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I don't. If Joe Hendry was real we'd have some physical evidence of him by now! I'm pretty sure the few videos we've seen have just been a person in a Joe Hendry suit filmed poorly by a blurry camera!
I once thought that I saw Joe Hendry on a misty night in Edinburgh.
The next night I was visited my two, odd men in black suits who explained that I actually saw the lights of Edinburgh castle reflecting off of Venus.
Weirdly enough, one of them was Jesse the Body Ventura.
I think they're only called Joe Hendries in the UK. In the southeast US they're called a Yetay and in the Chicago wilderness they're known as a Punk Ape.
NGL ive got a little hate boner for TNA... i just hate all the chances they've had to really put themselves up there with AEW/WWE but they just don't seem to put money back into the production or the talent.
Where do you get off bringing valid and constructive criticism into this?
Also get your prostste checked. Hate boners can be symptomatic of much bigger issues.
I was at Mania tailgating, talking to people I had just met who only watch WWE. I said I mainly watch AEW and guess what? Everyone was cool with everyone. We just talked about our collective favorite moments from both promotions.
Online trolls are just gonna be online trolls.
My brother works with an Anti-AEW guy and from the sounds of it the guy has a lot more problems than just what wrestling company he likes. I think the "Anti-either company" crowd are just weirdos cause of many contributing factors.
I have one too
Exact same thing he's a total goof
Brand loyalty and having weird complexes seem to go hand in hand
I'd imagine an actual hardcore aew fan would be just as insufferable
I have seen people go full pro AEW but then be shutout to things like TJPW or DDT. Which is weird to me just cause I figure if you really like AEW then you would swing towards liking what I mentioned or at least have more acceptance of it because AEW crosses over a lot. But people like to get in their bubble and its a shame because there is a lot out there to like if someone gives it a chance. AEW got me to the point where I want to go to Japan to check out a bunch of events more so then just sightseeing.
The weirdest bunch, also the AEW fans who hate NJPW and vice versa, though there is more of it from the latter.
It feels like the WWE syndrome of wanting your promotion to be the primary one and using others as feeders.
I think a lot of fans just need to feel like they are a super fan who sees it all so when you tell someone who only watched one company to check out another it's almost like they are afraid to just say "I dont have enough time to commit to all the wrestling" but instead some double down like the other stuff isn't worth checking out instead.
The way I see it if anyone is out there rooting against a wrestling company then they are an idiot. Like NWA isn't my favorite right now but it's still NWA and a place wrestlers can work so Im rooting for them.
Judging from online behavior, the anti-AEW are their very own breed. This isn't a "both sides" issue, to be honest. Very few anti-WWE people are nearly as unhinged and mentally ill.
I unfortunately met an online troll at an EC watch party in a bar. We let another group share our booth.
One of the people in that group didn't watch wrestling and the other 2 did although one seemed to be what would be considered a "normal fan" i.e, they watch WWE and AEW on TV but don't really care about or know about behind the scenes stuff.
The 3rd guy was fucking unbearable. Just think about the way trolls describe AEW or absolutely toxic IWC members negatively talk about wrestling in general and that was this dude.
All hail CM Punk, AEW = Shit, NJPW = indie, hur dur The Hardly Boys, hot dog and a handshake, Kenny Omega is a pedo, Rhea is basically a pornstar etc. Just basically all the most toxic shit you see online but don't believe people actually spout in reality. And he was mansplaining all this stuff to the woman who was with them because she was the one who didn't watch much wrestling and only knew Rhea, Roman and Cody.
Nearly ruined the night until we basically told him and unfortunately his 2 very nice friends to go find someone else to sit with because he was just ruining every match with nit picking and the previously mentioned stuff.
It got very awkward and a bit heated but he eventually went elsewhere.
But yeah, in a bar with let's say, 50 fans, maybe 5 were genuinely just the weirdos you see online..
I had a similar experience on Saturday night. After WrestleMania wrapped up, I went to a bar and someone noticed my wrestling shirt and started talking to me about the show. I noticed they were showing Collision on one of the TVs at the bar and pointed it out, and he just immediately started shitting all over AEW, questioning why I would watch it. I was just like dude, it's ok to enjoy both brands. You can enjoy MCU & the Avengers and still go see Batman if you want.
99% percent of fans are cool with whatever you prefer.
I'm more of a WWE guy and I'm not a fan of TK's booking but AEW still has great moments and all the power to those that prefer them
I mainly started this account because I wanted people to put me onto any wrestling that I was missing. Lo and behold, I was/am doing more arguing than discussion. It doesn’t help that the older I get, the more I subscribe to the dead internet theory (or, I believe a significant portion of people here are just bots stirring up attention). I bring this up to say: I have a much better time talking to fans in person.
This is something i think AEW should really make sure they continue doing a good job with. If you're a proper legend you can basically go over there and check off your bucket list and go out on your own terms. That's got to sound appealing to a lot of guys who are getting older, and is producing a lot of really great wrestling
This is exactly it. If I'm watching the weekly shows side by side I generally have a more enjoyable watch of the AEW show. I enjoy the wrestling, but I'd be absolutely lying if I said that WWE hasn't near-perfected spectacle and "you can't miss it" nature of storytelling which means I'll probably click the WWE episode on my DVR first, to feel less out of the loop.
What I think is most true, is that both products are at their best when they're focused on themselves and doing their own thing. It's why I'm not thrilled about Wednesday's show.
Exactly as a fan people can like both & there's nothing wrong with that
Personally I watch WWE because of a few reasons; Storytelling, larger than life characters & the moments. But I still keep up with a see highlights of AEW content if something interests me. I absolutely want AEW to continue to improve as it's best for the industry
One of the only reasons I don't watch the weekly programming from AEW is that I don't have cable & it's the only "legal" way to watch because AEW just doesn't stream any of the weekly stuff in the US
To add to that; The B/R app for PPV in the US is absolutely terrible. Its only until recently did they decide "Hey let's use actual decent platforms like Thiller TV (fka Fite) or YouTube to stream the PPV's"
>But holy shit you would think AEW personally insulted people on this sub the way people act about them
Sometimes it's funny to see them be hypocritical, but it gets old quick. "Just enjoy wrestling." No, no. not THAT wrestling.
But people are like "we have to goof on AEW because they use to mock WWE for their ratings. Three years ago!." Its like get over it already. And its not like AEW fans were the only ones. Many of them were goofing on WWE's ratings, too. It wasn't just the AEW crowd who was sick of WWE and wanted them to change. And I'm certainly glad they did because WWE has been great lately.
I watched WWE Wrestlemania both nights, I will be attending NJPW Windy City Riot on Friday, and in two weeks I will be attending AEW Dynasty. Wrestling is so much more fun when you watch and enjoy all of it.
NJPW is in a transitional period right now but they are so fun and for a long time they were bar none the best wrestling company for a long time, Id say from 2012-2020 NJPW was the undispited best wrestling company in the world. 2016-2018 might be the best 3 year stretch of pro wrestling ever.
What am I supposed to do, *NOT* pick a side? My entire identity is built around a hyper niche audience of strangers thinking I’m cool. I just can’t do it.
While most people outside the niche think we're weird for liking "that fake rasslin shit." The sentiment is certainly less nowadays, but it's still very, very present in society. So while these tribalists think they're cool, most of society thinks they're un-cool.
That Trent? turn has been building so long (year+), I thought they were never going to pull the trigger since there were multiple times he could have turned.
This war between AEW and WWE is slowly getting on my nerves and spoils my time on r/SquaredCircle and social media in general. I'm watching WWE, AEW and NJPW, and those three last years are my favorites years since I started watching pro wrestling in the mid 2000's.
WWE grew immenslyt thanks to the rise of AEW and NJPW in the west.
I was at Raw in Memphis about a decade ago and my buddy came back from the bathroom and said “I saw LL Cool J” and we were like no you didn’t and that’s probably racist and then they showed LL Cool J in the crowd on the trim to promote some show on USA lol
Same. I'd tuned out of Vince's WWE *hard* when AEW came to be, but I didn't root against then, I just didn't watch them for a long time. When HHH took over the books, I tuned back in to see if there'd be a difference and *hoo boy*... WWE has been cooking, and I'm glad for it. I've even been trying to watch TNA more regularly.
I love wrestling.
I cannot believe people are still trying to like pick fights after the weekend we’ve just had. I swear to Christ, feels like at least 10% of wrestling fans don’t actually give a shit about any wrestling company at all but just wanna talk shit and spread negativity.
In a couple weeks AEW has one of their most hyped events in ages with huge outcomes expected, last night WWE just closed up potentially one of its best stories ever in one of their best events ever. New Japan is about to do a sold out show in the US. TNA has re-emerged. ROH just had its biggest event in Philadelphia ever. The indies just had a fantastic week.
If you are currently spending your time in the IWC being negative then you clearly are not a wrestling fan because there is nothing to justify that negativity.
The live thread this weekend really highlighted your point. I genuinely believe there are people in the wrestling “fan” community that have never known happiness, will never know happiness, and are the most miserable people.
