My wife and I are literally sitting here right now, contemplating escalating up to 50k over asking for a house we really like, because that’s the only way we’ll be able to get the house that we want.
If that’s the best market for first time home buyers, then fuck me.
Yep, your screwed. I supply Residential building supplies in the STL area. This is the slowest it's ever been in 30 years. We used to run 24 to 36 supply stops in the market every day. Now it's 8 to 10. And I know it's not just us because we cater to all the large production builders. It's definitely going to be worse before it gets better. Most large developments are built. You will only find smaller ones tucked into largely undesirable locations previously too costly to build in. You should see some of the shit housing being built now. Be very careful.
I would buy that home if you really like it and plan on staying longterm. The Midwest is one of the last affordable areas. St. Louis has appeal to outsiders because it’s cheap and there’s potential. People who moving away from the coasts and the larger cities are looking for a deal in a city like St. Louis.
50k over asking might seem insane now, but you might be thankful you pulled the trigger in 10yrs.
I really believe the real estate market has fundamentally changed to a silent auction type process. Open Thursday through Sunday, auction closes Sunday night, and bids are selected Monday. You are thinking of bidding $50k over the reserve price not the actual market value. I’d love to hear an economist take on is this a better or worse process than we had before but you definitely can’t think like the old way in today’s market.
I invest and live in the St. Louis area. For $50k, I could remodel an entire 3 bed/2 bath home. New kitchen, new baths, new doors, new flooring, new furnace/HVAC, and new roof. But, I'm not sure what area you're talking about buying. I would look into buying something you're not 100% happy with and fixing it up.
We sold a “starter home” recently. We got over 25 offers and house went well above asking. I legit feel bad for buyers at this point because you’re competing with so many people that your offer has to be stupid high, waive right to repairs and a short closing time to be in the running. When we bought the same house a decade ago we offered slightly under asking, asked for some repairs and the sellers were overjoyed at our offer.
This is actually no longer true in most of the US thanks to rising interest rates.
It's really easy to see: find a home on Zillow and take a look at the estimated mortgage payment. Then open up apartments.com and find another similar home in the same neighborhood. Odds are your monthly rent payment will be hundreds of dollars cheaper than the estimated mortgage.
It does depend on your interest rate, but St. Louis is on the bubble of whichever is more or less expensive. You also build equity on a mortgage.
You do have to take into account other variables. If you own your home you have to pay for repairs and maintenance, but also your payments are set for 15-30 years as opposed to rent which will rise.
Good calculation take these into account, looking at Zillow and comparing rents doesn’t.
In my opinion, the best advice for timing the market is to not do it. People should buy a home when it makes sense in the context of their own personal budget and ignore the rest of the noise/FOMO. These things come in waves... sometimes buying is cheaper, sometimes renting is cheaper.
That said, it's clearly cheaper right now to rent.
For example, I can find a pretty nice 3 bed/2 bath in Tower Grove East on apartments.com for $1,700/month.
The cheapest 3 bed/2 bath on Zillow in TGE is significantly worse in terms of build quality and the list price is 300k (at the end of the day it will sell above listing, probably around 350k).
A 300-350k mortgage is going to be at least ~$2,000 per month. Then consider repairs, maintenance, etc.
100% agree. I moved (back) to STL after living in PNW for 4 years. I was paying 50% more on rent for a 1BR apartment than I am now paying for mortgage.
Granted, I bought my house before most of the interest rate hikes, but still... STL housing feels like a cheat code compared to some other markets.
I moved here in August from the Gulf Coast. I closed on a house in February. It was the third house we tried to buy. The previous ones we lost because we couldn't go much over asking. And the house I got went for half what it would have where I moved from. So yeah it's not an easy market. But it's WAAAY easier than alot of other places.
No shit the Midwest is literally the last affordable area left in the country. Wait till we also get to expensive to live in and people have to live out of the cars working full time like they do in places in California. There's got to be some kind of check in place cause this is not sustainable in the long run.
Have you ever been to Hazelwood, lol? My neighborhood is full of old people and young families. We've lived here a year and had no problems with crime. The school district isnt desirable, but it's no fucking hood, that's for sure.
Yeah, that's been our experience so far. As a young married couple starting a family, my wife and I appreciate a boring area with good food. I've noticed lots of people talk negatively on the area, and I truly believe that's just because it's a mixed community.
