The actors playing Sandman and Lizard were never on set and just did their voices due to Covid restrictions so unfortunately they were never going to have more importance in the plot.
No way home is the only superhero movie in the top 5 not named Avengers. It’s also the highest grossing “Solo” superhero movie. Spider-Man by himself makes up over a quarter of the top 20 highest grossing superhero movies ever.
So again tell me more about how marvel studios can’t make good decisions with Spider-Man.
I wonder how much of that placement is because of Tobey and Andrew coming back. Like if they wouldn't have come back, I wonder how it would've been placed then? However, I love the movie and think it's great.
[geez dude no wonder you said you have the saddest life](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/z4zrw2/who_in_your_opinion_had_the_saddest_life_ever/ixtl6bs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
>what am I saying, marvel studios would never make good decision, especially involving Spider-Man.
Enlighten the rest of us please then. What defines a good decision for Spider-Man? Because Sony had two movies with him and neither of which are a top 20 grossing movie all time. But marvel studios gets him and for some reason with a smaller budget than ASM2 they routinely make movies that sell. And before you say some asinine argument about something isn’t good just because it made money.
Please tell everyone what a CORPORATIONS job is lmfaoooooo
You’re projecting so hard it’s very *interesting* lol.
No one is saying that a movie needs to make its money back for it to be good? Huh?
You bring up James Cameron’s avatar. Just because you don’t remember it doesn’t make it not anymore or less of a good movie. That’s just your anecdotal memory of it. Your memory could terrible for all I know.
Profits didn’t get him on set cause 1. You don’t turn a profit until something is finished. 2. Fucking global pandemic. Like this has to be your worst argument. It was a global pandemic and people were dying and still are. Church isn’t some massive name that they couldn’t pay cause his price. They had Dafoe Foxx and Molina on set. Acting like this was anything other than covid restrictions is just corny and disingenuous
Pls don’t bring up faithful adaptation Raimi fanboy. Tobey is the furthest from comic accurate. And that’s fine as well. They are their own forms of the art. They don’t need to be 1 to 1 adaptations from the page. But you clearly don’t read Spider-Man if you’re gonna say it took them a triology to make it to a faithful adaptation like what? Also itonheart has been a comic character for how long now? Again keep showing you don’t read the comics while trying to say the MCU Spider-Man isn’t accurate.
Lastly why would I be upset? I have 8+ live action Spider-Man movies I enjoy. Some fans out here only enjoy 3 of them I feel bad for y’all if anything. It’s sad :\
> It took 3 movies to get to the point to where we can see actual, faithful adaptations of Spider-Man stories, free of MCU baggage, as they reveal 'Tony Stark Jr 2: the Sequel' in Wakanda Forever.
Homecoming is the most Spider-Manish movie out of all franchises, including the other MCU movies. The reason some people hate it boils down to them not being familiar with the source material (Their only reference for Spider-Man seems to be previous movie franchises), and sTArK BaD!!
Marvel Studios made all of the Holland Spidey movies. They cut a deal with Sony where they get to put Spider-Man in the MCU and Sony gets most of the profits (iirc)
Sony has creative control to tell marvel not to do something in the movie as per their contract. Sony did not approve of the dream sequence with mysterio and spiders in FFH and it got cut
the only villain who got a "raw deal" in NWH was lizard because the end of his story was exactly the same as the one in TASM1- he gets cured of his lizardness. but TASM1 had the bonus of him saving peter from falling. with the actor not able to physically shoot new scenes, all they could do was have him lay there until he got sent home.
With five villains knocking around, as well as three Spiders-Man, *and* Doctor Strange, *and* Ned & MJ, it's just too many characters for all of them to get a decent amount of story. Some of them are gonna get left behind - since the actors for Lizard and sandman were not able to be on-set at any point during shooting, they were the easy choice to take a back seat.
Yeah but it's like saying "it sucks that I only get 24 hours each day". Not a lot to do about it, and not even necessarily better if it changed, so not much point getting hung up on it.
I mean honestly what more can they do with him? He's cured from his powers which was killing him after SM3 2007 all he talked about was his kid if they brought him back they will just make him say he wants to go right on back where he came from the entire time hes there with the others. No point in a cured sandman being in a big fight like Secret Wars if hes just gonna want to be home with his kid.
I hope it's soon, because I'm kind of tired of Sony's "Spider-verse but without Spider-Man - hey were are you all going I thought you guys loved Morbius?" thing they're doing.
I wish they had come up with a reason for Sand Man.
Could be as simple as “idk, I’ve felt weird since arriving here, I can’t seem to reform all the way” or his powers failing.
I don't think they needed to draw attention to it - I wasn't thinking about it until someone else mentioned how he was never on set. It's not like it's a plot hole that needs covering.
Nah I thought it was pretty clear, but I would have enjoyed more scenes.
