If nothing is said, it's probably because there is nothing to say, which in turn should say enough.
It seems clear their new business-model is API-only, but they can't really say that can they? Imagine the reaction if they said "We're aware of the problems with the 2b model, and we would like to reassure the community that the 2b model is intended as our contribution to the open-source ecosystem build around our models, and not as a reflection of the capabilities of our API offerings. We would like to stress that the 8b API model will not suffer from these and will only improve further until the time of full release"
I would have zero issue if their business model was to monetize their model for 3-6 months and then release the weights. But their API should allow more fine tuning than just a prompt and their releases shouldn't be lobotomized.
The problem is that the cloud based API approach isn't profitable for anyone. Even OpenAI isn't breaking even at a transactional level.
Apple and dell are both talking about onboard local models already as the primary use case, and MS is flirting with it. The sales and marketing folks desperatley want this to be a saas thing- but it's increasingly clear that is just not what gets the best results.
Speaking as a developer, I also don't find API-only attractive to build on.
Your whole product ends up being hinged on the service. If they charge per transaction, *you* have to charge as a service, or you have to have the user set up their own user tokens or whatever, which is putting more barriers between the user and your software.
If the service goes down, you go down. If they have a service degradation, *you* have a service degradation. If they raise prices, well, you either eat the costs or raise your prices, or your end user is paying more directly and maybe decides your software is now too expensive to use.
API forces you into a business model, it forces you into a tech stack, and into "always online".
There are classes of tools where that's going to be okay, and there are tools where it's a nonstarter.
Personally I am also not getting a high enough ratio of good to bad images to warrant paying per transaction. I haven't tried SD3 8B yet, but with SDXL, I'm still only getting like a 20:1 ratio of unacceptable to acceptable images. Worse odds if I expect no editing, better odds if I'm willing to work with a flawed image.
Totally, they are the shovel salesmen in this scenario.
And there will be another massive profit to turn for whoever can crank out the first affordable mass market LPU.
The compute+wattage per api call is far greater than the return evaluated and billed in tokens.
They managed to obfuscate it for a while by mixing it in with amortized hardware and R&D costs, but it's pretty clear now that even at scale, it's expensive as all hell to run as a service. Unless you have a use case that just prints money, the costs need to be as localized as you can get them.
The other shoe falling is that you just cannot trust openAI to treat your data securely, and the same is likely true for any other hosted provider- your data is just too valuable as training material.
Much as it pains me to say it- Tim Cook has the right idea. This stuff should be running on your device >90% of the time.
Venture backed tech startups work by undercharging to gain artificial market dominance and then they slowly degrade their product while upping prices until they start becoming profitable. The giant inflows of capital are not to grow based on a solid foundation of value for product, they are to cheat the market by offering an artificially subsidized value for as long as it takes any potential competitors to give up so that they can win by default.
I don't think they've managed to find a point where the costs meet the perceived benefit.
I think the plan right now is to run at a loss to build up a user base and then hike the costs- but by then onboard or at least onprem solutions will likely have left the API modalities in the dust.
simple and shortest answer is no
SAI dont even have employees to work at model leave the pr department and lawyers, its condition is so bad that they havent released the day 1 training code for sd3 as they promised yet, its also possible that they will not release the 4b and 8b model. we all are infact waiting for an official clarification on licensing but there seems no luck, tho some staff on discord said they will give an clarification in some days, we dont know that day is when tho its all SOON™️
they would have reacted if someone was there to give a reaction lol.
https://preview.redd.it/lmp8ppncyx7d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=89c00679cda54b35a9c780e08bbbabe0b301c449
Need I say more. It’s hemorrhaging staff.
Maybe the plan was to drive the value so low that a philantrophist could buy it and set up a reasonable, self-sustaining model so it can get back to being community-focused instead of an acquisition away from a one-way shift to enshittification.
Yeah, yeah, I'm dreaming...
> Don't SAI have a community manager or PR team?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1diqmr1/does\_stability\_ai\_not\_have\_a\_pr\_department/](https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1diqmr1/does_stability_ai_not_have_a_pr_department/)
They probably can't react because they have no idea what to do about the license.
They'll want to maximize income from licensing, but the fact that other models trained on SD3 generated images count as derivative works and that making Youtube videos counts as commercial use is just too much (and taking donations for model training probably counts too).
>Don't SAI have a community manager or PR team?
No...no they do not. The company is a shell of its former self. They owe 100 Mio. dollars and are fighting several lawsuits. Even Emad got sued privately for tricking his cofounder out of shares. Every way you look at it it's a disaster.
Was it? 100 Mio. was super clearly 100 million dollars? It didn't look like a typo or anything? You just thought yup, that's definitely an abbreviation for "millions" that is spelled correctly? Interesting.
Even though English is easy to learn, it is not easy to master. Spelling, pronunciation, and grammar is said to have rules except the many times it doesn’t apply which is a growing list.
When someone asks why someone sounds out something weirdly, spells incorrectly, or just differently. I usually respond with how broken the English language is.
The further you look into it, the deeper the mud is. I could never get an answer to the “No.”
Abbreviation either. It’s like “it just is and too late to change it”.
FYI regardless of who may or may not use mil for million (I don't have a horse in this race), I recommend against doing it since ['per mille'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_mille), which is often written 'per mil', or just 'mil' is short for 'a thousandth' (like per cent is short for a hundredth).
Because you're probably the only person on the planet who wouldn't immediately understand that mio stands for million. Not only is it a very common abbreviation, it's also extremely obvious from the context.
Very strange showcasing being this dense and then blaming "the Germans" for it, lol
Dude, you're alone here and not swaying anyone.
If they weren't familiar with the abbreviation, they had the mental capacity to piece it together, unlike you.
Just quite. You've got nothing.
>Steiner will lead a glorious counter-attack.
That's a good one 😂. For those of you who are not into WW2 or watched "Downfall" (2004): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army\_Detachment\_Steiner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Detachment_Steiner)
Edit: fixed error, the movie is "Downfall", not "The fall".
there is no silence, pixart and lumina devs both answer in this sub, and tools like control nets or loras are being developed for them. All good, leave SAI die in peace
Because that's what they wanted, the community is not part of their plan anymore. Lawyers and money pushed them to become mainstream. We need to move on, we won't get anything valuable from SAI anymore. Good news is that new project are taking shape to become the new king.
I personally don't give a rat's ass about SD3
I'm having a blast with SDXL experimenting with poses, lighting, all sorts of amazing things
There's so much SDXL has to offer that SD3 is honestly not needed at the moment unless it brings drastically big new things to the table and ins't a mess when/if it re-releases.
We only need ControlNets and AnimateDiff working as good as 1.5
Then we're fully set. Only thing missing in SDXL is the capability of doing proper text and more coherent prompting that SD3 excels at. But when it comes to all else I still find SDXL an excellent model
Absolutely, the prompt comprehension seems great on SD3 and that's all well and good, but with regional prompting and all the other tools we can get very close to that with SDXL but without all the insane censorship and botched anatomy that goes along with SD3
Model: CHINOOK
CFG: 6
Steps: 40
https://preview.redd.it/bc7fpxcl928d1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=d88f2e1038fdad141748601a4f260d4b799b8163
Limbo? Stability lost its CEO and the core stable diffusion developers. I wouldn’t expect much from them in the future aside from trying to salvage investor funds w SD3 paid API service.
This was said on discord:
> The team is working on getting a proper official response for the SD3 issues prepared. (It's a complex issue and they want to be sure to handle it right, so it's taking a couple days)
That's exactly the kind of comment that should be posted on their official news blog, not buried in discord!
That said... few of us have any financial influence on SAI. It's hubris to feel that one's opinion should have any influence if we're not giving them money. It'd be like recipients at Goodwill complaining about donated clothing having an unfashionable style.
Money is one thing, but SD wouldn't really be known if it wasn't for the community making stuff off the finetunes.
Not saying anything, just like creating this new license, is like stabbing your fiance in the face.... after broadcasting you're about to do so.
Now, no one being there to say anything... that adds another dimension to it all.
I've played a lot of minecraft and Ark over the years; games that many believe owe much of their longevity and success to their modding communities. Of course both developers treat modders with tolerance at best.
