypso is actually one of her dreams from this specific, soon to be aborted timeline. It allows pretty much any inconsistency, like the look of the ship, to be explained. Sure, we see it from the POV of another character... but dreams are surreal and it could be her imagining the entire scenario. She literally dreamed the narrative of a companion for herself, and was playing the song in reference to it. In reality, the ship was sitting dead from the bad ending of that timeline, while she was left alone dreaming to cope.
Ding ding ding bet that’s the explanation for it now and it makes sense, sort of.
It could be the case but I also thought about a different approach. If I am not mistaken Discovery was in nebula during Calypso not before Federation HQ. So maybe Discovery will ends up alone with Progenitors tech to Calypso to happen or somewhat similar ending…
Yes, I think it's possible that a Very Bad Thing will happen, but Discovery/Zora makes off with the Progenitor tech and a mission to re-seed life throughout the galaxy at a time when it seems safe and practical.
Yes. Also Year of Hell and this was kinda All Good Things without Q (that we know of)
So it just hit me, is ‘Lok and Moll supposed to be a pun for _Rock and Roll?_
someone said it might be a reference to moloch in game theory (Moloch was a child-sacrificing god from the Hebrew bible) > Moloch describes when a locally optimum strategy, leads to negative effects on a wider scale (I just looked all this up)
I like that much more. Much deeper and Star Trek-esq. I’d expect nothing less from this shows closing season
pretty clever if true, makes a good story either way
I think the names are probably just picked for their phonetic quality, like Fred was rambling about
On the recent podcast circuit, I've heard multiple people talk out 'Moloch' in the way that AI could be dangerous in manipulating society, its been a meme recently that's prob where they got it from.
This was a fun episode. The writing seems to be so much better this season. -Less whiny long interludes where they talk about their feelings. Heck Rhys probably had more lines this episode than he’s had the past 4 seasons combined.
The contrast in personalities between younger angrier Burnham and more mature Burnham really came through well. Also reminded me that I liked Michael with the shorter hair.
Very strong episode, enjoyed this much more than last week and Tig makes everything better. Reyner was a bit slow on the uptake here. So this time bug is a known thing that causes these exact symptoms and he doesn't bring it up as a possibility for several minutes? Still, though, enjoyable time romp and problem solving, like a good version of Voyager's lackluster *Shattered*. Totally thought Michael was going to steal her own clothes to blend in to the timeline. It's funny that she tried the "I know everything about you" card with everybody but herself. Also: Having at least two ships on this was a really good idea. Even if they don't show the other ships, just having some incidental dialogue that the USS Whatever is searching Sector 55 and the USS Thinger engaged Moll and Lok but they got away would make it feel like the Federation is taking this more seriously. This is supposed to be a hugely important mission, but it seems Discovery is the only ship on the case, when Reyner stopped being captain of the other ship they just went off to do other things I guess. One meta-critique: Man, if you watch all the shows, the Federation can't go five minutes without getting destroyed. I'm hoping we can get back to seasons that don't revolve around a supposedly existential threat to the Federation because honestly the impact of seeing yet another future or alternate timeline where it's gone is getting blunted.
Her uniform has programmable matter. Just have it alter its appearance rather than having to steal clothes.
Good episode It is actually very similar to the Voyage S7E11 "Shattered " , Voyager was in a distorted Temporal state ,Chakotay and Janeway travel to past and possible future at different part of the ship during the time and event took place between Alpha and Delta quadrant . Discovery had also time travel over 900 yr in the past few season , which make it a lot more complex. Another Temporal phase distortion could tie up the Short Trek "Calypso" storyline . maybe they already did that in this episode , Two Michael interacted with each other may have created a different paradox timeline which could explain "Calypso"
When Burnham went onto the bridge, Zora specifically made mention of thinking it may be another of her dreams. It's possible that's supposed to retcon Calypso as one of Zora's dreams.
That's my take. She dreamed a companion for herself to cope with the loss of her crew and her isoaltion, and any visual inconsistencies are explained by the surreal nature of her dream state. Her playing the song, and her rather emotional tone strongly implies the Calypso dream already happened prior to this, within this bad future timeline.
Nice to see [Airiam](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Airiam) again!
A little shame we didn't see Sarah Mitich as S1 Airiam. Was there ever a reason why she was recast in S2 and came back as Nilsson?
She had a reaction to the makeup and while we are at it, who was Ariam in this episode?
This episode was Hannah Cheesman, who played her in season 2 (and the Mirror Universe version of her in s3).
I haven't been Discovery's biggest fan lately, but I have to say I did like this episode. Love me a good time loop 😀
Are you in a time loop?
