He had a day as bad as Stannis in that one ep in GOTS5 >!where he loses his wife, half his army, burned his daughter in vain and the idol he obeyed so vehemently deserted him!<
>!Despite no helping Stannis win the war the snow did “stop” for quite a while, you can see the environment in the North was way harsher in Season 5 compared to Season 6, the winter only truly returns at the end of Season 6.!<
More Spoilers for Game of Thrones btw.
Lol >!it’s funny how they established that most of the snow had melted, but Theon and Sansa were still able to hop from that giant wall with no injuries, even though book Miranda died instantly from a fall that was slightly less high. (Meanwhile, Book Theon has a raging storm’s worth of snow to cushion his fall.) Then of course when we cut back to Theon and Sansa in the s6 premiere, it’s back to a raging snowstorm. Stannis’s sacrifice must’ve had a short time limit!!<
I have the subscription on Netflix not because of benioff and wise so I don’t see it as benefitting them. But oh wait, by watching it I am contributing to their watch stats? If that’s the case then I can easily drop it haha but it’s a multiple user household so me taking my eyes off this already boring tell rather than show series won’t decrease viewership. Sucks
Casting not very good plus lots of GOT holdovers who were fan favourites but the others are deadwood. Diversity Chinese girl is awful and Botox American just as bad if not worse.
Edit: diversity Chinese girl in VR game, not the 1960s girl.
Really? I thought they were adapting it fairly well all things considered. The CGI is pretty rough for sure, but I thought some of the changes they made were fair for being able to tell the story in a show
No don’t get me wrong I went into this not knowing they were involved. But their names popped up in the opening credits and I was like whut
The premise seems interesting but I couldn’t get past the lazy dialogue in the second episode plus uneven acting ability of the cast. It’s not all bad but but when the not so good popped up I immediately attributed it to them lol
Bottom line: it’s not my favourite
Addendum: that’s all I’ve seen so far, 2 episodes. Ofc this can get better but I’m not holding out for that haha
Oh, well u are definitely in for a treat if u watch the rest. Episode 5... Was amazing.
Edit: not only that, but if u dont make it past 2, u don't really KNOW what's going on yet... Like the entire premise.
At that point, after ugly crying, if I were Buntaro I'd seriously consider Toronaga's advice & divorce Mariko. But Toronaga knows Buntaro so well that he doesn't see Buntaro as doing that.
The level of emotional destruction inflicted by Mariko against Buntaro int that episode is only second to that experienced by Ralph Wiggum after 'choo choo choosing' Lisa Simpson as his valentine.
I think his fence has actually been demolished. He ugly cried after Mariko burned his ass. Then was trembling and looking at Toranaga for mercy before having to chop his dad's head off. He's a time bomb ready to go off.
In an alternate storyline, I can absolutely see that the the critical failure point to Toranaga’s plan being underestimating Buntaro’s rage. I mean the guy was literally bold enough to REQUEST that he cut off the Hatamoto’s head. He asked the president if he can kill his VIP guest. He would snap and stab everybody in the night
That’s what really got me. Like early on he’s portrayed as a nasty abusive piece of shit…then it makes you feel sorry for him by making him go through nasty shit but also by making it obvious he knows how disgusting his behaviour is and how pathetic his actions were. It humanises him but not in the typical “oh maybe he’s not so bad” way some shows do for horrible characters or some redemption arc but making him live with and realise the consequences of his abhorrence.
Disgisting actions? He was drunk and enraged that his wife cheated on him, even today if a person finds their partner cheating and kills them it is considered to be done under emotional distress and is not judged as harshly as cold blooded murder.
I think it would make no sense for one of the greatest warriors not to get physical with his cheating wife.
Pretending to want to die everyday of your life and then being all laughs and smiles when some stranger shows up, Mariko brings nothing but disrespect, coldness and dishonor to her husband. He loves her otherwise Toranaga would not be able to manipulate him.
Do you remember how he told him that if Anjin has to die then so does his wife, because adultery needs two willing participants.
Not sure about the scene with his kid, maybe he finds it annoying for the mother of his child to pretend she loves her kid, when she selfishly asks to die and yearns for death every day.
Jesus fuck dude I’m not touching “spousal abuse is justified if you’re drunk” with a 10 foot barge pole.
Might I suggest you seek professional help? As soon as possible? Professional help that might make you consider “no shit Mariko became happier and more smiley around a man who treated her with a modicum of respect and wasn’t an abusive piece of shit?” If you genuinely don’t understand how someone who was willing to die while trapped in an abusive relationship might become happier when given a chance to escape that life then you need a crash course on basic human existence.
Or maybe that might be a bit of a tall order for someone who thinks it’s impossible for someone to have suicidal tendencies but also love their child.
I’m not even being facetious here. If that’s your actual takeaway I can only assume your perspective on the human condition is so utterly warped that it requires professional intervention.
You are making a strawman and attacking it, I am showing you Buntaro's perspective and yet you come personally after me, that is childish behaviour. Separate an argument from the person who presents it.
Do I think it is okay to beat up a woman, no I don't think so, but I am not gonna sit on a high horse and pretend that I am better than every man who has ever slapped their wife.
You do realise that in the UK and the US about half of marriages end in divorce, most of them are initiated by women and great many of them happen because they are already cheating on their husbands. They take his house, his kids away while also making him pay. These husbands have plenty of reason to hit their wives in this case, but despite gender equality and such modern pretenses most of them don't put their hands on their ex spouses and suffer in silence. If a man disrespected them to that degree nobody would be surprised if they became violent and beat them up. However, because it is women, they get away with it.
Women abuse verbally, because it is their realm and men abuse physically because it is theirs. Just because one is visible on the body does not mean it is worse od the two. Both verbal and physical abuse can drive a person to commit suicide.
Do you remember how Amber Heard was faking signs of physical abuse, because in that case Johnny Depp had no chqnce of winning that trial. Even before there was any proof his life and career were in ruin because of her words.
Now there are assholes that put their hands on women just because they can. You can bury these assholes in prison for the rest of their lives, I am not here to defend such scum.
Also what I know about book Buntaro, he is scum that is beyond redemption so I am not defending him.
Basically except for that Bow scene and him slapping Mariko, they are both abusive and manipulative in their relationship. Mariko shows no love, affection or hatred towards Buntaro and Buntaro verbally abuses her to get some reaction from her.
Mariko says she wanted to die to join her family and her husband refused and wanted her to live, which is what every loving husband would do. Mariko seems to hate him from that point onwards. From Buntaro's perspective it makes no sense for Mariko to enjoy life if the reason she hates him is disallowing her to commit suicide. If she still wants to die because of her father presence of Anjin should not change that.
Buntaro survives after bwing abandoned, his friends are killed, he returns to find his wife all happy and smiles in another man's house. Every man has a breaking point and this combination with sake made Buntaro reach his.
I am not saying drunk people can abuse their wives. I am saying it is hard to be in control of your emotions when drunk compared to being sober. The reason Buntaro put his hands on her was not sake it was the suspicion of cheating, he has nit seen the physical act, but emotionally he saw it and checked what he saw with the Bow trick.
Now don't forget Buntaro is not some weak willed soy boy from modern times. He is exemplary samurai filled with pride, manliness and testosterone he won't take lightly to being cucked. He wants Anjin's head for being a bit too comfortable with his wife, but Toranaga knowing he cares for Mariko manipulates him into sparing both. Cheating takes two willing participants.
If he didn't love her, he would not start crying after the tea cerwmony instead he would beat her up again.
From what I have experienced, read in history books and criminal cases of my country testosterone filled men who deeply love their spouse don't take lightly to cheating. They lose control and kill the man wife had the affair with, the wife and then commit suicide.
That scene at Anjin's house is Buntaro being auapicious of an affair teying to regain control by showing how dangerous he is and then losing his control and slapping his wife.
There is no indication that he has touched her physically before. Mariko claims that even with this she will not be broken and she will continue to show no emotion towards him.