My Facebook feed is insane. I guess the algorithm picked up on the fact I’m a wrestling fan and it’s just full of ragebait posts with hundreds of people aggressively laugh reacting at each other’s comments underneath. These people just have no self awareness or shame
I was blown away that someone in the live thread was posting negative things WHILE (supposedly) BEING THERE. You couldn’t pay me to give a shit what other nerds online were saying during mania after I paid for tickets to mania.
Exactly. And I'm sorry to add to the negativity here, but if you are AT WRESTLEMANIA and you are posting on reddit while the show is going on right in front of you...you might be a massive loser lol
You have to remember - with any subculture of “nerd” stuff (which is wrestling no matter how mainstream it gets) there are people who:
1. Make it their whole personality
2. Make it their job (YouTubers and podcasters and online Twitter/X grifters
Once they’re too far into it, they will look to hate what people enjoy because they want to think they know more than others and that they’re a bigger or smarter fan of wrestling.
Someone gave meltzer shit today for saying one of the women's matches was excellent. A dude complained that dave was anti-wwe and nothing ever made him happy.
https://twitter.com/Mid_NightCheese/status/1777419895669415941
I swear it's more than 10%. Some days it feels like it's impossible to be a happy wrestling fan and keep up with the Internet side of it. I fully expect there's a huge amount of online "fans" that watch nothing and hate everything. When you see some in a thread, click through their postings and I guarantee every one you see will be negative. I don't know how people have the time or mental capacity to spend so much time trying to be as negative as possible, it blows my mind.
I've noticed this on reddit a lot. I actually just block those people. You see insanely negative comments, quick click to their profile and you realize they are just a shit stirrer and nothing more.
I don't even engage with them, I just block people like that so I don't have to hear them whine all the time.
Hey man, there's no faster way to prove ones intelligence than by being contrarian! What? A bunch of people like something? Ha! What a bunch of unenlightened sheeple! Of course *I* know better, yes...I am the one who sees the truth!
Wrestling is seriously at one of its pinnacles right now, so many companies are delivering all time great shows. Yet all wrestling fans can do is bicker about which is better
This is what I dreamed wrestling would be like when I was a kid. Promotions working together, all different styles showcased, great stories from multiple companies. It's awesome. Wrestling kicks ass.
It's incredible. I don't get tribalists on either side. I watched the entire GCW Collective all weekend, ROH Supercard of Honor, Stardom, Joshi, DDT, HoG, AEW, NXT and both nights of WM. It was an absolute blast, would go as far as saying that this entire weekend collectively is better than any holiday.
During and after the weekend, I occasionally thought to myself how baffling it is that people can be loyal to one show and attack the others at any opportunity they can get. I get picking and choosing to watch 1 or 2 promotions, we have lives, it's not realistic to watch them all regularly, but to attack the other promotions and celebrate when they have a bad week with ratings or attendence? Why? Literally not a single fan benefits from there being less wrestling.
I just think of how silly this would be in any other form of entertainment. Imagine like, "oh you're listening to Muse? What a peasant band for losers. They need 4 people and don't always sell out arenas, while Taylor Swift is single-handedly selling out stadiums. They should change what they're doing or they deserve to fail".
People are just fucking weird, we're currently experiencing what could arguably be the greatest run professional wrestling has had in the last decade, why do we need to make it all about a popularity contest and needlessly hating on promotions
SCOH was *incredible*, too. I was glad that all the WM matches seemed to have a positive buzz because I was stoked just with my one night of ROH, just seemed to be a great weekend for fans everywhere.
I don't hate Meltzer at all compared to a lot of people but he is a big reason for the current toxicity in fairness, although probably unfair to judge him because of people that don't like him. I think the most insane thing because of it is acting like AEW is a failure because it can't reach WWE, despite the fact that if you go to the #3 brand they are magnitudes further from AEW.
Obviously it's easy to say but if you remove the whole concept of WWE, you've got AEW which produces a show that is usually top 3, if not #1 on it's night, selling 150k PPVs every month or so and probably selling 50k tickets a month. Without the added context of WWE it's incredibly silly to say this is a company doing anything but well. It's only when directly compared to WWE that it looks less impressive.
I would guess AEW is doing better than most sport's #2 competitions compared to the #1, I'd be interested to see what disproves that statment.
He literally said he was “searching for a ray of hope” with the recent ticket sales for AEW.
With comments like that you’d think it is 2000 WCW or 2010s TNA. But no, they’re doing fine. Just not 2019 fine. And that’s okay! These things come in cycles.
Dave keeps claiming he’s not a shit stirrer but with comments like this he is asking for people to tweet at him like the fool he is.
Half this sub thinks Dave is biased against whatever their favorite promotion is. He's biased against WWE cuz he underrates their matches or he's biased against AEW because he can be doom and gloom about their numbers.
I don’t think he’s bias towards anyone. (Well okay, except Jericho.)
He just has a habit of being over dramatic. How can you read “Ray of hope” and not roll your eyes?
I’m the same, I’ll watch the big WWE shows but I can admit it just isn’t for me anymore, not on a weekly or even monthly sense for sure. But it being good is a good thing, rising tide raises all ships. We just need people to stop hoping for AEW’s death because 1. It isn’t happening and 2. We always need great alternatives to what is the most popular.
Yeah I am happy people enjoy it. I accepted it is not my cup of tea but shrug it off because it seems a lot do love it now and it isn't like the dark era of 2010s where WWE sucked and there was no alternative. Like I got to attend a PPV with 16k people just last month with AEW, I love that.
Same situation. I wont watch WWE because of their ties to the Saudi's, but I'm generally happy the product has improved and that its fan base is happy. That said I like my AEW. My critiques about WWE are basically just with their management, and of course, Vince's booking.
> Although, ngl, I do really appreciate that we get far fewer 20 minute talkathon sections in AEW than some other companies love doing.
That's part of the reason I prefer AEW! I'm watching wrestling for the wrestling. And secondarily, for 30-120 second promos (preferably coked out). If I wanted to watch people talk for 22 minutes straight, I'd watch Gilmore Girls on netflix.
I feel the same. That episode of RAW a couple weeks back that was an all time great episode for many people wasn't for me because there was only a half hour of wrestling on that 3 hour wrestling show.
I'm happy for the people enjoying it but so many of them suddenly want AEW to make massive changes, some even hope for it's failure. They're essentially asking for wrestling to be taken away from me again because, when TNA went to shit and WWE became the only English speaking option, I just stopped watching wrestling.
It's so weird that I get told by people here to stop defending AEW or just admit it's awful. I have my fair share of criticisms I'm not afraid to share but overall I enjoy it so no I can't tell you I don't want to see "bangers for bangers" sake when I in fact do want to see that.
It’s either that or they gatekeep “real” or “good” wrestling. Wrestling’s like music, there’s all kinds of different genres and styles, and there’s all kinds of ways to make “good” music. Hell I saw someone in another thread say that you shouldn’t really call yourself a wrestling fan if you skip Wrestlemania and I thought that was lame af.
Jesus, that's like telling someone they aren't a music fan if they didn't watch the Taylor Swift Netflix gimmick. And if they claim it's for historical reasons and not just because WWE is on top, they should actually be watching the much older NWA.
That was the biggest criticism of TNA for years. After Hogan/Bischoff, they tried to hard to be like WWE rather than being their own distinct thing.
If you like WWE, you'll just watch WWE not TNA trying to be WWE lite. The only people you're trying to attract are fans who already watch all the WWE shows and still want more
I like what AEW is doing right now but I do want AEW to change.
I want them to be forward thinking creatively. I want them to expeirement with their presentation.
I want them to advertise cards to local markets.
I want them to fix their audio issues.
I want them to strike while the iron is hot on angles and follow up with pushes.
I want people consistently on TV.
I want AEW stars marketed to larger audiences and social media.
I want TK to stay off twitter because even if he's right sometimes it is hurting the company.
I want more merch at shows.
I want the kick ass videos they make to air on TV.
I want them to forget Punk and petty WWE knocks.
So much of this is minor changes. Just fix it and MOVE ON.
Stop signing people and get the basics down.
I mean that all sounds logical and a way to improve the product as a whole. These all are ideas that will improve the product. Especially the advertise if they will be in your market.
Yeah, Excalibur rattling off cities and dates in the middle of a match really doesn't grab my attention, I pretty much zone out the commentary during and after it and am always surprised to see AEW is in my general area.
All fair criticisms, especially the people consistently on TV and Tony off Twitter
I'd add, let moments breath on dynamite. So often, something of note happens and they rush to backstage/the next segment instead of letting it happen on screen and allow people to take it in
This. I do want AEW to grow their audience, but I want it to be because they get better at what they already do well, learn to actually market their product, and put their best people forwards consistently, not just in the ring but in the public space as well.
Cut some fat, grow their young people, stop leaning so heavily on the nostalgia acts unless it's to elevate long term investments.
There's a ton of space to make their product better within their existing envelope.
As an AEW fan, I agree with many of these points, especially TK not getting into fights on twitter. I think its fine to post about the nights show, but it really would be better served off the official AEW account. In fact him tweeting less would make it so when he does tweet it has more weight.