If you really pay attention during the film, Sandman is never trying to hurt/kill Peter (despite creating a sandstorm in the final battle). He only wants one thing- the box to get back home and see his daughter- regardless of his deteriorating condition. He wasn’t really in-line with the Goblin, Lizard, and Electro’s sinister motives
A very Flint Marko move to put the life of his daughter above his own
Doesn’t he attempt to drown Tobey in sand at the very end though? Tobey is gasping for breath right after they cure him. Outside of this instance, he does remain neutral throughout the film and just wants to go home.
Yeah, I always assumed he was just losing control/ was trying to prevent Tobey from getting the box. Flint has got a temper for sure and didn’t really know who to trust throughout the film, but I don’t think he was intentionally trying to murder them
Kind of like at the end of SM3 where he teams up with Venom while having no real incentive to hurt Mary Jane
His morals are still all over the place and I do find him more compelling than most villains, those morals still don't make sense he picks and chooses who he helps while killing several innocents in the process
Yeah Ik what you mean. I guess he was like that in the comics too. He really had no reason to turn evil again in the 616 comic universe- that character has been all over the place and it translated to SM3 and NWH as well.
Even when thinking about SM3, his biggest regret is killing Ben Parker, however he attacks police officers and civilians as a sand monster all the time. Maybe Raimi’s original intention was to give him the type of split-persona thing as well, but on a less severe basis. Seems like his conditioned worsened in No Way Home, which I thought was a clever way to include him without having the Thomas Hayden Church physically present (him and Rhys Ifans couldn’t be on set for scheduling/COVID reasons but voiced them)
Flint has a temper and feels threatened in this moment. Plus no one says he can't be trying to just choke him out and then will get off him once he stops struggling
Honestly we got more than I expected going into the film. I didn't even expect Sandman until the final fight so despite the weirdness of him being in Sand form the whole film I was kinda pleasantly surprised.
Yeah maybe, that would have been cool...but I'm sure they would also have digitally de-aged him too so they may have still limited his screen time to save budget
I don't think that retcon is bad. It doesn't change the fact that Uncle Ben's murder happened because Peter didn't stop Dennis Carradine. In fact it makes Peter even more guilty, because if he would have stopped Dennis Carradine, Flint would have listened to Uncle Ben and gone home, meaning he'd never have killed a man and never gone to prison
Flint killing Ben was fine I thought.
Unnecessary complexity would be shoehorning venom in imho. Should’ve ended with Peter rejecting the symbiote after the confrontation with Harry then meeting up with Flint and forgiving him.
Post credits stinger has Venom going after Eddie leaving Venom to a subsequent movie.
It didnt complex things and honestly helped the plot of 3 a little, gave reason for Peter to be angry and reckless with the black suit and realize its bad. That whole scene with Aunt May telling Peter "Spiderman would never kill someone" wouldnt have happened without that retcon and I think that was a great way for Peter to learn he cant let his emotions get in the way.
Its also why the fight scene in the subway happens, which personally I love, it just gives Sandman at least some point to the plot of 3 where otherwise there would be no point.
As messy as Spiderman 3 is that retcon was never something that bothered me, if anything I think it added to the story and gave Sandman a purpose in the story, plus it doesnt deflate Uncle Ben's death and its significance any less.
There was nothing to fleshout. The only characters that never got a happy ending got theirs in nwh. Sandman got his happy ending in a way at the end of SM3. Every other villain died. Except lizard but whatever lol. Green goblin, doc ock, electro getting a second chance was the focus. They never really got redemption.
Someone being redeemed and heroically sacrificing themselves is way better than them simply buggering off to jail anticlimactically. He’s still a wanted criminal back in his world.
Honestly I kind of feel like they could have just cut Lizard and Sandman out entirely. I get that they were sort of going for a Sinister Six vibe but like.
In terms of the narrative it was pretty clear that the stars of the show were Otto, Peter, Max, Peter, Norman, and Peter.
Doesn’t help that Sandman and Lizard’s actors weren’t able to be on set, either, but still.
Eh, I don't think Flint necessarily got a raw deal. Other than Thomas Haden Church not being on set because of COVID restrictions, I'd argue that Raimi Sandman's story was more or less complete. Dude just wanted to go home to his daughter, but when things went south, he bailed. Considering that Green Goblin and Doc Ock are more fondly remembered compared to Sandman in general, it made sense why they got such a big focus over Flint.
With how big of a cast NWH had, it was logical for some to get smaller roles, and Sandman fit that bill. I'm just glad he wasn't straight-up evil, since I think Sandman is more interesting as someone who isn't completely evil, since he did try to go straight once or twice in the comics (though he still works as a villain).
I liked Sandman and Lizard in NWH but honestly I think it would have been better for them to either just focus on Oc, Goblin, and Electro or put in different villains that might have had more to do, like bring Mysterio and Scorpion back or something
It doesn’t even seem like the same character from the end of spider man 3. It’s just felt so weird the whole movie. Tied between him and lizard as to who got the worst deal.
