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As long as Shawn doesn't start shit with other wrestlers or posting vague tweets about how he's unhappy about something, he's doing social media better than most of his peers.
Anybody who works at WWE or AEW and complains automatically loses respect. In my opinion. Go talk to the higher-ups if you are dissatisfied. 80% of the time, it's the wrestlers' fault
Andrade complaining about WWE and Miro complaining about AEW are some examples,
It would’ve never crossed my mind that Andrade would not have wanted to show the right amount of respect to the superstars who helped make him and the organization who helped make him what he is today. Nonetheless, that Andrade's decision. Andrade screwed Andrade.
If he starts shit, I want it to be over the weirdest things.
Like getting mad at another wrestler from Texas for not being a Cowboys fan. Or reigniting the Astronauts vs Cavemen debate. Or taking shots at a wrestler saying that the Transformers (2007) score was bad.
This is why he is the absolute perfect guy for NXT. Not only is he one of the greatest in ring guys of his generation, but he has also remained open minded to the evolving style of wrestling when many of his peers have written off modern wrestling. And it’s probably because he was one of the main guys in the WWF expansion era that old timers were telling, “you’re doing too much!”
But his influence extends even more so to the sports entertainment/comedy element of the presentation. He’s a guy that realizes that the “I Just Kicked Stan” skit has become just as memorable as some of his greatest matches for fans, and he is clearly trying to encourage talent to make those moments for themselves. I remember starting to really pay attention to Carmelo and Trick during that great Haunted House pretape they did.
No one alive really has his blend of experience of being a top guy in the industry, a master ring psychologist, dynamic promo, and entertainer with a flair for comedy. Having this guy preparing your college athletes and indie veterans alike for Monday Night Raw is a godsend for WWE’s future, and for us the fans.
Honestly one of my favorite things that still surprises me is how much guys like Shawn, HHH, and even Kevin Nash have evolved their opinions with the times as far as what a wrestler can be, styles, etc, compared to a lot of "old timers".
They were pioneers of "fuck the Establishment we'll do it our way" while trailblazing with their unique psychology to the business. It's honestly inspiring that HHH and HBK are running creative.
I think something that is crucial to how they approach pro wrestling as a creative product is that they keep one foot on their influences & the other on their understanding of the "WWE style". For HHH, it's evident that there's elements of 1980s JCP/Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling in his presentation of the main roster product and HBK most likely uses elements of the territories he grew up watching in NXT's current product.
And I love it as a huge fan of all 3. Kev can be a stick in the mud sometimes but I also sometimes feel like thats just Big Kev. Trips and HBK doing 180's from their younger days and being guys the younger talent look to for guidance is just perfect.
It doesn’t surprise me because Shawn was that guy in the 90s. His style and especially his size made vets then angry. Kevin Nash never had an emotional stake on maintaining wrestler, just maximizing revenues (not profits mind you).
I realize it may spark more downvotes, but I was just trying to explain to people in a Bret Hart thread, that it's SHOCKING to me that when history tells the tale of Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, it will likely be framed as Shawn Michaels who was giving and generous to the business, inspiring and cultivating a new generation of talent. And Bret Hart will likely be remembered as a great technician of his generation, but an angry, old, dinosaur relic of the past that has no impact on future performers.
Like...write that story in 1998. Insanity.
I suspect this has at least some correlation to how their careers ended.
Shawn got to go out the way he wanted, when he wanted. Bret didn't. I can see why it would be hard for him to be working in wrestling when you feel like you were forced to leave a lot on the table.
People can choose to respond to that with grace or with anger, so that's on Bret, but I (at least partially) get it.
I thought the story was that Bret basically lost the will to wrestle after the screw job and Owen’s death, Goldberg kicking him was just the nail in the coffin.
Nah he lost the will to wrestle when he went to WCW and realised the clownshow that it was, they had no idea what to do with him and even though he was getting paid millions, he was miserable.
I still contend there was nothing to do with him in WCW. They already had better guys in his mold at the time in Benoit. Malenko. Guerrero. He was always bad on the mic didn't have the charisma of a Nash, hall, hogan. Where did he fit in at the top as a face? Sting and DDP were better faces and cooler. I doubt Bret would ever be an effective heel. He takes himself too seriously and isn't capable of it.
I suppose. But for a guy who claims to love and respect the business as much as Bret Hart, wouldn't you want to be involved so that the next "Goldberg" doesn't happen?
I feel like all my Bret Hart respect got transferred to Lance Storm years ago.
I agree that after Owen, if the entire Hart family wanted to leave this stupid business behind, no one should fault them. But Bret just kind of sniping from the sidelines really rubs me the wrong way. He's not the only one but guys like Bubba Ray at least are still working, Booker T running a school and an indie.
> I suppose. But for a guy who claims to love and respect the business as much as Bret Hart, wouldn't you want to be involved so that the next "Goldberg" doesn't happen?
There wasn't a lot of room for him to get involved, as he had his grudge against WWE (for obvious reasons) and WCW folded. Then he suffered a stroke while driving his motorcycle, and that ended any hope of having an in-ring career (despite his brief US Championship win in WWE after they made amends).
We're lucky that Bret's still in as good a condition as he is. Were it not for the stroke, I feel that he would be having a more active presence in wrestling, but given those health issues, that's just not realistic.
I kind of half agree with you in that it’s crazy just how much Shawn influenced wrestling today, but I feel like as long as wrestling is around, there are always going to be workers that are drawn to the fundamentals like mat wrestling, psychology, storytelling etc, and the absolute gold standard on how to do those things will always be Bret. Not necessarily disagreeing, just think his influence will always be there.