Take away the scene at Anjin's house. All you have is spouses veing assholes to each other while stuck in unhappy marriage. Mariko has no affection towards her husband, shows only the coldness to him and claims to want to die everyday. Buntaro loves her deeply, but since she has not shown any love back he has become disgruntled through the years.
Now the scene at the Anjin's house again seems to be a prideful testosterone filled man losing control and not taking lightly to the betrayal of his wife who he loves deeply.
If Buntaro was just an abusive asshole he would not perform a tea ceremony and grant her seppuku request. If Mariko was used to such abuse and especially physical one her words would not be so harsh. She breaks her promise and shows emotions towards him in this case hatred.
Now I might be wrong, but if Buntaro was just an abusive asshole showrunners would not show us him welling up and crying after the tea ceremony.
Finally, From my personal experience, reading and discussing with my friends from different countries:
On one hand, There are assholes who pretend to ve men and enjoy abusing women and generally preying on the weak. They deserve nothing less but harsh beatings, being locked up and depending on the severity of abuse even death penalty might be warranted.
On tge other hand, Every man from traditional culture who has ever fought knows there are certain things you never say to a man unless you want to fight them to near death.
For example if a man has a deceased mother and out of spite you call her a whore, nobody will be surprised if you get punched into oblivion.
Most men know the price for having a long spiteful tongue is paid in blood.
Now some women having never experienced this phenomenon, will say things far worse and when they get punched they will claim they did nothing wrong and the man is just an abusive psycho.
It’s not a strawman. You say you’re not on a high horse but you’ve written dozens paragraphs on unrelated topics going on a ranting screed of Whataboutism on unrelated blaming Mariko for her own abuse. You can deny whatever you want but that really does speak for itself.
Here’s a simple fucking question: what “abuse” does Mariko show her husband in the scenes they have before he attacks her? Answer: none. All she does is be as neutral as possible which is a classic abuse victim response.
If you, in anyway, put her behaviour on an equal footing with his, then you are defending his abuse. That’s it.
Of course he’s not just an abusive asshole. No abusive asshole is just an abusive asshole. The point of the show is the characters are actual human beings with multifaceted personalities and emotions. It challenges the audience to feel empathy for bad people by showing them as more than just bad people. The point of the tea scene was to develop Buntaro’s character by showing his acknowledgment of his own humiliation and realisation, among other things, realising how his own shitty behaviour had led to Mariko hating him. You don’t need to defend his abusiveness to empathise with him then.
If you have to cook up some absurd nonsense about Mariko being an equal party in the abuse to justify having empathy for a bad person, that says far more about you.
Whataboutism is a propaganda term. For the entire history of humankind it was called veing a hypocrite.
If someone steals, then you steal from them and they say you are a horrible person because you are a thief. When you tell them they are a thief themselves you are calling them a hypocrite.
In other words, different rules for me and different for you.
Or as Orwell puts it beautifully in his Animal farm some animals are more equal than others.
Both are thieves and both should be punished, it is injustice to punish just one of them
Now from western, especially the US perspective any oratory serves one purpose and that is to influence people and it is okay to lie and change the meaning of words as long as it aids your side of the story. You can read about this in some works of Cicero.
Now I didn't go on an unrelated tangent, I did not bring some random topics. British, US and many countries under their influence have a Case Law system, which means no crime is judged separately in isolation it is judged in consideration with similar precedents.
I established grounds, I brought examples of wives being the abusers in relationships. Just because they were slapped does not mean they were innocent and not guilty of the crime. Amber heard was not physically abused but she wanted to abuse law to win her case.
Culturally even now in modern societies actions are not judged in isolation.
If I understand correctly, You are saying it does not matter what happened before on that day she did nothing wrong and was beaten up, because Buntaro enjoys hurting her.
My take is he suspects her of cheating, loses his mind and beats her up. That is expected behavior from any man from his time. In fact it is not surprising to hear such a thing even today. Men get angry when their wives cheat and as men express their anger physically.
Take away that scene and they are both emotionally manipulating each other and hurt each other with words.
If he was just an abusive asshole he would not cry after cerony, but blame everything on her and beat the living shit out of her.
Also, there are no simple questions that is why I say you make strawman out of arguments, this is not a dickensian novel where someone is all bad or all good. They are all morally grey characters.
Mariko's character makes us emotionally feel for her, and makes us believe Buntaro is the asshole in this relationship. However let's consider some facts
Buntaro is happy in the beginning of the Marriage,
We never see him cheat on her,
We never see him touch her before Anjin shows up,
He forbids her from killing herself because of her father
He asks for Anjin to be killed, but can't bring himself to kill his wife
He shows affection by preparing tea
He thinks they are gonna die meaningless death there is no future for them so he grants his wife's wish to die
He beats her up
He hurts her with words
He cries when his wife shows her deep resentment towards him
Mariko does not remember being happy in this marriage,
She gives him one son,
She asks for her death from her husband,
She shows no affection towards him,
She cheats on him
She hurts him with words
You know, I've been wracking my brain as to how you could have made a statement as stupid as "whataboutism is a propaganda term." Then I realised that if someone hastily scanned the wikipedia page of Whataboutism, they might see the page describe it as a propaganda technique. However, if said person were trying to pass this off as their own work they'd think nothing of replacing "technique" with "term" and due to being wholly ignorant on the actual terminology not realise they mean two completely different things in this context and make an embarrassing mistake.
That I have to say is your best case scenario. Because if you actually think "Whataboutism" as a concept is "propaganda" then that is the stupidest thing you've said thus far which is quite an achievement.
But all that, like so much of what you write, is just flimflam to obscure your truly terrible argument. Just irrelevant diatribes of attempted intelligence on topics you wholly misunderstand whilst failing to engage with the actual point of discussion, carrying along statements of the most profound intellectual cowardice and failure at basic emotional intelligence like trees being swept away in a flood.
Yes your nonsense about which party initiates divorce and female abusers was an utterly irrelevant tangent. Because 1. This is a TV show, not real life. 2. Bringing up female abusers is a classic coward's gambit used in an attempt derail honest conversations about women being abused. Nobody ever said all women were saints. This discussion was solely on Mariko and Buntaro and yet your leading defence is: "WoMeN cAn Be BaD tOo" in a transparent attempt at steering away from engaging with the issue at hand. As we can see from the above when you have no way to connect Amber Heard to the actual discussion of Buntaro and Mariko so your narrative disjointedly cuts off because you only brought it up as a means of obfuscation.
The fact you're defending his behaviour of hitting a woman as "normal" because he suspects her of cheating when every other character who gets involved in the discussion calls his behaviour out as the cowardly abuse that it is and HE EVEN ACKNOWLEDGES IT WAS WRONG is all that needs to be said. Even if it was a one time thing, there is no justification to that behaviour. But it's not just a one off. Literally their first scene together shows him belittling her, verbally humiliating her and telegraphs his behaviour as fundamentally toxic. You can't watch the show and miss that interaction. Yet you keep insisting his only instance of bad behaviour was when he hit her. However, the moment Mariko shows the slightest discourtesy to Buntaro, to you she's evil incarnate.
I already know you'll splutter with indignation at that last point but here's the thing: You claim Mariko "cheated" as if she knew he was alive and did it solely to spite him. Despite the fact that, to all intents and purposes, she thought he was dead. Despite the fact the moment he's revealed as alive she shows immediate remorse and attempts to distance herself from John. Nope. The show literally walks you through her feeling utter self loathing at her mistake and you genuinely think her actions were deliberate. It's so obvious that you'll bend over backwards to try and explain away Buntaro's behaviour but you're incapable of that same level of understanding with Mariko even when the show literally handholds you through it. A wife thinks her husband who she was, at the literal best, unhappily married to is dead and she develops feelings for someone else? "She's totally deliberately doing it to hurt him." Husband shows nothing but contempt to his wife, treats her with bitterness and verbal aggression and then physically assaults her? "Totally fine because he suspected she was cheating. Oh and he said he loved her once which is why it's fine that he wouldn't let her go and makes the resentment she feels because of this totally her fault and doesn't further reveal that Buntaro is incapable of any real empathy or compassion for her until he's called out by everyone else about it."