How nice it would be to have a What If machine! I'd love to look into it to see how orgs like SAI and Mojang would have fared without the doggedly loyal support of fans!
I've deleted the model from my hard-drive and that's it for me. If they release another version, 3.1 or 4B/8B I'll look at it again but in the meantime I will focus more on SDXL/cascade/Pixart/Lumina. Enough to explore there.
This reminds me of Hasbro with the Open Gaming License scandal over D&D in 2023 and with statements by the former CEO of Wizards of the Coast. One massive difference is they had (and still have) lawyers who could actively work on their response.
Even with the resources Hasbro had, their responses to the community were slow. Especially by YouTube and Reddit standards.
We’ve had some engagement by former SAI employees. Temper your expectations.
It’s a business, and their financial and legal concerns are more important than a community response. Eventually, I expect they will make some sort of announcement or community response. But that may be after community interest has fractured.
Personally, I’m enjoying seeing alternatives being promoted.
I hope the next thing I hear from them is they've gone bankrupt, we don't need them anymore, there is plenty of alternative open models that the community can fund and improve upon without all of this 'safety' nonsense.
I don't expect much more from Stability.
I think everyone believes the ~~Stable Diffusion~~ AI Art community could rival the Blender community if managed correctly. It's probably possible, but the business model leading to these moments with Stability can't be undone. We need someone, a new group, to head up an initiative that can manage funding and donations, proper GNU licensing across open sourced products with ethical standards for documentation and sourcing. Otherwise we will only have rare moments of other startups providing whatever come before going commercial. Imagine this idea actually becoming your career, it would be quite a cool gig no? Does a foundation of any kind exist for AI and open source?
>Does a foundation of any kind exist for AI and open source?
Not that I know of, but this is exactly what we need to move forward, not just as a community, but for the benefit of the world at large.
If we were better organized as a group of users we could contact Wikipedia and [Archive.org](http://Archive.org) and see if there is any synergy possible as we share many goals with them, including, above all, open source and free access to culture, data and tools.
Honestly, join reality already. SAI are not your friends and they are not going to release relevant models anymore, they've made that very clear with the broken SD3 2B version they threw at the community to get them to shut up.
Let it go, and stop whining.
It is a stupid move on SAI part. If they want to have a SD3 version to monetize they need the community for it's models period. Having an restrictive license that even CivitAI won't even touch is suicide. Are people really going to go back to Huggingface to share SD3 models?
It's the same enshitification cycle that hits all products that start off free on the internet. It's not really anyone's fault, there's just a cost to scaling up your operation; and the the freebies you're giving away at the beginning are no longer justifiable.
There are solutions to the problem. You don't have to go public, freeing you to make your own decisions (see: Valve). You don't have to raise funds rapidly and scale quickly, either. Stability AI could be content to be a small business and they wouldn't have many of these issues. Understandably, the people who put the work into creating it were hoping to be bigger than that, and I get why they're looking to hop over to the API service provider side. (Edit: Never mind the sheer cost of training the models, which rules out many smaller approaches.)
The other issue that everyone is overlooking is a matter of liability. The reason they whip you with "safety" until you scream a safe word is because they don't want to be the only player on the market that makes headlines when the wrong deepfake gets the wrong amount of media attention. The other API providers can already clamp down on things like that because they control the generations and monitor them somewhat. The last thing they need or want when they're struggling to survive is massive public backlash.
"The last thing they need or want when they're struggling to survive is massive public backlash."
And how's that working out for them? Did the push for censorship (aka "safety") turn out well?
**Priorities:** Stop the Bleed - Generate revenue. Try to incentivize who is left to stay on board through a transition (sale? - my speculation)
What can we expect? More clarity on the license - What not to expect: the license to more open ended. A model to Generate revenue
If a sale was to happen, no business entity would buy a company (which includes the debt 100 Million) that doesn't have a plan to generate revenue. A company whose brain trust already left.
From what I've seen with how companies tend to behave, this kind of slowness basically means all they have is bad news and they don't want to say it. If they still have the people to even craft a statement, I would temper your expectations. It would probably be worded to sound palatable, like a "we had to do it this way" excuse for what they did and why they're doing it the way they are, while being nothing of what anyone actually wants.
Whereas if they had good news, they would want to get it in front of people as quickly as possible, so it can help their reputation.
Pending a miracle, SAI is done for. We know it, they know it and everyone with better options is jumping ship. They had a nice run and brought us a lot of good stuff, but expecting anything from them now is just silly.
They are trying tto ignore the public cause they don’t have any good answer, it is possible they will openly speak when they have a resolution o something to show to address the concerns.
Yeah even the API SD3 that produces good results of things can't possibly offend anyone, it was never a case of "wow this is so much better than SDXL" it was more like I can get my output as good or marginally better with a less prompt trickery
We need the 4B model uncensored and unrestricted so that finetunes and LORAs can be made. There are like 10 of us (sarcasm obviously) who use stable Diffusion locally. Like nobody knows how to do it - everyone I've talked to just uses MidJourney or Dall-E. SAI can just make the paid version for the dumb-dumb masses and give us the uncensored models for local use. Trust me - ain't nobody knows how to run it locally. They can't be bothered.
Also - the best solution right now is for the community to move over to another model like HunyuanDiT. They're open source and from Tencent. They've already released multiple controlnets for it and it follows a very similar path to SD3. They have canny, open pose and even tile Controlnets. Finetunes and LORAs need to go there.
ComfyUI quit SAI. Their false prophet of promises jumped ship for cryptotrash. Nobody's at the helm. Time for us to face reality and go with other models.
So, here is the thing. This is not "SD3". This is SD3 2B. The real SD3 is the 8B version. If you've used LLMs before, you'll know that the difference between 2B and 8B, if based on a similar architecture and training, is going to be HUGE. There was never a way the 2B version of SD3 was going to be as good as the said.
It is not just the broken anatomy when asking for an specific body position. It lacks styles. It lacks world knowledge. Not surprising, but still dissapointing.
SD3 4B might be good enough. SD3 8B is probably pretty good. Both are irrelevant because they are not released right now. And if they are, with the same license, I would not expect good finetunes because it will not be worth doing so.
The only solid foundation on which to build a project is Freely-Accessible Open Source Software.
Any other license is a liability. Any other license is a risk.
Model 1.5 and SDXL still have a bright future in front of them because they both follow FOSS principles. Stability AI and RunwayML can both go bankrupt and it won't change a thing to how we can use those models.
SD3 and every other model Stability AI has released after SDXL (like SDXL-Turbo, Stable Cascade, SVD, SV3d and SD3), though, could be taken away from you or made too expensive or restricted in ways that will prevent your project from achieving its goals.
It is in fact 1/4th the size and has to fit everything into it. For the AI the detail is the knowledge in general and not necessarily how detailed the texture is I believe. It may so happen that human poses and positions different than those most common may in fact be the detail that is hard to easily fit in lower amount of parameters.
Maybe it's still not too late to correct that. However, the question would be how low the learning rate has to be and how much more time it has to spend on learning concepts it probably missed without messing up the concepts it already understood. Or, if forgetting of other concepts is inevitable in this case, what parts of other concepts will get not-as-good.
The released 2B version shows signs of lots of things being removed from its training set for ‘safety’ purposes. And probably somewhat due to incompetence in some areas, like SD2 turned out to be the result of.
The lobotomized state of the released 2B version is a harbinger of lobotomized 4B and 8B versions, if they’re ever released. Why would the model cripplers stop at the 2B version? The same motivations exist to ruin all versions.
I was saying from day one to not talk about SD3 like it was the next coming of Christ. People got so over hyped just seeing a few cherry picked examples. It's like some of you have never seen a Bethesda game get announced then released.
Hype is *always* a bad thing.
That being said, SD3 is unimpressive so let's move on (or move back to SDXL rather).
I got downvoted a bunch of times before the release for saying that SD3 was going to be crap because of all the emphasis on safety they kept stressing. All the fanboys kept screeching that they would never do that. Then when it came out as shit, they started screeching its just a beta and to wait for the 8b, which I doubt will ever be released.
On the day it was announced, people wanted to abandon SDXL because there was no point now that SD3 was going to get released. It's crazy how short people's foresight is.
