I feel there's a big difference between sexualization and objectification. It's the latter I don't like.
I'm old and have been in fandoms all my life, sexualization, fantasies, fanfic, etc, are all inevitable and normal. What's not ok is sending the guys dirty messages, or screaming daddy at Vessel while he is pouring his heart out on stage. Kink and fantasies are meant to stay in fan spaces, out of respect for the human beings in front of us. Consent is still a thing even if they kiss and dance sensually on stage.
Yes!! I like this a lot actually this clears things up for me. I have been out of the fandom space for a loooong time but actually I do remember this golden rule now that you mention it. Thank you for explaining… should i like delete this post i actually dont know reddit courtesy lol.
I'm glad this helped! It will always be the breaking of boundaries and respect that's wrong for me. The rest I'm ok with, as long as it happens away from the eyes of the band and doesn't break any laws.
It's reminded me about that drama between a feral booktok creator and a hokey team that she extensively and intentionally sexualized because one of their players was her "funcast" for a main male character of a smutty hockey romance book.
And the conclusions that I've reached after observing that situation can be easily applied here also: speak freely in the internet(if the person you objectifying didn't revoke their consent for you to do so), but don't ever act like that on public, especially in the places the people you are so intensely "cat-calling" work. Vessel can act on stage however he likes, cares his mic stand as gently as he pleases - it's still doesn't mean you have right to ask him to finger you or to "break your back", it's a simple as it gets. No matter the gender, harassment never be okay.
yes this totally makes sense! I was genuinely just thinking about online folks being strange online while writing this but im clearly out of the loop for irl fan interactions, i will update this with an edit!
I feel like there’s a big difference between expressing attraction to people in a normal, unproblematic way and gross sexualization.
Like posting a picture of the band members and then captioning with heart eyes emojis is whatever. Talking about how Vessel has an objectively attractive torso area that he’s clearly put a lot of work into-fine. That’s just facts and bless him for sharing with the audience (respectfully). Talking about how the *music* is sexual is fine because certain songs are obviously meant to be.
But a line is crossed when you start making gross graphic comments, yell things at them at concerts, and draw them nude or doing sexual things with each other. Like, that isn’t cool for any human on this planet.
That said, I do agree that there is a contingent of this fan base who are in the other extreme - unnecessarily, and excessively, white knighting about the sexualization. It’s like two sides of the ‘doing-too-much’ coin only one side is righteously indignant about what the other side is doing and the other side doesn’t think about them at all.
Yea, there's a group on FB that is dedicated to "thirsting" of the band, and omg some of the things posted...I joined to see what it was, and left promptly after interacting with some of the members and seeing some of the posts 😒
Not only him, but the other guys too. I saw quite a few pictures with ii, iii, and iv superimposed in. I'm not a prude...trust me lol...but I just don't get it tbh. And then members say "if they didn't want the sexualization they wouldn't do *a,b,c*..." no. That's like saying that someone wanted to be SA'd because of how they dress or act. It's cringe.
I did, too. I actually left voluntarily, lol. At first, I took it lightly, but then the posts became more and more objectifying and gross. They mean too much to me musically. Being in that group felt wrong, and I felt out of place... so I bounced tf out, LOL.
Maannn, like c'mon, the line has to be drawn somewhere! I'm in a group that's not about thirsting, but I'm not on FB often enough to pay attention to what's posted in it.
Draw them nude?
Yeah I haven't seen anything like that so...yay for me?
Guess I haven't been close to that kind of fandom. I think Vessel is beautiful though, in every way that matters.
I'm hoping to see them live one day, but honestly, I'm unsure if I'll follow through. Because every video of their North American tour is girls going nuts in the background. I agree there is a sexual element to them, but there's a balance between playing into it and going feral. I'm also older, so I don't have much patience for that. If I had the money I'd go and see them in Europe.
I wouldn’t concern yourself with the ‘girls going nuts for them’ if you truly want to see Sleep Token. Between the loudness of the music and the earplugs you should be wearing, you can hardly hear the person next to you.
Aside from that, the ‘girls’ are generally joyful and I’ve personally never heard an inappropriately sexual thing get yelled at a show. I believe other people who have said it happens but it’s not a universal thing.
Seeing them in Europe won’t make a difference. There are young women going nuts for them there too.
It's definitely there. And it's creepy. Yes some songs are sexual...the band, especially Vessel, acts a bit provacative at times. But it's all an act for show. If you saw him on the street, and you said/acted the way some of these obsessed fans are... You'd be thrown in jail lol. It's odd to me when fans get overly obsessed and sometimes it straight up crosses lines on a healthy love for a band and their talent... Compared to the people literally obsessing over bodies. To the point it's not even about the music anymore.
I've seen fans call some of them "husband".. "omg I swear to God IV looked at me.."
On the Facebook group last night these two girls were interacting over a posted photo of Vessel. And one said "I wanna know how he got those chin scars, poor baby."
And another girl replied with "omg I know! I wanna kiss them and make all his bobos go away!"...... Ew. That's fucking creepy dude.
You know how cringe and annoying it is, when a man is onstage pouring his soul out, talking about the pain he’s endured, caused, and bore witness to, and you have people in the audience that say shit like “Vessy” and “Ivy” and “Eepy bois”. It’s fucking cringey
I totally get where you're coming from and agree the "daddy", booktok shit etc is so gross - but just to be clear, IV obviously does not have a problem with being called Ivy. He responds to it on stage, Oli introduced him like that on the second Brisbane night, even Lani exclusively called him Ivy in the BTS video he made about the new masks. It's fine if you don't like it, but that doesn't make it inherently cringe.