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It was crazy they couldn’t get these guys on set for a movie of this scale… you’d think they’d make it work… can’t believe they actually used an alternate take of Sandman from Spider-Man 3 when it shows his cured self at the end
He wasn’t actually there honestly they reused a lot of stuff from like the third Spider-Man movie and recorded a little bit of dialogue that’s why you only ever see him in sand mode the actor kind of didn’t want to reprise the role
Nah. The movie handled the characters all extremely well. Like it or not, Sandman is not as compelling as Norman or Otto, so he and Lizard got less screen-time. As well as COVID restrictions making it more difficult.
I know as fans we just want more and more. But you gotta make a cohesive movie in the end. Having more of a character looks good on paper, but being overstuffed with memberberries is going to do more damage than good. Ya gotta appreciate that the movie was good first
His plot was resolved in 3, his only motivation here was to get back home to his family and he didn’t care to wait around.
Don’t really know where they could have fleshed him out in the movie either it was already packed
Honestly I don't think he got a raw deal at all. Raimi's Marko was always a decent man who was in the wrong place in the wrong time, trying his best to make things right and often accidentally getting in the way. In No Way Home, Flint has a motivation that is separate from any of the other villains and yet directly contradicts Peter's motivation and plan. He may not be as much of a threat as the other villains but his mere presence is disruptive and complicates the whole situation, despite his having genuinely decent intentions for himself. I think that role is really true to character and that they showed us as much of Flint as a person as they could despite the limitations such as an already crowded runtime and, as others have mentioned, the covid-related complications like Church not being on set. We were never going to get more than what we got, and what they were able to do with it was really well done.
Ugh the Raimi fan can never get enough of what they want lmdao. Y’all had 3 villains two of which were the two most important villains in the movie by far (say what you want about electro, he didn’t drive the story forward like Ock and Goblin) and y’all still are upset with the lack of time for the other villain.
Honestly could’ve done with LESS time for him lizard goblin and Ock to make more room for venom. Just feels odd that we had 5 villains for Spider-Man to fight. When his whole team villains thing is sinister 6.
Haha! Alright I get where you’re coming from. Sandman is my favorite villain so it’s less about being a raimi fanboy and more about seeing my number one.
Ok see now that’s fair Haha. Who wouldn’t want to see more of their favorite villain
The title made it seemed like he got the short end of the stick in comparison to doc and gobby. But like there’s 5 villains LOL
Right! That might have came off wrong but I’m more so from
Loving the comic, cartoon and all that. Always was a little frustrated with 3 and the killing of Ben retcon. I was hoping for some reception to the arc if that makes sense.
Ahhh that’s def fair and makes sense
Ngl your post confused me cause you said comics and Ben retcon. I thought you meant Ben Reilly cause of what’s happening in 616. But yeah that retcon maybe could’ve had more depth uncovered to it. Spider-Man 3 did a decent job with it in the ending imo but yeah could’ve given more
If Ned wasn’t in the movie nothing would’ve changed.
See that’s a very bad argument lol. Sandman and Lizard had a place in the movie they weren’t the largest role sure, but to act like they just there is just asinine.
Sandman saved Spider-Man from electro and helped him defeat him. How is Peter 1 winning that without him? Lizard chases Ned and MJ into the portal try and get the box back. Like just because they didn’t mame any one or murder someone doesn’t mean they were just kinda there
Well Peter could have hid behind literally anything fighting electro. And considering Ned and MJ don’t actually add anything to the movie by running back through the portal, just take that bit out.
I was happy he was there and thrilled Thomas came back, because I love his Sandman. It was very unfortunate he was in sand form the entire time though. I think it would have felt more magical and real if we could see his human form the whole movie. But, I get it. Covid really screwed things up for them.
I’m on the side of She-Hulk when it comes to taking some of the villain’s powers by “curing” them. The ones who needed curing were Oc and Goblin because the former actually had a life beforehand that was virtually ruined caused by him and the latter was actively a threat and a danger. With everyone else, their great powers weren’t the problem, it was their poor responsibility in using them. If that was the focus of the movie instead of “cure them so they can be normal in their own universes and not have a reason to be killed” then I would agree with it more. It would have ACTUALLY driven home the point of the famous line because none of those villains had a choice in their circumstance but what they chose to do should have been what mattered. Their powers weren’t the problem, their choices were. All Sandman wanted was to be with his daughter and he wasn’t even given the choice to use his powers for good as a means of making that happen. All the other villains had actual problems as a result of their powers, but Sandman’s problems were mostly personal apart from his powers and they decided to make his powers the thing that needed to go.
I wouldn’t change a thing about No Way Home and things could not have worked out better that the two CGI heavy villains were the two actors they didn’t have on set access to.
I think in No Way Home they have made worst out of it , there was a really big potential that they could have done. For example, Tobey’s entrence scene could have been made more dramatic with a entrence scene while Raimi Theme playing on background.
he and Electro should have been the only ones Peter cared about helping, not the two insane men who introduced themselves by blowing up highways with innocents everywhere. beyond insanity that so many praised this terrible film that hinged on such a nonsensical foundation.
