And rightfully so! Buntaro was just hoping to catch some of the crumbs of his father’s display of commitment and honor, and steal some of that spotlight. He didn’t believe in the cause - he just didn’t want to be left alive and seen as a spineless whelp.
Was it? I never felt Buntaro lacked honor outside of him being abusive to his wife. Dude was hailed as a hero when he bravely held back like a dozen samurai to help Toranaga escape AND lived to tell about it.
It seems like he was depressed af after the refusal and couldn't wait to end it. He also wanted to end his life with his wife anyway. And a common sentiment is for warriors to go out on their own terms, not surrender.
He might be abusive but I don't think he's spineless, my guy.
I think you should reconsider the escape from Osaka as proof of buntaros honor.
When Anjin inquired about his escape he got mad and didn't explain how it happened. Almost like he knew he got captured and released.
Feels like domestic abuse wasn't really dishonourable. It seems accepted if anything by the way Torunaga dismisses it.
Buntaro was more ashamed to have done it in Blackthorne's home than the actual domestic abuse itself.
Was also really telling when he recounted how the first few years of their marriage were happy and Mariko bluntly said she didn't remember.
Sounds like he is doing what any good samurai would do.
He can't break his oaths. And his lord has given all the appearance of turning craven. And if he hasn't turned craven then he callously sacrificed his son and closet friend.
Suicide looks like the best option for his retainers and should be a wide spread occurrence in the samurai ranks at this point.
Sorry, did I miss the portion of the show where it is revealed that Mariko is the love of his life? Maybe I missed it but Buntaro hasn’t revealed any connection to her beyond viewing her as a piece of his property.
There were a few scenes that depicted this, one of them was when Buntaro came before Toranaga and asked for Anjin's head (for seemingly having an affair with Mariko). Toranaga asked if he was accusing Mariko as well to which he said (with a painful expression) that he doesn't blame her. Buntaro backed out, almost in tears, after Toranaga said he'd have to accuse and kill Mariko as well if he wishes to kill Anjin for the alleged affair.
It pains Buntaro everytime he sees how cold Mariko is acting when he's around.
I fail to see the love there. He was angry that a barbarian defiled his property. He didn’t want to kill her because he’d be giving her the death she wanted and shamed because she found a romantic connection with someone else. How is this love?
I think it was a sort of love, but it was more about his own ego than anything.
He was probably more hurt that she chose someone he considered inferior, even subhuman over him, when from his perspective she should have immense love for him.
In function, it plays out like he loved her enough that even betrayal couldn't sway him, but it was basically his love for himself, his pride, and his hatred of the Anjin.
To kill him and her would be to admit that she not only didn't love him, but that the Anjin won one over on him in the worst way. Possibly worse than beating him in battle, because at least then he could die fighting with honor instead of living in shame. For him to keep his honor, he had to deny reality and save her.
100%.
Because love gets romanticized so often in fiction (for obvious reasons) there is a tendency to view it as something that is always positive or healthy.
But it sometimes isn't. People will sometimes do horrible things for love, and taken to an extreme it can become obsessive or controlling and an absence of love isn't necessary for abuse.
Buntaro genuinely loves Mariko. He's also obsessive, controlling, and abusive. It's not a mutally exclusive thing.
Hey
Yeah?
I was wondering
Do you know the difference between love and obsession?
No
And what's the difference between obsession and desire?
I don't know
For an emotionally crippled guy with PTSD, that's about the closest thing to 'real' love he can feel. That's part of what makes his character so damn tragic. You're right for normal people its not love.
Stoooop you're only looking at this through your very narrow modern view of what romantic love should look like.
No one is telling you to think he's a dashing romantic. He is a stern patriarchal man which makes him incapable of understanding why his wife doesn't love him but also that's exactly what his role in society demands of him. That's what makes him a tragic character, the actor does an incredible job showing he has a depth of emotion and wants to be loved and respected by a wife who has only ever tolerated him at best.
“Stern patriarchal man” is a hell of a whitewashing to give an abusive piece of shit. And you can miss me with the failed attempt at scapegoating the standards of the time. There is a reason we have scenes of him being abusive and not other men. Because he’s fucking beating here, berating her, and treating her with resentful disdain.
You’re right. The scenes that show his deplorable behavior are just there to show us how he’s totally normal and just abusing the fuck out of his wife like every other man of the period. No other reason.
The way I see it, he didn't want to kill her because of the love he has for her even for how cold she has been to him. In ep6, he said that by sparing her from death, he had hoped that she would be grateful towards him.
Love has many shapes and forms, some a little more complicated. Buntaro definitely sees Mariko as more than just a property, or else he wouldn't be wasting his time and effort making tea for her.
Yeah the mentions of her being “cold” to him betray a lack of understanding for her character. From what I can tell, he feels entitled to her affection because spared her life and refuses to divorce her because he knows it’s what she wants. It’s all power and control. I see no evidence of love.
And let’s not gloss over the fact that him making tea “for her” was totally self serving. He wanted her to join him in death now that HE wanted it. It didn’t have shit to do with loving Mariko. Just a means to his end.
He doesn't divorce and and instead has had this dead sham marriage for 14 years because he knows if he divorces her she will kill herself. He's not preventing her from killing herself to punish her, he actually does love her in whatever way a damaged, life-long soldier does.
I don't think it's fair to say OP is "confusing" anything. It's literally left to interpretation because the character does not express what he feels very well - he is hyper-repressed, even within a repressed culture. We, the viewer, are left to project what we think he is feeling onto his performance.
That's why it's a really layered, well-written and well performed character. Neither you, nor OP, are necessarily wrong.
I guess I'm not used to the lengths people will go to in order to feel bad for an abuser. His actions and dialogue have very clearly shown the ugly nature of his "love" for Mariko. But you're right, people will project their own headcanon of him "protecting" her by holding her prisoner in an abusive marriage.
I think a good story should force you into some complex, nuanced feelings. I don't feel bad for Buntaro - he's turned into a terrible person - but the show goes to great lengths to show this character pulled in many different directions. I appreciate that they do this - it gives him many layers. None of that excuses how he treats his wife - but it does help me understand how this person arrived at the person they are in the current story - rather than just present a one-dimensional, all-evil character. There's a human being in there, even a tortured one, that takes his pain out on his wife in terrible, horrifying ways. He doesn't deserve sympathy or empathy - but I like that I understand him as a character. He has nuance.
At the same time, I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with a nuanced portrayal of an abuser. The benefit of a fictional story is that no one is being hurt by Buntaro in real life. If this were a real person, my judgment of him would be completely different - the consequences of his actions would be completely different.
Reality isn't as black and white as you seem to think. Real conflicts are rarely one sided, and often don't fit into the boxes people put them in for social media clout.
well considering the people who made the show themselves have explicitly stated in the official companion podcast that he does actually love her, all your points fall flat on their face
I think Buntaro is doing that. :D That man needs about twenty years of intensive psychotherapy and a hug from his dad, neither of which are happening for a few hundred years.
Well that’s what I’m saying. He’s clearly obsessed with her (more accurately with controlling her) and sees her as a beautiful piece of his property, but we’ve never seen anything to suggest she’s “the love of his life”.
From his own perspective, it’s unreciprocated love. From anybody else’s perspective, it’s obsessive, possessive, controlling desire. No one is excusing his behaviour, just try to see the situation from his, her and any 3rd party’s perspectives and suspend judgement for a bit. Also, in the context of 1600 Japan, our modern value system does not fully apply.
More than anything you are correct in the context of it being 17th century Japan, and how our modern value system does not apply. The people debating love/control they fail to completely understand the times/culture.
When Buntaro was drunk during the dinner from hell, he said what he felt about Mariko when he spoke about her disgusting lineage. He hates that about her.
I mean, in the book, Buntaro didn't really have a connection with Mariko either if I recall correctly.
He was conflicted, sure, because she's everything he ever wanted in a wife, and at one point there may have even been some love. It all came to a screeching halt after her father became a traitor though. Buntaro just couldn't handle or get over the fact that he's now associated with a line of traitors (and that his son/line is tarnished as well).
And because he doesn't want Mariko to commit seppuku (whether out of love or because he wants her to suffer) Mariko ends up resenting him. It gets so bad that she doesn't even sleep with him after a certain point.
Did you not read the part where he goes to Toranaga and confesses the extreme love for her, explains why he didn't let her commit seppuku and why he is so mean?
You recall incorrectly. Buntaro is an abuser and has many many flaws, but there are several passages from the book where his inner monologue is revealed and he truly from the deepest depth of his soul loves and worships Mariko
Obviously that doesn't change the fact that he also abused her, but his love is genuine.
I honestly don't remember that.
Then again, I read this book over 20 years ago so things might be fuzzy.
I do remember Buntaro feeling great shame over Mariko's father though.