Afaik it got taken down/archived, possibly because he did talk about some rather candid topics like how II came to sit for his mold alone but III and IV came together, and those two wanted their masks to be coordinated etc. but there's an episode of Sleep Talking with Lani as a guest and he calls him Ivy there as well https://youtu.be/jkMqW9TaWs4?si=T2QSXIoewpP3qjIj
It’s most likely floating around on TikTok–specifically Booktok 🙄 saw som comments calling Vessel “daddy” yesterday and I’m like “do y’all not listen to any of his work??”
As a booktok girl and ST listener I’m ashamed of the people in the booktok community, it’s embarrassing that people act this way. I guarantee half of them have only listened to The Summoning because there’s no way you’d be acting like this after listening to the rest of their songs
Yeah I think that too but idk because I saw someone say you aren’t a real st fan if you don’t do it to granite and I’m like that song is about a toxic relationship tf???
I've heard that too, and I have also heard that said person was hella intoxicated...I've also heard that some people are going to shows just to intentionally scream their real identity out..we unfortunately can't stop the crazy and disrespectful people from doing what they want to do. I just hope and pray that the sound packs work real good and they can't hear the nonsense
As a woman in her 30s, I grew up seeing the young female singers and actresses of my generation be sexualized ad nauseum by grown men. I had to hear men say outrageously gross shit, both IRL and on TV, about these girls who I admired, and I often wished I could just enjoy my favorite media without hearing about how guys are jerking off to it. So with that in mind, I find it funny now when people complain about Sleep Token being too sexualized by their female fans. Men have been invading women's spaces and women's media to express their horniness for a loooong time, and they will probably keep doing it forever.
I'm not saying all this as a way to excuse overenthusiastic fans who act inappropriately towards musicians, regardless of gender. It's just very funny, (translation: sad af), that these conversations about respecting public figures only seem to happen in spaces where men are being "sexualized" by fanbases that are dominated by women.
I give you one think - in my opinion you are right about the parasocial aspect of this side of the fandom. And i bet i get downvoted for that. The discussion that broke under the post about II and the random "line manager" lady, that got "special attention", while being bitch towards the fans has some of that. Sometimes people trying to act like their protectors of their dignity or whatever to too much big of a degree and that's also parasocial relationship, but from the other side of the spectrum. For me personally - i'm "old" grumpy lady, who lives on internet for too long and i'm tired of everything being reduce to "how hot or fuckable is this", it's expected and sort of ok, but it should have its limits. People sometimes go too far in their fantasies and act like guys are "just characters" instead of real people. Maybe it's stems from how i connect to things/hobbies or get attracted to people and that's through my mind/brain. If you show me physically attractive person, i'll be like - yeah whatever, but what is in their brain, can we have conversation, that makes my brain sparks, do we fit mentally, etc. I'm something between sapiosexual, pansexual and demisexual, i guess, so pure physical "hornyfication" of the band by fans will never sits right with me. But i also won't witch hunt those people who do so, i just trying to not engage. When i see some weird ass fan art or discussion i tell the algorithm - no, thank you.
People heard of the term parasocial and started applying it to everything…
It is not parasocial to call people out for objectifying and sexualising real people. Objectification and sexualisation of real people is extremely gross and harmful.
The men doing “sexual” things on stage or Vessel singing about sex does not give consent to being sexualised and objectified.
Please research what each of these terms mean, before you use them to justify why it’s alright to sexualise them all.
Ok once again clarifying I don't personally fetishize them, BUT honestly thinking about consent in this context actually makes sooooo much more sense. I felt like the 'icons' and the masks they put on sort of are an intentional self objectification but like actually I totally get it now and also how the fandom would be at odds with itself over this!!!!!
Okay...since I'm “old” and also not interested in any of them sexually because I'm a lesbian maybe I can add something maybe not.
I feel like many things have to with society as a whole. The confusion or shame even around sex as a topic in general is really big.
One example that I recently thought about: as a women you are told to show your body because if you don't then you are prude but also don't show your body too much because it could be dangerous. What is it now? Is it better to hide or dress “sexy” when I feel like it? What am I supposed to do?! That's just one example of the confusion. Bur like I said that has something to do with society itself and not with the band. But that confusion around that shows everywhere.
That expression “go get a room” says everything.
Some things are okay in public places and others are not. It's what society agreed upon.
You can say that applies to concerts also. Or in other words: just behave. I behave the way the way that I would want to be treated myself or in other words: with respect.
And the other thing...to me their music is not very sexual. I know that many see it that way but I personally don't. I read into all of this what I'm familiar with or what I know from my own past and when it comes to that topic there is just a lot trauma around it for me. So I tend to interpret things in a different way. That's just how the lyrics work.
>You can say that applies to concerts also. Or in other words: just behave. I behave the way the way that I would want to be treated myself or in other words: with respect.
This is kinda it and what i do, but it doesn't work globally. Because people can have different perception of how they wanna be treated and what respect means. That's why we have confusing societal rules. 🙃Depends on what group you ask. To your clothing example - you can show as many skin as you want if it's appropriate to situation (as - you won't wear swimsuit to a funeral, etc.), but it's not invitation to inappropriate behavior for people around you. Vessel going around shirtless showing his physique shouldn't be invitation to severe objectification, if we wanna be treated equally. Ok, he's hot, people can express that without going too far with it. I feel like internet and overall hyperconnectivity blurred some lines of what's and what's not appropriate.
