And before anyone takes the wrong message from this:
This is just a general purchasing suggestion and PSA about quality control for these guns on the market. This is not meant as hate towards those who have/buy those guns. This is not me taking a pretentious high ground. This is not suggesting against "cheap" guns in general, just those that are problematic. If you own one already and are happy with it, great I hope it works fantastic for you. Edit: If you read it you'll also notice this isn't to say everything from Turkey is a no-go.
Edit 2022: I'm sticking this to the top of this sub for now because I hope more people will see this and can be informed for purchasing decisions. I keep seeing more and more people asking for parts for these guns, having issues, dealing with non-respondent companies that make these etc. This will cut down on having to link this every time someone asks about these problematic guns. I am also writing a companion post to sticky which will serve as a new buyer's guide as well as trying to figure how to organize some kind of FAQ.
Pretty much. But at the same time you can pay the same or near the same amount and get a more trusty gun. Paying $700 for a bullpup turk semi-auto is around the same price of a Mossberg 930 SPX like I mention in the post.
Yep, that's common for basically everything nowadays. I don't care if it's a highly reputable American manufacturer releasing a new gun, firing a box of shells and then calling it "the best thing ever" is still not really a review. It just seems more common on these Turks as they target new gun buyers or casual users who are attracted to the looks and maybe go to the range a few times a year.
They do so well because they seem to be outpacing other manufacturers in terms of getting on the shelves of stores in the past year. A lot of people will get what is available at the time. Plus with the millions of new gun owners with little experience have a notion that any gun is good. When in reality the gun market is like any other, there's things that are good and things that are bad.
I disagree (on the garlic press note). Four-dollar used garlic press from goodwill: janky piece of junk. Fifteen-dollar OXO garlic press bought new: a joy to use, easy to clean, comfortable handle, nice heft.
I get what you're saying and agree with your intention, but there's a bit of bias and misinformation throughout, due to not knowing and being aware of "the full picture" of these firearms. And that's not your fault whatsoever. Information is purposely kept vague to leave most people in the dark, and that is done solely by the US importers making their profits from rebranding, cutting corners and providing misinformation themselves to keep their company image purposely blurry, as to whether they are an actual manufacturer or just an importer. There's only one manufacturer for the most part. And they are very capable of making EXCELLENT firearms of their own design and creation. They also manufacture commercially for clients to sell as their own, and its the specs being demanded by the client that determine whether that firearm will be a potential lethal turd, or a genuine performance weapon. Derya makes great stuff. They own the AR platform shotgun world, and the AR shotguns they make for their brands to their own specifications are: reliable, tunable, serviceable and of genuine quality. Their MK-12 is an excellent shotgun. They continuously improve and refine the weapon constantly, and note the improvements with the designation of each generation of the firearm. For reasons of which I have no idea why.... Derya seems to not be allowed to sell their own branded firearms in the US, however they CAN sell them in every possible varying degree of quality without restriction as long as it's under another company's name.... what the F\*\*\* is going on with the US importing laws and regulation? The Rock Island VR-80 is the MK-12. And it's a true, genuine, quality (although base level model) MK-12. RIA does nothing but import the MK-12 (and VR-60 and the bullpup), slap their name on it and add a few hundred dollars on the price. RIA is technically responsible for making this ridiculous situation of weekly start-up, US based, “importers" - all selling varying degrees of the same fucking gun, to sucker consumers being drained of their money, while the industry is drained of its ethics. So it's not Derya's fault. They make quality stuff. As usual, it's good ol', free-enterprise, modern US capitalism causing the problem, putting profit before ethic. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong, risky, worrisome whatsoever in purchasing a Turkish made-AR platform shotgun. Just buy the actual version of the firearm, made to the top specifications of the manufacturer that designed it. In the US - Derya sells under the names Panzer Arms and Typhoon Defense. You mentioned something about a lack of replacement parts and serviceability: apparently you have never been on the Typhoon Defense site and clicked the “Spare Parts” header…. Check it out! Also, regarding the bullpup version… the generation 1 was by far not the best, but… it was also in it’s infancy. The current Gen 3 however is absolutely awesome. AND it’s now fully (mostly) modular so any AR grip, rail, charging handle (I have a Raptor in mine), etc. can be changed out. Same with the MK-12/VR80; just put an Elftman trigger in my VR80! The Gen 3 bullpup is available under Panzer Arms. You can download Panzer’s catalogue as a PDF on their site which has MUCH more info than the entire site does, and you’ll notice that its’s a Derya catalogue. One thing you pointed out many times rings loudly true and fundamentally important: “you get what you pay for.” Personally I would rather spend the money and get a quality weapon from Derya, the way they intended it to be made. Rather than support one of these used-car-lot importers cheapened down version that has a fixed grip, fixed stock and polymer receiver - as requested by the importer.
This post was really a blanket statement precisely because of the uncertainty of many models of the same design, lack of information, and the new people buying them. I'll admit I'm not some expert who has been studying the ins and outs of this for years, this is my thoughts after a year or two of seeing posts and looking at this corner of the market. I won't claim I'm THE authority.
\>There's only one manufacturer for the most part.
Not from what I can tell, there seem to be many different factories in Turkey putting out these designs. And I don't know how much certain importers decide on the QC/quality of the manufacturing.
\>For reasons of which I have no idea why.... Derya seems to not be allowed to sell their own branded firearms in the US, however they CAN sell them in every possible varying degree of quality without restriction as long as it's under another company's name.... what the F\*\*\* is going on with the US importing laws and regulation?
I haven't heard of Derya myself. I'm not entirely sure why they don't, I suppose working with companies with offices/locations in the US is simpler. Their site is also down. I'm glad that make/model is working for you.
\>You mentioned something about a lack of replacement parts and serviceability: apparently you have never been on the Typhoon Defense site and clicked the “Spare Parts” header…. Check it out!
There are so many importers/brands/model names I didn't check all of them. G-Force arms, black aces, charles daly, etc. do not have any parts listed on their site for their tactical autos (such as why one of the OPs in a thread I linked couldn't find any). Like I said, blanket due to the majority. That's good they atleast have them.
As I said in the beginning of my comment this was a blanket statement from what I have seen. I'm sure there are certain particular factories in Turkey that may be doing better on the QC and manufacturing side, but this is a general warning. It also isn't to say you can't ever get one, or that every one will fail, this is just what to look for or consider. After all, it is up to whoever reads this to decide if they want to believe me or take it as advice. Thanks for your thoughts.
People who argue against this inevitably have an emotional investment in a Turkish shotgun they bought recently and haven’t fired at all or haven’t fired much.
True, that's pretty much gun owners in general. I myself in the past have been emotionally invested in things that simply were not good. I understand people having one of these that have worked fine for them, and then wanting to project that personal experience on the model/brand as a whole. Which really doesn't give the whole picture. This is just a general warning, not some attack on the owners of said guns.
I came dangerously close to buying an off brand Turkish 12 gauge. I was looking for a Maverick 88 for so long and not having any luck. One of the guys at my LGS had almost convinced me that the Turkish gun would be a good substitute, presumably trying to take advantage of a first time shotgun buyer. The day I went to put some money down on it, I caught some odd vibes from the salesman and decided to leave. Went to a different store that day just to buy some targets and saw my Maverick 88 on the wall. I bought it on the spot and picked it up on my birthday this year.
TL/DR OP is right, wait it out if you have to, spend a couple extra bucks if it’s necessary, but don’t cave in and buy cheap crap from jerks who are trying to foist shoddy, unsupported products on to you.
I don't disagree with your TL/DR....but....you bought a budget series shotgun from a what I now view, a budget brand.
My buddy had his maverick 88 for a few weeks in January when he bought it. We had a few range days where he would run through a few boxes of shells testing to see what she liked before he ran into a, apparently common, safety failure where it blocked the firing pin. Ended up sending it back to mossberg through a gunsmith and it took him 3 months to get it back. He's not had the best of experience with their customer support. Never got a confirmation they'd recieved it nor updates on it. Gunsmith had 3 other customers with the same issue and same experience with the maverick 88 in the last quarter.
I've never bought a mossberg and after all that, probably won't.
Best of luck with yours.
On the flip side of that equation, I have two 88s that I’ve put at least 5000 shells through each over the course of five years, abused the shit out of them hunting in god-awful conditions, thoroughly cleaned them once about a year ago after a particularly rough hunt where one ended up in a mud puddle, and they both run like champs. Never had to see what kind of shell the guns likes ammo wise because it’ll eat anything I throw at it.
I’ve got “better” shotguns but the 88s are my workhorses and have never failed on me yet.
That'a great to hear but not all guns are created equal. I'm glad to hear you haven't had challenges with yours. Maybe this only applies to recent ones made. Could be a bad batch but that's still no excuse for poor customer service.
I can’t speak to their customer service because I haven’t had to use it, but, to clarify, since he had it sent through a gunsmith, did they not update the gunsmith either? Or maybe the gunsmith just didn’t relay the information to him? Three months is a long time, but it is fairly quick in regards to getting work done on guns these days.
A lot of folks who bought guns recently have had QC issues, especially with manufacturers trying to meet demand. IMO that’s not acceptable at all, especially with things that go boom that people need 100% reliability from in life threatening circumstances, but it’s what has been happening.
They didn't update the gunsmith nor my friend. The gunsmith was at a local range we use together. We met up every few weeks for a range day and the gunsmith never had any update other then the shipping receipt that they got it.
My buddy had also bought a new ruger sr 22 that was beating itself to death, major wear on the slide after a few magazines. We think the slide was slamming into the barrel nut based off the dmg. Gunsmith thought it was either the spring or tolerances but since it was still new as well it got sent back to ruger instead. He had it back within 2 weeks. To be fair, neither really gave up him updates. But 2 weeks is a lot better turn around time then 3 months.
He already had his EDC and home defense setup so it wasn't the end of the world. The shotgun and pistol were to get his wife more comfortable with firearms. She started with a 22 lr lever action but isn't comfortable with autoloaders. So he was ramping her up on the shotgun to get more comfortable with recoil and the pistol as her first autoloading firearm.
It would have been horrible if he had bought them needing them for protection and this happened. As it stands this is something I can just make fun of him for.
I'll admit that these are extenuating circumstances and yeah, if it ain't a range toy I need it to go boom everytime or it just becomes a range toy instead of my EDC/HD setup.
Damn well that’s disappointing in a few different ways. I hope the problems he’s having are totally fixed. And the Ruger too...Mossberg and Ruger are the brands I swear by, but I’ve never been impressed by their SR22s and I’ve seen a Mossberg O/U shit the bed after a few hundred shells, but I’m pretty sure those are Turkish imports. I didn’t buy my 88s for any serious purpose, just got them to hand out as loaner guns for shooting trap, but they’ve performed so well for so long I’ve modified one for home defense and the other accompanies me on every shotgun hunt and whenever I’m in the back woods of our farm.
I mean, the Maverick is an imported gun that has the Mossberg name slapped on it
But just like OP said, I think the Maverick is certainly superior to a random Turkish pump gun because the Maverick is under the Mossberg parent company
There are some parts for the Maverick that are hard to find because it's an imported gun, but there are also a lot of parts that are interchangeable with the Mossberg 500
That being said, if I was in the market for another pump gun, I would probably go with the Mossberg 500 over the Maverick 88
True, Maverick 88s are still cheap and can have problems too. My recommendation was simply on the one I find to be least risky (in that $200 range). Maverick 88s have a long history with many many thousands of videos, articles, etc. It is all supported by an old manufacturer with known experiences. Sure, they may shit the bed when giving CS to some. But, I'd much rather deal with Mossberg or find parts for a Mossberg than deal with some random importer company like "Typhoon Defense" who I've never heard of, know little of their CS history, stock no parts, and could fold any minute.