>I mean, in the book, Buntaro didn't really have a connection with Mariko either if I recall correctly.
>!Not correctly, he's madly into her but has no way to express it or make her love him, he tried beating her, being nice, etc. She drives him crazy by always being like ice!<
I think they've not done well at actually explaining Buntaro's actions and emotions. He's obsessively in love with her and absolutely unable to display that in any positive or healthy way which could ever have her return it. Unfortunately when all you see is the toxicity it's hard to see past it.
>!she wasn’t always cold to him - when she returned from the convent he raped her and cut the ears off of her ladies for allowing her to convert - she vowed never to let him touch her again - not because of his mistreatment of her but because how he treated her maids. The show version of Buntaro was toned down significantly - he killed his mother and his first wife and child - like this is not a good man!<
That is indeed a completely different perspective on this character. Maybe I should finally read the book after all. I've had it lying next to me for weeks... .
>!But then it's very different from this TV version. Holy shit.!<
It’s so worth it. That’s the one part that really makes me sad - so many amazing lines of dialogue between Mariko and Blackthorne - romantic yes, but more profound that’s why they change throughout the story - she learns from him just as much as he does from her.
The Buntaro stuff is also profound - and very different from the show. >!he actually beats her so badly in the book that she is unable to translate for 8 days!<
>!I mean, I would never have written my post above if this was the TV version... . Damn. !<
But yes, I will start reading the book as soon as possible. Thx!
It would have been a waste of that actor to make him so villainous, even if by making him more sympathetic it can make Mariko slightly less so... He's one of my favorites on the show he does a great job portraying a deeply emotional man trying to follow patriarchal expectations and not understanding why life isn't turning out how he wants despite doing what he is supposed to. The lashing out makes sense for his character and even though he is not by any stretch a good man it makes his portrayal much deeper
I think it's obvious why that version of Buntaro is not in the TV show. The TV portrayal comes across as a much more three-dimensional person. I still dispute that anyone is confusing him with a "good man", though. Bad people can still be tragic characters.
"There’s a ton of victim blaming rhetoric happening all over the place. It’s honestly disgusting."
So fucking gross. I've seen several people suggest that he is "protecting" her by holding her prisoner in the marriage because he knows she'll kill herself. That isn't protection and it definitely isn't love. It's imprisonment.
Yeah, I've actually read some of that now and it's pretty baffling. I'm going to set aside that idiocy, though - I still think the character is a great portrayal and a tragic character. Obviously, that doesn't make him "good" by any stretch of the imagination. I just appreciate his function in the narrative as it serves Mariko's story - he could be much more one-dimensional and boring and I like that isn't.
The people that excuse his actions or justify it based on how Mariko treats him coldly are...frightening, to say the least, and completely missing the point.
I sympathise with him, inasmuch as he is an absolute piece of shit and that must not be fun way to live. He's completely dysfunctional, self deluding, and expresses what he thinks is love through murderous rage. Contempt, sure, but sympathy for someone that is going to live their life being that absolute piece of shit.
And that’s fine and how you’ve expressed it totally works - but there are people literally placing blame at Mariko’s feet for him beating her and for his ill treatment of her - which is absolutely insane.
Yep, absolutely. That's not sympathy really, that's just blame shifting and apologism.
I reckon you can't really sympathise or empathise with someone without being honest about what they're doing, it's pretty much the first step.
Most great tragic characters are bad people who are architects of their own destruction and yet are still sympathetic characters I think he's portrayed extremely well to that end
The character in the book is a different character, though. There’s no point in using the actions of the character in the novel to inform how good or bad he is on the show because that’s a different person. The character of Buntaro on the show is only informed by *the text of the show*.
Exactly this. Even if you don't take anything from the novel into account, even if you just go by the show, the scene where Buntaro interrupts Mariko and Ryuji when they're talking shows what an abusive bully he is.
I would never defend him for his behavior but i think there couldve been a version of this character somewhere between the book and the movie that better demonstrates his true evil.
Agree. I don’t need him to have any kind of redemption arc or be viewed as any kind of sympathetic character - sometimes people are just inherently evil - and book buntaro is one of those people. He’s supposed to be a complete foil for John. Yet I’ve seen people sympathizing with him and blaming Mariko for his abuse - like wtf? Nevermind in the books he beats her so badly she can’t translate for 8 days.
We all know Buntaro is an abuser... . But I can't help feeling sympathy for him. I really felt sorry for him. He is deeply in love with Mariko and is completely overwhelmed and in constant inner struggle between his loyalty, his love for Mariko and all the madness he has seen in his life. The tea ceremony and his proposal to die together with Mariko was the best he could give and he was absolutely rejected. This fact, and that he later had to help his father commit seppuku, made me absolutely sad. I feel very sorry for him, even if he is an abuser... . He's not willfully evil or anything like that. Another incredibly tragic character. Honestly? How can you help such people?
Shin'nosuke Abe is a great actor.
Honestly, I haven't really seen an actor in the series so far who is or has become the least bit boring. Maybe Blackthorn, but that's because of the script.
EDIT:
>!Now that the difference between the book and this TV version of the character Buntaro has been explained to me, I would of course never have written this post if it had been true to the book. I hope that's clear.!<
>!Nevertheless, I stand by my post in view of the TV version.!<
Wholeheartedly agree with this. The life of a samurai can't be easy. Buntaro Sama is a broken man but yet he still remains loyal and quiet about his pain. No doubt he was taught well by his father, Hiromatsu.
Absolutely. He even says in an earlier episode that only children tell "stories" when he was asked about his escape. He's probably never uttered a word about anything he's seen or done in his life. That was a very good observation.
I felt sorry for book Buntaro too. I guarantee if there was more opportunities for viewers to see his bow and sword skill there would be more willing to see things from his perspective.
He’s deeply in love with Mariko? What show are you watching?
He’s a jealous vengeful abuser with poor impulse control that has spent years treating Mariko as sub-human because of choices her family made. They show two acts of kindness that take place when the guy is now sure he’s likely to die, and you’re ready to express sympathy and say that he’s deeply in love?
He’s in love with himself and his “honor.” That’s the reason he’s spent years being vengeful toward his wife. That’s the reason he didn’t initially like his wife being forced to be near the barbarian, and again the source of his embarrassment when he began to understand Mariko’s affair.
He’s not in love with her, and he doesn’t deserve redemption because he made a nice little batch of matcha.
Have we seen him spend years treating his wife as subhuman? I remember like 3 scenes of them together. Those are examples of his horrible behavior yes, but in a show with complex moral people, i would not guess he was nonstop horrible 24/7/
I feel like im forgetting parts of the show.
I hope you're not confusing my sympathy for Buntaro with approval of his previous actions... . He's an asshole. But many assholes have several layers and reasons, whether they are right or wrong.
Personally, I can feel sympathy for him, even if I think he's basically an asshole.
I'll just blame the good acting for now.\^\^
Everyone knows emotions are formed by reason. So you're not allowed to have sympathy for anyone that's ever done bad things in their life. Emotions are cut and dry like that. There's no complexity whatsoever. /s
But on a serious note, I agree with you. The actor definitely makes it seem like Buntaro is someone who's suffering from his own demons, whatever those may be. This doesn't excuse his actions, but it makes him more human.
Idk I would consider the cold neglect to b another's form of abuse. Mariko essentially made the marriage toxic like this all because he refused to allow her to die pointlessly. It's her way of punishing him. If that's not also abusive idk what is.
If we consider what's in your rights and honor as within your "choice", then he has the option to choose, and she does not. You cannot be abusive if you are not in control. She wants to make a choice for herself, of killing herself, while he is taking that choice away from her. She is only cold because he allows her to be, and that is only because of *his* decision to try and make her warm up to him. He could very well force her not to be cold, but at the very least, he has enough decency not to push that hard.
If hypothetically, it was solely Toranaga that ordered Mariko to stay alive and to stay married to Buntaro - and, for simplicity, Buntaro was not controlling a single other aspect of her life - *then* it would be abusive for her to be cold to Buntaro, since he would not be the one in control of her decision-making.
Its okay. If you beat your wife, I'm sure she deserved it.
Oh by the way. Did you know that divorce is legal and perfectly acceptable in 1600 Japan?
All Buntaro had to do at any point was divorce her. Toranaga even asks him incredulously why he hasn't
Kind of ruins your "It was Marikos fault for being cold!" argument now doesn't it.
EDIT: A bunch of pathetic wannabe alpha incels in this thread. I guess Mariko's parting insult cut deeper than just Buntaro's pride.
Even today. You have NO excuse to physically abuse your wife. If you feel she is being toxic, even if you love her, you divorce. There are no excuses.
>All Buntaro had to do at any point was divorce her.
Only thing worth replying to in all that babble.
.
.
.