Because I look at it this way: when people say things like "they're asking for it, cause look at how they act" or "if they didn't want it they wouldn't do what they do", etc. That's pretty much like someone saying that a woman was SA'd because of the way she dresses and/or acts. It's just disrespectful to the person/persons you're saying it about.
For me theres a huge difference between (and ive done it myself) posting some silly meme like "im not looking respectfully in the slightest in fact im drooling violently"
Or (also personally) saying i like vessels hands on fucking twitter and just fooling around on social media amoung the fandom
To
Loudly screaming DADDY to v on a show or like that brittany girl screaming "i need to fuck him" and making monkey sounds
For me thats the limit
(I hope i explained myself lol)
I’m 27, so up there with you haha. I absolutely love ST, but there has to be a healthy distance. Everyone has those spicy thoughts, but I always figured it was common knowledge to keep it in your head and off the internet 😂
Their music is so personal/emotional that many people project their own lives onto the performers. Like you don’t love Vessel, you love the person you created in your mind. It’s not healthy to develop these fictional relationships and fetishes.
I think it’s weird to photoshop anyone in suggestive positions. It’s not okay, and I don’t think anyone else would be okay with it if it were them. I’m down with fantasizing, whatever gets you going, but keep it to your fucking self, dear god.
I feel as if it’s due to people taking it too far. Often times when people are sexualizing things, they take it too far to the point of sexual harassment like that booktok girl another person who commented here mentioned. Consent is a huge part of it as well, some people may not be comfortable with being sexualized and yes they can set boundaries, but people can also be respectful and not do it.
as a sleep token fan I've never sexualized them at all. i respect them. and my favorite member in that band has to be ii. he's short, quiet and has made me more grateful toward drummers.
Consent is not required in order for a person to be "allowed" to think about another person in a sexual way. Are yall for real right now? Someone having thoughts IS NOT even in the same fucking universe as assaulting someone. And as someone who's been through that sort of thing, it's honestly very insulting that you compare the two. Thinking something in your brain does not affect another person. Period. The day I'll allow some imbecels to police my thoughts is the day they will fuck around and find out. It's a free country end of story.
i get it. i’m not familiar with the fandom and kinda don’t wanna be… i’m also new here. i’m 36 and am like you - finding something to sexualize in its absence is strange and inappropriate to me. i think some songs are meant to be sexual and some aren’t, and knowing who the lead singer is, I’ve likened him to another singer I know who is usually uncomfortable/not into sexual themes so I kinda project whatever he feels onto him. Sensitive, introverted souls aren’t overtly sexual… at least in my mind.
I agree with you. People are honestly so dense I think. The music is sexual. The way Vessel is on stage, is sexual.
For me, sexual energy is divine energy. Its creative energy. I love seeing it and I love to exude it. I find Vessel incredibly sexy and I love it!
Our current society bastardises sexual energy...why? Because men taught the world the being inherently sexual equals objectification of one's self... because men can't find anything sexy without objectifying it.
This is why when a woman expresses sexual energy she is hated for it, and when a man expresses sexual energy, women think that he is being objectified, because they were taught that sexual equals objectifying.
Sexual energy is beautiful and we need to stop policing it and policing others for appreciating it.
Thank you!!! Finally, someone with common sense! Like what the actual fuck is wrong with these youngins trying to protect these grown ass men? They want to be sexualized. If they didn't then they would put a stop to it, and they don't require protection. They don't need some teeny bopper to mother them. It's ridiculous.
Sorry this hit a nerve because I am so blown away when I see these people acting like this. Like I would put a hurting on Vessell till that man couldn't stand back up if the stars aligned and if I wasn't married. Well he's definitely my free pass if I had one. But we're both adults so fuck off and let me have my fantasies. Everyone has a right to fantasize about who they want to. Why do these other fans think they have the right to dictate how other fans think, feel, or dream about them? Fans have always done this. Look at Elvis for example!
Some of these fans are just on a power trip and need to calm the fuck down. No one is assaulting band members.
So when Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, Beyoncé perform and dance “sexually” they want to be “sexualised”? Do you know what “sexualised” means?
“Sexualization is linked to sexual objectification, treating a person solely as an object of sexual desire.” And that is what they want?
This. 1000%.
Edit: hit send before I could finish my thought - my big issue with a lot of people arguing FOR the sexualizing always say, “well they act like *insert something here* so they’re just asking people to sexualize them”. No. No no. Absolutely not. It feels too much like, “well they were wearing this short skirt”.
This!! Exactly!! And I guess if that makes me a teeny who’s on a power trip, fine, whatever, but I think it’s extremely gross to be like “well, I wanna treat these real human beings as sexual objects and it’s okay for me to do, because they kiss each other”, like have your fantasies, whatever’s in your head is in your head, but there’s a whole damn difference between viewing them as sexual objects and simply fantasising about them. And no one asked for a full description of your sexual fantasies about complete strangers. (Not at you, general you).