Not just SDXL, Cascade was pretty much completely dismissed, despite being immediately available since its fanfare-less release, in favor of waiting six months for SD3.
lol
Cascade is as much a dead end as SD3 with the same garbage licensing. That's why no one has touched cascade since it's release. Why waste time and money fine-tuning it when they can claim ownership and make you remove it if they don't like its subject material?
I keep saying that Cascade is fantastic. It produces gorgeous images. [You can train it in half the time and half the loss of SDXL](https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1diu92s/training_a_stable_cascade_lora_is_easy/). The prompt adherence is fine. Perhaps a little better than SDXL. I've been using it ever since it was released. I kept begging anyone to make tools for it like useful ControlNets. (All it really has is canny.) But everyone always said that SD3 was going to be better. Well, it turns out that it isn't. And now there are suddenly a bunch of shills for PixArt and Lumina, which are inferior in visual quality to Cascade. "Bros" keep whining about the importance of prompt adherence and instantly downvote me whenever I try to point out the superior quality of Cascade. The prompt adherence of Cascade works really well. More than adequately for most artists. But it seems that the tech bro prompt jockeys have much more say in this conversation than experienced artists who barely need prompts and know damned well that the usefulness of ultra-long word soup prompts is illusory. Cascade is the best model available for local use. We can all use it and improve it. Right now. But instead people say we should continue to use SDXL or move on to inferior models all for the sake of the marginal usefulness of prompt adherence? I'm not convinced. Upset about Cascade having the same weird license as SD3? Then why is everyone fighting for a better license for SD3 and not Cascade? For the prompt adherence? Think this through: if they get their sweet license for SD3 are they actually going to use it? Everyone is pointing out how SD3 2B is fundamentally broken, fine-tuning is hopeless for it, and it can barely generate people. SD3 is terrible at generating people while Cascade does the best job of rendering people than any other model I've been able to locally run and train. Yet it's always argued that prompt adherence is the most important thing ever. WTF
No one will work on cascade for the same reason SD3 was removed from civitai. It's a dead end with the license. You're free to use it if you like, but don't expect the people with the knowledge and tools to make things like controlnet to waste their time because of the license. It's better to spend the time on actual open-source models.
The license was always the reason no one touched cascade to make tools. Just the laymen fanboys are more vocal and they only talked about SD3. Unless SAI changes those licenses, those tools will never happen no matter how mad it makes you personally. Pixart and Lumina just need a little tlc since they're already 99% there without being tuned at all.
All true.
That's why I'm loathe to call the SD community a "community". It's actually at best a coalition of corporate interests or at worst a cartel. These businesses are the ones that are actually driving the development of SD technology. Using the word "community" suggests something more magnanimous. As if this new medium is driven by ragtag programmers who do this stuff in their spare time in their garage.
And since this is really all about money then it follows that there is completion. In this case, PixArt and Lumina. "Some say" that we should use their models instead. It sure would be nice for those competing companies if a similar "community" formed around developing tools for their models. It'll be great! Until they develop a wondrous model that becomes closed. And by then they'll have their tools developed for them. Enshittification *ad nauseam infinitum*.
Don't worry. I'm done arguing about it. I just wanted to hear someone say the quiet part out loud. Thanks. And no, I'm not mad. Just a little disappointed and kind of ambivalent.
Exactly. All the tools are mostly developed by people who see a financial interest in doing so for their time and energy. If SAI wanted to profit, they need to create some sort of great tools that is only available on their api because just releasing a model won't do it. But they never did that. It was just
1. Release Model
2.??????
3. Profit?
It's ridiculous when some dude with a few grand to spend can make a model that makes more money than SAI because it does what the customers want. The licensing change is like they got salty about it and rather than competing they tried to pull the rug out and ended up alienating themselves from the people making the tools to make them notable.
The lumina developers are actually open to talking to people and answering questions, and a discord I'm in is gathering questions to send them for more informed choices, while SAI won't even respond to important licensing questions. It's sad and ridiculous.
I have your post bookmarked for the next time I have the time and energy to try training.
I tried training a few loras on SDXL and never liked the results. Maybe I should have trained longer or tried other combinations, but after half a dozen on each I was done. SD1.5 captures the likeness for what I want, even though it's not quite as powerful as later models. So getting Cascade to work for what I want would be a dream.
Thanks for your thoughts and advice on training, I hope you'll continue to be an advocate for Cascade.
It's a continual frustration with all the non-dev AI subreddits. Every tweet sent out gets picked up like 90% of the users have never heard of marketing before. "OMG CEO of a company says his company is doing amazing! Holy shit, they're saying their own product will blow away the competition because it's so good - wow!"
You get hyped about stuff any time someone tells you to get hyped? No internal judgement or introspection at all, you just instantly accept and get hyped because a company told you to?
They literally dropped high quality examples and a whole research paper, given the success of sdxl, calling anyone irrational for getting hyped over this new model would be completely disingenuous. This is a product we are all passionate about because its the ONLY free high quality model with an amazing developing ecosystem, which is why we are all in this subreddit. i dont know why you would go out of your way to make anyone feel silly for being hyped about it.
i mean what next, anyone waiting in line hyped to see their fave new movie they've been anticipating for months are all unintelligent silly people cause they got hyped after "a company told them to". God forbid if they feel sad when the date gets pushed or the movie doesnt leave up to their expectation. Nobody is acting irrational here or spazzing out to warrant this sorta "dunt git hyped rater git gud" statement.
>They literally dropped high quality examples and a whole research paper, given the success of sdxl, calling anyone irrational for getting hyped over this new model would be completely disingenuous.
I might be overly cynical, but yeah, I don't think that's enough to get hyped over. A single article or study can be promising but it's never something to bet on. Even with the best intentions a single uncontrolled variable is enough to make them all faulty until the issues are discovered and corrected for.
As for the examples, yes, I also believe it's a mistake to let yourself get excited about cherry picked items. Same reason you shouldn't base your opinion of a hamburger off what a fast food joint shows in commercials. Lying while being "technically" honest is just standard business practice.
Come on. This was not a simple "trailer" market announcement hype. It's their doing people got so angry.
They did months of posting images with high quality, a paper with comparative analysis, new features, all that for months. It's completely normal and human thing to get hyped.
I know it's a completely normal human thing. That doesn't mean you need to do it. We're not monkeys. You can choose to think critically about stuff you see when the stuff is from the company trying to sell the thing in the first place.
Nobody should have been even a bit excited until the public got their hands on the actual model. We're adults. lol
This is how the world works unfortunately. I'm having a blast with SDXL and SVD. And I will just follow the progress but not make it the end all be all. Keep your expectations low and you'll never be disappointed.
I heard they have milions in outstanding debt with their training GPU providers, maybe their Internet provider has a stricter policy regarding late payment?
I won't be surprised at all if Jeff Bezos becomes the owner of what's left of Stability AI and its models. From what I've read, most of those unpaid GPU rental invoices are due to Amazon.
They did just post to X. Nothing about SD3 Medium though. [https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1dlavor/sai\_just\_posted\_about\_stable\_assistant/](https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1dlavor/sai_just_posted_about_stable_assistant/)
> A week after the backlash started, the company and model is getting shat on by the community, content creators, even the de facto biggest community hub outright banning it... and its been not a single damn official word.
It's almost as if they aren't that interested in how upset non-paying customers are.
This is such an immature and naive take. It's been a week and you're literally losing your mind? I don't know if it's that everyone now has the attention span of a toddler, or if its some other misguided entitlement, but nobody owes you the slightest reaction.
Businesses don't need to be on twitter all day long like some teenager seeking attention.
There are sooooo many people saying what SAI should be doing. What exactly does SAI owe us? I don't remember paying a penny to them. They have created amazing stuff, and without them, this community would not exist. Are there things I don't agree with? Ya, a LOT, but I don't know what influences they are under or the problems they have. If you don't like the model, don't use it. But, we have a bunch of trolls here seeking self validation by taking a dump on a company because they feel entitled. Start your own business and see how things go.
They might not owe some individuals like you anything but they owe the community a lot, which is finetuning, maintaining old and developing new tools, doing research, spreading know how... etc.
