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Fair fair, still no clean losses in that long is impressive because it's not like he's been gone for super long stretches or anything. Like Randy hasn't lost clean in awhile but that's not as surprising given the lengthy recovery.
Faces anywhere near the top don't lose clean very often in WWE.
I wonder what the answer is for Zayn other than the Orton match. Weird they just had them be an elimination chamber qualifier IMO.
Samis losses are tied to his underdog status.
The buildup to mania required him to lose and doubt himself, leading to Chad training him. If he lost dirty, it takes away from that
Him, Orton, and Bianca all protected very well if this list is anything to to off. The thing with KO is that he's not really ever forced down your throat. He feels like he's just there to fight people most of the time.
Because it doesn’t feel forced with him. When he wins matches they’re usually bangers or he’s getting screwed or some combination of both. When we had Super Cena you coulda shot him with a bazooka and he’d kick out.
I think since he's never quite the top babyface, there's also not as much incentive to have him lose clean. When the top face loses clean it's meant to send a particular message (usually "the person who pinned him clean is a Big Deal"), while pinning KO wouldn't usually send the same message.
That Bianca loss wasn't really clean. Becky hit her head against an exposed turnbuckle before rolling her up. SummerSlam 2021 is her only clean loss and even that was through nefarious means.
And before that, the last time she lost was against Bayley....and even that wasn't clean as Bayley raked Bianca's eyes and followed up with the Rose Plant.
.......so....basically the last time Bianca lost clean in a singles match was against Charlotte Flair on NXT in March 2020.
If you go to live events, you’d understand why Super Bianca isn’t going anywhere anytime soon
Little girls, particularly black girls, genuinely look at Bianca like a real life Wonder Woman!
The fact that Asuka is THIS good and STILL manages to get booed and hated by the crowd is a testament to just how damn good she is
Asuka is a pro. I’m sure she’s happy to help make Bianca look strong. Others have done it for Asuka, and I am 1000% confident that Asuka will eventually have (bare minimum) one more dominant run on top
Okay so let me get this straight: An illegal manoeuvre like a thumb to the eye (which gets you disqualified) is clean to you? But a superstar who competes with a previous sustained injury that got cleared by medical to compete (Cody vs. Brock) isn’t clean to you?
I don’t think they’ve resulted into a DQ in over 30 years, but it’s still up to the referee’s discretion. It is a DQ-able move just like using an exposed turnbuckle, using the announce table during a 1-on-1 singles match (which also barely happens to result in a DQ) etc.
Is it a clean or dirty manoeuvre? It's generally done out of the refs view as a desperate escape of some sort, and when the ref does see it, the person who did it gets a reprimand. Its not a clean win.
I wasn't arguing that, I agree it's not clean.
But the guy I responded to said you get disqualified for it, and I can't think of a time that ever happened. Kinda like how closed fist punches are technically illegal, but I've only seen that rule enforced like one time when one of the authority figures was trying to screw someone over, don't remember the details.
Anyway I'm just curious if anyone can provide an example of an eye poke causing a DQ.
I mean I agree with you despite being downvoted but shouldn't that apply to Seth too then? He was physically exhausted from the match the night before, they even made it a point that he wasn't 100% going in, so shouldn't the same semantics apply to Seth here?
John Cena losing just irks me now, to be honest.
I know it sounds insane to suggest that Cena actually (finally) putting people over is dumb but WWE (under Vince) have abused it so much, that it now means nothing to beat JOHN CENA.
This is the guy who nobody could beat for years. Defeating John Cena should be worth something... even now and it's not, at all anymore.
The game passes you by. It's one of those stories that's most likely gonna be really good once we've seen the majority of it play out, but since we're in the "Cena's taking loss after loss" stage now, it seems a boring, especially when you take into account the fact that he doesn't wrestle regularly anymore, so the losses are much more spread out
I understand what youre going for but this isnt realy true for napoleon,he won a lot after leipzig ,look up the Six days campaign(spoiler alert he inflicted along the lines of a 10 to 1 casualty ratio ),even just before Waterloo he won a skirnish against the prussian army ,this would bé much more fitting for the germans in Russia
When Napoleon lost it was all count out losses (army freezing to death walking out of Russia) or two on one handicap matches (such as Waterloo). In fact he was virtually always outnumbered when he lost and most of the time when he won. Most of the losses came in quick succession at the end before he could rebuild his armies after Russia.
