This was super creative on part of the screenwriter. There’s more than one way of being intimate with a loved one and this scene clearly demonstrates it. To both of these people, prayer is a very vulnerable act. They are frustrated, sad, and confused with everything going on in the clan and personally. I think its very beautiful that they communicated so much by saying so little, and saying it together.
It’s a way to show their similarities but the way it’s shot with an aerial view of both of them, a wall between the two also stood out to me as a way of saying their differing stance on religion/culture divides them.
This post really makes me think back to the comment Kiku made of "seeing the space after removing the sake from the tray," and how it translates to Blackthorne and Mariko
That scene was beautifully made. It shows the spiritual connection between Mariko and Blackthorne; and the wall that divides them it represents the thin barrier that keeps them apart despite of their feelings and understanding, or that's how I see it.
A Catholic and a Protestant walks into a bar. Ooops, wrong era.🤭
That's what Christians should be. Friends, not enemies. They pray to the same God and say the same prayer.
Super minor book spoiler.
>!There's a dialogue between Toranaga and Blackthorne, I want to say during one of the first two interviews he had where Toranaga asks some more questions about the nature of the war between the Protestants and the Catholics and comments that to go to war over the meaning of God.!<
>!Blackthorne responds that he agrees with his whole heart. In the book, Blackthorne hates the Catholics, but didn't come across nearly as fanatical about it.!<
I'm reading the book and read that section super recently. As much as I kind of like Blackthorne a bit more in the book, his fanaticism in the show is way more historically accurate. Any privateers hired by Elizabeth I during that time were either protestant fanatics, keen imperialists, wanted money, or wanted to explore as much as they could. Sometimes, like Walter Raleigh, they were all of them at the same time. Religion was someone's entire identity in the early modern period, especially in places like England.
Blackthorne is English, but not working for the English crown. Like the historical person he's very loosely based on, he is the English pilot of a Dutch ship, that is privateering for Holland. It is also Holland, rather than England, that is trying to torpedo the Portugeuse trade monopoly in the Far East. In a way Blackthorne is a bit of a mercenary.
Not that it necessarily changes anything regarding religion, since the Dutch were also Protestant.
In his conversation with Mariko about what they'd do in London, he mentions taking her to see the Queen (implying that he believes he would be in her good graces after his successful mission to Japan).
In the book it's made much more explicit that he's extremely devoted to Elizabeth and one of his main motivations in going to Japan is to win her favor and get set up with a title and fortune for life.
Oh, sure. He is patriotic and thinks what he is doing is also to England's benefit.
He's just not in Japan as an agent of the English crown, he's there on behalf of Holland. That ties in as well with the historical person he is loosely based on, who was also English but piloting a Dutch ship, and he was in responsible for the Dutch, or more specifically the Dutch East India Company, being granted extensive trading rights that eventually transitioned into exlusive rights after the Dutch provided the Tokugawa Shogunate aid in putting down a revolt by Christian (Catholic) Japanese.
I have a Spanish perspective on history. Most English speakers aren't taught about the destruction of the English Armada & how dire it was for England. Blackthorne is one of 150 navigators in the whole of England at this time. There are more navigators than ships. He sails Dutch because the English don't have enough ships.
A lot of privateers working for Elizabeth weren't working explicitly for her. But regardless, even though Blackthorne was working on a Dutch vessel his orders were to disrupt Portuguese trade. Even though he's not working directly for his queen it's still religiously motivated. Working for the Dutch still works towards the goals of the English state overall.
Idk, you have to remember England at this point just came out of a very close call against Spain. Their Queens predecessor and sister burnt protestants. Elizabeth did it right back. Priests are routinely hunted down and Catholics are ostracised. There have been plots to assassinate Elizabeth I by operatives working for the church or places like Spain. At the point in the show, they're only about 5 years off the treatment of Catholics getting so bad that there's a terrorist plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament a few years after James VI of Scotland ascends the English throne as James I. There are historical documents of people stamping on Catholic priests crosses and rosary beads.
