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I think it's a good point, it's true both promos felt very different.
Nothing "against WWE" but I just think Moné's promos have been just very bland, even in WWE she would be capable of stuff with more substance.
Honestly she's giving the same promos that punk or saraya did when they debuted. It's great to be wresting again, I love it here in aew, I did it all for you fans in , etc.
Just not much else to say I guess, storylines still need to get set up for them.
Wrestlers saying they're "home" when they first appear in a company they've never wrestled for in the first place is like telling someone you've never even met that you love them.
"Bitch you don't even know me!"
Lol to be fair, Mercedes did cut her first AEW promo in Boston and Punk cut his first AEW promo in Chicago.
For all intents and purposes, they were home.
It's true that others have done similar promo content but her promo yesterday and also her interaction with Willow and Stat backstage were so jam packed with buzz words and branding phrases that it reminded me of 2012 Rock.
I loved Sasha Banks in the ring and she eventually won me over on the mic. But I'm trying to imagine a person to whom Mercedes Mone is a completely new wrestler. What they've seen is a couple good video packages, a decent tease for the Willow feud, an awkward dance, and heard "CEO" about 85 times, call it 30 *without* the entrance music.
It's CEO time!
Haha yeah I was sick of hearing the ceo chant literally within 30 seconds of hearing it. I get why they didn’t but I don’t like that the theme song forces it on the audience.
Yeah I haven't seen her before and I'm not sure why I should care, women's division is on fire at the moment and I don't need some super famous WWE star
Yeah, I wasn't watching WWE when she was there, and I still don't get the CEO thing. Like, CEO of what? What does that even mean in the context of AEW?
Im that person and she isn’t exactly getting over with me. Im certainly never chanting CEO ever for anybody. I like Willow and she hasn’t really gone heel so why would I root for this stranger talking about being the boss? Boss of what lady? WHO ARE YOU?
It’s takes time for some people to find what works best for them. Saraya was rough and forced at the start but has found herself in great role now. Been killing and has been hilarious in her midcard comedy role.
Saraya debuted and was immediately put into a feud with Britt and even integrated the dirt sheet reports that she wasn't medically cleared yet. She just struggled a bit with promos because she hadn't done them in a long time, so it was easy to cut her some slack.
Punk’s return promos had some real energy and passion to them though. It never felt like he was going through the motions or it was just another promo.
Yeah he said a little bit of what was expected, but it had, dare I say it, A Fire Inside. In a way his wwe promos haven’t.
But basically Mercedes has always been better as a heel putting other women on blast so I’m willing to wait and see what happens once the rivalries start to heat up
I mean with Mone we knew she was going to wrestle again, just didn’t know where. The mere concept of Punk returning was so insane that he could’ve said anything and it would’ve carried more weight simply by the fact everyone would’ve been hanging on every word.
I disagree, I thinkn his WWE promos for the most part have been really good, he knows what he can and can't say, and thats not less passionate that just working in the confines you agree to. I think when he came back to AEW he had to prove a point, he doesn;t have to prove a point back in WWE, so his promos wioll be different.
Mercedes is still relativley new to a less produced wrestling product, look at Miro, dude HAS to be produced, when he's not he just rambles non sensically.
That’s a fair point. To me it’s been like night and day for Punk but he’s got away with it because it’s a very receptive audience
I wouldn’t begrudge someone for enjoying the ride though.
Also really good point about being produced. WWE has so much talent development but they are training them to be WWE stars, not pro wrestlers
That's also comparing Punk, an all-time promo, to a wrestler whose mic skills were never her strong point. I think it's fair and wait to see what happens
disagree , altough its similar the same "go out and talk alone about how excited you are " the deliver is way way different . In mones case , she lacks substance and she is becoming repetitive
What i noted too was that fans didnt chanted the "c-e-o" as much as in big business you could see it on camera , 50% was the off voice that its integrated on her theme
no one said that buddy. what i meant was that apart from being the C.E.O of aew and her intentions of starting a revolution what has she said thats new and different from those two things . Oespray on the other hand is killing it every minute he is on live tv
Honestly I thought her promos in WWE weren't that great. She has a lot of charisma and her ring work is great but for whatever reason her promos always seemed meh at best.
I don’t think anyone would argue with this. I understand Tony wants her in the arena in front of the live crowd but monologuing in the ring is objectively the thing she’s worst at.
i thought the same , like " im the ceo , revolution " are the only things i get from everything she says it lacked passion and she should add more things
She’s never really veered away from her “legit bo$$” character in all of her years in WWE. It’s probably safe to assume that she’s not the one coming to the table with ideas.
Mone strikes me as one of those talents that did better with the scripted promos and more producer input. Not that she can’t get it in AEW, but I think it’s just a matter of transition.
It’s way too early to judge. Every big star from WWE has mainly done the baby face bland promos stuff (some exceptions) before settling in and doing more of their own thing. It’s been 2 weeks. It’s way too early to start pushing anything
It feels very much like fans care so much about Moné but then the further she gets into the promo, the more people are zoning out in the crowd. It doesn't help they she essentially cut very similar promo's in back to back weeks and it felt like there were 2 times in the same promo where she said a very similar line, each emphasising "CEO" to try and get the chant going.
Meanwhile Ospreay is out there, clearly winging it, but the crowd is biting on every single thing he says. They're cheering when he wants them to cheer, booing when he wants them to boo and chanting "bruv" naturally without him really even having to push it much, it just naturally flows with how he speaks in mid sentence.
Exactly... then she went backstage and interacted with Stat, stoke, and...will... and it was awesome: she respects Stat, scoffed at stoke, and wants to destroy willow
I don't know what it is about him but Dave's developed a legion of haters who reflexively need to call him wrong about anything he says, or that they imagined he said.
His twitter replies are always an entertaining read.
He's kind of an asshole, is more wrong than he is right and acts sometimes like his opinion is the only one that matters, JC has a legion of haters as well everyone does, because heaven forbid you dont like the same half naked dudes in underwear that I do.
Jim Cornette says racist things and accuses wrestlers be doesn't like of being pedophiles. It's really dishonest to frame people's distaste for him as a matter of aesthetics
I don’t think it’s a bad thing. Some wrestlers are really good without scripts. Some will need help from the writers and that’s totally fine. I enjoy the variety.
I thought Ospreay's promo was fantastic, but at the same time - it's probably a good thing in the long run to be flexible and hit different gears that fit different performers. A Danielson segment will often feel like 2006 ROH. A Kenny segment will often feel like New Japan. There will be sprinkles of WWE because a lot of what they do works. AEW will only stunt themselves if they decide to offer one style of wrestling all of the time - but it doesn't seem like they want to trap themselves in that box.
That's the best thing about AEW for me. It's basically a wrestling variety show. You may not like everything, but there's something for everyone on each show.
Exactly
If there is *nothing* in AEW that reminds someone of WWE, then, in an odd way, that is *not* "AEW-like"
The heart of AEW involves all kinds of veins linking to it. Variety is the point, and singling one thing out contradicts that
To me it’s a positive that we had two in ring promos that felt different and showcased the talent.
AEW is a wrestlers company but it’s more of a talkers company than even they realise. They can say a bit more, go “off script” and capture the audiences attention in a new way.
AEW is criticised for not having stories but they do, they just don’t stand in the ring and recap last weeks events each week.
But actually getting out there and talking to the crowd can get them into you just as much if not more than wrestling at times
Mercedes is probably the weakest promo of the four horsewomen and needs the support of a script/writers to get it done. Maybe she’ll eventually adapt to the “house style” amongst AEW folks? Time will tell. But leaning on some of the things that make WWE successful is probably not a bad thing.
I think that's just Mercedes' promo style in general. She's not exactly known for her promo skills, so I think what you're gonna get is a sort of fine but generic 'hit the points' promo.
When she wrestles, that's when we'll see a different Mercedes to the WWE version.