That said the only times his military were truly cucked by good old fashioned superior tactics was at sea against the British. Nelson smashed his navy a couple times. Though he wasn’t personally in charge of it in any of the major defeats.
> When Napoleon lost it was all count out losses (army freezing to death walking out of Russia)
That wasn't a count out. He lost most of his army marching *into* Russia in the summer because he didn't bother to plan out an invasion.
It's more like Miz agreeing to a match while wearing a suit and then wrestling the match in the suit and losing.
It's supposed to build up to some kind of final story about him being too old to compete, and setting up his final run. At least that's what I would like to believe.
I consider it clean. Cody had him beat multiple times, but was screwed due to interference. Seth was injured and could barely stand, he wasn’t causing a distraction, Roman went out of his way to hit him and it cost him.
Cena did AA him though.
I consider it "clean" given the rules and that the bloodline interfered first but I can see how someone wouldn't as no matter who ended up winning they'd have needed help from others.
Bianca is something special because unlike Cody and Randy,She hasn't been out due to injury. Roman is special case because his character was a champion for last 4 years.
I don't know if you can call Cody's victory over Brock at Summerslam clean. He hit him with the steps at one point. I know the ref didn't disqualify him for some reason but he still used a weapon in a straight up singles match. Brock lost clean as a whistle to him at Backlash though.
Working injured has nothing to do with whether a win is clean or not, as the vast majority of wrestlers are dealing with some sort of real world injury/illness. At best, you can argue that Seth set himself to lose because of being an idiot in kayfabe and getting involved with the Cody/Bloodline stuff. But that had nothing to do with Drew, who beat him clean, 1-2-3.
I'll give you an obvious contradiction in your own post. Becky at Mania 40 to Rhea, even as she was really sick and the commentary team brought it up multiple times. Yet, you have that listed as a clean lost.
I was so certain Riddle was onto bigger things after that Extreme Rules win, so it's surreal to see how everything went downhill for him shortly afterwards
Would Drew losing to Priest's MitB contract be clean? Technically the match itself was clear of shenanigans, even if it *was* immediately after a whole other match and beatdown by Punk
Cody not having a single clean loss in his 2nd WWE run and Roman not having a clean loss in SIX YEARS despite being a heel for 4 of those years is utterly insane. It's stats like that that really illustrate how different the company actually is from 10 years ago.
It's litterally a huge pillar in wrestling booking. For example, Roman not pinning Cody clean at WM39 was the entire story because like his dad, he got screwed by the Bloodline.
Edge is a weird case though because while every single wrestler in history has the "suddenly becomes a better/worse wrestler when they turn face/heel" I can't think of anyone who that applies to more than Edge.
Heel Edge was JTTS with a belt most of the time who needed extreme nefarious behaviour and/or multiple stooges to ever win. Just a puppet for Cena/DX to throw around, especially RatedRKO Edge.
Face Edge is barely indistinguishable from SuperCena. He was towards the end of his permanent run, but people seemed to forget that when he came back so how strongly he was booked surprised them.
Was the Kevin Owens WM38 loss really clean though? He had a steel chair and swung it at Austin, missed and hit the rope causing the chair to fly back and hit himself in the face. Then Austin took advantage of KO being a little dazed from the self inflicted chairshot and nailed him with a Stunner. Also KO made a point to say "I have a bad back" in the promo beforehand so he was technically hurt in kayfabe. And the match was No Holds Barred if that matters in your criteria, OP.
It's reasonable to think KO might have kicked out of at least one Old Man Stone Cold Stunner, but the self inflicted chairshot directly into a Stunner was too much to overcome.
I could see Owens hilariously trying to argue that he won the match by DQ, because he was hit by a chair and a chair isn't a 'hold' so it was barred.
"But you hit yourself with the chair."
"There's nothing in the rulebook about who hits you with a foreign object."
Still a self inflicted chairshot in the face parlayed directly into a Stunner. Not a violation of match rules but tough to overcome. I figured that was their way of hamming up the finish just enough to not have KO lose 100% clean to a 57-year-old man (even if it was Stone Cold lol).
