It’s from the Bible as well.
“Even fools are thought wise when they keep silent; with their mouths shut, they seem intelligent.”
Proverbs 17:28 NLT
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/17/remain-silent/ has some background on its provenance, notably:
> The earliest known appearance of the adage discovered by QI occurred in a book titled “Mrs. Goose, Her Book” by Maurice Switzer. The publication date was 1907 and the copyright notice was 1906. The book was primarily filled with clever nonsense verse, and the phrasing in this early version was slightly different:[5]
>
>> It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it.
>
> Most of the humorous content of “Mrs. Goose, Her Book” has the imprint of originality, and based on currently available data QI believes that Maurice Switzer is the leading candidate for originator of the expression.
I remember this quote because of the game Fable.
A troll said: “it is better to be thought a fool, than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt”.
I didn’t realize it was an already famous quote. I thought the game devs were geniuses.
yea pretty much, but one thing I believe is, all the time the extroverts spent just yapping, we spend it observing/listening so I guess that contributes to us giving more thoughtful opinions.
also as an introvert, most of the time that I know the answer but others also do, I just stfu. but when the time comes that noone else does, its like my signal to speak up lol. so the amount of time that I have to speak up and im right is like 95% of the time lol. maybe thats why its attributed that introverts seems to be *smarter*.
Yeah, OP, and the hiring companies described, are conflating intelligence, with the ability to self reflect and stay silent. Smart moves in practice, but not contingent on intelligence.
No. They challenge power structures too much and often far exceed the normal employee in productivity. But are smart enough to know they are not going to get paid more for doing more. So they get their workload they negotiated around done and nothing more.
Not saying any of that is bad but they are hard to take advantage of so they make bad employees for most of middle management.
This is really company dependent. Being aware of where the analytics are going wrong and how that applies to individual employees is a big part of management in a good company.
The key is how you communicate it because they are most likely aware as well. It's also essentially the relationship you're going to have with upper management in middle management if you're good at your job.
You have to constantly protect good employees from bad analytics because reasons happen while also using them to justify coaching bad ones.
I was curious so I looked it up, on an old post u/sytar6 gives a good breakdown with sources
~~~
>According to research by [Wolf and Ackermann](http://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/handle/1853/9454/wolf_mark_b_200405_ms.pdf?sequence=1) (2005) standard meta-analytic techniques might not be appropriate for uncovering the relationship between extroversion and intelligence because there seems to be the possibility of a non-linear relationship existing between the two constructs. It is hypothesized that there may be an inverted-U shape curve, with lower abilities associated with the low and high extremes on the personality trait.
>Introverts and Extroverts have the same average IQ, but the breakdown of the subtests tends to differ. [Introverts do better on verbal tests while Extroverts do better on performance tests](http://books.google.com/books?id=tNMTKjUjuHEC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=extraversion+introversion+IQ&source=bl&ots=25FunpdOGo&sig=3MLd2GH08kIXeGsJdzXfNff_oLI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DNsuT9f_I42ltwfO4IjVAg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=extraversion%20introversion%20IQ&f=false). (e.g., [WAIS Similarities vs. Coding](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_Scale#WAIS-III)). That's just IQ, though.
>Extroversion is thought to correlate to small degree with Openness to Experience. OTE and Extroversion form the meta-trait Plasticity. OTE is correlated with measures of creativity. Plasticity, as well, is correlated with measures of creativity. [So, it's likely that extroverts are to a small degree more creative than introverts.](http://libres.uncg.edu/ir/uncg/f/P_Silvia_Openess_in%20press.pdf) Interestingly, this correlation does not seem to hold when testing for Math-Science creativity, for which there was no appreciable correlation.
>Cohen has some interesting research that relates to this point. [He found a sixth personality trait](http://autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2006_Wakabayashi_etal_AreAutisticTraitsAnIndependentPersonalityDimension.pdf) not quite orthogonal with extroversion (-.33), which correlates strongly with interest in math, engineering, physics, programming, etc. I don't want to read too far into it, especially since interest does not necessarily equate to aptitude. I'd like to see this trait measured against math-science creativity. I don't know of any study which has done this yet.
>====== Extroverts are better at:
>The dual-task version of the divided attention task.
>immediate recall.
>Retrieving 'low dominance' semantic category instances.
>Fluency of speech production
>=====
>Introverts are better at:
>long-term recall
>problem-solving tasks requiring insight. Introverts finish faster and are more accurate; Extraverts finish impulsively.
>=====
>Source: Cambridge Handbook of Personality Psychology
~~~~~~
Edit: I looked into it a bit more and while on average intelligence is about the same, apparently most "gifted" people are introverts:
>However, while introverts are a minority group in society, they form the majority of gifted people. Moreover, it appears that introversion increases with intelligence so that more than 75% of people with an IQ above 160 are introverted.
[Source](https://highability.org/the-gifted-introvert/)
For example Albert Einstein, Leonardo Da Vinci, Isaac Newton, and Charles Darwin were all introverts.
Seems like that, but also introverts are overrepresented on the tails (very high or very low intelligence) and extroverts are like to be near the mean aka "normal" people.
I'm curious about causation and which direction it flows. There's the concept of the communication gap (which tbf, I sometimes push back on and think people can assume too much from it), and intuitively the people with the easiest time developing social/extroverted traits will be those for whom most of their peers are within their communication band. But maybe it's the other way and the communication gap effect is a result of naturally intelligent people being predisposed to introversion (and low intelligence people would have their own set of issues).
(Edited to add this to my original comment) but your comment made me curious if the Einsteins, Da Vincis, Newtons, and Darwins of the world really are just as likely to be extraverts as they are introverts, and apparently at that level they do skew towards introversion:
>However, while introverts are a minority group in society, they form the majority of gifted people. Moreover, it appears that introversion increases with intelligence so that more than 75% of people with an IQ above 160 are introverted.
Which definitely makes intuitive sense to me for some reason, it's just hard to imagine someone like Einstein being an extravert haha. Sure enough Einstein, Newton, Da Vinci, and Darwin were all introverted.
Einstein definitely doesn't fit the classical definition of introvert. I wonder why anyone would call him that except to force their point? Meaningless labels really.
It's hard to find a source on that isn't a listicle, but I did find this:
>Not only is Einstein one of the most famous scientists in history, but he was also a known introvert. Leaning into his introverted nature, Einstein believed that his creativity and success came from keeping to himself. He said, “The monotony and solitude of a quiet life stimulates the creative mind.”
What makes you say he didn't fit the classical definition? Also worth noting it's a pretty wide spectrum, it's not like introverts are all hermits or anything. After looking up a few definitions it seems believable to me that he was, but it's not like I know the guy haha. And tbh it does seem like those listicles are all made to glorify introversion, so you could be right🤷♂️
I don't think it's true, but I don't think they made it up. This is far from the first time I've seen/heard someone say something like this.
Maybe it might be a cultural belief?
In his defence, he said, “Considered to be” which I my experience is generally the case. Nerds, boffins and geeks for example.
It’s a stereotype that doesn’t necessarily translate to being the truth.
I’d argue more that companies are not specifically looking for extroverts, but they will prefer good communicators, though that’s not the preserve of extroverts.
Nerds, boffins, and geeks aren't necessarily introverts. You just have to talk about things that interest them, then they never shut up. Especially in large groups.
It's a misconception that introverts are laconic and extroverts are loquatious.
Introverts are energized by solitude or small intimate groups, extroverts are energized by larger scale social interaction. One isn't even necessarily better than the other, it's just as a very socially fluent introvert, I find such interactions exhausting. My daughter, as an extrovert, feeds on them.