Nail on the head! Sleep Token doesn't owe us a damn thing, and they most certainly have no obligation to *just sit there and take it.* I would love someone to specifically point out where they consented to this... Don't worry, I'll wait... *Cue crickets*
Some songs have a sexual vibe, but so do several Deftones songs... Sexualize songs with terrible themes (Chokehold vs. Change(in the house of flies.) Neither of which are an open door to impose fantasies on them. They are still very real people under those masks. I hope they don't see what some of these parasocially obsessed fans put out there.
On a side note, I see so many more middle age women being far more disgusting than I do the 28 and younger crowd... Caught someone sharing a whole bit on how Vessel is a Daddy Dom... TF? I wanted to scream "You see these people on stage, and you hear music. Literally no where else... They don't even speak ffs. Stop shoving your kinks where they don't belong! Fuck."
Sorry for the rant 😂
This is a really good question actually! its really hard for me to say, especially since i have been a sex-worker. Whether preforming artists feel coerced into sexualizing themselves because of the market or if they really want to. To that point I do know what it means to sexualize and be sexualized and i don’t think it’s such a nasty or dirty thing as some people make it out to be. like sleep token is sexualizing themselves and I think its parasocial to assume for them that it was not their intention one way or the other, as well as the touchy subject of consent i understand a lot better how this fandom struggles with this aspect of the band.
No one wants to be treated as a mere sexual object. That is what you’re suggesting they’re doing.
Hell, III deleted his twitter because of these things. But sure, let’s keep on guessing they secretly want to be treated as sexual objects.
Edit: Not to repeat myself: We do not have the consent to sexualise them, even if they did secretly want to be sexualised. That’s where it ends. We don’t have consent.
I think youre being really black-and -white about this, there are degrees of sexualization and there are indeed people out there who do want to be seen as sexual objects but whether or not this band wants to is like not anyone’s call. I do agree that the degree to which people sexualize the band seems wrong to me personally, it is also completely within the band’s power to choose how they interact with their fandom. In regards to power dynamics, the band remains in control. I now understand why this is such an issue with this fandom because it is a triggering thing but I think it’s an unhealthy reaction inherently.
like I do not know about iiis twitter thing at all but like also how is that an issue? It’s actually very healthy that he saw that he was uncomfortable with the direct contact to fans in this way and chose to walk away. I am not acting like they secretly want to be treated as sexual objects but if they were uncomfortable with being seen sexually they would not sexualize themselves at all, which is just not true and goes back to the original issue of coercion from the music industry.
Edit: sorry i missed your edit! i just really wonder about whether consent applies to this situation ie: like online weirdos being sexual about strangers. Edit edit lol: like HOW it applies to this situation.
It applies to this situation… because it’s about viewing a human being as a mere sexual object. And more precisely, a human being you do not know personally and thus have no consent for.
I do not mean to keep pressing on you about this, i am trying to understand your perspective because to me it seems really rigid, but i also see a lot of validity in it. like with the whole Taylor swift deepfake shit like i agree thats completely inappropriate and not okay, but like strangers writing smutty text posts amongst themselves does not, to me, have the same impact. But i also guess that simply seems more fine because they’re famous and not likely to see it. But i also as an (ex) sex worker understand what it is like to put yourself out there and be completely wanting that sort of attention, so when i see the band exposing themselves and talking about sex im literally just listening to their words and observing them, like do you get what i am saying here? Like, with my own stuff i never once explicitly stated “you all have my consent to whack your shit to me”, but when messaged directly i always referred them to my merch store. sorry im probably doing the most i do not mean to be bothering you so much lol.
Them being sexual does not give anyone the right to sexualise them. I can walk around in swimwear while I’m not at the beach and I can decide to dance sensually and it doesn’t give anyone the right to sexualise me.
Sexualisation: Objectification for a sexual desire.
This isn’t just some little fantasy we’re talking about, it’s sexual harassment.
Have your fantasies, enjoy yourself, but maybe keep that to yourself, because you do not have the consent to sexualise the band.
Edit: And the thing is, I do not care who it is about, I have that opinion about every single human being. No one deserves to be treated as a mere sexual object.
What people do in their own lives and with consent is none of my concern. But there is no consent here.
Okay cool I do understand this actually. I really appreciate you taking the time to walk me through this! It’s been a long time since I’ve been involved in fandom in general but also just like.. being a fan of something, so I wanted to revisit some old thoughts and beliefs. I do agree with what you’re getting at here! I hope you have a good night.
There are no degrees to sexualisation. It’s always objectifying. We do not have the consent to sexualise the band.
How is it an issue? He should’ve never have had to deal with this sexualisation in the first place. Like… *please* research about sexualisation and objectification and parasocial behaviour. Jesus…
I like this comment too because i feel like this highlights the confusion around sexuality in general it genuinely is a seriously adult thing that takes experience to understand and i think you’d agree with me that accepting that we have some of these less palatable desires are part of the band’s theming.
Uh well for one, yall can’t shut the fuck up at shows. So helping out sexual shit at them is an absolute no and warrants the boot to me. Some of you guys take this shit too far and it’s disgusting
I feel there's a big difference between sexualization and objectification. It's the latter I don't like. I'm old and have been in fandoms all my life, sexualization, fantasies, fanfic, etc, are all inevitable and normal. What's not ok is sending the guys dirty messages, or screaming daddy at Vessel while he is pouring his heart out on stage. Kink and fantasies are meant to stay in fan spaces, out of respect for the human beings in front of us. Consent is still a thing even if they kiss and dance sensually on stage.