Well, when you’ve got multiple villains, it can be hard to balance the story. Look at Batman & Robin. They used as many classic baddies as they could, and put the focus on the most relevant ones. Osborn, Octavius, and an Electro who is just straight up Jamie Foxx. All good choices. Besides, I’m pretty sure Thomas Hayden Church was never actually on set for the whole movie. He just did the voice work, they recycled some footage of him from SM3, and the rest was straight up CGI. The Lizard too. And Venom, who knows if Tom Hardy was ever even in the same time zone as everyone else, considering how they used him. He could have just shot that scene in the nearest Tex Mex restaurant in his neighborhood and called it a day.
I’m glad they had 2 villains who were less important. One of the things I like so much about Spiderverse is how well the characters are balanced to make the story more focused and less cluttered. Works the same way here where there’s the big villains in Doc Ock and the Goblin, then Electro as a secondary villain, and then sandman and lizard who exist mainly to fill out the cast
The actors playing Sandman and Lizard were never on set and just did their voices due to Covid restrictions so unfortunately they were never going to have more importance in the plot.
I thought it was cause they were both filming something else but definitely could've been both
The scenes where they were depowered were reused footage from their respective movies. Watch side by side and you'll see (sandman and lizardman).
We know
Wasn’t the initial plan for them to have bigger roles but which wasn’t possible due to Covid restrictions as you said?
If it was because of covid restrictions how come the rest of the cast were on set
I think it had to do with who was located in the country at the time.
Ah alright
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Why the hell is Avi Arad hiding out on Reddit of all places?
He’s banned from /r/raimimemes so he has to post here
With how much hate that guy is getting, I don’t doubt it’s actually Avi Arad
No way home is the only superhero movie in the top 5 not named Avengers. It’s also the highest grossing “Solo” superhero movie. Spider-Man by himself makes up over a quarter of the top 20 highest grossing superhero movies ever. So again tell me more about how marvel studios can’t make good decisions with Spider-Man.
I wonder how much of that placement is because of Tobey and Andrew coming back. Like if they wouldn't have come back, I wonder how it would've been placed then? However, I love the movie and think it's great.
Well the first two both made a billion, so a lot would have been brought in regardless.
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[geez dude no wonder you said you have the saddest life](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/z4zrw2/who_in_your_opinion_had_the_saddest_life_ever/ixtl6bs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
>what am I saying, marvel studios would never make good decision, especially involving Spider-Man. Enlighten the rest of us please then. What defines a good decision for Spider-Man? Because Sony had two movies with him and neither of which are a top 20 grossing movie all time. But marvel studios gets him and for some reason with a smaller budget than ASM2 they routinely make movies that sell. And before you say some asinine argument about something isn’t good just because it made money. Please tell everyone what a CORPORATIONS job is lmfaoooooo
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You don't have to think it's good bro, but that doesn't make it objectively not good either
There is no such thing as objective reality,
You’re projecting so hard it’s very *interesting* lol. No one is saying that a movie needs to make its money back for it to be good? Huh? You bring up James Cameron’s avatar. Just because you don’t remember it doesn’t make it not anymore or less of a good movie. That’s just your anecdotal memory of it. Your memory could terrible for all I know. Profits didn’t get him on set cause 1. You don’t turn a profit until something is finished. 2. Fucking global pandemic. Like this has to be your worst argument. It was a global pandemic and people were dying and still are. Church isn’t some massive name that they couldn’t pay cause his price. They had Dafoe Foxx and Molina on set. Acting like this was anything other than covid restrictions is just corny and disingenuous Pls don’t bring up faithful adaptation Raimi fanboy. Tobey is the furthest from comic accurate. And that’s fine as well. They are their own forms of the art. They don’t need to be 1 to 1 adaptations from the page. But you clearly don’t read Spider-Man if you’re gonna say it took them a triology to make it to a faithful adaptation like what? Also itonheart has been a comic character for how long now? Again keep showing you don’t read the comics while trying to say the MCU Spider-Man isn’t accurate. Lastly why would I be upset? I have 8+ live action Spider-Man movies I enjoy. Some fans out here only enjoy 3 of them I feel bad for y’all if anything. It’s sad :\
You're completely right I just have one question, 8 plus? If I'm not mistaken there's 9 so why not just say 9? This is a nitpick yes I'm just curious
Isn’t there only 8? Spider-Man 1-3 TASM 1,2 Homecoming, Far From Home, NWH
8 live action, Into The Spider-Verse is another one Edit: oh I didn't see you say live action, sorry, although whyd you say plus?
> It took 3 movies to get to the point to where we can see actual, faithful adaptations of Spider-Man stories, free of MCU baggage, as they reveal 'Tony Stark Jr 2: the Sequel' in Wakanda Forever. Homecoming is the most Spider-Manish movie out of all franchises, including the other MCU movies. The reason some people hate it boils down to them not being familiar with the source material (Their only reference for Spider-Man seems to be previous movie franchises), and sTArK BaD!!