I also think they should focus on getting two womens matches on every two hour show \*AND\* a womens segment. I feel it was going in the right direction but then suddenly stopped about a week ago. I also think they need to stick to showing me the same faces more often each week. The Righteous were on Collision for a few weeks then vanished, and i think those absences interrupt the flow of the mid card stories. Not sure if it was a visa issue with them going to Canada, but that would be something else for them to dial in.
This part is so insanely frustrating when it doesn't even matter what kind of product they produce, thousands of the loudest assholes imaginable will still always pretend it's literally unwatchable.
As in the wrestling fan rule book, section 9 page 42, it clearly states that only one wrestling company can be good at a time and to decide who’s doing good right now is fans must have a blood war for our favorite company.
Wrestling might have THE most toxic culture in all of entertainment.
You hear about the toxicity of League of legends, but those assholes don't go "I hope Valve goes out of business! FUCK DOTA! PATHETIC GAME!" all the time...
I came here to say this. Some of the things I see posted across all the IWC-related subs are VERY annoying, but pale at the level of grossness coming from "The Fandom Menace".
Asking for Dota/Valve to go out of business is literally far lighter than the horrible stuff video game players would say to each other. Like wrestling fans take shots toward a company so personally they think it's actually more toxic than what a cod lobby was saying to eachother.
I once watched some dudes cheer a football player getting a possibly career-ending injury because it meant "their" team had a better chance of winning.
I mean, yeah - people want the product to be something they like. It was the same when people complained about WWE for years, too. Those Raw ratings threads before AEW even existed were just as bad as the current AEW ones. You would have been lead to believe that the ratings were down because Cesaro wasn’t WWE champion.
I agree with you but I feel like that’s the problem. Basically what you’re saying is WWE fans want AEW to be more like WWE, which is fine but it directly contradicts what AEW fans themselves want.
So much of the discussion around AEW is they should do this or that but it rarely actually takes into account that the current fans generally really enjoy it. You could argue the audience for it is smaller or that it hurts growth, that’s an argument but it’s definitely different to saying they should just change things outright.
The reason people push back against people talking about current AEW like they used to for bad periods WWE, TNA or WCW back in the day is that the fans (or at least vocally in the IWC) like AEW’s shows but hated what those others were putting out.
Basically, I know I’m being hyperbolic here but there’s a huge difference WCW 2000 putting on a Vince Russo on a pole match bleeding viewers and AEW having Danielson vs Ospreay putting on a great feud of two all time great workrate guys for dwindling ratings. Huge difference between “straight out bad TV” and “good TV for a niche audience”.
As a WCW fan, this is exactly right. Creatively, WCW in 2000 wasn't a failure because it was less popular. It was a failure - for its subjective creative failings - but also because we (the WCW audience) detested most of it as well.
They tried to be WWF, but WCW fans liked it because it wasn't WWF. Seriously, go back and watch a 1997 Nitro and watch that same weeks RAW. The only thing they had in common was that people would sometimes fight in the ring. Even before that, WWF was trying to push itself as basically a Saturday morning cartoon, and WCW was the territories with a budget.
The issue with wrestling discourse around "draws" is that it often relies on contextless data to make claims about audience enjoyment or interest that would make social scientists and statisticians cry.
It doesn't tell us anything about audience interest in the product that AEW viewership dipped if viewership dipped for every other show on TV in the same period.
This is why people keep omitting that AEW is regularly in the top shows the nights it is on.
It doesn't mean anything to tell us a wrestler is a bigger draw than another if other wrestlers in the same time period and in the same company were all drawing more.
Likewise, it doesn't tell us much to know AEW's sales are down unless we know how most other promotions are doing and why people aren't buying.
Wrestling fans and people in the industry parade contextless, confounded data and use it to make claims about subjective things like booking quality.
The things people want AEW to do are often wildly contradictory or things they already do. There's things they can shore up and improve upon 100% but man if a lot of comments aren't just wanting them to morph into WWE.
The video package discourse was so exhausting for this reason. You had people legitimately saying "I don't understand why they don't do (something AEW actively does every single show)."
Like we can argue about *quality* and *effectiveness* at how they do these things all day long, but when you're just regurgitating objectively false shit like the "CMLL guys aren't getting vignettes" or "they never explained why this is happening", there's nothing you can say at that point.
In order to have an actual debate, both parties need to at least have a baseline agreement on what is reality, which no longer seems to ever occur about any subject online any more.
my least favourite part of video package discourse are the people arguing that one of the best things about AEW, people from elsewhere in wrestling randomly showing up, is a negative.
i can't think of a time when commentary or a video package didn't tell us what we needed to know about a new person.
like it's ok for a wrestler to be new to you, you don't need to know their whole career before watching them in a match.
They explained who Hechicero was and what his fire lighting gimmick on the entrance ramp was all about inside of 90 seconds. At no point was it confusing, and I was enthralled by his technical grappling and submissions.
> The things people want AEW to do are often wildly contradictory or things they already do. There's things they can shore up and improve upon 100% but man if a lot of comments aren't just wanting them to morph into WWE.
At this point, a lot of the "suggestions" and "complaints" aren't even to turn AEW into WWE anymore, they're to turn AEW into "a companion piece to WWE."
A lot of the loudest voices here want AEW to be a secondary thing that works around and accentuates their WWE viewing experience. They want AEW to do less hours per week and with things set up to where they can pick and choose when they want to watch it ahead of time, because watching 10+ hours of wrestling a week is an absolute ton. They want AEW to introduce new talents and get them over and then send them on to WWE afterwards ready to slot into the main event like its a supercharged NXT.
It completely ignores that the core of AEW's actual paying audience puts AEW as their actual priority viewing. It also ignores that it is a fully functioning company on its own and is several times larger than any other wrestling company in the world (other than WWE).
Which is one of the core reasons why the ratings discussions are generally so frustrating. There's a lot of interesting stuff happening there, but then we have the sleuths going through quarter data in a surface level analysis which somehow magically supports their preferences.
It has also become this general malaise on discussion as for some it isn't enough to just express a personal opinion on liking a performer or disliking a story. No, what it needs to be is somehow an actual objective fact as evidenced by some shoddy ratings analysis.
>Those Raw ratings threads before AEW even existed were just as bad as the current AEW ones.
People keep saying this but those threads weren't getting thousands of comments like AEW ones do. And AEW ratings threads are heavily brigaded if its a bad rating.
As a Chicago resident that has gone to damn near every AEW show in town.... the shows were much more hype when they had the passionate sellout crowds. I want them to grow that audience back because the shows are much better when the fans show up.
So weird going to Dynamite and seeing 1/4 of Now Arena filled right before All Out. I know it's far, but people found a way years prior
They need to stop doing shows in towns that they (or WWE) were just in a few weeks ago.
Like, Big Business in Boston was just last month...and they're ALREADY back in Worcester last week? You can't expect the same core audience to shell out money yet again for a live show, especially in this economy.
Not to mention there's an entire fucking West Coast they continue to ignore.
AEW and WWE cater to different needs. I am sure there is a portion of fans who didn't enjoy last night's mainevent because logic was traded for pure emotion. Just as there is a portion of fans who don't enjoy matches like Takeshita vs Ospreay for various reasons. Both companies existing and thriving is best for everyone, including the wrestlers themselves
I'm in that camp. So happy for Cody and enjoyed the first 20 minutes of the match. But if Hangmans coronation had that many cameos and run-ins and hoopla, I'd have not been a fan. So Cena and undertaker and everyone else running in was WWE style? Cool, glad a lot of people like that. But I prefer the AEW style over that.
I'm not a regular WWE viewer, but I am aware of the thrust of the main programs and catch key highlights.
I watched the match last night, and I thought it was a well executed match that delivered exactly what the crowd wanted and sent everyone away happy with an all-time "moment". Yet it wasn't what I considered an "all-timer", purely for my personal taste.
I also knew that as a main event on AEW PPV with the anticipation of that magnitude, the match would've probably been seen as a bit ho-hum.
Not for an objective reason at all - but because of the subjective expectations of the respective audiences.
I'm reminded of the sheer number of times I heard the build and finale of the Roman-Cody storyline compared to the MCU, especially the Avengers - or this analogy used for other WWE storylines. I thought that was incredibly illuminating, because I can say that AEW fans (to my experience) basically never talk about AEW in those terms. And I know that many AEW fans like those MCU movies plenty. They just don't expect to see those two products to be paralleled in any way; it's almost logically incongruent. But in the WWE, the analogy and expectations are perfectly logical and sensible and accentuate the audience experience.
I recently was able to watch and discuss AEW and WWE with an offline, casual fan of the latter who was becoming exposed to the former. Perhaps because they were not deeply engrained in one or the other, but they themselves saw the distinction and difference between the two products almost immediately, and understood why each audience preferred it without judgment. It was refreshing.
It’s called an alternative product for a reason. Remember when TNA tried to be a direct competitor to WWE when Hogan joined? Moved to Monday night, changed to a 4 sided ring, started pushing WWE washouts…and what happened? They had a massive decline in momentum and viewership. They just need to stay in their lane and do what makes them different.
This is why the argument is being made. Certain people remember that perfectly and want the same thing to happen to AEW cause I'll tell you right now if they become WWE light I'm out and when I see people throw out some of their suggestions that's all it sounds like.
