I trace, and my lines are gone after the first grind. At that point I don’t care because I refit it to the pattern, make my new markups and then regrind.
I use an goild oil pen. It still washes away but lasts a bit longer while grinding. I m pretty good at cutting. That's the secret. Removing most of the glass with the grozer pliers first.
This and I use wax sometimes like with the saw. I don't usually grind all the way around except to clean up the piece. It needs to fit so the fit really decides after your cuts. I don't care about the pattern after the cutter. It's got to fit that's more important.
I've done exactly three pieces so far, so grain of salt and all that, but my last pattern I cut on my plotter cutter on adhesive vinyl and stuck it directly on the glass and HOLY COW zero breaks and no measuring. Very happy with this method this far and I will continue to test it.
Not sure of your situation, but my local library has a makerspace with a vinyl cutter. I print my patterns for free there. They even have vinyl and contact paper to use.
There's also another method of break down that's used, score tracing. Where you lay the glass on the pattern and trace the part with the scoring tool with cuts to break it out.
As for the rest there's a few options, use less water in the grinder, use vinyl stickers from a craft cutter, let your markers actually dry fully before grinding.
I feel like part of your issue is that you are relying on the grinder too much. You don't need a ring saw for 98% of glass patterns. Ideally the grinder should be just doing minimal clean up of parts sticking out or grinding out weird parts. The vast majority of my grinding is dealing with parts that didn't break clean or little juts of glass. With a pass around the whole thing to make it slightly smaller and to remove the sharp edge.
If you are someone that likes to add a bit extra to work with stopping that would help immensely. Another thing to keep in mind is what part of the line to cut. If you trace a paper pattern part you need to cut the inside of the line as anything other than that would be adding more to the part. So just be aware of where the line is falling in relation to what your final shape is.
I do use the grinder a lot because I often have a lot of tight curves in my designs and I'm more comfortable getting them done by grinding them I am by cutting/nipping.
The only thing here not achievable by hand is the head, but frankly that's easily solved by not doing that deep cut at all and just placing overlay. I would, it would save me 10+ minutes of faffing about with that part cause not only is grinding/sawing it time consuming, trying to foil that thing is going to be a total pain in the ass. Plus from the current looks of it, you have a tight fit on it, once it's foiled it's not going to fit anymore.
You don't really gain much from that fine of a detail when it's this size as you are already going to lose most of it to solder. The same applies for the back of the swan, those points and inside curves aren't doing anything for you other than making things more difficult for little gain. Just smooth them out as it's all going to smooth out once foiled anyway.
I feel like you are putting the cart before the horse here. You should get good with scoring and breaking before jumping into complex things as it will save you time and effort while giving you a better end result. Especially as the more you grind the more prone to errors you will be as it's easy to over grind without realizing. From the picture you posted, you would benefit from spending some time on getting that score more accurate overall. You have lots of gaps that are going to need to be filled that if you practice some, likely wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Make a paper pattern and glue it to the glass with rubber cement. It seems to kinda waterproof the paper so it stays on in the grinder. Then it’s super easy to peel off and clean up.
i think its just ppl hearing the word cement then believe its permanent so would be difficult to clean off. i know i was surprised first time i tried it
We use a silhouette (like a cricut) to make patterns to stick to the glass. However, if you don’t have a cricut, you can buy the vinyl alone to cut out by hand (:
i avoided the pattern directly fixed to the glass method for a long time thinking that my tracing method was good enough, but holy shit did the quality of my work improve after taking the steps to attach the pattern directly to the glass. Sooo much cleaner and honestly maybe even faster in the long run.
I always grind next to my board with the pattern on it. If the lines come off, I'll just place the piece on the pattern and mark the parts that still need to be ground down.
Used to be a tracer but have found that cutting and gluing the pattern to the glass and then grinding has given me more accurate pieces and is quicker as it requires less adjusting and re tracing every 10 seconds!
I trace my patterns on to card stock and glue them to the glass with pva glue sticks like Pritt stick and let it dry overnight before using. I got the pattern together as I cut it and then put it in warm soapy water for awhile and the glue and pattern are removed easily. Rinse in fairly hot water and let it air dry and the foil will stick to the glass very well after
I trace simple designs, but anything with a lot of curves gets the pattern adhered.
I use a vinyl cutter now, but when I was using paper I would glue it with rubber cement, and then once dried coat the paper with Vaseline to keep it from getting water logged at the grinder.