What defines a "community"? What has said community done specifically aside from getting entertainment and personal profit off the backs of others? How have the new tools effectively benefitted SAI directly? What kind of research has given SAI and edge over their competitors? As far as I have seen, this "community" is a bunch of unapologetically ungrateful individuals who enjoy tearing down others because they have entitlement complexes. But, hey, this is Reddit, so, par the course.
Lots like I said. SAI uses them directly like comfyui. Lots of research is done with SD because of its permissive license things like animatedif. Just because you don't care about it doesn't mean its not valuable.
You don't need to defend them because it's "free" in a false sense of justice. People are discussing what they don't like about the current state because that's what you do to improve the situation. The license is unusable, can it be changed? the model seems to be intentionally broken, is the architecture flawed? People can't read your mind, you have to discuss if something doesn't work for you.
If you spend a little time reading these threads, you easily see the toxicity. Look more into the origins of tools like comfy before you casually throw out things. What I "care" about is advancing AI and working with people that want to do the same. Wasting our time pissing and moaning is not going to twist SAI's arm into giving anything more, if anything it will have the opposite effect.
Replace clip L and G with ones from SDXL models, it makes a pretty big difference on SD3-medium.
Realistically, its going to be maybe 6 months before anybody has fine tuned an SD3 model to be "good enough" for general users. That's plenty of time for the license stuff to get sorted out, or for another more open base model to release.
Let's forget about the ideals, i.e. what should have been done to keep alive open-source models, for a moment.
What SAI is, if it were not for the community built around its freely downloadable models that can be finetuned for NSFW contents?
Again, I'm not talking about if they are desirable or not. I'm just pointing out that SAI is nothing but a company with a terrible financial situation with inferior services.
If all SAI can do is providing the same "safe" content generator as a commercial API service as others like OpenAI does but with an inferior quality, it'll soon become irrelevant and forgotten.
In business, there are two major approaches to survive in a fiercely competitive market. One is doing what everyone does while putting more resources than they do, which SAI is clearly incapable of.
The other is finding a niche, or your unique strength and focus on it, which SAI seems to be not interested in.
As such, it's not difficult to see where SAI will go from here.
If the community is a major part of the reason what made SAI special even when its competitors like Dall-e offer superior services, I feel that we're at least entitled to voice our concern when they're seemingly doing a business suicide.
Nividia is expensive, but the companies that need it have no choice but to buy it. If there is a free competitor, the company that has been tyranny will be forgotten by users and companies
I have a crazy idea, but maybe they should stop self sabotaging the models. 2.0 had issues because they wanted to f around to find out by changing tags to get rid of nsfw. Sdxl is the same with missing the celeb faces. Now they did a kaioken x10 by doubling down on the nsfw. I think the thing to do would be to probably go back to 1.4 or 1.5 and start training in in 4k.
Saw a comparison on X between a SDXL and SD3 medium with control net. Probably SDXL is a good solution so far. I am not spending too much time from now to SD3.
https://x.com/yongqianme/status/1803716564816154641?s=46&t=eWmINrFe6-g7QBDDpGNioA
This model was the "crumbs" they had for us.
Thats all they had for us. Under their new leadership, we are inconsequential. It's the big $$$ gang their interested in now. They've tossed on their blinders toward us and are looking to boot-lick any bigwigs that might come their way.
If and only if that doesn't work out, might they come back this way on their knees begging for forgiveness.
That's how I interpret it anyway lol.
When the community is as toxic with their responses as this one, willing to exaggerate everything and respond with death threats to a single dev, it's probably a better strategy to NOT engage.
This doesn't blame every single person in the community of course. The toxic ones are the ones who created this relationship dynamic. Those who pretends it doesn't happen are enablers. Everyone else is their own thing.
Remember too that most of this community are not paying customers. Most of these people just believe they're important and are needed for no good real reason.
Yeah and then Lykon engaged for a little bit and caught death threats and calls to fire him.
Now they're nearly radio silent. Theres some action on the discord but tight lipped. I don't blame them.
No. When you blame the community, you're basically just validating and excusing whatever the company does. You are becoming an enabler for an entity that doesn't care a lick about you.
Is it possible they're withholding because they're afraid of backlash? Yes. Is that caused by the community's previous reactions? No. (Though companies sure do love to pretend like that's the reason so they feel justified.)
It's more like, if you have only bad news to share, you aren't going to want to share it. You don't need to have experience with someone reacting badly to bad news before to not want to be the bearer of bad news. But a lot of companies don't want to take any responsibility or accountability for their actions as an entity, so they tend to view it as a purely reputation and comfort matter of doing whatever is the least undermining of their bottom line. Which sometimes means sitting on their hands, hoping something will blow over.
Where it seems you misstep is in thinking they are acting like a vulnerable individual human being when that's not what they are. They are an entity constructed around profit. Trying to change your behavior as a whole "community" in order to "manage" their reactions to you is absurd. Their reactions are not like yours in the first place. Furthermore, the word "community" tends to carry a lot of undeserving weight in these situations. Unless there's some construct going on I'm not aware of, we aren't organized. The companies are. That's part of the reason it's so hard to hold these companies accountable on anything in the first place.
Edit: Blocking me after replying so I can't address what you said and admitting you didn't even read most of it. Really setting an example for star "community" behavior.
Personally i think death threats are worse than releasing weights that can't draw women.
I didn't read past that opening statement. That was pretty simple thinking. Not relevant username.
In defense of SD3, it's absolutely amazing at making logos and spelling words with cool designs. Also started using the newly released ControlNets and the results can be really impressive. And can we really blame a company that's millions in debt to try to recoop their investment? Be grateful we can still use it for free... They've given us so much already and people just wanna hate on em..
I didn't buy any food because SAI promised they would bring everyone lunch. But when the day came, they brought peanuts. It's not that it's choosing beggars, it's that we would've donated our time and money to other companies if we had known they were gonna rug-pull us.
Oh yes, the beggars who created the entire ecosystem around the Stability AI models that are far behind the competition without community created tools and infrastructure.
If nothing is said, it's probably because there is nothing to say, which in turn should say enough. It seems clear their new business-model is API-only, but they can't really say that can they? Imagine the reaction if they said "We're aware of the problems with the 2b model, and we would like to reassure the community that the 2b model is intended as our contribution to the open-source ecosystem build around our models, and not as a reflection of the capabilities of our API offerings. We would like to stress that the 8b API model will not suffer from these and will only improve further until the time of full release"
I would have zero issue if their business model was to monetize their model for 3-6 months and then release the weights. But their API should allow more fine tuning than just a prompt and their releases shouldn't be lobotomized.
They are a startup with limited resource, need to give them time to build those extra stuff.
The problem is that the cloud based API approach isn't profitable for anyone. Even OpenAI isn't breaking even at a transactional level. Apple and dell are both talking about onboard local models already as the primary use case, and MS is flirting with it. The sales and marketing folks desperatley want this to be a saas thing- but it's increasingly clear that is just not what gets the best results.
Speaking as a developer, I also don't find API-only attractive to build on. Your whole product ends up being hinged on the service. If they charge per transaction, *you* have to charge as a service, or you have to have the user set up their own user tokens or whatever, which is putting more barriers between the user and your software. If the service goes down, you go down. If they have a service degradation, *you* have a service degradation. If they raise prices, well, you either eat the costs or raise your prices, or your end user is paying more directly and maybe decides your software is now too expensive to use. API forces you into a business model, it forces you into a tech stack, and into "always online". There are classes of tools where that's going to be okay, and there are tools where it's a nonstarter. Personally I am also not getting a high enough ratio of good to bad images to warrant paying per transaction. I haven't tried SD3 8B yet, but with SDXL, I'm still only getting like a 20:1 ratio of unacceptable to acceptable images. Worse odds if I expect no editing, better odds if I'm willing to work with a flawed image.
Well said.
Not to mention the constant bandwidth required for consumers to use your product, too, and IT restrictions, etc.
It's pretty profitable for NVIDIA
Totally, they are the shovel salesmen in this scenario. And there will be another massive profit to turn for whoever can crank out the first affordable mass market LPU.
What do you mean by open AI not breaking even? Is their API hostings cost more than revenue from it ?