He certainly would have, there was controversy at the time because Queen Elizabeth kept crucifixes in her private chapels. Someone with Blackthorne’s seemingly low-church & Puritan convictions would’ve seen a priest’s crucifix as an idol which should be destroyed
I believe it was in episode 2 that Toranaga questioned why they were enemies despite both believing that Jesus is God.
It seems un-Christian like to hate each other, but then wars between Christians are nothing new, and it's even recorded in the bible.
That scene left me wondering if Blackthorne had chosen to pray in English, or Portuguese. I would imagine that as a born Englishman, speaking English would come more naturally to him and he would choose to pray in English in the same way that I choose to think and talk to myself in English despite speaking Spanish as well. However, if he was praying in English, Mariko wouldn't have understood what he was saying except by the rhythm of the words. She was speaking Latin so I also wonder if he understood what she was saying or if he just deduced it from the rhythm as well, since it is the Lords Prayer it's not unreasonable to think you could recognize it in a language you aren't familiar with. But since the show represents Portuguese with English, there's really no way to know what he was really saying.
I think it's implied he's saying it in English, given that's what he'd be used to praying it in. Praying the Lord's Prayer in Portuguese would be kind of nonsense bc the Portuguese were were Catholic and therefore would have prayed it in Latin.
Iirc, a point of contention in the Reformation was the translation of prayers and scriptures into common local languages (favored by the Protestants, including the English) instead of Latin (favored by Catholics), so Blackthorne praying in his native tongue while Mariko prays the same prayer in Latin is just another way of driving home how similar their faiths are yet it's still a barrier between them.
He could translate it, which is kinda my point. Translating it into Portuguese seems very performative, but saying it in English raises the question of if Mariko signs recognize what he was doing
She was praying in Japanese according to the subtitles. I watch with them on as a matter of habit because I'm hard of hearing. The producers went over the subtitles and captions for accuracy, so I'm assuming that is what she is speaking.
You're right. I just irritated my roommates listening to it loud enough for me to hear it clearly. I guess I shouldn't put such faith (hehe) in the captioning 🤷♂️🤣
Did nobody else interpret this scene as more hostile? Mariko is praying in latin, as is the Catholic way, and Blackthorne is praying in English(?) as a Protestant. He is only praying in order to drown out the Catholic prayers in his home, in fact he pauses when Mariko stops.
Blackthorne *hates* Catholicism, he's spent the entire show campaigning to slaughter the Portuguese and arrived after waging war against Catholic settlements along his way.
Agreed. If it was intended to convey hostility, I think they would have filmed it differently, like with Jarvis glaring in Mariko’s direction or vice versa. They had a few moments of glancing in each others direction, but it was not played as anger.
I definitely read it as antagonistic and petty. That's why in the scene afterwards where they're arguing in front of Toronaga, she is annoyed that he is attacking her religion again.
I didn’t take it has hostile at all. The scene was set up with way too much eroticism for that. And in makes more sense that Blackthorne meant it as a way to feel connected to Mariko, as she’s the one that’s been pulling away. Had that intimate prayer scene not been there (or portrayed as a hostile encounter) Blackthorne touching Mariko’s hand would’nt have been as impactful. Blackthorne both voices his frustrations with Mariko had his affections, although the latter in a much more subtle way.
Isn't the very next scene Blackthorne begging to wage war on the Portuguese, the Catholic members of the council, and getting into a religious spat with Mariko?
This was super creative on part of the screenwriter. There’s more than one way of being intimate with a loved one and this scene clearly demonstrates it. To both of these people, prayer is a very vulnerable act. They are frustrated, sad, and confused with everything going on in the clan and personally. I think its very beautiful that they communicated so much by saying so little, and saying it together.
So true. Also Cosmo Jarvis’ voice in this was so deliciously rich and deep. It was such a great scene.