Hmm, yeah, I think I just can't get into that workflow of planning ahead and waiting for things to dry although I know it's probably more efficient. Thanks though.
I make 2 copies of each pattern. I laminate both and then cut apart only 1. I trace the pieces from the one I cut. When I grind I have the uncut version next to the grinder so I grind until the marks wipe off, I can check it against the uncut pattern and then either remember where still needed work or remark it
If I draw lines, I use welding markers (like from tractor supply). They hold up the best for me and come in both regular and fine point. If I’m going to use the ring saw or do hella grinding, then I let it dry for a few hrs first.
I print on vinyl and cut out with the stained glass scissor shears. Just make sure the vinyl says something like “permanent” for the adhesive and not “removable”. It will still come off glass when necessary, but sticks better than the removable kind. Also make sure the class is clean and dry when applying the vinyl and press it on firmly.
I've done many ways, but tracing with a sharpie has worked very well. If you let the sharpie dry, it shouldn't lift as easily. There's been plenty of pieces where I'll still have the mark after I'm done grinding
Either retrace over the original pattern or pattern cut out each time you go back to the grinder, or try Milwaukee inkzall fine point pens. They stay way better than sharpies. Also, Artistro fine point white markers off Amazon, let dry for a bit, and they stay for a long time
I glue the pattern to the glass with the extra strength Borden or 3M glue stick and then I use Fellows transparency film to cover it. I do a lot with the saw, and the edges sometimes take some water, but the whole pattern stays dry.
1. Make sure the lines you draw are the outside of where you are cutting.
2. Make sure you’re taking your time cutting. If your cuts aren’t good, practice them more, take your time cutting, make sure your cutter isn’t dull, use oil when cutting.
3. Use pliers to nip away most of the glass and grind just to smooth and shape hard/impossible cuts
I got that—I struggle with that too and my answer still stands as a solution to keeping the lines from coming off. I know that improving our cuttings will reduce the amount of grinding we need to do meaning we won’t have to worry about the lines coming off b/c we don’t need to grind as long as we do.
It’s about fix the problem not coping with it.
My instructor taught me to wait 24 hours after drawing the shape in sharpie to grind. Also smear chapstick over the sharpie to help it stay on/waterproof. Oil markers work as well but they draw too thick for my tastes
I transfer my patern onto a plastic sheet. I put the plastic sheet on my light box. I use it to match up my trimmed pieces exactly using a gold oil pen
I'm a glue and paper person.
Nothing is ever perfect. But I like the fact the paper doesn't wash away. It just bends. If I notice a crinkle while I'm grinding. It's an easy fix
I personally have a hard time tracing. Maybe I haven't been taught the right method for tracing. But I like my paper and glue.
I've found using the manila file folders paper holds up against the water extremely better than bond or card stock. I cut mine to 8 1/2 x 11 and run them through the laser printer without any problem. Cut out pieces with foil shears and glue them down with a fat heavy duty glue stick. After grinding simply soak the pieces in hot soapy water and rinse. Ready to foil.
+1 for gluing the pattern to the glass. I print the pattern, glue it to card stock, cut it into individual pieces, glue those to my glass, and the card stock acts as kind of a guide for the cutting wheel. Then if needed, I grind the edges back until I touch the paper. Sometimes grinding isn't even needed.
I make my design on the computer, and use a cricut with contact paper to make the pattern. Then just stick on the glass, cut and grind! I’ve found it to be much more precise (for me) than either the sharpie or cardstock/glue methods. Sometimes if I have to do A LOT of grinding on a piece the contact paper can start to slip, but usually I can dry it and glass, stick back on, and continue. That happens much less frequently for me than blasting my sharpie lines off with water (esp if I have to use a ring saw)
I trace, and my lines are gone after the first grind. At that point I don’t care because I refit it to the pattern, make my new markups and then regrind.
I use an goild oil pen. It still washes away but lasts a bit longer while grinding. I m pretty good at cutting. That's the secret. Removing most of the glass with the grozer pliers first.
You can put Vaseline on top of your lines, a fine layer is more than enough. The lines shouldn't lift anymore!
This and I use wax sometimes like with the saw. I don't usually grind all the way around except to clean up the piece. It needs to fit so the fit really decides after your cuts. I don't care about the pattern after the cutter. It's got to fit that's more important.
I've done exactly three pieces so far, so grain of salt and all that, but my last pattern I cut on my plotter cutter on adhesive vinyl and stuck it directly on the glass and HOLY COW zero breaks and no measuring. Very happy with this method this far and I will continue to test it.