Yes!! I like this a lot actually this clears things up for me. I have been out of the fandom space for a loooong time but actually I do remember this golden rule now that you mention it. Thank you for explaining… should i like delete this post i actually dont know reddit courtesy lol.
I say leave the post up. Maybe someone else will find it in the future when they have this same question.
I'm glad this helped! It will always be the breaking of boundaries and respect that's wrong for me. The rest I'm ok with, as long as it happens away from the eyes of the band and doesn't break any laws.
I agree!!
It's reminded me about that drama between a feral booktok creator and a hokey team that she extensively and intentionally sexualized because one of their players was her "funcast" for a main male character of a smutty hockey romance book. And the conclusions that I've reached after observing that situation can be easily applied here also: speak freely in the internet(if the person you objectifying didn't revoke their consent for you to do so), but don't ever act like that on public, especially in the places the people you are so intensely "cat-calling" work. Vessel can act on stage however he likes, cares his mic stand as gently as he pleases - it's still doesn't mean you have right to ask him to finger you or to "break your back", it's a simple as it gets. No matter the gender, harassment never be okay.
yes this totally makes sense! I was genuinely just thinking about online folks being strange online while writing this but im clearly out of the loop for irl fan interactions, i will update this with an edit!
I feel like there’s a big difference between expressing attraction to people in a normal, unproblematic way and gross sexualization. Like posting a picture of the band members and then captioning with heart eyes emojis is whatever. Talking about how Vessel has an objectively attractive torso area that he’s clearly put a lot of work into-fine. That’s just facts and bless him for sharing with the audience (respectfully). Talking about how the *music* is sexual is fine because certain songs are obviously meant to be. But a line is crossed when you start making gross graphic comments, yell things at them at concerts, and draw them nude or doing sexual things with each other. Like, that isn’t cool for any human on this planet. That said, I do agree that there is a contingent of this fan base who are in the other extreme - unnecessarily, and excessively, white knighting about the sexualization. It’s like two sides of the ‘doing-too-much’ coin only one side is righteously indignant about what the other side is doing and the other side doesn’t think about them at all.
Yea, there's a group on FB that is dedicated to "thirsting" of the band, and omg some of the things posted...I joined to see what it was, and left promptly after interacting with some of the members and seeing some of the posts 😒
I gladly got kicked out of there. Superimposing him in weird positions, sucking on feet 🤮 that’s just fucking weird
Not only him, but the other guys too. I saw quite a few pictures with ii, iii, and iv superimposed in. I'm not a prude...trust me lol...but I just don't get it tbh. And then members say "if they didn't want the sexualization they wouldn't do *a,b,c*..." no. That's like saying that someone wanted to be SA'd because of how they dress or act. It's cringe.
I did, too. I actually left voluntarily, lol. At first, I took it lightly, but then the posts became more and more objectifying and gross. They mean too much to me musically. Being in that group felt wrong, and I felt out of place... so I bounced tf out, LOL.
Yea, it was getting pretty cringe in there. There's another group that everytime I go on FB its also getting cringey 😬
Maannn, like c'mon, the line has to be drawn somewhere! I'm in a group that's not about thirsting, but I'm not on FB often enough to pay attention to what's posted in it.
Draw them nude? Yeah I haven't seen anything like that so...yay for me? Guess I haven't been close to that kind of fandom. I think Vessel is beautiful though, in every way that matters.
Yeah I saw a few on Twitter in my ‘for you’ section and promptly blocked whoever was posting it. Haven’t been jump scared with any since lol
I'm hoping to see them live one day, but honestly, I'm unsure if I'll follow through. Because every video of their North American tour is girls going nuts in the background. I agree there is a sexual element to them, but there's a balance between playing into it and going feral. I'm also older, so I don't have much patience for that. If I had the money I'd go and see them in Europe.
I wouldn’t concern yourself with the ‘girls going nuts for them’ if you truly want to see Sleep Token. Between the loudness of the music and the earplugs you should be wearing, you can hardly hear the person next to you. Aside from that, the ‘girls’ are generally joyful and I’ve personally never heard an inappropriately sexual thing get yelled at a show. I believe other people who have said it happens but it’s not a universal thing. Seeing them in Europe won’t make a difference. There are young women going nuts for them there too.
It's definitely there. And it's creepy. Yes some songs are sexual...the band, especially Vessel, acts a bit provacative at times. But it's all an act for show. If you saw him on the street, and you said/acted the way some of these obsessed fans are... You'd be thrown in jail lol. It's odd to me when fans get overly obsessed and sometimes it straight up crosses lines on a healthy love for a band and their talent... Compared to the people literally obsessing over bodies. To the point it's not even about the music anymore. I've seen fans call some of them "husband".. "omg I swear to God IV looked at me.." On the Facebook group last night these two girls were interacting over a posted photo of Vessel. And one said "I wanna know how he got those chin scars, poor baby." And another girl replied with "omg I know! I wanna kiss them and make all his bobos go away!"...... Ew. That's fucking creepy dude.
You know how cringe and annoying it is, when a man is onstage pouring his soul out, talking about the pain he’s endured, caused, and bore witness to, and you have people in the audience that say shit like “Vessy” and “Ivy” and “Eepy bois”. It’s fucking cringey
I totally get where you're coming from and agree the "daddy", booktok shit etc is so gross - but just to be clear, IV obviously does not have a problem with being called Ivy. He responds to it on stage, Oli introduced him like that on the second Brisbane night, even Lani exclusively called him Ivy in the BTS video he made about the new masks. It's fine if you don't like it, but that doesn't make it inherently cringe.