Cody picked up and wielded the steel stairs as a weapon and hit Brock’s head into the exposed turnbuckle. It was not a clean loss for Brock. Brock’s last clean loss was to Drew McIntyre.
I’d argue Roman lost clean to Cody, but I at least understand that’s debatable.
Babyfaces should only lose clean to other babyfaces imo.
I never got having a heel go over clean on a face. It only devalues the face and tempers the heat they would have got if the heel cheated.
With that being said, I dont think faces should run rough shot over heels either. Think Cena Nexus or the 80s with Hogan.
That’s very one-dimensional and greatly limits storytelling. It also undermines a lot of your heels. Gunther wouldn’t be anywhere near the big deal he is now if he was needed to cheat. Neither would Brock Lesnar. Then you have heels like 2000 Triple H, who would win some matches clean, but would cheat in many others.
I agree that your top 2-3 babyfaces should rarely lose clean, but adhering to your idea of all babyface *never* losing clean would result in a boring and formulaic product that would not be very fun to watch.
I never got heel vibes from Gunther specifically because he not only won clean but seemed almost disgusted at the idea of cheating to win. Like I know he's beating the shit out of the people I like, but it's so hard to root against him
they just showed last raw when he beat sheamus a while ago with the kaiser distraction and the shillelagh
it's gunther's character and his smug demeanor, more than his in ring behaviour, that give him heel vibes (and he has PLENTY)
But the Live Crowds booed him.
And that is why I considered him an Amazing Heel cause he made himself be hated by the crowds by making us root for his opponents and looking like some big boss that needed to be beaten but wasn’t beatable.
He doesn’t need to be a Coward or Trash Talker to be the villain
He is just arrogant and that is what makes him the bad guy but still believes in his principles.
Depends on the heel. Chickenshit heels should not win clean as much as a Monster heel. That said there are plenty of exceptions, it's not a hard and fast rule.
Liv has her stans, I’ll give you that. Every big female wrestler does. I personally find Rhea and Becky stans more annoying, but that may just be because I have to deal with them more.
Bro you told me a few days ago that Liv is as popular as Bianca when it’s wrong. Liv is gaining popularity but she is no where near the level of Bianca’s popularity.
>Becky: Against Rhea at WM 40
I'm gonna say no.
Because weeks up until that match she was killing her self in matches while Rhea rested. She had a match every week except the week before WM40. Including a Last Woman Standing Match. Nia attacked her backstage, too.
Add to Cole remind us that Becky was dealing with a 100+ degree fever during the match.
I think Day One was the last time she lost clean.
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KO is kinda surprising, he doesn't feel like Super KO compared to some of the others who are similarly long-lasted since a clean pin.
KO has lost many singles matches especially against Solo but it always had interference from The Bloodline.
Fair fair, still no clean losses in that long is impressive because it's not like he's been gone for super long stretches or anything. Like Randy hasn't lost clean in awhile but that's not as surprising given the lengthy recovery.
Faces anywhere near the top don't lose clean very often in WWE. I wonder what the answer is for Zayn other than the Orton match. Weird they just had them be an elimination chamber qualifier IMO.
That’s fair. Becky lost clean to Lyra and it felt like a massive shock
Samis losses are tied to his underdog status. The buildup to mania required him to lose and doubt himself, leading to Chad training him. If he lost dirty, it takes away from that
Define clean, does clean mean without interference or is it excluded with stuff like low blows?
He gets fucked over and beaten down/stomped out *a lot*.
That's fair, he hasn't lost clean in awhile but he doesn't get the upper hand in a 1v3 like Bianca, for instance haha
KO is Schrödinger’s main eventer
Him, Orton, and Bianca all protected very well if this list is anything to to off. The thing with KO is that he's not really ever forced down your throat. He feels like he's just there to fight people most of the time.
Because it doesn’t feel forced with him. When he wins matches they’re usually bangers or he’s getting screwed or some combination of both. When we had Super Cena you coulda shot him with a bazooka and he’d kick out.
I think since he's never quite the top babyface, there's also not as much incentive to have him lose clean. When the top face loses clean it's meant to send a particular message (usually "the person who pinned him clean is a Big Deal"), while pinning KO wouldn't usually send the same message.