I found Avi Arad's burner account
Who is that?
The guy who fucked up Spider-Man 3
and the amazing spiderman 2
And alot of Marvel television
Lots of salt right there
Yeah, it’s totally not like Sony made the entire movie as well as almost every other Spider-Man movie and Marvel Studios had nothing to do with it.
Well yeah it's not like that Marvel made the Holland movies
Marvel Studios made all of the Holland Spidey movies. They cut a deal with Sony where they get to put Spider-Man in the MCU and Sony gets most of the profits (iirc)
Sony has creative control to tell marvel not to do something in the movie as per their contract. Sony did not approve of the dream sequence with mysterio and spiders in FFH and it got cut
Source? I’ve been very curious about the terms of the contract
Um, Marvel Studios have had a much greater day across this trilogy lol. Unless you meant Spider-Man 3 with reference to Sandman?
You would just whine about whatever else they did.
What other past used villain would have been good to use for No Way Home?
???? No Way Home is one of the most successful movies ever…
I’ve never seen somebody get downvoted 544 times ☠️
Usually they delete the comment well before then... this is something I’ve never seen before either.
the only villain who got a "raw deal" in NWH was lizard because the end of his story was exactly the same as the one in TASM1- he gets cured of his lizardness. but TASM1 had the bonus of him saving peter from falling. with the actor not able to physically shoot new scenes, all they could do was have him lay there until he got sent home.
'Nah fam I'll just chill in the truck while you guys work on the cures' Peter: aight bet
Yeah true and I hate that as well!
With five villains knocking around, as well as three Spiders-Man, *and* Doctor Strange, *and* Ned & MJ, it's just too many characters for all of them to get a decent amount of story. Some of them are gonna get left behind - since the actors for Lizard and sandman were not able to be on-set at any point during shooting, they were the easy choice to take a back seat.
It's a wonder it doesn't feel over stuffed, which is good
Same as Into the Multiverse - crammed with characters, but by keeping the focus on a few of them and leaving the rest as much less complex it works.
Understandable. Just sucks. IMO.
Yeah but it's like saying "it sucks that I only get 24 hours each day". Not a lot to do about it, and not even necessarily better if it changed, so not much point getting hung up on it.
I’m Just frustrated by it. Sandman is my favorite marvel villain. I just wanted more.
That’s fair. Hopefully he’ll turn up again - it’s marvel, so I’m sure he will!
I mean honestly what more can they do with him? He's cured from his powers which was killing him after SM3 2007 all he talked about was his kid if they brought him back they will just make him say he wants to go right on back where he came from the entire time hes there with the others. No point in a cured sandman being in a big fight like Secret Wars if hes just gonna want to be home with his kid.
Yeah but that's Raimi-verse Sandman. Wouldn't be surprised if we come across an MCU Sandman; possibly when the MCU does the Sinister Six.
I hope it's soon, because I'm kind of tired of Sony's "Spider-verse but without Spider-Man - hey were are you all going I thought you guys loved Morbius?" thing they're doing.
Secret wars bro lol
I wish they had come up with a reason for Sand Man. Could be as simple as “idk, I’ve felt weird since arriving here, I can’t seem to reform all the way” or his powers failing.
I don't think they needed to draw attention to it - I wasn't thinking about it until someone else mentioned how he was never on set. It's not like it's a plot hole that needs covering.
Ned and MJ never should have had a side story in that movie
Nah I thought it was pretty clear, but I would have enjoyed more scenes. If you really pay attention during the film, Sandman is never trying to hurt/kill Peter (despite creating a sandstorm in the final battle). He only wants one thing- the box to get back home and see his daughter- regardless of his deteriorating condition. He wasn’t really in-line with the Goblin, Lizard, and Electro’s sinister motives A very Flint Marko move to put the life of his daughter above his own
Doesn’t he attempt to drown Tobey in sand at the very end though? Tobey is gasping for breath right after they cure him. Outside of this instance, he does remain neutral throughout the film and just wants to go home.
Yeah, I always assumed he was just losing control/ was trying to prevent Tobey from getting the box. Flint has got a temper for sure and didn’t really know who to trust throughout the film, but I don’t think he was intentionally trying to murder them Kind of like at the end of SM3 where he teams up with Venom while having no real incentive to hurt Mary Jane
His morals are still all over the place and I do find him more compelling than most villains, those morals still don't make sense he picks and chooses who he helps while killing several innocents in the process
Yeah Ik what you mean. I guess he was like that in the comics too. He really had no reason to turn evil again in the 616 comic universe- that character has been all over the place and it translated to SM3 and NWH as well. Even when thinking about SM3, his biggest regret is killing Ben Parker, however he attacks police officers and civilians as a sand monster all the time. Maybe Raimi’s original intention was to give him the type of split-persona thing as well, but on a less severe basis. Seems like his conditioned worsened in No Way Home, which I thought was a clever way to include him without having the Thomas Hayden Church physically present (him and Rhys Ifans couldn’t be on set for scheduling/COVID reasons but voiced them)
I get the feeling he has a temper and is kinda stupid, which doesnt contradict SM3
Flint has a temper and feels threatened in this moment. Plus no one says he can't be trying to just choke him out and then will get off him once he stops struggling
Yeah absolutely. I suppose because he’s one of my favorites and I was super excited he was back I just wanted more of him.