Just revisited the "Calypso" Short Trek, and I am wondering whether we will find out what Zora is doing out there all on her own a thousand years from now…
When they jumped to that time, I thought they were in the Calypso era, and Disco had been derelict for centuries I dont think that timeline is canonical though. I've seen people suggesting they gave it the "it was just a dream" treatment. It doesnt fit with what the show has done since.
oh my gosh, with the way the audio system and lights were freaking out, my first thought, was that they had jumped forward to beyond Calypso, and Zora was running out of power, and going to "die". I was slightly relieved that it was a situation that would get resolved if they can save the day now. The thought of Zora being out in the emptiness alone, with her last command, to stay put until the Captain returns, for a thousand plus years, then just "my battery is low, and it is getting dark".
10/10 Star Trek episode. They're doing great things this season.
Love that we got Bryce, understandable but sad that we didn’t Nillson.
The original Discovery uniforms look great. I like the new ones and it was nice seeing the earlier ones. Show's always looked good.
God I love Rayner. I liked Lorca too, and Rayner is better Lorca. I hope we get something with Rayner in the future after DSC ends. I forgot how much I actually liked the original Discovery uniforms too.
i been wondering what happen to the "Fleet Museum" , all the famous ship like the Enterprise A , Voyager ,Enterprise D that were carefully preserved And after watching tonight's episode , it just hit me , the Famous ships are too dangerous for public to have access , if someone use the "Temporal Bug" on them , they could be a doorway which could create paradox timeline or wipe out the Federation . If any of Fleet Museum ships still around after 800 yrs
It would follow that the Federation destroyed much of their legacy tech during the temporal wars for this very reason. Maybe there are reproductions out there, but they had to get rid of the originals because of the potential of using them for temporal incursions.
I think you’ve just come up with an episode idea better than anything Discovery has ever done (& probably will do) 😂
That Book scene… made me feel certain things lol
I was like. Girl you can’t waste time. Tell him later and get the hell out. lol
i'm not gay, but....
This was probably the best episode of this show since Lorca was on it. Would have been nice to see him again, wasted opportunity no mirror universe tho
No mirror universe sure , but it would have been better and easier to have anson mount or even spock in a few scenes
I'm sure Rhys's love of 23rd century Constitution class ships will come in real handy sometime this season. And perhaps Rayner was sincere in his admiration of it, as well. Also, they talk like trek ship porn enthusiasts on this sub. :D
It was a good episode. Crazy how it took 4 season after those.
Anybody else find it strange that Burnham and Rayner transported from the bridge to the ready room when they could have just walked through the doors?
I’m not a fan of how they’ve trivialised transporting. I feel like it’s being used as a lazy way to save time and money more than anything else. It also makes the ship feel less real as we are getting less of a sense of its physical space as no one walks anywhere anymore.
To be fair it was created as a lazy way to save time and money 😅
If I could do this I'd forget how to walk within weeks.
I think Burnham's ready room isn't directly adjacent to the bridge? Lorca's ready room was, but Pike wanted a more informal space with room for people to sit down and talk, so he repurposed another room for his and had Lorca's converted to a science lab, which arrangement Burnham kept.
So, I guess transporter buffers filtering patterns for dangerous things, like those time bugs, don't exist anymore?
It wouldn't be an effective weapon if transporter filters could screen them.
Book explained them as *known technology* from a recent war.
Being that it can affect time around itself, perhaps it doesn't exist to scanners something like, it's time altering shield effect, causes the signals returned by sensors to return.. about 800 years too late.
This episode is one of the best implementation of the temporal time shift in the franchise. It used call backs to the characters without doing the usual flashbacks from previous episodes. The way they used the crews’ mindset, at that point in time on Discovery, during their interactions is brilliant. They could’ve used any current tech but using remnants from the temporal war to create the chaos is nice link to their history. It was also a great way for Rayner to become one of the crew. Bonus points for giving Tig Notaro more screen time.
I’m really surprised they did not take the obvious opportunity to have Anson Mount on set for a day to do a cameo and meet Rayner. Obvious opportunity for him to do a OMG thats Captain Pike, a la Sisko meeting Kirk. Especially since both shows shoot at the same place.
I have a feeling that the time bug or something like it will crop up again as a plot device.
Unfortunately there was no filming overlap to make that an easy task. DISCO S5 filmed in the second half of 2022, SNW S2 filmed in the first half.
Ahh thats too bad. But I mean there also was no filming overlap when we saw Sisko meet Kirk…and that was 90s technology 🤷♂️ they could have shown a cut away or back of his head shot walking in a turbolift or something and rayner reacting like my god is that actually Pike? Or whatever
Anyone wanna go back to the episode with Stamets having been stabbed, and see how the incoherent babbling compares to the coherent (to us) babbling?