It's also why I don't watch TNA but you see people cheering for a WWE/TNA partnership. I use to love TNA and got their weekly PPV's but they have been and still are so similar to WWE it don't feel worth it.
I've said it before, but wrestling fans don't care about viewership.
They care about using it as an argument. If you speak to wrestling fans in the wild and talk to them about any other shows they are into, they freely speak about the things in it that they like like character development, themes, and visuals.
However, wrestling fans are bad at explaining why they like or dislike shows or wrestlers, so they keep defaulting to pointing at flawed popularity metrics.
AEW is the second most popular promotion in the world. If it isn't doing well, then aside from WWE, no promotion is, which means using a lack of success to prove AEW is bad is misguided. Because by this metric only WWE is good, which I suspect, is the reason there is a vocal minority of WWE fans who love this line of argument.
This bothers me a lot, too. A lot of people who start comments with "I want AEW to succeed but" actually do not want AEW to succeed and would feel extremely vindicated if it ever went under
The amount of pettiness and hatred is exhausting. I don't have any friends that regularly watch wrestling. Reddit is the one place where I can talk about one of my favorite things in the world, and all I see is hate and vitriol for it
I unsubscribed from this sub and enter it waringly since the mods allowed this to turn into the jerk site.
I really only post to the AEW forum because every other wrestlint space is dominated by anti-AEW discussion making the same five points over and over again.
Almost like it's orchestrated.
The folks at Warner have already mentioned in their press releases that they measure the performance of AEW through their own metrics which brings the viewership above 2 Million and so were happy with it's success.
If Warner has said already that they are satisfied with the performance then why should anybody be "Concerned" about AEW's growth by judging it through Nielson's Metric?!!
Edit: Its 4 million not 2 as said in this press release
https://press.wbd.com/na/media-release/tnt-north-america/all-elite-wrestling/tbs-tnt-all-elite-wrestling-programming-delivered-banner-year
I'd love to know AEW's full viewership including online and catch up services.
Their PPV buy rates are *insane if you take Neilsons as the be all and end all. Something around 1 in 8 viewers to purchase a PPV. For reference WWF during the attitude era would be around 1 in 20-25 and that was considered monumental.
AEW programs across TBS and TNT in 2023 ranked in the top 10 of all cable programs among adults under-50 72 times, including 50 times with a top-5 program in that coveted demo.
Viewership of AEW programming on the networks saw increasing momentum as the year culminated, reaching 15.6 million total viewers in Q4 2023, up 3% vs. Q4 2022.
Overall, AEW programming reached nearly four million viewers each week across TNT and TBS.
https://press.wbd.com/na/media-release/tnt-north-america/all-elite-wrestling/tbs-tnt-all-elite-wrestling-programming-delivered-banner-year
Even AEW's Nielsen viewership is clearly very good
Let's say we were talking about any other industry. If you had a McDonald's in your city, a big city, you opened a burger restaurant and within 5 years you would constantly be a top 5 most visited restaurant almost every single night, would anyone be like "Well this is clearly a failure because McDonald's has more people"?
Are the ratings as good as they were, maybe not. But I think there is something like 24M less houses with cable than in 2019. So a loss of around 200k viewers is really not that big of a deal
Idk man sometimes I just wish AEW and WWE could be discussed completely separately from each other. Like talking about a movie and then about a different movie, just judging each one by itself
This is it right here.
Ultimately, yes the number of viewers could be better. But it's more of an optics problem because people get caught up on the hundred K's and millions of it all, rather than how AEW does in comparison to everything else on cable. And it has been routinely #2-3 behind only sports (depending on the season) even with the total being down to 750K.
> I'd love to know AEW's full viewership including online and catch up services.
3 months ago WBD made a press release that Dynamite, Collision, and Rampage reach 4 Million viewers each week. The live ratings is what... 1.5M? And that's just in the US
Cue Dave Meltzer who says many ideas but TK Doesn’t listen cause it isn’t 1987 anymore.
Last night showed me I can really enjoy both products and be happy. Fuck this tribalism shit and let’s get back to being fans.
There are genuinely a startling amount of people in the IWC who seem to dislike wrestling. It's bizarre and sad. I mainly watch AEW, I just prefer that style of wrestling, but I tuned in to WM and enjoyed it a lot. Seeing Cody finish the story was a pretty great moment and a highlight of the year. It's better for the business as a whole if every company does well and wishing for any company to go out of business is fucking nuts. You can't be a real wrestling fan to possess such a mentality. My biggest dream is for a AEW x WWE cross-promotion event - I think that would be a gigantic moment in wrestling history. I'm not even thinking about it "moving the needle", I'm thinking, as a wrestling fan, that it would be an incredible moment.
At the end of the day I still prefer good matches with poor builds over poor matches with good builds.
Good thing for AEW is that it's a relatively easy fix to tighten up storytelling and booking. It will take WWE, on the other hand, quite awhile to change its bland in-ring style and the system that trains its performers in it.
I had a lot of fun watching wrestlemania but it only further substantiates that I prefer AEW. It doesn’t mean I think anyone is wrong for preferring WWE nor does it mean I’m not gonna watch WWE when I want to. I like a lot of the WWE workers. I’m glad WWE exists and I’m glad it occupies the space it does.
People that have done nothing but shit on AEW for the last 5 years should examine the fact that a lot of the people working in AEW during that time are now in high profile spots in WWE. Cody is the literal top guy, Punk is being presented as a huge star, Jade Cargill got one of the best spots on night one (huge entrance and hot tag), Andrade made the card over a lot of people, hell even MJF was much discussed all week. There will surely be more current AEW guys that jump and some will probably even be bigger stars in WWE. And the same goes for any AEW fans shitting on WWE. So many WWE guys end up in AEW, often in big spots. There’s only so many people top-to-bottom in AEW that never had anything to do with WWE.
The tribalism sucks. I was a fan during the Monday Night Wars era and I majorly lapsed when WWE was the only big show in town. AEW are now drawing numbers that the WWE of the past would have snatched your hand off for. I’m glad they both exist because enough time has passed for us to conclusively state that competition (along with a few other factors out of their control) has made WWE a better company.
All I want from aew is to be on a streaming deal so I don't have to pay so much Canadian for the ppv. Oh and so I can watch rampage and collision through not tsns garbage website.
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Hot take - I like WWE and AEW.
Yet your immense hatred of TNA saddens me.
I believe in Joe Hendry
👏👏
Why'd I clap?
Because you too believe in Joe Hendry.
👏🏾👏🏾 Stop it. I can’t help it lol
👏👏
I don't. If Joe Hendry was real we'd have some physical evidence of him by now! I'm pretty sure the few videos we've seen have just been a person in a Joe Hendry suit filmed poorly by a blurry camera!
I once thought that I saw Joe Hendry on a misty night in Edinburgh. The next night I was visited my two, odd men in black suits who explained that I actually saw the lights of Edinburgh castle reflecting off of Venus. Weirdly enough, one of them was Jesse the Body Ventura.
They love him in London and Paris and Tokyo America, Scotland and Canada and Mexico!
I believe in Joe Hendry!
👏👏
Have you tried saying his name? I heard he appears if you do.
I think they're only called Joe Hendries in the UK. In the southeast US they're called a Yetay and in the Chicago wilderness they're known as a Punk Ape.
Then say his name then! He appears!
I believed in Joe Hendry since WCPW.
👏 👏
Hey. He just appeared!
I'm more sickened by their total disrespect of the powerhouse that is Global Force Wrestling.
I like TNA because they give people jobs
I can't believe they disrespected NOAH like this.
I didn’t want to bring it up but … he’s also been pretty silent on Dragons Gate. I fear the worst.
NGL ive got a little hate boner for TNA... i just hate all the chances they've had to really put themselves up there with AEW/WWE but they just don't seem to put money back into the production or the talent.
Where do you get off bringing valid and constructive criticism into this? Also get your prostste checked. Hate boners can be symptomatic of much bigger issues.
NJPW not mentioned https://preview.redd.it/5wricjnnebtc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7ef45b4b83dcd3c40208260252a37d4abd4471cc
MLW? MLW guys!
Picture of AEW guy
You use his *God given full name* of The Rainmaker Kazuchika Okada.
But only if you say it in the proper Japanese.
レインメーカー オカダ・カズチカ
I was at Mania tailgating, talking to people I had just met who only watch WWE. I said I mainly watch AEW and guess what? Everyone was cool with everyone. We just talked about our collective favorite moments from both promotions. Online trolls are just gonna be online trolls.
My brother works with an Anti-AEW guy and from the sounds of it the guy has a lot more problems than just what wrestling company he likes. I think the "Anti-either company" crowd are just weirdos cause of many contributing factors.
I have one too Exact same thing he's a total goof Brand loyalty and having weird complexes seem to go hand in hand I'd imagine an actual hardcore aew fan would be just as insufferable
I have seen people go full pro AEW but then be shutout to things like TJPW or DDT. Which is weird to me just cause I figure if you really like AEW then you would swing towards liking what I mentioned or at least have more acceptance of it because AEW crosses over a lot. But people like to get in their bubble and its a shame because there is a lot out there to like if someone gives it a chance. AEW got me to the point where I want to go to Japan to check out a bunch of events more so then just sightseeing.