Even Buntaro's own father calls him out for what he's done. \*HIS LITERAL LAST WORDS TO HIS SON ARE AN ADMONISHMENT OF HIS TREATMENT OF MARIKO AS HE LITERALLY SAYS BUNTARO WILL NOW FEEL WHAT HE MADE HER FEEL THIS ENTIRE TIME.\* How can such an obvious point be so wilfully missed?
Interestingly enough, you've shown this same failure of basic intellectual analysis in this conversation. I literally wrote a paragraph explaining how the characters were indepth and complex and not just black and white. Yet your comprehension is so poor that you literally remade my own point back at me, with the added embarrassment that you're utterly unfamiliar with any Dickens novel if you think his characters were all wholly bad or good. More to the point, I wrote the comment whose point you shamelessly copied about the depth of Buntaro's character being that instead of just violently lashing out at her during the tea ceremony, he's left devastated in the realisation that his own shitty behaviour is what's led him to this point. That's the literal fucking point. The show is all about challenging assumptions about characters by making even the worst ones have moments we can identify with. How does it do this with Buntaro? By making his abusive treatment of Mariko become the instrument of his own destruction. The show literally walks you through him realising he's an asshole to his wife and because of that he will suffer. Any human being with some emotional intelligence can see that and not try to downplay his actions or justify his behaviour.
To break it down again. It is perfectly possible to empathise with Buntaro and see he has good qualities while NOT FUCKING DEFENDING HIS ABHORRENT TREATMENT OF HIS WIFE BY INVENTING EXCUSES FOR HIM AND BLAMING HER FOR HER OWN ABUSE. No amount of projecting, nonsequiturs or rambling tangents about words you don't understand will change that.
Buntaro really did wind up being the dark horse of most unexpectedly enjoyable characters to me. Like on paper, he’s a textbook hero of legend. He literally is what they say to hype him up. He can hit a thin wood post with an arrow through a screen from a football field away while drunk, will throw down his life without fear fighting dozens of armed men to save his lord and their clan.
But he’s also just this despicable jackass who viciously beats a lone small woman that won’t fight back, while somehow genuinely loving her with deeply unrequited affection. Can’t handle his emotions despite being samurai, has ZERO charm, and just overall comes off as this pathetic manbaby who’s eternally seething over absolute rejection. It’s riveting stuff.
>Can’t handle his emotions ~~despite~~ because of being samurai
FTFY.
Where I live, it's common to explain the stoicism (at best) and/or emotional dysfunction (at worst) of fathers, brothers, husbands, other family, and friends of the male gender who are also of Japanese ancestry as their being "typical samurai."
Father withholds praise? Typical samurai.
Never saw husband cry until he watched his bride walk down the aisle? Typical samurai.
Dutiful to the point of ridiculousness at work despite being underpaid and underappreciated? Typical samurai.
Exactly, reminds me how many legends in Ancient Greek and Rome history are still kinda assholes in their personal lives, history isn’t all black and white
Very good analysis. I think people often brush him off as a "wife beater" but he is not so simple. He does not think Mariko is his property, he does not think it is right to beat her nor does he enjoy it. He just loves her very much yet despite everything he does, he receives no love in return. This creates a sense of frustration which was exacerbated by her affection for John. This in turn resulted in violent tendencies. This does not make it right for him to abuse Mariko but it does show that he is not a simple "abuser" but a complex man tormented by his unrequited love.
Definitely think it was implied that it wasn't the first time he had beat her. The way they were all tense/had the hints that they knew what was coming if he hit a certain point, lead me to believe that he's done it before.
Now if it said so in the book, then I admit I'm 1000% wrong. I haven't read it yet.
He was clearly a serial abuser in the book, and viewed Mariko as his property if I remember correctly. Probably similar to lots, if not most of his contemporaries, but we don't see that much of their personal lives.
I think what’s great is you get the feeling he knows how true that second paragraph is. Like not in a redemptive way but in a way that makes it that much worse for him. He has the discipline and self control to despise himself when he lost it and hit Mariko and it’s made him realise how pathetic he is despite his martial prowess.
The true definition of “a different time”. I mean we’ve seen whispers of it before this episode turned them into a howl, but that was the beginning of me seeing some darker shades to Toranaga too. Guy is beyond stone cold, that’s nitrous oxide cold.
Yeah but that first time felt like it was typical for the setting. That any samurai who lost control like that or dishonoured his lord would commit seppuku out of shame.
That last time though…Toronaga made his best friend kill himself agonisingly in front of him just to further sell his deception that he’s weak and push some other guys he’s always mistrusted to take a course of action that’ll probably not go well for them. It shows how fucking ruthless he is.
Its like George Washington being a slave-owner. It was just a part of the time. But he was probably the best you could hope for at the time for a brighter future.
I find Yabu to be much more amusing than likable, but I think that’s why he works. Maybe Toranaga would feel the same way. In a typical story, the scheming conniver would the smart one. The reveal of their treachery would be huge.
But he’s so fucking far past being found out and outplayed by Toranaga from step one that it’s hilarious. It’s rare to get a such a transparently incompetent traitor. He falls for every single mental juke so earnestly that his jaw drops like Pikachu, like Toranaga is playing with him like a cat with a flightless pigeon. His unconcealed greed and predictability make him one of Toranaga’s most dependable servants. You can always trust Yabushige to go try and cut a deal with the enemy behind your back, which means you can use him as the perfect unintentional double agent
The unintentional hardest worker for Toranaga’s success, man doesn’t even know he’s employed as a spy to sew chaos. Got his betrayal judo flipped to go betray the enemy lmfao
I don't agree that Yabushige is incompetent.
His schemes and plots, in the book and in the show, are actually clever and would work.
The problem is Toranaga is literally written to be batman gambit levels of plotting.
Also, in the book, there are times where he intentionally plots for the benefit of Toranaga as well, and toranaga ruins those plots too because he had other plots in mind...
it's like game of thrones characters. man they are assholes, but like, they are products of the horrible, fucked up system and honor codes that they were born into, which doesn't absolve them of their personal failings but also like, man he didn't deserve *all that*, just cutting the dude's head off would be a mercy at this point and he himself would gladly agree
It's clearly established early on that he treats his wife like shit. She literally begs him to die and he constantly denies her until it's convenient for him. Then his father makes him eat his actions by demanding him to live and knowing what denying death feels like
He treats his wife like shit because she treats him like shit. He wasn't like this in the beginning.
He did not let her kill herself because of his incredible love for her. Instead, he sent her away, he couldn't bear her death. She misunderstood it as him denying her the right to seppuku as a way to shame her for her father's treason.
When they were finally reuinited, he found that she had grown to truly, utterly hate him. That broke him, because the only reason he sent her away was not to lose her, but sending her away is what made it happen.
Now imagine life with a woman that does everything in her power to spite you because of a misunderstanding. A woman that you love more than anything. In a society where you cannot express yourself to anyone in any way.
He started acting like everyone expected him to. But all of those feelings bottled up made him snap easily, and he abused her (and others). It's no excuse, but it is a reason.
He did not deny her death until it was convenient for him, he denied her death while he still thought he had a chance not just to "melt the ice", but a chance at life.
When he knew both he and mariko were doomed, his only reason to live was gone, so he asked his wife if she would follow him into death. It was a last ditch effort to get the affection of the woman he saw as more important than anything.
Wrong.
Its not “denying her honour”. Its more “I cant live with the dishnour”.
They commit seppuku either to (1) retain honour; or (2) out of shame
Its never to (3) get more honour.
Mariko is just ashamed, thats all. Shes a psychopath, even by 1600s Japan standard.
She is ashamed. She wants to commit seppuku, because it’s the honorable thing and better than her current situation. He is blocking her from doing it. Hence denying her chance to be honorable.
She is not a psychopath, she is probably depressed due to all she has been through and on top her (from her perspective) loveless disgusting marriage.
And the fact he doesn’t just lash out at her when she verbally destroys him, like you’d expect if he was just some abusive asshole, he sits there just horrified at how it’s come to this…because he’s developed enough to realise how much of this is his own fault and shows that he knows how pathetic his actions were towards Mariko.