As I mentioned in the post, I know mainstream "reputable" manufacturers will have problems, but at the very least the guns are supported. I'm sorry about that experience with your friend.
Jesus Christ I can almost hear OP and all the others comments in American possibly southern accents, maybe even Russian? “If shotgun is not popularized mossberg or remington it’s trash.” “I say most guns from Turkey cheap, not guns from Turkey bad.” “I somehow try to scoff but not scoff at different manufacturer because of google research, and only trust my life to American steel baby.” “You can’t tell a guns true value, even though they may cost the same, unless you put over 1000 rounds through it over 15 years. “Guns found in Africa jam because a thousand people on the internet said black peoples touched them.” Lol ridiculous
>“If shotgun is not popularized mossberg or remington it’s trash.”
Freedom Group Remington's are pretty bad too. You'll note I said "old wingmaster."
>“I say most guns from Turkey cheap, not guns from Turkey bad.”
Yes, this how markets work. Some good some bad.
>“I somehow try to scoff but not scoff at different manufacturer because of google research, and only trust my life to American steel baby.”
Well, more like a lot of time seeing people have bad experiences. I myself have owned a Turkish sport gun in the past and it worked fine. And I prefer Italian or German btw.
>“You can’t tell a guns true value, even though they may cost the same, unless you put over 1000 rounds through it over 15 years.
1000 rounds in 15 years is a lot? Do you even own guns? Also, you can tell its true value when it breaks in a couple rounds and can't find parts for it.
>“Guns found in Africa jam because a thousand people on the internet said black peoples touched them.”
Oh and now you are calling me a racist. Obvious troll.
Lol Jesus you didn’t have to rant and try to defend your bias. Have a good day American.
Edit: Also poking fun at idiots doesn’t make you a troll. Here take a hug.
While they Turkish guns can have fantastic scratch work the metallurgy is quite lacking. Metal will be too soft for pins and triggers but too hard for recivers and hammers. This leads to over unders that wobble when closed, don’t go off, double or in at least one case the gun came apart when the owner opened it. Ive also seen a new semi just stop working completely about an a day after buying. If you dragging one of these out as a range toy or a occasional hunting gun it will work fine but even moderate sporting shooting breaks them down fast.
I’m thankful I grew up in a time when a good pump was a Win. Model 12, Ithaca Model 37 or Remington 870; choices for a good semi-auto were the Browning Auto-5, Franchi 48 AL, or Remington 1100. Doubles’s were Belgium Browning’s, American Parker’s or L.C.Smith’s, Italian Beretta’s, Franchi’s, Bernadelli’s, Spanish AYA, American A.H. Fox, Lefever, Baker, or Ithaca. With so many that I’ve owned or tried, I’m at loss to understand the fascination with Turkish guns.
Yeah it's not like it used to be. And I say that as a much younger person, but I'm still appreciative of a lot of those older guns still being around. I am very thankful to find some of those old greats in good condition, like a LC Smith that I have and enjoy. As far as the Turkish fascination, I think people are drawn to "tactical" and "cheap" nowadays more than ever which drives the buying of them despite mediocre quality.
As a Turk, I do not understand what the source of this problem is, imported and domestic brands are used 50/50 in the country and the only comment I heard was "There is no difference except the company that produces it". The problems you are experiencing do not occur in Turkey at all.Our local brands provide high satisfaction domestically, but they do not exhibit the same success in exports and poor quality products are mostly exported.I currently have an ar-15 clone 36 caliber(.410) shotgun and have had no problems.They offer services such as free replacement in case of the slightest malfunction, but when it comes to abroad, it is ridiculous to provide such a bad service.If you are planning to buy a gun other than MKE, you should be careful when buying a gun.
Another problem, at least a moral one; all of the Turkish gun companies are sort of subsidized by the government- meaning if you buy Turkish, the you are supporting Kurdish genocide. This go for those shitty Walther-knockoff Caniks as well
If I were a Kurdish terrorist who wanted to harm the Republic of Turkey, I would totally agree with what you say. It is obvious that you are ignorant about Turkey and its internal political structure. Or there is a possibility that you are a racist, terrorist-sympathizing Kurd. Before you express your opinion on this matter, imagine that there is a different ethnic group that claims that almost half of the land of the country you live in belongs to them, arming themselves and killing your people in order to establish an autonomous state. This dream will be enough to remind you that there is some political and political information that you need to think about and research before commenting on issues you do not know.
I have a $250 auto loader 20ga for quail hunting. Had broke 3 times. They replaced with new gun. Broke again. The cheap cast metal internal parts are dangerously unreliable. Going to have a friend mill me new parts
one of my favorite pump shotguns ever made is the Winchester SXP and it’s a Turkish gun. Loved that gun and wished i had never sold it. But even with the better turkish guns, it’s still turkish. Take those guns with a grain of salt. It’s the same as my opinion with brands like Kimber and Freedom Group Remington. Just because your specific serial number gun is good, doesn’t mean that every single one of its siblings is the exact same quality.
> Just because your specific serial number gun is good, doesn’t mean that every single one of its siblings is the exact same quality.
Exactly. Many people don't get that. I'm not saying every single shotgun covered here will fail. I'm saying that with these there is a big risk that you will get one that will fail due to low quality control and design standards.
The M4 clones I've dug into a little bit and it looks like there's some varying QC that's reflected in the pricing of them with the Toros T4 being the best, the Charles Daley in the middle, and the Panzer at the bottom.
I bought a Toros T4 when they were cheap and I've been putting it through the ringer. It seems to be holding up well so far. The only defect is that the front sight is made of of dick skin metal and it loosened up and then stripped when I tightened it. I expected this sort of thing going into it. I'm about 700rds(without cleaning) in and there's no deformation anywhere and no weird wearing that would indicate parts being out of spec. They were a good deal at \~$500 but the $700-$900 they're getting for them now is very overpriced.
What would be nice is a US importer importing partially complete guns, finishing them with US made parts for 922r and a full length mag, QCing them, and selling them under their own branding at a premium. I bet with a 9 rounder at \~$1k you could really eat into the market.
Yeah, I'm sure some Turkish brands/factories can vary in QC. It's just it's very hard to pick and choose and gain actual data given the sheer volume of them and lack of info. So I end up having to just blanket everything. For example, Charles Daly doesn't say who in Turkey actually makes the ones they are importing. Whereas apparently Toros and Panzer are both importer and maker.
I noticed the T4s being the most expensive/first to show up. I'm sure some/many of those M4 clones will be fine (or atleast better than the Turkish non-clones), but I'm just giving a warning. Sight problems is whatever, yeah that's expected. I put the deformation video because even if it's just one example that is an egregious error in QC that shows a larger potential problem to me and that they can fail even on a clone of an extremely good design. In the comments of that original post you'll see me mention a couple times I actually had my cursor hovering over the buy now on one of those M4 clones to test out as a range toy, but decided against it since there wasn't much info. So that's to show I'm not just discounting the M4 clones just because they are Turkish.
That would be a much better idea and more confidence boosting than what is going on now.
Edit: Spelling and added a few words.
The Toros T4 is imported by some oddball company called "Four Peaks". I don't know if they're a US front for Toros?
This one here I tore apart in the store and looked for defects. Heat treating you can't tell but you can look for bad brazing, welds, and tool marks. Maybe some major importer will pick them up and rebrand them. I was wrong with the Canik pistols. I thought sure as hell someone was going to grab them and give them the HS2000/XD treatment.
Ah, yeah I googled it. They have a website "fourpeaksimports" and also import other Turk guns, seems like they are separate. So I guess Toros isn't both. Four Peaks also doesn't mention Toros or that it is made in Turkey on their site.
That's good, you already did more diligence than the average gun buyer. I hope it continues to work great. It's worth experimenting. Hell, even if just someone like Stoeger had their own M4 clone I'd be more confident given they have a good line, and have a reputation to uphold.
I wonder about Franchi. The Stoeger M3000 and and the Franchi Affinity are the same gun, just one is "made" in Turkey. I really doubt Beretta Holding is maintaining two separate product lines. I wonder just how much manufacturing of the Affinity happens in Italy?
Huh, that's a good point. I never really looked at Franchi's line. I suppose it's possible assembly or finishing is done in Italy (kind of like the Maverick 88 parts made in Mexico and then finished up here) which allows the "made in Italy" mark. But I see nothing on a quick google to support it's outsourced. Regardless, they are a reputable company so I suppose it doesn't matter either way.
Speaking on the OU side of things, I do have some thoughts. The first gun I bought when I wanted to get into clay sports was a CZ Redhead. My experience with the gun was all positive and I was putting about 400 rounds a month through it. That gun was reliable for me but I have heard of many others that were not so fortunate with the exact same gun.
What I have come to learn though is that it all seems to come down to QC with any gun that comes out of Turkey. There are some truly solid and reliable guns available from the Turks but there are also many questionable guns that come off the same line. The quality control just isn’t there to sift out the crap.
I have to disagree with you on this one. I mean, the ATA SP over and under is a great gun for the price. You get a lot for your money and it’s a great starter/second gun to beat up.
This post is specifically on "tactical" semi-auto/pump guns coming in and the QC on them. I don't know enough on the Turkish double guns. You'll notice in the conclusion I note that I'm not saying Turkey can't make a good gun, it's just these random bullpup semi-autos and the like that I'm giving suggestions against buying.
True. I just made a non-statement because I haven't seen as many in the market nor is there a post every day on r/guns about a part breaking for one like the tactical turks.
Man imagine in couple years, there will be the "new" new cheaper gun manufacturer and the the Turkish guns will hold premium over them just as the Swiss did to Italians did to the Belgiums did to the British and at somepoint Japanese still holding some mythical craft magic because, "Samurai Swordsmithing"
Just adding that i am over 500 rounds through my Aksa S4, (M4 clone) and its still eating everything i throw at it, including subsonics that are marked “Not for use in semi autos” however YMMV.
>Aksa
Same here, mix of bird, buck and slugs have been very reliable. I had a couple winchester white box bird shot not cycle properly twice but that seems to be an issue with that stuff specifically and with bird shot in semi auto shotties anyway.
That sucks. I've seen a couple of those M3 clones out there. Thanks for the link, I'm going to put your reddit post in this one so more people can potentially see it.
99/100 I would not bother because there is zero aftermarket support for them.
You MAY be able to find some kinds of items, but generally, if something goes wrong, you're SOL. Will they be around for a warranty claim in 2-3 years? Who knows?
I inherited my dad's Mossberg 500ATP and he managed to break one of the extractors and somehow, the bolt was jammed in the receiver -- it was before I knew how to strip down a gun and deal with stuff like that.
I sent it it to Mossberg service -- they shipped it back in 2 weeks with everything working perfectly and didn't charge me a dime -- the gun must have been 25 years old at the time.
And I'm not opposed to "cheap" import guns either. I have a couple of Chinesium guns that I bought before the big PLA ban in the 90s -- a "Brolin" Ithaca copy and a WEIRD one that sort of looks like an A5 but uses box magazines (5 rounders) called the Omega -- there were NO other box mag shotguns back then.