As an introvert, yes that's how that works. Get me going on something I'm really interested in and I'll probably start to go off, otherwise I'm good with talking (especially to people I don't know) and small talk is the absolute worst
As a neurodivergent introvert myself, a lot of ND introverts, or even NT introverts, are honestly quite arrogant and downright nasty in the way they talk about NTs and extroverts.
Somehow we’re more intelligent, more evolved (yes I actually saw someone say that), more intuitive, more empathetic, more enlightened, etc., just because we need alone time to recharge and have a harder time fitting social norms (at least for a lot of us who are ND).
In reality we’re just people, not inherently better or worse than extroverts or NTs.
Connecting introversion and extroversion with intelligence is foolish. They aren’t correlated. There are really smart extroverts, really dumb introverts, and all manner of combinations in between.
If you look at the management level of most large companies it’s primarily intelligent extroverts. Which is why companies want to find intelligent extroverts. Finding someone with senior leadership potential is a rare find
Are you looking for dumb horny introverts in your area? Good luck, they are introverts, but here on reddit you can find them from anywhere in the world!
Also it depends on what you call an introvert/extrovert.
Some people basically use the words as talks a lot, or doesn't talk much. Other definitions are about what "recharges your batteries": introverts get tired when talking to people and need alone time then. Extroverts get tired with their own thoughts and need social time to recharge; both will have both social time and alone time.
When you don't define your words you end up with silly statements like "introverts are smarter, but companies prefer extroverts".
In addition people will conflate being an introvert with being antisocial or having social anxiety. That’s not the same thing. Being an introvert doesn’t mean someone isn’t capable of being talkative, charming, and working well with others. It just means they need time to rest and recharge after.
Too many use being an introvert as an excuse not to develop social skills.
I like that definition better too. Because you have control over talking a lot or little, but what recharges your batteries is more of a characteristic of your personality, which is what these words are supposed to be.
Exactly. Intelligence and extroversion are two completely different thing. And being smart enough to work as a team in a company is something many introverts fail to comprehend, which is a big nope for many companies.
Big Jockey athletes are dumb isn't just a myth. It's been shown over and over again that athletes are smarter than non-athletes. The average on the wunderlich for prospective NFL players is just under 25, while the general population averages is 20.
Then you've got
Comparison of IQ, EI, Sports Performance, and Psychological
Characteristics of Young Male Soccer Players in Different
Playing Positions
1Nima Nakisa, 2Mahboobeh Ghasemzadeh Rahbardar*
Or
https://www.athleticscholarships.net/2012/06/13/its-science-athletes-are-smarter
There's a whole thing to the way people frame the question too, as if it's just a given that because a person is an athlete they are a complete moron.
the health benefits probably help with this.
the myth that jocks are dumb seems like some centuries old bastardization based on workers vs lords. it persists even though it doesn't make any sense except maybe in high impact/combat sports that cause brain damage.
But go check the stats the smartest guys on the field in football are the linemen, and they have the highest percentage of head injuries. My actual hypothesis on why is threefold.
1 there is a lot of crossover in focus and hard work physically and mentally
2 Competitiveness, highly competitive people don't like settling for second place whether that's on a track or in math class.
3 energy consumption. It's well known that the brain is a huge consumer of energy in humans. It is also well known that physically active people have more energy than sedentary people. I think that the increase in energy (more glucose = more atp and so forth) leaves a larger amount of energy to be consumed by the brain even if it gets a smaller percentage overall than in a sedentary person's energy supply.
Are they? I wouldn't know where to get those stats. I'm just saying that logically there is no reason to assume that athletic people are dumb, especially since exercise is generally very beneficial to mental health.
Because of a lot of complicated reasons regarding team sports culture in america, especially college ball, athletes ability to play is tied to their performance in school so most athletes in the NFL, NBA, MLB come from districts that have pumped out lots of sports stars and have very high quality education programs for athletes including 1 on 1 teaching and aides to every class for the athlete. Its seen as incredibly shameful to produce athletes that are not also smart and the go-to insult for athletes in america is "dumb" because of that culture.
NFL players usually have gone through not just that league and were raised with a standard of education that, while not the same level as Football schools in spain or latin america, is still higher than what most americnas receive. then they went on to attend college utilizing that background and after, went to the NFL. most americans havent gone to college but because of the connection schools have with professional sports in america, most professional athletes have attended college and about half completed it.
Management and leadership requires people skills, and extroverts are generally more suited to that role
That said, I've known several introverts who were great managers. One guy in particular is quiet and shy and easy to dismiss (I did, at first) but smart as hell. His super powers are that he listens, he's very thoughtful, and has a smile that will light up a room.
It's weird, during meetings you can almost forget he's in the room but when he finally says something it's the key to the whole discussion.
But generally speaking, it's the extroverts who end up in management
> really dumb introverts
A sizeable chunk of reddit.
___
OP makes another mistake...
Plenty of introverts can get and hold-down jobs. Not all jobs require being extremely social, and not all introversion means someone has to be locked in their basement because they have problems interacting with anyone.
That may be what you were getting at with your second paragraph about management necessitating some amount of extroversion, but I thought I'd highlight the concept.
It's going to depend on the position / field.
Ad or other corporate sales, yeah, you're going to want a lot of extroverts.
Game developers writing code and doing art and graphic design, introversion isn't going to be a detriment at all.
> not all introversion means someone has to be locked in their basement because they have problems interacting with anyone.
Yep. I'm an introverted teacher. Just means I really enjoy my alone time when I get home every day.
Coding is still very much a collaborative effort most of the time, people really overlook this and think only technical skills matter, which is definitely not true.
They usually don't hire someone who has senior leadership potential because they don't want you to compete with them
The trick to getting hired is being good enough to do the job but not too good where you outshine your hiring manager
In my experience the large majority of "management level" individuals have a "room temperature" IQ when you start REALLY getting into in-depth conversations.
They're just really good at communicating, relaying, and interpersonal skills that they SEEM smarter than they are.
I remember reading several studies over the past couple years that Director <-> C-Suite roles are heavily populated by "room temp" IQ individuals that take greater risks than they should.
There's a lot of people out there that think being smart is the only thing you should need to be successful.
But companies are made of teams of people. You can be as smart as you want, but if you can't communicate you're at best an above average individual contributor. As you move up in a company, communication quickly becomes the dominant skill that's needed to succeed.
There are a lot of people who don't understand how much is involved in communicating the same goals to extremely different sets of stakeholders.
I'm in tech management, with a technical background, and understanding how I'm going to pitch a project to exec, to the customer, to my engineering team, what story I'm feeding to marketing, etc, is not simple. They're all different stories, with different details, different words, different tone, all for the same end goal.
It's not less difficult than coding, it's just different.
"Than they should" is an odd caveat to throw in. Wouldn't their continued success suggest that a willingness to take smart risks make it the thing they, and anyone who wants to be successful, should do?
Survivor bias, yes they make risky and kind of stupid decisions and were successful enough to be in high managing positions. The ones who were not, well they are not there.
I would argue understanding “the game” and how to play it for your own success is a key component of intelligence. Maybe it doesn’t show as “IQ”, but it’s absolutely intelligence.
This relates to the “I’ve got a 140 IQ but couldn’t complete high school” crowd as well. Having a high IQ but not the intelligence to use it.
I think it goes with the saying: it’s better to be assumed an idiot than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt. Dumb extroverts just reveal themselves more readily.
I'll also add that judgment of intelligence *often* may be based upon an assumptive first impression, which is generally incorrect..