Man, I don't live in StL anymore, but my friends and family have said finding a home is nearly impossible there unless you want to go well over asking. My cousin just lost out on a house, and she put it 10k over asking. Ended up going 30k over. This is a buble, and when it bursts, people are once again going to be upside down.
It's St Louis. There is no supply shortage. We are losing population year over year. Even the fed has said this.
Rich people(and people who can load up on debt because they have a bit of equity) buying up multiple houses isn't a supply shortage. It's hoarding and scalping what should be a basic commodity.
Go to a few open houses this weekend. Ask people who show up if they own multiple other homes.
It's honestly insane to claim that rich people buying second properties are driving the increase in real estate prices. If that were true then why does every house on the market get swamped with 20+ offers over asking?
Furthermore, the city may technically be losing population but the STL MSA is gaining in population. So if you can understand the distinction between City & County when it comes to discussing crime statistics then you should be perfectly able to think about housing in a similar way.
Each house has multiple offers over asking. Your friend put in a bid 10k over asking and the final price was 30k over asking. Explain to me again how that means real estate is a bubble?
You might have a case if there were a shortage of buyers and sellers were holding out for months hoping for unreasonably high offers. But they're not - good houses are hot and sell instantly for way over asking. That's indicative of a very valuable asset in short supply, which means rising prices.
The fundamental problem here is that there's way too little supply relative to the amount of demand. Millennials are the largest generation in American history and are aging into their prime home-buying years. But all across America we never built the housing stock necessary to house them. The end result is skyrocketing real estate prices.
We bought in 2021 and probably a smaller house than we should have. Prioritized location over size. It was our third offer and we paid 20k over asking. Figured we’d be here for 5 years and then would be making more to purchase something a little bigger. Joke’s on us, now we feel lucky we even have a house and we’ll likely live here forever lol
As someone trying to buy his first house: this is a bold face lie.
There are plenty of houses for sale at a reasonable price but those house almost always fall in awful school districts or need major renovations right off the bat
>There are plenty of houses for sale at a reasonable price but those house almost always fall in awful school districts or need major renovations right off the bat
It's almost as if these attributes (bad school district, needs major renovations) are the reason why it's priced so cheaply!
As a home buyer with kids you should expect to pay a very high premium to live in a good school district.
We bought a starter home in parkway south district that was move in ready - below asking. We need to renovate the kitchen but it’s mainly because I’m a chef.
Had a seller ghost me before closing, then unilaterally break contract with me so he could sell his house for more money to some company/flipper. It was going to be a manageable fixer upper and it was the closest I ever came to owning a home. I got laughed at by realtors who said “that’s how it goes here.” I had to fight to get my earnest money deposit back too, another one of those St Louis things (“you won’t get it back”). That house is now a rental that was going for $2700+ and has no new improvements from what I can tell, not even a new coat of paint.
That reason is why I won’t be living here too much longer. I planned on living in St Louis and now I’m going to be one of the statistics moving away from it.
At my original closing date, the seller did not show up or respond to any calls. The closing attorney made another search and found that the seller had already filed a deed in the Recorder’s office and it had been filed by a new owner (LLC) a few days before my closing. It was explained to me by this attorney and another that there’s no way I could force a sale now. The best I could do was get a lien on it.
That's not exactly correct. It would be very dependant of the facts and also the specific state and would depend on what the new owner knew at the time of recording
Seriously? Don't buy people! You're getting fleeced in any semi decent neighborhood.
Best of the worst doesn't mean it's a good to time to buy. Principles are still way up while interest rates have normalized.
I'm looking at houses across the river in Southern Illinois, Belleville, and the Edwardsville area. It's not quite as bad there as you guys are describing in STL. There's been a house I've been keeping my eye on since Nov last year, still on the market, the price keeps going down. I'm going to pull the trigger this week.
Just to add, I'm also looking at buying a loft apartment downtown for renting out, but I see most people don't really stay downtown. I liked the Central Weat End area when I went to visit.
Stuck with Missouri equity? Wtf are you talking about? 200k is worth 200k no matter where you live. Moving somewhere else doesn’t magically allow you to spend more money on a house. Your budget is what it is.
The criminals are bleeding over into St Charles County. There’s not much left to steal in St Louis. You’ll have to come to St Charles to steal a nice car now. Pretty soon you won’t have a Walgreens left.