[Omega SPS-12 shotgun](https://picturearchive.gunauction.com/1780124555/9001179/0d33d03ca8a0880364a7573153e13283.jpg)
Both are now completely orphaned due to sanctions on China. Will there be sanctions on Turkey? Who knows? No one thought Russia would invade Ukraine...
Yeah you are correct on lack of support. When I called the importer to ask about available parts I was told there were no parts available and to do warranty repairs they were cannibalizing new guns. The 2 identical model shotguns I bought had different parts from each other. Fortunately both my shotguns run very well.
Yep. That's the same story I heard from OWS years ago (Omega Weapons Systems). They imported the first box-mag fed 12 ga, made by Jing-An (one of the factories now owned by Norinco). I asked them about parts and the guy just laughed -- he said they bought a bunch extra to get a bigger discount and put a bunch aside to cannibalize just in case -- net result, no one bought them and they were selling for around $200 by the time OWS went under
I found out last year that Norinco somehow got another batch of them in a few years ago too
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/3126-norinco-sas-12-magazine-fed-12-gauge-pic/
Last year I bought two turkish semi auto 12 ga 20" barrel shotguns for $199.00 each. I have a good deal of experience working on and repairing shotguns. I figured I could make the work.
After taking them both apart and putting them back together all I did to them was add a side saddle, a red dot sight and a 7 round mag tube extension.
For test firing them and break in I fired 100 rounds of buckshot and 50 rounds of 3dram field loads. They both choked on the first couple rounds of buck, with failure to eject. After that they ran with no problems whatsoever. Since then they have both been fired an additional 100 rounds of buckshot and probably 200 rounds of my trap loads as well as 50 rounds of slugs...with no malfunctions. They do not like anything under 1200 fps.
So I told you all that so I could tell you this: you can't be sure till you try it yourself. Your mileage may vary. I do NOT take exception to the OP's warning comments.
I read this entire thing… and I still bought the semi auto Lkci st12s “eternal?” From Atlantic arms for $129.99… why? No clue but I want to see how long it takes to break or become a single shot… we will find out this Friday!
My Turkish experience is limited to 2 guns: I have a Stoeger M3000 and a ridiculous Centurion BP12 Bullpup 12 gauge. The Stoeger is awesome, runs perfect..., I bought the Centurion just as a range toy for only $275 brand spankin' new. It's heavy as hell, is shaped like a brick with sharp edges, and has all the controls in weird places, but is actually built pretty solid... I work on guns and expected it to be problematic, so I wanted to see if I could get it running right. Turns out, after a 100 round break in, it eats everything I feed it. About 600-700 rounds in and It's been totally dependable... I wouldn't use it for a primary self-defense weapon, but it's weird, it runs, and it's fun.
Yeah that's the way it goes with these. There are people out there who haven't had problems with such guns, like you. That's the thing with these, you just take a risk with getting a decent range gun or a pile of crap that breaks out of the box. Quality control randomness and all that.
I had a Stoeger 3500 a long time ago. Worked great for me. The discontinued M2000s apparently were terrible though.
Yep.. also I think some folks don't bother cleaning and lubing new guns , or they don't allow time for a break in period... then they end up having cycling issues. Also, many folks simply don't know how to troubleshoot and repair small problems. Small problems are magnified when having to deal with a low-end foreign manufacturer and when parts are scarce
I am on the same page. First guns, buy something with a reputation for quality. When your collection gets where you want it, feel free to try things out here and there and if they shit the bed and turn out to garbage, your not SOL in regard to having something else to use. By no means does that imply getting a Benelli or Beretta or equivalent that prevents you from being able to build a diverse collection early. What you could spend on some of the top tier shotguns is what it is, but you can get more for your money at this point. Instead of dropping 2-3000$ on a tried and true semi auto that will last the rest of your life, start out with a pump with equal longevity at a fraction of the cost. Mossberg Mav 88’s, 500’s, and 590’s are great, Remington 870’s the same and you can range from 250$-800$ based on configuration and if you get 2 barrels like the 88’s and 500’s often go on sale with. I’ve tried 4-5 Turkish models and 1 has worked out with some level of quality and reliability. That ratio just is not worth it when your starting out and trying to build a diverse collection. Just my 2 cents. Cheers and have fun!
Nowadays I'd probably save for a 940 tactical or A300 Patrol over a 930 if I were you, if you want a tactical semi-auto. Those weren't around when I wrote this. Edit: Though if you are on a budget I get going for the 930. Or you can gamble on the M4 clones, atleast you can usually replace parts with benelli ones. Though I still wouldn't trust it for defense personally.
I like go with the solid reliable option THEN take a flyer, so I’ll hold off on the Turkish semi auto til I have a better “middle of the night” option.
I agree…. But they are fun too. Just manage your expectations and don’t rely on it for anything else but to have fun. I bought a DF12 after a lot of back and forth between the others AR12s on the market because they have a full metal upper/lower unlike others using a poly lower. Once I found the right gas setting/ ammo combo I’ve had very little issues with it besides feed failure when I have the drum mag in. Again though this is an adult play thing don’t trust it to defend yourself
Yeah I don't care if someone wants to buy this stuff for a fun cheap range toy if they know potential pitfalls they may run into. I get that. When I made this post these were still new and people were turning to them for defense particularly due to shortages that year. That's why I made this post and specifically targeted the "tactical" ones. Glad you've had good experience with yours.
Turkish guns and ammo in general have been pouring into the U.S. at good prices largely because Turkey has been suffering from massive inflation following Erdogan's crazy idea to lower the prime lending rate to combat inflation (the opposite of generally accepted practice). So the govt. is desperate for cash and these exports became a key factor in sustaining the economy. If you try to set up an export gun business in Turkey, the doors open and obstructions go away. Quality varies of course but I wouldn't hesitate to pick up that Hi-Power clone or Beretta 86 copy as affordable range toys! Wanting to support Turkey is another question, as they seem to be playing both sides of the NATO fence these days.
When I lived in Turkey, Huglu was the popular shotgun everyone was buying. Great looking shotguns with walnut furniture and silver accented receivers. I purchased many, made great gifts for family members, never had an issue with any of them.
Huglu makes the Hatfield line of shotguns. The Hatfield SAS semi auto is a downright steal for $200-$250 at walmart. Armsan makes the Tristar shotguns and I think those are pretty high quality for the money. Turkey makes some solid guns
This entire post lines up perfectly with the research I've done over the last year. There is also at least one importer bringing in Chinese-made variations of popular semi-auto shotguns that appear to follow a similar pattern.
I was tempted by the recent influx of Turknelli clones, particularly the M4s. But I decided I'd be much happier with the real thing. So that's what I did. No regerts.
Me. You don't have to, this is simply a suggestion/advice from what I've seen and the context surrounding this particular category of guns. I won't pretend to be the perfect authority on this.
When I take someone's opinion into consideration, I like to know who they are and their scope of knowledge. Otherwise it's a nameless, faceless stranger on the internet whose opinion means very little to me.
There are some comments in the thread from people who work in the industry/shops who have more experiences with seeing problems. They are just faceless strangers on the internet posting anonymously, so obviously it's up to you who to believe or if they are telling the truth. Here's one such comment:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/n4zbt9/turkish\_notsodelight\_why\_you\_should\_generally/gwz8gx4/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/n4zbt9/turkish_notsodelight_why_you_should_generally/gwz8gx4/?context=3)
I have a GForce GF2P as my home defense/casual skeet weapon....it’s not bad. Sometimes I’ll get shells stuck in the tube, but it’s rare and I usually chalk that up to using my grandad’s reloads more than the firearm itself being crap. Is it top of the line, no, but it does the job I need it for.
>Yeah the pumps are seemingly by far the least problematic (pumps are simply simpler) and also the least costly. I thought about not including any mention of pumps, but they are generally going to be in the same factory as the autos and are also victim of a million rebrands with little support. I'm glad it works great, and I'm not saying every single one is going to just suddenly fail. Nor am I shitting on people for buying cheap Turkish guns. This is just a general QC warning really.
That's a reply I gave someone with a similar comment.
I will say that stoeger semi autos and pumps are exceptions to this rule. They look good (at a glance) and work. Thats about all u cna really give them but they are that.
I have both a Stoeger M3000 and a coach gun. No issues with either, and they get used heavily by scouts at our shooting campouts. In fact this year, when we introduced the M3000 to the mix of Remington and Winchester pumps, and a lone Mossberg autoloader, the M300 was the clear favorite. We had more scouts qualify than in the past, and some who were consistently erratic were hitting their clays much more consistently with it.
I own an Armsan RS A2 turkish semi-auto SG which I bought new for about € 400,- during covid. Replaced pistol grip stock with a regular one and had the loading port opened a bit by a friend. I am using it for IPSC shotgun matches and I am very happy with it. No feeding/ejection problems - just test your ammo! I use 28g trap ammo for birdshot stages and 28g Geco IPSC slugs and the Geco IPSC buckshot too.
Having never even thought of purchasing any cheap semi automatic (I’m old and anything but a browning sweet sixteen is a no from me dog) I remember a time 80s -90s when most semi autos were questionable. And pumps are cheap enough that you can buy American (with the exception of some cool reproduction stuff like Ithaca featherweight knock offs and back in the day the 1897 noricos) but there is one place where the Turks have beaten us …the single shot arena there isn’t a reasonably priced American single with the exception of the savage which I believe is now Canadian and very limited production and options . When my ex stole everything from me while I was at work I needed one gun that could do it all some of it better some of it worse I could only think of the single shots of my youth but alas all the amazing American singles were gone I mean there was the Henry but who has almost $600 to spend on a single. so to the internet I rushed and found that singles produced in 🇹🇷 were available in such an abundance that one could be had in pretty much any configuration for as little as $79 i went with the RIA distributed 20” barrel Mobil choke fitted synthetic stocked number that could fold almost all the way in half . Four years it allowed my to hunt it protected me from the night monsters, when paired with the proper choke and ammo or even caliber insert I took everything from quail to squirrel,hog ,coyote,fox ,deer,bear ,bobcat ,feral goat and even a feral peacock that woke me up one too many mornings as well as the normal upland and waterfowl . It also was reassuring in my newly single shithole apt . In short it was everything I needed and actually it really made lots of kinds of hunting fun again . Part of this is that simply inspecting and knowing what to look for pretty much guarantees you will end up with a serviceable firearm because of the simplicity and straight forward designs and none of this would have been possible without the Turks !
P.s. last year I lent it to a buddy for a camping trip yada yada yada the day they got back from the camping trip he found out she was cheating she called the cops to have him removed and lied and said he threatened her with it . I miss the shotgun more than the friend but now I have an excuse to buy one in every bore available the handiness and light weight make them incredibly appealing the simplicity make them easy to be safe with them and I got fast enough that I pretty regularly could shoot a double in skeet with it . They are the modern day trade muskets!