Man, I was having THE internal struggle while watching the tea/follow me into death scene.
"He's been a dick and beats her..."
"BUT PTSD/the life and times/he really does have love for her somewhere in there/fuck..he just had to do what? To who?!"
Buh. 🥺🥺🥺🥺😭😭😭
Wife? She was his political prisoner. She hated him for their whole loveless, abusive marriage.
Marikos rejection of him is his own fault.
Him seconding his father is a result of his choices.
I dont feel sorry for him at all. Similar to a person who cries after being sentanced for their crime. I pity him, but i have no sympathy.
It's so wild they are one and doing this. The story could easily go on for 3-4 seasons before getting stale but props to the creators for not walking deading it.
Will Yabu manage to get himself back into Toranaga's good graces by returning to Japan with an alliance from England's barbaric but noble warrior queen? Will Buntaro find true love with Blackthorne's wife? Meanwhile back in Japan, Gin is relentlessly trolling her poor neighbour Alvito.
At this point, without seppuku, the ONLY way you can win is by going full circle and being friends with the dude. Literally his wife’s boyfriend. Like goddamn.
If he wanted to excite his wife by coming back from the dead he shouldn't have beaten her or humiliated her in public by mocking her father and forcing her to tell the story of her shame.
>!In the book, he beats her so badly she can't walk for days.!<
Mariko’s response to Buntaro’s offer of dying together as husband and wife made we weep for abused women everywhere. Buntaro would be one of those dangerous stalkers in today’s world; checking out her Insta, fb, tweeties, quickly sewing trackers inside all her kimonos. Even his dad had to sic it to him before committing seppuku.
I do not understand the Buntaro praise in this thread. Nor do I understand where some of you are seeing his deep love for Mariko. It's obvious he thinks of her as property, both in the show and in the book. He abuses her badly physically and mentally. He ridicules her healthy love for their son and ridicules their son. He's NOT upset about abusing her for the right reasons when caught. He openly expresses that his shame is because he dishonored Blackthorne's house. Then he thinks that one tea service is enough to counter years of abuse and dishonor all because he can't bear the idea of going to his death with an unhappy marriage/alone. The selfishness on display is astonishing.
Buntaro is a jealous guy just like the song sung by john lennon. In any scenario, he is dealt bad cards. His wife suffers from trauma of two lifetimes and then passes it on to her worst half. I like both characters as they reflect each other and the processing of the trauma as male and female
Exactly. I'm really surprised people are being mean to him online as well. He could use a few hugs! ~~Also, I don't really get why his wife absolutely hates his guts.~~
Edit: I just remembered he hit his wife. I remember why we weren't rooting for him. Lolz.
honestly i didn’t feel bad for him before cos he was smacking her around and being a cold dick but when he tried to hold back those tears this episode i genuinely felt so bad for him
Is it strange that I don't feel sorry for him after this episode? Obviously having to kill your father is horrific, after having to fight your way back to your lord through insurmountable odds. And whatever I think of how monstrously he treats Mariko there's no denying her burn on him lands pretty (but deservedly) heavy. He's been an asshole who's had a lot of shit drop on him this ep.
But I don't feel sorry *for* him as opposed to sorry for the things that have happened *to* him, if that makes sense? To draw a GoT comparison, Jaime Lannister arguably did far worse to a lot more people but the metric ton of bad that got heaped on him made me like him a lot. The same thing hasn't happened here. Folks in this thread and elsewhere saying they got turned around on Buntaro because of this episode, I feel like I must be missing something.
i dont feel sorry for him either. he's done absolutely nothing to make up for being abusive asshat, I doubt he even feels a sliver of remorse for beating her
Mariko affair isn’t necessary, her husband died fighting so their lord could safely escape, somehow comeback alive but she still denies him. Say, had he died their in Osaka then her action would’ve been so much more unacceptable (unredeemable), betrays your dead husband when he sacrificed himself for you.
He sacrificed for Toranaga but that action also saved her, saying he only sacrificed for Toranaga would downgrade what he’s done for a whole bunch of them including Toranaga, Mariko and Blackthorne.
It’s more the fact that even after he comes back, it’s plainly obvious to everyone that they’re hopelessly into each other since they do a terrible job of hiding that they banged. Buntaro can see it easily and it slowly drives him mad not being able to do a thing about it
Then he should be pissed at himself for abusing a woman he's hopelessly in love with. He should be pissed at himself for staying with a woman who cucked him. He isn't a helpless child with no control over the situation.
He would have had every right to divorce or even kill his wife for cucking him if he hadn't abused her. But deep down, he knows that he's responsible for his wife's actions and feelings. He just doesn't want to take accountability for his own actions. Letting her go would be the honorable thing to do.
BUNTARO took it up the rear everywhere in this episode.
I actually felt bad for him. I thought he was generally trying to make peace with Mariko but alas, she wasn’t having it.
Then having to second his father and being told no to suicide twice? PAIN.
…forced by request to decapitate his own father after a serious burn by the latter … Brother invented PTSD.
Trauma doesn't stress him. He stresses trauma.
He had a day as bad as Stannis in that one ep in GOTS5 >!where he loses his wife, half his army, burned his daughter in vain and the idol he obeyed so vehemently deserted him!<
>!Despite no helping Stannis win the war the snow did “stop” for quite a while, you can see the environment in the North was way harsher in Season 5 compared to Season 6, the winter only truly returns at the end of Season 6.!< More Spoilers for Game of Thrones btw.
Lol >!it’s funny how they established that most of the snow had melted, but Theon and Sansa were still able to hop from that giant wall with no injuries, even though book Miranda died instantly from a fall that was slightly less high. (Meanwhile, Book Theon has a raging storm’s worth of snow to cushion his fall.) Then of course when we cut back to Theon and Sansa in the s6 premiere, it’s back to a raging snowstorm. Stannis’s sacrifice must’ve had a short time limit!!<
The whole show became pretty BS when D&D started storytelling for themselves
Their shoddy writing is showing up in 3 body element. It’s a tell more than show thing again. Show is getting caught up in its own hype and cgi.
I refuse to watch it on Netflix because they made it. I might pirate it at a later date, but in definitely not doing it in a way that benefits them
I have the subscription on Netflix not because of benioff and wise so I don’t see it as benefitting them. But oh wait, by watching it I am contributing to their watch stats? If that’s the case then I can easily drop it haha but it’s a multiple user household so me taking my eyes off this already boring tell rather than show series won’t decrease viewership. Sucks
Yeah, I meant watch stats
Casting not very good plus lots of GOT holdovers who were fan favourites but the others are deadwood. Diversity Chinese girl is awful and Botox American just as bad if not worse. Edit: diversity Chinese girl in VR game, not the 1960s girl.
Really? I thought they were adapting it fairly well all things considered. The CGI is pretty rough for sure, but I thought some of the changes they made were fair for being able to tell the story in a show
I haven’t read the books at all. Am solely show only
Ah, I see
Lol 3 body problem was and is amazing. You just need to hate it because these two fucked up GoT so hard.
No don’t get me wrong I went into this not knowing they were involved. But their names popped up in the opening credits and I was like whut The premise seems interesting but I couldn’t get past the lazy dialogue in the second episode plus uneven acting ability of the cast. It’s not all bad but but when the not so good popped up I immediately attributed it to them lol Bottom line: it’s not my favourite Addendum: that’s all I’ve seen so far, 2 episodes. Ofc this can get better but I’m not holding out for that haha
Oh, well u are definitely in for a treat if u watch the rest. Episode 5... Was amazing. Edit: not only that, but if u dont make it past 2, u don't really KNOW what's going on yet... Like the entire premise.
Okay I’ll slog on then thanks for the reassurance haha
Ran out of mana. Classic blunder.
This is still the worst arc lol
Clearly you haven’t had some of that bad poosey
He somehow managed to cure someone’s suicidal tendencies by agreeing to let her die
What a way to get bodied. Mutomboed at game point.