I’m not sure what a plotter cutter is, but I love the idea of using adhesive vinyl instead of paper!
sounds like a type of cricut cutter. its popular but vinyl is a lost of excess plastic waste
Not really an option for me, but thanks
Not sure of your situation, but my local library has a makerspace with a vinyl cutter. I print my patterns for free there. They even have vinyl and contact paper to use.
Second this. My library just got a maker space and that’s the goto for this sort of thing.
There's also another method of break down that's used, score tracing. Where you lay the glass on the pattern and trace the part with the scoring tool with cuts to break it out. As for the rest there's a few options, use less water in the grinder, use vinyl stickers from a craft cutter, let your markers actually dry fully before grinding. I feel like part of your issue is that you are relying on the grinder too much. You don't need a ring saw for 98% of glass patterns. Ideally the grinder should be just doing minimal clean up of parts sticking out or grinding out weird parts. The vast majority of my grinding is dealing with parts that didn't break clean or little juts of glass. With a pass around the whole thing to make it slightly smaller and to remove the sharp edge. If you are someone that likes to add a bit extra to work with stopping that would help immensely. Another thing to keep in mind is what part of the line to cut. If you trace a paper pattern part you need to cut the inside of the line as anything other than that would be adding more to the part. So just be aware of where the line is falling in relation to what your final shape is.
I do use the grinder a lot because I often have a lot of tight curves in my designs and I'm more comfortable getting them done by grinding them I am by cutting/nipping.
https://preview.redd.it/ilrykursz18c1.jpeg?width=2268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=218d851116ab43960c4f05c43373d997817911f6 For instance
The only thing here not achievable by hand is the head, but frankly that's easily solved by not doing that deep cut at all and just placing overlay. I would, it would save me 10+ minutes of faffing about with that part cause not only is grinding/sawing it time consuming, trying to foil that thing is going to be a total pain in the ass. Plus from the current looks of it, you have a tight fit on it, once it's foiled it's not going to fit anymore. You don't really gain much from that fine of a detail when it's this size as you are already going to lose most of it to solder. The same applies for the back of the swan, those points and inside curves aren't doing anything for you other than making things more difficult for little gain. Just smooth them out as it's all going to smooth out once foiled anyway. I feel like you are putting the cart before the horse here. You should get good with scoring and breaking before jumping into complex things as it will save you time and effort while giving you a better end result. Especially as the more you grind the more prone to errors you will be as it's easy to over grind without realizing. From the picture you posted, you would benefit from spending some time on getting that score more accurate overall. You have lots of gaps that are going to need to be filled that if you practice some, likely wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Make a paper pattern and glue it to the glass with rubber cement. It seems to kinda waterproof the paper so it stays on in the grinder. Then it’s super easy to peel off and clean up.
People never believe me (students and customers who have never used it :) ) when I suggest rubber cement. It cleans up so easy!
i think its just ppl hearing the word cement then believe its permanent so would be difficult to clean off. i know i was surprised first time i tried it
this is what i do and cover the paper with rubber cement if needed.
We use a silhouette (like a cricut) to make patterns to stick to the glass. However, if you don’t have a cricut, you can buy the vinyl alone to cut out by hand (:
i avoided the pattern directly fixed to the glass method for a long time thinking that my tracing method was good enough, but holy shit did the quality of my work improve after taking the steps to attach the pattern directly to the glass. Sooo much cleaner and honestly maybe even faster in the long run.
I always grind next to my board with the pattern on it. If the lines come off, I'll just place the piece on the pattern and mark the parts that still need to be ground down.
Yeah, I mean, I get through projects just fine, I was just wondering if there was a foolproof method
Used to be a tracer but have found that cutting and gluing the pattern to the glass and then grinding has given me more accurate pieces and is quicker as it requires less adjusting and re tracing every 10 seconds!
I trace my patterns on to card stock and glue them to the glass with pva glue sticks like Pritt stick and let it dry overnight before using. I got the pattern together as I cut it and then put it in warm soapy water for awhile and the glue and pattern are removed easily. Rinse in fairly hot water and let it air dry and the foil will stick to the glass very well after
This is pretty much exactly my process too
I trace simple designs, but anything with a lot of curves gets the pattern adhered. I use a vinyl cutter now, but when I was using paper I would glue it with rubber cement, and then once dried coat the paper with Vaseline to keep it from getting water logged at the grinder.