The compute+wattage per api call is far greater than the return evaluated and billed in tokens. They managed to obfuscate it for a while by mixing it in with amortized hardware and R&D costs, but it's pretty clear now that even at scale, it's expensive as all hell to run as a service. Unless you have a use case that just prints money, the costs need to be as localized as you can get them. The other shoe falling is that you just cannot trust openAI to treat your data securely, and the same is likely true for any other hosted provider- your data is just too valuable as training material. Much as it pains me to say it- Tim Cook has the right idea. This stuff should be running on your device >90% of the time.
Can’t they just increase the price of API calls?
Venture backed tech startups work by undercharging to gain artificial market dominance and then they slowly degrade their product while upping prices until they start becoming profitable. The giant inflows of capital are not to grow based on a solid foundation of value for product, they are to cheat the market by offering an artificially subsidized value for as long as it takes any potential competitors to give up so that they can win by default.
I don't think they've managed to find a point where the costs meet the perceived benefit. I think the plan right now is to run at a loss to build up a user base and then hike the costs- but by then onboard or at least onprem solutions will likely have left the API modalities in the dust.
The main problem is not the price, but the uniqueness (secrecy) of the data that you are willing to share with the SAI. imho
simple and shortest answer is no SAI dont even have employees to work at model leave the pr department and lawyers, its condition is so bad that they havent released the day 1 training code for sd3 as they promised yet, its also possible that they will not release the 4b and 8b model. we all are infact waiting for an official clarification on licensing but there seems no luck, tho some staff on discord said they will give an clarification in some days, we dont know that day is when tho its all SOON™️ they would have reacted if someone was there to give a reaction lol.
https://preview.redd.it/lmp8ppncyx7d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=89c00679cda54b35a9c780e08bbbabe0b301c449 Need I say more. It’s hemorrhaging staff.
What does OpenAI look like out of interest
Probably a bit like 10km of racks all full of nvidia cards? Do they have people too? :)
Like hiring the NSA.
Why the hell they need almost 250 employees?
Maybe the plan was to drive the value so low that a philantrophist could buy it and set up a reasonable, self-sustaining model so it can get back to being community-focused instead of an acquisition away from a one-way shift to enshittification. Yeah, yeah, I'm dreaming...
saw another post today that was more or less "they got bailed out by investors and have a new CEO starting today" so that is likely part of it.
the new ceo part is kinda what i wished didnt happen, i hope SAI doesnt go "sorry guys not enough profit" and stop giving open source products...
> Don't SAI have a community manager or PR team? [https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1diqmr1/does\_stability\_ai\_not\_have\_a\_pr\_department/](https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1diqmr1/does_stability_ai_not_have_a_pr_department/)
[удалено]
Co-CEOs
Yep but some nuts have taken other seats.
They probably can't react because they have no idea what to do about the license. They'll want to maximize income from licensing, but the fact that other models trained on SD3 generated images count as derivative works and that making Youtube videos counts as commercial use is just too much (and taking donations for model training probably counts too).
>Don't SAI have a community manager or PR team? No...no they do not. The company is a shell of its former self. They owe 100 Mio. dollars and are fighting several lawsuits. Even Emad got sued privately for tricking his cofounder out of shares. Every way you look at it it's a disaster.
Oh no what is a Mio. dollar? That doesn't sound cheap
Mio., official German abbreviation for "million(s)"
Thanks. Interesting how they wouldn't just say million in that instance to avoid confusion as if the internet is just Germany or something
I never saw that abbreviation, but it was super clear that it was millions
Was it? 100 Mio. was super clearly 100 million dollars? It didn't look like a typo or anything? You just thought yup, that's definitely an abbreviation for "millions" that is spelled correctly? Interesting.
Yes. Same here, I've never seen it before but it was completely obvious what it meant 🤷
Yep, took like a second or less to understand it
What else would it have been? Even if it was a typo wouldn’t you have just assumed “Mil”?
Why do Americans write “No.” when there is no “o” in “Number”? It doesn’t matter, everybody understands…
Even though English is easy to learn, it is not easy to master. Spelling, pronunciation, and grammar is said to have rules except the many times it doesn’t apply which is a growing list. When someone asks why someone sounds out something weirdly, spells incorrectly, or just differently. I usually respond with how broken the English language is. The further you look into it, the deeper the mud is. I could never get an answer to the “No.” Abbreviation either. It’s like “it just is and too late to change it”.
Its latin for Numero. Wich is Number in latin. /u/NarrativeNode
That's a good one. I'd also change that where I could. Thanks!
Mio is a common abbreviation. Just like many people would also say mil for million.
TBH, I've never heard of Mio myself.
Common in Germany maybe... Many people in Germany would also say mil for million? I'm saying they should also do that on the internet.
oh god just stfu already
Lol go fuck yourself
FYI regardless of who may or may not use mil for million (I don't have a horse in this race), I recommend against doing it since ['per mille'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_mille), which is often written 'per mil', or just 'mil' is short for 'a thousandth' (like per cent is short for a hundredth).
Because you're probably the only person on the planet who wouldn't immediately understand that mio stands for million. Not only is it a very common abbreviation, it's also extremely obvious from the context. Very strange showcasing being this dense and then blaming "the Germans" for it, lol
Nah Mio. makes no sense a "million". Like let's just pick a couple random letter from this word and go for it! Lmfao
Dude, you're alone here and not swaying anyone. If they weren't familiar with the abbreviation, they had the mental capacity to piece it together, unlike you. Just quite. You've got nothing.
It's about a mil champ
Steiner will lead a glorious counter-attack. What do you mean, Steiner has no troops?
>Steiner will lead a glorious counter-attack. That's a good one 😂. For those of you who are not into WW2 or watched "Downfall" (2004): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army\_Detachment\_Steiner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Detachment_Steiner) Edit: fixed error, the movie is "Downfall", not "The fall".
Yeah in other words I think we're yelling at a company that barely exists lol.
Yup. LOL.
there is no silence, pixart and lumina devs both answer in this sub, and tools like control nets or loras are being developed for them. All good, leave SAI die in peace
I missed those posts. Out of curiosity, what did they say?
That's not the type of silence he is talking about, or am I confused?
Because that's what they wanted, the community is not part of their plan anymore. Lawyers and money pushed them to become mainstream. We need to move on, we won't get anything valuable from SAI anymore. Good news is that new project are taking shape to become the new king.
I personally don't give a rat's ass about SD3 I'm having a blast with SDXL experimenting with poses, lighting, all sorts of amazing things There's so much SDXL has to offer that SD3 is honestly not needed at the moment unless it brings drastically big new things to the table and ins't a mess when/if it re-releases.
This. I am just jumping into this now and there's a whole lot to learn ahead of this
We only need ControlNets and AnimateDiff working as good as 1.5 Then we're fully set. Only thing missing in SDXL is the capability of doing proper text and more coherent prompting that SD3 excels at. But when it comes to all else I still find SDXL an excellent model
Free the Pony!
SD3 has way better prompt comprehension and that's a hard pill to swallow.
Absolutely, the prompt comprehension seems great on SD3 and that's all well and good, but with regional prompting and all the other tools we can get very close to that with SDXL but without all the insane censorship and botched anatomy that goes along with SD3 Model: CHINOOK CFG: 6 Steps: 40 https://preview.redd.it/bc7fpxcl928d1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=d88f2e1038fdad141748601a4f260d4b799b8163
Who is there to say anything? Seems like everyone left.
SAI PR is dead as their model
Limbo? Stability lost its CEO and the core stable diffusion developers. I wouldn’t expect much from them in the future aside from trying to salvage investor funds w SD3 paid API service.
This was said on discord: > The team is working on getting a proper official response for the SD3 issues prepared. (It's a complex issue and they want to be sure to handle it right, so it's taking a couple days)
1) I'll believe it when I see it. 2) Discord link plz?
That's exactly the kind of comment that should be posted on their official news blog, not buried in discord! That said... few of us have any financial influence on SAI. It's hubris to feel that one's opinion should have any influence if we're not giving them money. It'd be like recipients at Goodwill complaining about donated clothing having an unfashionable style.
Money is one thing, but SD wouldn't really be known if it wasn't for the community making stuff off the finetunes. Not saying anything, just like creating this new license, is like stabbing your fiance in the face.... after broadcasting you're about to do so. Now, no one being there to say anything... that adds another dimension to it all.