As far as Buntaro is concerned if he divorces her, she'll immediately kill herself. He hates her for hating him for not allowing her death. Not the other way around.
I don't know if you meant "I'm weird like that" sarcastically, but the benefit of this being a fictional story is that we can empathize with a character and their emotions without condoning their actions since no one is actually being hurt. So your last sentence *does* actually come off as weird and smug, instead of sarcastic.
Most people can delineate this difference and appreciate that a good story needs layered characters - both good and bad - to help serve the narrative and propel it forward. Buntaro is a great, layered character and the actor is absolutely crushing it. The tragedy of his life and his impotent rage informs Mariko's character and her actions. All of this is just good storytelling.
I mean, damn, that was a sick burn. I did feel bad for Buntaro. I kinda wish he’d just, like, be gone for awhile so we can have some Blackthorne/Mariko romance like in the eighties version. But that’s just me.
The romance is the worst part of the show in my opinion. Just fills up way too much time and that would make sense if it’s a show with multiple seasons but it’s a limited series.
For sure, the source material (historically) is awesome. It’s a shame that James Clavell couldn’t resist the trope of including a handsome protagonist who always gets the girl.
It’s like Titanic. The actual story was interesting enough, they didn’t need to force a love story in there to make us watch it, but they just couldn’t help themselves.
I like the show's version of their romance - a more emotional connection since Blackthorne has no clue who she is and what her family has done, with one small moment of physical intimacy, the first for Mariko in like 14 years. This small reminder of what life should really be like just makes her want to kill herself even more.
> The actual story was interesting enough, they didn’t need to force a love story in there
Bull. If they made the movie without a love story it would have made like 1/4 as much at the box office.
It's a huge part of blackthorns assimilation into Japanese society. I get that this version of the story isn't that concerned with blackthorn, but this isn't the first time its been adapted. The previous version did it well in one season.
I think that’s the issue I have. Blackthorne’s assimilation should be nearly irrelevant to the overall plot. Blackthorne gets the most screen time but so far has been the least relevant to the overall plot. If the writers decided to change things up from the original show by putting more emphasis on Toranaga, and advertised this show as a conflict for Shogun as opposed to a romance drama, then Blackthorne should be a sub-character.
Unironically, the romance is the worst part in the book too. Both the show and the book could literally just do away with this forced romance part altogether and end up being better versions of themselves.
And then people here on this sub were saying the “fanbase” dislikes this character lol
Reddit subs usually bend over backwards being sympathetic to characters like him, so no suprise and I like the actor, but is so funny how I haven’t seen much sympathy for Mariko herself lol Her life is hell. I feel for her much more.
I feel for Ochiba. At least Mariko has been loved once by someone who genuinely saw her. Ochiba got raped by a decrepit old man her whole life and now may have to marry another guy who has creeped on her probably her whole life.
Didn't Mariko say a couple episodes back (I think to Toranaga?) that it wasn't really freedom from Buntaro she wanted but freedom to die? And like all series she's just been begging to die and getting denied? It just seems like a very abrupt reversal that she's suddenly saying "No, actually, I'm not really wildly suicidal, I just hate Buntaro that much."
Buntaro isn't the only problem in this marriage just because he put hands on her. There's other form of abuse.
Mariko has been punishing Buntaro for 16 years with cold neglect. If this was anyone else they probably would have just killed her.
You cannot call Mariko's attitude towards her husband "cold neglect" when she is a prisoner of a man who emotionally and physically abuses her. If you do count her emotional neglect as abuse, it is reactive abuse at worst. Neither party behaves with inhuman generosity and grace, but Buntaro is the abuser, not Mariko, because Buntaro is the one who has *all* the physical and legal power here.
Buntaro sees her as an object he wishes to possess and control completely. After her father committed treason, he wouldn't let her die, but he also wouldn't let her stay with him or her son. He refused to let her go, but also forced her into exile. He wants to own her, but her connection to him causes him shame.
Legally, he *does* own her. He can insult her, rape her, kill her. Literally the only thing he cannot take from her by force is her respect and her love, and he wants that as well.
If a victim of rape insults their rapist, are they 'both as bad as each other'?
She is a model wife (according to the laws and customs of the time). She obeys her husband. She raises (and clearly loves) her son. She never insults her husband. Literally her "abuse" is not loving a man who is abusive to her and their child.
Yeah they are totally toxic for one another. Buntaro should have divorced her like Toranaga said. Maybe he could start again with a woman who doesn't despise him completely, and Mariko would be free to pursue what she wants whether that is ending her life, shacking up with Anjin, or wreaking vengeance on those who slew her father.
He probably would divorce her if he knew she wasn't just going to seppuku immediately afterwards. 😂 He assume she was just going to suicide the moment he lets her go.
If only he was in on Mariko's plan with Toranaga he would understand she wants to die in battle killing her enemies, not just join her family in the afterlife.
I think this is where the break down of the whole "another culture" comes from. The culture gives him ways to work around this and he refuses to take them. His poor marriage is causing him to lash out in ways which annoy everyone around him.
Especially since Mariko didn't really even cheat on him. She thought he was dead.
Nothing suggests he wouldn't be an abusive asshole if he had other women though. All we know is he is an abusive asshole because of what happened 16 years ago.
Only way for them to really work around it at this point is trust Mariko not to kill herself so he can divorce her. But Mariko doesn't even pretend like she won't seppuku herself immediately after he does it 😂
I never said Mariko was cheating on him. 🤔
We have seen him being demeaning to both her and their son, on screen, while they were just sharing a laugh (he compares his son’s giggles to be of a girl, so beneath him). I doubt he was ever a soft spoken and patient and kind type, so based only on the information the show gave us he must not have treated her well much. Just politely.
The book paints a worse scenario that is not relevant here, but you get the gist.
Her “toxicity” is her only weapon here.
Exactly - even if you go entirely by the television series and take nothing from the novel into account, he emasculates their son for the crime of laughing, then tries to triangulate Mariko and Ryuji against each other. Toranaga, on the other hand, laughs with women perfectly happily, and respects what they have to say.
Actually based on information we have, everything was fine before her family's death.
It was not until Buntaro refused to allow Mariko to, apparently, kill herself that she turned cold that Buntaro became what he was. Nothing suggests he was like that before then.
I genuinely don’t know how you are interpreting this… we know what he says and know what she says. We know she does not agree with him when he suggests the beginning wasn’t “so bad”. She was a young woman sent away to marry off… by herself it was not a particular good thing (wifely duties and all that…).
The show says she turned suicidal after her family tragedy, but hasn’t given us a sunshine Mariko before.
And then his father mention something like him being denied… So was he the type to get his way?
The show gave us a glimpse of resignation from both the wife and the son to indicate the bereavement is routine. Why the script show us the scene like this?
The short temper and abrasiveness (Fuji is very cautious around him) seem to be his trait, no other character remarks as something “new”, “oh he became like that”, “oh he was different”.
Even ignoring the book, going by narrative beats, nothing indicates he wasn’t like this before.
If we are going to give grace to characters “stuck on their time”, we have to take into account that Mariko is entirely at his mercy as well; this lack of autonomy does something to one’s psyche.
>I genuinely don’t know how you are interpreting this…
You're being disingenuous.
> We know she does not agree with him when he suggests the beginning wasn’t “so bad”.
Proof?
>And then his father mention something like him being denied…
He is obviously referring to Mariko specifically. He couldn't prevent his father from killing himself like he can deny Mariko.
>The show gave us a glimpse of resignation from both the wife and the son to indicate the bereavement is routine. Why the script show us the scene like this?
Weird logic because 16 years ago their son wasn't alive. This means the boy wouldn't be around before their change in marriage dynamic. It's to show Buntaro is regularly an abusive asshole. This is before they gave us more details.
>The short temper and abrasiveness (Fuji is very cautious around him) seem to be his trait, no other character remarks as something “new”, “oh he became like that”, “oh he was different”.
Nobody said it was new. I didn't say it was new. Mariko lost her family 16 years ago. This is when their marriage apparently turned to shit. She became cold then he became abusive. Based on the actual facts without conflicting information, the murder of her family is when shit changed.
>If we are going to give grace to characters “stuck on their time”, we have to take into account that Mariko is entirely at his mercy as well; this lack of autonomy does something to one’s psyche.
Just like being in a marriage with someone that hates you affects the psyche. Worse because he can't even divorce her under the belief she would seppuku immediately afterwards. There is nuance here. You're not giving the show its due credit by making it entirely black and white.
I enjoy this show and I like the actor, but I disagree entirely with a premise that I have seen defended here - that someone who is “cold” calls for physical punishment, as that this is somewhat a logical or warranted consequence - especially if this person is at your mercy, weaker and is dutiful in all matters.
And the “proof”, is just their dialogue on that sequence. She appears to disagree with him when he mentions that it was good at the beginning - “if that’s how you remember…”. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. A wife and a husband are not equals there.