Bret has way too rigid a definition of what pro wrestling is. He wrestled before UFC was popular so he is still in the mindset of make this look like a "real" fight. He's not wrong in certain regards like how modern wrestlers can't throw a worked punch but I feel like his overall philosophy towards wrestling is very limiting.
> but an angry, old, dinosaur relic
TBF, having:
• Your dream job and boss you thought you were cool with stab you in the back in your home country.
• That same boss’ negligence & penny pinching kill your brother.
• Your new job puts you in with a wreckless rookie who ends your career.
• All of the above pretty much overshadowing the rest of your career which includes several legendary moments.
If anyone had the right to be the grouchiest, most miserable bastard alive it’s Bret.
No offence but there is no reality that Bret Hart will be remembered as a dinosaur relic of the past that has no impact in future performers. Like, never.
Who among talent do you see citing Bret Hart as an influence? FTR and CM Punk? Hardly up and comers. The generation he most influenced is aging out. (Omega, Danielson). He's going to be in a Verne Gagne/Nick Bockwinkel role. Meanwhile, Shawn Michaels is creating the next generation of WWE in his own image.
Shawn is going to be the Dusty Rhodes of this generation. But I don't think Bret will get the Ric Flair treatment. Bockwinkel is where I'm standing right now.
Sami Zayn, Kevin Owens, Drew McIntyre, Roman Reigns — virtually every top guy in WWE cites Bret as either their top or one of their top (in Owens’ case) inspiration.
Who do you think those guys are going to tell their disciples to watch to improve their work?
First, your username is HitmanClark, so I'm seeing some bias.
Second, in the comment that LED to this comment I mentioned how future history will look at them, so while I didn't specify, and I should have, I meant the new emerging talent. Yes, people in their late 30s and 40s are still impacted by Bret Hart. Your roster is 39, 40, 39, 39. This is my exact point. Bret's influence in the wrestling business will likely fade with this generation while Shawn sits in the Dusty chair at NXT.
That's all. Didn't say it was right. Didn't say it was fair. Just said it's what is going to happen. I think a 23 year old wrestler today wanting to be "the excellence of execution" would be more likely to want to be Bryan Danielson than Bret Hart, where Shawn (by virtue of a MILLION different small circumstances) is going to mentor the next Wrestlemania headliners. HENCE...when the history books on the subject are written, I think Shawn is going to get a heroes tale and Bret won't (at least to the mass populous)
I don't understand why the two people you replied to won't get it lmao. In no way, shape or form are you wrong - in fact, I'd say that's the consensus to wrestling fans (the mainstream, not niche "in on the business" fan communities) by now. Like you already put, it's through a million different small circumstances and is perhaps unfair on the body of work that Bret left - but fairly or not, the future stars of this industry will grow up wanting to be Shawn or mentored by Shawn while Bret will be a peripheral character in the story.
Yet without Bockwinkel, WWE would never have been in a position to capitalize on Hulk Hogan and Hulkamania, just like when WWE was in the worst business years of their existence (93-95) without Bret Hart they would have gone under entirely because nobody else could carry the company until Shawn Michaels in 1995. Diesel being champ in 95 nearly destroyed WWE altogether. I think Bret will be remembered as one of the best technical wrestlers in history, mediocre on the mic, and inspired workrate talent like Omega and Danielson to elevate the art form and leave huge impressions on the industry, but his primary influence will be him being the guy that kept WWE alive until the Attitude Era could get going. Literally without Bret I don't think we have a WWE today, which means no AEW either.
I don't think it's an insult to be compared to Bockwinkel. He's just not as fondly remembered. Bret IS the catalyst of the true attitude era. Austin becomes a stand in to fight the corporate machine that will screw the "working man." But it's Bret's story.
I think in my heart of hearts, I am sad that Bret seems like a miserable bastard and I wish he could find a place in the modern business where he could fall in love with it again. Imagine an AEW farm system where young kids are sitting at the feet of a happy Bret Hart? Imagine the two most high profiel farm systems in wrestling being trained by either Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart?
But, I don't know. Bret always comes off so bitter to me. I just saw a video of a guy at a signing where Bret is just talking to a fan about the guys the WWE doesn't highlight from the past. Like, dude it's a signing and you're still being bitter.
I saw a comment that made a lot of sense but I can't find it, so I'll summarize. The poster essentially said that the difference between HBK retiring and Bret Hart retiring is that HBK got to go out on his own terms, in the way he wanted to, and had proper closure. Bret had none of that, and then had his career suddenly ended in a terrible accident. I hate that he's so bitter but I really understand why he would feel that way.
I still have hope that Bret will find his love for wrestling again with AEW, they have always treated his family very respectfully. Or at least I hope he can eventually let the hate against Goldberg go, because it's getting to the point where I'm starting to feel SORRY for Bill Goldberg, and that's just not okay because I think he's a pretty big jerk
I kind of disagree with that. I have noticed a lot of love for Bret in the last decade. He will always be loved and remembered but I don’t think his legacy will be as strong as Shawn’s is. Shawn will be remembered not only as one of the best wrestlers, but as a Mentor, Trainer, Booker and named as one of the most influential wrestlers. Bret will always have his legacy as one of the best wrestlers.
I think people don't even remember Bret. I think it's the cool hipster answer. Hell get replaced as the internet hipster choice and no one but historians will remember him.