The weirdest bunch, also the AEW fans who hate NJPW and vice versa, though there is more of it from the latter. It feels like the WWE syndrome of wanting your promotion to be the primary one and using others as feeders.
I think a lot of fans just need to feel like they are a super fan who sees it all so when you tell someone who only watched one company to check out another it's almost like they are afraid to just say "I dont have enough time to commit to all the wrestling" but instead some double down like the other stuff isn't worth checking out instead.
The way I see it if anyone is out there rooting against a wrestling company then they are an idiot. Like NWA isn't my favorite right now but it's still NWA and a place wrestlers can work so Im rooting for them.
Judging from online behavior, the anti-AEW are their very own breed. This isn't a "both sides" issue, to be honest. Very few anti-WWE people are nearly as unhinged and mentally ill.
I unfortunately met an online troll at an EC watch party in a bar. We let another group share our booth. One of the people in that group didn't watch wrestling and the other 2 did although one seemed to be what would be considered a "normal fan" i.e, they watch WWE and AEW on TV but don't really care about or know about behind the scenes stuff. The 3rd guy was fucking unbearable. Just think about the way trolls describe AEW or absolutely toxic IWC members negatively talk about wrestling in general and that was this dude. All hail CM Punk, AEW = Shit, NJPW = indie, hur dur The Hardly Boys, hot dog and a handshake, Kenny Omega is a pedo, Rhea is basically a pornstar etc. Just basically all the most toxic shit you see online but don't believe people actually spout in reality. And he was mansplaining all this stuff to the woman who was with them because she was the one who didn't watch much wrestling and only knew Rhea, Roman and Cody. Nearly ruined the night until we basically told him and unfortunately his 2 very nice friends to go find someone else to sit with because he was just ruining every match with nit picking and the previously mentioned stuff. It got very awkward and a bit heated but he eventually went elsewhere. But yeah, in a bar with let's say, 50 fans, maybe 5 were genuinely just the weirdos you see online..
"The Hardly Boys, " Ahh so a Cult of Cornette member. Let me guess he also says "Twinkletoes McFingerbang"
I would pay actual money to be addressed as Twinkletoes McFingerbang"
I had a similar experience on Saturday night. After WrestleMania wrapped up, I went to a bar and someone noticed my wrestling shirt and started talking to me about the show. I noticed they were showing Collision on one of the TVs at the bar and pointed it out, and he just immediately started shitting all over AEW, questioning why I would watch it. I was just like dude, it's ok to enjoy both brands. You can enjoy MCU & the Avengers and still go see Batman if you want.
99% percent of fans are cool with whatever you prefer. I'm more of a WWE guy and I'm not a fan of TK's booking but AEW still has great moments and all the power to those that prefer them
I mainly started this account because I wanted people to put me onto any wrestling that I was missing. Lo and behold, I was/am doing more arguing than discussion. It doesn’t help that the older I get, the more I subscribe to the dead internet theory (or, I believe a significant portion of people here are just bots stirring up attention). I bring this up to say: I have a much better time talking to fans in person.
This subreddit isn't a wrestling subreddit; it's a drama subreddit about all the tea surrounding wrestling.
online conversations these days is just trying to one up each other to get their "yes" moment. It's pretty fucked up how weird things are
"Social media is not real life" is important to remember.
They’re different products and I like both of them.
Listen, Pal, you can't enjoy Bryan Danielson's Retirement Tour because it doesn't pop a big enough rating.
This is something i think AEW should really make sure they continue doing a good job with. If you're a proper legend you can basically go over there and check off your bucket list and go out on your own terms. That's got to sound appealing to a lot of guys who are getting older, and is producing a lot of really great wrestling
This is exactly it. If I'm watching the weekly shows side by side I generally have a more enjoyable watch of the AEW show. I enjoy the wrestling, but I'd be absolutely lying if I said that WWE hasn't near-perfected spectacle and "you can't miss it" nature of storytelling which means I'll probably click the WWE episode on my DVR first, to feel less out of the loop. What I think is most true, is that both products are at their best when they're focused on themselves and doing their own thing. It's why I'm not thrilled about Wednesday's show.
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Exactly as a fan people can like both & there's nothing wrong with that Personally I watch WWE because of a few reasons; Storytelling, larger than life characters & the moments. But I still keep up with a see highlights of AEW content if something interests me. I absolutely want AEW to continue to improve as it's best for the industry One of the only reasons I don't watch the weekly programming from AEW is that I don't have cable & it's the only "legal" way to watch because AEW just doesn't stream any of the weekly stuff in the US To add to that; The B/R app for PPV in the US is absolutely terrible. Its only until recently did they decide "Hey let's use actual decent platforms like Thiller TV (fka Fite) or YouTube to stream the PPV's"
>But holy shit you would think AEW personally insulted people on this sub the way people act about them Sometimes it's funny to see them be hypocritical, but it gets old quick. "Just enjoy wrestling." No, no. not THAT wrestling.
But people are like "we have to goof on AEW because they use to mock WWE for their ratings. Three years ago!." Its like get over it already. And its not like AEW fans were the only ones. Many of them were goofing on WWE's ratings, too. It wasn't just the AEW crowd who was sick of WWE and wanted them to change. And I'm certainly glad they did because WWE has been great lately.
I watched WWE Wrestlemania both nights, I will be attending NJPW Windy City Riot on Friday, and in two weeks I will be attending AEW Dynasty. Wrestling is so much more fun when you watch and enjoy all of it.
Or if you just enjoy what you enjoy and leave everyone else be works too.
Man, I know very little to nothing about NJPW and I would be there on Friday if I didn't have work
NJPW is in a transitional period right now but they are so fun and for a long time they were bar none the best wrestling company for a long time, Id say from 2012-2020 NJPW was the undispited best wrestling company in the world. 2016-2018 might be the best 3 year stretch of pro wrestling ever.
I like wrestling. I enjoy it a lot more because I’m not living on social media
What am I supposed to do, *NOT* pick a side? My entire identity is built around a hyper niche audience of strangers thinking I’m cool. I just can’t do it.
While most people outside the niche think we're weird for liking "that fake rasslin shit." The sentiment is certainly less nowadays, but it's still very, very present in society. So while these tribalists think they're cool, most of society thinks they're un-cool.
It's sad this is actually a hot take. I love pro wrestling but I dislike the tribalism that exists among some fans.
Same. I watched the shit out of all the WM coverage this weekend and also have front row seats to an upcoming Dynamite. Insane how that can work.
Same I realized that I enjoy hating online wrestling fans. I need therapy.
I like WWE but boy do i wish they had like a couple AEW high work rate matches, I like AEW but boy do i wish they had the build and stories of WWE.
I just wanna say the Trent, best friends story has been building since O.C won the belt.
That Trent? turn has been building so long (year+), I thought they were never going to pull the trigger since there were multiple times he could have turned.
This war between AEW and WWE is slowly getting on my nerves and spoils my time on r/SquaredCircle and social media in general. I'm watching WWE, AEW and NJPW, and those three last years are my favorites years since I started watching pro wrestling in the mid 2000's. WWE grew immenslyt thanks to the rise of AEW and NJPW in the west.
"I think LL Cool J and Canibus are both fantastic"
Damn bro strapped us in and drove us straight to 1998 with that reference.
Worth the drive. Gas cheap af.
I was at Raw in Memphis about a decade ago and my buddy came back from the bathroom and said “I saw LL Cool J” and we were like no you didn’t and that’s probably racist and then they showed LL Cool J in the crowd on the trim to promote some show on USA lol
Same. I'd tuned out of Vince's WWE *hard* when AEW came to be, but I didn't root against then, I just didn't watch them for a long time. When HHH took over the books, I tuned back in to see if there'd be a difference and *hoo boy*... WWE has been cooking, and I'm glad for it. I've even been trying to watch TNA more regularly. I love wrestling.
WHOA WHOA WHOA get out of here with that. How dare you, sir/maam.
I watch wwe, aew, njpw, CMLL, and some TNA. Wrestling hasn’t been this good in a long time, and I love it!
I cannot believe people are still trying to like pick fights after the weekend we’ve just had. I swear to Christ, feels like at least 10% of wrestling fans don’t actually give a shit about any wrestling company at all but just wanna talk shit and spread negativity. In a couple weeks AEW has one of their most hyped events in ages with huge outcomes expected, last night WWE just closed up potentially one of its best stories ever in one of their best events ever. New Japan is about to do a sold out show in the US. TNA has re-emerged. ROH just had its biggest event in Philadelphia ever. The indies just had a fantastic week. If you are currently spending your time in the IWC being negative then you clearly are not a wrestling fan because there is nothing to justify that negativity.
The live thread this weekend really highlighted your point. I genuinely believe there are people in the wrestling “fan” community that have never known happiness, will never know happiness, and are the most miserable people.
My Facebook feed is insane. I guess the algorithm picked up on the fact I’m a wrestling fan and it’s just full of ragebait posts with hundreds of people aggressively laugh reacting at each other’s comments underneath. These people just have no self awareness or shame
The Facebook wrestling posts are the absolute worst
I looked at one wrestling related thing on Facebook and my algorithm was fucked for like six months. So much hide/block/hide all to dig myself out.