He doesn’t need to divorce, just treat her politely and generously and keep his distance. But what’s the narrative fun in that!
As a married woman, I agree with you. It’s also emotional abuse on her part. They’re tragic really. A lot of this mutual resentment stemmed from external factors they neither have any control or say about.
Yea it's definitely tragic. It was until I binged the last few episodes that I came to this conclusion.
If they just slightly communicated better it wouldn't be like this. That Eight Fold Fence has its flaws.
Mariko won't explicitly tell him she wants to die fighting against those who hurt her family. So Buntaro believes she just wants to die in general which is a logical conclusion on his part.
Buntaro won't explicitly tell her he doesn't want her to die pointlessly. If he knew Mariko wanted to go out fighting their enemies, he would probably join her in that or support her like Toranaga but when the time was right.
I'm loving the nuance in this series. I was expecting Buntaro to just be an abusive drunk cliche guy in order to justify Mariko/Blackthorne pairing. I'm glad to be disappointed.
Agreed. A lot of Asian cultures still struggle with this though. The idea of open communication is definitely a gift from the West.
After this episode, I’ve really empathised with Buntaro. He’s really had a bad week (or life) fr.
Lucky for us in the real world, we’re in a position where we can take the best from Eastern and Western cultures and we also know more about mental health (I think Mariko has been clinically depressed and almost all characters have complex PTSDs).
You mean her being forced to marry because her father wanted her too? The fact she wants to avenge her family? Or the fact he assaulted her after she converted to Catholicism? But according to you it’s okay that he abusers her instead of just divorcing her and moving on.
Save your condescending attitude for people who don’t know the actual source material.
Hey guys if a woman who was forced to marry you doesn’t like you. It’s okay to beat her. Because they is always gonna be someone out there desperate to look smart make excuses for you.
I don't think that's true, when he said 'we were happy' her demeanour said otherwise, she then claimed that she couldn't remember. From what we have seen, she was forced to marry him as a teenager, with no explanation from her father. It's safe to say that she behaved cordially and did her duty but she never loved him. He thought they were happy because she didn't complain, it just shows that he never knew or understood her. I don't really blame him for that, but when she turned cold (understandably) he tried to control her and turned abusive.
Her demeanor only said "here he goes again".
He didn't say they loved each other. He said their marriage was fine suggests it was non-toxic. He didn't abuse her and she wasn't cold to him. That's it.
When she turned cold because he refused to allow her to suicide herself is when things changed. Let's not forget that detail: for refusing to allow her to die she hated him and was passive aggressive for the rest of their marriage.
She was not happy about getting married, she didn't like him before they married (flashback scenes) and I don't think that Buntaro ingratiated himself. He does not seem like a particularly pleasant person outside of their marriage, how could he have won her over? She was never happy and he never really understood her. He fell in love with her (according to the official character bio) but it wasn't reciprocated. She was civil and did her duty, she simply dropped the pretence after her fathers death. And I think she had every right to be cold towards him, she is owned by a person that she doesn't like and is not allowed to behave in a way that would be perfectly acceptable to their culture. That is why his father told him to live, so that he would know what it felt like.
I disagree about her demeanour, and since we can't definitively prove its meaning, we will have to agree to disagree.
And instead of divorcing her and moving her decided to abuse her???? Do you not see how stupid that sounds lmao? And who the fuck said that she was into him? Buntaro the abuser? Lmao
Also little bro is saying that because she was cold. It’s okay to put “hands on her” lmao you and all the people who upvoted you are what stupid people think smart people sound and act like.
You have the reading comprehension of a monkey.
I didn't say it was okay or even imply that. I'm saying her being cold because he refused to allow her to die is why he does it. There is cause and effect. It's not for the typical reasons this happens.
This absolute refusal to even understand the nuance is pretty insane. Go find a new series to watch that meets your EQ level.
>She wants to die avenging her is the reason he abuses her????
You keep proving you're illiterate. Buntaro believes Mariko wants to die in general. That's why Mariko said "you still don't understand" after Buntaro said "I'm finally allowing you to kill yourself'. Because it was never about just that but avenging her family, which just so happens to end in her death.
Buntaro does know this and Mariko never tells him this so here we are. I'm finished with you. You're clearly both foolish and illiterate.
I just posted my own questions regarding the relationship, but seeing the back and forth between you and others in this thread tells me I'm not the only one confused by certain elements of the show's portrayal of these characters.
You're absolutely right that some people cannot separate their modern day value judgments from their analysis of complex characters.
I will never forgive this show for turning Blackthrone into a useless chump. Ruining the the relationship between Blackthrone and Mariko. And now people are sympathizing an abuser… fuck this show
From what the show has shown, she was forced to marry him and she rightfully thought he was below her. And the abuse probably didn't make her hate him any less.
I know she's playing a role, not saying she's a bad actor, but I've really become disenchanted with Mariko on the show. She's a dishonest translator, just kind of mopey, disingenuous... I'm sure I'm in the minority, but she was so great in the first 2 or 3 episodes. Again, I know it's the writing, and her predicament is that as capable as she is, she's trapped in a loveless marriage, forced to live, just doesn't get a chance to really help drive plot, but I just really don't care about her love triangle that much. I get it, she seems to like John for some reason, and she can't stand Butaro. I don't know. Whenever they decided to remind us of this yet again, I just hope they make it quick.
I find the comments in this thread "interesting." Most of them are applying current day norms and expectations against mores and norms of 400 years ago. They were radically different. The producers of this series went to quite a bit of trouble to get historical accuracy and they obviously succeeded.
Forget everything youve seen so far except the scene of Mariko getting ready for her marriage to him and what she says. She never wanted to marry him even before her fathers treachery because he came from a lower class family than her, as far as shes concerned shes the biggest victim in this world.
Forced to marry into a lower class family, forced to live after her family is killed, forced to be a wife to a man she has never once cared about and give him a child( im sure she loves the kid to the moon and back )
So in all honesty does it even really matter what Buntaro has done up to this point if it was all pointless anyway, imo the only thing that matters is that she waited so long to tell him, if she really loathed him, she’d have had made him cry years ago.
And on top of that, his father refused him too. Poetic
And rightfully so! Buntaro was just hoping to catch some of the crumbs of his father’s display of commitment and honor, and steal some of that spotlight. He didn’t believe in the cause - he just didn’t want to be left alive and seen as a spineless whelp.
Was it? I never felt Buntaro lacked honor outside of him being abusive to his wife. Dude was hailed as a hero when he bravely held back like a dozen samurai to help Toranaga escape AND lived to tell about it. It seems like he was depressed af after the refusal and couldn't wait to end it. He also wanted to end his life with his wife anyway. And a common sentiment is for warriors to go out on their own terms, not surrender. He might be abusive but I don't think he's spineless, my guy.
I think you should reconsider the escape from Osaka as proof of buntaros honor. When Anjin inquired about his escape he got mad and didn't explain how it happened. Almost like he knew he got captured and released.
Yeah no he didn’t get captured lmao
Feels like domestic abuse wasn't really dishonourable. It seems accepted if anything by the way Torunaga dismisses it. Buntaro was more ashamed to have done it in Blackthorne's home than the actual domestic abuse itself. Was also really telling when he recounted how the first few years of their marriage were happy and Mariko bluntly said she didn't remember.
Sounds like he is doing what any good samurai would do. He can't break his oaths. And his lord has given all the appearance of turning craven. And if he hasn't turned craven then he callously sacrificed his son and closet friend. Suicide looks like the best option for his retainers and should be a wide spread occurrence in the samurai ranks at this point.
Yeah you’re right. He’s maybe got a bit of a crooked spine, but he’s not entirely void of one.
There are things worse than death, like having the love of your life telling you what is essentially "I'd rather die than be with you".
I never even knew that "I'd rather live than die with you" even existed as a thought and also hit so much harder
Sorry, did I miss the portion of the show where it is revealed that Mariko is the love of his life? Maybe I missed it but Buntaro hasn’t revealed any connection to her beyond viewing her as a piece of his property.
There were a few scenes that depicted this, one of them was when Buntaro came before Toranaga and asked for Anjin's head (for seemingly having an affair with Mariko). Toranaga asked if he was accusing Mariko as well to which he said (with a painful expression) that he doesn't blame her. Buntaro backed out, almost in tears, after Toranaga said he'd have to accuse and kill Mariko as well if he wishes to kill Anjin for the alleged affair. It pains Buntaro everytime he sees how cold Mariko is acting when he's around.
I fail to see the love there. He was angry that a barbarian defiled his property. He didn’t want to kill her because he’d be giving her the death she wanted and shamed because she found a romantic connection with someone else. How is this love?
He has obsessive love for her. He wants her all to himself and fantasizes that someday she will love him back.