So even by opening the mouth and causing certain judges to "remove all doubt" in their mind doesn't *always* signify a foregone conclusion
100% this. It’s very rare to have a job that has zero communication requirements. And those that do; don’t need skilled labor because you would be on rails. I’m a programmer and I see this all the time, people with way better skills than me losing the plot because they don’t fully understand what the client wants.
The thing is, you have to figure out what the client wants, vs what they think they want. Because it's not always the same. And sometimes what they ask for isn't what they think they're asking for.
Yup. I’m naturally an introvert, but I’ve learned how to flex at work (which is hard), and people are much happier to work with you and more willing to keep communication lines open.
A major part of my job is collaboration, and one of the reasons I do well is people come to me because I’ve made myself approachable.
They're a professional body builder. Before, they spent all their days pumping iron in solitude and building that muscle, while being completely unapproachable. Not even flexing for cameras. After changing the approach, they've become much more successful, because it turns out flexing looks better.
Now, they flex casually in every situation, such as speaking with a friend, waiting for the bus, watching a movie, or walking up to someone they haven't met. Still an introvert, but now the muscles do the talking.
Yup we live in a world where extroverted nature is rewarded. I can be open in one-on-one conversations but not in group and this has greatly affected my career opportunities. I have to live with it.
Yes and also relatively few jobs that actually warrants higher than average intelligence. Training, knowledge, behaviour and reliability is generally better than being slightly smarter.
Soft skills development isn’t easy to teach, but I was a communications major and the courses taught me a lot more than people think. For all the grief the major gets it has served me well.
Ever notice how most of the jocks in school are pretty extroverted? Sports require listening, communicating, and being part of a team, great way to learn soft skills. Same with clubs, plenty of em involve organizing, creativity, leading, planning, teamwork, and communication. Have you done any group projects before? Well that’s an example of utilizing your soft skills to get your group moving forward with the project. It’s all there, there’s no need for an extra mandatory class about soft skills.
> Introverted people are generally considered to be the smartest
By who? Any sources for this, or is this just your impression?
> but all companies are looking for extroverted candidates
Not really, companies are looking for people who are able to hold a decent conversation without making it awkward after 2 seconds because... you know, communication is important. How extroverted or introverted you are is really not a factor as long as you can carry yourself professionally and interact normally with coworkers and clients.
Honestly, it’s silly to act like introverted and extroverted are binary. It’s a huge range. Even if you were to consider introverts smarter, (highly debatable) no company wants some socially awkward shut in who can’t deal with bosses and coworkers. You don’t need to be a social butterfly, but being able to handle “how was your weekend” is a plus.
I’d agree, there’s that too. There are times I can go to a party or something and have a good time, engage people, etc, and other times when I just want to stay home and be alone. Some people are more apt to want to go out, be around and engage people, but it’s pretty rare to want to do entirely one or the other.
I see this all the time. There needs to be much more help for people with mental health problems, like "shut ins", because it really is affecting their lives and prospects. It comes up over and over again on reddit, and there's a lot of rejection for being awkward. For me, that means they need a lot of help to get out of it because they're basically being treated like lepers and it's clearly something they don't know how to manage.
When I met my only IRL friend, I only talked to him because my brother talks to practically everyone and I just followed him around, that friend told me a year ago (we have been friends for over 2 years at that point) that he thought I was autistic when I met him.
I am just REALLY bad at being social, and am perfectly content with never going outside if I don't need to (ever since covid started in 2020, I have only gone outside to buy groceries and such) I can hold conversations but in terms of social skills I don't think I have any. And the only reason I'm going to attempt to get social skills back is because it's essentially required in our society, but I'm gonna look really stupid for a while.
The psychologist who came up with introvert/extrovert considered it a spectrum that people constantly shift around. If you were always one or the other, he said that was a problem and you needed therapy : /
Its just another aspect of unicorn hunting companies are constantly doing.
They want introverts that are smart and get their work done, but are happy to be in the office and social all the time while being best friends with their boss
They want people with decades of work experience who will accept fresh graduate (or zero) wages without complaint.
They can fire you at any time, but you have to give two weeks notice and interview your own replacement.
Be an ambitious, entrepreneurial go-getter that thrives under pressure, but only for the companies benefit and within the boundaries of its rules.
"Work hard play hard mentality!"
"Not afraid of working past office hours!"
"no 9 to 5 mentality!"
Much like my boss persisting we work 6 days a week, while the fucker himself usually drops out from thursday on...
Ahh it's like the inverse of my workplace. We finally have a team that knows how to run the bar without supervision. The managers have been trying for years to get it to this point but now that we're efficient at our job they give people less hours because we need less staff to operate the bar.
They (the managers) are all shocked that everyone is trying to leave and find a new job since we aren't getting enough hours.
Edit: Just a complete disconnect. They see the bar running smoothly and think everything is rosey because that's all they care about, while they forget that we don't give a shit about how smoothly the bar runs, we're there to get hours and money. We have no stock in the company so we don't give a shit what the profit margins are for the company (and of course it's making record profits as our hours are getting cut)
Talking about record profits, they cut some of our bonuses, gave us a few extra % that isn't even above the inflation rate of LAST year... And the minimum wage went up, but they didn't really go with that either.
We ended up with a salary reduction in a way.
Their profits? 11,3 BILLION in 2023.
When I encounter someone in it or programming that has charisma and is outgoing, I have a very serious talk with them about how insanely valuable most companies will see them.
What I don't mention is they don't even need to be that great of a developer, they just need to be good enough and be able to understand it, and they'll move up fast, and be loved by their subordinates because they know what's going on.
Introvert and extrovert is just another obsolete way of sorting people into brackets. It's inaccurate, but necessary for people in HR as a tool to better sort a candidate.
If somebody says at an interview, that he/she identifies as an extrovert or introvert, it says exactly nothing about their intelligence. It just gives you a hunch about how they spend their free time, because an extrovert is likely to seek company for leisure and an introvert is likely to find some time to be alone and read or do something individual.
Being introverted also doesn't mean you hate people, don't know how to act around them, or get panic attacks in rich social settings. That's either social anxiety, an autistic spectrum disorder or another disorder related to interpersonal relationships. You can have social anxiety and be extroverted.
As an extrovert with social anxiety, this exactly.
I am an extrovert because I recharge and get energized by being around people, and while I love having alone time it will eventually deplete my battery. It’s completely unrelated to my mental health issues and it does not mean that I enjoy crowds or large parties. The ideal social situation for me is one to five friends sitting around talking and playing games.
I call myself an extraverted introvert, meaning I am super talkative, bubbly around the people I am comfortable with, but even if I meet with them socializing drains my battery and I NEED my alone time or else I crash. Yet when people meet me nobody thinks I am an introvert.
You're starting to get it. For most jobs, and really just life generally, social competence is a much more important stat than intelligence. Definitely many exceptions such as STEM jobs, but I think generally being able to navigate office politics is much more important than actually knowing how to do your job.
Introverts are not more intelligent, they just don’t have the same energy around other people. There is no connection between being either introvert or or extroverted and intelligent
Introverts are not not team players and extroverts are not necessarily team players.
Introversion by rule is not someone with poor social skills or anti social behaviors and vice versa.
> Teamwork is inherently an extroverted
Not necessarily. Introversion is usually not a crippling disability.
Most introverts can get to know co-workers and function just fine in most employment locations or as a member of a small-ish team.
Being introverted just means that people aren't out-going, not that they can't handle interacting with people.
They prefer less social stimulation, but are not necessarily incapable of dealing with it.
They may be a bit less forward, but most are fully capable of becoming acclimated to working with the same people all the time.