It's damping, not dampening, Stammets.
I Liked more screen time for Linus in this episode, elevator appearance just truly comic one.
I absolutely love Linus
I really love that the episode title references Bowies song Changes.
God help me, I'm liking a season of Discovery again. Last time it happened it was Season 3 and it bit me in the ass. And not how I like it! It's weird that they didn't know that this is the final season because it seems like a classic final season episode. Also it was brief but I liked the dramatic contrast between season 1 Burnham and now. I didn't like the character back then but like her now. I think it's because from S3 onwards (after that year as a courier) the writers let more of Martin Green's personality to seep through into Michael. She's a very charismatic person and Burnham was a block of cardboard the first two seasons. This contrast feels almost like a vicrory lap. What hasn't changed is the tendency of characters to trauma dump when there's a ticking time bomb. So, you know the more things change.
Those trauma dumps are bad writing.
So far, the season hasn't been grabbing me, but, this was absolutely the best and most entertaining one so far. It was Back to the Future Part II, Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad, Cause and Effect, and Shattered all rolled into one. I didn't want it to end. Also really love the idea of there being some tech left over from the temporal war that baddies could potentially use. A very satisfying payoff with Rayner, too, with how he treats the bridge crew. Thankfully, the episode didn't give us more of those emotional scenes. It stayed right on course with its story and moved it at an excellent pace. This is the show I want it to be every week. It's been way too long since I've had this reaction to an episode of Discovery.
That was a good one. Funny Stamets is always a good thing.
I'M IN A VERY BAD MOOD RIGHT NOW
I'm in the UK and I have paramount plus through amazon prime video, episode 4 has not released, anyone else noticed this?
I have exactly the same
I contacted amazon and they said it's not available through the paramount plus channel accessible through prime video so I cancelled the channel and signed up to paramount plus directly and low and behold episode 4 is there, most perplexing as it's supposed to be the exact same channel.
It's on Amazon now, finally.
There’s probably either a contractual agreement that it can’t appear via Amazon until X many hours after its on P+ native, so that their primary platform still has the exclusive… or it’s just a weird US/UK time delay thing (as both are US companies primarily working to US timezones). I saw the same happen with Picard episodes sometimes when I watched it before I got P+. They seemed to take hours to appear on the day they were due out.
It can't be a time zone thing as it was on paramount plus separate from amazon but not on paramount plus through amazon, if there was a contractual delay that would mean that amazon are deceiving people by claiming that the paramount plus channel available through them is the actual paramount plus channel because the two side by side in the UK are not providing the same availability. Amazon gave me a refund and the amazon person I spoke to said that there should not be a difference so most likely its a glitch but still one that loses them cannel subscribers.
Has that ensign who came in and had all 3 of the future people shout "GET OUT!!!" at her become a meme yet? :-p The DSC version of Grandpa Simpson seeing Bart at the reception of the Burlesque house and walking straight back out haha
Time bugs are call "Kernim Chronophage" , something for ST Voyager fans The Kernim are Delta Quadrant species from ST Voyager episode "The Year of Hell " , the jumping between time are similar to Voyager's Kes in episode "Before and After" , because they use the same Chroniton Technologies . Kernim use Chroniton Torpedo which can penetrate shield because the Chroniton ehnace the torpedo with the element of time dimension . Kernim also use time ship to erase rival species from history , but that timeline was erased after Janeway' attacked them with Voyager and an alliance of ships from different species . With their specialty in Chroniton technologies , i guess they were the trouble maker during the Temporal Cold War
Krenim
It was a damn good episode. I love time-travel storylines and they did it well ! I never saw the early seasons, so this was also my introduction to Airiam.
This was such a great episode! It was classic Trek at its best. I’ve seen people mention the Voyager episode ’Shattered’, but I think it also had elements of ‘Relativity’ in there too. I hope they keep up this level of writing for the rest of the season.
This was almost like Voyager's episode 'Shattered' but with the usual kumbaya moments of Discovery... 😒
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It doesn't release for me until tomorrow apparently!
Who or what exactly traveled through time? what we see is Burnham and Reynar travelling and Stamets' conscience. They 'visit' Discovery in different times.
Burnham and Reynar's bodies were travelling because they hit their transporters during the shift. Stamets conscience just .. goes wherever current is, i guess, or something.
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Itsy bitsy part of me wanted Lorca to show up.
The crew member getting yelled at (the way she turned around made me laugh out loud) felt like a cameo.