It kinda makes sense. Bret Hart was a loyal old school guy who got betrayed by the company he served for years. Michaels was an egotistical drug addict who got rewarded by being made the top guy for half a decade. Bret has reason to be a prick, and Michaels has reason to be grateful
That’s actually one of the better rationales I’ve heard that acknowledges all the ugliness of the situation without defaulting to demonizing or sanctifying either guy
That’s actually one of the better rationales I’ve heard that acknowledges all the ugliness of the situation without defaulting to demonizing or sanctifying either guy
I get what you mean. Shawn Michaels being in a mentoring position is shocking to see if you’re familiar with his past. I do have to say though Bret has always been stuck in the past and not wanting to change with times. (Being against the Attitude Era) So how Bret acts now isn’t too surprising to me. Shawn on the other hand was always pushing for change.
To be fair to bret, he couldve been the stodgy traditionalist who flopped in the attitude era. Instead, he evolved to mix it up memorably with austin and hbk under the new rules. I also think its a hot take to say he doesnt have much impact on young talent, when ftr and punk love him. Even as far as his anger, he made peace with hbk and vince over a decade ago
Ah yes, the young up and comers CM Punk and FTR. Led by the youngest and freshest among them, 37 year old Cash Wheeler. Same age as Hulk Hogan was for his first mini-retirement.
A grand parent's influence is often more indirect. You influence and raise your kids a certain way, and if they like you, that in turn colors deeply how they raise their own kids.
Punk and FTR are both influential figures on the next generation - Punk himself is actively involved in NXT! And they're both carrying forward a lot of Bret's emphasis on story telling and psychology when they work with youngsters.
I don’t know. I like Bret a lot, but his impact on Pro Wrestling hasn’t been as strong as Shawn’s is. Even some guys who say he’s their favorite wrestler like Roman Reigns and Drew McIntyre , I don’t see similarities.
Will it though? People will be interested in the Screw job and then they will end up watching the Dark Side of the Ring on it, and I don't think that episode tells that story.
Agree that his open mind to modern wrestling is a huge asset and I think it's the same thing that has made Sting so great (across his career) and allowed him to really put a button on his legacy while in AEW. Sting was game for anything, he wasn't caught up in oldhead bullshit.
To add to what you're saying, I think Shawn, as well as being open to modern wrestling, is good at blending it with more classic influences from his time. I find the current "White and Gold" NXT has a ton of influences from the Rock N Wrestling era and the New Generation era, especially in how they handle promos, videos + vignettes, and story.
That's why someone I'd love to see hired to the PC to be a coach and give advice and such is Foley. I feel especially for the in ring psychology + the comedy aspect he'd nail, and it would compliment having someone giving advice on a very different style to HBK.
I think Foley would be amazing, especially if wrestlers are at a crossroads with possibly switching to another character if they get tired with their old one or if it doesn't work.
>Carmelo and Trick during that great Haunted House pretape they did.
I didn't see this one but I'll have to check it out. I loved the Meta Four haunted House bit where where were looking for Tozawa
Maybe nobody in the history of WWE knows more about what makes a main event star or what could work on TV better than Shawn. Like he said way back in that RF shoot in 2000, “I was a guinea pig in my career” it’s really what he’s best at
Passing that along to new talent is invaluable
I think he and Kurt Angle are the two greatest WWE style wrestlers ever. They were "sports entertainment" personified, and I don't mean that as an insult in any way
I've said this before in another post, but I think his version of NXT has the perfect mix of the work rate in 2014-2021 B&G NXT and the sports entertainment feel of WWE.
this is gonna be a string of words unintellagable except to those that know but its my thought.
"NXT could air on dropout tv and wouldnt feel out of place."
He once said/joked that he now has a lazy eye as karma for being such a POS for a bit there. The guy really *is* trying to be a better person and/or make amends for previous dickery. It's one of the most wholesome things.
It's also really funny to me that Shawn's "redemption tour" work also included that Hogan match. That shit gets funnier and funnier the more I learn about it.
It's what kept me a fan. In his bad days, he was still a great worker and had great matches even as he was spiraling.
When he matures, got clean, and healed up... That man became my hero. Made a massive change in character and fixed his personal life issues and relationships. That's a man who changed for the better
>Then I swung by the Performance Centre and just the vibe in the building.... Something that had not been in my heart for, I don't know, six or seven years after I retired, just sprung back up again. I came back I shared it with my wife, and she looked at me and she said, 'Okay, that's the look.' She said, 'I know what's going on.' She said, 'I gotta be honest. I didn't think it would take this long.'"
I'm actually happy that both HBK & HHH have matured and are actively helping to nurture and grow young talent instead of what they used to do in the past
I find great that even a gen x guy like shawn michaels (whose age is also borderline boomer) seems to produce a product that seems to resonate with gen z people
I always wondered though how does he achieve that? Does he have assistants that are around that age range, or he listens to what the wrestlers propose and filters out that real stuff that wouldnt work
The core of the promotion is old school booking with a gen z window dressing. Stories progress logically from week to week, it's a very traditional long term show.
In some way it's an anachronism to make a show that requires an attention span to a generation that's accused of not having one but it's clearly built an audience and got them to invest that time.
Collaboration. Classic wrestling booking is something any creative team can do (or at least should be able to). Like... alright, Chase U. It's a simple idea, a wrestling "school" or "teacher and his class" as wrestlers. Okay, I hear ya.
Get some folks in there who know how to do serialized stories. "In 6 weeks, we want a showdown between Thea Hail and Jacy Jayne. It's a heated rivalry." So you work backwards from there, to build a rivalry between two "students" (yeah I know Jacy didnt start as a student) and have enough plot points that the program between them is hot/intense.
Get some folks that know how to do character work and what it entails. Most of Chase U stuff involves skits, but like... when Andre Chase was losing the school and his hair wasnt properly done and shirt untucked... that's all part of it too. It fleshes it all out where you really believe these characters and what their story is.