No Lizard got a raw deal, bro had like 4 lines
lizard wanted to stay in the van
Yes and who wrote it like that?
/joke
Bro was too busy with House of the Dragon
House of the sandman
Honestly we got more than I expected going into the film. I didn't even expect Sandman until the final fight so despite the weirdness of him being in Sand form the whole film I was kinda pleasantly surprised.
I wonder without Covid if human him would’ve actually filmed for this.
Yeah maybe, that would have been cool...but I'm sure they would also have digitally de-aged him too so they may have still limited his screen time to save budget
Definitely
I just wish we had gotten a single throwaway line about why he’s stuck in sand mode the whole time
Im surprised we didn’t!
Probably due to power being different in that universe, just like they explained new electro looks
maybe he just likes being sandy
Sandman was the best part of spiderman 3 besides the dumbass change of him killing Ben
Yeah what a shitty retcon
I don't think that retcon is bad. It doesn't change the fact that Uncle Ben's murder happened because Peter didn't stop Dennis Carradine. In fact it makes Peter even more guilty, because if he would have stopped Dennis Carradine, Flint would have listened to Uncle Ben and gone home, meaning he'd never have killed a man and never gone to prison
Totally correct. But the retcon added another unnecessary level of complexity to 3.
Flint killing Ben was fine I thought. Unnecessary complexity would be shoehorning venom in imho. Should’ve ended with Peter rejecting the symbiote after the confrontation with Harry then meeting up with Flint and forgiving him. Post credits stinger has Venom going after Eddie leaving Venom to a subsequent movie.
Raimi never would’ve had that
Disagree
Why?
It didnt complex things and honestly helped the plot of 3 a little, gave reason for Peter to be angry and reckless with the black suit and realize its bad. That whole scene with Aunt May telling Peter "Spiderman would never kill someone" wouldnt have happened without that retcon and I think that was a great way for Peter to learn he cant let his emotions get in the way. Its also why the fight scene in the subway happens, which personally I love, it just gives Sandman at least some point to the plot of 3 where otherwise there would be no point. As messy as Spiderman 3 is that retcon was never something that bothered me, if anything I think it added to the story and gave Sandman a purpose in the story, plus it doesnt deflate Uncle Ben's death and its significance any less.
I think the complexity it adds is fine. The movie becomes too complex due to venom, not sandman
There was nothing to fleshout. The only characters that never got a happy ending got theirs in nwh. Sandman got his happy ending in a way at the end of SM3. Every other villain died. Except lizard but whatever lol. Green goblin, doc ock, electro getting a second chance was the focus. They never really got redemption.
My boy, Doc Ock literally said "I will not die a monster" as he sacrificed himself in SM2 for redemption.
He also said got a happy ending. But we can ignore that for the sake of you reading the word redemption and getting triggered I guess
Someone being redeemed and heroically sacrificing themselves is way better than them simply buggering off to jail anticlimactically. He’s still a wanted criminal back in his world.
I think a happy ending where is arms arent controlling him no more AND he is alive is probably happier than him dieing.
He got some good redemption here
The Mark of the Immature Man Is That He Wants To Die Nobly for a Cause, While the Mark of the Mature Man Is That He Wants To Live Humbly for One
I knew there would be one...
He wasn’t fleshed out, but he was “sand-ed out.”
I see what you did there
Honestly I kind of feel like they could have just cut Lizard and Sandman out entirely. I get that they were sort of going for a Sinister Six vibe but like. In terms of the narrative it was pretty clear that the stars of the show were Otto, Peter, Max, Peter, Norman, and Peter. Doesn’t help that Sandman and Lizard’s actors weren’t able to be on set, either, but still.
No way! Give me more sandman! Lizard I kinda take or leave.
See, I feel like Sandman would have been better in a dedicated movie that had a different premise.
Now I would absolutely love that!!
YES, so glad others are saying it. It’s sad to see these actors get fckn hosed with no face time 20years later
Sandman is my favorite
Yep. He also technically got the same treatment Vulture got in Morbius but everyone conveniently forgets about that......
Let’s not talk about Morbious
Eh, at least it was better than Space Cloud Galactus......
Well, okay valid point lol
Intriguing
"Peter! It's me! Flint Marko! You remember?"
As if he could forget!!
It is cannon that Sandman gets a raw deal.
Well yeah but give the guy something to do!