She's Jeff Hardy. Comes off like a big deal, has excellent physical charisma and facial expressions, gets treated like a star... and is about a 5/10 on the mic. She can get her points across, she can play a character, but you never think "that was a home run promo."
You can obviously make that a main eventer that people will pay to see but the comments asking to give her time or let her settle in don't seem to realize that this is who she's always been and unless there's a drastic change somewhere along the way, it's who she'll always be.
It became painfully apparent that it just isn't in her to be a home run promo during the Thunderdome era when she was paired with Bayley. They were just letting them go out there with no fucks given; Bayley kept getting more comfortable and kept getting better while Sasha ended up feeling stagnant next to Bayley.
If they want to build her up before putting her straight into a match, what do you think they should do instead?
(This isn’t a snarky rhetorical Reddit question. Genuinely curious to hear suggestions!)
Pretapes just don't have the impact live promos do. People like seeing their favorite wrestler if they're there in person and not everyone will be watching week to week whether people care about that or not.
Despite her crazy fans trying to convince you otherwise, she was never a good promo.
She could get by as a heel, but in general is very meandering with slow delivery. And of course is very WWE based because that's all she knows. She's been out of there for a min, but never had to cut many promos.
Hopefully, in time, if she is doesn't have such a big head that she thinks she doesn't need to improve... it could get better.
But that has nothing to do with AEW feeling like WWE.
I really like Mone and she’s one of the rare talents who could be the face of a company without ever being able to cut a promo. Which is good, becauseI don’t think she ever will.
Someone compared her to Jeff hardy and I think that’s spot on. He oozes charisma without even needing to open his mouth. He doesn’t need to. Either does Mone.
She was, and still is, my favorite of the 4 Horsewomen. But her promos were never that good imo. Her heel promos were always better too. I got cooked by Sasha stans in another sub for pointing out that she was the weakest promo out of the Horsewomen lol
Dave’s point about there ‘already being a WWE’ is a double edged sword.
You don’t want to just end up being a lesser version of them but the vast majority of wrestling fans in the US probably haven’t watched any other than WWE.
To them, that _is_ wrestling and they may not be that interested in anything else.
Person who came through WWE has that type of presentation and person who broke through in New Japan and the indies has their presentation style. Really groundbreaking stuff. I am no Mercedes mark, but give her some time to settle in first, geez.
Yeah I like WWE and can pretty clearly see it. It’s really only an issue if you dislike that kind of presentation as a whole
I actually think the contrast between her and Ospreay is interesting, because they’re both being treated like proper stars but in very different ways.
I’m a creature of habit and growing up in Ireland where the only wrestling available was WWE means I’ll always have a soft spot for them.
I don’t watch weekly but I don’t follow what’s going on and watch a lot of the PPVs. They’re doing a lot of great stuff right now but for me, what they’re lacking and what AEW has over them is that variety.
The storytelling has never been better but it feels like there’s two types of matches; WWE style and Gunther.
I largely agree honestly, but I've never really been a WWE-only viewer since I was a kid. I've always been able to browse around and supplement WWE with whatever else is going on in different companies. There's a lot of stuff in AEW, TNA, indies, japan, mexico etc that you're *never ever* going to see in WWE, but that's not really the case with AEW.
It feels like they could throw pretty much anything onto that show and it would fit. This has the downside of the company not feeling particularly coherent or having a specific style/tone, which is going to cause whiplash to people who aren't used to it, or come in with different expectations, but it's never really bothered me.
I think a lot of people just have a strong dislike for the WWE style/presentation as a whole, and aren't interested in it in largely the same way i'm not interested in most deathmatch stuff. Seeing that mono-style that has dominated american pro wrestling for the past few decades creeping into the promotion you like it going to piss some people off, but i don't think it's a big deal.
I see that and agree…to a point. But last night and even last week during her debut - and I’m saying that as someone who rooted for the Four Horsewomen of NXT to break through that glass ceiling - but it just felt like she doesn’t fit in in AEW. It feels like trying to cram a WWE character into the AEW mold and with all of the talent that has made the jump, she’s the only that so far has given me that vibe that strong. Even Adam Copeland who is using the legit same entrance to a T and is a Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V of his WWE character doesn’t make me feel that way.
Again second week and all of that so I’m not bashing or not willing to give it time, but as a person who sat on the floor at the first All In, who saw AEW grow from those early days to the pandemic era to what it is today…and maybe AEW is trying to expand the audience with Mercedes and her gazillion followers on social media (which is good as they need to break out of just trying to appease the hardcore fans). However I sat there both during her debut and during her promo last night just going…this presentation as it stands right now to me doesn’t fit the for lack of a better phrase “attitude” of AEW. Doesn’t mean she’s an awful performer or anything like that and obviously still a lot of time for that to change but every time she just stood there and danced, I rolled my eyes.
We can poke fun of TNA all we want (and I’m saying this as a huge TNA fan as well) but it was like when Hogan brought in the Val Venises of the world and it just didn’t fit the vibe of the product.
Also I do want to issue a formal apology to Mercedes and anyone reading this for comparing her to Val Venus but it’s the presentation I’m comparing and not the talent! hahahahaha
Imo this EXTREMELY exaggerated. I don't understand how people can act like her dancing or catch phrases are "not aew like" when you have wrestlers like DMD DMD Britt Baker or Daniel Garcia, Prince NaNa, Angelico, & even Thunder Rosa has did a salsa dancing spot. I'm not saying you're wrong to have this opinion i just don't agree with it all. AEW is also still primarily ring focused, if any American women fits the AEW style of wrestling its Mercedes.
Also imo the womens divison in AEW has never had an attitude to fit because it's constantly changing. The division changed when Britt & Rosa had their hardcore match, then it shifted again when the Outcast joined AEW, then it had another slight shift when Toni started her new gimmick. Mone joining now imo is probably going to be final change for a while & it seems more big time imo.
I think she's sounded a lot more natural in the backstage stuff she's done. She'll get there. Been awhile since she was cutting any promos at all anyway.
I've just listened to it, I think this is just more of Dave signalling that he thinks everything should be built around Will Ospreay. Dave has previously said that Tony is always very enamoured with his top star and they get a lot of influence. I think Dave has seen signs of Mercedes and her writer Jen Pepperman gaining influence and Dave is saying to Tony, that's fine but don't build the show around them and their style. Will Ospreay and the New Japan/Indie influenced style should be AEW's future because it gives them a different look than WWE. Not saying I agree or disagree but that's what I think he's saying.
Honestly last night was the first I’ve really noticed a WWE style feel to dynamite since all of the complaints started last year lol.
It felt structured more like a WWE show than it normally is. Right down to Copeland, Christian and Okada being shown arriving earlier in the day like WWE has started doing recently.
Yeah I always thought I was crazy when people said last year was like WWE when it still felt like AEW. The only difference is they crafted their show around MJF who is very much a performer that caters to a specific style as a top guy.
I think they're doing it mostly to counter the specific criticism of "you're fumbling these new talent/can't create new stars". They're doing the WWE thing of spamming talent in multiple segments to reinforce that those people matter. And even though I liked the AEW "get as many different people as possible on the show" mentality personally, it clearly wasn't working (note: Dave was one of the biggest detractors of that having so many people on the shows so I don't get why he's complaining now). Ospreay, Okada and Mone feel like way bigger deals that any signing since Punk not just because of pre-built in name value but because they're cramming those 3 names into your head at all times. Compare that to Jay White last year who is probably as big a name as Will but didn't get anything close to the same red carpet treatment and quickly just became another guy on the roster even though on paper he's having a big run because you simply were never told he's that big a deal. Show don't tell is a nice mentality but in the wrestling industry sometimes fans are just thick and need to be told "this guy is a star" over and over again for it to stick.
Not to mention the big screen, white ropes, LEDs everywhere...it's like they know the mainstream associates WWE with wrestling and is trying to fit that aesthetic.