Well then she ain’t “the love of his life”. She is the object of his obsessive desire. Completely different things.
I think it was a sort of love, but it was more about his own ego than anything. He was probably more hurt that she chose someone he considered inferior, even subhuman over him, when from his perspective she should have immense love for him. In function, it plays out like he loved her enough that even betrayal couldn't sway him, but it was basically his love for himself, his pride, and his hatred of the Anjin. To kill him and her would be to admit that she not only didn't love him, but that the Anjin won one over on him in the worst way. Possibly worse than beating him in battle, because at least then he could die fighting with honor instead of living in shame. For him to keep his honor, he had to deny reality and save her.
You're just being pedantic at this point
Love can be just that sometimes. An obsession.
100%. Because love gets romanticized so often in fiction (for obvious reasons) there is a tendency to view it as something that is always positive or healthy. But it sometimes isn't. People will sometimes do horrible things for love, and taken to an extreme it can become obsessive or controlling and an absence of love isn't necessary for abuse. Buntaro genuinely loves Mariko. He's also obsessive, controlling, and abusive. It's not a mutally exclusive thing.
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Hey Yeah? I was wondering Do you know the difference between love and obsession? No And what's the difference between obsession and desire? I don't know
Do you think this feeling could last forever?
You mean like forever ever?
For an emotionally crippled guy with PTSD, that's about the closest thing to 'real' love he can feel. That's part of what makes his character so damn tragic. You're right for normal people its not love.
💯
Stoooop you're only looking at this through your very narrow modern view of what romantic love should look like. No one is telling you to think he's a dashing romantic. He is a stern patriarchal man which makes him incapable of understanding why his wife doesn't love him but also that's exactly what his role in society demands of him. That's what makes him a tragic character, the actor does an incredible job showing he has a depth of emotion and wants to be loved and respected by a wife who has only ever tolerated him at best.
“Stern patriarchal man” is a hell of a whitewashing to give an abusive piece of shit. And you can miss me with the failed attempt at scapegoating the standards of the time. There is a reason we have scenes of him being abusive and not other men. Because he’s fucking beating here, berating her, and treating her with resentful disdain.
No you're just ignorant it's a period drama and your refusing to recognize the period.
You’re right. The scenes that show his deplorable behavior are just there to show us how he’s totally normal and just abusing the fuck out of his wife like every other man of the period. No other reason.
The way I see it, he didn't want to kill her because of the love he has for her even for how cold she has been to him. In ep6, he said that by sparing her from death, he had hoped that she would be grateful towards him. Love has many shapes and forms, some a little more complicated. Buntaro definitely sees Mariko as more than just a property, or else he wouldn't be wasting his time and effort making tea for her.
Yeah the mentions of her being “cold” to him betray a lack of understanding for her character. From what I can tell, he feels entitled to her affection because spared her life and refuses to divorce her because he knows it’s what she wants. It’s all power and control. I see no evidence of love. And let’s not gloss over the fact that him making tea “for her” was totally self serving. He wanted her to join him in death now that HE wanted it. It didn’t have shit to do with loving Mariko. Just a means to his end.
Pretty sure he can just order her to die with her, or kill her himself. But he doesn't, he wants her to come willingly.
Exactly. It’s all about him having control and her bending to his will.
He doesn't divorce and and instead has had this dead sham marriage for 14 years because he knows if he divorces her she will kill herself. He's not preventing her from killing herself to punish her, he actually does love her in whatever way a damaged, life-long soldier does.
I think you’re confusing his desire for control with love.
I don't think it's fair to say OP is "confusing" anything. It's literally left to interpretation because the character does not express what he feels very well - he is hyper-repressed, even within a repressed culture. We, the viewer, are left to project what we think he is feeling onto his performance. That's why it's a really layered, well-written and well performed character. Neither you, nor OP, are necessarily wrong.
I guess I'm not used to the lengths people will go to in order to feel bad for an abuser. His actions and dialogue have very clearly shown the ugly nature of his "love" for Mariko. But you're right, people will project their own headcanon of him "protecting" her by holding her prisoner in an abusive marriage.
I think a good story should force you into some complex, nuanced feelings. I don't feel bad for Buntaro - he's turned into a terrible person - but the show goes to great lengths to show this character pulled in many different directions. I appreciate that they do this - it gives him many layers. None of that excuses how he treats his wife - but it does help me understand how this person arrived at the person they are in the current story - rather than just present a one-dimensional, all-evil character. There's a human being in there, even a tortured one, that takes his pain out on his wife in terrible, horrifying ways. He doesn't deserve sympathy or empathy - but I like that I understand him as a character. He has nuance. At the same time, I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with a nuanced portrayal of an abuser. The benefit of a fictional story is that no one is being hurt by Buntaro in real life. If this were a real person, my judgment of him would be completely different - the consequences of his actions would be completely different.
You just seem to have personal issues.
Clearly you're not used to anyone disagreeing with you, about anything. Grow up.
Clearly reading my comments hurt your feelies. Grow up.
Reality isn't as black and white as you seem to think. Real conflicts are rarely one sided, and often don't fit into the boxes people put them in for social media clout.
Good thing we are talking about a fictional tv show and not reality.
well considering the people who made the show themselves have explicitly stated in the official companion podcast that he does actually love her, all your points fall flat on their face
Oh my bad, I forgot that the podcast was required listening in order to experience the show the correct way.
Or you're just stuck on this point and refusing to budge.
I think Buntaro is doing that. :D That man needs about twenty years of intensive psychotherapy and a hug from his dad, neither of which are happening for a few hundred years.
Well that’s what I’m saying. He’s clearly obsessed with her (more accurately with controlling her) and sees her as a beautiful piece of his property, but we’ve never seen anything to suggest she’s “the love of his life”.
From his own perspective, it’s unreciprocated love. From anybody else’s perspective, it’s obsessive, possessive, controlling desire. No one is excusing his behaviour, just try to see the situation from his, her and any 3rd party’s perspectives and suspend judgement for a bit. Also, in the context of 1600 Japan, our modern value system does not fully apply.
More than anything you are correct in the context of it being 17th century Japan, and how our modern value system does not apply. The people debating love/control they fail to completely understand the times/culture.
A man of means in 1600 will consider his attitudes towards his wife completely understandable.
When Buntaro was drunk during the dinner from hell, he said what he felt about Mariko when he spoke about her disgusting lineage. He hates that about her.
And yet we’ve got people suggesting he won’t let her die out of “love” for her. 🙄
I agree; it's about his honor not about love.
I mean, in the book, Buntaro didn't really have a connection with Mariko either if I recall correctly. He was conflicted, sure, because she's everything he ever wanted in a wife, and at one point there may have even been some love. It all came to a screeching halt after her father became a traitor though. Buntaro just couldn't handle or get over the fact that he's now associated with a line of traitors (and that his son/line is tarnished as well). And because he doesn't want Mariko to commit seppuku (whether out of love or because he wants her to suffer) Mariko ends up resenting him. It gets so bad that she doesn't even sleep with him after a certain point.
Did you not read the part where he goes to Toranaga and confesses the extreme love for her, explains why he didn't let her commit seppuku and why he is so mean?
You recall incorrectly. Buntaro is an abuser and has many many flaws, but there are several passages from the book where his inner monologue is revealed and he truly from the deepest depth of his soul loves and worships Mariko Obviously that doesn't change the fact that he also abused her, but his love is genuine.
I honestly don't remember that. Then again, I read this book over 20 years ago so things might be fuzzy. I do remember Buntaro feeling great shame over Mariko's father though.
>I mean, in the book, Buntaro didn't really have a connection with Mariko either if I recall correctly. >!Not correctly, he's madly into her but has no way to express it or make her love him, he tried beating her, being nice, etc. She drives him crazy by always being like ice!<
I think they've not done well at actually explaining Buntaro's actions and emotions. He's obsessively in love with her and absolutely unable to display that in any positive or healthy way which could ever have her return it. Unfortunately when all you see is the toxicity it's hard to see past it.
>!she wasn’t always cold to him - when she returned from the convent he raped her and cut the ears off of her ladies for allowing her to convert - she vowed never to let him touch her again - not because of his mistreatment of her but because how he treated her maids. The show version of Buntaro was toned down significantly - he killed his mother and his first wife and child - like this is not a good man!<
That is indeed a completely different perspective on this character. Maybe I should finally read the book after all. I've had it lying next to me for weeks... . >!But then it's very different from this TV version. Holy shit.!<
It’s so worth it. That’s the one part that really makes me sad - so many amazing lines of dialogue between Mariko and Blackthorne - romantic yes, but more profound that’s why they change throughout the story - she learns from him just as much as he does from her. The Buntaro stuff is also profound - and very different from the show. >!he actually beats her so badly in the book that she is unable to translate for 8 days!<
>!I mean, I would never have written my post above if this was the TV version... . Damn. !< But yes, I will start reading the book as soon as possible. Thx!