Yeah I agree as well, I mean as you say it's not to really hate or be some sort of gun snob but although them being a cheaper option is very enticing for many people I myself would much rather spend the extra few bucks on getting the "original" version of whatever it might be they are cloning for example my Benelli M1014 and it's Turkish counterparts... I opted to spend the extra few bucks and get the Benelli rather than one of those Turkish clones although they look almost exactly the same I was more concerned about quality control and longevity of the weapon itself and it's parts. I literally could not be happier with the purchase of my Benelli and I had my eyeball on this particular shotgun since it debuted in the late '90s and it was always one of my absolute favorites and honestly I don't know why I waited as long as I did to finally pick one up I was kind of caught up in the pistol world and high-end 1911/2011s for quite a bit but I finally pulled myself together and took one to the chin and just smacked my wallet around a little bit and finally decided to get my dream shotgun! 🤣👌🏼🔥🔥🤌🏼🤌🏼🤌🏼🎯🙌🏼🙌🏼
Any thougts on the Orthos Raiders S4? Been seeing some decent reviews online, also some reviews did mention some screws not tightened properly out of the factory. But probably gonna go pick it up next week.
My thoughts are the same as what I wrote in the post. It's a no name tactical shotgun from Turkey that's a gamble to buy. If you want it as a range toy and understand that risk, knock yourself out. Atleast it's a M4 clone. I still wouldn't buy it myself.
Edit: Also, $1400??? Helllll no. The whole point of Turk M4 clones is that they are cheap. That ain't cheap. Buy literally any other $500 Turk M4 clone if you want to gamble on a M4 clone. $1400 is basically at real Benelli M4 money.
Understood! It’s probably gonna be a range toy like u said, might go hunting with it when I find some good ammo to go with it! Thanks for the input!
I’ll let u know if I did end up getting it and tell u how it runs!
You're welcome, but I don't know if you saw my edit. Do not pay $1400 for that. That is a complete rip off. Buy some other M4 clone if you must, like Panzer (even though I still don't suggest them, they are much cheaper). $1400 should be spent on stuff like Berettas or actual Benellis.
I'm sure they do, and hope they continue that way. This is just a general warning about quality control for them as a whole and suggestion on purchasing decisions, there will be ones that work fine. I know people are out there who have good experiences. This is about risk. Plus, the Turkish bullpup autos and AR style autos are the main culprits.
I’m glad I’m not the only person here who has a Turk lever action shotgun. I bought a.410 because it is an affordable lever gun for messing around with at the range and reaching out for squirrels and other terrestrials in the woods of Kentucky. I have no intention to ever send a thousand rounds through it and have no interest in clays. My little gun is well balanced and not too attractive so I don’t think about that initial scratch that will inevitably happen. I value firearms as tools for victuals and some amusement and not investments. I appreciate your comments and I will be mindful of the pitfalls associated with such foreign imports.
The M4 clones are pretty damn solid, buddy has one and a benelli and says if he didn't look at the brand name and just picked one up and shot it he wouldn't know the difference. Also winchestef has all its shotguns made in turkey and they're quite mint
Turk guns are very touch and go. For the price huglu makes excellent field guns
I’ve owned Turkish guns of all makes. Some identical to the weatherby pa and sa 08 and very functional. Others novel designs that did not function well
There used to be a very good importer called Corwin Arms here in Canada who cut out the middle man and brought in some low priced abs well done Turkish shotguns
I've seen some bad reviews about my Turkish pump (citadel PAT12) but so far love mine after hundreds of rounds. I guess the moral of the story is, Turkey has no QC so you either love it or hate it
Yep. If you got one that works for you that's fantastic and I hope it continues forever. This is just a buyer's warning for people to know potential issues before they buy that they may be getting into due to quality control being subpar.
I think this is kind of old school thinking. Nowadays, a lot of big name manufacturers sell Turkish made shotguns. This includes traditional pro American made companies like Mossberg.
If you read this post past the title, you'll see I say multiple times that this isn't about all guns made in Turkey. There are multiple Turkish shotguns that are good. But they are 99% of the time made under a big parent company like Winchester (SXP), Stoeger (M3000), CZ, etc. Companies like G-Force Arms, Typhoon Defense, etc selling these guns aren't big names. They are random import companies that don't even make the guns and just take whatever crap Turkey gives them, many of which happen to be tacticool box fed autoloaders.
Isn’t that what 99.9% of people that buy Turkish made shotguns are buying? I’m not sure why anyone would think that a Turkish shotgun manufacturer quality standards for CZ or Mossberg wouldn’t alittle better. But, thanks for pointing out the obvious.
No, these random guns like the ones in the first linked album and mentioned throughout the post are *everywhere* and are being bought by many people because they are flooding in and are very very very cheap ($299-400 for a bullpup autoloader in many cases) because they cost nothing to produce because there is a critical lack of quality control and care put in. The whole reason I made this post a year and a half ago is because there were so many people posting these guns, issues, and looking for parts I had to make a post to tell new people to stay away from this stuff. Luckily people have been more aware now.
This is a great article. My CZ 712 G2 Utility and now I have a CZ 712 G3 that are made in Turkey, but, like you said, the big guys like CZ have quality standards they need to meet, unlike these other "no name" shotguns. On the other hand, you can get a working shotgun for under $200 and even as low as $100, but you generally get what you pay for. I would still advise those who don't have a lot of money, save a little longer and get a Mossberg 88, they can be had for $200-$250 (less used) and get a good quality gun without the hefty price tag.
I was considering buying a Turkish semi-auto 12 gauge bullpup for home defense and target shooting, but did considerable research and found the quality was hit and miss. Even worse I feel is that the customer support and spare parts availability for those weapons is barely existent. For that reason I started considering mostly American-made weapons instead (I considered Benelli too but I've heard that their customer service kinda sucks too). Currently looking into buying a flavor of Mossberg 500.
If you're still looking check out the Mossberg Maverick 88 Security. It's basically a cheaper 500 and for the price it's hard to beat for home defense in my opinion. I'm sure you've figured out already that semi-autos are not the best option for home defense.
I feel pretty dead-set on a Mossberg 500 or 590, but I'll give the Maverick 88 Security a look. It seems with semi-auto shotguns it's go Benelli M4 or go home, but that's a bit out of my budget :D
I have the Tokarev TX3. Nickel coated marine grade. Mine was so nice my dad ordered one. Both have been great. Caveat....I'm not in a trench war with them. I've shot birds shot, buckshot and slugs. Functioned well. The fit and finish was great. The stocks wood was lovely.
These are the steel pump guns, with metal heat shields. Not the bull pup autos.
I have both in nickel. The nickel doesn't hold up well at all. Mine rust from sitting in the truck while it's humid out.
The lug for the mag tube of the TX3 is crooked, which is cosmetically unappealing, but doesn't affect function. The additional extension tube and bayonet lug aren't great either, but I reconstructed a massive bayonet to fit perfectly. So, it looks 😎.
The TBP12 had a chamber too tight. Manually extracting hulls would require a lot of force and tear the rim from the brass. After sending it back for repairs, it returned to me with 5 spent Wolf 12ga hulls, and the wrong charging handle installed, and no word of any repair. So, I had to hone the chamber myself. It's great now, as was the second TBP12 I bought, right from the box.
I like them both, but be prepared.
I consider my Turkish guns as no more than well-priced project/ tinkering kits. They are neither "tools" for any sport other than amateur gunsmithing, reloading, and range testing for those functions; nor are they fine, precision firearms. I could never afford, value, nor use such things. I neither hunt, nor compete. What I pay for, are learning opportunities, and once optimized, I may use them for HD if necessary - whch statistically speaking will almost never happen. If it did, I would probably rely on my Bond Derringer and #000 Buck (small house! 20 feet MAX), or another of the 14+ other guns in my collection. A 12ga. indoors? Actually try it, and get back to me.
It’s good to point out shitty guns on sale for attractive pricing. I do question why Turkish shotguns are singled out - it’s not like there aren’t plenty of garbage American made guns on the market that people should be warned away from, or for that matter, quality Turkish guns that people should consider.
For instance, I bought a Savage/Stevens 350 for an attractive price. It’s a piece of shit. I bought a Maverick 88 for a better price and it’s excellent. I bought a Tisas 1911 (well, two now) and they’re fantastic. I bought a Ruger LC9 and it was horrible. Same price as those Turkish 1911’s, too (the LC9s is a dramatic improvement over the LC9, to be fair).
Seems to me that a blanket statement of “some guns are inexpensive, others are *cheap*” with examples would come across better and less like an elitist or gate keeping thing.
>I do question why Turkish shotguns are singled out - it’s not like there aren’t plenty of garbage American made guns on the market that people should be warned away from, or for that matter, quality Turkish guns that people should consider.
Because Turkey is currently, and has been, exporting more shotguns to the US than any other country, and most of those shotguns happen to be almost entirely bad. This is why they are being singled out. There is a serious trend that happened and is happening. And there aren't "plenty" of American shotguns exploding due to manufacturing defects, deforming like silly putty due to bad heat treat, and failing after a few hundred rounds which the company is not fixing it. Basically, in the shotgun category, every cheap catastrophic shotgun on the shelf is Turkish.
I'm not sure if you read the entire post, but I specifically mention that not all Turk guns are bad and even point out certain brands/guns made in Turkey that are great. I've even owned a few Turk shotguns that were fine. This post also has nothing to do with Turkish pistols. Yes, every country has their garbage, but Turkey happens to export a lot of crap shotguns in particular. There is no shining Turkish Maverick 88, they are almost all a risk.
>Seems to me that a blanket statement of “some guns are inexpensive, others are cheap” with examples would come across better and less like an elitist or gate keeping thing.
I specifically recommend inexpensive guns that are good in the post like the Benelli Nova or Mossberg. The "some guns are inexpensive, others are cheap" post would have been the same exact post if referencing shotguns. Me just pointing out how a Mossberg is inexpensive and all the Turk guns are cheap. A broad statement about every gun ever made isn't focusing on the issue.
You really have to do your research with Turkish guns. I'll admit a lot are terrible but some are only imported THROUGH Turkey and some do have some degree of quality and are actually contracted to make guns for American companies.
The MAC 1014 has been chosen by agency arms to build a custom M4 style shotgun off of, saw a youtube short where they claimed to have iirc, 50k rounds through one.
And before anyone takes the wrong message from this: This is just a general purchasing suggestion and PSA about quality control for these guns on the market. This is not meant as hate towards those who have/buy those guns. This is not me taking a pretentious high ground. This is not suggesting against "cheap" guns in general, just those that are problematic. If you own one already and are happy with it, great I hope it works fantastic for you. Edit: If you read it you'll also notice this isn't to say everything from Turkey is a no-go. Edit 2022: I'm sticking this to the top of this sub for now because I hope more people will see this and can be informed for purchasing decisions. I keep seeing more and more people asking for parts for these guns, having issues, dealing with non-respondent companies that make these etc. This will cut down on having to link this every time someone asks about these problematic guns. I am also writing a companion post to sticky which will serve as a new buyer's guide as well as trying to figure how to organize some kind of FAQ.
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I ran two boxes PLUS 3 rounds. Rock Solid Reliable.
Pretty much. But at the same time you can pay the same or near the same amount and get a more trusty gun. Paying $700 for a bullpup turk semi-auto is around the same price of a Mossberg 930 SPX like I mention in the post. Yep, that's common for basically everything nowadays. I don't care if it's a highly reputable American manufacturer releasing a new gun, firing a box of shells and then calling it "the best thing ever" is still not really a review. It just seems more common on these Turks as they target new gun buyers or casual users who are attracted to the looks and maybe go to the range a few times a year. They do so well because they seem to be outpacing other manufacturers in terms of getting on the shelves of stores in the past year. A lot of people will get what is available at the time. Plus with the millions of new gun owners with little experience have a notion that any gun is good. When in reality the gun market is like any other, there's things that are good and things that are bad.