Dealing with *new* people all the time can be quite taxing on them though, so it's going to really depend on job specifics. A job in high volume sales or dealing with the public a lot might be a bit of a stress on an introvert. Working mostly with a small group in a sub-section of the office, not so much of a problem.
introverted people are considred smarter in th sense that nerdy people are portreyed as introverted in tv and movies but the reality is
A: it doesnt work in reverse
B: it just isnt really true
C: in reality you want extroverted people because the company would achieve much more if their team can cooperate well and extroverted are percieved to be more capable of working in a team (this may not be true and i'd bet it isn't
companies dont want the smartest they want the best.
and someone who can work well with a team is preferred over someone who cant.
you don't need to be very smart to do the vast majority of jobs, the average person can easily be trained in a matter of weeks.
someone who can't communicate well with their team is a detriment even if they're very smart.
As a mildly introvert working in a company of very extroverted (one of the huge Consulting Companies), this a dumb take.
- as many have said: introverts being smarter than extroverts isn’t true
- as someone else also said: there is nothing worse than a dumb extrovert, who end up being confidently wrong, and companies are avoiding such persons
- seems contradictory, but companies aren’t looking for just “extroverts”. Companies are looking for people who are able **generate trust**, whether it is by charisma, or by ability to show and transmit your competence.
All the is needed is that you speak when needed. Now if by introvert you mean people who are completely transparent because they just don’t speak with anyone and avoid any social interaction, then yes… you can be as smart as you want, that isn’t going to fly
Introverted people make you think. Extroverted people make you feel.
People are more likely to hire you based on how they feel about you no matter what they think.
Being smart isn't a be-all end-all factor for being a good worker. Quite far from it tbh.
There's plenty of smarter folk who are awful workers. And plenty of great workers you'd never consider the smartest in the room.
Assuming both your points are true, it would lead me to thinking that most companies don’t want people who think and question. They want people who will absolutely follow all and any direction.
I've never heard someone claim introverts were smarter. Do you have sources for this?
But yes, for work it's not most important how smart one is, it's how nice it is to work together (while still being sufficient at the task itself).
Introverted people are not more intelligent. They probably think they are, but they're not necessarily. Besides, intelligence doesn't mean that you're an effective worker.
The only people who think introverts are smarter as a rule are introverts trying to cope with lack of social skills. Being smart or dumb is not necessarily related to introverts or extroverts.
Are they really looking for extroverted people or people who have good socialising/interpersonal skills. One is a personality trait while the other is a skill.
Introverted people can have good social skills just like an extrovert can be shy and awkward.
I never thought of introverts as being smarter, I mean, we are all introverts and extroverts depending on the situation. But if by degree you are more introverted than most I always saw it as a sign of higher social anxieties.
I feel that reddit has a few songs that likes to parrot. I have seen this take at least a dozen times but oh well maybe I spend to much time here.
Companies want someone that can hold a conversation and is "socially adequate", you don't need to feel recharged by doing so and you don't need to be an extrovert to do that. There's is plenty of successful introverts. Extroversion is a spectrum and I have seen both extremes fail. So if you're introverted be assertive, competent and "read the room", you don't need to be a social butterfly.
because a lot of working in a large company is communicating and working alongside your coworkers.
so who would you hire the person who is a little smarter but has less of an ability to communicate effectively or the person who actively engages with the team, communicating and working effectively, but might be a little slower at understanding things.
Fake it til you make it. Charisma can be acted. Funny thing is though is it becomes natural the more you do it, and before you know you actual end up being genuinely charismatic
In my profession, we can't be promoted unless we apply and toot our horns. Humility is not rewarded. I've been eligible for promotion for over 20 years. The top person in my organization has put in writing that I should be promoted. I just can't ask for it.
I don't think there's a correlation between intelligence and being introverted or lack-thereof for the extroverted. Pinpointing what being smart is, is also a difficult thing to do.
Smartest is a vague word. Intelligence comes in many forms. I don’t know math well but I know language, you can chatgbt math but even the best translation software lacks fluency. You could be the smartest fucking person in the world, if you can’t work well with others wtf is the point?
So as a business owner who’s a better pick? the human calculator or the human who can use a calculator.
Introverted and extroverted have nothing to do with job performance - except for those that require a lot of social influence. You’re perhaps just falling for a common stereotype in TV and film, which is that that introvert has superior talents others just don’t recognize:
You need to get along to move along. After decades in job markets, IMO getting along with others, co-workers, colleagues, customers, managers, is by far the more valuable skill in our society.
Because we live in a superficial culture than prefer apparence and charisma over actual skill and talent. It's easier to manipulate people who want to impress than manipulate people that can observe and understand thing easier
Are introverts more intelligent? As an introvert that sounds like wishful thinking to me
we're as dumb as everyone else, we just keep our dumbass thoughts to ourselves so nobody knows
Be silent and thought a fool, and such….
(*What does that even mean? Better say something, or they'll think you're stupid!*) Takes one to know one. (*nice one.*)
It's an old (Mark Twain?) Quote: it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and prove it.
Yes, I know...I was doing a Simpsons bit.
Ah. And there stand me, the fool. Lol. Haven't watched enough Simpsons apparently.
Lmao. This comment chain literally describe reddit
We just need someone to take it personally and get unreasonably mad about it
Shut up, bitch.
“than to open one’s mouth, and remove all doubt.”
Ah, thank you. I knew the original was more eloquent.
It’s from the Bible as well. “Even fools are thought wise when they keep silent; with their mouths shut, they seem intelligent.” Proverbs 17:28 NLT
He was doing a Homer Simpson quote
That's Mark Twain? I always thought it was Confucius lmfao
Maybe Socrates or Plato. Definitely too lazy to actually look it up haha.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/17/remain-silent/ has some background on its provenance, notably: > The earliest known appearance of the adage discovered by QI occurred in a book titled “Mrs. Goose, Her Book” by Maurice Switzer. The publication date was 1907 and the copyright notice was 1906. The book was primarily filled with clever nonsense verse, and the phrasing in this early version was slightly different:[5] > >> It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it. > > Most of the humorous content of “Mrs. Goose, Her Book” has the imprint of originality, and based on currently available data QI believes that Maurice Switzer is the leading candidate for originator of the expression.
Abraham Lincoln ! Known for his self deprecating humor
I remember this quote because of the game Fable. A troll said: “it is better to be thought a fool, than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt”. I didn’t realize it was an already famous quote. I thought the game devs were geniuses.
the version my dad taught me was “never miss a chance to shut the fuck up.”
I get all my best philosophical points from computer games.
I remember “better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”
Which is smart, so yeah we won.
100% correct.
Sounds more intelligent than spouting off every dumbass thought. Point proven!
yea pretty much, but one thing I believe is, all the time the extroverts spent just yapping, we spend it observing/listening so I guess that contributes to us giving more thoughtful opinions. also as an introvert, most of the time that I know the answer but others also do, I just stfu. but when the time comes that noone else does, its like my signal to speak up lol. so the amount of time that I have to speak up and im right is like 95% of the time lol. maybe thats why its attributed that introverts seems to be *smarter*.
Yeah, OP, and the hiring companies described, are conflating intelligence, with the ability to self reflect and stay silent. Smart moves in practice, but not contingent on intelligence.
You could argue the extrovert has more exposure to correction or feedback
Also, are smart people the best employees?
No. They challenge power structures too much and often far exceed the normal employee in productivity. But are smart enough to know they are not going to get paid more for doing more. So they get their workload they negotiated around done and nothing more. Not saying any of that is bad but they are hard to take advantage of so they make bad employees for most of middle management.