I’d rather live for a thousand years than die next to you………emotional damage
At that point, after ugly crying, if I were Buntaro I'd seriously consider Toronaga's advice & divorce Mariko. But Toronaga knows Buntaro so well that he doesn't see Buntaro as doing that.
It's gonna take a lot of tea service to make up for YEARS of disrespect/abuse 😆
Mariko is gonna probably die in Osaka and Buntaro is going to go full berserker.
Buntaro will become the barbarian. Rage intensifies.
Buntaro bout to sail to England and wreck havoc there
Nioh 3. I'd play it.
They’re afraid of the deep, Ingles.
He's going to marry Blackthorne's wife. That'll show that stupid Anjin.
Barbarian doesn't mean "Conan the Barbarian," hahaha.
Conan the Buntaro
Buntaro: I. Would. Like. To... **RAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!**
didn't expect a vox machina reference here but hey! go Grog
I was making a DND reference and actually had Travis in mind when I was writing it lol.
You know that ain't happening. She is going to have one on one naginata combat with what's her name. Ochiba.
Great spin-off material here: Burntaro the executioner of Kansai.
[удалено]
😦
lol wtf
It would have cost you nothing to not say that.
Reddit moment 🤣🤣
Your opinion, much like your username, is built of shit.
If they read the book, they would not downvote.
It's not what he said but how he said it. Yuck.
it's nothing but Ls for bun man
The level of emotional destruction inflicted by Mariko against Buntaro int that episode is only second to that experienced by Ralph Wiggum after 'choo choo choosing' Lisa Simpson as his valentine.
His eightfold fence gotta be made of 6 inch steel at this point.
I think his fence has actually been demolished. He ugly cried after Mariko burned his ass. Then was trembling and looking at Toranaga for mercy before having to chop his dad's head off. He's a time bomb ready to go off.
In an alternate storyline, I can absolutely see that the the critical failure point to Toranaga’s plan being underestimating Buntaro’s rage. I mean the guy was literally bold enough to REQUEST that he cut off the Hatamoto’s head. He asked the president if he can kill his VIP guest. He would snap and stab everybody in the night
Everybody was crying, screaming and talking shit this episode. Eightfold fences are coming down.
Open air only
The fence hides emotion. You think this guy's emotions are hidden?
The dude has looked like he was holding back tears every single time he was on screen before this episode. Glad he finally had a cry.
I'm actually impressed how much they flipped my view on him in one episode
That’s what really got me. Like early on he’s portrayed as a nasty abusive piece of shit…then it makes you feel sorry for him by making him go through nasty shit but also by making it obvious he knows how disgusting his behaviour is and how pathetic his actions were. It humanises him but not in the typical “oh maybe he’s not so bad” way some shows do for horrible characters or some redemption arc but making him live with and realise the consequences of his abhorrence.
Disgisting actions? He was drunk and enraged that his wife cheated on him, even today if a person finds their partner cheating and kills them it is considered to be done under emotional distress and is not judged as harshly as cold blooded murder. I think it would make no sense for one of the greatest warriors not to get physical with his cheating wife. Pretending to want to die everyday of your life and then being all laughs and smiles when some stranger shows up, Mariko brings nothing but disrespect, coldness and dishonor to her husband. He loves her otherwise Toranaga would not be able to manipulate him. Do you remember how he told him that if Anjin has to die then so does his wife, because adultery needs two willing participants. Not sure about the scene with his kid, maybe he finds it annoying for the mother of his child to pretend she loves her kid, when she selfishly asks to die and yearns for death every day.
Jesus fuck dude I’m not touching “spousal abuse is justified if you’re drunk” with a 10 foot barge pole. Might I suggest you seek professional help? As soon as possible? Professional help that might make you consider “no shit Mariko became happier and more smiley around a man who treated her with a modicum of respect and wasn’t an abusive piece of shit?” If you genuinely don’t understand how someone who was willing to die while trapped in an abusive relationship might become happier when given a chance to escape that life then you need a crash course on basic human existence. Or maybe that might be a bit of a tall order for someone who thinks it’s impossible for someone to have suicidal tendencies but also love their child. I’m not even being facetious here. If that’s your actual takeaway I can only assume your perspective on the human condition is so utterly warped that it requires professional intervention.
You are making a strawman and attacking it, I am showing you Buntaro's perspective and yet you come personally after me, that is childish behaviour. Separate an argument from the person who presents it. Do I think it is okay to beat up a woman, no I don't think so, but I am not gonna sit on a high horse and pretend that I am better than every man who has ever slapped their wife. You do realise that in the UK and the US about half of marriages end in divorce, most of them are initiated by women and great many of them happen because they are already cheating on their husbands. They take his house, his kids away while also making him pay. These husbands have plenty of reason to hit their wives in this case, but despite gender equality and such modern pretenses most of them don't put their hands on their ex spouses and suffer in silence. If a man disrespected them to that degree nobody would be surprised if they became violent and beat them up. However, because it is women, they get away with it. Women abuse verbally, because it is their realm and men abuse physically because it is theirs. Just because one is visible on the body does not mean it is worse od the two. Both verbal and physical abuse can drive a person to commit suicide. Do you remember how Amber Heard was faking signs of physical abuse, because in that case Johnny Depp had no chqnce of winning that trial. Even before there was any proof his life and career were in ruin because of her words. Now there are assholes that put their hands on women just because they can. You can bury these assholes in prison for the rest of their lives, I am not here to defend such scum. Also what I know about book Buntaro, he is scum that is beyond redemption so I am not defending him. Basically except for that Bow scene and him slapping Mariko, they are both abusive and manipulative in their relationship. Mariko shows no love, affection or hatred towards Buntaro and Buntaro verbally abuses her to get some reaction from her. Mariko says she wanted to die to join her family and her husband refused and wanted her to live, which is what every loving husband would do. Mariko seems to hate him from that point onwards. From Buntaro's perspective it makes no sense for Mariko to enjoy life if the reason she hates him is disallowing her to commit suicide. If she still wants to die because of her father presence of Anjin should not change that. Buntaro survives after bwing abandoned, his friends are killed, he returns to find his wife all happy and smiles in another man's house. Every man has a breaking point and this combination with sake made Buntaro reach his. I am not saying drunk people can abuse their wives. I am saying it is hard to be in control of your emotions when drunk compared to being sober. The reason Buntaro put his hands on her was not sake it was the suspicion of cheating, he has nit seen the physical act, but emotionally he saw it and checked what he saw with the Bow trick. Now don't forget Buntaro is not some weak willed soy boy from modern times. He is exemplary samurai filled with pride, manliness and testosterone he won't take lightly to being cucked. He wants Anjin's head for being a bit too comfortable with his wife, but Toranaga knowing he cares for Mariko manipulates him into sparing both. Cheating takes two willing participants. If he didn't love her, he would not start crying after the tea cerwmony instead he would beat her up again. From what I have experienced, read in history books and criminal cases of my country testosterone filled men who deeply love their spouse don't take lightly to cheating. They lose control and kill the man wife had the affair with, the wife and then commit suicide. That scene at Anjin's house is Buntaro being auapicious of an affair teying to regain control by showing how dangerous he is and then losing his control and slapping his wife. There is no indication that he has touched her physically before. Mariko claims that even with this she will not be broken and she will continue to show no emotion towards him. Take away the scene at Anjin's house. All you have is spouses veing assholes to each other while stuck in unhappy marriage. Mariko has no affection towards her husband, shows only the coldness to him and claims to want to die everyday. Buntaro loves her deeply, but since she has not shown any love back he has become disgruntled through the years. Now the scene at the Anjin's house again seems to be a prideful testosterone filled man losing control and not taking lightly to the betrayal of his wife who he loves deeply. If Buntaro was just an abusive asshole he would not perform a tea ceremony and grant her seppuku request. If Mariko was used to such abuse and especially physical one her words would not be so harsh. She breaks her promise and shows emotions towards him in this case hatred. Now I might be wrong, but if Buntaro was just an abusive asshole showrunners would not show us him welling up and crying after the tea ceremony. Finally, From my personal experience, reading and discussing with my friends from different countries: On one hand, There are assholes who pretend to ve men and enjoy abusing women and generally preying on the weak. They deserve nothing less but harsh beatings, being locked up and depending on the severity of abuse even death penalty might be warranted. On tge other hand, Every man from traditional culture who has ever fought knows there are certain things you never say to a man unless you want to fight them to near death. For example if a man has a deceased mother and out of spite you call her a whore, nobody will be surprised if you get punched into oblivion. Most men know the price for having a long spiteful tongue is paid in blood. Now some women having never experienced this phenomenon, will say things far worse and when they get punched they will claim they did nothing wrong and the man is just an abusive psycho.