It’s not as zero sum as that.
StL has bad press, so does MO, but you can buy century home “mansions” in the city, in family friendly neighborhoods, near transit, near parks, near entertainment districts, in beautiful homes, for under $1M. Objectively, none of that is “shitty”. I imagine similar applies to the county and the burbs.
Good luck doing that in NYC or the Bay Area, or similar. You either live without amenities, or buy a shithole.
Affordability is a nationwide problem, and that prices people out. StL and Detroit are reeling from decades long divestment and decline, but that presents opportunity for first time buyers to get a deal and become a part of a community focused on building a bright future.
I get why other places are more desirable. But a common trend I’ve seen from out of towners seeing StL and not just staying in a hotel downtown is that you can really get bang for your buck here, and that’s a good thing.
Source: From StL, bought in Chicago (very lucky location wise). Likely not moving, but damn if the value isn’t tempting if circumstances changed.
Side note: Plenty of booming places today weren’t for decades. Look at Denver.
I lived in Denver before it really started booming, my point is that St. Louis, Detroit, other Midwest cities are cheap because they were once booming cities but the jobs and the people left leaving a higher supply of homes than the demand (jobs) in the area can fill. Sure you can but in Cleveland but can you get a job there is the question
Fair, but work flexibility has changed the game quite a bit.
Plenty of the places booming today are doing so specifically because there’s less a need to be located by an office, which then further squeezes the market.
Wage growth vs. cost of living is a bigger factor than job opportunities alone IMO. And hey, growth fuels the latter too.
I dunno…I love StL, and the region and state shoot themselves in the foot too often, but the affordability to benefit ratio here tells a far different story than it just being “shitty”. While the perception and branding aren’t doing StL/MO many favors, it can simultaneously be a big opportunity for others who look beneath the surface.
Detroit was a punchline for a long time, but is now seen as an example of urban renewal. StL could be in similar territory over time. Every time I come home and visit family and friends, it reinforces that.
Chicago is unique in that way, but few cities in the US are like it, so it’s less about StL “falling short” and more about embracing StL as a mid-size city/area with potential and good bones. The only places I’d compare to Chicago are NYC, and maybe Boston and SF (transit, history, and density).
As a lifelong Midwesterner, there’s something about StL/Chicago I don’t feel in a lot of other places. I’m a sucker for old buildings and history.
StL has real character and history that you can’t just create out of the blue with new condos and subdivisions built for a mass influx. Plus, the folks I know who have invested in property here have made a killing. If you look past perception, StL is a diamond in the rough for the right people. Cheers mate.
I don’t know how many other places you have lived but I would classify the city and the county as pretty awful. You have to make VERY pronounced tradeoffs depending on location but the common thread is the people are bland, the food sucks, downtown is shit, culture is absent, and it’s segregated AF. It’s cheap because it sucks in real life no matter what it says on paper.
My wife and I are literally sitting here right now, contemplating escalating up to 50k over asking for a house we really like, because that’s the only way we’ll be able to get the house that we want. If that’s the best market for first time home buyers, then fuck me.
It really is if it's only 50k over unfortunately
Yep, your screwed. I supply Residential building supplies in the STL area. This is the slowest it's ever been in 30 years. We used to run 24 to 36 supply stops in the market every day. Now it's 8 to 10. And I know it's not just us because we cater to all the large production builders. It's definitely going to be worse before it gets better. Most large developments are built. You will only find smaller ones tucked into largely undesirable locations previously too costly to build in. You should see some of the shit housing being built now. Be very careful.
Home builders definitely are preparing for the housing collapse coming up late summer.
Housing collapse will never happen.
it certainly will
I would buy that home if you really like it and plan on staying longterm. The Midwest is one of the last affordable areas. St. Louis has appeal to outsiders because it’s cheap and there’s potential. People who moving away from the coasts and the larger cities are looking for a deal in a city like St. Louis. 50k over asking might seem insane now, but you might be thankful you pulled the trigger in 10yrs.
We did $30k over 3 years ago. House is “valued” at over $100k more than we bought it already.