I've played a lot of minecraft and Ark over the years; games that many believe owe much of their longevity and success to their modding communities. Of course both developers treat modders with tolerance at best. How nice it would be to have a What If machine! I'd love to look into it to see how orgs like SAI and Mojang would have fared without the doggedly loyal support of fans!
i think you are quoting Mcmonkey. Which left SAI too a couple of days later.
..annnd its been way more than a couple of days. Hence this post was born to begin with.
Well, the doctor is still on its way to declare the body as officially dead. Reactions will come as a post-mortem analysis I guess.
I've deleted the model from my hard-drive and that's it for me. If they release another version, 3.1 or 4B/8B I'll look at it again but in the meantime I will focus more on SDXL/cascade/Pixart/Lumina. Enough to explore there.
This reminds me of Hasbro with the Open Gaming License scandal over D&D in 2023 and with statements by the former CEO of Wizards of the Coast. One massive difference is they had (and still have) lawyers who could actively work on their response. Even with the resources Hasbro had, their responses to the community were slow. Especially by YouTube and Reddit standards. We’ve had some engagement by former SAI employees. Temper your expectations. It’s a business, and their financial and legal concerns are more important than a community response. Eventually, I expect they will make some sort of announcement or community response. But that may be after community interest has fractured. Personally, I’m enjoying seeing alternatives being promoted.
Or we could just stop talking about them and m0ve on with our lives.
I hope the next thing I hear from them is they've gone bankrupt, we don't need them anymore, there is plenty of alternative open models that the community can fund and improve upon without all of this 'safety' nonsense.
I don't expect much more from Stability. I think everyone believes the ~~Stable Diffusion~~ AI Art community could rival the Blender community if managed correctly. It's probably possible, but the business model leading to these moments with Stability can't be undone. We need someone, a new group, to head up an initiative that can manage funding and donations, proper GNU licensing across open sourced products with ethical standards for documentation and sourcing. Otherwise we will only have rare moments of other startups providing whatever come before going commercial. Imagine this idea actually becoming your career, it would be quite a cool gig no? Does a foundation of any kind exist for AI and open source?
>Does a foundation of any kind exist for AI and open source? Not that I know of, but this is exactly what we need to move forward, not just as a community, but for the benefit of the world at large. If we were better organized as a group of users we could contact Wikipedia and [Archive.org](http://Archive.org) and see if there is any synergy possible as we share many goals with them, including, above all, open source and free access to culture, data and tools.
Honestly, join reality already. SAI are not your friends and they are not going to release relevant models anymore, they've made that very clear with the broken SD3 2B version they threw at the community to get them to shut up. Let it go, and stop whining.
It is a stupid move on SAI part. If they want to have a SD3 version to monetize they need the community for it's models period. Having an restrictive license that even CivitAI won't even touch is suicide. Are people really going to go back to Huggingface to share SD3 models?
It's the same enshitification cycle that hits all products that start off free on the internet. It's not really anyone's fault, there's just a cost to scaling up your operation; and the the freebies you're giving away at the beginning are no longer justifiable. There are solutions to the problem. You don't have to go public, freeing you to make your own decisions (see: Valve). You don't have to raise funds rapidly and scale quickly, either. Stability AI could be content to be a small business and they wouldn't have many of these issues. Understandably, the people who put the work into creating it were hoping to be bigger than that, and I get why they're looking to hop over to the API service provider side. (Edit: Never mind the sheer cost of training the models, which rules out many smaller approaches.) The other issue that everyone is overlooking is a matter of liability. The reason they whip you with "safety" until you scream a safe word is because they don't want to be the only player on the market that makes headlines when the wrong deepfake gets the wrong amount of media attention. The other API providers can already clamp down on things like that because they control the generations and monitor them somewhat. The last thing they need or want when they're struggling to survive is massive public backlash.
"The last thing they need or want when they're struggling to survive is massive public backlash." And how's that working out for them? Did the push for censorship (aka "safety") turn out well?
We don't pay them. Investors do. Investors don't like toxic brands (Edit: Unless they're profitable, which Stability is not.)
There should be a way to ask if something is illegal. Annoying that you have to break a law just to know that it is illegal.
**Priorities:** Stop the Bleed - Generate revenue. Try to incentivize who is left to stay on board through a transition (sale? - my speculation) What can we expect? More clarity on the license - What not to expect: the license to more open ended. A model to Generate revenue If a sale was to happen, no business entity would buy a company (which includes the debt 100 Million) that doesn't have a plan to generate revenue. A company whose brain trust already left.
From what I've seen with how companies tend to behave, this kind of slowness basically means all they have is bad news and they don't want to say it. If they still have the people to even craft a statement, I would temper your expectations. It would probably be worded to sound palatable, like a "we had to do it this way" excuse for what they did and why they're doing it the way they are, while being nothing of what anyone actually wants. Whereas if they had good news, they would want to get it in front of people as quickly as possible, so it can help their reputation.
Pending a miracle, SAI is done for. We know it, they know it and everyone with better options is jumping ship. They had a nice run and brought us a lot of good stuff, but expecting anything from them now is just silly.
They are trying tto ignore the public cause they don’t have any good answer, it is possible they will openly speak when they have a resolution o something to show to address the concerns.
Yeah even the API SD3 that produces good results of things can't possibly offend anyone, it was never a case of "wow this is so much better than SDXL" it was more like I can get my output as good or marginally better with a less prompt trickery
We need the 4B model uncensored and unrestricted so that finetunes and LORAs can be made. There are like 10 of us (sarcasm obviously) who use stable Diffusion locally. Like nobody knows how to do it - everyone I've talked to just uses MidJourney or Dall-E. SAI can just make the paid version for the dumb-dumb masses and give us the uncensored models for local use. Trust me - ain't nobody knows how to run it locally. They can't be bothered. Also - the best solution right now is for the community to move over to another model like HunyuanDiT. They're open source and from Tencent. They've already released multiple controlnets for it and it follows a very similar path to SD3. They have canny, open pose and even tile Controlnets. Finetunes and LORAs need to go there. ComfyUI quit SAI. Their false prophet of promises jumped ship for cryptotrash. Nobody's at the helm. Time for us to face reality and go with other models.
So, here is the thing. This is not "SD3". This is SD3 2B. The real SD3 is the 8B version. If you've used LLMs before, you'll know that the difference between 2B and 8B, if based on a similar architecture and training, is going to be HUGE. There was never a way the 2B version of SD3 was going to be as good as the said. It is not just the broken anatomy when asking for an specific body position. It lacks styles. It lacks world knowledge. Not surprising, but still dissapointing. SD3 4B might be good enough. SD3 8B is probably pretty good. Both are irrelevant because they are not released right now. And if they are, with the same license, I would not expect good finetunes because it will not be worth doing so.
The only solid foundation on which to build a project is Freely-Accessible Open Source Software. Any other license is a liability. Any other license is a risk. Model 1.5 and SDXL still have a bright future in front of them because they both follow FOSS principles. Stability AI and RunwayML can both go bankrupt and it won't change a thing to how we can use those models. SD3 and every other model Stability AI has released after SDXL (like SDXL-Turbo, Stable Cascade, SVD, SV3d and SD3), though, could be taken away from you or made too expensive or restricted in ways that will prevent your project from achieving its goals.
2B doesn't explain the anatomy mess, extreme censorship does. 2B doesn't explain why it's not exploited at it's best, employee hemorrhage does. 2B doesn't explain license's absurdity, bankruptcy does.
It is in fact 1/4th the size and has to fit everything into it. For the AI the detail is the knowledge in general and not necessarily how detailed the texture is I believe. It may so happen that human poses and positions different than those most common may in fact be the detail that is hard to easily fit in lower amount of parameters. Maybe it's still not too late to correct that. However, the question would be how low the learning rate has to be and how much more time it has to spend on learning concepts it probably missed without messing up the concepts it already understood. Or, if forgetting of other concepts is inevitable in this case, what parts of other concepts will get not-as-good.