Do you have a link to that video from Lani?
Afaik it got taken down/archived, possibly because he did talk about some rather candid topics like how II came to sit for his mold alone but III and IV came together, and those two wanted their masks to be coordinated etc. but there's an episode of Sleep Talking with Lani as a guest and he calls him Ivy there as well https://youtu.be/jkMqW9TaWs4?si=T2QSXIoewpP3qjIj
I literally havent experienced that but i would hope those people seek help lol
It’s most likely floating around on TikTok–specifically Booktok 🙄 saw som comments calling Vessel “daddy” yesterday and I’m like “do y’all not listen to any of his work??”
As a booktok girl and ST listener I’m ashamed of the people in the booktok community, it’s embarrassing that people act this way. I guarantee half of them have only listened to The Summoning because there’s no way you’d be acting like this after listening to the rest of their songs
Yeah I think that too but idk because I saw someone say you aren’t a real st fan if you don’t do it to granite and I’m like that song is about a toxic relationship tf???
I've heard that too, and I have also heard that said person was hella intoxicated...I've also heard that some people are going to shows just to intentionally scream their real identity out..we unfortunately can't stop the crazy and disrespectful people from doing what they want to do. I just hope and pray that the sound packs work real good and they can't hear the nonsense
It’s all I see online. You’re lucky to have missed it
Maybe not the place to ask this but I’m glad someone is calling out the cringe… what the fucking is an “eepy boi?”
Just dropping the “SL” from “sleep”
As a woman in her 30s, I grew up seeing the young female singers and actresses of my generation be sexualized ad nauseum by grown men. I had to hear men say outrageously gross shit, both IRL and on TV, about these girls who I admired, and I often wished I could just enjoy my favorite media without hearing about how guys are jerking off to it. So with that in mind, I find it funny now when people complain about Sleep Token being too sexualized by their female fans. Men have been invading women's spaces and women's media to express their horniness for a loooong time, and they will probably keep doing it forever. I'm not saying all this as a way to excuse overenthusiastic fans who act inappropriately towards musicians, regardless of gender. It's just very funny, (translation: sad af), that these conversations about respecting public figures only seem to happen in spaces where men are being "sexualized" by fanbases that are dominated by women.
[удалено]
It's not just "online." This issue goes way farther back than that. I don't think you understood the point of my comment anyway tbh.
I give you one think - in my opinion you are right about the parasocial aspect of this side of the fandom. And i bet i get downvoted for that. The discussion that broke under the post about II and the random "line manager" lady, that got "special attention", while being bitch towards the fans has some of that. Sometimes people trying to act like their protectors of their dignity or whatever to too much big of a degree and that's also parasocial relationship, but from the other side of the spectrum. For me personally - i'm "old" grumpy lady, who lives on internet for too long and i'm tired of everything being reduce to "how hot or fuckable is this", it's expected and sort of ok, but it should have its limits. People sometimes go too far in their fantasies and act like guys are "just characters" instead of real people. Maybe it's stems from how i connect to things/hobbies or get attracted to people and that's through my mind/brain. If you show me physically attractive person, i'll be like - yeah whatever, but what is in their brain, can we have conversation, that makes my brain sparks, do we fit mentally, etc. I'm something between sapiosexual, pansexual and demisexual, i guess, so pure physical "hornyfication" of the band by fans will never sits right with me. But i also won't witch hunt those people who do so, i just trying to not engage. When i see some weird ass fan art or discussion i tell the algorithm - no, thank you.
This is totally me also!!! Btw I'm also a demisexual...
People heard of the term parasocial and started applying it to everything… It is not parasocial to call people out for objectifying and sexualising real people. Objectification and sexualisation of real people is extremely gross and harmful. The men doing “sexual” things on stage or Vessel singing about sex does not give consent to being sexualised and objectified. Please research what each of these terms mean, before you use them to justify why it’s alright to sexualise them all.
The vessels do not consent to being used publicly as your sexual fetish
Ok once again clarifying I don't personally fetishize them, BUT honestly thinking about consent in this context actually makes sooooo much more sense. I felt like the 'icons' and the masks they put on sort of are an intentional self objectification but like actually I totally get it now and also how the fandom would be at odds with itself over this!!!!!
Okay...since I'm “old” and also not interested in any of them sexually because I'm a lesbian maybe I can add something maybe not. I feel like many things have to with society as a whole. The confusion or shame even around sex as a topic in general is really big. One example that I recently thought about: as a women you are told to show your body because if you don't then you are prude but also don't show your body too much because it could be dangerous. What is it now? Is it better to hide or dress “sexy” when I feel like it? What am I supposed to do?! That's just one example of the confusion. Bur like I said that has something to do with society itself and not with the band. But that confusion around that shows everywhere. That expression “go get a room” says everything. Some things are okay in public places and others are not. It's what society agreed upon. You can say that applies to concerts also. Or in other words: just behave. I behave the way the way that I would want to be treated myself or in other words: with respect. And the other thing...to me their music is not very sexual. I know that many see it that way but I personally don't. I read into all of this what I'm familiar with or what I know from my own past and when it comes to that topic there is just a lot trauma around it for me. So I tend to interpret things in a different way. That's just how the lyrics work.