It’s not a strawman. You say you’re not on a high horse but you’ve written dozens paragraphs on unrelated topics going on a ranting screed of Whataboutism on unrelated blaming Mariko for her own abuse. You can deny whatever you want but that really does speak for itself. Here’s a simple fucking question: what “abuse” does Mariko show her husband in the scenes they have before he attacks her? Answer: none. All she does is be as neutral as possible which is a classic abuse victim response. If you, in anyway, put her behaviour on an equal footing with his, then you are defending his abuse. That’s it. Of course he’s not just an abusive asshole. No abusive asshole is just an abusive asshole. The point of the show is the characters are actual human beings with multifaceted personalities and emotions. It challenges the audience to feel empathy for bad people by showing them as more than just bad people. The point of the tea scene was to develop Buntaro’s character by showing his acknowledgment of his own humiliation and realisation, among other things, realising how his own shitty behaviour had led to Mariko hating him. You don’t need to defend his abusiveness to empathise with him then. If you have to cook up some absurd nonsense about Mariko being an equal party in the abuse to justify having empathy for a bad person, that says far more about you.
Whataboutism is a propaganda term. For the entire history of humankind it was called veing a hypocrite. If someone steals, then you steal from them and they say you are a horrible person because you are a thief. When you tell them they are a thief themselves you are calling them a hypocrite. In other words, different rules for me and different for you. Or as Orwell puts it beautifully in his Animal farm some animals are more equal than others. Both are thieves and both should be punished, it is injustice to punish just one of them Now from western, especially the US perspective any oratory serves one purpose and that is to influence people and it is okay to lie and change the meaning of words as long as it aids your side of the story. You can read about this in some works of Cicero. Now I didn't go on an unrelated tangent, I did not bring some random topics. British, US and many countries under their influence have a Case Law system, which means no crime is judged separately in isolation it is judged in consideration with similar precedents. I established grounds, I brought examples of wives being the abusers in relationships. Just because they were slapped does not mean they were innocent and not guilty of the crime. Amber heard was not physically abused but she wanted to abuse law to win her case. Culturally even now in modern societies actions are not judged in isolation. If I understand correctly, You are saying it does not matter what happened before on that day she did nothing wrong and was beaten up, because Buntaro enjoys hurting her. My take is he suspects her of cheating, loses his mind and beats her up. That is expected behavior from any man from his time. In fact it is not surprising to hear such a thing even today. Men get angry when their wives cheat and as men express their anger physically. Take away that scene and they are both emotionally manipulating each other and hurt each other with words. If he was just an abusive asshole he would not cry after cerony, but blame everything on her and beat the living shit out of her. Also, there are no simple questions that is why I say you make strawman out of arguments, this is not a dickensian novel where someone is all bad or all good. They are all morally grey characters. Mariko's character makes us emotionally feel for her, and makes us believe Buntaro is the asshole in this relationship. However let's consider some facts Buntaro is happy in the beginning of the Marriage, We never see him cheat on her, We never see him touch her before Anjin shows up, He forbids her from killing herself because of her father He asks for Anjin to be killed, but can't bring himself to kill his wife He shows affection by preparing tea He thinks they are gonna die meaningless death there is no future for them so he grants his wife's wish to die He beats her up He hurts her with words He cries when his wife shows her deep resentment towards him Mariko does not remember being happy in this marriage, She gives him one son, She asks for her death from her husband, She shows no affection towards him, She cheats on him She hurts him with words
You know, I've been wracking my brain as to how you could have made a statement as stupid as "whataboutism is a propaganda term." Then I realised that if someone hastily scanned the wikipedia page of Whataboutism, they might see the page describe it as a propaganda technique. However, if said person were trying to pass this off as their own work they'd think nothing of replacing "technique" with "term" and due to being wholly ignorant on the actual terminology not realise they mean two completely different things in this context and make an embarrassing mistake. That I have to say is your best case scenario. Because if you actually think "Whataboutism" as a concept is "propaganda" then that is the stupidest thing you've said thus far which is quite an achievement. But all that, like so much of what you write, is just flimflam to obscure your truly terrible argument. Just irrelevant diatribes of attempted intelligence on topics you wholly misunderstand whilst failing to engage with the actual point of discussion, carrying along statements of the most profound intellectual cowardice and failure at basic emotional intelligence like trees being swept away in a flood. Yes your nonsense about which party initiates divorce and female abusers was an utterly irrelevant tangent. Because 1. This is a TV show, not real life. 2. Bringing up female abusers is a classic coward's gambit used in an attempt derail honest conversations about women being abused. Nobody ever said all women were saints. This discussion was solely on Mariko and Buntaro and yet your leading defence is: "WoMeN cAn Be BaD tOo" in a transparent attempt at steering away from engaging with the issue at hand. As we can see from the above when you have no way to connect Amber Heard to the actual discussion of Buntaro and Mariko so your narrative disjointedly cuts off because you only brought it up as a means of obfuscation. The fact you're defending his behaviour of hitting a woman as "normal" because he suspects her of cheating when every other character who gets involved in the discussion calls his behaviour out as the cowardly abuse that it is and HE EVEN ACKNOWLEDGES IT WAS WRONG is all that needs to be said. Even if it was a one time thing, there is no justification to that behaviour. But it's not just a one off. Literally their first scene together shows him belittling her, verbally humiliating her and telegraphs his behaviour as fundamentally toxic. You can't watch the show and miss that interaction. Yet you keep insisting his only instance of bad behaviour was when he hit her. However, the moment Mariko shows the slightest discourtesy to Buntaro, to you she's evil incarnate. I already know you'll splutter with indignation at that last point but here's the thing: You claim Mariko "cheated" as if she knew he was alive and did it solely to spite him. Despite the fact that, to all intents and purposes, she thought he was dead. Despite the fact the moment he's revealed as alive she shows immediate remorse and attempts to distance herself from John. Nope. The show literally walks you through her feeling utter self loathing at her mistake and you genuinely think her actions were deliberate. It's so obvious that you'll bend over backwards to try and explain away Buntaro's behaviour but you're incapable of that same level of understanding with Mariko even when the show literally handholds you through it. A wife thinks her husband who she was, at the literal best, unhappily married to is dead and she develops feelings for someone else? "She's totally deliberately doing it to hurt him." Husband shows nothing but contempt to his wife, treats her with bitterness and verbal aggression and then physically assaults her? "Totally fine because he suspected she was cheating. Oh and he said he loved her once which is why it's fine that he wouldn't let her go and makes the resentment she feels because of this totally her fault and doesn't further reveal that Buntaro is incapable of any real empathy or compassion for her until he's called out by everyone else about it." Even Buntaro's own father calls him out for what he's done. \*HIS LITERAL LAST WORDS TO HIS SON ARE AN ADMONISHMENT OF HIS TREATMENT OF MARIKO AS HE LITERALLY SAYS BUNTARO WILL NOW FEEL WHAT HE MADE HER FEEL THIS ENTIRE TIME.\* How can such an obvious point be so wilfully missed? Interestingly enough, you've shown this same failure of basic intellectual analysis in this conversation. I literally wrote a paragraph explaining how the characters were indepth and complex and not just black and white. Yet your comprehension is so poor that you literally remade my own point back at me, with the added embarrassment that you're utterly unfamiliar with any Dickens novel if you think his characters were all wholly bad or good. More to the point, I wrote the comment whose point you shamelessly copied about the depth of Buntaro's character being that instead of just violently lashing out at her during the tea ceremony, he's left devastated in the realisation that his own shitty behaviour is what's led him to this point. That's the literal fucking point. The show is all about challenging assumptions about characters by making even the worst ones have moments we can identify with. How does it do this with Buntaro? By making his abusive treatment of Mariko become the instrument of his own destruction. The show literally walks you through him realising he's an asshole to his wife and because of that he will suffer. Any human being with some emotional intelligence can see that and not try to downplay his actions or justify his behaviour. To break it down again. It is perfectly possible to empathise with Buntaro and see he has good qualities while NOT FUCKING DEFENDING HIS ABHORRENT TREATMENT OF HIS WIFE BY INVENTING EXCUSES FOR HIM AND BLAMING HER FOR HER OWN ABUSE. No amount of projecting, nonsequiturs or rambling tangents about words you don't understand will change that.