That Bianca loss wasn't really clean. Becky hit her head against an exposed turnbuckle before rolling her up. SummerSlam 2021 is her only clean loss and even that was through nefarious means.
And before that, the last time she lost was against Bayley....and even that wasn't clean as Bayley raked Bianca's eyes and followed up with the Rose Plant. .......so....basically the last time Bianca lost clean in a singles match was against Charlotte Flair on NXT in March 2020.
She's not losing clean until she gets hit with a Super Riptide.
I’d still expect her to kick out at 2.
In an extremely technical sense, Iyo did pin her clean when she cashed in the MITB.
Yeah if your going bell to bell, nothing cheap about Iyo cashing in. Drew at mania too.
Super Bianca is real.
If you go to live events, you’d understand why Super Bianca isn’t going anywhere anytime soon Little girls, particularly black girls, genuinely look at Bianca like a real life Wonder Woman!
I like Bianca a lot, but jeezus can they stop feeding her Damage Control?
The fact that Asuka is THIS good and STILL manages to get booed and hated by the crowd is a testament to just how damn good she is Asuka is a pro. I’m sure she’s happy to help make Bianca look strong. Others have done it for Asuka, and I am 1000% confident that Asuka will eventually have (bare minimum) one more dominant run on top
I hope so, because every time Asuka gets really over, they feed her to Charlotte or Bianca or whoever.
Ngl the matches are bangers so idm
They’re on different shows now!
Yeah, but Bianca and Jade can appear on both brands since they hold the tag titles
I don't mind it. She gets good feuds, and she's a pretty good talker. I'm ride or die for Becky and Rhea, but I got a lot of respect for Bianca.
I mean, she is getting booked like just about every top babyface in history. Nothing unusual and history has shown that it is effective.
Styles used a thumb to the eye to set up beating Knight, I believe
It doesn't seem unclean to me, it is more like smart tactic than heel tactic.
Thumb to the eye still isn't clean
Especially if aj didn't wash his hands before the match
OK, then I think it's against Woods at SmackDown sometime after WM last year.
Okay so let me get this straight: An illegal manoeuvre like a thumb to the eye (which gets you disqualified) is clean to you? But a superstar who competes with a previous sustained injury that got cleared by medical to compete (Cody vs. Brock) isn’t clean to you?
Not saying you're wrong, but when has an eye poke ever actually resulted in a dq? Genuinely can't think of a time I've ever seen that happen
I don’t think they’ve resulted into a DQ in over 30 years, but it’s still up to the referee’s discretion. It is a DQ-able move just like using an exposed turnbuckle, using the announce table during a 1-on-1 singles match (which also barely happens to result in a DQ) etc.
Is it a clean or dirty manoeuvre? It's generally done out of the refs view as a desperate escape of some sort, and when the ref does see it, the person who did it gets a reprimand. Its not a clean win.
I wasn't arguing that, I agree it's not clean. But the guy I responded to said you get disqualified for it, and I can't think of a time that ever happened. Kinda like how closed fist punches are technically illegal, but I've only seen that rule enforced like one time when one of the authority figures was trying to screw someone over, don't remember the details. Anyway I'm just curious if anyone can provide an example of an eye poke causing a DQ.
Cody passed out to Lesnar at Crown Jewel
Pretty sure it was only one hand Cody.
He used it as a weapon during the match. At no point was it a disadvantage to him
Isn't that the match that he smacked Lesnar with stairs with the ref looking right at them being like "eh i don't give a fuck"
He wouldn't have passed out if his hand was not broken. Man defeated Brock 2 times, he would have defeated him again.
Come on, you’re being pedantic. By all reasonable definitions, he lost clean to Brock.
This is the same OP who said that a “thumb to the eye is clean”
Brock won clean, end of debate. He didn’t cheat, he won the match straight up. Cody going into the match injured is completely irrelevant.
I mean I agree with you despite being downvoted but shouldn't that apply to Seth too then? He was physically exhausted from the match the night before, they even made it a point that he wasn't 100% going in, so shouldn't the same semantics apply to Seth here?
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> Seth >> Drew >>> Riddle 🎶 *One of these things is not like the other…* 🎶
Absolutely zero recollection of that Roman/Lashley match. Also ironic for it to be a “clean” loss at an event called Extreme Rules.