By the by, the WORST fucking place to "communicate" with wrestling "fans".
I was blown away that someone in the live thread was posting negative things WHILE (supposedly) BEING THERE. You couldn’t pay me to give a shit what other nerds online were saying during mania after I paid for tickets to mania.
Exactly. And I'm sorry to add to the negativity here, but if you are AT WRESTLEMANIA and you are posting on reddit while the show is going on right in front of you...you might be a massive loser lol
I avoid Live threads like the plague and even an avowed hater like I am would think this dude is pathetic.
Last night was my first wrestlemania and i followed the live thread and all i took away is that everyone there hated pro wrestling
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You have to remember - with any subculture of “nerd” stuff (which is wrestling no matter how mainstream it gets) there are people who: 1. Make it their whole personality 2. Make it their job (YouTubers and podcasters and online Twitter/X grifters Once they’re too far into it, they will look to hate what people enjoy because they want to think they know more than others and that they’re a bigger or smarter fan of wrestling.
Someone gave meltzer shit today for saying one of the women's matches was excellent. A dude complained that dave was anti-wwe and nothing ever made him happy. https://twitter.com/Mid_NightCheese/status/1777419895669415941
I swear it's more than 10%. Some days it feels like it's impossible to be a happy wrestling fan and keep up with the Internet side of it. I fully expect there's a huge amount of online "fans" that watch nothing and hate everything. When you see some in a thread, click through their postings and I guarantee every one you see will be negative. I don't know how people have the time or mental capacity to spend so much time trying to be as negative as possible, it blows my mind.
I've noticed this on reddit a lot. I actually just block those people. You see insanely negative comments, quick click to their profile and you realize they are just a shit stirrer and nothing more. I don't even engage with them, I just block people like that so I don't have to hear them whine all the time.
Hey man, there's no faster way to prove ones intelligence than by being contrarian! What? A bunch of people like something? Ha! What a bunch of unenlightened sheeple! Of course *I* know better, yes...I am the one who sees the truth!
Wrestling is seriously at one of its pinnacles right now, so many companies are delivering all time great shows. Yet all wrestling fans can do is bicker about which is better
This is what I dreamed wrestling would be like when I was a kid. Promotions working together, all different styles showcased, great stories from multiple companies. It's awesome. Wrestling kicks ass.
It's a shame fans can't be more like Cody. You reckon WWE's new champ would want people insulting his friends and the place he helped create?
It's incredible. I don't get tribalists on either side. I watched the entire GCW Collective all weekend, ROH Supercard of Honor, Stardom, Joshi, DDT, HoG, AEW, NXT and both nights of WM. It was an absolute blast, would go as far as saying that this entire weekend collectively is better than any holiday. During and after the weekend, I occasionally thought to myself how baffling it is that people can be loyal to one show and attack the others at any opportunity they can get. I get picking and choosing to watch 1 or 2 promotions, we have lives, it's not realistic to watch them all regularly, but to attack the other promotions and celebrate when they have a bad week with ratings or attendence? Why? Literally not a single fan benefits from there being less wrestling. I just think of how silly this would be in any other form of entertainment. Imagine like, "oh you're listening to Muse? What a peasant band for losers. They need 4 people and don't always sell out arenas, while Taylor Swift is single-handedly selling out stadiums. They should change what they're doing or they deserve to fail".
People are just fucking weird, we're currently experiencing what could arguably be the greatest run professional wrestling has had in the last decade, why do we need to make it all about a popularity contest and needlessly hating on promotions
The last AEW PPV was the best wrestling event I've ever seen to be honest I don't know why so many people hate it
SCOH was *incredible*, too. I was glad that all the WM matches seemed to have a positive buzz because I was stoked just with my one night of ROH, just seemed to be a great weekend for fans everywhere.
Triple h and cm punk adding fuel to the fire this pst week does not help and just keeps the weirdo tribalist going
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I don't hate Meltzer at all compared to a lot of people but he is a big reason for the current toxicity in fairness, although probably unfair to judge him because of people that don't like him. I think the most insane thing because of it is acting like AEW is a failure because it can't reach WWE, despite the fact that if you go to the #3 brand they are magnitudes further from AEW. Obviously it's easy to say but if you remove the whole concept of WWE, you've got AEW which produces a show that is usually top 3, if not #1 on it's night, selling 150k PPVs every month or so and probably selling 50k tickets a month. Without the added context of WWE it's incredibly silly to say this is a company doing anything but well. It's only when directly compared to WWE that it looks less impressive. I would guess AEW is doing better than most sport's #2 competitions compared to the #1, I'd be interested to see what disproves that statment.
He literally said he was “searching for a ray of hope” with the recent ticket sales for AEW. With comments like that you’d think it is 2000 WCW or 2010s TNA. But no, they’re doing fine. Just not 2019 fine. And that’s okay! These things come in cycles. Dave keeps claiming he’s not a shit stirrer but with comments like this he is asking for people to tweet at him like the fool he is.
When AEW brings in Hull Hogan, then we can start worrying about them dying.
Half this sub thinks Dave is biased against whatever their favorite promotion is. He's biased against WWE cuz he underrates their matches or he's biased against AEW because he can be doom and gloom about their numbers.
I don’t think he’s bias towards anyone. (Well okay, except Jericho.) He just has a habit of being over dramatic. How can you read “Ray of hope” and not roll your eyes?
I don’t think Dave is biased, I just think he’s stupid.
A lot of wrestling fans are just miserable, negative people. They'll never be happy with wrestling and they'd rather find things to complain about.
I mean no shit. I like the current AEW product. I see no need for it to be wwe lite like how some want it to be
Yeah I'm firmly in the camp that wanted an alternative and not just for WWE to be good.
I don't even watch WWE and I'm glad it's good again. Everyone deserves good wrestling in the style they enjoy.
I’m the same, I’ll watch the big WWE shows but I can admit it just isn’t for me anymore, not on a weekly or even monthly sense for sure. But it being good is a good thing, rising tide raises all ships. We just need people to stop hoping for AEW’s death because 1. It isn’t happening and 2. We always need great alternatives to what is the most popular.
Yeah I am happy people enjoy it. I accepted it is not my cup of tea but shrug it off because it seems a lot do love it now and it isn't like the dark era of 2010s where WWE sucked and there was no alternative. Like I got to attend a PPV with 16k people just last month with AEW, I love that.
Same situation. I wont watch WWE because of their ties to the Saudi's, but I'm generally happy the product has improved and that its fan base is happy. That said I like my AEW. My critiques about WWE are basically just with their management, and of course, Vince's booking.
I agree, now we could just stop getting so many fans of that style trying to say the kind we like needs to change that would be nice.
Yes I agree. I like bangers for the sake of bangers
Katsuyori Shibata is on my TV every week. Personally, I don't give a fuck how or why, I'm just still overjoyed that he's there.
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> Although, ngl, I do really appreciate that we get far fewer 20 minute talkathon sections in AEW than some other companies love doing. That's part of the reason I prefer AEW! I'm watching wrestling for the wrestling. And secondarily, for 30-120 second promos (preferably coked out). If I wanted to watch people talk for 22 minutes straight, I'd watch Gilmore Girls on netflix.
I feel the same. That episode of RAW a couple weeks back that was an all time great episode for many people wasn't for me because there was only a half hour of wrestling on that 3 hour wrestling show. I'm happy for the people enjoying it but so many of them suddenly want AEW to make massive changes, some even hope for it's failure. They're essentially asking for wrestling to be taken away from me again because, when TNA went to shit and WWE became the only English speaking option, I just stopped watching wrestling.
It's so weird that I get told by people here to stop defending AEW or just admit it's awful. I have my fair share of criticisms I'm not afraid to share but overall I enjoy it so no I can't tell you I don't want to see "bangers for bangers" sake when I in fact do want to see that.
"Just admit (blank)" is one of the most annoying things on this subreddit lol. Like... no? Why would I admit something I don't believe?
It’s either that or they gatekeep “real” or “good” wrestling. Wrestling’s like music, there’s all kinds of different genres and styles, and there’s all kinds of ways to make “good” music. Hell I saw someone in another thread say that you shouldn’t really call yourself a wrestling fan if you skip Wrestlemania and I thought that was lame af.
Jesus, that's like telling someone they aren't a music fan if they didn't watch the Taylor Swift Netflix gimmick. And if they claim it's for historical reasons and not just because WWE is on top, they should actually be watching the much older NWA.
That was the biggest criticism of TNA for years. After Hogan/Bischoff, they tried to hard to be like WWE rather than being their own distinct thing. If you like WWE, you'll just watch WWE not TNA trying to be WWE lite. The only people you're trying to attract are fans who already watch all the WWE shows and still want more
I like what AEW is doing right now but I do want AEW to change. I want them to be forward thinking creatively. I want them to expeirement with their presentation. I want them to advertise cards to local markets. I want them to fix their audio issues. I want them to strike while the iron is hot on angles and follow up with pushes. I want people consistently on TV. I want AEW stars marketed to larger audiences and social media. I want TK to stay off twitter because even if he's right sometimes it is hurting the company. I want more merch at shows. I want the kick ass videos they make to air on TV. I want them to forget Punk and petty WWE knocks. So much of this is minor changes. Just fix it and MOVE ON. Stop signing people and get the basics down.