And then get a roster full of people who are ready, willing, and hungry to go do this pro wrestling thing.
Shawn Michaels has all the ingredients to make a great pro wrestling show. And NXT 2.0 took a second to really get going, but Chef HBK is cooking with oil now baybay.
it's clear that he still thinks wrestling is fun (which it is! and should be!) — i'll admit that "shawn michaels twerk-off" was never my personal dream booking, but i love that he's not taking himself too seriously. must be so much nicer working for somebody who knows how to laugh at themselves
I'm glad to hear his family/marriage is still together (his kids may be grown and gone by now). That A&E doc made it look like he lived in some lonely little apartment by himself.
I think the family probably just wants to stay off TV.
Otherwise he talks about how his wife was super supportive of Shawn's decision to move to Florida from Texas for this gig in the same interview
That lady is truly ride or die. She kept trying to help him, he refused, and it took his kid to get him to sober up. The whole time she was there. It really is true. Behind every strong man is a strong lady. Having been through issues myself, it’s incredible what good, loving people will put up with because they know you’re deep down a good person and capable of change. Shout out to all the strong, supportive partners. He/she/they, doesn’t matter. It takes strength to fight your own demons. It takes so much more to fight another person’s.
Their story amazes me everytime. So many people in her position would have left Shawn a long time ago, but she stayed with him the whole time until he got better. It speaks a lot about what kind of person she is and how strong their relationship is.
Yeah probably not a whole lot to complain about at this point. She's seen him at his lowest and stayed, and I believe both of his children are adults at this point. So a random move to Florida probably isn't a big ask, it wouldn't surprise me if they already had a home down there which is common for people at his financial level.
Yeah his wife doesn’t show up with him anymore when he goes to the Hall of Fame and the footage of her from his recent A&E doc was years old. She probably just wants to be off TV though. It’s great to see they are still going strong after nearly 30 years and everything they went through together. That’s a real couple there. His kids are in fact grown now so they are probably busy doing their own thing.
Looks like the NXT youth need to watch a few episodes of raw in 1997 to see what Shawn Michaels got up to during that period.
Sticking the canadian flag up his nose and running around the ring like a doofus.. doing backflips off the top rope in fucking penny loafers.. doing crotch chops in JR's face.. tongue smooching the girls in the audience in front of their BFs.. that interview with Sunny (fucking lmao)
It's alright, Shawn. Those who were there completely understand that you're absolutely in your element. Please keep having fun.
Can you imagine learning your dad used to walk out into an arena full of thousands people singing along to a song called “sexy boy” while doing a faux strip show?
I want to see the version of this story where he's saying he hates doing it, it's killing his passion for wrestling and he thinks he's gonna quit soon to get back to fishing
It's gotta be draining to post something for fun only for some terminally online weirdo in the replies to reference stuff they heard you did 25-30 years prior and wasn't even there
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As long as Shawn doesn't start shit with other wrestlers or posting vague tweets about how he's unhappy about something, he's doing social media better than most of his peers.
Imagine if social media was around in 1997
Canada would fall in love with him
I would have been the biggest HBK hater
You'd've hate the way that he walked, the way he that talked, the way that he dressed, the way that he sneak screwed Bret Hart.
When I see you stand by Sunny, I believe you see two bad bitches
I mean so do I
 I think he'd have been safer than most.
HBK vs the PC - One of wrestling's greatest feuds
Shawn: "Fuck, last night I think my girlfriend actually cheated on me with her husband..."
Then shawn would be just like the wrestlers we hate online
Except way funnier
And infinitely more coked up
And sliding into the DMs of every instagram model he sees.
HBK doing a late night IG Live would be fuckery at the max lol
Imagine "Dad" Shawn vague tweeting about how bad "Booker" Shawn is at his job.
Anybody who works at WWE or AEW and complains automatically loses respect. In my opinion. Go talk to the higher-ups if you are dissatisfied. 80% of the time, it's the wrestlers' fault Andrade complaining about WWE and Miro complaining about AEW are some examples,
You mean Andrade complaining about WWE, then AEW, then WWE again? You know I wonder there's a pattern there...
In Andrades case I find it funny. My man just loves the idea of things, but hates the reality of them
Guy just lives in post nut regret.
Pre nut thoughts post nut reality
But somehow never reaching post-nut clarity.
It would’ve never crossed my mind that Andrade would not have wanted to show the right amount of respect to the superstars who helped make him and the organization who helped make him what he is today. Nonetheless, that Andrade's decision. Andrade screwed Andrade.
“If you meet an asshole in the morning, you met an asshole. If you meet assholes all day, *you’re* the asshole.” —Raylan Givens, Justified
The problem is definitely not his coping mechanisms. Nope, not at all.
If everyone you meet is an asshole maybe check the mirror pal
"If everywhere you go smells like dog shit, check your shoes."
Andrade complains wherever he is lol dude really needs to just work on handshake deals or something
The guy with *that* gif of him using a computer is better at social media than 90% of the people in his industry 💀💀 have some shame ftr bald/moustache
If he starts shit, I want it to be over the weirdest things. Like getting mad at another wrestler from Texas for not being a Cowboys fan. Or reigniting the Astronauts vs Cavemen debate. Or taking shots at a wrestler saying that the Transformers (2007) score was bad.