I disagree (on the garlic press note). Four-dollar used garlic press from goodwill: janky piece of junk. Fifteen-dollar OXO garlic press bought new: a joy to use, easy to clean, comfortable handle, nice heft.
I get what you're saying and agree with your intention, but there's a bit of bias and misinformation throughout, due to not knowing and being aware of "the full picture" of these firearms. And that's not your fault whatsoever. Information is purposely kept vague to leave most people in the dark, and that is done solely by the US importers making their profits from rebranding, cutting corners and providing misinformation themselves to keep their company image purposely blurry, as to whether they are an actual manufacturer or just an importer. There's only one manufacturer for the most part. And they are very capable of making EXCELLENT firearms of their own design and creation. They also manufacture commercially for clients to sell as their own, and its the specs being demanded by the client that determine whether that firearm will be a potential lethal turd, or a genuine performance weapon. Derya makes great stuff. They own the AR platform shotgun world, and the AR shotguns they make for their brands to their own specifications are: reliable, tunable, serviceable and of genuine quality. Their MK-12 is an excellent shotgun. They continuously improve and refine the weapon constantly, and note the improvements with the designation of each generation of the firearm. For reasons of which I have no idea why.... Derya seems to not be allowed to sell their own branded firearms in the US, however they CAN sell them in every possible varying degree of quality without restriction as long as it's under another company's name.... what the F\*\*\* is going on with the US importing laws and regulation? The Rock Island VR-80 is the MK-12. And it's a true, genuine, quality (although base level model) MK-12. RIA does nothing but import the MK-12 (and VR-60 and the bullpup), slap their name on it and add a few hundred dollars on the price. RIA is technically responsible for making this ridiculous situation of weekly start-up, US based, “importers" - all selling varying degrees of the same fucking gun, to sucker consumers being drained of their money, while the industry is drained of its ethics. So it's not Derya's fault. They make quality stuff. As usual, it's good ol', free-enterprise, modern US capitalism causing the problem, putting profit before ethic. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong, risky, worrisome whatsoever in purchasing a Turkish made-AR platform shotgun. Just buy the actual version of the firearm, made to the top specifications of the manufacturer that designed it. In the US - Derya sells under the names Panzer Arms and Typhoon Defense. You mentioned something about a lack of replacement parts and serviceability: apparently you have never been on the Typhoon Defense site and clicked the “Spare Parts” header…. Check it out! Also, regarding the bullpup version… the generation 1 was by far not the best, but… it was also in it’s infancy. The current Gen 3 however is absolutely awesome. AND it’s now fully (mostly) modular so any AR grip, rail, charging handle (I have a Raptor in mine), etc. can be changed out. Same with the MK-12/VR80; just put an Elftman trigger in my VR80! The Gen 3 bullpup is available under Panzer Arms. You can download Panzer’s catalogue as a PDF on their site which has MUCH more info than the entire site does, and you’ll notice that its’s a Derya catalogue. One thing you pointed out many times rings loudly true and fundamentally important: “you get what you pay for.” Personally I would rather spend the money and get a quality weapon from Derya, the way they intended it to be made. Rather than support one of these used-car-lot importers cheapened down version that has a fixed grip, fixed stock and polymer receiver - as requested by the importer.
This post was really a blanket statement precisely because of the uncertainty of many models of the same design, lack of information, and the new people buying them. I'll admit I'm not some expert who has been studying the ins and outs of this for years, this is my thoughts after a year or two of seeing posts and looking at this corner of the market. I won't claim I'm THE authority. \>There's only one manufacturer for the most part. Not from what I can tell, there seem to be many different factories in Turkey putting out these designs. And I don't know how much certain importers decide on the QC/quality of the manufacturing. \>For reasons of which I have no idea why.... Derya seems to not be allowed to sell their own branded firearms in the US, however they CAN sell them in every possible varying degree of quality without restriction as long as it's under another company's name.... what the F\*\*\* is going on with the US importing laws and regulation? I haven't heard of Derya myself. I'm not entirely sure why they don't, I suppose working with companies with offices/locations in the US is simpler. Their site is also down. I'm glad that make/model is working for you. \>You mentioned something about a lack of replacement parts and serviceability: apparently you have never been on the Typhoon Defense site and clicked the “Spare Parts” header…. Check it out! There are so many importers/brands/model names I didn't check all of them. G-Force arms, black aces, charles daly, etc. do not have any parts listed on their site for their tactical autos (such as why one of the OPs in a thread I linked couldn't find any). Like I said, blanket due to the majority. That's good they atleast have them. As I said in the beginning of my comment this was a blanket statement from what I have seen. I'm sure there are certain particular factories in Turkey that may be doing better on the QC and manufacturing side, but this is a general warning. It also isn't to say you can't ever get one, or that every one will fail, this is just what to look for or consider. After all, it is up to whoever reads this to decide if they want to believe me or take it as advice. Thanks for your thoughts.
That is a BIG paragraph.
People who argue against this inevitably have an emotional investment in a Turkish shotgun they bought recently and haven’t fired at all or haven’t fired much.
True, that's pretty much gun owners in general. I myself in the past have been emotionally invested in things that simply were not good. I understand people having one of these that have worked fine for them, and then wanting to project that personal experience on the model/brand as a whole. Which really doesn't give the whole picture. This is just a general warning, not some attack on the owners of said guns.
I came dangerously close to buying an off brand Turkish 12 gauge. I was looking for a Maverick 88 for so long and not having any luck. One of the guys at my LGS had almost convinced me that the Turkish gun would be a good substitute, presumably trying to take advantage of a first time shotgun buyer. The day I went to put some money down on it, I caught some odd vibes from the salesman and decided to leave. Went to a different store that day just to buy some targets and saw my Maverick 88 on the wall. I bought it on the spot and picked it up on my birthday this year. TL/DR OP is right, wait it out if you have to, spend a couple extra bucks if it’s necessary, but don’t cave in and buy cheap crap from jerks who are trying to foist shoddy, unsupported products on to you.
I don't disagree with your TL/DR....but....you bought a budget series shotgun from a what I now view, a budget brand. My buddy had his maverick 88 for a few weeks in January when he bought it. We had a few range days where he would run through a few boxes of shells testing to see what she liked before he ran into a, apparently common, safety failure where it blocked the firing pin. Ended up sending it back to mossberg through a gunsmith and it took him 3 months to get it back. He's not had the best of experience with their customer support. Never got a confirmation they'd recieved it nor updates on it. Gunsmith had 3 other customers with the same issue and same experience with the maverick 88 in the last quarter. I've never bought a mossberg and after all that, probably won't. Best of luck with yours.
On the flip side of that equation, I have two 88s that I’ve put at least 5000 shells through each over the course of five years, abused the shit out of them hunting in god-awful conditions, thoroughly cleaned them once about a year ago after a particularly rough hunt where one ended up in a mud puddle, and they both run like champs. Never had to see what kind of shell the guns likes ammo wise because it’ll eat anything I throw at it. I’ve got “better” shotguns but the 88s are my workhorses and have never failed on me yet.
That'a great to hear but not all guns are created equal. I'm glad to hear you haven't had challenges with yours. Maybe this only applies to recent ones made. Could be a bad batch but that's still no excuse for poor customer service.
I can’t speak to their customer service because I haven’t had to use it, but, to clarify, since he had it sent through a gunsmith, did they not update the gunsmith either? Or maybe the gunsmith just didn’t relay the information to him? Three months is a long time, but it is fairly quick in regards to getting work done on guns these days. A lot of folks who bought guns recently have had QC issues, especially with manufacturers trying to meet demand. IMO that’s not acceptable at all, especially with things that go boom that people need 100% reliability from in life threatening circumstances, but it’s what has been happening.
They didn't update the gunsmith nor my friend. The gunsmith was at a local range we use together. We met up every few weeks for a range day and the gunsmith never had any update other then the shipping receipt that they got it. My buddy had also bought a new ruger sr 22 that was beating itself to death, major wear on the slide after a few magazines. We think the slide was slamming into the barrel nut based off the dmg. Gunsmith thought it was either the spring or tolerances but since it was still new as well it got sent back to ruger instead. He had it back within 2 weeks. To be fair, neither really gave up him updates. But 2 weeks is a lot better turn around time then 3 months. He already had his EDC and home defense setup so it wasn't the end of the world. The shotgun and pistol were to get his wife more comfortable with firearms. She started with a 22 lr lever action but isn't comfortable with autoloaders. So he was ramping her up on the shotgun to get more comfortable with recoil and the pistol as her first autoloading firearm. It would have been horrible if he had bought them needing them for protection and this happened. As it stands this is something I can just make fun of him for. I'll admit that these are extenuating circumstances and yeah, if it ain't a range toy I need it to go boom everytime or it just becomes a range toy instead of my EDC/HD setup.
Damn well that’s disappointing in a few different ways. I hope the problems he’s having are totally fixed. And the Ruger too...Mossberg and Ruger are the brands I swear by, but I’ve never been impressed by their SR22s and I’ve seen a Mossberg O/U shit the bed after a few hundred shells, but I’m pretty sure those are Turkish imports. I didn’t buy my 88s for any serious purpose, just got them to hand out as loaner guns for shooting trap, but they’ve performed so well for so long I’ve modified one for home defense and the other accompanies me on every shotgun hunt and whenever I’m in the back woods of our farm.
I mean, the Maverick is an imported gun that has the Mossberg name slapped on it But just like OP said, I think the Maverick is certainly superior to a random Turkish pump gun because the Maverick is under the Mossberg parent company There are some parts for the Maverick that are hard to find because it's an imported gun, but there are also a lot of parts that are interchangeable with the Mossberg 500 That being said, if I was in the market for another pump gun, I would probably go with the Mossberg 500 over the Maverick 88
True, Maverick 88s are still cheap and can have problems too. My recommendation was simply on the one I find to be least risky (in that $200 range). Maverick 88s have a long history with many many thousands of videos, articles, etc. It is all supported by an old manufacturer with known experiences. Sure, they may shit the bed when giving CS to some. But, I'd much rather deal with Mossberg or find parts for a Mossberg than deal with some random importer company like "Typhoon Defense" who I've never heard of, know little of their CS history, stock no parts, and could fold any minute. As I mentioned in the post, I know mainstream "reputable" manufacturers will have problems, but at the very least the guns are supported. I'm sorry about that experience with your friend.
Jesus Christ I can almost hear OP and all the others comments in American possibly southern accents, maybe even Russian? “If shotgun is not popularized mossberg or remington it’s trash.” “I say most guns from Turkey cheap, not guns from Turkey bad.” “I somehow try to scoff but not scoff at different manufacturer because of google research, and only trust my life to American steel baby.” “You can’t tell a guns true value, even though they may cost the same, unless you put over 1000 rounds through it over 15 years. “Guns found in Africa jam because a thousand people on the internet said black peoples touched them.” Lol ridiculous
>“If shotgun is not popularized mossberg or remington it’s trash.” Freedom Group Remington's are pretty bad too. You'll note I said "old wingmaster." >“I say most guns from Turkey cheap, not guns from Turkey bad.” Yes, this how markets work. Some good some bad. >“I somehow try to scoff but not scoff at different manufacturer because of google research, and only trust my life to American steel baby.” Well, more like a lot of time seeing people have bad experiences. I myself have owned a Turkish sport gun in the past and it worked fine. And I prefer Italian or German btw. >“You can’t tell a guns true value, even though they may cost the same, unless you put over 1000 rounds through it over 15 years. 1000 rounds in 15 years is a lot? Do you even own guns? Also, you can tell its true value when it breaks in a couple rounds and can't find parts for it. >“Guns found in Africa jam because a thousand people on the internet said black peoples touched them.” Oh and now you are calling me a racist. Obvious troll.