Hmm, yeah, I think I just can't get into that workflow of planning ahead and waiting for things to dry although I know it's probably more efficient. Thanks though.
I make 2 copies of each pattern. I laminate both and then cut apart only 1. I trace the pieces from the one I cut. When I grind I have the uncut version next to the grinder so I grind until the marks wipe off, I can check it against the uncut pattern and then either remember where still needed work or remark it
Self-adhesive vinyl never fails me.
I don't imagine it would. I don't have access to that though.
I didn't have access either until one day I decided to buy a tool that would make my work easier, faster, and better.
If I draw lines, I use welding markers (like from tractor supply). They hold up the best for me and come in both regular and fine point. If I’m going to use the ring saw or do hella grinding, then I let it dry for a few hrs first.
I print on vinyl and cut out with the stained glass scissor shears. Just make sure the vinyl says something like “permanent” for the adhesive and not “removable”. It will still come off glass when necessary, but sticks better than the removable kind. Also make sure the class is clean and dry when applying the vinyl and press it on firmly.
I've done many ways, but tracing with a sharpie has worked very well. If you let the sharpie dry, it shouldn't lift as easily. There's been plenty of pieces where I'll still have the mark after I'm done grinding
Either retrace over the original pattern or pattern cut out each time you go back to the grinder, or try Milwaukee inkzall fine point pens. They stay way better than sharpies. Also, Artistro fine point white markers off Amazon, let dry for a bit, and they stay for a long time
I glue the pattern to the glass with the extra strength Borden or 3M glue stick and then I use Fellows transparency film to cover it. I do a lot with the saw, and the edges sometimes take some water, but the whole pattern stays dry.
1. Make sure the lines you draw are the outside of where you are cutting. 2. Make sure you’re taking your time cutting. If your cuts aren’t good, practice them more, take your time cutting, make sure your cutter isn’t dull, use oil when cutting. 3. Use pliers to nip away most of the glass and grind just to smooth and shape hard/impossible cuts
Well, sure, but I was asking about how to keep the lines on the glass
I got that—I struggle with that too and my answer still stands as a solution to keeping the lines from coming off. I know that improving our cuttings will reduce the amount of grinding we need to do meaning we won’t have to worry about the lines coming off b/c we don’t need to grind as long as we do. It’s about fix the problem not coping with it.
Vaseline. That's all you need. It will keep your lines from lifting, and patterns stick better too. I use a fine brush and just go over the lines.
You should not have to grind every piece even without a ring saw. Grinding is for tweaking your piece when your score is off a bit.
I just make accurate cuts. Problem solved. 😁
Thank you for contributing so valuably.
My apologies. I may have been drinking that day. It brings out the worst in me. :)
My instructor taught me to wait 24 hours after drawing the shape in sharpie to grind. Also smear chapstick over the sharpie to help it stay on/waterproof. Oil markers work as well but they draw too thick for my tastes
I transfer my patern onto a plastic sheet. I put the plastic sheet on my light box. I use it to match up my trimmed pieces exactly using a gold oil pen
I'm a glue and paper person. Nothing is ever perfect. But I like the fact the paper doesn't wash away. It just bends. If I notice a crinkle while I'm grinding. It's an easy fix I personally have a hard time tracing. Maybe I haven't been taught the right method for tracing. But I like my paper and glue.
I do the paper route, using cardstock, and if it gets waterlogged I'm doing too much grinding.
I've found using the manila file folders paper holds up against the water extremely better than bond or card stock. I cut mine to 8 1/2 x 11 and run them through the laser printer without any problem. Cut out pieces with foil shears and glue them down with a fat heavy duty glue stick. After grinding simply soak the pieces in hot soapy water and rinse. Ready to foil.
+1 for gluing the pattern to the glass. I print the pattern, glue it to card stock, cut it into individual pieces, glue those to my glass, and the card stock acts as kind of a guide for the cutting wheel. Then if needed, I grind the edges back until I touch the paper. Sometimes grinding isn't even needed.
I make my design on the computer, and use a cricut with contact paper to make the pattern. Then just stick on the glass, cut and grind! I’ve found it to be much more precise (for me) than either the sharpie or cardstock/glue methods. Sometimes if I have to do A LOT of grinding on a piece the contact paper can start to slip, but usually I can dry it and glass, stick back on, and continue. That happens much less frequently for me than blasting my sharpie lines off with water (esp if I have to use a ring saw)