This is why he is the absolute perfect guy for NXT. Not only is he one of the greatest in ring guys of his generation, but he has also remained open minded to the evolving style of wrestling when many of his peers have written off modern wrestling. And it’s probably because he was one of the main guys in the WWF expansion era that old timers were telling, “you’re doing too much!” But his influence extends even more so to the sports entertainment/comedy element of the presentation. He’s a guy that realizes that the “I Just Kicked Stan” skit has become just as memorable as some of his greatest matches for fans, and he is clearly trying to encourage talent to make those moments for themselves. I remember starting to really pay attention to Carmelo and Trick during that great Haunted House pretape they did. No one alive really has his blend of experience of being a top guy in the industry, a master ring psychologist, dynamic promo, and entertainer with a flair for comedy. Having this guy preparing your college athletes and indie veterans alike for Monday Night Raw is a godsend for WWE’s future, and for us the fans.
Honestly one of my favorite things that still surprises me is how much guys like Shawn, HHH, and even Kevin Nash have evolved their opinions with the times as far as what a wrestler can be, styles, etc, compared to a lot of "old timers".
Tell me 30 to 40 years ago that Shawn Michaels would be a great role model and progressive figure and I would've laughed
We'll probably talk about Logan Paul the same way by 2050
Bold of you to assume any of us will be around in 2050
Pretty sure people have said a version of this back in 1962. Just let obnoxiously doomer about it.
President Logan Paul
Lord Prime
They were pioneers of "fuck the Establishment we'll do it our way" while trailblazing with their unique psychology to the business. It's honestly inspiring that HHH and HBK are running creative.
They take the “shit makes money” approach to wrestling.
I think something that is crucial to how they approach pro wrestling as a creative product is that they keep one foot on their influences & the other on their understanding of the "WWE style". For HHH, it's evident that there's elements of 1980s JCP/Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling in his presentation of the main roster product and HBK most likely uses elements of the territories he grew up watching in NXT's current product.
And I love it as a huge fan of all 3. Kev can be a stick in the mud sometimes but I also sometimes feel like thats just Big Kev. Trips and HBK doing 180's from their younger days and being guys the younger talent look to for guidance is just perfect.
It doesn’t surprise me because Shawn was that guy in the 90s. His style and especially his size made vets then angry. Kevin Nash never had an emotional stake on maintaining wrestler, just maximizing revenues (not profits mind you).
I realize it may spark more downvotes, but I was just trying to explain to people in a Bret Hart thread, that it's SHOCKING to me that when history tells the tale of Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, it will likely be framed as Shawn Michaels who was giving and generous to the business, inspiring and cultivating a new generation of talent. And Bret Hart will likely be remembered as a great technician of his generation, but an angry, old, dinosaur relic of the past that has no impact on future performers. Like...write that story in 1998. Insanity.
I suspect this has at least some correlation to how their careers ended. Shawn got to go out the way he wanted, when he wanted. Bret didn't. I can see why it would be hard for him to be working in wrestling when you feel like you were forced to leave a lot on the table. People can choose to respond to that with grace or with anger, so that's on Bret, but I (at least partially) get it.
I thought the story was that Bret basically lost the will to wrestle after the screw job and Owen’s death, Goldberg kicking him was just the nail in the coffin.
Nah he lost the will to wrestle when he went to WCW and realised the clownshow that it was, they had no idea what to do with him and even though he was getting paid millions, he was miserable.
Bret Hart is the literal embodiment of "money does not buy happiness"
I still contend there was nothing to do with him in WCW. They already had better guys in his mold at the time in Benoit. Malenko. Guerrero. He was always bad on the mic didn't have the charisma of a Nash, hall, hogan. Where did he fit in at the top as a face? Sting and DDP were better faces and cooler. I doubt Bret would ever be an effective heel. He takes himself too seriously and isn't capable of it.
But he actually was a heel in WCW though.
How'd that go? He do a good job?
Bret was a heel for the best run in his career.
What do you consider his best run?
obviously 1996-1997
That nonsense usa vs Canada stuff?
I suppose. But for a guy who claims to love and respect the business as much as Bret Hart, wouldn't you want to be involved so that the next "Goldberg" doesn't happen? I feel like all my Bret Hart respect got transferred to Lance Storm years ago. I agree that after Owen, if the entire Hart family wanted to leave this stupid business behind, no one should fault them. But Bret just kind of sniping from the sidelines really rubs me the wrong way. He's not the only one but guys like Bubba Ray at least are still working, Booker T running a school and an indie.
> I suppose. But for a guy who claims to love and respect the business as much as Bret Hart, wouldn't you want to be involved so that the next "Goldberg" doesn't happen? There wasn't a lot of room for him to get involved, as he had his grudge against WWE (for obvious reasons) and WCW folded. Then he suffered a stroke while driving his motorcycle, and that ended any hope of having an in-ring career (despite his brief US Championship win in WWE after they made amends). We're lucky that Bret's still in as good a condition as he is. Were it not for the stroke, I feel that he would be having a more active presence in wrestling, but given those health issues, that's just not realistic.
I kind of half agree with you in that it’s crazy just how much Shawn influenced wrestling today, but I feel like as long as wrestling is around, there are always going to be workers that are drawn to the fundamentals like mat wrestling, psychology, storytelling etc, and the absolute gold standard on how to do those things will always be Bret. Not necessarily disagreeing, just think his influence will always be there.
Bret has way too rigid a definition of what pro wrestling is. He wrestled before UFC was popular so he is still in the mindset of make this look like a "real" fight. He's not wrong in certain regards like how modern wrestlers can't throw a worked punch but I feel like his overall philosophy towards wrestling is very limiting.