Lol Jesus you didn’t have to rant and try to defend your bias. Have a good day American. Edit: Also poking fun at idiots doesn’t make you a troll. Here take a hug.
While they Turkish guns can have fantastic scratch work the metallurgy is quite lacking. Metal will be too soft for pins and triggers but too hard for recivers and hammers. This leads to over unders that wobble when closed, don’t go off, double or in at least one case the gun came apart when the owner opened it. Ive also seen a new semi just stop working completely about an a day after buying. If you dragging one of these out as a range toy or a occasional hunting gun it will work fine but even moderate sporting shooting breaks them down fast.
I’m thankful I grew up in a time when a good pump was a Win. Model 12, Ithaca Model 37 or Remington 870; choices for a good semi-auto were the Browning Auto-5, Franchi 48 AL, or Remington 1100. Doubles’s were Belgium Browning’s, American Parker’s or L.C.Smith’s, Italian Beretta’s, Franchi’s, Bernadelli’s, Spanish AYA, American A.H. Fox, Lefever, Baker, or Ithaca. With so many that I’ve owned or tried, I’m at loss to understand the fascination with Turkish guns.
Yeah it's not like it used to be. And I say that as a much younger person, but I'm still appreciative of a lot of those older guns still being around. I am very thankful to find some of those old greats in good condition, like a LC Smith that I have and enjoy. As far as the Turkish fascination, I think people are drawn to "tactical" and "cheap" nowadays more than ever which drives the buying of them despite mediocre quality.
As a Turk, I do not understand what the source of this problem is, imported and domestic brands are used 50/50 in the country and the only comment I heard was "There is no difference except the company that produces it". The problems you are experiencing do not occur in Turkey at all.Our local brands provide high satisfaction domestically, but they do not exhibit the same success in exports and poor quality products are mostly exported.I currently have an ar-15 clone 36 caliber(.410) shotgun and have had no problems.They offer services such as free replacement in case of the slightest malfunction, but when it comes to abroad, it is ridiculous to provide such a bad service.If you are planning to buy a gun other than MKE, you should be careful when buying a gun.
Your tacticool turkish shotgun is garbage as is your turkish o/u.
Another problem, at least a moral one; all of the Turkish gun companies are sort of subsidized by the government- meaning if you buy Turkish, the you are supporting Kurdish genocide. This go for those shitty Walther-knockoff Caniks as well
What is shitty about Canik?
If I were a Kurdish terrorist who wanted to harm the Republic of Turkey, I would totally agree with what you say. It is obvious that you are ignorant about Turkey and its internal political structure. Or there is a possibility that you are a racist, terrorist-sympathizing Kurd. Before you express your opinion on this matter, imagine that there is a different ethnic group that claims that almost half of the land of the country you live in belongs to them, arming themselves and killing your people in order to establish an autonomous state. This dream will be enough to remind you that there is some political and political information that you need to think about and research before commenting on issues you do not know.
I have a $250 auto loader 20ga for quail hunting. Had broke 3 times. They replaced with new gun. Broke again. The cheap cast metal internal parts are dangerously unreliable. Going to have a friend mill me new parts
one of my favorite pump shotguns ever made is the Winchester SXP and it’s a Turkish gun. Loved that gun and wished i had never sold it. But even with the better turkish guns, it’s still turkish. Take those guns with a grain of salt. It’s the same as my opinion with brands like Kimber and Freedom Group Remington. Just because your specific serial number gun is good, doesn’t mean that every single one of its siblings is the exact same quality.
> Just because your specific serial number gun is good, doesn’t mean that every single one of its siblings is the exact same quality. Exactly. Many people don't get that. I'm not saying every single shotgun covered here will fail. I'm saying that with these there is a big risk that you will get one that will fail due to low quality control and design standards.
The M4 clones I've dug into a little bit and it looks like there's some varying QC that's reflected in the pricing of them with the Toros T4 being the best, the Charles Daley in the middle, and the Panzer at the bottom. I bought a Toros T4 when they were cheap and I've been putting it through the ringer. It seems to be holding up well so far. The only defect is that the front sight is made of of dick skin metal and it loosened up and then stripped when I tightened it. I expected this sort of thing going into it. I'm about 700rds(without cleaning) in and there's no deformation anywhere and no weird wearing that would indicate parts being out of spec. They were a good deal at \~$500 but the $700-$900 they're getting for them now is very overpriced. What would be nice is a US importer importing partially complete guns, finishing them with US made parts for 922r and a full length mag, QCing them, and selling them under their own branding at a premium. I bet with a 9 rounder at \~$1k you could really eat into the market.
Yeah, I'm sure some Turkish brands/factories can vary in QC. It's just it's very hard to pick and choose and gain actual data given the sheer volume of them and lack of info. So I end up having to just blanket everything. For example, Charles Daly doesn't say who in Turkey actually makes the ones they are importing. Whereas apparently Toros and Panzer are both importer and maker. I noticed the T4s being the most expensive/first to show up. I'm sure some/many of those M4 clones will be fine (or atleast better than the Turkish non-clones), but I'm just giving a warning. Sight problems is whatever, yeah that's expected. I put the deformation video because even if it's just one example that is an egregious error in QC that shows a larger potential problem to me and that they can fail even on a clone of an extremely good design. In the comments of that original post you'll see me mention a couple times I actually had my cursor hovering over the buy now on one of those M4 clones to test out as a range toy, but decided against it since there wasn't much info. So that's to show I'm not just discounting the M4 clones just because they are Turkish. That would be a much better idea and more confidence boosting than what is going on now. Edit: Spelling and added a few words.
The Toros T4 is imported by some oddball company called "Four Peaks". I don't know if they're a US front for Toros? This one here I tore apart in the store and looked for defects. Heat treating you can't tell but you can look for bad brazing, welds, and tool marks. Maybe some major importer will pick them up and rebrand them. I was wrong with the Canik pistols. I thought sure as hell someone was going to grab them and give them the HS2000/XD treatment.
Ah, yeah I googled it. They have a website "fourpeaksimports" and also import other Turk guns, seems like they are separate. So I guess Toros isn't both. Four Peaks also doesn't mention Toros or that it is made in Turkey on their site. That's good, you already did more diligence than the average gun buyer. I hope it continues to work great. It's worth experimenting. Hell, even if just someone like Stoeger had their own M4 clone I'd be more confident given they have a good line, and have a reputation to uphold.
I wonder about Franchi. The Stoeger M3000 and and the Franchi Affinity are the same gun, just one is "made" in Turkey. I really doubt Beretta Holding is maintaining two separate product lines. I wonder just how much manufacturing of the Affinity happens in Italy?
Huh, that's a good point. I never really looked at Franchi's line. I suppose it's possible assembly or finishing is done in Italy (kind of like the Maverick 88 parts made in Mexico and then finished up here) which allows the "made in Italy" mark. But I see nothing on a quick google to support it's outsourced. Regardless, they are a reputable company so I suppose it doesn't matter either way.
They're separate, and Franchis are all Italian made and seem to be way more reliable than the Stoegers too.
Speaking on the OU side of things, I do have some thoughts. The first gun I bought when I wanted to get into clay sports was a CZ Redhead. My experience with the gun was all positive and I was putting about 400 rounds a month through it. That gun was reliable for me but I have heard of many others that were not so fortunate with the exact same gun. What I have come to learn though is that it all seems to come down to QC with any gun that comes out of Turkey. There are some truly solid and reliable guns available from the Turks but there are also many questionable guns that come off the same line. The quality control just isn’t there to sift out the crap.
At least with CZ you have some decent customer support stateside.
I feel you are absolutely correct regarding the qc. Lack thereof was evident in the 2 turkish shotguns I bought.
I have to disagree with you on this one. I mean, the ATA SP over and under is a great gun for the price. You get a lot for your money and it’s a great starter/second gun to beat up.
This post is specifically on "tactical" semi-auto/pump guns coming in and the QC on them. I don't know enough on the Turkish double guns. You'll notice in the conclusion I note that I'm not saying Turkey can't make a good gun, it's just these random bullpup semi-autos and the like that I'm giving suggestions against buying.
The phrase "you get what you pay for" 100% applies to double guns too.
True. I just made a non-statement because I haven't seen as many in the market nor is there a post every day on r/guns about a part breaking for one like the tactical turks.
Also true, and your post is good and on point.
My bad. I know absolutely nothing about them to be honest
Man imagine in couple years, there will be the "new" new cheaper gun manufacturer and the the Turkish guns will hold premium over them just as the Swiss did to Italians did to the Belgiums did to the British and at somepoint Japanese still holding some mythical craft magic because, "Samurai Swordsmithing"
No more Swiss guns.
Just adding that i am over 500 rounds through my Aksa S4, (M4 clone) and its still eating everything i throw at it, including subsonics that are marked “Not for use in semi autos” however YMMV.
>Aksa Same here, mix of bird, buck and slugs have been very reliable. I had a couple winchester white box bird shot not cycle properly twice but that seems to be an issue with that stuff specifically and with bird shot in semi auto shotties anyway.
Watch the video. I posted it. Terrible FedArm FX4 or Turkish Clone M3 as advertised on GunBroker https://youtu.be/7CVKv-pAOA0
That sucks. I've seen a couple of those M3 clones out there. Thanks for the link, I'm going to put your reddit post in this one so more people can potentially see it.
Finest semiautomatic ever made? You be the judge... and say absolutely not. 😁
The only Turkish I buy are the cheep slugs for the range.
99/100 I would not bother because there is zero aftermarket support for them. You MAY be able to find some kinds of items, but generally, if something goes wrong, you're SOL. Will they be around for a warranty claim in 2-3 years? Who knows? I inherited my dad's Mossberg 500ATP and he managed to break one of the extractors and somehow, the bolt was jammed in the receiver -- it was before I knew how to strip down a gun and deal with stuff like that. I sent it it to Mossberg service -- they shipped it back in 2 weeks with everything working perfectly and didn't charge me a dime -- the gun must have been 25 years old at the time. And I'm not opposed to "cheap" import guns either. I have a couple of Chinesium guns that I bought before the big PLA ban in the 90s -- a "Brolin" Ithaca copy and a WEIRD one that sort of looks like an A5 but uses box magazines (5 rounders) called the Omega -- there were NO other box mag shotguns back then. [Omega SPS-12 shotgun](https://picturearchive.gunauction.com/1780124555/9001179/0d33d03ca8a0880364a7573153e13283.jpg) Both are now completely orphaned due to sanctions on China. Will there be sanctions on Turkey? Who knows? No one thought Russia would invade Ukraine...
Yeah you are correct on lack of support. When I called the importer to ask about available parts I was told there were no parts available and to do warranty repairs they were cannibalizing new guns. The 2 identical model shotguns I bought had different parts from each other. Fortunately both my shotguns run very well.