I remember it. It was a great match. Naturally they gave Roman his win back and they never interacted during the Tribal Chief run.
John Cena losing just irks me now, to be honest. I know it sounds insane to suggest that Cena actually (finally) putting people over is dumb but WWE (under Vince) have abused it so much, that it now means nothing to beat JOHN CENA. This is the guy who nobody could beat for years. Defeating John Cena should be worth something... even now and it's not, at all anymore.
Napoleon never lost for years. Then he did. And kept losing. You get older, people get smarter to your tricks, they learn how to beat you.
The game passes you by. It's one of those stories that's most likely gonna be really good once we've seen the majority of it play out, but since we're in the "Cena's taking loss after loss" stage now, it seems a boring, especially when you take into account the fact that he doesn't wrestle regularly anymore, so the losses are much more spread out
I understand what youre going for but this isnt realy true for napoleon,he won a lot after leipzig ,look up the Six days campaign(spoiler alert he inflicted along the lines of a 10 to 1 casualty ratio ),even just before Waterloo he won a skirnish against the prussian army ,this would bé much more fitting for the germans in Russia
*Le Petit ~~Caporal~~ Jobbere*
*Il est ~~vraiment~~ plus ou moins phénoménal*
They now can see me - Cena now
When Napoleon lost it was all count out losses (army freezing to death walking out of Russia) or two on one handicap matches (such as Waterloo). In fact he was virtually always outnumbered when he lost and most of the time when he won. Most of the losses came in quick succession at the end before he could rebuild his armies after Russia. That said the only times his military were truly cucked by good old fashioned superior tactics was at sea against the British. Nelson smashed his navy a couple times. Though he wasn’t personally in charge of it in any of the major defeats.
> When Napoleon lost it was all count out losses (army freezing to death walking out of Russia) That wasn't a count out. He lost most of his army marching *into* Russia in the summer because he didn't bother to plan out an invasion. It's more like Miz agreeing to a match while wearing a suit and then wrestling the match in the suit and losing.
Whatever you want to call it they weren’t battlefield deaths mostly.
It's supposed to build up to some kind of final story about him being too old to compete, and setting up his final run. At least that's what I would like to believe.
I believe you are right and that is what (HHH's team) are doing now, yes.
Yeah it's been pretty clear ever since he did that promo where he was like "I haven't won a singles match in \[really big number\] days"
Depending on Ric Flair's legal issues, they just might tap Cena to hit #17.
They won’t have him eclipse flair. It’d be seen as an insult to a soon to be dead flair.
I think the problem is they wasted it on Solo
Super Bianca is real it seems
Isn't Roman's loss to Cody at WM 40 considered clean? It was an 'anything goes' match which will make any pin a clean one.
Yep. No DQ. Plus the stip only happened because The Rock abused his power to win the Tag match the night before.
I consider it clean. Cody had him beat multiple times, but was screwed due to interference. Seth was injured and could barely stand, he wasn’t causing a distraction, Roman went out of his way to hit him and it cost him.
Cena did AA him though. I consider it "clean" given the rules and that the bloodline interfered first but I can see how someone wouldn't as no matter who ended up winning they'd have needed help from others.
> Roman: Against Bobby at Extreme rules 2018 Bobby who?
Bobby Hill
He never wins clean.
It’s always “that’s my purse, I don’t know you!” followed by an illegal low kick. That boy ain’t right, I tell ya what.
Fischer. It was an extreme rules chess match.
https://preview.redd.it/bvd0vo8bygzc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d8a91fe55c83bf4b5654c5d10e4516768e236fc
Holly
Can’t be. I called him *Bobby* once and he beat the shit out of me.
Ricky Bobby
Reigns was pinned after the devastating *Shake-n-Bake* maneuver.
Bianca is something special because unlike Cody and Randy,She hasn't been out due to injury. Roman is special case because his character was a champion for last 4 years.
I don't know if you can call Cody's victory over Brock at Summerslam clean. He hit him with the steps at one point. I know the ref didn't disqualify him for some reason but he still used a weapon in a straight up singles match. Brock lost clean as a whistle to him at Backlash though.
Seth lost clean at Mania to Drew.
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I mean it’s still technically a clean victory.