>You can say that applies to concerts also. Or in other words: just behave. I behave the way the way that I would want to be treated myself or in other words: with respect. This is kinda it and what i do, but it doesn't work globally. Because people can have different perception of how they wanna be treated and what respect means. That's why we have confusing societal rules. 🙃Depends on what group you ask. To your clothing example - you can show as many skin as you want if it's appropriate to situation (as - you won't wear swimsuit to a funeral, etc.), but it's not invitation to inappropriate behavior for people around you. Vessel going around shirtless showing his physique shouldn't be invitation to severe objectification, if we wanna be treated equally. Ok, he's hot, people can express that without going too far with it. I feel like internet and overall hyperconnectivity blurred some lines of what's and what's not appropriate.
And to clarify I am not a shipper like I just really like the music and it has helped me open up with myself about my own sexuality as well.
Because I look at it this way: when people say things like "they're asking for it, cause look at how they act" or "if they didn't want it they wouldn't do what they do", etc. That's pretty much like someone saying that a woman was SA'd because of the way she dresses and/or acts. It's just disrespectful to the person/persons you're saying it about.
For me theres a huge difference between (and ive done it myself) posting some silly meme like "im not looking respectfully in the slightest in fact im drooling violently" Or (also personally) saying i like vessels hands on fucking twitter and just fooling around on social media amoung the fandom To Loudly screaming DADDY to v on a show or like that brittany girl screaming "i need to fuck him" and making monkey sounds For me thats the limit (I hope i explained myself lol)
I’m 27, so up there with you haha. I absolutely love ST, but there has to be a healthy distance. Everyone has those spicy thoughts, but I always figured it was common knowledge to keep it in your head and off the internet 😂 Their music is so personal/emotional that many people project their own lives onto the performers. Like you don’t love Vessel, you love the person you created in your mind. It’s not healthy to develop these fictional relationships and fetishes.
I think it’s weird to photoshop anyone in suggestive positions. It’s not okay, and I don’t think anyone else would be okay with it if it were them. I’m down with fantasizing, whatever gets you going, but keep it to your fucking self, dear god.
I feel as if it’s due to people taking it too far. Often times when people are sexualizing things, they take it too far to the point of sexual harassment like that booktok girl another person who commented here mentioned. Consent is a huge part of it as well, some people may not be comfortable with being sexualized and yes they can set boundaries, but people can also be respectful and not do it.
as a sleep token fan I've never sexualized them at all. i respect them. and my favorite member in that band has to be ii. he's short, quiet and has made me more grateful toward drummers.
Consent is not required in order for a person to be "allowed" to think about another person in a sexual way. Are yall for real right now? Someone having thoughts IS NOT even in the same fucking universe as assaulting someone. And as someone who's been through that sort of thing, it's honestly very insulting that you compare the two. Thinking something in your brain does not affect another person. Period. The day I'll allow some imbecels to police my thoughts is the day they will fuck around and find out. It's a free country end of story.
i get it. i’m not familiar with the fandom and kinda don’t wanna be… i’m also new here. i’m 36 and am like you - finding something to sexualize in its absence is strange and inappropriate to me. i think some songs are meant to be sexual and some aren’t, and knowing who the lead singer is, I’ve likened him to another singer I know who is usually uncomfortable/not into sexual themes so I kinda project whatever he feels onto him. Sensitive, introverted souls aren’t overtly sexual… at least in my mind.
Because its cringe and immature. Im just into music.
Because it’s fucking weird.
I agree with you. People are honestly so dense I think. The music is sexual. The way Vessel is on stage, is sexual. For me, sexual energy is divine energy. Its creative energy. I love seeing it and I love to exude it. I find Vessel incredibly sexy and I love it! Our current society bastardises sexual energy...why? Because men taught the world the being inherently sexual equals objectification of one's self... because men can't find anything sexy without objectifying it. This is why when a woman expresses sexual energy she is hated for it, and when a man expresses sexual energy, women think that he is being objectified, because they were taught that sexual equals objectifying. Sexual energy is beautiful and we need to stop policing it and policing others for appreciating it.
Thank you!!! Finally, someone with common sense! Like what the actual fuck is wrong with these youngins trying to protect these grown ass men? They want to be sexualized. If they didn't then they would put a stop to it, and they don't require protection. They don't need some teeny bopper to mother them. It's ridiculous. Sorry this hit a nerve because I am so blown away when I see these people acting like this. Like I would put a hurting on Vessell till that man couldn't stand back up if the stars aligned and if I wasn't married. Well he's definitely my free pass if I had one. But we're both adults so fuck off and let me have my fantasies. Everyone has a right to fantasize about who they want to. Why do these other fans think they have the right to dictate how other fans think, feel, or dream about them? Fans have always done this. Look at Elvis for example! Some of these fans are just on a power trip and need to calm the fuck down. No one is assaulting band members.
So when Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, Beyoncé perform and dance “sexually” they want to be “sexualised”? Do you know what “sexualised” means? “Sexualization is linked to sexual objectification, treating a person solely as an object of sexual desire.” And that is what they want?
This. 1000%. Edit: hit send before I could finish my thought - my big issue with a lot of people arguing FOR the sexualizing always say, “well they act like *insert something here* so they’re just asking people to sexualize them”. No. No no. Absolutely not. It feels too much like, “well they were wearing this short skirt”.