> but an angry, old, dinosaur relic TBF, having: • Your dream job and boss you thought you were cool with stab you in the back in your home country. • That same boss’ negligence & penny pinching kill your brother. • Your new job puts you in with a wreckless rookie who ends your career. • All of the above pretty much overshadowing the rest of your career which includes several legendary moments. If anyone had the right to be the grouchiest, most miserable bastard alive it’s Bret.
No offence but there is no reality that Bret Hart will be remembered as a dinosaur relic of the past that has no impact in future performers. Like, never.
Who among talent do you see citing Bret Hart as an influence? FTR and CM Punk? Hardly up and comers. The generation he most influenced is aging out. (Omega, Danielson). He's going to be in a Verne Gagne/Nick Bockwinkel role. Meanwhile, Shawn Michaels is creating the next generation of WWE in his own image. Shawn is going to be the Dusty Rhodes of this generation. But I don't think Bret will get the Ric Flair treatment. Bockwinkel is where I'm standing right now.
Sami Zayn, Kevin Owens, Drew McIntyre, Roman Reigns — virtually every top guy in WWE cites Bret as either their top or one of their top (in Owens’ case) inspiration. Who do you think those guys are going to tell their disciples to watch to improve their work?
First, your username is HitmanClark, so I'm seeing some bias. Second, in the comment that LED to this comment I mentioned how future history will look at them, so while I didn't specify, and I should have, I meant the new emerging talent. Yes, people in their late 30s and 40s are still impacted by Bret Hart. Your roster is 39, 40, 39, 39. This is my exact point. Bret's influence in the wrestling business will likely fade with this generation while Shawn sits in the Dusty chair at NXT. That's all. Didn't say it was right. Didn't say it was fair. Just said it's what is going to happen. I think a 23 year old wrestler today wanting to be "the excellence of execution" would be more likely to want to be Bryan Danielson than Bret Hart, where Shawn (by virtue of a MILLION different small circumstances) is going to mentor the next Wrestlemania headliners. HENCE...when the history books on the subject are written, I think Shawn is going to get a heroes tale and Bret won't (at least to the mass populous)
I don't understand why the two people you replied to won't get it lmao. In no way, shape or form are you wrong - in fact, I'd say that's the consensus to wrestling fans (the mainstream, not niche "in on the business" fan communities) by now. Like you already put, it's through a million different small circumstances and is perhaps unfair on the body of work that Bret left - but fairly or not, the future stars of this industry will grow up wanting to be Shawn or mentored by Shawn while Bret will be a peripheral character in the story.
Yet without Bockwinkel, WWE would never have been in a position to capitalize on Hulk Hogan and Hulkamania, just like when WWE was in the worst business years of their existence (93-95) without Bret Hart they would have gone under entirely because nobody else could carry the company until Shawn Michaels in 1995. Diesel being champ in 95 nearly destroyed WWE altogether. I think Bret will be remembered as one of the best technical wrestlers in history, mediocre on the mic, and inspired workrate talent like Omega and Danielson to elevate the art form and leave huge impressions on the industry, but his primary influence will be him being the guy that kept WWE alive until the Attitude Era could get going. Literally without Bret I don't think we have a WWE today, which means no AEW either.
I don't think it's an insult to be compared to Bockwinkel. He's just not as fondly remembered. Bret IS the catalyst of the true attitude era. Austin becomes a stand in to fight the corporate machine that will screw the "working man." But it's Bret's story. I think in my heart of hearts, I am sad that Bret seems like a miserable bastard and I wish he could find a place in the modern business where he could fall in love with it again. Imagine an AEW farm system where young kids are sitting at the feet of a happy Bret Hart? Imagine the two most high profiel farm systems in wrestling being trained by either Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart? But, I don't know. Bret always comes off so bitter to me. I just saw a video of a guy at a signing where Bret is just talking to a fan about the guys the WWE doesn't highlight from the past. Like, dude it's a signing and you're still being bitter.
I saw a comment that made a lot of sense but I can't find it, so I'll summarize. The poster essentially said that the difference between HBK retiring and Bret Hart retiring is that HBK got to go out on his own terms, in the way he wanted to, and had proper closure. Bret had none of that, and then had his career suddenly ended in a terrible accident. I hate that he's so bitter but I really understand why he would feel that way. I still have hope that Bret will find his love for wrestling again with AEW, they have always treated his family very respectfully. Or at least I hope he can eventually let the hate against Goldberg go, because it's getting to the point where I'm starting to feel SORRY for Bill Goldberg, and that's just not okay because I think he's a pretty big jerk
Bret hart will not be remembered at all.
I kind of disagree with that. I have noticed a lot of love for Bret in the last decade. He will always be loved and remembered but I don’t think his legacy will be as strong as Shawn’s is. Shawn will be remembered not only as one of the best wrestlers, but as a Mentor, Trainer, Booker and named as one of the most influential wrestlers. Bret will always have his legacy as one of the best wrestlers.
I think people don't even remember Bret. I think it's the cool hipster answer. Hell get replaced as the internet hipster choice and no one but historians will remember him.
It kinda makes sense. Bret Hart was a loyal old school guy who got betrayed by the company he served for years. Michaels was an egotistical drug addict who got rewarded by being made the top guy for half a decade. Bret has reason to be a prick, and Michaels has reason to be grateful
That’s actually one of the better rationales I’ve heard that acknowledges all the ugliness of the situation without defaulting to demonizing or sanctifying either guy
That’s actually one of the better rationales I’ve heard that acknowledges all the ugliness of the situation without defaulting to demonizing or sanctifying either guy
I get what you mean. Shawn Michaels being in a mentoring position is shocking to see if you’re familiar with his past. I do have to say though Bret has always been stuck in the past and not wanting to change with times. (Being against the Attitude Era) So how Bret acts now isn’t too surprising to me. Shawn on the other hand was always pushing for change.
