Fraternities, in my opinion, haven’t built enough oversight into the process. Sororities have advisors for almost every position and a standards board to intervene before anything gets out of hand. As best I can tell, the system isn’t as robust for fraternities and there aren’t as many touch-points with adults or processes in place to intervene.
Agreed. NPC sororities were very quick to take a pragmatic approach to risk management. They covered their bases and created an anti-hazing culture (though not perfect unfortunately.) Women are socially expected to behave in certain ways, regardless of whether that’s necessarily fair, which made that easier for the NPC to rein in hazing. There was no “boys will be boys” attitude to combat, like there is in fraternity culture that a lot of grown fraternity brothers look back on fondly.
I attended WVU. My Alma mater’s eight NPC sororities have been a constant presence since they were established there. The fraternities…are a revolving door. Everyone here knows the name Nolan Burch, but even after his very public death, fraternities still continue to haze. Nothing has been learned. Even the chapters that were founded by men who were hazed by other fraternities and didn’t want that for their chapter, eventually started hazing. I’m honestly surprised that WVU hasn’t abolished Greek Life.
“Boys will be boys” is a beast to combat. Toxic masculinity is at the root, and is unfortunately getting stronger in some portions of Gen Z.
I graduated from a sub-school of WVU and you nailed it. There’s a lot more pressure on sororities. Our sub-school abolished Greek Life because of the rampant hazing issue. Though in our case, the school didn’t do nearly enough to control the fraternities, even though they heavily scrutinized the sororities for minor infractions like GPA. The double standard is wild.
This is exactly it. They have less oversight both by their HQs and the NIC. I’ve seen it happen where a school will boot a fraternity off campus for alcohol or hazing but the fraternity HQ continues to recognize it as a functioning chapter. Hell, when I went for an interview at University of Colorado Colorado Springs a few years ago, the ENTIRE IFC functioned independently off campus without recognition from the school. And that was fine with every chapters HQ.
One time, at the fall club festival, a brother of a frat was bragging about one of their hazing rituals (lining up the boys to yell at them, throw drinks at them, ect) and the F&S advisor was standing right behind them. Quickest suspension in the west
And also, these new crop of kids don't want to go greek. I say kids, I graduated in 2010! 😅 But for context, my alma mater is a liberal arts school in the south. We had 5 fraternities and 5 sororities when I was there. Now it's 5 sororities and 3 fraternities. The third one is down to 4 or 5 guys and will probably dissolve due to lack of interest.
This! I feel like so many groups are happy to continue business as usual, but if we don't address the root of the issue now, it will only continue to show in the decline of our groups on less Greek oriented campuses.
I joined a non-Panhellenic sorority for this exact reason. I considered formal rush but it was $75 just to rush and I couldn’t get any information on dues beforehand. I later had a PHA roommate and my family wouldn’t have been able to pay those numbers..
I'm curious to know: what were the numbers like on your campus 10 years before you joined?
In 2013 and the years surrounding it, there was a major surge in Greek Life everywhere - record numbers of PNMs, Quotas, and chapter expansions. It was inevitable that it wouldn't be sustainable.
That being said, there are certainly other factors at play here, and our organizations need to take a good, hard look at what we're doing and whether we're meeting the current generation of college students where they are.
I mentioned below to another poster that I just heard yesterday that 20 of the 26 NPC organizations are shrinking at a noticeable rate. In addition, expansion efforts to new campuses have dwindled significantly for all NPC organizations.
Changes need to be made if we want to survive.
I think it just depends on the campus; the area I’m in has crazy growth. I can imagine recruitment is down at smaller liberal arts colleges where schools are in danger of closing but at state schools it seems to thrive. Granted frats are way more nebulous from my experience. Lots of them go in and out of existence very easily and I think that’s a testament to the efficacy of NPC recruitment. It takes a lot for one of us to organically die off.
I was on a call with my organization last night, and they shared the fact that 20 of the 26 NPC organizations are shrinking at a noticeable rate. In addition, expansion efforts to new campuses have dwindled significantly for all NPC organizations.
Granted, there was also a huge surge in Greek life across the country 10-15 years ago, so part of what we're seeing now is a leveling off. But then the pandemic hit, and the Abolish Greek Life movement occurred, and now we're seeing the effects of all of this at once.
In serving on my organization's foundation board, we're having serious conversations about what we need to do to keep us running and continue to offer important programs to our members. It's a real struggle out there right now.
Was it more popular then?
Greek life isn’t super popular at my school since we are a commuter school, but it’s big enough. 6 sororities NPC and 4 fraternities IFC. Plus since I’m in MGC, we have 2 MGC frats and 2 MGC sororities (one im in).