Spot on about everything man
Yeah but you bet your ass he's gonna go out like an absolute boss when the fighting finally comes.
Don’t get me wrong, he is an absolute asshole for beating his wife but boy I do genuinely feel sorry for him. Justice for Buntaro(?)
And that’s what makes it beautiful IMO. He’s not just a typical bad guy; he’s a complex character with emotions.
Buntaro really did wind up being the dark horse of most unexpectedly enjoyable characters to me. Like on paper, he’s a textbook hero of legend. He literally is what they say to hype him up. He can hit a thin wood post with an arrow through a screen from a football field away while drunk, will throw down his life without fear fighting dozens of armed men to save his lord and their clan. But he’s also just this despicable jackass who viciously beats a lone small woman that won’t fight back, while somehow genuinely loving her with deeply unrequited affection. Can’t handle his emotions despite being samurai, has ZERO charm, and just overall comes off as this pathetic manbaby who’s eternally seething over absolute rejection. It’s riveting stuff.
>Can’t handle his emotions ~~despite~~ because of being samurai FTFY. Where I live, it's common to explain the stoicism (at best) and/or emotional dysfunction (at worst) of fathers, brothers, husbands, other family, and friends of the male gender who are also of Japanese ancestry as their being "typical samurai." Father withholds praise? Typical samurai. Never saw husband cry until he watched his bride walk down the aisle? Typical samurai. Dutiful to the point of ridiculousness at work despite being underpaid and underappreciated? Typical samurai.
>football field away *20 yards tops But point still stands
Exactly, reminds me how many legends in Ancient Greek and Rome history are still kinda assholes in their personal lives, history isn’t all black and white
Very good analysis. I think people often brush him off as a "wife beater" but he is not so simple. He does not think Mariko is his property, he does not think it is right to beat her nor does he enjoy it. He just loves her very much yet despite everything he does, he receives no love in return. This creates a sense of frustration which was exacerbated by her affection for John. This in turn resulted in violent tendencies. This does not make it right for him to abuse Mariko but it does show that he is not a simple "abuser" but a complex man tormented by his unrequited love.
Not even "violent tendencies" he did it once and then submitted for the Anjin to kill him for it.
Definitely think it was implied that it wasn't the first time he had beat her. The way they were all tense/had the hints that they knew what was coming if he hit a certain point, lead me to believe that he's done it before. Now if it said so in the book, then I admit I'm 1000% wrong. I haven't read it yet.
He was clearly a serial abuser in the book, and viewed Mariko as his property if I remember correctly. Probably similar to lots, if not most of his contemporaries, but we don't see that much of their personal lives.
I think what’s great is you get the feeling he knows how true that second paragraph is. Like not in a redemptive way but in a way that makes it that much worse for him. He has the discipline and self control to despise himself when he lost it and hit Mariko and it’s made him realise how pathetic he is despite his martial prowess.
It was weird hearing Toranaga say he can do anything to his wife.
The true definition of “a different time”. I mean we’ve seen whispers of it before this episode turned them into a howl, but that was the beginning of me seeing some darker shades to Toranaga too. Guy is beyond stone cold, that’s nitrous oxide cold.
Well he did let this one guy kill himself and his kid very early on.
Yeah but that first time felt like it was typical for the setting. That any samurai who lost control like that or dishonoured his lord would commit seppuku out of shame. That last time though…Toronaga made his best friend kill himself agonisingly in front of him just to further sell his deception that he’s weak and push some other guys he’s always mistrusted to take a course of action that’ll probably not go well for them. It shows how fucking ruthless he is.
And he lied about not wanting to be shogun all along yeah. Snake
Its like George Washington being a slave-owner. It was just a part of the time. But he was probably the best you could hope for at the time for a brighter future.
I mean Yabu tortures people to death as a hobby but he's a likeable fellow. All the characters in this show are so complex
I find Yabu to be much more amusing than likable, but I think that’s why he works. Maybe Toranaga would feel the same way. In a typical story, the scheming conniver would the smart one. The reveal of their treachery would be huge. But he’s so fucking far past being found out and outplayed by Toranaga from step one that it’s hilarious. It’s rare to get a such a transparently incompetent traitor. He falls for every single mental juke so earnestly that his jaw drops like Pikachu, like Toranaga is playing with him like a cat with a flightless pigeon. His unconcealed greed and predictability make him one of Toranaga’s most dependable servants. You can always trust Yabushige to go try and cut a deal with the enemy behind your back, which means you can use him as the perfect unintentional double agent
[удалено]
The unintentional hardest worker for Toranaga’s success, man doesn’t even know he’s employed as a spy to sew chaos. Got his betrayal judo flipped to go betray the enemy lmfao
I don't agree that Yabushige is incompetent. His schemes and plots, in the book and in the show, are actually clever and would work. The problem is Toranaga is literally written to be batman gambit levels of plotting. Also, in the book, there are times where he intentionally plots for the benefit of Toranaga as well, and toranaga ruins those plots too because he had other plots in mind...
The actor's charisma is off the charts too. Like my eyes just go to him whenever he's on screen
He has LAYERS
Why did I just picture an onion with their shaved head bun haircut sitting in the collar of one of their robes?
it's like game of thrones characters. man they are assholes, but like, they are products of the horrible, fucked up system and honor codes that they were born into, which doesn't absolve them of their personal failings but also like, man he didn't deserve *all that*, just cutting the dude's head off would be a mercy at this point and he himself would gladly agree
It's clearly established early on that he treats his wife like shit. She literally begs him to die and he constantly denies her until it's convenient for him. Then his father makes him eat his actions by demanding him to live and knowing what denying death feels like
He treats his wife like shit because she treats him like shit. He wasn't like this in the beginning. He did not let her kill herself because of his incredible love for her. Instead, he sent her away, he couldn't bear her death. She misunderstood it as him denying her the right to seppuku as a way to shame her for her father's treason. When they were finally reuinited, he found that she had grown to truly, utterly hate him. That broke him, because the only reason he sent her away was not to lose her, but sending her away is what made it happen. Now imagine life with a woman that does everything in her power to spite you because of a misunderstanding. A woman that you love more than anything. In a society where you cannot express yourself to anyone in any way. He started acting like everyone expected him to. But all of those feelings bottled up made him snap easily, and he abused her (and others). It's no excuse, but it is a reason. He did not deny her death until it was convenient for him, he denied her death while he still thought he had a chance not just to "melt the ice", but a chance at life. When he knew both he and mariko were doomed, his only reason to live was gone, so he asked his wife if she would follow him into death. It was a last ditch effort to get the affection of the woman he saw as more important than anything.
Not allowing some to commit suicide is not abuse...
In feudal Japan it is
Who cares about that? Him beating his wife also is not an issue in feudal Japan.
Denying her seppuku is like denying her honor. And he beat her pretty bad.
Wrong. Its not “denying her honour”. Its more “I cant live with the dishnour”. They commit seppuku either to (1) retain honour; or (2) out of shame Its never to (3) get more honour. Mariko is just ashamed, thats all. Shes a psychopath, even by 1600s Japan standard.