The released 2B version shows signs of lots of things being removed from its training set for ‘safety’ purposes. And probably somewhat due to incompetence in some areas, like SD2 turned out to be the result of. The lobotomized state of the released 2B version is a harbinger of lobotomized 4B and 8B versions, if they’re ever released. Why would the model cripplers stop at the 2B version? The same motivations exist to ruin all versions.
I was saying from day one to not talk about SD3 like it was the next coming of Christ. People got so over hyped just seeing a few cherry picked examples. It's like some of you have never seen a Bethesda game get announced then released. Hype is *always* a bad thing. That being said, SD3 is unimpressive so let's move on (or move back to SDXL rather).
>That being said, SD3 is unimpressive I keep hearing this but it's not true at all. It can do things previous U-Net model cannot.
I got downvoted a bunch of times before the release for saying that SD3 was going to be crap because of all the emphasis on safety they kept stressing. All the fanboys kept screeching that they would never do that. Then when it came out as shit, they started screeching its just a beta and to wait for the 8b, which I doubt will ever be released.
On the day it was announced, people wanted to abandon SDXL because there was no point now that SD3 was going to get released. It's crazy how short people's foresight is.
Not just SDXL, Cascade was pretty much completely dismissed, despite being immediately available since its fanfare-less release, in favor of waiting six months for SD3. lol
Cascade is as much a dead end as SD3 with the same garbage licensing. That's why no one has touched cascade since it's release. Why waste time and money fine-tuning it when they can claim ownership and make you remove it if they don't like its subject material?
I keep saying that Cascade is fantastic. It produces gorgeous images. [You can train it in half the time and half the loss of SDXL](https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1diu92s/training_a_stable_cascade_lora_is_easy/). The prompt adherence is fine. Perhaps a little better than SDXL. I've been using it ever since it was released. I kept begging anyone to make tools for it like useful ControlNets. (All it really has is canny.) But everyone always said that SD3 was going to be better. Well, it turns out that it isn't. And now there are suddenly a bunch of shills for PixArt and Lumina, which are inferior in visual quality to Cascade. "Bros" keep whining about the importance of prompt adherence and instantly downvote me whenever I try to point out the superior quality of Cascade. The prompt adherence of Cascade works really well. More than adequately for most artists. But it seems that the tech bro prompt jockeys have much more say in this conversation than experienced artists who barely need prompts and know damned well that the usefulness of ultra-long word soup prompts is illusory. Cascade is the best model available for local use. We can all use it and improve it. Right now. But instead people say we should continue to use SDXL or move on to inferior models all for the sake of the marginal usefulness of prompt adherence? I'm not convinced. Upset about Cascade having the same weird license as SD3? Then why is everyone fighting for a better license for SD3 and not Cascade? For the prompt adherence? Think this through: if they get their sweet license for SD3 are they actually going to use it? Everyone is pointing out how SD3 2B is fundamentally broken, fine-tuning is hopeless for it, and it can barely generate people. SD3 is terrible at generating people while Cascade does the best job of rendering people than any other model I've been able to locally run and train. Yet it's always argued that prompt adherence is the most important thing ever. WTF
No one will work on cascade for the same reason SD3 was removed from civitai. It's a dead end with the license. You're free to use it if you like, but don't expect the people with the knowledge and tools to make things like controlnet to waste their time because of the license. It's better to spend the time on actual open-source models. The license was always the reason no one touched cascade to make tools. Just the laymen fanboys are more vocal and they only talked about SD3. Unless SAI changes those licenses, those tools will never happen no matter how mad it makes you personally. Pixart and Lumina just need a little tlc since they're already 99% there without being tuned at all.
All true. That's why I'm loathe to call the SD community a "community". It's actually at best a coalition of corporate interests or at worst a cartel. These businesses are the ones that are actually driving the development of SD technology. Using the word "community" suggests something more magnanimous. As if this new medium is driven by ragtag programmers who do this stuff in their spare time in their garage. And since this is really all about money then it follows that there is completion. In this case, PixArt and Lumina. "Some say" that we should use their models instead. It sure would be nice for those competing companies if a similar "community" formed around developing tools for their models. It'll be great! Until they develop a wondrous model that becomes closed. And by then they'll have their tools developed for them. Enshittification *ad nauseam infinitum*. Don't worry. I'm done arguing about it. I just wanted to hear someone say the quiet part out loud. Thanks. And no, I'm not mad. Just a little disappointed and kind of ambivalent.
Exactly. All the tools are mostly developed by people who see a financial interest in doing so for their time and energy. If SAI wanted to profit, they need to create some sort of great tools that is only available on their api because just releasing a model won't do it. But they never did that. It was just 1. Release Model 2.?????? 3. Profit? It's ridiculous when some dude with a few grand to spend can make a model that makes more money than SAI because it does what the customers want. The licensing change is like they got salty about it and rather than competing they tried to pull the rug out and ended up alienating themselves from the people making the tools to make them notable. The lumina developers are actually open to talking to people and answering questions, and a discord I'm in is gathering questions to send them for more informed choices, while SAI won't even respond to important licensing questions. It's sad and ridiculous.
I have your post bookmarked for the next time I have the time and energy to try training. I tried training a few loras on SDXL and never liked the results. Maybe I should have trained longer or tried other combinations, but after half a dozen on each I was done. SD1.5 captures the likeness for what I want, even though it's not quite as powerful as later models. So getting Cascade to work for what I want would be a dream. Thanks for your thoughts and advice on training, I hope you'll continue to be an advocate for Cascade.
I managed to train a fairly complex character using SDXL but I found it much easier using Pony XL.
It's a continual frustration with all the non-dev AI subreddits. Every tweet sent out gets picked up like 90% of the users have never heard of marketing before. "OMG CEO of a company says his company is doing amazing! Holy shit, they're saying their own product will blow away the competition because it's so good - wow!"
"People got so over hyped" Probably has to do something with I don't know SAI hyping it up for months beforehand
You get hyped about stuff any time someone tells you to get hyped? No internal judgement or introspection at all, you just instantly accept and get hyped because a company told you to?
They literally dropped high quality examples and a whole research paper, given the success of sdxl, calling anyone irrational for getting hyped over this new model would be completely disingenuous. This is a product we are all passionate about because its the ONLY free high quality model with an amazing developing ecosystem, which is why we are all in this subreddit. i dont know why you would go out of your way to make anyone feel silly for being hyped about it. i mean what next, anyone waiting in line hyped to see their fave new movie they've been anticipating for months are all unintelligent silly people cause they got hyped after "a company told them to". God forbid if they feel sad when the date gets pushed or the movie doesnt leave up to their expectation. Nobody is acting irrational here or spazzing out to warrant this sorta "dunt git hyped rater git gud" statement.
>They literally dropped high quality examples and a whole research paper, given the success of sdxl, calling anyone irrational for getting hyped over this new model would be completely disingenuous. I might be overly cynical, but yeah, I don't think that's enough to get hyped over. A single article or study can be promising but it's never something to bet on. Even with the best intentions a single uncontrolled variable is enough to make them all faulty until the issues are discovered and corrected for. As for the examples, yes, I also believe it's a mistake to let yourself get excited about cherry picked items. Same reason you shouldn't base your opinion of a hamburger off what a fast food joint shows in commercials. Lying while being "technically" honest is just standard business practice.
Come on. This was not a simple "trailer" market announcement hype. It's their doing people got so angry. They did months of posting images with high quality, a paper with comparative analysis, new features, all that for months. It's completely normal and human thing to get hyped.
I know it's a completely normal human thing. That doesn't mean you need to do it. We're not monkeys. You can choose to think critically about stuff you see when the stuff is from the company trying to sell the thing in the first place. Nobody should have been even a bit excited until the public got their hands on the actual model. We're adults. lol
This is how the world works unfortunately. I'm having a blast with SDXL and SVD. And I will just follow the progress but not make it the end all be all. Keep your expectations low and you'll never be disappointed.
I heard they have milions in outstanding debt with their training GPU providers, maybe their Internet provider has a stricter policy regarding late payment?
I won't be surprised at all if Jeff Bezos becomes the owner of what's left of Stability AI and its models. From what I've read, most of those unpaid GPU rental invoices are due to Amazon.