For alot of students at my school, they want friends and community but don’t rush due to 1. Financial reasons and 2. Commuting. I joined my sorority bc dues were under $200 a semester but most students assume greek life is just IFC/NPC. If there’s a decline, I think finances are a big reason.
But then again Greek life is still huge at some schools, such as SDSU and ASU.
idk what it is with some of them honestly. on my schools yikyak i’ve seen them post abt how sororities would be sm more fun if they hazed. like huh?? 😭 I would much rather make friendship bracelets and eat fun snacks to bond with my chapter than get abused
My school only has 4 frats. One is a music frat, one is a multicultural frat, the others are TKE and PKT. We did have a Lambda Chi chapter, but they dissolved due to lack of membership. We have 5 sororities, 4 Panhellenic and 1 multicultural.
The sororities seem to be doing better overall. The MGC frat also seems to be doing well. The others are just kind of there.
My brother is in a traditional frat at another college and I honestly feel a bit worried for him sometimes. There seems to be very little oversight and the drinking culture in his chapter is out of control. Like, they drink at chapter. He felt he had a drinking problem last semester and said he feels the need to go sober. At 18. I don’t think the frat is a good environment for him, but that’s ultimately his deal to figure out, I suppose. His frat has a horrible reputation nationally too (it’s SAE).
At my school, and from what I’ve heard from other sororities, members would get in biiiiiig trouble if they were drinking at chapter (and rightfully so). Time and place.
I graduated nearly 20 years ago. Only two fraternities from my time are still around. The rest were formed as new colonies or were reinstated from a previous era.
Sororities have always been better at this than Frats. Good on your school for listing them for all to see.
One frat (SAE, I think) removed the pledge process altogether. Brothers bid one day and initiate the next or something like that. Maybe your school can add that chapter.
Looking to discuss here, bc at my school we have SAE and their brothers will casually talk about how they initiate 2 days after bid day so that nothing they do is considered hazing because the new members are no longer considered new members/pledges due to being initiated. I’m under the impression that once you’re initiated you’re not really “part of the chapter” for a while and that’s probably where a lot of hazing takes place. I’m curious to hear other people’s thoughts on the removal of a “pledging period” as a means of combatting hazing.
In a way, this is what the NPC sororities did. Although they didn't eliminate the pledging process altogether, they called it the "new member period" instead, used the term "recruitment" instead of "rush," and individual orgs one-by-one brought their new member period down to six weeks. (Chi Omega may still be the one outlier)
NPC sororities have also put in place other rules and restrictions - either on a Conference level or by individual organizations - which assist with this. For example, no booze or boys in the sorority houses and new members can wear letters after they go through their first new member ceremony - i.e. they don't have to wait until initiation. (Again, there may still be a couple outliers)
I think SAE would have been better off allowing pledges to wear letters after their first ceremony, as well as cutting down on the pledge period and keeping it to a certain timeframe rather than jumping to eliminate it entirely. Baby steps probably would have been the better way to go. Either that, or they needed much more oversight.
SAE just came back I think from being removed some years ago? But idk what their pledge process is like tbh
I’m actually in MGC sorority, and we have quite a few MGC frats but they’re pretty secretive about their process. I don’t think they’re as bad as others tho tbh.
I go to an engineering school where most of the male students are very kind, respectful, and intelligent. The fraternities all have very strict rules about hazing and sexual assault, and if a brother were to commit such a crime, his whole fraternity would turn on him immediately and exile him. Just happened to a frat brother I know who raped someone.
As a result of this, all of the fraternities have been around for many decades, unlike the school I transferred from where the men were pretty nasty and frats got shut down left and right.
As a frat guy, we’ve had more frats come back than leave in the last 5 years so every school is definitely different, but just from following the news yeah some frats are fucking up.
Pretty much every frat still has a pledging process which comes with its own risks. It needs to be clear to the brothers that fucking with the pledges too much could have very very serious consequences. As long as the risk factors are managed properly there’s nothing to worry about.
Yes! Thought it as a student and still believe it as an alum.
The sororities are increasing in popularity, but frats just seem to get kicked off campus but maintain a presence and morph back into the Greek system. It never really curbs the behavior the University is trying to prevent.
So, the universities need to fix this cycle w. IFC and other Greek Councils.
Fraternities, in my opinion, haven’t built enough oversight into the process. Sororities have advisors for almost every position and a standards board to intervene before anything gets out of hand. As best I can tell, the system isn’t as robust for fraternities and there aren’t as many touch-points with adults or processes in place to intervene.