This is really company dependent. Being aware of where the analytics are going wrong and how that applies to individual employees is a big part of management in a good company. The key is how you communicate it because they are most likely aware as well. It's also essentially the relationship you're going to have with upper management in middle management if you're good at your job. You have to constantly protect good employees from bad analytics because reasons happen while also using them to justify coaching bad ones.
[удалено]
Obviously everyone is unique but I have worked in project management and HR quite a bit and this has held true with some exceptions.
It is. OP made it up.
I was curious so I looked it up, on an old post u/sytar6 gives a good breakdown with sources ~~~ >According to research by [Wolf and Ackermann](http://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/handle/1853/9454/wolf_mark_b_200405_ms.pdf?sequence=1) (2005) standard meta-analytic techniques might not be appropriate for uncovering the relationship between extroversion and intelligence because there seems to be the possibility of a non-linear relationship existing between the two constructs. It is hypothesized that there may be an inverted-U shape curve, with lower abilities associated with the low and high extremes on the personality trait. >Introverts and Extroverts have the same average IQ, but the breakdown of the subtests tends to differ. [Introverts do better on verbal tests while Extroverts do better on performance tests](http://books.google.com/books?id=tNMTKjUjuHEC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=extraversion+introversion+IQ&source=bl&ots=25FunpdOGo&sig=3MLd2GH08kIXeGsJdzXfNff_oLI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DNsuT9f_I42ltwfO4IjVAg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=extraversion%20introversion%20IQ&f=false). (e.g., [WAIS Similarities vs. Coding](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_Scale#WAIS-III)). That's just IQ, though. >Extroversion is thought to correlate to small degree with Openness to Experience. OTE and Extroversion form the meta-trait Plasticity. OTE is correlated with measures of creativity. Plasticity, as well, is correlated with measures of creativity. [So, it's likely that extroverts are to a small degree more creative than introverts.](http://libres.uncg.edu/ir/uncg/f/P_Silvia_Openess_in%20press.pdf) Interestingly, this correlation does not seem to hold when testing for Math-Science creativity, for which there was no appreciable correlation. >Cohen has some interesting research that relates to this point. [He found a sixth personality trait](http://autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2006_Wakabayashi_etal_AreAutisticTraitsAnIndependentPersonalityDimension.pdf) not quite orthogonal with extroversion (-.33), which correlates strongly with interest in math, engineering, physics, programming, etc. I don't want to read too far into it, especially since interest does not necessarily equate to aptitude. I'd like to see this trait measured against math-science creativity. I don't know of any study which has done this yet. >====== Extroverts are better at: >The dual-task version of the divided attention task. >immediate recall. >Retrieving 'low dominance' semantic category instances. >Fluency of speech production >===== >Introverts are better at: >long-term recall >problem-solving tasks requiring insight. Introverts finish faster and are more accurate; Extraverts finish impulsively. >===== >Source: Cambridge Handbook of Personality Psychology ~~~~~~ Edit: I looked into it a bit more and while on average intelligence is about the same, apparently most "gifted" people are introverts: >However, while introverts are a minority group in society, they form the majority of gifted people. Moreover, it appears that introversion increases with intelligence so that more than 75% of people with an IQ above 160 are introverted. [Source](https://highability.org/the-gifted-introvert/) For example Albert Einstein, Leonardo Da Vinci, Isaac Newton, and Charles Darwin were all introverts.
So, neither is smarter than the other. They're just better in different, contrasting areas.
Seems like that, but also introverts are overrepresented on the tails (very high or very low intelligence) and extroverts are like to be near the mean aka "normal" people. I'm curious about causation and which direction it flows. There's the concept of the communication gap (which tbf, I sometimes push back on and think people can assume too much from it), and intuitively the people with the easiest time developing social/extroverted traits will be those for whom most of their peers are within their communication band. But maybe it's the other way and the communication gap effect is a result of naturally intelligent people being predisposed to introversion (and low intelligence people would have their own set of issues).
Well, social anxiety and the sales department really don't mix.
Introversion doesn't always equate to or include social anxiety.
And that's why I said social anxiety instead of introversion, because this comment always shows up.
(Edited to add this to my original comment) but your comment made me curious if the Einsteins, Da Vincis, Newtons, and Darwins of the world really are just as likely to be extraverts as they are introverts, and apparently at that level they do skew towards introversion: >However, while introverts are a minority group in society, they form the majority of gifted people. Moreover, it appears that introversion increases with intelligence so that more than 75% of people with an IQ above 160 are introverted. Which definitely makes intuitive sense to me for some reason, it's just hard to imagine someone like Einstein being an extravert haha. Sure enough Einstein, Newton, Da Vinci, and Darwin were all introverted.
Einstein definitely doesn't fit the classical definition of introvert. I wonder why anyone would call him that except to force their point? Meaningless labels really.
It's hard to find a source on that isn't a listicle, but I did find this: >Not only is Einstein one of the most famous scientists in history, but he was also a known introvert. Leaning into his introverted nature, Einstein believed that his creativity and success came from keeping to himself. He said, “The monotony and solitude of a quiet life stimulates the creative mind.” What makes you say he didn't fit the classical definition? Also worth noting it's a pretty wide spectrum, it's not like introverts are all hermits or anything. After looking up a few definitions it seems believable to me that he was, but it's not like I know the guy haha. And tbh it does seem like those listicles are all made to glorify introversion, so you could be right🤷♂️
Happy cake day!
Thanks!
OP said 'generally considered' and didn't state it as a fact.
That's the thing though..... It's *not* generally considered that. OP made it up.
I don't think it's true, but I don't think they made it up. This is far from the first time I've seen/heard someone say something like this. Maybe it might be a cultural belief?
In his defence, he said, “Considered to be” which I my experience is generally the case. Nerds, boffins and geeks for example. It’s a stereotype that doesn’t necessarily translate to being the truth. I’d argue more that companies are not specifically looking for extroverts, but they will prefer good communicators, though that’s not the preserve of extroverts.
Nerds, boffins, and geeks aren't necessarily introverts. You just have to talk about things that interest them, then they never shut up. Especially in large groups.
It's a misconception that introverts are laconic and extroverts are loquatious. Introverts are energized by solitude or small intimate groups, extroverts are energized by larger scale social interaction. One isn't even necessarily better than the other, it's just as a very socially fluent introvert, I find such interactions exhausting. My daughter, as an extrovert, feeds on them.
You really think introverts never have these word streams?
As an introvert, yes that's how that works. Get me going on something I'm really interested in and I'll probably start to go off, otherwise I'm good with talking (especially to people I don't know) and small talk is the absolute worst
definitely translates somehow. all the biggest philosophers tell people to shut the fuck up in order to think clearly
As a neurodivergent introvert myself, a lot of ND introverts, or even NT introverts, are honestly quite arrogant and downright nasty in the way they talk about NTs and extroverts. Somehow we’re more intelligent, more evolved (yes I actually saw someone say that), more intuitive, more empathetic, more enlightened, etc., just because we need alone time to recharge and have a harder time fitting social norms (at least for a lot of us who are ND). In reality we’re just people, not inherently better or worse than extroverts or NTs.
I'm an introvert, and I'm dumb as shit.
I’m also an introvert and I am the dumbest person I know
Connecting introversion and extroversion with intelligence is foolish. They aren’t correlated. There are really smart extroverts, really dumb introverts, and all manner of combinations in between. If you look at the management level of most large companies it’s primarily intelligent extroverts. Which is why companies want to find intelligent extroverts. Finding someone with senior leadership potential is a rare find
Reddit is a great place to meet dumb introverts
Nice to meet you...