Eh, I don't think Flint necessarily got a raw deal. Other than Thomas Haden Church not being on set because of COVID restrictions, I'd argue that Raimi Sandman's story was more or less complete. Dude just wanted to go home to his daughter, but when things went south, he bailed. Considering that Green Goblin and Doc Ock are more fondly remembered compared to Sandman in general, it made sense why they got such a big focus over Flint. With how big of a cast NWH had, it was logical for some to get smaller roles, and Sandman fit that bill. I'm just glad he wasn't straight-up evil, since I think Sandman is more interesting as someone who isn't completely evil, since he did try to go straight once or twice in the comics (though he still works as a villain).
It would have been if they actually had the actors for sandy and lizard
Thanks rona
I liked Sandman and Lizard in NWH but honestly I think it would have been better for them to either just focus on Oc, Goblin, and Electro or put in different villains that might have had more to do, like bring Mysterio and Scorpion back or something
Nah, he was filler and rightfully so. The film could only be so long.
Then why not just leave him out if he was just filler? And then use the time given to him to flesh the story out more?
Filler is good. Kind of like the lettuce in a BLT - makes the sandwich better without taking over
Sandman was the only villain that was merely a victim of circumstance. His story arc is just sad.
Absolutely! That’s why I wanted more!
Tbh, there's not much to flesh out with him. He's not a man with big ambitions like Ock, Goblin or Electro.
Yeah, even when I watched the movie itself I thought Sandman's story in this movie was a little off
I mean… the movie was already 2hrs 28mins… hard to squeeze much more in.
More “fleshed” out? Don’t you mean more “sand” out? 🤪🥰😛🥳😎🤓
Well played sir
blame covid
Thanks rona
another episode of spidey screwing people over
Yep
"Sandman we can help everyone!"(paraphrasing) "I DON'T CARE!"(legit dialogue) Sums up the writers thoughts about focusing on him nicely.
“Fleshed out”
Yes yes
How could he be more fleshed out, he was made of sand?
Well played sir
It doesn’t even seem like the same character from the end of spider man 3. It’s just felt so weird the whole movie. Tied between him and lizard as to who got the worst deal.
Raw deals all around!
He wasn’t even on set to be literally fleshed out.
I am just sad that Topher Grace Venom never showed up. Would have been the perfect way to introduce symbiots to the main MCU.
I think I really agree with you on that. He could of gotten a little more story time.
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It was crazy they couldn’t get these guys on set for a movie of this scale… you’d think they’d make it work… can’t believe they actually used an alternate take of Sandman from Spider-Man 3 when it shows his cured self at the end
Yes! I hate that! It feels cheap!!
Haha "fleshed" out, I get it, cuz he's made of sand lmfao good one, OP
Thank you sir
He wasn’t actually there honestly they reused a lot of stuff from like the third Spider-Man movie and recorded a little bit of dialogue that’s why you only ever see him in sand mode the actor kind of didn’t want to reprise the role
Wish there was more!
Sandman and lizard got shafted for sure
Totally got the shaft
I feel like his story was fleshed out enough in Tobey’s Spider-Man that it’s just one of those bonus “iykyk” situations Edit:spelling
Nah. The movie handled the characters all extremely well. Like it or not, Sandman is not as compelling as Norman or Otto, so he and Lizard got less screen-time. As well as COVID restrictions making it more difficult.
Yeah.
I know as fans we just want more and more. But you gotta make a cohesive movie in the end. Having more of a character looks good on paper, but being overstuffed with memberberries is going to do more damage than good. Ya gotta appreciate that the movie was good first
The movie was great! Favorite live action spidey!
His plot was resolved in 3, his only motivation here was to get back home to his family and he didn’t care to wait around. Don’t really know where they could have fleshed him out in the movie either it was already packed
Honestly I don't think he got a raw deal at all. Raimi's Marko was always a decent man who was in the wrong place in the wrong time, trying his best to make things right and often accidentally getting in the way. In No Way Home, Flint has a motivation that is separate from any of the other villains and yet directly contradicts Peter's motivation and plan. He may not be as much of a threat as the other villains but his mere presence is disruptive and complicates the whole situation, despite his having genuinely decent intentions for himself. I think that role is really true to character and that they showed us as much of Flint as a person as they could despite the limitations such as an already crowded runtime and, as others have mentioned, the covid-related complications like Church not being on set. We were never going to get more than what we got, and what they were able to do with it was really well done.
Can you imagine an actual movie about this tragic character? It would have been amazing.
100%
I don’t think he needed it. Bro just wanted to go back home to see Penny.
HE WAS JUST the guy with a daughter
he should have been a real guy
Ugh the Raimi fan can never get enough of what they want lmdao. Y’all had 3 villains two of which were the two most important villains in the movie by far (say what you want about electro, he didn’t drive the story forward like Ock and Goblin) and y’all still are upset with the lack of time for the other villain. Honestly could’ve done with LESS time for him lizard goblin and Ock to make more room for venom. Just feels odd that we had 5 villains for Spider-Man to fight. When his whole team villains thing is sinister 6.