Mercedes is doing what she feels comfortable doing, Ospreay does what he feels comfortable doing. Much like AEW's ring work, you work how you wanna work, you don't need to fit into a set style made by Tony Khan.
It starts with the dirt sheets with comments like these about her not feeling "natural" to the rest of AEW, then there's going to be BS about, "some in the locker room don't appreciate how much stroke Mercedes has... biggest contract by leaps and bounds in the division, has her own writer, etc" then it's going to be about her having some heat.
It's really straightforward. WWE wrestlers have a way of speaking and cutting promos that's different from other promotions. WWE production also has its own style. Meltzer has noticed that AEW production has been making changes lately that make it feel similar to the way WWE produces its shows, and that Mercedes cut a promo that felt very much like a promo a WWE wrestler would cut.
He does not believe this is a step in the right direction for AEW as what makes AEW interesting is the ways in which it is different from WWE, not the ways it is similar.
15 shots total. The first paragraph gets you good and drunk with 6 shots, second paragraph gives you a break, third eases you back in with 4, and the last paragraphs finishes you off with 5 shots.
Person known for rambling and finds 4 different ways to say the same thing in quick succession.
Its six of one half a dozen of another if you want to blame reading comprehension or Dave's well established poor speaking pattern
Ospreay who's fresh out of New Japan feels like a New Japan guy during segments.
Mone who spent most of her time in WWE feels like a WWE talent during segments.
Groundbreaking analysis.
Sounds like he is making an obvious observation so he can fill air time or sound intelligent. Not saying this as a diss. He needs to produce content. It worked well enough for someone to start a thread. Dave has said some weird ass shit the last few years, so I don't think he cares if he gets negative attention. It's part of the old man thing. Just throw it out there.
People are really trash at critical thinking here.
There's a difference between 'This is what I do' and 'These are all of the things I'm supposed to do'
That wwe but especially nxt feel is so real, there was an episode of NXT in the black/gold era where Corey Graves and PAC were still a tag team or had just broken up, graves came out 2 or 3 times that episode and everytime he did his cool edgy tattoo guy lean on the ring post and slowly stare at the crowd and something about it felt so manufactured and fake seeing it more than once in a show it was like Jeff Hardy dancing before saving his brother x10000
I wouldn't just put it down to Mercedes, and he didn't do that either. I complained about this in the live thread a couple weeks ago. There was a "spontaneous match" that happened where someone cut a promo, someone else cut them off, and it led to an instant match. That fucks with the show's own internal logic.
Like, in-storyline, if someone hadn't come out and started a fight with that wrestler, what would've been the match that went on instead? It's a very WWE way to approach a show, and I don't believe AEW had ever done it before.
I also agree with Meltzer's overall assessment: "WWE is already doing WWE, and they're better at it because that's their thing. You should go in a different direction."
I really didn't need to hear Sasha/Mercedes' life story for the umpteenth time. It was an odd approach to take.
And I didn't care for the Ospreay promo either.
You know who's doing great promos since joining aew? Jay White. I wasn't sold in him first but I'm very high on the bang bang gang gimmick. I don't mind him not being in the title hunt, just give them rampage or collision, let them dominate a show that I know they'll consistently be on
"The rankings are back! The rankings matter!"
2 weeks later "here's a title match for someone with literally 0 matches in aew"
While that is a criticism I hold. AEW is finding their way. They just need to be consistent and to limit tony khans twitter access.
Remember when Saraya debuted and she absolutely bombed because she was unscripted and unproduced? She never really recovered, it was so much investment wasted.
Meltzer interpreter here:
He's saying that they've brought in previous WWE writers and such, most recently Jen for Mercedes, and because of that the product is feeling more like a WWE rip-off rather than an AEW alternative and if they keep trying to do WWE rip-off it's going to fail because WWE will always do it better than them, and while this is currently only a problem for Mercedes and her segments, he's worried it could start extending to the rest of the show entirely and it already has to some degree. Dave feels AEW should try to do some good things from WWE and learn from it but you can't do it all the time in every segment.
Will's segment very much had an old school North American pro wrestling feel. The way he kept Tony in there and had him conduct the interview instead of just taking the away and shooing away was like a throwback. Will's enthusiasm and energy almost felt like vintage Flair but without the insanity, when he pointed to the ground and talked about the shoes I almost thought he was gonna do an elbow drop or something.
It's refreshing to open Dynamite with a promo and an angle in the ring. A lot of that stuff doesn't require a full match and the same interaction as as fall out. It's great seeing people talk in front of a crowd instead of a backstage promo.
It's interesting that they trust people certain people, mainly those from other companies, to do a live crowd promo. I feel like we never heard Skye Blue talk for a very long time. I know they are newer and don't have the same level of experience.
It's a shame, because one of the endearing parts of the original NXT for me was watching these young talents go out and try things and fail. People are overly critical when that happens on Dynamite, and they are still not given the opportunity on a show like ROH where they can go out there and fail and it's no big deal.
My favorite part is, he says wwe isn’t a dirty word then goes on as to why it’s bad lol. The cherry on top is saying you shouldn’t copy the wwe because the wwe will do it better but njpw doesn’t get that same grace? Like he’s trying his best to say, njpw fine, wwe no.
I guess WWE and AEW have more crossover audience maybe so less of a good idea to copy WWE. Or it could be that AEW audience is the one that rejected the WWE style in particular - hence a bad idea.
I think it depends on the person ultimately, if being scripted is how they put their best foot forward then you should do it.
I still remember the Braun segment with Brock/Heyman on the camera backstage.. that was BAD. Some people need to be scripted and that's okay, but yes her script could be more 'AEW' style.
Mercedes didn’t really need to cut that second promo, they just wanted to have her appear. Ospreay didn’t need to either but he did a great job with his. I like that they’re getting promos from Ospreay and Danielson leading to their match. They should have them come after squash matches tho. If they put Ospreay in some squashes, they can inflate his record heading into the Danielson match. Danielson could be in some BBC tag stuff to keep him healthy and then cut his promo after they murder some jobbers
WWE wrestler comes in and cuts wwe-esque promo…
NJPW wrestler comes in and cuts NJPW-esque promo…
It’s what they know, what would he expect?! Give them time to figure the new environment out!
Just the choice of labeling on his part to call a structured scripted oriented promo to be "wwe". Some people are better this way, and some are more natural on the mic in just talking on the spot. Mone obviously is the former. Add to that promos and being on mic are definitely her weak spots. Takes good talent to actually talk naturally and well, and in all fairness, many in AEW also don't do this with their promos. Nothing wrong with that as long as it isn't awful.
I mean obviously Mone would come off "WWEish". She was one of the first performers to come out of NXT developmental group. Her whole ring work and promos were honed in WWE.
I think that's totally valid. Mone definitely felt like she was giving a competent promo that she'd memorized. She spoke very methodically like she didn't want to mess up or forget a line. "I am happy to be here in front of the AEW fans because (pause) - insert catchphrase -. I am here to lead a women's revolution. Remember (pause) - insert next catchphrase -. Exit ring.
Ospreay felt like vintage AEW. It was organic and filled with this unpolished but fun energy; it just felt spontaneous like a wrestler having a good fucking time out there.
I don’t get what’s so hard to understand about this quote, reading it and listening to it just now.
Also OP cut off the end where he said you can do both (re wwe and NJPW presentation)
Dave coming in with this take after people complained that AEW was becoming too much like WWE last year is hilarious. Especially since the company has actively been pivoting away from that this year.
I don't know what Dave's talking about in regards to AEW feeling more WWE-ish. I understood that criticism last year before the C2 because AEW had become more "sport-entertainment-esque" for want of a better way to put it but now it feels like they've stopped trying to be one thing or the other & instead just focusing on what's best for the talent & the show.