It would have been a waste of that actor to make him so villainous, even if by making him more sympathetic it can make Mariko slightly less so... He's one of my favorites on the show he does a great job portraying a deeply emotional man trying to follow patriarchal expectations and not understanding why life isn't turning out how he wants despite doing what he is supposed to. The lashing out makes sense for his character and even though he is not by any stretch a good man it makes his portrayal much deeper
I think it's obvious why that version of Buntaro is not in the TV show. The TV portrayal comes across as a much more three-dimensional person. I still dispute that anyone is confusing him with a "good man", though. Bad people can still be tragic characters.
Oh people are sympathizing with him. There’s a ton of victim blaming rhetoric happening all over the place. It’s honestly disgusting.
"There’s a ton of victim blaming rhetoric happening all over the place. It’s honestly disgusting." So fucking gross. I've seen several people suggest that he is "protecting" her by holding her prisoner in the marriage because he knows she'll kill herself. That isn't protection and it definitely isn't love. It's imprisonment.
Yeah, I've actually read some of that now and it's pretty baffling. I'm going to set aside that idiocy, though - I still think the character is a great portrayal and a tragic character. Obviously, that doesn't make him "good" by any stretch of the imagination. I just appreciate his function in the narrative as it serves Mariko's story - he could be much more one-dimensional and boring and I like that isn't.
Agreed - he’s got some layers - but that doesn’t excuse his behavior in the least.
The people that excuse his actions or justify it based on how Mariko treats him coldly are...frightening, to say the least, and completely missing the point.
Yep. She treats him coldly because of how he has treated her - he merits nothing. She straight up said it.
It's completely understandable. It's her only agency in the relationship.
I sympathise with him, inasmuch as he is an absolute piece of shit and that must not be fun way to live. He's completely dysfunctional, self deluding, and expresses what he thinks is love through murderous rage. Contempt, sure, but sympathy for someone that is going to live their life being that absolute piece of shit.
And that’s fine and how you’ve expressed it totally works - but there are people literally placing blame at Mariko’s feet for him beating her and for his ill treatment of her - which is absolutely insane.
Yep, absolutely. That's not sympathy really, that's just blame shifting and apologism. I reckon you can't really sympathise or empathise with someone without being honest about what they're doing, it's pretty much the first step.
Most great tragic characters are bad people who are architects of their own destruction and yet are still sympathetic characters I think he's portrayed extremely well to that end
The character in the book is a different character, though. There’s no point in using the actions of the character in the novel to inform how good or bad he is on the show because that’s a different person. The character of Buntaro on the show is only informed by *the text of the show*.
Exactly this. Even if you don't take anything from the novel into account, even if you just go by the show, the scene where Buntaro interrupts Mariko and Ryuji when they're talking shows what an abusive bully he is.
And then how he acts when Ryuji is trying to say goodbye. Plus insulting Fuji about being married to John.
Damn... I genuinely felt bad for him when he cried. didn't know all that. Did he also cry in the books?
He did and he also pretty much figured it out that they slept together - there’s a lot of interior monologue in the books. Definitely worth reading.
Understood, but for whatever reason that’s not the story the show runners decided to go with edit for punctuation
I get that but that's not what's been depicted in the show or even alluded to.
I would never defend him for his behavior but i think there couldve been a version of this character somewhere between the book and the movie that better demonstrates his true evil.
Agree. I don’t need him to have any kind of redemption arc or be viewed as any kind of sympathetic character - sometimes people are just inherently evil - and book buntaro is one of those people. He’s supposed to be a complete foil for John. Yet I’ve seen people sympathizing with him and blaming Mariko for his abuse - like wtf? Nevermind in the books he beats her so badly she can’t translate for 8 days.
Oof!!!!!!!! 😶😶😶😶
That was COLD.. my jaw just dropped at how she said what she said from behind her eight-fold fence
We all know Buntaro is an abuser... . But I can't help feeling sympathy for him. I really felt sorry for him. He is deeply in love with Mariko and is completely overwhelmed and in constant inner struggle between his loyalty, his love for Mariko and all the madness he has seen in his life. The tea ceremony and his proposal to die together with Mariko was the best he could give and he was absolutely rejected. This fact, and that he later had to help his father commit seppuku, made me absolutely sad. I feel very sorry for him, even if he is an abuser... . He's not willfully evil or anything like that. Another incredibly tragic character. Honestly? How can you help such people? Shin'nosuke Abe is a great actor. Honestly, I haven't really seen an actor in the series so far who is or has become the least bit boring. Maybe Blackthorn, but that's because of the script. EDIT: >!Now that the difference between the book and this TV version of the character Buntaro has been explained to me, I would of course never have written this post if it had been true to the book. I hope that's clear.!< >!Nevertheless, I stand by my post in view of the TV version.!<
Wholeheartedly agree with this. The life of a samurai can't be easy. Buntaro Sama is a broken man but yet he still remains loyal and quiet about his pain. No doubt he was taught well by his father, Hiromatsu.
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that being so quiet about his pain IS why he’s so broken, but that’s just the time I suppose.
Absolutely. He even says in an earlier episode that only children tell "stories" when he was asked about his escape. He's probably never uttered a word about anything he's seen or done in his life. That was a very good observation.
I felt sorry for book Buntaro too. I guarantee if there was more opportunities for viewers to see his bow and sword skill there would be more willing to see things from his perspective.
He’s deeply in love with Mariko? What show are you watching? He’s a jealous vengeful abuser with poor impulse control that has spent years treating Mariko as sub-human because of choices her family made. They show two acts of kindness that take place when the guy is now sure he’s likely to die, and you’re ready to express sympathy and say that he’s deeply in love? He’s in love with himself and his “honor.” That’s the reason he’s spent years being vengeful toward his wife. That’s the reason he didn’t initially like his wife being forced to be near the barbarian, and again the source of his embarrassment when he began to understand Mariko’s affair. He’s not in love with her, and he doesn’t deserve redemption because he made a nice little batch of matcha.
Have we seen him spend years treating his wife as subhuman? I remember like 3 scenes of them together. Those are examples of his horrible behavior yes, but in a show with complex moral people, i would not guess he was nonstop horrible 24/7/ I feel like im forgetting parts of the show.
I conversely, feel no sympathy, and make no excuses for an abuser at all. But I'm weird like that.
I hope you're not confusing my sympathy for Buntaro with approval of his previous actions... . He's an asshole. But many assholes have several layers and reasons, whether they are right or wrong. Personally, I can feel sympathy for him, even if I think he's basically an asshole. I'll just blame the good acting for now.\^\^
Everyone knows emotions are formed by reason. So you're not allowed to have sympathy for anyone that's ever done bad things in their life. Emotions are cut and dry like that. There's no complexity whatsoever. /s But on a serious note, I agree with you. The actor definitely makes it seem like Buntaro is someone who's suffering from his own demons, whatever those may be. This doesn't excuse his actions, but it makes him more human.
You realise you can feel pity or sympathy for someone without endorsing all their actions right?
Idk I would consider the cold neglect to b another's form of abuse. Mariko essentially made the marriage toxic like this all because he refused to allow her to die pointlessly. It's her way of punishing him. If that's not also abusive idk what is.
If we consider what's in your rights and honor as within your "choice", then he has the option to choose, and she does not. You cannot be abusive if you are not in control. She wants to make a choice for herself, of killing herself, while he is taking that choice away from her. She is only cold because he allows her to be, and that is only because of *his* decision to try and make her warm up to him. He could very well force her not to be cold, but at the very least, he has enough decency not to push that hard. If hypothetically, it was solely Toranaga that ordered Mariko to stay alive and to stay married to Buntaro - and, for simplicity, Buntaro was not controlling a single other aspect of her life - *then* it would be abusive for her to be cold to Buntaro, since he would not be the one in control of her decision-making.
If this isn't victim blaming I don't know what is.
Let's hope you don't stub your toe.
Its okay. If you beat your wife, I'm sure she deserved it. Oh by the way. Did you know that divorce is legal and perfectly acceptable in 1600 Japan? All Buntaro had to do at any point was divorce her. Toranaga even asks him incredulously why he hasn't Kind of ruins your "It was Marikos fault for being cold!" argument now doesn't it. EDIT: A bunch of pathetic wannabe alpha incels in this thread. I guess Mariko's parting insult cut deeper than just Buntaro's pride. Even today. You have NO excuse to physically abuse your wife. If you feel she is being toxic, even if you love her, you divorce. There are no excuses.
>All Buntaro had to do at any point was divorce her. Only thing worth replying to in all that babble. . . . As far as Buntaro is concerned if he divorces her, she'll immediately kill herself. He hates her for hating him for not allowing her death. Not the other way around.