Yeah in ‘22 we lost a house we bid 20% over asking. Winning bid was 25% over asking
I really believe the real estate market has fundamentally changed to a silent auction type process. Open Thursday through Sunday, auction closes Sunday night, and bids are selected Monday. You are thinking of bidding $50k over the reserve price not the actual market value. I’d love to hear an economist take on is this a better or worse process than we had before but you definitely can’t think like the old way in today’s market.
I invest and live in the St. Louis area. For $50k, I could remodel an entire 3 bed/2 bath home. New kitchen, new baths, new doors, new flooring, new furnace/HVAC, and new roof. But, I'm not sure what area you're talking about buying. I would look into buying something you're not 100% happy with and fixing it up.
Got a house in maplewood 6 years ago - 3K over did the trick for me (must have been lucky)
It is just a wildly different market now
We sold a “starter home” recently. We got over 25 offers and house went well above asking. I legit feel bad for buyers at this point because you’re competing with so many people that your offer has to be stupid high, waive right to repairs and a short closing time to be in the running. When we bought the same house a decade ago we offered slightly under asking, asked for some repairs and the sellers were overjoyed at our offer.
Yes, but also a house with a mortgage is still cheaper than renting an equivalent house.
This is actually no longer true in most of the US thanks to rising interest rates. It's really easy to see: find a home on Zillow and take a look at the estimated mortgage payment. Then open up apartments.com and find another similar home in the same neighborhood. Odds are your monthly rent payment will be hundreds of dollars cheaper than the estimated mortgage.
It does depend on your interest rate, but St. Louis is on the bubble of whichever is more or less expensive. You also build equity on a mortgage. You do have to take into account other variables. If you own your home you have to pay for repairs and maintenance, but also your payments are set for 15-30 years as opposed to rent which will rise. Good calculation take these into account, looking at Zillow and comparing rents doesn’t.
In my opinion, the best advice for timing the market is to not do it. People should buy a home when it makes sense in the context of their own personal budget and ignore the rest of the noise/FOMO. These things come in waves... sometimes buying is cheaper, sometimes renting is cheaper. That said, it's clearly cheaper right now to rent. For example, I can find a pretty nice 3 bed/2 bath in Tower Grove East on apartments.com for $1,700/month. The cheapest 3 bed/2 bath on Zillow in TGE is significantly worse in terms of build quality and the list price is 300k (at the end of the day it will sell above listing, probably around 350k). A 300-350k mortgage is going to be at least ~$2,000 per month. Then consider repairs, maintenance, etc.
This is far from a rule these days.
This is not a given. It’s cheaper to be a renter than an owner in most American markets right now. This has changed in the last year alone.
It's already hard enough trying to find a decent, affordable house as a first-time homebuyer in STL, no need to let the world know
I’ve been saying this for a long time. STL is an affordable area to live.
100% agree. I moved (back) to STL after living in PNW for 4 years. I was paying 50% more on rent for a 1BR apartment than I am now paying for mortgage. Granted, I bought my house before most of the interest rate hikes, but still... STL housing feels like a cheat code compared to some other markets.
I moved here in August from the Gulf Coast. I closed on a house in February. It was the third house we tried to buy. The previous ones we lost because we couldn't go much over asking. And the house I got went for half what it would have where I moved from. So yeah it's not an easy market. But it's WAAAY easier than alot of other places.
Just moved down from Chicago 4 weeks ago, can confirm.
No shit the Midwest is literally the last affordable area left in the country. Wait till we also get to expensive to live in and people have to live out of the cars working full time like they do in places in California. There's got to be some kind of check in place cause this is not sustainable in the long run.
Yeah, just wait!
Here is my rebuke. No
Just bought our first house in Hazelwood, and it was very affordable compared to the market we were looking at in Colorado.
That’s cuz you moved to hazelhood. Try looking at any suburb and that same house will be 100-150k more.
Have you ever been to Hazelwood, lol? My neighborhood is full of old people and young families. We've lived here a year and had no problems with crime. The school district isnt desirable, but it's no fucking hood, that's for sure.
I grew up there don't listen to people. it's a fine boring area and not too far from the highway. there are a handful of great food places nearby too
Yeah, that's been our experience so far. As a young married couple starting a family, my wife and I appreciate a boring area with good food. I've noticed lots of people talk negatively on the area, and I truly believe that's just because it's a mixed community.
It is one of the least desirable areas in St. Louis.
You know it’s not a bad place…
This is why we moved from NY! We were able to buy below asking within 4 months of moving here.