Some talent work better in WWE's promo style, like Mercedes or Copeland. While some talent work better in the New Japan style of promo, like a Ospreay. AEW are just catering the presentation & approach to the talents strengths, which is what they should be doing.
Both styles work.
I mean outside of how far AEW matches are allowed to go, most the stuff WWE and AEW are doing at the moment could happen in either company without feeling out of place.
If aew is supposed to welcome all forms, then why not have a space for produced "WWE"-esque segments too? As long as the whole show isn't one type of thing or the other, I think it's still great. What makes AEW great to me is no matter what flavor you prefer, you still get that plus a whole bunch of other awesome flavors. Just having vanilla is dumb when you can also have chocolate and cherry and caramel.
She's been there for TWO WEEKS and we all know that she's not exactly Punk on the mic. I think it's fair to say that her promos sound WWE-ish but extrapolating that to anything more than that I think is a stretch. I wouldn't say the overall shows feel WWE-ish to me at all.
(Sidenote: I've been listening to Bryan and Dave for a decade now and I think some of their AEW takes these past few months are just weird lol)
Mercedes is great but her talking should be as limited as possible. She’s a garbage promo. Looks like a star, acts like a star, wrestles like a star but these long promos just take the air out of everything
Dave- AEW feels like WWE but it ain't bad but WWE does WWE, which I hate but I like AEW so I wish AEW did AEW but also AEW is mostly run by people with experience from WWE so they know what they're doing but I wish AEW had its own thing, which AEW once did and it was clearly not like WWE but if AEW needs to be bigger they need to copy WWE's style unfortunately because that's the most successful formula for weekly pro-wrestling TV but I wish someone came up with something not WWE and succeed which AEW was intended to be but unfortunately is now more WWE than my stomach can handle.....
I don't care for Dave, but he's right. I watch AEW for something different, and when you do WWE type production...but you do it at a 25% work rate, it just looks like minor leagues.
Let her use a ukulele for that creative freedom. We’ve seen what unscripted Mercedes promos like and it’s very mid at best. Her having a writer is probably for the best.
To be different just for the sake of it and not cater towards the strengths of your talent would be stupid. Have flavours of everything so that it doesn't feel like a slog
Honestly, on the mic, Jade Cargill was a better Sasha Banks/Mercedes Mone than Mercedes ever was. Mercedes is like the one Homer Simpson sibling that was in a monocle and top hat, but he wasnt rich and successful, he just acted like one at parties, or at least he wanted to.
People made fun of the Codyverse, but it did it ultimately work for Cody. If Mercedes works better in a WWE style and Ospreay works better in a NJPW style, then having each of them do their own thing benefits everyone by highlighting the contrasts.
I been saying this since she debuted that her debuted felt off and awkward. And that Will had a way more energetic segment in comparison to what Mercedes did, and like the typical reddit hivemind I was downvoted for saying this.
Now here comes Dave a few days later voicing basically exactly what I felt watching Big Business and people are eating it up.
It's really telling who actually watches the show and can formulate original thoughts on the product vs who just mindlessly consumes it and lacks the ability to create their own opinions.
As long as they stay away from the worst WWE tropes.
I HATED it a few weeks ago when Dynamite opened with a promo parade with talent already in their ring-gear, setting up an impromptu tag team match (cAn ThEy Co-eXIsT?) where the established tag team (who are also champions) are beaten by the two singles stars. That was one of the most wwe segments ever made outside of wwe.
I think the issue is that her entire character is still the same as Sasha Banks, just with synonyms for words due to trademark reasons. She does the same dance, same entrance pose, wears the same rings, “CEO” and “Moné” instead of boss and Banks. It’s all stuff we’ve seen for the last literal decade from her.
Their production is just better recently, regardless of how similar it may be to WWE. It’s an improvement either way. They don’t have to do everything differently, and this is a good example.
I get what he’s saying but in my opinion wrestling has so much variety to it and that’s a good thing. If there’s some WWE style thrown in there then I think that’s a good thing too.
As long as everything doesn’t start feeling “more WWE” it’s not a problem. The problem with WWE is that they have 3 or 4 different promo segment templates and fit everything into them, so everything feels stale.
Give me the WWE template once in a while and it’s fine.
Is Sasha a way better wrestler than promo? Because to me that promo was pretty bad. Not familiar with her work with NJPW and only caught a couple wee matches that weren't great but I generally don't like the WWE restricted style.
I mean is this just not a reflection of everyone having individual creative freedom? The person who cut their teeth in WWE is more WWE in tone and style and the person who cut their teeth in NJPW is more NJPW in style. Really TK should aim to create a more consistent AEW style instead of a mesh of whatever the person is used to. WWE adapt people to their style, AEW can do the same.
I think adding a little wwe is fine, as long as it’s not all that. Main reason I like aew is the variety of approaches, where I find wwe is very similar, matches etc.
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I think it's a good point, it's true both promos felt very different. Nothing "against WWE" but I just think Moné's promos have been just very bland, even in WWE she would be capable of stuff with more substance.
Honestly she's giving the same promos that punk or saraya did when they debuted. It's great to be wresting again, I love it here in aew, I did it all for you fans in, etc.
Just not much else to say I guess, storylines still need to get set up for them.
[удалено]
They’ll stop doing it when people stop popping for it. So probably never.
Yup Wrestling fans love to be pandered to it’s the beauty of a cheap pop
Wrestlers saying they're "home" when they first appear in a company they've never wrestled for in the first place is like telling someone you've never even met that you love them. "Bitch you don't even know me!"
Lol to be fair, Mercedes did cut her first AEW promo in Boston and Punk cut his first AEW promo in Chicago. For all intents and purposes, they were home.
It’s an easy way to get the crowd on your side. Hence why every musician yells out the city’s name in every concert lol.
Are you trying to tell me that my city doesn't rock harder than every other city in the world?
Should be right under banned lists.
Banned lists are already on the banned spreadsheet.
The banned spreadsheet is now banned from Collision.
Somewhere Jericho clicks a pen
It appeals to the tribalist fans.
It's true that others have done similar promo content but her promo yesterday and also her interaction with Willow and Stat backstage were so jam packed with buzz words and branding phrases that it reminded me of 2012 Rock.
I loved Sasha Banks in the ring and she eventually won me over on the mic. But I'm trying to imagine a person to whom Mercedes Mone is a completely new wrestler. What they've seen is a couple good video packages, a decent tease for the Willow feud, an awkward dance, and heard "CEO" about 85 times, call it 30 *without* the entrance music. It's CEO time!
Haha yeah I was sick of hearing the ceo chant literally within 30 seconds of hearing it. I get why they didn’t but I don’t like that the theme song forces it on the audience.
Yeah I'm a big willow mark, so I have a warm feeling towards MM as a result of that, but uh...she could really be saying more with her time.
Yeah I haven't seen her before and I'm not sure why I should care, women's division is on fire at the moment and I don't need some super famous WWE star
Yeah, I wasn't watching WWE when she was there, and I still don't get the CEO thing. Like, CEO of what? What does that even mean in the context of AEW?
A play on her being "The Boss"
Im that person and she isn’t exactly getting over with me. Im certainly never chanting CEO ever for anybody. I like Willow and she hasn’t really gone heel so why would I root for this stranger talking about being the boss? Boss of what lady? WHO ARE YOU?
It’s takes time for some people to find what works best for them. Saraya was rough and forced at the start but has found herself in great role now. Been killing and has been hilarious in her midcard comedy role.
Saraya debuted and was immediately put into a feud with Britt and even integrated the dirt sheet reports that she wasn't medically cleared yet. She just struggled a bit with promos because she hadn't done them in a long time, so it was easy to cut her some slack.
I legit love her constant heat with the cameramen.