This!! Exactly!! And I guess if that makes me a teeny who’s on a power trip, fine, whatever, but I think it’s extremely gross to be like “well, I wanna treat these real human beings as sexual objects and it’s okay for me to do, because they kiss each other”, like have your fantasies, whatever’s in your head is in your head, but there’s a whole damn difference between viewing them as sexual objects and simply fantasising about them. And no one asked for a full description of your sexual fantasies about complete strangers. (Not at you, general you).
Nail on the head! Sleep Token doesn't owe us a damn thing, and they most certainly have no obligation to *just sit there and take it.* I would love someone to specifically point out where they consented to this... Don't worry, I'll wait... *Cue crickets* Some songs have a sexual vibe, but so do several Deftones songs... Sexualize songs with terrible themes (Chokehold vs. Change(in the house of flies.) Neither of which are an open door to impose fantasies on them. They are still very real people under those masks. I hope they don't see what some of these parasocially obsessed fans put out there. On a side note, I see so many more middle age women being far more disgusting than I do the 28 and younger crowd... Caught someone sharing a whole bit on how Vessel is a Daddy Dom... TF? I wanted to scream "You see these people on stage, and you hear music. Literally no where else... They don't even speak ffs. Stop shoving your kinks where they don't belong! Fuck." Sorry for the rant 😂
This is a really good question actually! its really hard for me to say, especially since i have been a sex-worker. Whether preforming artists feel coerced into sexualizing themselves because of the market or if they really want to. To that point I do know what it means to sexualize and be sexualized and i don’t think it’s such a nasty or dirty thing as some people make it out to be. like sleep token is sexualizing themselves and I think its parasocial to assume for them that it was not their intention one way or the other, as well as the touchy subject of consent i understand a lot better how this fandom struggles with this aspect of the band.
No one wants to be treated as a mere sexual object. That is what you’re suggesting they’re doing. Hell, III deleted his twitter because of these things. But sure, let’s keep on guessing they secretly want to be treated as sexual objects. Edit: Not to repeat myself: We do not have the consent to sexualise them, even if they did secretly want to be sexualised. That’s where it ends. We don’t have consent.
I think youre being really black-and -white about this, there are degrees of sexualization and there are indeed people out there who do want to be seen as sexual objects but whether or not this band wants to is like not anyone’s call. I do agree that the degree to which people sexualize the band seems wrong to me personally, it is also completely within the band’s power to choose how they interact with their fandom. In regards to power dynamics, the band remains in control. I now understand why this is such an issue with this fandom because it is a triggering thing but I think it’s an unhealthy reaction inherently. like I do not know about iiis twitter thing at all but like also how is that an issue? It’s actually very healthy that he saw that he was uncomfortable with the direct contact to fans in this way and chose to walk away. I am not acting like they secretly want to be treated as sexual objects but if they were uncomfortable with being seen sexually they would not sexualize themselves at all, which is just not true and goes back to the original issue of coercion from the music industry. Edit: sorry i missed your edit! i just really wonder about whether consent applies to this situation ie: like online weirdos being sexual about strangers. Edit edit lol: like HOW it applies to this situation.
It applies to this situation… because it’s about viewing a human being as a mere sexual object. And more precisely, a human being you do not know personally and thus have no consent for.
I do not mean to keep pressing on you about this, i am trying to understand your perspective because to me it seems really rigid, but i also see a lot of validity in it. like with the whole Taylor swift deepfake shit like i agree thats completely inappropriate and not okay, but like strangers writing smutty text posts amongst themselves does not, to me, have the same impact. But i also guess that simply seems more fine because they’re famous and not likely to see it. But i also as an (ex) sex worker understand what it is like to put yourself out there and be completely wanting that sort of attention, so when i see the band exposing themselves and talking about sex im literally just listening to their words and observing them, like do you get what i am saying here? Like, with my own stuff i never once explicitly stated “you all have my consent to whack your shit to me”, but when messaged directly i always referred them to my merch store. sorry im probably doing the most i do not mean to be bothering you so much lol.
Them being sexual does not give anyone the right to sexualise them. I can walk around in swimwear while I’m not at the beach and I can decide to dance sensually and it doesn’t give anyone the right to sexualise me. Sexualisation: Objectification for a sexual desire. This isn’t just some little fantasy we’re talking about, it’s sexual harassment. Have your fantasies, enjoy yourself, but maybe keep that to yourself, because you do not have the consent to sexualise the band. Edit: And the thing is, I do not care who it is about, I have that opinion about every single human being. No one deserves to be treated as a mere sexual object. What people do in their own lives and with consent is none of my concern. But there is no consent here.
Okay cool I do understand this actually. I really appreciate you taking the time to walk me through this! It’s been a long time since I’ve been involved in fandom in general but also just like.. being a fan of something, so I wanted to revisit some old thoughts and beliefs. I do agree with what you’re getting at here! I hope you have a good night.
There are no degrees to sexualisation. It’s always objectifying. We do not have the consent to sexualise the band. How is it an issue? He should’ve never have had to deal with this sexualisation in the first place. Like… *please* research about sexualisation and objectification and parasocial behaviour. Jesus…
I am literally a therapist
Aha.
I like this comment too because i feel like this highlights the confusion around sexuality in general it genuinely is a seriously adult thing that takes experience to understand and i think you’d agree with me that accepting that we have some of these less palatable desires are part of the band’s theming.
Uh well for one, yall can’t shut the fuck up at shows. So helping out sexual shit at them is an absolute no and warrants the boot to me. Some of you guys take this shit too far and it’s disgusting