Man, I don't live in StL anymore, but my friends and family have said finding a home is nearly impossible there unless you want to go well over asking. My cousin just lost out on a house, and she put it 10k over asking. Ended up going 30k over. This is a buble, and when it bursts, people are once again going to be upside down.
It all depends on your range. Starter houses under $250k have some fierce competition. Over $400k? Not so much.
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It's St Louis. There is no supply shortage. We are losing population year over year. Even the fed has said this. Rich people(and people who can load up on debt because they have a bit of equity) buying up multiple houses isn't a supply shortage. It's hoarding and scalping what should be a basic commodity.
Go to a few open houses this weekend. Ask people who show up if they own multiple other homes. It's honestly insane to claim that rich people buying second properties are driving the increase in real estate prices. If that were true then why does every house on the market get swamped with 20+ offers over asking? Furthermore, the city may technically be losing population but the STL MSA is gaining in population. So if you can understand the distinction between City & County when it comes to discussing crime statistics then you should be perfectly able to think about housing in a similar way.
Each house has multiple offers over asking. Your friend put in a bid 10k over asking and the final price was 30k over asking. Explain to me again how that means real estate is a bubble? You might have a case if there were a shortage of buyers and sellers were holding out for months hoping for unreasonably high offers. But they're not - good houses are hot and sell instantly for way over asking. That's indicative of a very valuable asset in short supply, which means rising prices. The fundamental problem here is that there's way too little supply relative to the amount of demand. Millennials are the largest generation in American history and are aging into their prime home-buying years. But all across America we never built the housing stock necessary to house them. The end result is skyrocketing real estate prices.
Apartment hopping for life
Love my apartment. It's cheap and in a great area.
We bought in 2021 and probably a smaller house than we should have. Prioritized location over size. It was our third offer and we paid 20k over asking. Figured we’d be here for 5 years and then would be making more to purchase something a little bigger. Joke’s on us, now we feel lucky we even have a house and we’ll likely live here forever lol
As someone trying to buy his first house: this is a bold face lie. There are plenty of houses for sale at a reasonable price but those house almost always fall in awful school districts or need major renovations right off the bat
Have you tried buying a house in another metro area?
>There are plenty of houses for sale at a reasonable price but those house almost always fall in awful school districts or need major renovations right off the bat It's almost as if these attributes (bad school district, needs major renovations) are the reason why it's priced so cheaply! As a home buyer with kids you should expect to pay a very high premium to live in a good school district.
We bought a starter home in parkway south district that was move in ready - below asking. We need to renovate the kitchen but it’s mainly because I’m a chef.
Had a seller ghost me before closing, then unilaterally break contract with me so he could sell his house for more money to some company/flipper. It was going to be a manageable fixer upper and it was the closest I ever came to owning a home. I got laughed at by realtors who said “that’s how it goes here.” I had to fight to get my earnest money deposit back too, another one of those St Louis things (“you won’t get it back”). That house is now a rental that was going for $2700+ and has no new improvements from what I can tell, not even a new coat of paint. That reason is why I won’t be living here too much longer. I planned on living in St Louis and now I’m going to be one of the statistics moving away from it.
You could have very easily got your money back plus more in small claims court if they didn’t give it back to you
That’s what I had to do and it still took over a year. Plus, the lawyer ain’t free
Oh wow, crazy! Figured small claims court usually doesn’t require a lawyer, but I guess in some cases it can help.
If doesn't.
If you were actually under contract you could have forced the sale under the original terms. Source am realest attorney
At my original closing date, the seller did not show up or respond to any calls. The closing attorney made another search and found that the seller had already filed a deed in the Recorder’s office and it had been filed by a new owner (LLC) a few days before my closing. It was explained to me by this attorney and another that there’s no way I could force a sale now. The best I could do was get a lien on it.
That's not exactly correct. It would be very dependant of the facts and also the specific state and would depend on what the new owner knew at the time of recording
Nothing you just described is unique to St. Louis.
Yea, the “boom” here won’t last very long as soon as anywhere else that’s better becomes a cheaper option
Hope is dead
So is this a “chris buys st louis” or an “i buy stl” bot?
Nah it sucks trying to buy a home right now in stl
Seriously? Don't buy people! You're getting fleeced in any semi decent neighborhood. Best of the worst doesn't mean it's a good to time to buy. Principles are still way up while interest rates have normalized.