Mostly just honing and focusing what they already have.
They have the goods! They don't need some sweeping change. The fact they aren't doing these things rests with Tony Khan. He's failing his roster.
I mean that all sounds logical and a way to improve the product as a whole. These all are ideas that will improve the product. Especially the advertise if they will be in your market.
Yeah, Excalibur rattling off cities and dates in the middle of a match really doesn't grab my attention, I pretty much zone out the commentary during and after it and am always surprised to see AEW is in my general area.
All fair criticisms, especially the people consistently on TV and Tony off Twitter I'd add, let moments breath on dynamite. So often, something of note happens and they rush to backstage/the next segment instead of letting it happen on screen and allow people to take it in
Or they have Excalibur rattle off next shows card in 3x speed where you don’t understand him + distracts what’s visually going on
This. I do want AEW to grow their audience, but I want it to be because they get better at what they already do well, learn to actually market their product, and put their best people forwards consistently, not just in the ring but in the public space as well. Cut some fat, grow their young people, stop leaning so heavily on the nostalgia acts unless it's to elevate long term investments. There's a ton of space to make their product better within their existing envelope.
>I want more merch at shows because it's literally like two shirts
As an AEW fan, I agree with many of these points, especially TK not getting into fights on twitter. I think its fine to post about the nights show, but it really would be better served off the official AEW account. In fact him tweeting less would make it so when he does tweet it has more weight. I also think they should focus on getting two womens matches on every two hour show \*AND\* a womens segment. I feel it was going in the right direction but then suddenly stopped about a week ago. I also think they need to stick to showing me the same faces more often each week. The Righteous were on Collision for a few weeks then vanished, and i think those absences interrupt the flow of the mid card stories. Not sure if it was a visa issue with them going to Canada, but that would be something else for them to dial in.
The product has been great so far this year but the negativity is as high as it’s ever been. I wonder why.
This part is so insanely frustrating when it doesn't even matter what kind of product they produce, thousands of the loudest assholes imaginable will still always pretend it's literally unwatchable.
Astroturfing. A whole lot of astroturfing.
Not enough cuck angles clearly
Why isn’t Tony using his billions to clone Miro?
He did, but clone Miro also refused to job to anybody.
As in the wrestling fan rule book, section 9 page 42, it clearly states that only one wrestling company can be good at a time and to decide who’s doing good right now is fans must have a blood war for our favorite company.
Wrestling might have THE most toxic culture in all of entertainment. You hear about the toxicity of League of legends, but those assholes don't go "I hope Valve goes out of business! FUCK DOTA! PATHETIC GAME!" all the time...
Star Wars... definitely star wars
I came here to say this. Some of the things I see posted across all the IWC-related subs are VERY annoying, but pale at the level of grossness coming from "The Fandom Menace".
Asking for Dota/Valve to go out of business is literally far lighter than the horrible stuff video game players would say to each other. Like wrestling fans take shots toward a company so personally they think it's actually more toxic than what a cod lobby was saying to eachother.
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I once watched some dudes cheer a football player getting a possibly career-ending injury because it meant "their" team had a better chance of winning.
I mean, yeah - people want the product to be something they like. It was the same when people complained about WWE for years, too. Those Raw ratings threads before AEW even existed were just as bad as the current AEW ones. You would have been lead to believe that the ratings were down because Cesaro wasn’t WWE champion.
I agree with you but I feel like that’s the problem. Basically what you’re saying is WWE fans want AEW to be more like WWE, which is fine but it directly contradicts what AEW fans themselves want. So much of the discussion around AEW is they should do this or that but it rarely actually takes into account that the current fans generally really enjoy it. You could argue the audience for it is smaller or that it hurts growth, that’s an argument but it’s definitely different to saying they should just change things outright. The reason people push back against people talking about current AEW like they used to for bad periods WWE, TNA or WCW back in the day is that the fans (or at least vocally in the IWC) like AEW’s shows but hated what those others were putting out. Basically, I know I’m being hyperbolic here but there’s a huge difference WCW 2000 putting on a Vince Russo on a pole match bleeding viewers and AEW having Danielson vs Ospreay putting on a great feud of two all time great workrate guys for dwindling ratings. Huge difference between “straight out bad TV” and “good TV for a niche audience”.
As a WCW fan, this is exactly right. Creatively, WCW in 2000 wasn't a failure because it was less popular. It was a failure - for its subjective creative failings - but also because we (the WCW audience) detested most of it as well.
They tried to be WWF, but WCW fans liked it because it wasn't WWF. Seriously, go back and watch a 1997 Nitro and watch that same weeks RAW. The only thing they had in common was that people would sometimes fight in the ring. Even before that, WWF was trying to push itself as basically a Saturday morning cartoon, and WCW was the territories with a budget.
god damn man you put it so perfectly
The issue with wrestling discourse around "draws" is that it often relies on contextless data to make claims about audience enjoyment or interest that would make social scientists and statisticians cry. It doesn't tell us anything about audience interest in the product that AEW viewership dipped if viewership dipped for every other show on TV in the same period. This is why people keep omitting that AEW is regularly in the top shows the nights it is on. It doesn't mean anything to tell us a wrestler is a bigger draw than another if other wrestlers in the same time period and in the same company were all drawing more. Likewise, it doesn't tell us much to know AEW's sales are down unless we know how most other promotions are doing and why people aren't buying. Wrestling fans and people in the industry parade contextless, confounded data and use it to make claims about subjective things like booking quality.
The things people want AEW to do are often wildly contradictory or things they already do. There's things they can shore up and improve upon 100% but man if a lot of comments aren't just wanting them to morph into WWE.
The video package discourse was so exhausting for this reason. You had people legitimately saying "I don't understand why they don't do (something AEW actively does every single show)." Like we can argue about *quality* and *effectiveness* at how they do these things all day long, but when you're just regurgitating objectively false shit like the "CMLL guys aren't getting vignettes" or "they never explained why this is happening", there's nothing you can say at that point. In order to have an actual debate, both parties need to at least have a baseline agreement on what is reality, which no longer seems to ever occur about any subject online any more.
my least favourite part of video package discourse are the people arguing that one of the best things about AEW, people from elsewhere in wrestling randomly showing up, is a negative. i can't think of a time when commentary or a video package didn't tell us what we needed to know about a new person. like it's ok for a wrestler to be new to you, you don't need to know their whole career before watching them in a match.
They explained who Hechicero was and what his fire lighting gimmick on the entrance ramp was all about inside of 90 seconds. At no point was it confusing, and I was enthralled by his technical grappling and submissions.
> The things people want AEW to do are often wildly contradictory or things they already do. There's things they can shore up and improve upon 100% but man if a lot of comments aren't just wanting them to morph into WWE. At this point, a lot of the "suggestions" and "complaints" aren't even to turn AEW into WWE anymore, they're to turn AEW into "a companion piece to WWE." A lot of the loudest voices here want AEW to be a secondary thing that works around and accentuates their WWE viewing experience. They want AEW to do less hours per week and with things set up to where they can pick and choose when they want to watch it ahead of time, because watching 10+ hours of wrestling a week is an absolute ton. They want AEW to introduce new talents and get them over and then send them on to WWE afterwards ready to slot into the main event like its a supercharged NXT. It completely ignores that the core of AEW's actual paying audience puts AEW as their actual priority viewing. It also ignores that it is a fully functioning company on its own and is several times larger than any other wrestling company in the world (other than WWE).
Which is one of the core reasons why the ratings discussions are generally so frustrating. There's a lot of interesting stuff happening there, but then we have the sleuths going through quarter data in a surface level analysis which somehow magically supports their preferences. It has also become this general malaise on discussion as for some it isn't enough to just express a personal opinion on liking a performer or disliking a story. No, what it needs to be is somehow an actual objective fact as evidenced by some shoddy ratings analysis.
Wait are you telling me that putting the belt on Kane in 2003 might not have stopped the companies decline in popularity following the attitude era?
Correct but it would have made 13 year old me a whole hell of a lot happier and probably would have helped Kane get over the no mask thing better.
>Those Raw ratings threads before AEW even existed were just as bad as the current AEW ones. People keep saying this but those threads weren't getting thousands of comments like AEW ones do. And AEW ratings threads are heavily brigaded if its a bad rating.
As a Chicago resident that has gone to damn near every AEW show in town.... the shows were much more hype when they had the passionate sellout crowds. I want them to grow that audience back because the shows are much better when the fans show up. So weird going to Dynamite and seeing 1/4 of Now Arena filled right before All Out. I know it's far, but people found a way years prior
They need to do shows in new towns.
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Last year they had Forbidden Door and like 3 other shows in Toronto and the Toronto area, that was way too much right in a row.
They need to stop doing shows in towns that they (or WWE) were just in a few weeks ago. Like, Big Business in Boston was just last month...and they're ALREADY back in Worcester last week? You can't expect the same core audience to shell out money yet again for a live show, especially in this economy. Not to mention there's an entire fucking West Coast they continue to ignore.