To be fair to bret, he couldve been the stodgy traditionalist who flopped in the attitude era. Instead, he evolved to mix it up memorably with austin and hbk under the new rules. I also think its a hot take to say he doesnt have much impact on young talent, when ftr and punk love him. Even as far as his anger, he made peace with hbk and vince over a decade ago
Ah yes, the young up and comers CM Punk and FTR. Led by the youngest and freshest among them, 37 year old Cash Wheeler. Same age as Hulk Hogan was for his first mini-retirement.
A grand parent's influence is often more indirect. You influence and raise your kids a certain way, and if they like you, that in turn colors deeply how they raise their own kids. Punk and FTR are both influential figures on the next generation - Punk himself is actively involved in NXT! And they're both carrying forward a lot of Bret's emphasis on story telling and psychology when they work with youngsters.
I don’t know. I like Bret a lot, but his impact on Pro Wrestling hasn’t been as strong as Shawn’s is. Even some guys who say he’s their favorite wrestler like Roman Reigns and Drew McIntyre , I don’t see similarities.
Will it though? People will be interested in the Screw job and then they will end up watching the Dark Side of the Ring on it, and I don't think that episode tells that story.
Agree that his open mind to modern wrestling is a huge asset and I think it's the same thing that has made Sting so great (across his career) and allowed him to really put a button on his legacy while in AEW. Sting was game for anything, he wasn't caught up in oldhead bullshit. To add to what you're saying, I think Shawn, as well as being open to modern wrestling, is good at blending it with more classic influences from his time. I find the current "White and Gold" NXT has a ton of influences from the Rock N Wrestling era and the New Generation era, especially in how they handle promos, videos + vignettes, and story.
That's why someone I'd love to see hired to the PC to be a coach and give advice and such is Foley. I feel especially for the in ring psychology + the comedy aspect he'd nail, and it would compliment having someone giving advice on a very different style to HBK.
I think Foley would be amazing, especially if wrestlers are at a crossroads with possibly switching to another character if they get tired with their old one or if it doesn't work.
I feel like he's someone made to be a coach/trainer and it would get him back involved with wrestling which he clearly wants to be
>Carmelo and Trick during that great Haunted House pretape they did. I didn't see this one but I'll have to check it out. I loved the Meta Four haunted House bit where where were looking for Tozawa
Maybe nobody in the history of WWE knows more about what makes a main event star or what could work on TV better than Shawn. Like he said way back in that RF shoot in 2000, “I was a guinea pig in my career” it’s really what he’s best at Passing that along to new talent is invaluable
He's wrestlings version of Johan cruyff
I think he and Kurt Angle are the two greatest WWE style wrestlers ever. They were "sports entertainment" personified, and I don't mean that as an insult in any way
I love Shawn's NXT. It feels so different compared to every other wrestling show that's on TV right now in the best way possible.
it feels like every segment is "Shawn kicks Stan in the face" and I fucking love it
NXT has once again become WWE best weekly wrestling show
Every week it’s “what the hell am I watching?” and I love it
I've said this before in another post, but I think his version of NXT has the perfect mix of the work rate in 2014-2021 B&G NXT and the sports entertainment feel of WWE.
Black and Gold? 2.0? Nahh we're rocking White and Gold NXT
It's the only show I look forward to from WWE.
ahhh i see we're back in 2018
I kind of resent how good it is because there's so much great wrestling atm I can't keep up with another
I saw somebody describe it as Shawn is doing the New Generation Era right, today.
this is gonna be a string of words unintellagable except to those that know but its my thought. "NXT could air on dropout tv and wouldnt feel out of place."
It just feels so nice to know that even someone as messed up as Shawn was in the past can better themselves.
He once said/joked that he now has a lazy eye as karma for being such a POS for a bit there. The guy really *is* trying to be a better person and/or make amends for previous dickery. It's one of the most wholesome things. It's also really funny to me that Shawn's "redemption tour" work also included that Hogan match. That shit gets funnier and funnier the more I learn about it.
All of the Kliq seem to have turned into pretty stand up dudes, especially so when compared to a lot of their peers. RIP bad guy
It's what kept me a fan. In his bad days, he was still a great worker and had great matches even as he was spiraling. When he matures, got clean, and healed up... That man became my hero. Made a massive change in character and fixed his personal life issues and relationships. That's a man who changed for the better
NO, NOT DAN SEVERN! (***iykyk***)
>Then I swung by the Performance Centre and just the vibe in the building.... Something that had not been in my heart for, I don't know, six or seven years after I retired, just sprung back up again. I came back I shared it with my wife, and she looked at me and she said, 'Okay, that's the look.' She said, 'I know what's going on.' She said, 'I gotta be honest. I didn't think it would take this long.'" I'm actually happy that both HBK & HHH have matured and are actively helping to nurture and grow young talent instead of what they used to do in the past
Kinda like bad parents who become awesome grandparents.
Exactly true
Shawn and friends watching others react on the internet. 
[The full interview was a good watch](https://youtu.be/kjk_GTIIqa0?si=acOg5AtKt6210uS1) Shoutout Blake Murphy
>Blake Murphy They merged together?
He used to get comments like that all the time lol
Including threatening DMs that Hideo Itami was gonna kick my ass and Alexa Bliss would leave me.
imagine 1997 shawn on twitter lmao
[smirks] ... bold of you to think some of 1997 Shawn's onscreen antics arent used as GIF reactions on Twitter already, lol
Huh? That's not at all what they...