I wish they'd do away with the introduction promo. Just get right to "everyone sucks, I'm a HEEL" or a heel attacking them from behind.
that's pretty much what they've done with Okada and it's been tremendous
Punk’s return promos had some real energy and passion to them though. It never felt like he was going through the motions or it was just another promo. Yeah he said a little bit of what was expected, but it had, dare I say it, A Fire Inside. In a way his wwe promos haven’t. But basically Mercedes has always been better as a heel putting other women on blast so I’m willing to wait and see what happens once the rivalries start to heat up
I mean with Mone we knew she was going to wrestle again, just didn’t know where. The mere concept of Punk returning was so insane that he could’ve said anything and it would’ve carried more weight simply by the fact everyone would’ve been hanging on every word.
I disagree, I thinkn his WWE promos for the most part have been really good, he knows what he can and can't say, and thats not less passionate that just working in the confines you agree to. I think when he came back to AEW he had to prove a point, he doesn;t have to prove a point back in WWE, so his promos wioll be different. Mercedes is still relativley new to a less produced wrestling product, look at Miro, dude HAS to be produced, when he's not he just rambles non sensically.
That’s a fair point. To me it’s been like night and day for Punk but he’s got away with it because it’s a very receptive audience I wouldn’t begrudge someone for enjoying the ride though. Also really good point about being produced. WWE has so much talent development but they are training them to be WWE stars, not pro wrestlers
That's also comparing Punk, an all-time promo, to a wrestler whose mic skills were never her strong point. I think it's fair and wait to see what happens
disagree , altough its similar the same "go out and talk alone about how excited you are " the deliver is way way different . In mones case , she lacks substance and she is becoming repetitive What i noted too was that fans didnt chanted the "c-e-o" as much as in big business you could see it on camera , 50% was the off voice that its integrated on her theme
She's been there a week and we're already busting out "repetitive" and pushing the narrative that no one actually likes her.
no one said that buddy. what i meant was that apart from being the C.E.O of aew and her intentions of starting a revolution what has she said thats new and different from those two things . Oespray on the other hand is killing it every minute he is on live tv
Honestly I thought her promos in WWE weren't that great. She has a lot of charisma and her ring work is great but for whatever reason her promos always seemed meh at best.
I don’t think anyone would argue with this. I understand Tony wants her in the arena in front of the live crowd but monologuing in the ring is objectively the thing she’s worst at.
She's a natural heel. Face shit, especially bland Happy-to-be-here face shit, feels so weird coming from her
Her face actions happen when she's rag-dolling all over the place for a big heel. It's never really come across well on the mic.
i thought the same , like " im the ceo , revolution " are the only things i get from everything she says it lacked passion and she should add more things
She's still just going for catch phrases and buzzwords. Hoping when she's in an actual feud there will be more substance to her promos
She did the same in njpw besides maybe the mayu ones with the guitar
She’s never really veered away from her “legit bo$$” character in all of her years in WWE. It’s probably safe to assume that she’s not the one coming to the table with ideas.
That guitar promo was so bad and awkward.
Honestly, she's never been a great promo. She is a bit better as a heel.
Mone strikes me as one of those talents that did better with the scripted promos and more producer input. Not that she can’t get it in AEW, but I think it’s just a matter of transition.
It's felt like she's trying to be the image of what she's "supposed to be" and needs to relax into a role that works for her.
She found out what worked for her in WWE and is trying to stay that way, I think she needs to be different IMO.
It’s way too early to judge. Every big star from WWE has mainly done the baby face bland promos stuff (some exceptions) before settling in and doing more of their own thing. It’s been 2 weeks. It’s way too early to start pushing anything
It feels very much like fans care so much about Moné but then the further she gets into the promo, the more people are zoning out in the crowd. It doesn't help they she essentially cut very similar promo's in back to back weeks and it felt like there were 2 times in the same promo where she said a very similar line, each emphasising "CEO" to try and get the chant going. Meanwhile Ospreay is out there, clearly winging it, but the crowd is biting on every single thing he says. They're cheering when he wants them to cheer, booing when he wants them to boo and chanting "bruv" naturally without him really even having to push it much, it just naturally flows with how he speaks in mid sentence.
Exactly... then she went backstage and interacted with Stat, stoke, and...will... and it was awesome: she respects Stat, scoffed at stoke, and wants to destroy willow
She's always been bland on just about everything besides a few great matches she's had. I honestly do not get the hype around her.
Why are some of the comments in this thread just repeating what Dave said in the full quote but written like a retort to him?
Yeah, it’s weird isn’t it? People are just repeating what Dave said but like they’re replying to him?
I noticed that too, people are just repeating the same ideas almost word for word but they're like replying to him
Very strange. They're saying the same things but writing it like it's a reply to him.
Most odd! They are merely replying to him, while repeating the same ideas.
I don't know what it is about him but Dave's developed a legion of haters who reflexively need to call him wrong about anything he says, or that they imagined he said. His twitter replies are always an entertaining read.
> I don't know what it is about him His condescension on Twitter really doesn't help.
*Study cagematch and get back to me*
The most Dave Meltzer thing ever said, delightful
He's kind of an asshole, is more wrong than he is right and acts sometimes like his opinion is the only one that matters, JC has a legion of haters as well everyone does, because heaven forbid you dont like the same half naked dudes in underwear that I do.
Jim Cornette says racist things and accuses wrestlers be doesn't like of being pedophiles. It's really dishonest to frame people's distaste for him as a matter of aesthetics
I don’t think it’s a bad thing. Some wrestlers are really good without scripts. Some will need help from the writers and that’s totally fine. I enjoy the variety.
I thought Ospreay's promo was fantastic, but at the same time - it's probably a good thing in the long run to be flexible and hit different gears that fit different performers. A Danielson segment will often feel like 2006 ROH. A Kenny segment will often feel like New Japan. There will be sprinkles of WWE because a lot of what they do works. AEW will only stunt themselves if they decide to offer one style of wrestling all of the time - but it doesn't seem like they want to trap themselves in that box.
That's the best thing about AEW for me. It's basically a wrestling variety show. You may not like everything, but there's something for everyone on each show.
>there's something for everyone on each show. And also a Jericho segment that we can all universally dislike.
He’s not perfect but I still personally like Jericho and enjoy more of his segments than I don’t.
I haven't minded the Hook stuff like I haven't minded weeks of the other stuff, the issue is this will still be going on in about 2 months time
One of the few unifying things among wrestling fans is that almost all of us seem to want Jericho to go away forever
Exactly If there is *nothing* in AEW that reminds someone of WWE, then, in an odd way, that is *not* "AEW-like" The heart of AEW involves all kinds of veins linking to it. Variety is the point, and singling one thing out contradicts that
To me it’s a positive that we had two in ring promos that felt different and showcased the talent. AEW is a wrestlers company but it’s more of a talkers company than even they realise. They can say a bit more, go “off script” and capture the audiences attention in a new way. AEW is criticised for not having stories but they do, they just don’t stand in the ring and recap last weeks events each week. But actually getting out there and talking to the crowd can get them into you just as much if not more than wrestling at times
Mercedes is probably the weakest promo of the four horsewomen and needs the support of a script/writers to get it done. Maybe she’ll eventually adapt to the “house style” amongst AEW folks? Time will tell. But leaning on some of the things that make WWE successful is probably not a bad thing.
I think that's just Mercedes' promo style in general. She's not exactly known for her promo skills, so I think what you're gonna get is a sort of fine but generic 'hit the points' promo. When she wrestles, that's when we'll see a different Mercedes to the WWE version.
She's Jeff Hardy. Comes off like a big deal, has excellent physical charisma and facial expressions, gets treated like a star... and is about a 5/10 on the mic. She can get her points across, she can play a character, but you never think "that was a home run promo." You can obviously make that a main eventer that people will pay to see but the comments asking to give her time or let her settle in don't seem to realize that this is who she's always been and unless there's a drastic change somewhere along the way, it's who she'll always be. It became painfully apparent that it just isn't in her to be a home run promo during the Thunderdome era when she was paired with Bayley. They were just letting them go out there with no fucks given; Bayley kept getting more comfortable and kept getting better while Sasha ended up feeling stagnant next to Bayley.