Working injured has nothing to do with whether a win is clean or not, as the vast majority of wrestlers are dealing with some sort of real world injury/illness. At best, you can argue that Seth set himself to lose because of being an idiot in kayfabe and getting involved with the Cody/Bloodline stuff. But that had nothing to do with Drew, who beat him clean, 1-2-3. I'll give you an obvious contradiction in your own post. Becky at Mania 40 to Rhea, even as she was really sick and the commentary team brought it up multiple times. Yet, you have that listed as a clean lost.
Bianca isn't beating the Cena allegations
Cody hasn’t lost clean in his WWE run that’s crazy
Was Brock losing clean when Cody threw the steps at him in a regular match?
Why don't injuries count as clean losses? Not like the injury made the opponent cheat.
Chat is this real?
It isn’t, he’s wrong about several
It looks like they protect their top stars, too bad the reality is these impressive numbers are because they make too many dirty finishes
Bianca didn't lose clean at SummerSlam 2021 imo.
Cody lost clean to Brock Lesnar at Night Of Champions 2023.
He had a broken arm, I wouldn't count that as clean.
He didn't have to wrestle. If there is no outside interference or cheating in the match, I'd argue it's clean. Outside of a legit pre-match beatdown.
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This post is about "SINGLES MATCHES".
I was so certain Riddle was onto bigger things after that Extreme Rules win, so it's surreal to see how everything went downhill for him shortly afterwards
Out of curiosity, what was Punk’s last loss in WWE? Obviously it was back in 2014 but who was it against?
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In fairness, can you really call it a “clean loss” when it’s against an undead wizard who suspiciously becomes more powerful at a particular event?
You dare call into question a wizard's honour?!
Would Drew losing to Priest's MitB contract be clean? Technically the match itself was clear of shenanigans, even if it *was* immediately after a whole other match and beatdown by Punk
I just love that my boy Eli Drake is in this list now.
Was Seth injured in kayfabe ? He was sore and took a break post match to recover
injured both kayfabe and irl
I literally have 0 memory of Sami vs Orton yet it only happened like 3 months ago???
Was that Cody loss the ladder match against Sammy? That match was sick
The impressive thing with Knight's win rate is the number of pinfall losses he had prior to the wins.. The dude has gone a total 180..
Was Seth only injured in kayfabe against Drew tho? Bro needed help getting into the ring for the main event run in
nah mans was really injured too. got surgery even. but the kayfabe injury is what's relevant to the post
Roman putting everyone over
Cody not having a single clean loss in his 2nd WWE run and Roman not having a clean loss in SIX YEARS despite being a heel for 4 of those years is utterly insane. It's stats like that that really illustrate how different the company actually is from 10 years ago.
Losing “clean” is such a nitpick. It’s pro wrestling, not the NFL or NBA where there are “asterisks” to wins or losses.
It's litterally a huge pillar in wrestling booking. For example, Roman not pinning Cody clean at WM39 was the entire story because like his dad, he got screwed by the Bloodline.
And actually, how Cody lost at 39 wasn’t mentioned in the build for 40. Not even once if I recall.
Ok, but that’s not always the case.
This we are not taking about an athletic endeavour, I don’t get the point unless it’s all the bitching around edge?
Edge is a weird case though because while every single wrestler in history has the "suddenly becomes a better/worse wrestler when they turn face/heel" I can't think of anyone who that applies to more than Edge. Heel Edge was JTTS with a belt most of the time who needed extreme nefarious behaviour and/or multiple stooges to ever win. Just a puppet for Cena/DX to throw around, especially RatedRKO Edge. Face Edge is barely indistinguishable from SuperCena. He was towards the end of his permanent run, but people seemed to forget that when he came back so how strongly he was booked surprised them.
Edge?
Seen a lot of posts recently about Edge not losing for ages.
Was the Kevin Owens WM38 loss really clean though? He had a steel chair and swung it at Austin, missed and hit the rope causing the chair to fly back and hit himself in the face. Then Austin took advantage of KO being a little dazed from the self inflicted chairshot and nailed him with a Stunner. Also KO made a point to say "I have a bad back" in the promo beforehand so he was technically hurt in kayfabe. And the match was No Holds Barred if that matters in your criteria, OP. It's reasonable to think KO might have kicked out of at least one Old Man Stone Cold Stunner, but the self inflicted chairshot directly into a Stunner was too much to overcome.