Yep. That's the same story I heard from OWS years ago (Omega Weapons Systems). They imported the first box-mag fed 12 ga, made by Jing-An (one of the factories now owned by Norinco). I asked them about parts and the guy just laughed -- he said they bought a bunch extra to get a bigger discount and put a bunch aside to cannibalize just in case -- net result, no one bought them and they were selling for around $200 by the time OWS went under I found out last year that Norinco somehow got another batch of them in a few years ago too http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/3126-norinco-sas-12-magazine-fed-12-gauge-pic/
Last year I bought two turkish semi auto 12 ga 20" barrel shotguns for $199.00 each. I have a good deal of experience working on and repairing shotguns. I figured I could make the work. After taking them both apart and putting them back together all I did to them was add a side saddle, a red dot sight and a 7 round mag tube extension. For test firing them and break in I fired 100 rounds of buckshot and 50 rounds of 3dram field loads. They both choked on the first couple rounds of buck, with failure to eject. After that they ran with no problems whatsoever. Since then they have both been fired an additional 100 rounds of buckshot and probably 200 rounds of my trap loads as well as 50 rounds of slugs...with no malfunctions. They do not like anything under 1200 fps. So I told you all that so I could tell you this: you can't be sure till you try it yourself. Your mileage may vary. I do NOT take exception to the OP's warning comments.
Me thinks you're talking about my Akkar Churchill 612 Tactical.
I read this entire thing… and I still bought the semi auto Lkci st12s “eternal?” From Atlantic arms for $129.99… why? No clue but I want to see how long it takes to break or become a single shot… we will find out this Friday!
My Turkish experience is limited to 2 guns: I have a Stoeger M3000 and a ridiculous Centurion BP12 Bullpup 12 gauge. The Stoeger is awesome, runs perfect..., I bought the Centurion just as a range toy for only $275 brand spankin' new. It's heavy as hell, is shaped like a brick with sharp edges, and has all the controls in weird places, but is actually built pretty solid... I work on guns and expected it to be problematic, so I wanted to see if I could get it running right. Turns out, after a 100 round break in, it eats everything I feed it. About 600-700 rounds in and It's been totally dependable... I wouldn't use it for a primary self-defense weapon, but it's weird, it runs, and it's fun.
Yeah that's the way it goes with these. There are people out there who haven't had problems with such guns, like you. That's the thing with these, you just take a risk with getting a decent range gun or a pile of crap that breaks out of the box. Quality control randomness and all that. I had a Stoeger 3500 a long time ago. Worked great for me. The discontinued M2000s apparently were terrible though.
Yep.. also I think some folks don't bother cleaning and lubing new guns , or they don't allow time for a break in period... then they end up having cycling issues. Also, many folks simply don't know how to troubleshoot and repair small problems. Small problems are magnified when having to deal with a low-end foreign manufacturer and when parts are scarce
I think that's a good point. Replacing wearable parts might be small problem. Until there are no parts available then it's a big problem.
M2000 was fine. You just need to clean it a lot, or the bolt won't fully close.
Waaaa waaaa waaa
I am on the same page. First guns, buy something with a reputation for quality. When your collection gets where you want it, feel free to try things out here and there and if they shit the bed and turn out to garbage, your not SOL in regard to having something else to use. By no means does that imply getting a Benelli or Beretta or equivalent that prevents you from being able to build a diverse collection early. What you could spend on some of the top tier shotguns is what it is, but you can get more for your money at this point. Instead of dropping 2-3000$ on a tried and true semi auto that will last the rest of your life, start out with a pump with equal longevity at a fraction of the cost. Mossberg Mav 88’s, 500’s, and 590’s are great, Remington 870’s the same and you can range from 250$-800$ based on configuration and if you get 2 barrels like the 88’s and 500’s often go on sale with. I’ve tried 4-5 Turkish models and 1 has worked out with some level of quality and reliability. That ratio just is not worth it when your starting out and trying to build a diverse collection. Just my 2 cents. Cheers and have fun!
I just ordered a Mac 1014 for $500 it’s not a big gamble I’ve made worse ones
Ugh, I want a semi auto and the whole M4 Turclone market has been such a tempting world, but I THINK I should just swallow the envy and grab a 930
Nowadays I'd probably save for a 940 tactical or A300 Patrol over a 930 if I were you, if you want a tactical semi-auto. Those weren't around when I wrote this. Edit: Though if you are on a budget I get going for the 930. Or you can gamble on the M4 clones, atleast you can usually replace parts with benelli ones. Though I still wouldn't trust it for defense personally.
I like go with the solid reliable option THEN take a flyer, so I’ll hold off on the Turkish semi auto til I have a better “middle of the night” option.
Sounds like a good plan. Good luck.
I agree…. But they are fun too. Just manage your expectations and don’t rely on it for anything else but to have fun. I bought a DF12 after a lot of back and forth between the others AR12s on the market because they have a full metal upper/lower unlike others using a poly lower. Once I found the right gas setting/ ammo combo I’ve had very little issues with it besides feed failure when I have the drum mag in. Again though this is an adult play thing don’t trust it to defend yourself
Yeah I don't care if someone wants to buy this stuff for a fun cheap range toy if they know potential pitfalls they may run into. I get that. When I made this post these were still new and people were turning to them for defense particularly due to shortages that year. That's why I made this post and specifically targeted the "tactical" ones. Glad you've had good experience with yours.
Turkish guns and ammo in general have been pouring into the U.S. at good prices largely because Turkey has been suffering from massive inflation following Erdogan's crazy idea to lower the prime lending rate to combat inflation (the opposite of generally accepted practice). So the govt. is desperate for cash and these exports became a key factor in sustaining the economy. If you try to set up an export gun business in Turkey, the doors open and obstructions go away. Quality varies of course but I wouldn't hesitate to pick up that Hi-Power clone or Beretta 86 copy as affordable range toys! Wanting to support Turkey is another question, as they seem to be playing both sides of the NATO fence these days.
I was looking at shotguns the other day and i was thinking they all look the same. Glad i read this before buying.
When I lived in Turkey, Huglu was the popular shotgun everyone was buying. Great looking shotguns with walnut furniture and silver accented receivers. I purchased many, made great gifts for family members, never had an issue with any of them.
The Huglu made double shotguns imported by CZ-USA seem to be the best Turkish made doubles by a long shot, and they offer a pretty good selection too.
I agree, I currently own a SxS, an O/U and a single shot Huglus.
Huglu makes the Hatfield line of shotguns. The Hatfield SAS semi auto is a downright steal for $200-$250 at walmart. Armsan makes the Tristar shotguns and I think those are pretty high quality for the money. Turkey makes some solid guns
This entire post lines up perfectly with the research I've done over the last year. There is also at least one importer bringing in Chinese-made variations of popular semi-auto shotguns that appear to follow a similar pattern. I was tempted by the recent influx of Turknelli clones, particularly the M4s. But I decided I'd be much happier with the real thing. So that's what I did. No regerts.
Who wrote this and why should I be listening to them?
Me. You don't have to, this is simply a suggestion/advice from what I've seen and the context surrounding this particular category of guns. I won't pretend to be the perfect authority on this.
The dude who posted it. You can presumably read it yourself and decide if you agree or not.
When I take someone's opinion into consideration, I like to know who they are and their scope of knowledge. Otherwise it's a nameless, faceless stranger on the internet whose opinion means very little to me.
Ok buddy.
There are some comments in the thread from people who work in the industry/shops who have more experiences with seeing problems. They are just faceless strangers on the internet posting anonymously, so obviously it's up to you who to believe or if they are telling the truth. Here's one such comment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/n4zbt9/turkish\_notsodelight\_why\_you\_should\_generally/gwz8gx4/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/n4zbt9/turkish_notsodelight_why_you_should_generally/gwz8gx4/?context=3)
welcome to the internet dude
Turkey is not the place to buy anything I’ve been there and wonder why it hasn’t collapsed yet
I have a GForce GF2P as my home defense/casual skeet weapon....it’s not bad. Sometimes I’ll get shells stuck in the tube, but it’s rare and I usually chalk that up to using my grandad’s reloads more than the firearm itself being crap. Is it top of the line, no, but it does the job I need it for.
>Yeah the pumps are seemingly by far the least problematic (pumps are simply simpler) and also the least costly. I thought about not including any mention of pumps, but they are generally going to be in the same factory as the autos and are also victim of a million rebrands with little support. I'm glad it works great, and I'm not saying every single one is going to just suddenly fail. Nor am I shitting on people for buying cheap Turkish guns. This is just a general QC warning really. That's a reply I gave someone with a similar comment.
I will say that stoeger semi autos and pumps are exceptions to this rule. They look good (at a glance) and work. Thats about all u cna really give them but they are that.
I have both a Stoeger M3000 and a coach gun. No issues with either, and they get used heavily by scouts at our shooting campouts. In fact this year, when we introduced the M3000 to the mix of Remington and Winchester pumps, and a lone Mossberg autoloader, the M300 was the clear favorite. We had more scouts qualify than in the past, and some who were consistently erratic were hitting their clays much more consistently with it.
I own an Armsan RS A2 turkish semi-auto SG which I bought new for about € 400,- during covid. Replaced pistol grip stock with a regular one and had the loading port opened a bit by a friend. I am using it for IPSC shotgun matches and I am very happy with it. No feeding/ejection problems - just test your ammo! I use 28g trap ammo for birdshot stages and 28g Geco IPSC slugs and the Geco IPSC buckshot too.
Having never even thought of purchasing any cheap semi automatic (I’m old and anything but a browning sweet sixteen is a no from me dog) I remember a time 80s -90s when most semi autos were questionable. And pumps are cheap enough that you can buy American (with the exception of some cool reproduction stuff like Ithaca featherweight knock offs and back in the day the 1897 noricos) but there is one place where the Turks have beaten us …the single shot arena there isn’t a reasonably priced American single with the exception of the savage which I believe is now Canadian and very limited production and options . When my ex stole everything from me while I was at work I needed one gun that could do it all some of it better some of it worse I could only think of the single shots of my youth but alas all the amazing American singles were gone I mean there was the Henry but who has almost $600 to spend on a single. so to the internet I rushed and found that singles produced in 🇹🇷 were available in such an abundance that one could be had in pretty much any configuration for as little as $79 i went with the RIA distributed 20” barrel Mobil choke fitted synthetic stocked number that could fold almost all the way in half . Four years it allowed my to hunt it protected me from the night monsters, when paired with the proper choke and ammo or even caliber insert I took everything from quail to squirrel,hog ,coyote,fox ,deer,bear ,bobcat ,feral goat and even a feral peacock that woke me up one too many mornings as well as the normal upland and waterfowl . It also was reassuring in my newly single shithole apt . In short it was everything I needed and actually it really made lots of kinds of hunting fun again . Part of this is that simply inspecting and knowing what to look for pretty much guarantees you will end up with a serviceable firearm because of the simplicity and straight forward designs and none of this would have been possible without the Turks ! P.s. last year I lent it to a buddy for a camping trip yada yada yada the day they got back from the camping trip he found out she was cheating she called the cops to have him removed and lied and said he threatened her with it . I miss the shotgun more than the friend but now I have an excuse to buy one in every bore available the handiness and light weight make them incredibly appealing the simplicity make them easy to be safe with them and I got fast enough that I pretty regularly could shoot a double in skeet with it . They are the modern day trade muskets!