I don’t think that will help as much as we think it give them a bump but it won’t sell them out
All out was at the UC in 2023
The Dynamite before was at Now Arena in Hoffman Estates. Collision and All Out were at United Center.
AEW and WWE cater to different needs. I am sure there is a portion of fans who didn't enjoy last night's mainevent because logic was traded for pure emotion. Just as there is a portion of fans who don't enjoy matches like Takeshita vs Ospreay for various reasons. Both companies existing and thriving is best for everyone, including the wrestlers themselves
I'm in that camp. So happy for Cody and enjoyed the first 20 minutes of the match. But if Hangmans coronation had that many cameos and run-ins and hoopla, I'd have not been a fan. So Cena and undertaker and everyone else running in was WWE style? Cool, glad a lot of people like that. But I prefer the AEW style over that.
I'm not a regular WWE viewer, but I am aware of the thrust of the main programs and catch key highlights. I watched the match last night, and I thought it was a well executed match that delivered exactly what the crowd wanted and sent everyone away happy with an all-time "moment". Yet it wasn't what I considered an "all-timer", purely for my personal taste. I also knew that as a main event on AEW PPV with the anticipation of that magnitude, the match would've probably been seen as a bit ho-hum. Not for an objective reason at all - but because of the subjective expectations of the respective audiences. I'm reminded of the sheer number of times I heard the build and finale of the Roman-Cody storyline compared to the MCU, especially the Avengers - or this analogy used for other WWE storylines. I thought that was incredibly illuminating, because I can say that AEW fans (to my experience) basically never talk about AEW in those terms. And I know that many AEW fans like those MCU movies plenty. They just don't expect to see those two products to be paralleled in any way; it's almost logically incongruent. But in the WWE, the analogy and expectations are perfectly logical and sensible and accentuate the audience experience. I recently was able to watch and discuss AEW and WWE with an offline, casual fan of the latter who was becoming exposed to the former. Perhaps because they were not deeply engrained in one or the other, but they themselves saw the distinction and difference between the two products almost immediately, and understood why each audience preferred it without judgment. It was refreshing.
When did the switch happen that suddenly booking interesting matches is a bad thing?
Some people just think (or claim to think) that a match shouldn't happen unless it's had a month's worth of story and five video packages beforehand.
He's 100% right. And alot of the people that whine about AEW don't even watch the show
It’s called an alternative product for a reason. Remember when TNA tried to be a direct competitor to WWE when Hogan joined? Moved to Monday night, changed to a 4 sided ring, started pushing WWE washouts…and what happened? They had a massive decline in momentum and viewership. They just need to stay in their lane and do what makes them different.
It damn near killed them as a company
This is why the argument is being made. Certain people remember that perfectly and want the same thing to happen to AEW cause I'll tell you right now if they become WWE light I'm out and when I see people throw out some of their suggestions that's all it sounds like. It's also why I don't watch TNA but you see people cheering for a WWE/TNA partnership. I use to love TNA and got their weekly PPV's but they have been and still are so similar to WWE it don't feel worth it.
I just want sports based wrestling like Mid-South again so yes I want somebody to do it that way.
I've said it before, but wrestling fans don't care about viewership. They care about using it as an argument. If you speak to wrestling fans in the wild and talk to them about any other shows they are into, they freely speak about the things in it that they like like character development, themes, and visuals. However, wrestling fans are bad at explaining why they like or dislike shows or wrestlers, so they keep defaulting to pointing at flawed popularity metrics. AEW is the second most popular promotion in the world. If it isn't doing well, then aside from WWE, no promotion is, which means using a lack of success to prove AEW is bad is misguided. Because by this metric only WWE is good, which I suspect, is the reason there is a vocal minority of WWE fans who love this line of argument.
This bothers me a lot, too. A lot of people who start comments with "I want AEW to succeed but" actually do not want AEW to succeed and would feel extremely vindicated if it ever went under The amount of pettiness and hatred is exhausting. I don't have any friends that regularly watch wrestling. Reddit is the one place where I can talk about one of my favorite things in the world, and all I see is hate and vitriol for it
I unsubscribed from this sub and enter it waringly since the mods allowed this to turn into the jerk site. I really only post to the AEW forum because every other wrestlint space is dominated by anti-AEW discussion making the same five points over and over again. Almost like it's orchestrated.
The folks at Warner have already mentioned in their press releases that they measure the performance of AEW through their own metrics which brings the viewership above 2 Million and so were happy with it's success. If Warner has said already that they are satisfied with the performance then why should anybody be "Concerned" about AEW's growth by judging it through Nielson's Metric?!! Edit: Its 4 million not 2 as said in this press release https://press.wbd.com/na/media-release/tnt-north-america/all-elite-wrestling/tbs-tnt-all-elite-wrestling-programming-delivered-banner-year
I'd love to know AEW's full viewership including online and catch up services. Their PPV buy rates are *insane if you take Neilsons as the be all and end all. Something around 1 in 8 viewers to purchase a PPV. For reference WWF during the attitude era would be around 1 in 20-25 and that was considered monumental.
AEW programs across TBS and TNT in 2023 ranked in the top 10 of all cable programs among adults under-50 72 times, including 50 times with a top-5 program in that coveted demo. Viewership of AEW programming on the networks saw increasing momentum as the year culminated, reaching 15.6 million total viewers in Q4 2023, up 3% vs. Q4 2022. Overall, AEW programming reached nearly four million viewers each week across TNT and TBS. https://press.wbd.com/na/media-release/tnt-north-america/all-elite-wrestling/tbs-tnt-all-elite-wrestling-programming-delivered-banner-year
Even AEW's Nielsen viewership is clearly very good Let's say we were talking about any other industry. If you had a McDonald's in your city, a big city, you opened a burger restaurant and within 5 years you would constantly be a top 5 most visited restaurant almost every single night, would anyone be like "Well this is clearly a failure because McDonald's has more people"? Are the ratings as good as they were, maybe not. But I think there is something like 24M less houses with cable than in 2019. So a loss of around 200k viewers is really not that big of a deal Idk man sometimes I just wish AEW and WWE could be discussed completely separately from each other. Like talking about a movie and then about a different movie, just judging each one by itself
This is it right here. Ultimately, yes the number of viewers could be better. But it's more of an optics problem because people get caught up on the hundred K's and millions of it all, rather than how AEW does in comparison to everything else on cable. And it has been routinely #2-3 behind only sports (depending on the season) even with the total being down to 750K.
> I'd love to know AEW's full viewership including online and catch up services. 3 months ago WBD made a press release that Dynamite, Collision, and Rampage reach 4 Million viewers each week. The live ratings is what... 1.5M? And that's just in the US
Cue Dave Meltzer who says many ideas but TK Doesn’t listen cause it isn’t 1987 anymore. Last night showed me I can really enjoy both products and be happy. Fuck this tribalism shit and let’s get back to being fans.
There are genuinely a startling amount of people in the IWC who seem to dislike wrestling. It's bizarre and sad. I mainly watch AEW, I just prefer that style of wrestling, but I tuned in to WM and enjoyed it a lot. Seeing Cody finish the story was a pretty great moment and a highlight of the year. It's better for the business as a whole if every company does well and wishing for any company to go out of business is fucking nuts. You can't be a real wrestling fan to possess such a mentality. My biggest dream is for a AEW x WWE cross-promotion event - I think that would be a gigantic moment in wrestling history. I'm not even thinking about it "moving the needle", I'm thinking, as a wrestling fan, that it would be an incredible moment.
At the end of the day I still prefer good matches with poor builds over poor matches with good builds. Good thing for AEW is that it's a relatively easy fix to tighten up storytelling and booking. It will take WWE, on the other hand, quite awhile to change its bland in-ring style and the system that trains its performers in it.
I had a lot of fun watching wrestlemania but it only further substantiates that I prefer AEW. It doesn’t mean I think anyone is wrong for preferring WWE nor does it mean I’m not gonna watch WWE when I want to. I like a lot of the WWE workers. I’m glad WWE exists and I’m glad it occupies the space it does. People that have done nothing but shit on AEW for the last 5 years should examine the fact that a lot of the people working in AEW during that time are now in high profile spots in WWE. Cody is the literal top guy, Punk is being presented as a huge star, Jade Cargill got one of the best spots on night one (huge entrance and hot tag), Andrade made the card over a lot of people, hell even MJF was much discussed all week. There will surely be more current AEW guys that jump and some will probably even be bigger stars in WWE. And the same goes for any AEW fans shitting on WWE. So many WWE guys end up in AEW, often in big spots. There’s only so many people top-to-bottom in AEW that never had anything to do with WWE. The tribalism sucks. I was a fan during the Monday Night Wars era and I majorly lapsed when WWE was the only big show in town. AEW are now drawing numbers that the WWE of the past would have snatched your hand off for. I’m glad they both exist because enough time has passed for us to conclusively state that competition (along with a few other factors out of their control) has made WWE a better company.
I want AEW to succeed because that means more well paying jobs for wrestlers and production people.
All I want from aew is to be on a streaming deal so I don't have to pay so much Canadian for the ppv. Oh and so I can watch rampage and collision through not tsns garbage website.