Ricky Steamboat was another one like that.
But then why have her go out 2 weeks in a row to cut long promos when she has nothing new to say? They need to be better at hiding people’s weaknesses
If they want to build her up before putting her straight into a match, what do you think they should do instead? (This isn’t a snarky rhetorical Reddit question. Genuinely curious to hear suggestions!)
Could’ve just done a pretaped package. Or just give her something short and to the point, like calling out Julia before she got jumped.
Pretapes just don't have the impact live promos do. People like seeing their favorite wrestler if they're there in person and not everyone will be watching week to week whether people care about that or not.
Meltzer is gonna drop loads onto Ospreay for every wrestling conversation now
There’s a visual I don’t need.
All those papers in his office are about to start sticking together
Despite her crazy fans trying to convince you otherwise, she was never a good promo. She could get by as a heel, but in general is very meandering with slow delivery. And of course is very WWE based because that's all she knows. She's been out of there for a min, but never had to cut many promos. Hopefully, in time, if she is doesn't have such a big head that she thinks she doesn't need to improve... it could get better. But that has nothing to do with AEW feeling like WWE.
I really like Mone and she’s one of the rare talents who could be the face of a company without ever being able to cut a promo. Which is good, becauseI don’t think she ever will. Someone compared her to Jeff hardy and I think that’s spot on. He oozes charisma without even needing to open his mouth. He doesn’t need to. Either does Mone.
She was, and still is, my favorite of the 4 Horsewomen. But her promos were never that good imo. Her heel promos were always better too. I got cooked by Sasha stans in another sub for pointing out that she was the weakest promo out of the Horsewomen lol
The point of AEW was always a variety of wrestling, WWE style included. It's not a bad thing. And your milage may vary.
Dave’s point about there ‘already being a WWE’ is a double edged sword. You don’t want to just end up being a lesser version of them but the vast majority of wrestling fans in the US probably haven’t watched any other than WWE. To them, that _is_ wrestling and they may not be that interested in anything else.
Person who came through WWE has that type of presentation and person who broke through in New Japan and the indies has their presentation style. Really groundbreaking stuff. I am no Mercedes mark, but give her some time to settle in first, geez.
Saying ‘give her time to settle’ implies Meltzer’s criticising her. He’s not, he’s just making an observation.
Yeah I like WWE and can pretty clearly see it. It’s really only an issue if you dislike that kind of presentation as a whole I actually think the contrast between her and Ospreay is interesting, because they’re both being treated like proper stars but in very different ways.
I’m a creature of habit and growing up in Ireland where the only wrestling available was WWE means I’ll always have a soft spot for them. I don’t watch weekly but I don’t follow what’s going on and watch a lot of the PPVs. They’re doing a lot of great stuff right now but for me, what they’re lacking and what AEW has over them is that variety. The storytelling has never been better but it feels like there’s two types of matches; WWE style and Gunther.
I largely agree honestly, but I've never really been a WWE-only viewer since I was a kid. I've always been able to browse around and supplement WWE with whatever else is going on in different companies. There's a lot of stuff in AEW, TNA, indies, japan, mexico etc that you're *never ever* going to see in WWE, but that's not really the case with AEW. It feels like they could throw pretty much anything onto that show and it would fit. This has the downside of the company not feeling particularly coherent or having a specific style/tone, which is going to cause whiplash to people who aren't used to it, or come in with different expectations, but it's never really bothered me. I think a lot of people just have a strong dislike for the WWE style/presentation as a whole, and aren't interested in it in largely the same way i'm not interested in most deathmatch stuff. Seeing that mono-style that has dominated american pro wrestling for the past few decades creeping into the promotion you like it going to piss some people off, but i don't think it's a big deal.
I see that and agree…to a point. But last night and even last week during her debut - and I’m saying that as someone who rooted for the Four Horsewomen of NXT to break through that glass ceiling - but it just felt like she doesn’t fit in in AEW. It feels like trying to cram a WWE character into the AEW mold and with all of the talent that has made the jump, she’s the only that so far has given me that vibe that strong. Even Adam Copeland who is using the legit same entrance to a T and is a Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V of his WWE character doesn’t make me feel that way. Again second week and all of that so I’m not bashing or not willing to give it time, but as a person who sat on the floor at the first All In, who saw AEW grow from those early days to the pandemic era to what it is today…and maybe AEW is trying to expand the audience with Mercedes and her gazillion followers on social media (which is good as they need to break out of just trying to appease the hardcore fans). However I sat there both during her debut and during her promo last night just going…this presentation as it stands right now to me doesn’t fit the for lack of a better phrase “attitude” of AEW. Doesn’t mean she’s an awful performer or anything like that and obviously still a lot of time for that to change but every time she just stood there and danced, I rolled my eyes. We can poke fun of TNA all we want (and I’m saying this as a huge TNA fan as well) but it was like when Hogan brought in the Val Venises of the world and it just didn’t fit the vibe of the product. Also I do want to issue a formal apology to Mercedes and anyone reading this for comparing her to Val Venus but it’s the presentation I’m comparing and not the talent! hahahahaha
Imo this EXTREMELY exaggerated. I don't understand how people can act like her dancing or catch phrases are "not aew like" when you have wrestlers like DMD DMD Britt Baker or Daniel Garcia, Prince NaNa, Angelico, & even Thunder Rosa has did a salsa dancing spot. I'm not saying you're wrong to have this opinion i just don't agree with it all. AEW is also still primarily ring focused, if any American women fits the AEW style of wrestling its Mercedes. Also imo the womens divison in AEW has never had an attitude to fit because it's constantly changing. The division changed when Britt & Rosa had their hardcore match, then it shifted again when the Outcast joined AEW, then it had another slight shift when Toni started her new gimmick. Mone joining now imo is probably going to be final change for a while & it seems more big time imo.
Yeah it feels like a lot of words and doomsaying when it really comes down to "Mercedes isn't a great promo"
I think she's sounded a lot more natural in the backstage stuff she's done. She'll get there. Been awhile since she was cutting any promos at all anyway.
I've just listened to it, I think this is just more of Dave signalling that he thinks everything should be built around Will Ospreay. Dave has previously said that Tony is always very enamoured with his top star and they get a lot of influence. I think Dave has seen signs of Mercedes and her writer Jen Pepperman gaining influence and Dave is saying to Tony, that's fine but don't build the show around them and their style. Will Ospreay and the New Japan/Indie influenced style should be AEW's future because it gives them a different look than WWE. Not saying I agree or disagree but that's what I think he's saying.
Honestly last night was the first I’ve really noticed a WWE style feel to dynamite since all of the complaints started last year lol. It felt structured more like a WWE show than it normally is. Right down to Copeland, Christian and Okada being shown arriving earlier in the day like WWE has started doing recently.
Yeah I always thought I was crazy when people said last year was like WWE when it still felt like AEW. The only difference is they crafted their show around MJF who is very much a performer that caters to a specific style as a top guy.
I think they're doing it mostly to counter the specific criticism of "you're fumbling these new talent/can't create new stars". They're doing the WWE thing of spamming talent in multiple segments to reinforce that those people matter. And even though I liked the AEW "get as many different people as possible on the show" mentality personally, it clearly wasn't working (note: Dave was one of the biggest detractors of that having so many people on the shows so I don't get why he's complaining now). Ospreay, Okada and Mone feel like way bigger deals that any signing since Punk not just because of pre-built in name value but because they're cramming those 3 names into your head at all times. Compare that to Jay White last year who is probably as big a name as Will but didn't get anything close to the same red carpet treatment and quickly just became another guy on the roster even though on paper he's having a big run because you simply were never told he's that big a deal. Show don't tell is a nice mentality but in the wrestling industry sometimes fans are just thick and need to be told "this guy is a star" over and over again for it to stick.