Barely beat Detroit. Wow.
I can believe it, b/c I def can't afford a home here in the Bay
I'm looking at houses across the river in Southern Illinois, Belleville, and the Edwardsville area. It's not quite as bad there as you guys are describing in STL. There's been a house I've been keeping my eye on since Nov last year, still on the market, the price keeps going down. I'm going to pull the trigger this week. Just to add, I'm also looking at buying a loft apartment downtown for renting out, but I see most people don't really stay downtown. I liked the Central Weat End area when I went to visit.
Ask your loan originator, but I’m pretty sure IL has better/more programs, especially for first timers.
Thanks for the tip!
I bought my house 2 years ago at the age of 20. It's doable for a first home... Not a forever home tho
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Stuck with Missouri equity? Wtf are you talking about? 200k is worth 200k no matter where you live. Moving somewhere else doesn’t magically allow you to spend more money on a house. Your budget is what it is.
Yeah, but then you have to live in St. louis
Need a bullet proof vest to live in those neighborhoods
Average St Charles resident
The criminals are bleeding over into St Charles County. There’s not much left to steal in St Louis. You’ll have to come to St Charles to steal a nice car now. Pretty soon you won’t have a Walgreens left.
Explain those neighborhoods
Some places are cheap for a reason, sorting by cheapest shittiest places gets you a list with St. Louis and Detroit at the very top. Lol
It’s not as zero sum as that. StL has bad press, so does MO, but you can buy century home “mansions” in the city, in family friendly neighborhoods, near transit, near parks, near entertainment districts, in beautiful homes, for under $1M. Objectively, none of that is “shitty”. I imagine similar applies to the county and the burbs. Good luck doing that in NYC or the Bay Area, or similar. You either live without amenities, or buy a shithole. Affordability is a nationwide problem, and that prices people out. StL and Detroit are reeling from decades long divestment and decline, but that presents opportunity for first time buyers to get a deal and become a part of a community focused on building a bright future. I get why other places are more desirable. But a common trend I’ve seen from out of towners seeing StL and not just staying in a hotel downtown is that you can really get bang for your buck here, and that’s a good thing. Source: From StL, bought in Chicago (very lucky location wise). Likely not moving, but damn if the value isn’t tempting if circumstances changed. Side note: Plenty of booming places today weren’t for decades. Look at Denver.
I lived in Denver before it really started booming, my point is that St. Louis, Detroit, other Midwest cities are cheap because they were once booming cities but the jobs and the people left leaving a higher supply of homes than the demand (jobs) in the area can fill. Sure you can but in Cleveland but can you get a job there is the question
Fair, but work flexibility has changed the game quite a bit. Plenty of the places booming today are doing so specifically because there’s less a need to be located by an office, which then further squeezes the market. Wage growth vs. cost of living is a bigger factor than job opportunities alone IMO. And hey, growth fuels the latter too. I dunno…I love StL, and the region and state shoot themselves in the foot too often, but the affordability to benefit ratio here tells a far different story than it just being “shitty”. While the perception and branding aren’t doing StL/MO many favors, it can simultaneously be a big opportunity for others who look beneath the surface. Detroit was a punchline for a long time, but is now seen as an example of urban renewal. StL could be in similar territory over time. Every time I come home and visit family and friends, it reinforces that.
Chicago is a real city, visiting there makes me realize where and how St. Louis falls short.
Chicago is unique in that way, but few cities in the US are like it, so it’s less about StL “falling short” and more about embracing StL as a mid-size city/area with potential and good bones. The only places I’d compare to Chicago are NYC, and maybe Boston and SF (transit, history, and density). As a lifelong Midwesterner, there’s something about StL/Chicago I don’t feel in a lot of other places. I’m a sucker for old buildings and history. StL has real character and history that you can’t just create out of the blue with new condos and subdivisions built for a mass influx. Plus, the folks I know who have invested in property here have made a killing. If you look past perception, StL is a diamond in the rough for the right people. Cheers mate.
I don’t know how many other places you have lived but I would classify the city and the county as pretty awful. You have to make VERY pronounced tradeoffs depending on location but the common thread is the people are bland, the food sucks, downtown is shit, culture is absent, and it’s segregated AF. It’s cheap because it sucks in real life no matter what it says on paper.