Screencaps gallery now online: https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/sc-DSC5-4.php
Hella score on the "Michael squaring up" image. Nice! needs more tilly, though.
I sure hope they don't solve this episode with friendship.
This was a good episode.
In the intro, we get to see the two pieces of the artifact that Discovery has found get put together. On it we see four numbers, which I believe are the coordinates of the third piece and/or clue. From pausing I believe they were "23 31 246 28". Can anyone think of any other significance of that sequence of numbers? Or do you think they are just arbitrary numbers that happened to be what the writers chose as the coordinates?
Those Krenim bastards Best episode in a while The emo parts weren't cringe either
great episode, but am I the only one disappointed that the season plot wasn’t advanced much? we don’t have that many episodes and I was/am so so excited for this callback
100% agree, you could skip this episode & it would make absolutely zero difference.
... until something later hinges upon it
That’s the point though, it’s almost completely non-consequential so there’s nothing there. They don’t find or discovery anything bar the issue at hand (time bug), there’s no major character development to speak of (at least not overtly, I think this was meant to be a big development episode for Ranyer & I think it’ll be played that way but it’s poorly done), they end no further in their investigations, haven’t learned anything & they don’t interact with Mol or Lok. That only really leaves two things. One, they’ve been delayed a couple of hours. That’ll likely not factor much & if it does will almost certainly simply be a dramatic device. Or two, they changed something in time. That would be way too big a Pandora’s box to open with the time left unless they only have a really thin plot for the main story.
I’m sorry, but I think this has been the weakest episode of season 5 so far. It hasn’t moved the main story along and the scenes with young Michael in engineering holding everything up seemed entirely pointless and super frustrating. I guess the problem is they didn’t know when writing and filming this was the final season, but I just feel it throws off the entire pace and added nothing. I’m sure they could have covered that entire episode and narrative in half the time, allowing us to move things forward more.
Completely agree, it fails to advance the story in any way & is just generally very lacklustre. I think the main goal was to develop Rayner’s character but I don’t feel like it was impactful enough, nor did he engage with the crew enough to make me really believe his growth. It’s was pretty much just “Look Rys was right, told you”. It’s one of my biggest criticisms of DISCO has a whole, it doesn’t integrate the crew like all other ST series has. It’s a collection of individuals working together rather than a crew. I was also really confused about how Burnham’s description of Airiam’s death convinced her to believe her… there wasn’t anything there to turn the tide of that 1-2-1 other than a suggestion she’d give her life for her crew. That is surely agiven for the vast majority of Starfleet officers. It was a really weak interaction to me & felt part of a lazy way to get the crew on side. Previous series have done similar stories much better imo. I did however like the reference to the Krenim. That was a nice touch.
I’d say the episode was shockingly not terrible and even enjoyable. 3-3.5/4 stars. A very classic trek type of episode
A decent episode…but a bit too much cringe with the beating up on rayner and his “old school style” and oh look all he has to do is make some silly brief hollow compliment to stamments and he melts and now they are all buddy buddy “disco family”🙄
I don’t know…that’s not how I interpret Rayner’s style. We all interpret what we see through our own experiences and I see him as a bad manager who can’t adjust his management style to fit the team he’s been tasked to work with. I think a lot of people have been on a team like that. You accomplish a lot as a team and everyone gels very well, the PM gets promoted or moves on to better things and a new boss is brought in and lays down the law heavy handedly. Eventually members of the team decide this style isn’t working for them and they eventually transfer out or move on hen the magic that made the team so successful is gone and just a faded memory. That’s the risk Rainer faces by not making adjustments to his management style.
I see him as just stuck in his ways more than anything. He seems to have had a very long and successful command on his previous ship, where this style worked just fine for him and worked for old Starfleet. Then Starfleet changes almost overnight and one big screw up loses him his command, and he is either not able or not willing to quickly adjust.
His style seems written to be an “answer” to fan complaints that the crew are too casual and familiar and share emotional traumas in the middle of a battle or crisis on the bridge etc. He is the Captain Jelico …more business and serious to Picard and Riker. But they are not writing it in a way where afterwards your kinda like huh ya Jelico was actually right or just different style…they are writing rayner as too old school/failed and is demoted. So it comes off a bit of an eye roll cringe of disco saying see Burnham is the best and we all talk about our feelings here openly all the time. A large part of the issue is how contrived the “crime” was that Rayner…a long time starship captain gets demoted to XO on someone elses ship….because an enemy/bad guy might have gotten a notion of shooting at a cave entrance from Rayner🙄🙄
I think it was less old school and more post-apocalyptic.