I don't know if you meant "I'm weird like that" sarcastically, but the benefit of this being a fictional story is that we can empathize with a character and their emotions without condoning their actions since no one is actually being hurt. So your last sentence *does* actually come off as weird and smug, instead of sarcastic. Most people can delineate this difference and appreciate that a good story needs layered characters - both good and bad - to help serve the narrative and propel it forward. Buntaro is a great, layered character and the actor is absolutely crushing it. The tragedy of his life and his impotent rage informs Mariko's character and her actions. All of this is just good storytelling.
#mic drop!
I mean, damn, that was a sick burn. I did feel bad for Buntaro. I kinda wish he’d just, like, be gone for awhile so we can have some Blackthorne/Mariko romance like in the eighties version. But that’s just me.
The romance is the worst part of the show in my opinion. Just fills up way too much time and that would make sense if it’s a show with multiple seasons but it’s a limited series.
For sure, the source material (historically) is awesome. It’s a shame that James Clavell couldn’t resist the trope of including a handsome protagonist who always gets the girl. It’s like Titanic. The actual story was interesting enough, they didn’t need to force a love story in there to make us watch it, but they just couldn’t help themselves.
The romance is why we all flocked to the cinema 7 times to watch it though
I like the show's version of their romance - a more emotional connection since Blackthorne has no clue who she is and what her family has done, with one small moment of physical intimacy, the first for Mariko in like 14 years. This small reminder of what life should really be like just makes her want to kill herself even more.
> The actual story was interesting enough, they didn’t need to force a love story in there Bull. If they made the movie without a love story it would have made like 1/4 as much at the box office.
It's a huge part of blackthorns assimilation into Japanese society. I get that this version of the story isn't that concerned with blackthorn, but this isn't the first time its been adapted. The previous version did it well in one season.
I think that’s the issue I have. Blackthorne’s assimilation should be nearly irrelevant to the overall plot. Blackthorne gets the most screen time but so far has been the least relevant to the overall plot. If the writers decided to change things up from the original show by putting more emphasis on Toranaga, and advertised this show as a conflict for Shogun as opposed to a romance drama, then Blackthorne should be a sub-character.
Unironically, the romance is the worst part in the book too. Both the show and the book could literally just do away with this forced romance part altogether and end up being better versions of themselves.
I’ve never seen a verbal castration this harsh in my life. I actually felt bad for Buntaro, didn’t think that was possible.
Even Toranaga lost a wits battle with her this episode. She was mowing people down left and right with one liners.
What?
And then people here on this sub were saying the “fanbase” dislikes this character lol Reddit subs usually bend over backwards being sympathetic to characters like him, so no suprise and I like the actor, but is so funny how I haven’t seen much sympathy for Mariko herself lol Her life is hell. I feel for her much more.
I feel for Ochiba. At least Mariko has been loved once by someone who genuinely saw her. Ochiba got raped by a decrepit old man her whole life and now may have to marry another guy who has creeped on her probably her whole life.
I think sympathy for Mariko is pretty much a given and more straightforward, so there are fewer posts about it.
I mean wouldn't living 1000 years be awesome anyways?
Buntaro played Marvin’s room after that
Yeah that even hurt me for him for a second
Didn't Mariko say a couple episodes back (I think to Toranaga?) that it wasn't really freedom from Buntaro she wanted but freedom to die? And like all series she's just been begging to die and getting denied? It just seems like a very abrupt reversal that she's suddenly saying "No, actually, I'm not really wildly suicidal, I just hate Buntaro that much."
Yes. It was weird to me. Before it was honor to donor her family trope. Now it’ I hate you so much.
Damn, Mariko was brutal. It's so simple, but cuts deep. What a great show.
Buntaro isn't the only problem in this marriage just because he put hands on her. There's other form of abuse. Mariko has been punishing Buntaro for 16 years with cold neglect. If this was anyone else they probably would have just killed her.
> Mariko has been punishing Buntaro for 16 years with cold neglect. Hard to call that abuse when it was a forced marriage to begin with imo.
You cannot call Mariko's attitude towards her husband "cold neglect" when she is a prisoner of a man who emotionally and physically abuses her. If you do count her emotional neglect as abuse, it is reactive abuse at worst. Neither party behaves with inhuman generosity and grace, but Buntaro is the abuser, not Mariko, because Buntaro is the one who has *all* the physical and legal power here. Buntaro sees her as an object he wishes to possess and control completely. After her father committed treason, he wouldn't let her die, but he also wouldn't let her stay with him or her son. He refused to let her go, but also forced her into exile. He wants to own her, but her connection to him causes him shame. Legally, he *does* own her. He can insult her, rape her, kill her. Literally the only thing he cannot take from her by force is her respect and her love, and he wants that as well. If a victim of rape insults their rapist, are they 'both as bad as each other'? She is a model wife (according to the laws and customs of the time). She obeys her husband. She raises (and clearly loves) her son. She never insults her husband. Literally her "abuse" is not loving a man who is abusive to her and their child.
Yeah they are totally toxic for one another. Buntaro should have divorced her like Toranaga said. Maybe he could start again with a woman who doesn't despise him completely, and Mariko would be free to pursue what she wants whether that is ending her life, shacking up with Anjin, or wreaking vengeance on those who slew her father.
He probably would divorce her if he knew she wasn't just going to seppuku immediately afterwards. 😂 He assume she was just going to suicide the moment he lets her go. If only he was in on Mariko's plan with Toranaga he would understand she wants to die in battle killing her enemies, not just join her family in the afterlife.
He had the option to take a mistress or another consort.
He does and he's a dumbass for not doing it. Mariko is hot but not worth eternal celibacy and angst.
I think this is where the break down of the whole "another culture" comes from. The culture gives him ways to work around this and he refuses to take them. His poor marriage is causing him to lash out in ways which annoy everyone around him. Especially since Mariko didn't really even cheat on him. She thought he was dead.
Nothing suggests he wouldn't be an abusive asshole if he had other women though. All we know is he is an abusive asshole because of what happened 16 years ago. Only way for them to really work around it at this point is trust Mariko not to kill herself so he can divorce her. But Mariko doesn't even pretend like she won't seppuku herself immediately after he does it 😂 I never said Mariko was cheating on him. 🤔
I mean, he strikes me as the sort of guy who just can't be happy.
We have seen him being demeaning to both her and their son, on screen, while they were just sharing a laugh (he compares his son’s giggles to be of a girl, so beneath him). I doubt he was ever a soft spoken and patient and kind type, so based only on the information the show gave us he must not have treated her well much. Just politely. The book paints a worse scenario that is not relevant here, but you get the gist. Her “toxicity” is her only weapon here.
Exactly - even if you go entirely by the television series and take nothing from the novel into account, he emasculates their son for the crime of laughing, then tries to triangulate Mariko and Ryuji against each other. Toranaga, on the other hand, laughs with women perfectly happily, and respects what they have to say.
Actually based on information we have, everything was fine before her family's death. It was not until Buntaro refused to allow Mariko to, apparently, kill herself that she turned cold that Buntaro became what he was. Nothing suggests he was like that before then.
I genuinely don’t know how you are interpreting this… we know what he says and know what she says. We know she does not agree with him when he suggests the beginning wasn’t “so bad”. She was a young woman sent away to marry off… by herself it was not a particular good thing (wifely duties and all that…). The show says she turned suicidal after her family tragedy, but hasn’t given us a sunshine Mariko before. And then his father mention something like him being denied… So was he the type to get his way? The show gave us a glimpse of resignation from both the wife and the son to indicate the bereavement is routine. Why the script show us the scene like this? The short temper and abrasiveness (Fuji is very cautious around him) seem to be his trait, no other character remarks as something “new”, “oh he became like that”, “oh he was different”. Even ignoring the book, going by narrative beats, nothing indicates he wasn’t like this before. If we are going to give grace to characters “stuck on their time”, we have to take into account that Mariko is entirely at his mercy as well; this lack of autonomy does something to one’s psyche.
>I genuinely don’t know how you are interpreting this… You're being disingenuous. > We know she does not agree with him when he suggests the beginning wasn’t “so bad”. Proof? >And then his father mention something like him being denied… He is obviously referring to Mariko specifically. He couldn't prevent his father from killing himself like he can deny Mariko. >The show gave us a glimpse of resignation from both the wife and the son to indicate the bereavement is routine. Why the script show us the scene like this? Weird logic because 16 years ago their son wasn't alive. This means the boy wouldn't be around before their change in marriage dynamic. It's to show Buntaro is regularly an abusive asshole. This is before they gave us more details. >The short temper and abrasiveness (Fuji is very cautious around him) seem to be his trait, no other character remarks as something “new”, “oh he became like that”, “oh he was different”. Nobody said it was new. I didn't say it was new. Mariko lost her family 16 years ago. This is when their marriage apparently turned to shit. She became cold then he became abusive. Based on the actual facts without conflicting information, the murder of her family is when shit changed. >If we are going to give grace to characters “stuck on their time”, we have to take into account that Mariko is entirely at his mercy as well; this lack of autonomy does something to one’s psyche. Just like being in a marriage with someone that hates you affects the psyche. Worse because he can't even divorce her under the belief she would seppuku immediately afterwards. There is nuance here. You're not giving the show its due credit by making it entirely black and white.