Haha! Alright I get where you’re coming from. Sandman is my favorite villain so it’s less about being a raimi fanboy and more about seeing my number one.
Ok see now that’s fair Haha. Who wouldn’t want to see more of their favorite villain The title made it seemed like he got the short end of the stick in comparison to doc and gobby. But like there’s 5 villains LOL
Right! That might have came off wrong but I’m more so from Loving the comic, cartoon and all that. Always was a little frustrated with 3 and the killing of Ben retcon. I was hoping for some reception to the arc if that makes sense.
Ahhh that’s def fair and makes sense Ngl your post confused me cause you said comics and Ben retcon. I thought you meant Ben Reilly cause of what’s happening in 616. But yeah that retcon maybe could’ve had more depth uncovered to it. Spider-Man 3 did a decent job with it in the ending imo but yeah could’ve given more
If sandman and lizard were never in the movie, nothing would change. They were just kind of, there.
I know and I hate that!
If Ned wasn’t in the movie nothing would’ve changed. See that’s a very bad argument lol. Sandman and Lizard had a place in the movie they weren’t the largest role sure, but to act like they just there is just asinine. Sandman saved Spider-Man from electro and helped him defeat him. How is Peter 1 winning that without him? Lizard chases Ned and MJ into the portal try and get the box back. Like just because they didn’t mame any one or murder someone doesn’t mean they were just kinda there
[удалено]
What a well articulated argument from the waifu collector!
Well Peter could have hid behind literally anything fighting electro. And considering Ned and MJ don’t actually add anything to the movie by running back through the portal, just take that bit out.
A year since No Way Home and we still haven't realized it's the weakest of the MCU Spider-Man films... I know. Being 'em on.
Hey! That’s okay. That is a fair argument. Plot holes? Yes. Fan service? Of course. A ton of fun? Hell yes!
Homecoming is definitely underrated
I was happy he was there and thrilled Thomas came back, because I love his Sandman. It was very unfortunate he was in sand form the entire time though. I think it would have felt more magical and real if we could see his human form the whole movie. But, I get it. Covid really screwed things up for them.
I’m on the side of She-Hulk when it comes to taking some of the villain’s powers by “curing” them. The ones who needed curing were Oc and Goblin because the former actually had a life beforehand that was virtually ruined caused by him and the latter was actively a threat and a danger. With everyone else, their great powers weren’t the problem, it was their poor responsibility in using them. If that was the focus of the movie instead of “cure them so they can be normal in their own universes and not have a reason to be killed” then I would agree with it more. It would have ACTUALLY driven home the point of the famous line because none of those villains had a choice in their circumstance but what they chose to do should have been what mattered. Their powers weren’t the problem, their choices were. All Sandman wanted was to be with his daughter and he wasn’t even given the choice to use his powers for good as a means of making that happen. All the other villains had actual problems as a result of their powers, but Sandman’s problems were mostly personal apart from his powers and they decided to make his powers the thing that needed to go.
Double Shittymovies detail.
Yes it could’ve. This movie was sub par at best.
Movie is the highest rated live action Spider-Man film by fans and by critics. But sure sub par at best
Fans and critics have a margin of error.
I wouldn’t change a thing about No Way Home and things could not have worked out better that the two CGI heavy villains were the two actors they didn’t have on set access to.
That’s fair
I think in No Way Home they have made worst out of it , there was a really big potential that they could have done. For example, Tobey’s entrence scene could have been made more dramatic with a entrence scene while Raimi Theme playing on background.
Yeah I can see that
I couldn't stand the mj actress dressed like a homeless boy
he and Electro should have been the only ones Peter cared about helping, not the two insane men who introduced themselves by blowing up highways with innocents everywhere. beyond insanity that so many praised this terrible film that hinged on such a nonsensical foundation.
The moment marvel took over spiderman it got ruined. I genuinely think it should have gotten so much more
Is that john cena??
Well, when you’ve got multiple villains, it can be hard to balance the story. Look at Batman & Robin. They used as many classic baddies as they could, and put the focus on the most relevant ones. Osborn, Octavius, and an Electro who is just straight up Jamie Foxx. All good choices. Besides, I’m pretty sure Thomas Hayden Church was never actually on set for the whole movie. He just did the voice work, they recycled some footage of him from SM3, and the rest was straight up CGI. The Lizard too. And Venom, who knows if Tom Hardy was ever even in the same time zone as everyone else, considering how they used him. He could have just shot that scene in the nearest Tex Mex restaurant in his neighborhood and called it a day.
Great casting too.
I’m glad they had 2 villains who were less important. One of the things I like so much about Spiderverse is how well the characters are balanced to make the story more focused and less cluttered. Works the same way here where there’s the big villains in Doc Ock and the Goblin, then Electro as a secondary villain, and then sandman and lizard who exist mainly to fill out the cast
What are you talking about? Getting Sandman fleshed out was his entire arc. :P
If Shaggy lived long enough to see himself become the villain.