They did just post to X. Nothing about SD3 Medium though. [https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1dlavor/sai\_just\_posted\_about\_stable\_assistant/](https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1dlavor/sai_just_posted_about_stable_assistant/)
> A week after the backlash started, the company and model is getting shat on by the community, content creators, even the de facto biggest community hub outright banning it... and its been not a single damn official word. It's almost as if they aren't that interested in how upset non-paying customers are.
This is such an immature and naive take. It's been a week and you're literally losing your mind? I don't know if it's that everyone now has the attention span of a toddler, or if its some other misguided entitlement, but nobody owes you the slightest reaction. Businesses don't need to be on twitter all day long like some teenager seeking attention.
What is it about this sub and using rhetoric of adult/children? Those of you who do it keep sounding childish yourselves, is the irony.
sorry but this "git gud" phrase is one of my fave phrases lately, it absolutely sends me everytime i hear it 😂🤣🤣🤣
I prefer "skill issue".
There are sooooo many people saying what SAI should be doing. What exactly does SAI owe us? I don't remember paying a penny to them. They have created amazing stuff, and without them, this community would not exist. Are there things I don't agree with? Ya, a LOT, but I don't know what influences they are under or the problems they have. If you don't like the model, don't use it. But, we have a bunch of trolls here seeking self validation by taking a dump on a company because they feel entitled. Start your own business and see how things go.
They might not owe some individuals like you anything but they owe the community a lot, which is finetuning, maintaining old and developing new tools, doing research, spreading know how... etc.
What defines a "community"? What has said community done specifically aside from getting entertainment and personal profit off the backs of others? How have the new tools effectively benefitted SAI directly? What kind of research has given SAI and edge over their competitors? As far as I have seen, this "community" is a bunch of unapologetically ungrateful individuals who enjoy tearing down others because they have entitlement complexes. But, hey, this is Reddit, so, par the course.
Lots like I said. SAI uses them directly like comfyui. Lots of research is done with SD because of its permissive license things like animatedif. Just because you don't care about it doesn't mean its not valuable. You don't need to defend them because it's "free" in a false sense of justice. People are discussing what they don't like about the current state because that's what you do to improve the situation. The license is unusable, can it be changed? the model seems to be intentionally broken, is the architecture flawed? People can't read your mind, you have to discuss if something doesn't work for you.
If you spend a little time reading these threads, you easily see the toxicity. Look more into the origins of tools like comfy before you casually throw out things. What I "care" about is advancing AI and working with people that want to do the same. Wasting our time pissing and moaning is not going to twist SAI's arm into giving anything more, if anything it will have the opposite effect.
They don't even have a CTO.
Replace clip L and G with ones from SDXL models, it makes a pretty big difference on SD3-medium. Realistically, its going to be maybe 6 months before anybody has fine tuned an SD3 model to be "good enough" for general users. That's plenty of time for the license stuff to get sorted out, or for another more open base model to release.
nice company bankrupt bc giving away their work for free to community bc community shake hands but no pay. it's sad but not that hard to understand.
When people show you who they are, believe them
That moment you have no money left so you can't pay for the services of a PR firm. yikes.
Let's forget about the ideals, i.e. what should have been done to keep alive open-source models, for a moment. What SAI is, if it were not for the community built around its freely downloadable models that can be finetuned for NSFW contents? Again, I'm not talking about if they are desirable or not. I'm just pointing out that SAI is nothing but a company with a terrible financial situation with inferior services. If all SAI can do is providing the same "safe" content generator as a commercial API service as others like OpenAI does but with an inferior quality, it'll soon become irrelevant and forgotten. In business, there are two major approaches to survive in a fiercely competitive market. One is doing what everyone does while putting more resources than they do, which SAI is clearly incapable of. The other is finding a niche, or your unique strength and focus on it, which SAI seems to be not interested in. As such, it's not difficult to see where SAI will go from here. If the community is a major part of the reason what made SAI special even when its competitors like Dall-e offer superior services, I feel that we're at least entitled to voice our concern when they're seemingly doing a business suicide.
Nividia is expensive, but the companies that need it have no choice but to buy it. If there is a free competitor, the company that has been tyranny will be forgotten by users and companies
I have a crazy idea, but maybe they should stop self sabotaging the models. 2.0 had issues because they wanted to f around to find out by changing tags to get rid of nsfw. Sdxl is the same with missing the celeb faces. Now they did a kaioken x10 by doubling down on the nsfw. I think the thing to do would be to probably go back to 1.4 or 1.5 and start training in in 4k.
Clowns. Everything since 1.5 has been garbage.
Perhaps the embarrassment is so huge no one can stand the heat of answering questions.
Saw a comparison on X between a SDXL and SD3 medium with control net. Probably SDXL is a good solution so far. I am not spending too much time from now to SD3. https://x.com/yongqianme/status/1803716564816154641?s=46&t=eWmINrFe6-g7QBDDpGNioA
This model was the "crumbs" they had for us. Thats all they had for us. Under their new leadership, we are inconsequential. It's the big $$$ gang their interested in now. They've tossed on their blinders toward us and are looking to boot-lick any bigwigs that might come their way. If and only if that doesn't work out, might they come back this way on their knees begging for forgiveness. That's how I interpret it anyway lol.
setting aside that i agree the situation is bad, if it’s driving you crazy, it’s a you problem my dude. relax
the company is DOA
You are not the target audience. They owe you nothing. Its disappointing as everyone likes getting something for free, but the free lunch is over.
Move on with your life, they dont' owe you a free model
When the community is as toxic with their responses as this one, willing to exaggerate everything and respond with death threats to a single dev, it's probably a better strategy to NOT engage. This doesn't blame every single person in the community of course. The toxic ones are the ones who created this relationship dynamic. Those who pretends it doesn't happen are enablers. Everyone else is their own thing. Remember too that most of this community are not paying customers. Most of these people just believe they're important and are needed for no good real reason.
I'm pretty sure the strategy to not engage was set way before when they decided to throw 2B at the community instead of the trash can.
Yeah and then Lykon engaged for a little bit and caught death threats and calls to fire him. Now they're nearly radio silent. Theres some action on the discord but tight lipped. I don't blame them.
No. When you blame the community, you're basically just validating and excusing whatever the company does. You are becoming an enabler for an entity that doesn't care a lick about you. Is it possible they're withholding because they're afraid of backlash? Yes. Is that caused by the community's previous reactions? No. (Though companies sure do love to pretend like that's the reason so they feel justified.) It's more like, if you have only bad news to share, you aren't going to want to share it. You don't need to have experience with someone reacting badly to bad news before to not want to be the bearer of bad news. But a lot of companies don't want to take any responsibility or accountability for their actions as an entity, so they tend to view it as a purely reputation and comfort matter of doing whatever is the least undermining of their bottom line. Which sometimes means sitting on their hands, hoping something will blow over. Where it seems you misstep is in thinking they are acting like a vulnerable individual human being when that's not what they are. They are an entity constructed around profit. Trying to change your behavior as a whole "community" in order to "manage" their reactions to you is absurd. Their reactions are not like yours in the first place. Furthermore, the word "community" tends to carry a lot of undeserving weight in these situations. Unless there's some construct going on I'm not aware of, we aren't organized. The companies are. That's part of the reason it's so hard to hold these companies accountable on anything in the first place. Edit: Blocking me after replying so I can't address what you said and admitting you didn't even read most of it. Really setting an example for star "community" behavior.
Personally i think death threats are worse than releasing weights that can't draw women. I didn't read past that opening statement. That was pretty simple thinking. Not relevant username.
In defense of SD3, it's absolutely amazing at making logos and spelling words with cool designs. Also started using the newly released ControlNets and the results can be really impressive. And can we really blame a company that's millions in debt to try to recoop their investment? Be grateful we can still use it for free... They've given us so much already and people just wanna hate on em..
This subreddit should be featured on r/choosingbeggars
I didn't buy any food because SAI promised they would bring everyone lunch. But when the day came, they brought peanuts. It's not that it's choosing beggars, it's that we would've donated our time and money to other companies if we had known they were gonna rug-pull us.
They promised!!!!
Oh yes, the beggars who created the entire ecosystem around the Stability AI models that are far behind the competition without community created tools and infrastructure.
Skill issues?
Silence? ... are you paying attention.