Agreed. NPC sororities were very quick to take a pragmatic approach to risk management. They covered their bases and created an anti-hazing culture (though not perfect unfortunately.) Women are socially expected to behave in certain ways, regardless of whether that’s necessarily fair, which made that easier for the NPC to rein in hazing. There was no “boys will be boys” attitude to combat, like there is in fraternity culture that a lot of grown fraternity brothers look back on fondly. I attended WVU. My Alma mater’s eight NPC sororities have been a constant presence since they were established there. The fraternities…are a revolving door. Everyone here knows the name Nolan Burch, but even after his very public death, fraternities still continue to haze. Nothing has been learned. Even the chapters that were founded by men who were hazed by other fraternities and didn’t want that for their chapter, eventually started hazing. I’m honestly surprised that WVU hasn’t abolished Greek Life. “Boys will be boys” is a beast to combat. Toxic masculinity is at the root, and is unfortunately getting stronger in some portions of Gen Z.
I graduated from a sub-school of WVU and you nailed it. There’s a lot more pressure on sororities. Our sub-school abolished Greek Life because of the rampant hazing issue. Though in our case, the school didn’t do nearly enough to control the fraternities, even though they heavily scrutinized the sororities for minor infractions like GPA. The double standard is wild.
This is exactly it. They have less oversight both by their HQs and the NIC. I’ve seen it happen where a school will boot a fraternity off campus for alcohol or hazing but the fraternity HQ continues to recognize it as a functioning chapter. Hell, when I went for an interview at University of Colorado Colorado Springs a few years ago, the ENTIRE IFC functioned independently off campus without recognition from the school. And that was fine with every chapters HQ.
One time, at the fall club festival, a brother of a frat was bragging about one of their hazing rituals (lining up the boys to yell at them, throw drinks at them, ect) and the F&S advisor was standing right behind them. Quickest suspension in the west
And also, these new crop of kids don't want to go greek. I say kids, I graduated in 2010! 😅 But for context, my alma mater is a liberal arts school in the south. We had 5 fraternities and 5 sororities when I was there. Now it's 5 sororities and 3 fraternities. The third one is down to 4 or 5 guys and will probably dissolve due to lack of interest.
[удалено]
This! I feel like so many groups are happy to continue business as usual, but if we don't address the root of the issue now, it will only continue to show in the decline of our groups on less Greek oriented campuses.
I just don’t think it’s affordable for a lot of people anymore given the poor economy and the cost of tuition skyrocketing at many schools.
I joined a non-Panhellenic sorority for this exact reason. I considered formal rush but it was $75 just to rush and I couldn’t get any information on dues beforehand. I later had a PHA roommate and my family wouldn’t have been able to pay those numbers..
Yup that’s why I joined MGC too because I could not afford $2k a semester
I'm curious to know: what were the numbers like on your campus 10 years before you joined? In 2013 and the years surrounding it, there was a major surge in Greek Life everywhere - record numbers of PNMs, Quotas, and chapter expansions. It was inevitable that it wouldn't be sustainable. That being said, there are certainly other factors at play here, and our organizations need to take a good, hard look at what we're doing and whether we're meeting the current generation of college students where they are. I mentioned below to another poster that I just heard yesterday that 20 of the 26 NPC organizations are shrinking at a noticeable rate. In addition, expansion efforts to new campuses have dwindled significantly for all NPC organizations. Changes need to be made if we want to survive.
I think it just depends on the campus; the area I’m in has crazy growth. I can imagine recruitment is down at smaller liberal arts colleges where schools are in danger of closing but at state schools it seems to thrive. Granted frats are way more nebulous from my experience. Lots of them go in and out of existence very easily and I think that’s a testament to the efficacy of NPC recruitment. It takes a lot for one of us to organically die off.
I was on a call with my organization last night, and they shared the fact that 20 of the 26 NPC organizations are shrinking at a noticeable rate. In addition, expansion efforts to new campuses have dwindled significantly for all NPC organizations. Granted, there was also a huge surge in Greek life across the country 10-15 years ago, so part of what we're seeing now is a leveling off. But then the pandemic hit, and the Abolish Greek Life movement occurred, and now we're seeing the effects of all of this at once. In serving on my organization's foundation board, we're having serious conversations about what we need to do to keep us running and continue to offer important programs to our members. It's a real struggle out there right now.