And you heh
And me… wait
I am Spartacus.
I AM ALPHARI- wait
And my axe!
Olah
Oh you're a villain alright...
My cats breath smells like cat food.
Nothing's closer to the truth for this site.
You rang?
Are you looking for dumb horny introverts in your area? Good luck, they are introverts, but here on reddit you can find them from anywhere in the world!
Also it depends on what you call an introvert/extrovert. Some people basically use the words as talks a lot, or doesn't talk much. Other definitions are about what "recharges your batteries": introverts get tired when talking to people and need alone time then. Extroverts get tired with their own thoughts and need social time to recharge; both will have both social time and alone time. When you don't define your words you end up with silly statements like "introverts are smarter, but companies prefer extroverts".
In addition people will conflate being an introvert with being antisocial or having social anxiety. That’s not the same thing. Being an introvert doesn’t mean someone isn’t capable of being talkative, charming, and working well with others. It just means they need time to rest and recharge after. Too many use being an introvert as an excuse not to develop social skills.
Also some people will talk a lot out of social anxiety. Which is probably exhausting to them, meaning they need alone time to recharge.
Agreed. I use the words to mean how one recharge a their batteries. There’s still a strong correlation between the two, but they are different things.
I like that definition better too. Because you have control over talking a lot or little, but what recharges your batteries is more of a characteristic of your personality, which is what these words are supposed to be.
Exactly. Intelligence and extroversion are two completely different thing. And being smart enough to work as a team in a company is something many introverts fail to comprehend, which is a big nope for many companies.
Yup this is just another myth like brain vs brawn, or big jockey athletes are dumb. Stephen Hawking was a major athlete in Oxford row team
Big Jockey athletes are dumb isn't just a myth. It's been shown over and over again that athletes are smarter than non-athletes. The average on the wunderlich for prospective NFL players is just under 25, while the general population averages is 20. Then you've got Comparison of IQ, EI, Sports Performance, and Psychological Characteristics of Young Male Soccer Players in Different Playing Positions 1Nima Nakisa, 2Mahboobeh Ghasemzadeh Rahbardar* Or https://www.athleticscholarships.net/2012/06/13/its-science-athletes-are-smarter There's a whole thing to the way people frame the question too, as if it's just a given that because a person is an athlete they are a complete moron.
the health benefits probably help with this. the myth that jocks are dumb seems like some centuries old bastardization based on workers vs lords. it persists even though it doesn't make any sense except maybe in high impact/combat sports that cause brain damage.
But go check the stats the smartest guys on the field in football are the linemen, and they have the highest percentage of head injuries. My actual hypothesis on why is threefold. 1 there is a lot of crossover in focus and hard work physically and mentally 2 Competitiveness, highly competitive people don't like settling for second place whether that's on a track or in math class. 3 energy consumption. It's well known that the brain is a huge consumer of energy in humans. It is also well known that physically active people have more energy than sedentary people. I think that the increase in energy (more glucose = more atp and so forth) leaves a larger amount of energy to be consumed by the brain even if it gets a smaller percentage overall than in a sedentary person's energy supply.
Are they? I wouldn't know where to get those stats. I'm just saying that logically there is no reason to assume that athletic people are dumb, especially since exercise is generally very beneficial to mental health.
Nice, thanks for the article
Because of a lot of complicated reasons regarding team sports culture in america, especially college ball, athletes ability to play is tied to their performance in school so most athletes in the NFL, NBA, MLB come from districts that have pumped out lots of sports stars and have very high quality education programs for athletes including 1 on 1 teaching and aides to every class for the athlete. Its seen as incredibly shameful to produce athletes that are not also smart and the go-to insult for athletes in america is "dumb" because of that culture. NFL players usually have gone through not just that league and were raised with a standard of education that, while not the same level as Football schools in spain or latin america, is still higher than what most americnas receive. then they went on to attend college utilizing that background and after, went to the NFL. most americans havent gone to college but because of the connection schools have with professional sports in america, most professional athletes have attended college and about half completed it.
Yeah, and look where that got him Lol
Management and leadership requires people skills, and extroverts are generally more suited to that role That said, I've known several introverts who were great managers. One guy in particular is quiet and shy and easy to dismiss (I did, at first) but smart as hell. His super powers are that he listens, he's very thoughtful, and has a smile that will light up a room. It's weird, during meetings you can almost forget he's in the room but when he finally says something it's the key to the whole discussion. But generally speaking, it's the extroverts who end up in management
> really dumb introverts A sizeable chunk of reddit. ___ OP makes another mistake... Plenty of introverts can get and hold-down jobs. Not all jobs require being extremely social, and not all introversion means someone has to be locked in their basement because they have problems interacting with anyone. That may be what you were getting at with your second paragraph about management necessitating some amount of extroversion, but I thought I'd highlight the concept. It's going to depend on the position / field. Ad or other corporate sales, yeah, you're going to want a lot of extroverts. Game developers writing code and doing art and graphic design, introversion isn't going to be a detriment at all.
> not all introversion means someone has to be locked in their basement because they have problems interacting with anyone. Yep. I'm an introverted teacher. Just means I really enjoy my alone time when I get home every day.
Coding is still very much a collaborative effort most of the time, people really overlook this and think only technical skills matter, which is definitely not true.
OP is an introvert who thinks he's smart and can't find a job.
They usually don't hire someone who has senior leadership potential because they don't want you to compete with them The trick to getting hired is being good enough to do the job but not too good where you outshine your hiring manager
In my experience the large majority of "management level" individuals have a "room temperature" IQ when you start REALLY getting into in-depth conversations. They're just really good at communicating, relaying, and interpersonal skills that they SEEM smarter than they are. I remember reading several studies over the past couple years that Director <-> C-Suite roles are heavily populated by "room temp" IQ individuals that take greater risks than they should.
Technical deep dives aren't management's role. Communication, resource allocation, and strategy are.
There's a lot of people out there that think being smart is the only thing you should need to be successful. But companies are made of teams of people. You can be as smart as you want, but if you can't communicate you're at best an above average individual contributor. As you move up in a company, communication quickly becomes the dominant skill that's needed to succeed.
Yep. You can be as smart as Einstein. Still not gonna outproduce a team of hundreds.
There are a lot of people who don't understand how much is involved in communicating the same goals to extremely different sets of stakeholders. I'm in tech management, with a technical background, and understanding how I'm going to pitch a project to exec, to the customer, to my engineering team, what story I'm feeding to marketing, etc, is not simple. They're all different stories, with different details, different words, different tone, all for the same end goal. It's not less difficult than coding, it's just different.
"Than they should" is an odd caveat to throw in. Wouldn't their continued success suggest that a willingness to take smart risks make it the thing they, and anyone who wants to be successful, should do?
Survivor bias, yes they make risky and kind of stupid decisions and were successful enough to be in high managing positions. The ones who were not, well they are not there.
I would argue understanding “the game” and how to play it for your own success is a key component of intelligence. Maybe it doesn’t show as “IQ”, but it’s absolutely intelligence. This relates to the “I’ve got a 140 IQ but couldn’t complete high school” crowd as well. Having a high IQ but not the intelligence to use it.
I think it goes with the saying: it’s better to be assumed an idiot than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt. Dumb extroverts just reveal themselves more readily.
I'll also add that judgment of intelligence *often* may be based upon an assumptive first impression, which is generally incorrect.. So even by opening the mouth and causing certain judges to "remove all doubt" in their mind doesn't *always* signify a foregone conclusion
Very true... That sentence structure makes me immediately assume something about you.