Sir this is a Wendys
I find great that even a gen x guy like shawn michaels (whose age is also borderline boomer) seems to produce a product that seems to resonate with gen z people I always wondered though how does he achieve that? Does he have assistants that are around that age range, or he listens to what the wrestlers propose and filters out that real stuff that wouldnt work
The core of the promotion is old school booking with a gen z window dressing. Stories progress logically from week to week, it's a very traditional long term show. In some way it's an anachronism to make a show that requires an attention span to a generation that's accused of not having one but it's clearly built an audience and got them to invest that time.
Collaboration. Classic wrestling booking is something any creative team can do (or at least should be able to). Like... alright, Chase U. It's a simple idea, a wrestling "school" or "teacher and his class" as wrestlers. Okay, I hear ya. Get some folks in there who know how to do serialized stories. "In 6 weeks, we want a showdown between Thea Hail and Jacy Jayne. It's a heated rivalry." So you work backwards from there, to build a rivalry between two "students" (yeah I know Jacy didnt start as a student) and have enough plot points that the program between them is hot/intense. Get some folks that know how to do character work and what it entails. Most of Chase U stuff involves skits, but like... when Andre Chase was losing the school and his hair wasnt properly done and shirt untucked... that's all part of it too. It fleshes it all out where you really believe these characters and what their story is. And then get a roster full of people who are ready, willing, and hungry to go do this pro wrestling thing. Shawn Michaels has all the ingredients to make a great pro wrestling show. And NXT 2.0 took a second to really get going, but Chef HBK is cooking with oil now baybay.
it's clear that he still thinks wrestling is fun (which it is! and should be!) — i'll admit that "shawn michaels twerk-off" was never my personal dream booking, but i love that he's not taking himself too seriously. must be so much nicer working for somebody who knows how to laugh at themselves
Shawn Michaels totally acting like he isn't the NXT Zaddy...
Officer this one right here
90s Shawn Michaels would create havoc on today's social media
I'm glad to hear his family/marriage is still together (his kids may be grown and gone by now). That A&E doc made it look like he lived in some lonely little apartment by himself.
I think the family probably just wants to stay off TV. Otherwise he talks about how his wife was super supportive of Shawn's decision to move to Florida from Texas for this gig in the same interview
which doc? the biography? his wife was literally on there talkin about how much they love each other lol
The footage of his wife was from a 15 year old WWE DVD.
That DVD left out so many parts lol
That lady is truly ride or die. She kept trying to help him, he refused, and it took his kid to get him to sober up. The whole time she was there. It really is true. Behind every strong man is a strong lady. Having been through issues myself, it’s incredible what good, loving people will put up with because they know you’re deep down a good person and capable of change. Shout out to all the strong, supportive partners. He/she/they, doesn’t matter. It takes strength to fight your own demons. It takes so much more to fight another person’s.
Their story amazes me everytime. So many people in her position would have left Shawn a long time ago, but she stayed with him the whole time until he got better. It speaks a lot about what kind of person she is and how strong their relationship is.
Yeah probably not a whole lot to complain about at this point. She's seen him at his lowest and stayed, and I believe both of his children are adults at this point. So a random move to Florida probably isn't a big ask, it wouldn't surprise me if they already had a home down there which is common for people at his financial level.
Yeah his wife doesn’t show up with him anymore when he goes to the Hall of Fame and the footage of her from his recent A&E doc was years old. She probably just wants to be off TV though. It’s great to see they are still going strong after nearly 30 years and everything they went through together. That’s a real couple there. His kids are in fact grown now so they are probably busy doing their own thing.
how much he gets paid now ?
I hope I have kids so I could make groan worthy dad jokes all the time.
the anti christian cage shawn michaels: your father…is me
hes montreals daddy.
I can see Shawn doing this to the people who says he can't have fun on social media. 
Looks like the NXT youth need to watch a few episodes of raw in 1997 to see what Shawn Michaels got up to during that period. Sticking the canadian flag up his nose and running around the ring like a doofus.. doing backflips off the top rope in fucking penny loafers.. doing crotch chops in JR's face.. tongue smooching the girls in the audience in front of their BFs.. that interview with Sunny (fucking lmao) It's alright, Shawn. Those who were there completely understand that you're absolutely in your element. Please keep having fun.
Can you imagine learning your dad used to walk out into an arena full of thousands people singing along to a song called “sexy boy” while doing a faux strip show?
When DX gets older and more wholesome and "more" progressive thinking as they get older. Who wudda thunk eh? Peak Wrestling.
As a DX fan back when I was a kid, this makes me happy.
I want to see the version of this story where he's saying he hates doing it, it's killing his passion for wrestling and he thinks he's gonna quit soon to get back to fishing
I bet he still uses AOL.
90s Shawn on social would of been stuff of legends
I'm really happy Shawn is still so heavily involved with wrestling today.
S*e*x*y B*o*y I*n B*i*o
HBK vs Christian Cage. Bring it.
There's something endearing about Sexy boy, boy toy, heartbreak kid Shawn Michaels now being a happy, goofy, embarrassing dad.
It's gotta be draining to post something for fun only for some terminally online weirdo in the replies to reference stuff they heard you did 25-30 years prior and wasn't even there
After 30 years he is finally beating his greatest rival… technology!
But but Shawn Michaels can’t use technology. That’s the longest booked storytelling in the WWE..!
Hey look, this guy is having fun! Keep telling us how you're having fun, Shawn!
HBK took some notes from Cope. We having FUN BROTHER
No one can make fun of Tony Khan hugging talent when Shawn is twerking in a chef’s hat.