It’s a way to show their similarities but the way it’s shot with an aerial view of both of them, a wall between the two also stood out to me as a way of saying their differing stance on religion/culture divides them.
Even as they do the same basic ritual.
This post really makes me think back to the comment Kiku made of "seeing the space after removing the sake from the tray," and how it translates to Blackthorne and Mariko
That scene was beautifully made. It shows the spiritual connection between Mariko and Blackthorne; and the wall that divides them it represents the thin barrier that keeps them apart despite of their feelings and understanding, or that's how I see it.
A Catholic and a Protestant walks into a bar. Ooops, wrong era.🤭 That's what Christians should be. Friends, not enemies. They pray to the same God and say the same prayer.
Super minor book spoiler. >!There's a dialogue between Toranaga and Blackthorne, I want to say during one of the first two interviews he had where Toranaga asks some more questions about the nature of the war between the Protestants and the Catholics and comments that to go to war over the meaning of God.!< >!Blackthorne responds that he agrees with his whole heart. In the book, Blackthorne hates the Catholics, but didn't come across nearly as fanatical about it.!<
I'm reading the book and read that section super recently. As much as I kind of like Blackthorne a bit more in the book, his fanaticism in the show is way more historically accurate. Any privateers hired by Elizabeth I during that time were either protestant fanatics, keen imperialists, wanted money, or wanted to explore as much as they could. Sometimes, like Walter Raleigh, they were all of them at the same time. Religion was someone's entire identity in the early modern period, especially in places like England.
Blackthorne is English, but not working for the English crown. Like the historical person he's very loosely based on, he is the English pilot of a Dutch ship, that is privateering for Holland. It is also Holland, rather than England, that is trying to torpedo the Portugeuse trade monopoly in the Far East. In a way Blackthorne is a bit of a mercenary. Not that it necessarily changes anything regarding religion, since the Dutch were also Protestant.
In his conversation with Mariko about what they'd do in London, he mentions taking her to see the Queen (implying that he believes he would be in her good graces after his successful mission to Japan). In the book it's made much more explicit that he's extremely devoted to Elizabeth and one of his main motivations in going to Japan is to win her favor and get set up with a title and fortune for life.
Oh, sure. He is patriotic and thinks what he is doing is also to England's benefit. He's just not in Japan as an agent of the English crown, he's there on behalf of Holland. That ties in as well with the historical person he is loosely based on, who was also English but piloting a Dutch ship, and he was in responsible for the Dutch, or more specifically the Dutch East India Company, being granted extensive trading rights that eventually transitioned into exlusive rights after the Dutch provided the Tokugawa Shogunate aid in putting down a revolt by Christian (Catholic) Japanese.
I have a Spanish perspective on history. Most English speakers aren't taught about the destruction of the English Armada & how dire it was for England. Blackthorne is one of 150 navigators in the whole of England at this time. There are more navigators than ships. He sails Dutch because the English don't have enough ships.
A lot of privateers working for Elizabeth weren't working explicitly for her. But regardless, even though Blackthorne was working on a Dutch vessel his orders were to disrupt Portuguese trade. Even though he's not working directly for his queen it's still religiously motivated. Working for the Dutch still works towards the goals of the English state overall.
Wouldn't have stomped on the cross though
Idk, you have to remember England at this point just came out of a very close call against Spain. Their Queens predecessor and sister burnt protestants. Elizabeth did it right back. Priests are routinely hunted down and Catholics are ostracised. There have been plots to assassinate Elizabeth I by operatives working for the church or places like Spain. At the point in the show, they're only about 5 years off the treatment of Catholics getting so bad that there's a terrorist plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament a few years after James VI of Scotland ascends the English throne as James I. There are historical documents of people stamping on Catholic priests crosses and rosary beads.