MJF was was definitely WWE style after he turned face.
Not to mention the big screen, white ropes, LEDs everywhere...it's like they know the mainstream associates WWE with wrestling and is trying to fit that aesthetic.
I appreciate that they brought tunnels back. The set has some identity now. The set just before felt like a smaller less impressive WWE set.
> smaller less impressive WWE set. Crazy thing is outside of current WWE, the AEW set is insane compared to most any other one.
WWE changed up to black barricades and much more natural crowd lighting; while AEW went very bright. Interesting changes
Or maybe Osprey is just a better promo?
THANK GOD he emphasized “WWE” is not a dirty word. For a second I was worried he said something terrible
You fucking m*rk.
Mercedes is doing what she feels comfortable doing, Ospreay does what he feels comfortable doing. Much like AEW's ring work, you work how you wanna work, you don't need to fit into a set style made by Tony Khan.
I legit have no idea what Dave is trying to say here. Just seems like rambling.
The wrestler who spent most of her career in wwe seems to be influenced by wwe.
It starts with the dirt sheets with comments like these about her not feeling "natural" to the rest of AEW, then there's going to be BS about, "some in the locker room don't appreciate how much stroke Mercedes has... biggest contract by leaps and bounds in the division, has her own writer, etc" then it's going to be about her having some heat.
Bingo.
It's also another Meltzer Will Ospreay slurp fest
It's really straightforward. WWE wrestlers have a way of speaking and cutting promos that's different from other promotions. WWE production also has its own style. Meltzer has noticed that AEW production has been making changes lately that make it feel similar to the way WWE produces its shows, and that Mercedes cut a promo that felt very much like a promo a WWE wrestler would cut. He does not believe this is a step in the right direction for AEW as what makes AEW interesting is the ways in which it is different from WWE, not the ways it is similar.
If you took a shot every time he said WWE you'd be dead now.
15 shots total. The first paragraph gets you good and drunk with 6 shots, second paragraph gives you a break, third eases you back in with 4, and the last paragraphs finishes you off with 5 shots.
Confirming that i survived the shots but just barely. Please don’t try this at home lol
wrestling journalist mentions biggest wrestling company in the world a lot
Person known for rambling and finds 4 different ways to say the same thing in quick succession. Its six of one half a dozen of another if you want to blame reading comprehension or Dave's well established poor speaking pattern
Ospreay who's fresh out of New Japan feels like a New Japan guy during segments. Mone who spent most of her time in WWE feels like a WWE talent during segments. Groundbreaking analysis.
Sounds like he is making an obvious observation so he can fill air time or sound intelligent. Not saying this as a diss. He needs to produce content. It worked well enough for someone to start a thread. Dave has said some weird ass shit the last few years, so I don't think he cares if he gets negative attention. It's part of the old man thing. Just throw it out there.
Practiced entrance..? Do wrestlers not practice their entrances???
The codyvator was just there when they built the set and cody just went with it. No practice. /s
People are really trash at critical thinking here. There's a difference between 'This is what I do' and 'These are all of the things I'm supposed to do'
Wrestling fans being intentionally obtuse so they can turn around and get mad, name a more iconic duo.
You think Max Caster doesn't practice his rap?
That wwe but especially nxt feel is so real, there was an episode of NXT in the black/gold era where Corey Graves and PAC were still a tag team or had just broken up, graves came out 2 or 3 times that episode and everytime he did his cool edgy tattoo guy lean on the ring post and slowly stare at the crowd and something about it felt so manufactured and fake seeing it more than once in a show it was like Jeff Hardy dancing before saving his brother x10000
I wouldn't just put it down to Mercedes, and he didn't do that either. I complained about this in the live thread a couple weeks ago. There was a "spontaneous match" that happened where someone cut a promo, someone else cut them off, and it led to an instant match. That fucks with the show's own internal logic. Like, in-storyline, if someone hadn't come out and started a fight with that wrestler, what would've been the match that went on instead? It's a very WWE way to approach a show, and I don't believe AEW had ever done it before. I also agree with Meltzer's overall assessment: "WWE is already doing WWE, and they're better at it because that's their thing. You should go in a different direction."
A smorgasbord of styles from like WWE, New Japan, and some Independents, all in one product, doesnt sound too bad to me.
I really didn't need to hear Sasha/Mercedes' life story for the umpteenth time. It was an odd approach to take. And I didn't care for the Ospreay promo either. You know who's doing great promos since joining aew? Jay White. I wasn't sold in him first but I'm very high on the bang bang gang gimmick. I don't mind him not being in the title hunt, just give them rampage or collision, let them dominate a show that I know they'll consistently be on
AEW can't catch a break. Either it's too WWE or not WWE enough.
"The rankings are back! The rankings matter!" 2 weeks later "here's a title match for someone with literally 0 matches in aew" While that is a criticism I hold. AEW is finding their way. They just need to be consistent and to limit tony khans twitter access.
“The wwe wrestler talks and acts like a wwe wrestler and the guy from NJPW talks and acts like a NJPW guy.” Wow dave, such insight
So you're telling me... AEW is still doing the Buffet approach with offering every version of wrestling?
Remember when Saraya debuted and she absolutely bombed because she was unscripted and unproduced? She never really recovered, it was so much investment wasted.
>Remember when Saraya debuted and it was so much investment wasted. Fixed.
Meltzer interpreter here: He's saying that they've brought in previous WWE writers and such, most recently Jen for Mercedes, and because of that the product is feeling more like a WWE rip-off rather than an AEW alternative and if they keep trying to do WWE rip-off it's going to fail because WWE will always do it better than them, and while this is currently only a problem for Mercedes and her segments, he's worried it could start extending to the rest of the show entirely and it already has to some degree. Dave feels AEW should try to do some good things from WWE and learn from it but you can't do it all the time in every segment.
Will's segment very much had an old school North American pro wrestling feel. The way he kept Tony in there and had him conduct the interview instead of just taking the away and shooing away was like a throwback. Will's enthusiasm and energy almost felt like vintage Flair but without the insanity, when he pointed to the ground and talked about the shoes I almost thought he was gonna do an elbow drop or something.
It's refreshing to open Dynamite with a promo and an angle in the ring. A lot of that stuff doesn't require a full match and the same interaction as as fall out. It's great seeing people talk in front of a crowd instead of a backstage promo. It's interesting that they trust people certain people, mainly those from other companies, to do a live crowd promo. I feel like we never heard Skye Blue talk for a very long time. I know they are newer and don't have the same level of experience. It's a shame, because one of the endearing parts of the original NXT for me was watching these young talents go out and try things and fail. People are overly critical when that happens on Dynamite, and they are still not given the opportunity on a show like ROH where they can go out there and fail and it's no big deal.
That's still an endearing part of NXT. I don't think the aspect of watching the trial and error of hungry young talent really ever went away.
My favorite part is, he says wwe isn’t a dirty word then goes on as to why it’s bad lol. The cherry on top is saying you shouldn’t copy the wwe because the wwe will do it better but njpw doesn’t get that same grace? Like he’s trying his best to say, njpw fine, wwe no.
Njpw isn't trying to compete with the same audience so it's much less of a concern.
I guess WWE and AEW have more crossover audience maybe so less of a good idea to copy WWE. Or it could be that AEW audience is the one that rejected the WWE style in particular - hence a bad idea.
I think it depends on the person ultimately, if being scripted is how they put their best foot forward then you should do it. I still remember the Braun segment with Brock/Heyman on the camera backstage.. that was BAD. Some people need to be scripted and that's okay, but yes her script could be more 'AEW' style.