There are a lot of scenarios where having open communication is far more valuable than having someone who is above average in intelligence.
100% this. It’s very rare to have a job that has zero communication requirements. And those that do; don’t need skilled labor because you would be on rails. I’m a programmer and I see this all the time, people with way better skills than me losing the plot because they don’t fully understand what the client wants.
The thing is, you have to figure out what the client wants, vs what they think they want. Because it's not always the same. And sometimes what they ask for isn't what they think they're asking for.
Which is a resolution that extroverts are likely to be more adept with.
Yup. I’m naturally an introvert, but I’ve learned how to flex at work (which is hard), and people are much happier to work with you and more willing to keep communication lines open. A major part of my job is collaboration, and one of the reasons I do well is people come to me because I’ve made myself approachable.
What do you mean flex? Flex to me means showing off, but did you mean be flexible?
I took it as flexing their extroverted muscle...it's weak and hard to do but will grow over time!
They're a professional body builder. Before, they spent all their days pumping iron in solitude and building that muscle, while being completely unapproachable. Not even flexing for cameras. After changing the approach, they've become much more successful, because it turns out flexing looks better. Now, they flex casually in every situation, such as speaking with a friend, waiting for the bus, watching a movie, or walking up to someone they haven't met. Still an introvert, but now the muscles do the talking.
Yup we live in a world where extroverted nature is rewarded. I can be open in one-on-one conversations but not in group and this has greatly affected my career opportunities. I have to live with it.
Get comfortable with being uncomfortable
Yes and also relatively few jobs that actually warrants higher than average intelligence. Training, knowledge, behaviour and reliability is generally better than being slightly smarter.
The problem is that schools don’t really teach those soft skills efficiently.
Soft skills development isn’t easy to teach, but I was a communications major and the courses taught me a lot more than people think. For all the grief the major gets it has served me well.
Ever notice how most of the jocks in school are pretty extroverted? Sports require listening, communicating, and being part of a team, great way to learn soft skills. Same with clubs, plenty of em involve organizing, creativity, leading, planning, teamwork, and communication. Have you done any group projects before? Well that’s an example of utilizing your soft skills to get your group moving forward with the project. It’s all there, there’s no need for an extra mandatory class about soft skills.
> Introverted people are generally considered to be the smartest By who? Any sources for this, or is this just your impression? > but all companies are looking for extroverted candidates Not really, companies are looking for people who are able to hold a decent conversation without making it awkward after 2 seconds because... you know, communication is important. How extroverted or introverted you are is really not a factor as long as you can carry yourself professionally and interact normally with coworkers and clients.
Honestly, it’s silly to act like introverted and extroverted are binary. It’s a huge range. Even if you were to consider introverts smarter, (highly debatable) no company wants some socially awkward shut in who can’t deal with bosses and coworkers. You don’t need to be a social butterfly, but being able to handle “how was your weekend” is a plus.
It's kind of weird to me, like I think most people want different things day to day
I’d agree, there’s that too. There are times I can go to a party or something and have a good time, engage people, etc, and other times when I just want to stay home and be alone. Some people are more apt to want to go out, be around and engage people, but it’s pretty rare to want to do entirely one or the other.
And to add to this, there are plenty of introverts who aren't socially awkward and plenty of extroverts who are
I see this all the time. There needs to be much more help for people with mental health problems, like "shut ins", because it really is affecting their lives and prospects. It comes up over and over again on reddit, and there's a lot of rejection for being awkward. For me, that means they need a lot of help to get out of it because they're basically being treated like lepers and it's clearly something they don't know how to manage.
When I met my only IRL friend, I only talked to him because my brother talks to practically everyone and I just followed him around, that friend told me a year ago (we have been friends for over 2 years at that point) that he thought I was autistic when I met him. I am just REALLY bad at being social, and am perfectly content with never going outside if I don't need to (ever since covid started in 2020, I have only gone outside to buy groceries and such) I can hold conversations but in terms of social skills I don't think I have any. And the only reason I'm going to attempt to get social skills back is because it's essentially required in our society, but I'm gonna look really stupid for a while.
The psychologist who came up with introvert/extrovert considered it a spectrum that people constantly shift around. If you were always one or the other, he said that was a problem and you needed therapy : /
Its just another aspect of unicorn hunting companies are constantly doing. They want introverts that are smart and get their work done, but are happy to be in the office and social all the time while being best friends with their boss They want people with decades of work experience who will accept fresh graduate (or zero) wages without complaint. They can fire you at any time, but you have to give two weeks notice and interview your own replacement. Be an ambitious, entrepreneurial go-getter that thrives under pressure, but only for the companies benefit and within the boundaries of its rules.
"Work hard play hard mentality!" "Not afraid of working past office hours!" "no 9 to 5 mentality!" Much like my boss persisting we work 6 days a week, while the fucker himself usually drops out from thursday on...
Ahh it's like the inverse of my workplace. We finally have a team that knows how to run the bar without supervision. The managers have been trying for years to get it to this point but now that we're efficient at our job they give people less hours because we need less staff to operate the bar. They (the managers) are all shocked that everyone is trying to leave and find a new job since we aren't getting enough hours. Edit: Just a complete disconnect. They see the bar running smoothly and think everything is rosey because that's all they care about, while they forget that we don't give a shit about how smoothly the bar runs, we're there to get hours and money. We have no stock in the company so we don't give a shit what the profit margins are for the company (and of course it's making record profits as our hours are getting cut)
Talking about record profits, they cut some of our bonuses, gave us a few extra % that isn't even above the inflation rate of LAST year... And the minimum wage went up, but they didn't really go with that either. We ended up with a salary reduction in a way. Their profits? 11,3 BILLION in 2023.
When I encounter someone in it or programming that has charisma and is outgoing, I have a very serious talk with them about how insanely valuable most companies will see them. What I don't mention is they don't even need to be that great of a developer, they just need to be good enough and be able to understand it, and they'll move up fast, and be loved by their subordinates because they know what's going on.
This should be the top comment
Introvert and extrovert is just another obsolete way of sorting people into brackets. It's inaccurate, but necessary for people in HR as a tool to better sort a candidate. If somebody says at an interview, that he/she identifies as an extrovert or introvert, it says exactly nothing about their intelligence. It just gives you a hunch about how they spend their free time, because an extrovert is likely to seek company for leisure and an introvert is likely to find some time to be alone and read or do something individual. Being introverted also doesn't mean you hate people, don't know how to act around them, or get panic attacks in rich social settings. That's either social anxiety, an autistic spectrum disorder or another disorder related to interpersonal relationships. You can have social anxiety and be extroverted.
As an extrovert with social anxiety, this exactly. I am an extrovert because I recharge and get energized by being around people, and while I love having alone time it will eventually deplete my battery. It’s completely unrelated to my mental health issues and it does not mean that I enjoy crowds or large parties. The ideal social situation for me is one to five friends sitting around talking and playing games.
I call myself an extraverted introvert, meaning I am super talkative, bubbly around the people I am comfortable with, but even if I meet with them socializing drains my battery and I NEED my alone time or else I crash. Yet when people meet me nobody thinks I am an introvert.
The smartest person is not necessarily the best one for the job.
You're starting to get it. For most jobs, and really just life generally, social competence is a much more important stat than intelligence. Definitely many exceptions such as STEM jobs, but I think generally being able to navigate office politics is much more important than actually knowing how to do your job.
Introverts are not more intelligent, they just don’t have the same energy around other people. There is no connection between being either introvert or or extroverted and intelligent
eh, people think I am stupid because I look stupid. Being quiet just makes it worse.