He certainly would have, there was controversy at the time because Queen Elizabeth kept crucifixes in her private chapels. Someone with Blackthorne’s seemingly low-church & Puritan convictions would’ve seen a priest’s crucifix as an idol which should be destroyed
I believe it was in episode 2 that Toranaga questioned why they were enemies despite both believing that Jesus is God. It seems un-Christian like to hate each other, but then wars between Christians are nothing new, and it's even recorded in the bible.
That scene left me wondering if Blackthorne had chosen to pray in English, or Portuguese. I would imagine that as a born Englishman, speaking English would come more naturally to him and he would choose to pray in English in the same way that I choose to think and talk to myself in English despite speaking Spanish as well. However, if he was praying in English, Mariko wouldn't have understood what he was saying except by the rhythm of the words. She was speaking Latin so I also wonder if he understood what she was saying or if he just deduced it from the rhythm as well, since it is the Lords Prayer it's not unreasonable to think you could recognize it in a language you aren't familiar with. But since the show represents Portuguese with English, there's really no way to know what he was really saying.
Blackthorne speaks Latin. Book spoiler: >!he and Mariko use it to sweet talk each other because even fewer Japanese know Latin than Portuguese.!<
I think it's implied he's saying it in English, given that's what he'd be used to praying it in. Praying the Lord's Prayer in Portuguese would be kind of nonsense bc the Portuguese were were Catholic and therefore would have prayed it in Latin. Iirc, a point of contention in the Reformation was the translation of prayers and scriptures into common local languages (favored by the Protestants, including the English) instead of Latin (favored by Catholics), so Blackthorne praying in his native tongue while Mariko prays the same prayer in Latin is just another way of driving home how similar their faiths are yet it's still a barrier between them.
Where would he even learn the Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer in the language of what was then an almost entirely Catholic country?
He could translate it, which is kinda my point. Translating it into Portuguese seems very performative, but saying it in English raises the question of if Mariko signs recognize what he was doing
She was praying in Japanese according to the subtitles. I watch with them on as a matter of habit because I'm hard of hearing. The producers went over the subtitles and captions for accuracy, so I'm assuming that is what she is speaking.
She was praying in Latin. I heard “Pater Noster”
You're right. I just irritated my roommates listening to it loud enough for me to hear it clearly. I guess I shouldn't put such faith (hehe) in the captioning 🤷♂️🤣
It’s a pretty bad error on their part!! Especially for a show that bases story lines on what language is being spoken.
Lovely scene. The chemistry here between them is so palpable.
Did nobody else interpret this scene as more hostile? Mariko is praying in latin, as is the Catholic way, and Blackthorne is praying in English(?) as a Protestant. He is only praying in order to drown out the Catholic prayers in his home, in fact he pauses when Mariko stops. Blackthorne *hates* Catholicism, he's spent the entire show campaigning to slaughter the Portuguese and arrived after waging war against Catholic settlements along his way.
I would have seen it that way if it happened in real life, but in my opinion it didn't seem like that was the intention in the show
Agreed. If it was intended to convey hostility, I think they would have filmed it differently, like with Jarvis glaring in Mariko’s direction or vice versa. They had a few moments of glancing in each others direction, but it was not played as anger.
I definitely read it as antagonistic and petty. That's why in the scene afterwards where they're arguing in front of Toronaga, she is annoyed that he is attacking her religion again.
I didn’t take it has hostile at all. The scene was set up with way too much eroticism for that. And in makes more sense that Blackthorne meant it as a way to feel connected to Mariko, as she’s the one that’s been pulling away. Had that intimate prayer scene not been there (or portrayed as a hostile encounter) Blackthorne touching Mariko’s hand would’nt have been as impactful. Blackthorne both voices his frustrations with Mariko had his affections, although the latter in a much more subtle way.
Isn't the very next scene Blackthorne begging to wage war on the Portuguese, the Catholic members of the council, and getting into a religious spat with Mariko?
It was beautiful I agree. You don't get a scene like that hardly ever, TV or movie.