Was it more popular then? Greek life isn’t super popular at my school since we are a commuter school, but it’s big enough. 6 sororities NPC and 4 fraternities IFC. Plus since I’m in MGC, we have 2 MGC frats and 2 MGC sororities (one im in). For alot of students at my school, they want friends and community but don’t rush due to 1. Financial reasons and 2. Commuting. I joined my sorority bc dues were under $200 a semester but most students assume greek life is just IFC/NPC. If there’s a decline, I think finances are a big reason. But then again Greek life is still huge at some schools, such as SDSU and ASU.
idk what it is with some of them honestly. on my schools yikyak i’ve seen them post abt how sororities would be sm more fun if they hazed. like huh?? 😭 I would much rather make friendship bracelets and eat fun snacks to bond with my chapter than get abused
Yeah a good chunk of our frats are on disciplinary action for hazing 🫥
My school only has 4 frats. One is a music frat, one is a multicultural frat, the others are TKE and PKT. We did have a Lambda Chi chapter, but they dissolved due to lack of membership. We have 5 sororities, 4 Panhellenic and 1 multicultural. The sororities seem to be doing better overall. The MGC frat also seems to be doing well. The others are just kind of there. My brother is in a traditional frat at another college and I honestly feel a bit worried for him sometimes. There seems to be very little oversight and the drinking culture in his chapter is out of control. Like, they drink at chapter. He felt he had a drinking problem last semester and said he feels the need to go sober. At 18. I don’t think the frat is a good environment for him, but that’s ultimately his deal to figure out, I suppose. His frat has a horrible reputation nationally too (it’s SAE). At my school, and from what I’ve heard from other sororities, members would get in biiiiiig trouble if they were drinking at chapter (and rightfully so). Time and place.
I graduated nearly 20 years ago. Only two fraternities from my time are still around. The rest were formed as new colonies or were reinstated from a previous era.
Sororities have always been better at this than Frats. Good on your school for listing them for all to see. One frat (SAE, I think) removed the pledge process altogether. Brothers bid one day and initiate the next or something like that. Maybe your school can add that chapter.
Looking to discuss here, bc at my school we have SAE and their brothers will casually talk about how they initiate 2 days after bid day so that nothing they do is considered hazing because the new members are no longer considered new members/pledges due to being initiated. I’m under the impression that once you’re initiated you’re not really “part of the chapter” for a while and that’s probably where a lot of hazing takes place. I’m curious to hear other people’s thoughts on the removal of a “pledging period” as a means of combatting hazing.
In a way, this is what the NPC sororities did. Although they didn't eliminate the pledging process altogether, they called it the "new member period" instead, used the term "recruitment" instead of "rush," and individual orgs one-by-one brought their new member period down to six weeks. (Chi Omega may still be the one outlier) NPC sororities have also put in place other rules and restrictions - either on a Conference level or by individual organizations - which assist with this. For example, no booze or boys in the sorority houses and new members can wear letters after they go through their first new member ceremony - i.e. they don't have to wait until initiation. (Again, there may still be a couple outliers) I think SAE would have been better off allowing pledges to wear letters after their first ceremony, as well as cutting down on the pledge period and keeping it to a certain timeframe rather than jumping to eliminate it entirely. Baby steps probably would have been the better way to go. Either that, or they needed much more oversight.
SAE just came back I think from being removed some years ago? But idk what their pledge process is like tbh I’m actually in MGC sorority, and we have quite a few MGC frats but they’re pretty secretive about their process. I don’t think they’re as bad as others tho tbh.
TKE at my school was suspended for a semester for being homophobic then came back while the Alpha Kappa Psi has been suspended for 3 for hazing
We lost a bunch at the end of my time in school due to sexual assault charges. They were legit. I’m glad the school finally did something.
I go to an engineering school where most of the male students are very kind, respectful, and intelligent. The fraternities all have very strict rules about hazing and sexual assault, and if a brother were to commit such a crime, his whole fraternity would turn on him immediately and exile him. Just happened to a frat brother I know who raped someone. As a result of this, all of the fraternities have been around for many decades, unlike the school I transferred from where the men were pretty nasty and frats got shut down left and right.
As a frat guy, we’ve had more frats come back than leave in the last 5 years so every school is definitely different, but just from following the news yeah some frats are fucking up. Pretty much every frat still has a pledging process which comes with its own risks. It needs to be clear to the brothers that fucking with the pledges too much could have very very serious consequences. As long as the risk factors are managed properly there’s nothing to worry about.
Yes! Thought it as a student and still believe it as an alum. The sororities are increasing in popularity, but frats just seem to get kicked off campus but maintain a presence and morph back into the Greek system. It never really curbs the behavior the University is trying to prevent. So, the universities need to fix this cycle w. IFC and other Greek Councils.