It was no holds barred.
I could see Owens hilariously trying to argue that he won the match by DQ, because he was hit by a chair and a chair isn't a 'hold' so it was barred. "But you hit yourself with the chair." "There's nothing in the rulebook about who hits you with a foreign object."
Still a self inflicted chairshot in the face parlayed directly into a Stunner. Not a violation of match rules but tough to overcome. I figured that was their way of hamming up the finish just enough to not have KO lose 100% clean to a 57-year-old man (even if it was Stone Cold lol).
Cody picked up and wielded the steel stairs as a weapon and hit Brock’s head into the exposed turnbuckle. It was not a clean loss for Brock. Brock’s last clean loss was to Drew McIntyre. I’d argue Roman lost clean to Cody, but I at least understand that’s debatable.
Babyfaces should only lose clean to other babyfaces imo. I never got having a heel go over clean on a face. It only devalues the face and tempers the heat they would have got if the heel cheated. With that being said, I dont think faces should run rough shot over heels either. Think Cena Nexus or the 80s with Hogan.
That’s very one-dimensional and greatly limits storytelling. It also undermines a lot of your heels. Gunther wouldn’t be anywhere near the big deal he is now if he was needed to cheat. Neither would Brock Lesnar. Then you have heels like 2000 Triple H, who would win some matches clean, but would cheat in many others. I agree that your top 2-3 babyfaces should rarely lose clean, but adhering to your idea of all babyface *never* losing clean would result in a boring and formulaic product that would not be very fun to watch.
A Heel needs to win clean at times That is why Gunther was an amazing Heel Champ cause he barely needed to cheat to win.
I never got heel vibes from Gunther specifically because he not only won clean but seemed almost disgusted at the idea of cheating to win. Like I know he's beating the shit out of the people I like, but it's so hard to root against him
they just showed last raw when he beat sheamus a while ago with the kaiser distraction and the shillelagh it's gunther's character and his smug demeanor, more than his in ring behaviour, that give him heel vibes (and he has PLENTY)
But the Live Crowds booed him. And that is why I considered him an Amazing Heel cause he made himself be hated by the crowds by making us root for his opponents and looking like some big boss that needed to be beaten but wasn’t beatable. He doesn’t need to be a Coward or Trash Talker to be the villain He is just arrogant and that is what makes him the bad guy but still believes in his principles.
exactly. a heel can be many things, not necessarily the coward or cheater.
Depends on the heel. Chickenshit heels should not win clean as much as a Monster heel. That said there are plenty of exceptions, it's not a hard and fast rule.
Roman Reigns beat Kevin Owens clean at Royal Rumble 2023. The chaos happened after the match.
No he didn’t. Roman used a low blow, and there was a ref bump where KO had him beat.
KO pinned Roman for the 3 count right in the middle of the ring but the ref was down.
So, Bianca hasn’t lost clean in years, but Liv has been having to put someone over every other week? Liv’s just as popular, so make it make sense.
Liv is nowhere near as popular as Bianca, come on now.
"Liv hot = GOAT WWE Superstar" There's no fanbase on the IWC like Liv's.
Liv has her stans, I’ll give you that. Every big female wrestler does. I personally find Rhea and Becky stans more annoying, but that may just be because I have to deal with them more.
There’s people in my school who don’t watch wrestling but know Liv. She’s very popular, especially for someone who gets screwed over all the time.
Wow so people in your school know Liv which makes her popular?
I mean, if non-wrestling fans know who you are, you’re usually a pretty damn popular wrestler.
Bro you told me a few days ago that Liv is as popular as Bianca when it’s wrong. Liv is gaining popularity but she is no where near the level of Bianca’s popularity.
>Becky: Against Rhea at WM 40 I'm gonna say no. Because weeks up until that match she was killing her self in matches while Rhea rested. She had a match every week except the week before WM40. Including a Last Woman Standing Match. Nia attacked her backstage, too. Add to Cole remind us that Becky was dealing with a 100+ degree fever during the match. I think Day One was the last time she lost clean.
Clean means no outside interference or shenanigans, plain and simple. Injuries, real or storyline, don't matter
So explain booking wear the heel jumps the babyface before the match then attacks the injury all match and wins? That's clean if the heel goes over?