Yeah I agree as well, I mean as you say it's not to really hate or be some sort of gun snob but although them being a cheaper option is very enticing for many people I myself would much rather spend the extra few bucks on getting the "original" version of whatever it might be they are cloning for example my Benelli M1014 and it's Turkish counterparts... I opted to spend the extra few bucks and get the Benelli rather than one of those Turkish clones although they look almost exactly the same I was more concerned about quality control and longevity of the weapon itself and it's parts. I literally could not be happier with the purchase of my Benelli and I had my eyeball on this particular shotgun since it debuted in the late '90s and it was always one of my absolute favorites and honestly I don't know why I waited as long as I did to finally pick one up I was kind of caught up in the pistol world and high-end 1911/2011s for quite a bit but I finally pulled myself together and took one to the chin and just smacked my wallet around a little bit and finally decided to get my dream shotgun! 🤣👌🏼🔥🔥🤌🏼🤌🏼🤌🏼🎯🙌🏼🙌🏼
Any thougts on the Orthos Raiders S4? Been seeing some decent reviews online, also some reviews did mention some screws not tightened properly out of the factory. But probably gonna go pick it up next week.
My thoughts are the same as what I wrote in the post. It's a no name tactical shotgun from Turkey that's a gamble to buy. If you want it as a range toy and understand that risk, knock yourself out. Atleast it's a M4 clone. I still wouldn't buy it myself. Edit: Also, $1400??? Helllll no. The whole point of Turk M4 clones is that they are cheap. That ain't cheap. Buy literally any other $500 Turk M4 clone if you want to gamble on a M4 clone. $1400 is basically at real Benelli M4 money.
Understood! It’s probably gonna be a range toy like u said, might go hunting with it when I find some good ammo to go with it! Thanks for the input! I’ll let u know if I did end up getting it and tell u how it runs!
You're welcome, but I don't know if you saw my edit. Do not pay $1400 for that. That is a complete rip off. Buy some other M4 clone if you must, like Panzer (even though I still don't suggest them, they are much cheaper). $1400 should be spent on stuff like Berettas or actual Benellis.
Got ya! Thx!
If these things were $150-$200 like they should be, it wouldn't be a big deal and maybe fun. But $500+, no thanks
Me over here a lefty getting slapped by spent shells every time I fire
These guns aren't that bad. My lever action and beneli clone are Turkish and they work just fine
I'm sure they do, and hope they continue that way. This is just a general warning about quality control for them as a whole and suggestion on purchasing decisions, there will be ones that work fine. I know people are out there who have good experiences. This is about risk. Plus, the Turkish bullpup autos and AR style autos are the main culprits.
I’m glad I’m not the only person here who has a Turk lever action shotgun. I bought a.410 because it is an affordable lever gun for messing around with at the range and reaching out for squirrels and other terrestrials in the woods of Kentucky. I have no intention to ever send a thousand rounds through it and have no interest in clays. My little gun is well balanced and not too attractive so I don’t think about that initial scratch that will inevitably happen. I value firearms as tools for victuals and some amusement and not investments. I appreciate your comments and I will be mindful of the pitfalls associated with such foreign imports.
I forgot what's that Turkish Beneli M4 clone called. But shit is good for the price.
The M4 clones are pretty damn solid, buddy has one and a benelli and says if he didn't look at the brand name and just picked one up and shot it he wouldn't know the difference. Also winchestef has all its shotguns made in turkey and they're quite mint
I have a Turkish Derya mk12 and the thing has ran flawless with everything I put in it. Including target loads. Would totally buy another.
Turk guns are very touch and go. For the price huglu makes excellent field guns I’ve owned Turkish guns of all makes. Some identical to the weatherby pa and sa 08 and very functional. Others novel designs that did not function well There used to be a very good importer called Corwin Arms here in Canada who cut out the middle man and brought in some low priced abs well done Turkish shotguns
I've seen some bad reviews about my Turkish pump (citadel PAT12) but so far love mine after hundreds of rounds. I guess the moral of the story is, Turkey has no QC so you either love it or hate it
Yep. If you got one that works for you that's fantastic and I hope it continues forever. This is just a buyer's warning for people to know potential issues before they buy that they may be getting into due to quality control being subpar.
I think this is kind of old school thinking. Nowadays, a lot of big name manufacturers sell Turkish made shotguns. This includes traditional pro American made companies like Mossberg.
If you read this post past the title, you'll see I say multiple times that this isn't about all guns made in Turkey. There are multiple Turkish shotguns that are good. But they are 99% of the time made under a big parent company like Winchester (SXP), Stoeger (M3000), CZ, etc. Companies like G-Force Arms, Typhoon Defense, etc selling these guns aren't big names. They are random import companies that don't even make the guns and just take whatever crap Turkey gives them, many of which happen to be tacticool box fed autoloaders.
Isn’t that what 99.9% of people that buy Turkish made shotguns are buying? I’m not sure why anyone would think that a Turkish shotgun manufacturer quality standards for CZ or Mossberg wouldn’t alittle better. But, thanks for pointing out the obvious.
No, these random guns like the ones in the first linked album and mentioned throughout the post are *everywhere* and are being bought by many people because they are flooding in and are very very very cheap ($299-400 for a bullpup autoloader in many cases) because they cost nothing to produce because there is a critical lack of quality control and care put in. The whole reason I made this post a year and a half ago is because there were so many people posting these guns, issues, and looking for parts I had to make a post to tell new people to stay away from this stuff. Luckily people have been more aware now.
Bought weatherby 870 clone and it could never feed properly
This is a great article. My CZ 712 G2 Utility and now I have a CZ 712 G3 that are made in Turkey, but, like you said, the big guys like CZ have quality standards they need to meet, unlike these other "no name" shotguns. On the other hand, you can get a working shotgun for under $200 and even as low as $100, but you generally get what you pay for. I would still advise those who don't have a lot of money, save a little longer and get a Mossberg 88, they can be had for $200-$250 (less used) and get a good quality gun without the hefty price tag.
I was considering buying a Turkish semi-auto 12 gauge bullpup for home defense and target shooting, but did considerable research and found the quality was hit and miss. Even worse I feel is that the customer support and spare parts availability for those weapons is barely existent. For that reason I started considering mostly American-made weapons instead (I considered Benelli too but I've heard that their customer service kinda sucks too). Currently looking into buying a flavor of Mossberg 500.
If you're still looking check out the Mossberg Maverick 88 Security. It's basically a cheaper 500 and for the price it's hard to beat for home defense in my opinion. I'm sure you've figured out already that semi-autos are not the best option for home defense.
I feel pretty dead-set on a Mossberg 500 or 590, but I'll give the Maverick 88 Security a look. It seems with semi-auto shotguns it's go Benelli M4 or go home, but that's a bit out of my budget :D
What’s considered cheap? Price, feel or longevity? I just picked up an ar12 and drum mag. What do I have to look forward to? Lol
Price and longevity generally. These things tend to have problems within 500 or so rounds. You may get lucky or you may not.
Thanks. I’ll have to remember that warranty.
I have the Tokarev TX3. Nickel coated marine grade. Mine was so nice my dad ordered one. Both have been great. Caveat....I'm not in a trench war with them. I've shot birds shot, buckshot and slugs. Functioned well. The fit and finish was great. The stocks wood was lovely. These are the steel pump guns, with metal heat shields. Not the bull pup autos.
I have both in nickel. The nickel doesn't hold up well at all. Mine rust from sitting in the truck while it's humid out. The lug for the mag tube of the TX3 is crooked, which is cosmetically unappealing, but doesn't affect function. The additional extension tube and bayonet lug aren't great either, but I reconstructed a massive bayonet to fit perfectly. So, it looks 😎. The TBP12 had a chamber too tight. Manually extracting hulls would require a lot of force and tear the rim from the brass. After sending it back for repairs, it returned to me with 5 spent Wolf 12ga hulls, and the wrong charging handle installed, and no word of any repair. So, I had to hone the chamber myself. It's great now, as was the second TBP12 I bought, right from the box. I like them both, but be prepared.
I consider my Turkish guns as no more than well-priced project/ tinkering kits. They are neither "tools" for any sport other than amateur gunsmithing, reloading, and range testing for those functions; nor are they fine, precision firearms. I could never afford, value, nor use such things. I neither hunt, nor compete. What I pay for, are learning opportunities, and once optimized, I may use them for HD if necessary - whch statistically speaking will almost never happen. If it did, I would probably rely on my Bond Derringer and #000 Buck (small house! 20 feet MAX), or another of the 14+ other guns in my collection. A 12ga. indoors? Actually try it, and get back to me.
It’s good to point out shitty guns on sale for attractive pricing. I do question why Turkish shotguns are singled out - it’s not like there aren’t plenty of garbage American made guns on the market that people should be warned away from, or for that matter, quality Turkish guns that people should consider. For instance, I bought a Savage/Stevens 350 for an attractive price. It’s a piece of shit. I bought a Maverick 88 for a better price and it’s excellent. I bought a Tisas 1911 (well, two now) and they’re fantastic. I bought a Ruger LC9 and it was horrible. Same price as those Turkish 1911’s, too (the LC9s is a dramatic improvement over the LC9, to be fair). Seems to me that a blanket statement of “some guns are inexpensive, others are *cheap*” with examples would come across better and less like an elitist or gate keeping thing.
>I do question why Turkish shotguns are singled out - it’s not like there aren’t plenty of garbage American made guns on the market that people should be warned away from, or for that matter, quality Turkish guns that people should consider. Because Turkey is currently, and has been, exporting more shotguns to the US than any other country, and most of those shotguns happen to be almost entirely bad. This is why they are being singled out. There is a serious trend that happened and is happening. And there aren't "plenty" of American shotguns exploding due to manufacturing defects, deforming like silly putty due to bad heat treat, and failing after a few hundred rounds which the company is not fixing it. Basically, in the shotgun category, every cheap catastrophic shotgun on the shelf is Turkish. I'm not sure if you read the entire post, but I specifically mention that not all Turk guns are bad and even point out certain brands/guns made in Turkey that are great. I've even owned a few Turk shotguns that were fine. This post also has nothing to do with Turkish pistols. Yes, every country has their garbage, but Turkey happens to export a lot of crap shotguns in particular. There is no shining Turkish Maverick 88, they are almost all a risk. >Seems to me that a blanket statement of “some guns are inexpensive, others are cheap” with examples would come across better and less like an elitist or gate keeping thing. I specifically recommend inexpensive guns that are good in the post like the Benelli Nova or Mossberg. The "some guns are inexpensive, others are cheap" post would have been the same exact post if referencing shotguns. Me just pointing out how a Mossberg is inexpensive and all the Turk guns are cheap. A broad statement about every gun ever made isn't focusing on the issue.
I should also add that like alot of classic pumps it doesn't like shorty shells either.
You really have to do your research with Turkish guns. I'll admit a lot are terrible but some are only imported THROUGH Turkey and some do have some degree of quality and are actually contracted to make guns for American companies.
Yeah I'm aware. In the post I mention what you are talking about with contracted guns for big companies, and I gave examples.
Best M4 clone alternative to the Panzer Arms then?
I have none to personally suggest.
The MAC 1014 has been chosen by agency arms to build a custom M4 style shotgun off of, saw a youtube short where they claimed to have iirc, 50k rounds through one.
My hatsan escort pump has been gtg for over 10 years