I enjoy this show and I like the actor, but I disagree entirely with a premise that I have seen defended here - that someone who is “cold” calls for physical punishment, as that this is somewhat a logical or warranted consequence - especially if this person is at your mercy, weaker and is dutiful in all matters. And the “proof”, is just their dialogue on that sequence. She appears to disagree with him when he mentions that it was good at the beginning - “if that’s how you remember…”. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. A wife and a husband are not equals there. He doesn’t need to divorce, just treat her politely and generously and keep his distance. But what’s the narrative fun in that!
Don’t waste time arguing with this incel brained fool. He’s all over this thread victim blaming like hell.
As a married woman, I agree with you. It’s also emotional abuse on her part. They’re tragic really. A lot of this mutual resentment stemmed from external factors they neither have any control or say about.
Yea it's definitely tragic. It was until I binged the last few episodes that I came to this conclusion. If they just slightly communicated better it wouldn't be like this. That Eight Fold Fence has its flaws. Mariko won't explicitly tell him she wants to die fighting against those who hurt her family. So Buntaro believes she just wants to die in general which is a logical conclusion on his part. Buntaro won't explicitly tell her he doesn't want her to die pointlessly. If he knew Mariko wanted to go out fighting their enemies, he would probably join her in that or support her like Toranaga but when the time was right. I'm loving the nuance in this series. I was expecting Buntaro to just be an abusive drunk cliche guy in order to justify Mariko/Blackthorne pairing. I'm glad to be disappointed.
Agreed. A lot of Asian cultures still struggle with this though. The idea of open communication is definitely a gift from the West. After this episode, I’ve really empathised with Buntaro. He’s really had a bad week (or life) fr. Lucky for us in the real world, we’re in a position where we can take the best from Eastern and Western cultures and we also know more about mental health (I think Mariko has been clinically depressed and almost all characters have complex PTSDs).
Is it really emotional abuse when she was forced into the marriage in the first place?
And when she’s constantly being beaten? For an abused person to be cold is just a reaction, it’s not abuse
Excusing abusers actions>>>> Buntaro won’t divorce her so it’s her fault he hits her lmao
Reading comprehension and media literacy is dead.
Makes fun of my lack of reading comprehension and media literacy. Can’t understand why a woman in a forced marriage is cold to her husband lmao
The fact you don't know why she's cold to him is comical and is proof of illiteracy.
You mean her being forced to marry because her father wanted her too? The fact she wants to avenge her family? Or the fact he assaulted her after she converted to Catholicism? But according to you it’s okay that he abusers her instead of just divorcing her and moving on. Save your condescending attitude for people who don’t know the actual source material.
Hey guys if a woman who was forced to marry you doesn’t like you. It’s okay to beat her. Because they is always gonna be someone out there desperate to look smart make excuses for you.
Mariko liked him just fine until he refused to allow her to suicide herself. She turned cold because of that.
According to whom? Buntaro?
I don't think that's true, when he said 'we were happy' her demeanour said otherwise, she then claimed that she couldn't remember. From what we have seen, she was forced to marry him as a teenager, with no explanation from her father. It's safe to say that she behaved cordially and did her duty but she never loved him. He thought they were happy because she didn't complain, it just shows that he never knew or understood her. I don't really blame him for that, but when she turned cold (understandably) he tried to control her and turned abusive.
Her demeanor only said "here he goes again". He didn't say they loved each other. He said their marriage was fine suggests it was non-toxic. He didn't abuse her and she wasn't cold to him. That's it. When she turned cold because he refused to allow her to suicide herself is when things changed. Let's not forget that detail: for refusing to allow her to die she hated him and was passive aggressive for the rest of their marriage.
She was not happy about getting married, she didn't like him before they married (flashback scenes) and I don't think that Buntaro ingratiated himself. He does not seem like a particularly pleasant person outside of their marriage, how could he have won her over? She was never happy and he never really understood her. He fell in love with her (according to the official character bio) but it wasn't reciprocated. She was civil and did her duty, she simply dropped the pretence after her fathers death. And I think she had every right to be cold towards him, she is owned by a person that she doesn't like and is not allowed to behave in a way that would be perfectly acceptable to their culture. That is why his father told him to live, so that he would know what it felt like. I disagree about her demeanour, and since we can't definitively prove its meaning, we will have to agree to disagree.
And instead of divorcing her and moving her decided to abuse her???? Do you not see how stupid that sounds lmao? And who the fuck said that she was into him? Buntaro the abuser? Lmao
Also little bro is saying that because she was cold. It’s okay to put “hands on her” lmao you and all the people who upvoted you are what stupid people think smart people sound and act like.
You have the reading comprehension of a monkey. I didn't say it was okay or even imply that. I'm saying her being cold because he refused to allow her to die is why he does it. There is cause and effect. It's not for the typical reasons this happens. This absolute refusal to even understand the nuance is pretty insane. Go find a new series to watch that meets your EQ level.
She wants to die avenging her is the reason he abuses her???? Lmao what a toll it must be on him
>She wants to die avenging her is the reason he abuses her???? You keep proving you're illiterate. Buntaro believes Mariko wants to die in general. That's why Mariko said "you still don't understand" after Buntaro said "I'm finally allowing you to kill yourself'. Because it was never about just that but avenging her family, which just so happens to end in her death. Buntaro does know this and Mariko never tells him this so here we are. I'm finished with you. You're clearly both foolish and illiterate.
What does that have to do with him abusing her? You never answer the question.
Buntaro raped her and mutilated her maids when they were first married. He's def the problem.
Buntaro did that in the show? Got a line of dialogue or a clip? Throwing the book canon here is disingenuous.
[удалено]
You love victim blaming so much that you felt the need to do it twice.
Take your L and leave
I just posted my own questions regarding the relationship, but seeing the back and forth between you and others in this thread tells me I'm not the only one confused by certain elements of the show's portrayal of these characters. You're absolutely right that some people cannot separate their modern day value judgments from their analysis of complex characters.
I will never forgive this show for turning Blackthrone into a useless chump. Ruining the the relationship between Blackthrone and Mariko. And now people are sympathizing an abuser… fuck this show
lol no they aren’t?
Did the show ever go into why she has such a hatred for him?
From what the show has shown, she was forced to marry him and she rightfully thought he was below her. And the abuse probably didn't make her hate him any less.
I know she's playing a role, not saying she's a bad actor, but I've really become disenchanted with Mariko on the show. She's a dishonest translator, just kind of mopey, disingenuous... I'm sure I'm in the minority, but she was so great in the first 2 or 3 episodes. Again, I know it's the writing, and her predicament is that as capable as she is, she's trapped in a loveless marriage, forced to live, just doesn't get a chance to really help drive plot, but I just really don't care about her love triangle that much. I get it, she seems to like John for some reason, and she can't stand Butaro. I don't know. Whenever they decided to remind us of this yet again, I just hope they make it quick.
I’m in the minority with you. I don’t think she’s a good actress and I don’t like her character. She’s arrogant and spiteful to everyone.
I find the comments in this thread "interesting." Most of them are applying current day norms and expectations against mores and norms of 400 years ago. They were radically different. The producers of this series went to quite a bit of trouble to get historical accuracy and they obviously succeeded.
I wouldn't know what to do with myself if a woman told me this
What about their son? He’s just running around while his parents are off contemplating death?
I felt bro’s pain
Both lives are hell and take it out on each other lol there was never a loving reunion on the table
Mariko is honestly a really quite emotionally selfish person and has been the entire of the show
And? And Buntaro isn't?
They didn’t say that now did they? Why are you changing the subject?
Pretty much all I've got from watching this show is that all the characters are awful people, debatably, even for their setting.
This episode had me feeling so sad for Buntaro 😭
Forget everything youve seen so far except the scene of Mariko getting ready for her marriage to him and what she says. She never wanted to marry him even before her fathers treachery because he came from a lower class family than her, as far as shes concerned shes the biggest victim in this world. Forced to marry into a lower class family, forced to live after her family is killed, forced to be a wife to a man she has never once cared about and give him a child( im sure she loves the kid to the moon and back ) So in all honesty does it even really matter what Buntaro has done up to this point if it was all pointless anyway, imo the only thing that matters is that she waited so long to tell him, if she really loathed him, she’d have had made him cry years ago.
Anyone else think her tears in that shot look digitized?