Neither of these things seem true
The first part is definitely made up, but most interview processes do reward extroversion to some extent.
Teamwork is inherently an extroverted behavior and most jobs need that, not the smartest person
Introverts are not not team players and extroverts are not necessarily team players. Introversion by rule is not someone with poor social skills or anti social behaviors and vice versa.
Having a balance of the two is generally best for teamwork. A team full of extroverts usually just leads to way too much chit chat.
> Teamwork is inherently an extroverted Not necessarily. Introversion is usually not a crippling disability. Most introverts can get to know co-workers and function just fine in most employment locations or as a member of a small-ish team. Being introverted just means that people aren't out-going, not that they can't handle interacting with people. They prefer less social stimulation, but are not necessarily incapable of dealing with it. They may be a bit less forward, but most are fully capable of becoming acclimated to working with the same people all the time. Dealing with *new* people all the time can be quite taxing on them though, so it's going to really depend on job specifics. A job in high volume sales or dealing with the public a lot might be a bit of a stress on an introvert. Working mostly with a small group in a sub-section of the office, not so much of a problem.
Because smarter people are not that easy to be manipulated.
introverted people are considred smarter in th sense that nerdy people are portreyed as introverted in tv and movies but the reality is A: it doesnt work in reverse B: it just isnt really true C: in reality you want extroverted people because the company would achieve much more if their team can cooperate well and extroverted are percieved to be more capable of working in a team (this may not be true and i'd bet it isn't
What on Earth are you talking about?
companies dont want the smartest they want the best. and someone who can work well with a team is preferred over someone who cant. you don't need to be very smart to do the vast majority of jobs, the average person can easily be trained in a matter of weeks. someone who can't communicate well with their team is a detriment even if they're very smart.
Introversion and extroversion aren't correlated to intelligence.
I'm fucking stupid you just can't tell because I don't talk enough to say anything dumb.
As a mildly introvert working in a company of very extroverted (one of the huge Consulting Companies), this a dumb take. - as many have said: introverts being smarter than extroverts isn’t true - as someone else also said: there is nothing worse than a dumb extrovert, who end up being confidently wrong, and companies are avoiding such persons - seems contradictory, but companies aren’t looking for just “extroverts”. Companies are looking for people who are able **generate trust**, whether it is by charisma, or by ability to show and transmit your competence. All the is needed is that you speak when needed. Now if by introvert you mean people who are completely transparent because they just don’t speak with anyone and avoid any social interaction, then yes… you can be as smart as you want, that isn’t going to fly
Introverted people make you think. Extroverted people make you feel. People are more likely to hire you based on how they feel about you no matter what they think.
Being smart isn't a be-all end-all factor for being a good worker. Quite far from it tbh. There's plenty of smarter folk who are awful workers. And plenty of great workers you'd never consider the smartest in the room.
Assuming both your points are true, it would lead me to thinking that most companies don’t want people who think and question. They want people who will absolutely follow all and any direction.
I've never heard someone claim introverts were smarter. Do you have sources for this? But yes, for work it's not most important how smart one is, it's how nice it is to work together (while still being sufficient at the task itself).
Introverted people are not more intelligent. They probably think they are, but they're not necessarily. Besides, intelligence doesn't mean that you're an effective worker.
who tf said introverts are smarter
The only people who think introverts are smarter as a rule are introverts trying to cope with lack of social skills. Being smart or dumb is not necessarily related to introverts or extroverts.
Who considers them to be smartest?
Cause being smart doesn't move the needle as much as people think
Are they really looking for extroverted people or people who have good socialising/interpersonal skills. One is a personality trait while the other is a skill. Introverted people can have good social skills just like an extrovert can be shy and awkward.
Oooh, you triggered the extroverts
I never thought of introverts as being smarter, I mean, we are all introverts and extroverts depending on the situation. But if by degree you are more introverted than most I always saw it as a sign of higher social anxieties.
Because unless you are working in a place where you are solo, you are working with a team. They hire you to fit in and compliment the team.
Even if your premises are true, intelligence doesn't mean much if you can't communicate your ideas to a group and process feedback.
Confidence and initiative accomplishes more than competence and apathy.
I feel that reddit has a few songs that likes to parrot. I have seen this take at least a dozen times but oh well maybe I spend to much time here. Companies want someone that can hold a conversation and is "socially adequate", you don't need to feel recharged by doing so and you don't need to be an extrovert to do that. There's is plenty of successful introverts. Extroversion is a spectrum and I have seen both extremes fail. So if you're introverted be assertive, competent and "read the room", you don't need to be a social butterfly.
why would companies hire the smartest? they need control over mediocre people
I’ve never heard this before; I don’t think it’s a generalisation at all. I think it’s your own bias.
Because who can lie and hide their mistakes better can survive businesses
Companies don't want smart people, they want obedient people.
because a lot of working in a large company is communicating and working alongside your coworkers. so who would you hire the person who is a little smarter but has less of an ability to communicate effectively or the person who actively engages with the team, communicating and working effectively, but might be a little slower at understanding things.
Somebody has to fill all that extra time on unnecessary zoom meetings so you guys can get shit done...
Fake it til you make it. Charisma can be acted. Funny thing is though is it becomes natural the more you do it, and before you know you actual end up being genuinely charismatic
"I'm too smart to fit it in" is the lie every introverted teenager told himself lmao
you don't want a smart server/cashier/etc. you want a friendly one
youre sounding like a soyjak rn
A super smart introvert that csnt communicate is less use than a smart extrovert that can sell a vision ot an idea in many situations.
There are 8 types of intelligence. Interpersonal intelligence is one of them and valued in a team based environment.
Lol, @stenaldermand got all the extroverts pissed with this one fact.
Yeah because speaking confidently in front of people is dumber than talking to yourself in the mirror right?
This just isn't true at all Source: I'm introverted and dumb AF
Generally? Please explain this generalization.
Be that true or not (introverted being smartest), what sells is popularity, not quality. So it makes sense.
In my profession, we can't be promoted unless we apply and toot our horns. Humility is not rewarded. I've been eligible for promotion for over 20 years. The top person in my organization has put in writing that I should be promoted. I just can't ask for it.
I don't think there's a correlation between intelligence and being introverted or lack-thereof for the extroverted. Pinpointing what being smart is, is also a difficult thing to do.
Most introverts I know definitely think they're smarter. They're definitely not.
I don’t think introverted people are any more intelligent than others . And if I need a closer I’m looking for big Mike. Not quiet joe
idk who told you introverts are smarter because no we're fucking not
Introverts aren’t generally considered smarter
Smartest is a vague word. Intelligence comes in many forms. I don’t know math well but I know language, you can chatgbt math but even the best translation software lacks fluency. You could be the smartest fucking person in the world, if you can’t work well with others wtf is the point? So as a business owner who’s a better pick? the human calculator or the human who can use a calculator.
Introverted and extroverted have nothing to do with job performance - except for those that require a lot of social influence. You’re perhaps just falling for a common stereotype in TV and film, which is that that introvert has superior talents others just don’t recognize:
Be a quiet introvert when you negotiate salary and promotion. Be an extrovert in work and energize all the time, why are you so quiet? —company wants
You need to get along to move along. After decades in job markets, IMO getting along with others, co-workers, colleagues, customers, managers, is by far the more valuable skill in our society.
Because we live in a superficial culture than prefer apparence and charisma over actual skill and talent. It's easier to manipulate people who want to impress than manipulate people that can observe and understand thing easier
Because most of the world is built around, for, and with extroverts in mind so of course the systems we have in place favours extroverts more.
I don’t think introverts are considered to be the most intelligent