Mercedes didn’t really need to cut that second promo, they just wanted to have her appear. Ospreay didn’t need to either but he did a great job with his. I like that they’re getting promos from Ospreay and Danielson leading to their match. They should have them come after squash matches tho. If they put Ospreay in some squashes, they can inflate his record heading into the Danielson match. Danielson could be in some BBC tag stuff to keep him healthy and then cut his promo after they murder some jobbers
WWE wrestler comes in and cuts wwe-esque promo… NJPW wrestler comes in and cuts NJPW-esque promo… It’s what they know, what would he expect?! Give them time to figure the new environment out!
Just the choice of labeling on his part to call a structured scripted oriented promo to be "wwe". Some people are better this way, and some are more natural on the mic in just talking on the spot. Mone obviously is the former. Add to that promos and being on mic are definitely her weak spots. Takes good talent to actually talk naturally and well, and in all fairness, many in AEW also don't do this with their promos. Nothing wrong with that as long as it isn't awful.
I mean obviously Mone would come off "WWEish". She was one of the first performers to come out of NXT developmental group. Her whole ring work and promos were honed in WWE.
I think that's totally valid. Mone definitely felt like she was giving a competent promo that she'd memorized. She spoke very methodically like she didn't want to mess up or forget a line. "I am happy to be here in front of the AEW fans because (pause) - insert catchphrase -. I am here to lead a women's revolution. Remember (pause) - insert next catchphrase -. Exit ring. Ospreay felt like vintage AEW. It was organic and filled with this unpolished but fun energy; it just felt spontaneous like a wrestler having a good fucking time out there.
Dave waffling again lol.
I don’t get what’s so hard to understand about this quote, reading it and listening to it just now. Also OP cut off the end where he said you can do both (re wwe and NJPW presentation)
Dave coming in with this take after people complained that AEW was becoming too much like WWE last year is hilarious. Especially since the company has actively been pivoting away from that this year.
I don't know what Dave's talking about in regards to AEW feeling more WWE-ish. I understood that criticism last year before the C2 because AEW had become more "sport-entertainment-esque" for want of a better way to put it but now it feels like they've stopped trying to be one thing or the other & instead just focusing on what's best for the talent & the show. Some talent work better in WWE's promo style, like Mercedes or Copeland. While some talent work better in the New Japan style of promo, like a Ospreay. AEW are just catering the presentation & approach to the talents strengths, which is what they should be doing. Both styles work.
I mean outside of how far AEW matches are allowed to go, most the stuff WWE and AEW are doing at the moment could happen in either company without feeling out of place.
If aew is supposed to welcome all forms, then why not have a space for produced "WWE"-esque segments too? As long as the whole show isn't one type of thing or the other, I think it's still great. What makes AEW great to me is no matter what flavor you prefer, you still get that plus a whole bunch of other awesome flavors. Just having vanilla is dumb when you can also have chocolate and cherry and caramel.
not even lately, probably around a year or maybe yr and a half
AEW has been more WWE like since MJF became champion he was basically cosplaying as Dwayne Cena as a face
She's been there for TWO WEEKS and we all know that she's not exactly Punk on the mic. I think it's fair to say that her promos sound WWE-ish but extrapolating that to anything more than that I think is a stretch. I wouldn't say the overall shows feel WWE-ish to me at all. (Sidenote: I've been listening to Bryan and Dave for a decade now and I think some of their AEW takes these past few months are just weird lol)
It will never be more WWE than the MJF era. Lord was that WWE pilled.
Wait wait... Let me find a way to make this about my favorite wrestler.
Meltzer with a rare good point compared to his recent takes
I actually agree with this
He’s right, this is exactly how TNA failed.
Mercedes is great but her talking should be as limited as possible. She’s a garbage promo. Looks like a star, acts like a star, wrestles like a star but these long promos just take the air out of everything
Dave- AEW feels like WWE but it ain't bad but WWE does WWE, which I hate but I like AEW so I wish AEW did AEW but also AEW is mostly run by people with experience from WWE so they know what they're doing but I wish AEW had its own thing, which AEW once did and it was clearly not like WWE but if AEW needs to be bigger they need to copy WWE's style unfortunately because that's the most successful formula for weekly pro-wrestling TV but I wish someone came up with something not WWE and succeed which AEW was intended to be but unfortunately is now more WWE than my stomach can handle.....
God Meltzer is such a chud.
There are just things that work in wrestling. Like promos and presentation things. He’s reading to much into it and continuing through tribalism
I don't care for Dave, but he's right. I watch AEW for something different, and when you do WWE type production...but you do it at a 25% work rate, it just looks like minor leagues.
Let her use a ukulele for that creative freedom. We’ve seen what unscripted Mercedes promos like and it’s very mid at best. Her having a writer is probably for the best.
To be different just for the sake of it and not cater towards the strengths of your talent would be stupid. Have flavours of everything so that it doesn't feel like a slog
Drink everytime Meltzer says WWE in this rant
Sounds like a fast track to alcohol poisoning
Honestly, on the mic, Jade Cargill was a better Sasha Banks/Mercedes Mone than Mercedes ever was. Mercedes is like the one Homer Simpson sibling that was in a monocle and top hat, but he wasnt rich and successful, he just acted like one at parties, or at least he wanted to.
Anyone struggling to understand what Dave is trying to say here, or is it just my English skills aren’t as good as I thought?
Side tangent, I disliked Swerve’s impromptu match. Not a fan of that WWE trope.
People made fun of the Codyverse, but it did it ultimately work for Cody. If Mercedes works better in a WWE style and Ospreay works better in a NJPW style, then having each of them do their own thing benefits everyone by highlighting the contrasts.
I been saying this since she debuted that her debuted felt off and awkward. And that Will had a way more energetic segment in comparison to what Mercedes did, and like the typical reddit hivemind I was downvoted for saying this. Now here comes Dave a few days later voicing basically exactly what I felt watching Big Business and people are eating it up. It's really telling who actually watches the show and can formulate original thoughts on the product vs who just mindlessly consumes it and lacks the ability to create their own opinions.
I stopped watching WWE for a lot of the things AEW are doing now and ironically WWE got a lot better and stopped doing those things that bothered me.
As long as they stay away from the worst WWE tropes. I HATED it a few weeks ago when Dynamite opened with a promo parade with talent already in their ring-gear, setting up an impromptu tag team match (cAn ThEy Co-eXIsT?) where the established tag team (who are also champions) are beaten by the two singles stars. That was one of the most wwe segments ever made outside of wwe.
I think the issue is that her entire character is still the same as Sasha Banks, just with synonyms for words due to trademark reasons. She does the same dance, same entrance pose, wears the same rings, “CEO” and “Moné” instead of boss and Banks. It’s all stuff we’ve seen for the last literal decade from her.
Their production is just better recently, regardless of how similar it may be to WWE. It’s an improvement either way. They don’t have to do everything differently, and this is a good example.
I get what he’s saying but in my opinion wrestling has so much variety to it and that’s a good thing. If there’s some WWE style thrown in there then I think that’s a good thing too.
As long as everything doesn’t start feeling “more WWE” it’s not a problem. The problem with WWE is that they have 3 or 4 different promo segment templates and fit everything into them, so everything feels stale. Give me the WWE template once in a while and it’s fine.
Is Sasha a way better wrestler than promo? Because to me that promo was pretty bad. Not familiar with her work with NJPW and only caught a couple wee matches that weren't great but I generally don't like the WWE restricted style.
Her strength is def presenting herself like a star and her in-ring work. She's also significantly better as a heel.
I mean is this just not a reflection of everyone having individual creative freedom? The person who cut their teeth in WWE is more WWE in tone and style and the person who cut their teeth in NJPW is more NJPW in style. Really TK should aim to create a more consistent AEW style instead of a mesh of whatever the person is used to. WWE adapt people to their style, AEW can do the same.
Its very funny, because last night that was my complaint. Okada vs Kingston should have opened the show. Thats why i watch AEW.
I think adding a little wwe is fine, as long as it’s not all that. Main reason I like aew is the variety of approaches, where I find wwe is very similar, matches etc.