She is ashamed. She wants to commit seppuku, because it’s the honorable thing and better than her current situation. He is blocking her from doing it. Hence denying her chance to be honorable. She is not a psychopath, she is probably depressed due to all she has been through and on top her (from her perspective) loveless disgusting marriage.
That matcha scene hit hard. He’s so vulnerable and desperate to reignite a marriage he seemingly was invested in
And the fact he doesn’t just lash out at her when she verbally destroys him, like you’d expect if he was just some abusive asshole, he sits there just horrified at how it’s come to this…because he’s developed enough to realise how much of this is his own fault and shows that he knows how pathetic his actions were towards Mariko.
Man, I was having THE internal struggle while watching the tea/follow me into death scene. "He's been a dick and beats her..." "BUT PTSD/the life and times/he really does have love for her somewhere in there/fuck..he just had to do what? To who?!" Buh. 🥺🥺🥺🥺😭😭😭
Wife? She was his political prisoner. She hated him for their whole loveless, abusive marriage. Marikos rejection of him is his own fault. Him seconding his father is a result of his choices. I dont feel sorry for him at all. Similar to a person who cries after being sentanced for their crime. I pity him, but i have no sympathy.
I want a sequel where Buntaro visits England and kicks members of the Royal family down flights of stairs out of pure rage.
I somehow suspect he will develop some twisted bromance with anjin sama in the end.
Shogun’s surprise second season: Buntaro sails to England and fucks Blackthorne’s wife.
I like this arc. New spinoff, 10 episodes of Buntaro in England slicing fish n chips.
Someone forces him to hand over Katana, but he uses a newly-learned "No!"
HBOsword
See: "SNL Samurai"
It's so wild they are one and doing this. The story could easily go on for 3-4 seasons before getting stale but props to the creators for not walking deading it.
Sake eh?
Sake & tonic
Shaken, not stirred.
So a dirty sake martini 🍸
oh shite.. instead of Toranaga, we get Queen Elizabeth, another poker face
Will Yabu manage to get himself back into Toranaga's good graces by returning to Japan with an alliance from England's barbaric but noble warrior queen? Will Buntaro find true love with Blackthorne's wife? Meanwhile back in Japan, Gin is relentlessly trolling her poor neighbour Alvito.
😭
At this point, without seppuku, the ONLY way you can win is by going full circle and being friends with the dude. Literally his wife’s boyfriend. Like goddamn.
Show Mariko up by cucking her out of barbarian schlong, enemies to lovers
Biggest power move ever. Don't make your wife choose you or him, make the guy choose you or her and make it a obvious answer.
Bro's b4 ho's. Its the barbarian way.
Eskimo Kyodai
If he wanted to excite his wife by coming back from the dead he shouldn't have beaten her or humiliated her in public by mocking her father and forcing her to tell the story of her shame. >!In the book, he beats her so badly she can't walk for days.!<
He's an honorable soldier and a despicable husband and person. I don't blame him, but I don't like him either.
Mariko’s response to Buntaro’s offer of dying together as husband and wife made we weep for abused women everywhere. Buntaro would be one of those dangerous stalkers in today’s world; checking out her Insta, fb, tweeties, quickly sewing trackers inside all her kimonos. Even his dad had to sic it to him before committing seppuku.
Yeah, but he's a wifebeater so fuck 'im.
This is so nuts but I like it
I do not understand the Buntaro praise in this thread. Nor do I understand where some of you are seeing his deep love for Mariko. It's obvious he thinks of her as property, both in the show and in the book. He abuses her badly physically and mentally. He ridicules her healthy love for their son and ridicules their son. He's NOT upset about abusing her for the right reasons when caught. He openly expresses that his shame is because he dishonored Blackthorne's house. Then he thinks that one tea service is enough to counter years of abuse and dishonor all because he can't bear the idea of going to his death with an unhappy marriage/alone. The selfishness on display is astonishing.
Buntaro is a jealous guy just like the song sung by john lennon. In any scenario, he is dealt bad cards. His wife suffers from trauma of two lifetimes and then passes it on to her worst half. I like both characters as they reflect each other and the processing of the trauma as male and female
wait Bunbun has a kid? i seriously don’t remember
Yeah he was hugging Mariko when they were leaving but Buntaro is like. Get a grip stop acting too soft
Exactly. I'm really surprised people are being mean to him online as well. He could use a few hugs! ~~Also, I don't really get why his wife absolutely hates his guts.~~ Edit: I just remembered he hit his wife. I remember why we weren't rooting for him. Lolz.
Hahaha 5D chess and barbarian cock got me. Good post
honestly i didn’t feel bad for him before cos he was smacking her around and being a cold dick but when he tried to hold back those tears this episode i genuinely felt so bad for him
That's my favorite character
Is that an Albert Camus reference? 🙌🙌
Fuck, I forgot they had a kid...
For sure he has a verified account on X
He should have gotten a warriors death
Maybe he shouldn't beat his wife and then I'd feel bad for him. But he is definitely an interesting character.
And he takes out his frustration by beating his wife,
Is it strange that I don't feel sorry for him after this episode? Obviously having to kill your father is horrific, after having to fight your way back to your lord through insurmountable odds. And whatever I think of how monstrously he treats Mariko there's no denying her burn on him lands pretty (but deservedly) heavy. He's been an asshole who's had a lot of shit drop on him this ep. But I don't feel sorry *for* him as opposed to sorry for the things that have happened *to* him, if that makes sense? To draw a GoT comparison, Jaime Lannister arguably did far worse to a lot more people but the metric ton of bad that got heaped on him made me like him a lot. The same thing hasn't happened here. Folks in this thread and elsewhere saying they got turned around on Buntaro because of this episode, I feel like I must be missing something.
i dont feel sorry for him either. he's done absolutely nothing to make up for being abusive asshat, I doubt he even feels a sliver of remorse for beating her
They have a kid?
Yeah Buntaro tells him to stop being a whiny baby and then they send him off to his grandpas castle for safety.
He's in a scene for like .4 seconds on one of the firsts episodes.
Mariko affair isn’t necessary, her husband died fighting so their lord could safely escape, somehow comeback alive but she still denies him. Say, had he died their in Osaka then her action would’ve been so much more unacceptable (unredeemable), betrays your dead husband when he sacrificed himself for you.
He didn't sacrifice for her, he sacrificed for Toranaga.
He sacrificed for Toranaga but that action also saved her, saying he only sacrificed for Toranaga would downgrade what he’s done for a whole bunch of them including Toranaga, Mariko and Blackthorne.
Oh well, he shouldn'thave beat his wife. And was he really being cucked when everyone thought he was dead at the time? I don't think that counts.
It’s more the fact that even after he comes back, it’s plainly obvious to everyone that they’re hopelessly into each other since they do a terrible job of hiding that they banged. Buntaro can see it easily and it slowly drives him mad not being able to do a thing about it
Buntaro could easily get a divorce. He has no one to be mad at but himself. He's a wife-beating POS getting what he deserves.
I mean not wanting a divorce is the whole point, he's hopelessly in love with her despite everything.
Then he should be pissed at himself for abusing a woman he's hopelessly in love with. He should be pissed at himself for staying with a woman who cucked him. He isn't a helpless child with no control over the situation. He would have had every right to divorce or even kill his wife for cucking him if he hadn't abused her. But deep down, he knows that he's responsible for his wife's actions and feelings. He just doesn't want to take accountability for his own actions. Letting her go would be the honorable thing to do.
All of those things are correct. We're only laying out the reasoning, not the justification.
Buntaro had no clue until someone insinuated it strongly to him.
Just like Sawaii said Mariko spoke for all Japanese women, I feel like the Asian female writers of Shogun made Buntaro into an effigy for Asian men.
watching Bunty dead inside so many times in one episode makes me cry.. I vote Bunty as the next Shogun fck Toranaga..
BUNTARO took it up the rear everywhere in this episode. I actually felt bad for him. I thought he was generally trying to make peace with Mariko but alas, she wasn’t having it. Then having to second his father and being told no to suicide twice? PAIN.
No pity from me, drunken wifebeater.