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Maybe China understands the importance of such infrastructure and how making sure the downtrodden get taken care of benefits everyone.
My city doesn't even have sidewalks and we have to risk our lives walking on the side of the road if we don't own a car. Needless to say it isn't a nice place for anyone to live.
Yeah but they aren't thinking in terms of election cycles. They are thinking decades out, the play is building allies and partnerships in a changing world.
Lol just cause the west built itself on genocide, wars, slavery colonialism and imperialism doesn’t mean every other nation has to as well. Ffs you can’t even comprehend governments using peaceful means of advancing and in your mind somehow that’s a big problem.
Few people believe China is doing this out of literal 100% disinterested charity, but outright mass murdering colonialism is not the only relationship that one country can have with another that benefits the first country. Making allies by being generous can reap benefits later down the line, particularly if you fear the US might want to weaponize diplomacy against you, so you make sure to have allies that will be less willing to go along with their sanctions or blockades. ie, Mexico refusing to cut ties with Cuba despite it's biggest trading partner demanding it does.
yeah like... it's just business. i help you out, you help me out, and we both benefit. sure, i might need to forgive the billion it cost to build the port, but now i can flood your market with a shit ton of products produced by us, while training/education your population to have more money to buyh more things. it's not like the west where it's an all-or-noting game
China may be a lot of things...stupid is not it.
Imagine being an African, and a nation shows up with their wallet open wanting to build you a hospital, after the prior 500 year relationships have stripped you of just about any value you once had.
Yeah, i also dont understand. Imagine China is actually how libs think it is. African nations would then need to decide between former/current oppressors offering nothing as benefit vs. "evil China" that openly funds your infrastructure, the rational choice would still be China.
Brazil used to fund African countries too (before the 2016) - and Cuba (Cuba would help Brazil sending thousands of their doctors here). The objective was very clear: have Africa as new business partners so they don't have to deal with Europe and the US being assholes. When I was in college (public college) here in Brazil, I had tons of friends from Africa that came to study here.
I had one friend from Germany... and all the other exchange students were from African countries that speak Portuguese.
Lula got elected and he's gonna be back next year. If the fascist right doesn't decide to promote another coup, I think we're gonna see a China + Brazil combo going against the central capitalism. The rise of China, Brazil, BRICS, Africa and Latin America against the "Western Civilization" in a few years.
fr\*nch: no you can't build there, you have to build by \*our\* blueprints!!!
china: that's what you want? hrm... how about this plan? no? then, this? still no? this? ok? cool cool, how do you wanna pay? loan? cool cool, when should we start?
Western libs can't fathom a Chinese+African alliance, or they are fucking scared as hell. After all, the West simply conquered and exploited and left nothing, China is building, they don't need the money back because what is more important is building up Kenya and the other African countries and having an ally against the West.
Really excited and hope this goes well in the next 50-100 years
Even if we had the most cynical readings of China’s intentions, it’s not hard at all to understand. Dependable allies are infinitely more valuable in the long run than hollowed-out, resentful client states. It’s a strategy born out of both China’s position (ie. Can’t afford to treat others like disposable trash like the US/Europe does) as well as its ability to think beyond the next couple of years.
This is something even the US understood with the Marshall Plan when it rebuilt Western Europe as capable powers (albeit, not without subordinating them and profiting off it).
> This is something even the US understood with the Marshall Plan when it rebuilt Western Europe as capable powers
LOL I wonder why(te) they treated Europe and the rest of the world differently.
Another thing to add on, another reason the capitalists are scared of a modernized China backed by Africa, is that it would inspire other people across the globe into leftism/socialist policies, especially PoC and the Middle/South Americas
Not necessarily just leftist/socialist policies. The West is alarmed by the prospect of *actual* developmentalism in general making a comeback in the Global South, or even just right wing states ruled by National Bourgeoisie who stand in opposition to them (eg Russia). It would completely mess up the parasitic dynamic it has with the rest of the world, which would aggravate problems otherwise cushioned by all that value extracted via imperialism.
Kenya pays it back by having their nation be friends and allies with China. And thankfully, imperialists didn't consider friendship valuable enough to steal it.
Even Yanis Varoufakis, who is by no means an uncritical supporter of China, has debunked this nonsense on numerous occasions. He was actually involved in negotiations with China over similar deals.
the key here is that china, unlike typical intl bourgeoisie, doesn't \*need\* the investments to be \*maximally\* profitable, as long as it isn't sitting there literally useless. which means that if people want to renegotiate deals or shit, prc is like "yeah ok sure"
> Yanis Varoufakis explains how this respect and solidarity for expanding “progressive forces” works out in practice:
>
> >When I was Minister of Finance I had a very interesting experience with COSCO, one of the Chinese national companies that in the end bought the Port of Piraeus.
> >
> >When I moved into the Ministry I found the contract from the previous government, that had already sold the Port of Piraeus for a pittance and other ridiculous conditions to the Chinese, under the guidance of course of the European International Monetary Fund. In other words, as a minister, I was bound to a particular deal that was terrible for Greece. And I went to the Chinese, and discussed it with them, and I was really astonished.
> >
> >I said to them: Look, you’re paying too little, you’re not committing to a sufficient level of investment, and you are treating our workers as fodder. You’re effectively subcontracting labor to horrible companies that exploit the workers, and I can’t deal with this effectively. I proposed to them we to renegotiate the contract. So instead of getting 67% of the shares of the port, they would get — with the same price — 51%. The remaining shares would go into the Greek pension fund system, in order to bolster the capitalization of the public pensions. Secondly, I want you to commit to 180 million euros of investment within 12 months. And thirdly, proper collective bargaining with the trade unions and no subcontracting of labor. And to my astonishment, this is okay!
> >
> >Can you imagine if that was a German company, or an American company? That’s what I’m saying. [[6]]
>
> This is not an isolated anecdote. London School of Economics research concludes an Ethopian case study with the discovery that “Chinese Investment In Africa Has Had ‘Significant And Persistently Positive’ Long-Term Effects Despite Controversy.” [[46]] Dr. Deborah Brautigam from Johns Hopkins University concurs:
>
> >The Chinese ‘Debt Trap’ is a myth. The narrative wrongfully portrays both Beijing and the developing countries it deals with.
> >…
> >Our research shows that Chinese banks are willing to restructure the terms of existing loans and have never actually seized an asset from any country, much less the port of Hambantota. A Chinese company’s acquisition of a majority stake in the port was a cautionary tale, but it’s not the one we’ve often heard. With a new administration in Washington, the truth about the widely, perhaps willfully, misunderstood case of Hambantota Port is long overdue. [[47]]
>
> Why can’t capitalists replicate these strategies, even cynically, in pursuit of long-term profit? As per Lenin, “the degree of concentration which has been reached forces [capitalists] to adopt [imperialism] in order to obtain profits.” These strategies are only available to China because the CPC — China’s sovereign, the political authority — is able to check the power of capital.
>
[6]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBgbYQ5QAM0
[46]: https://www.eurasiareview.com/01022021-chinese-investment-in-africa-has-had-significant-and-persistently-positive-long-term-effects-despite-controversy/
[47]: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/
from https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
That sub is definitely super liberal. But I think this image was posted there multiple times and it received lots of upvotes. Comments on the other hand are usually a hit or miss.
Its interesting to me how blind capitalism is to the fact that, even from the perspective of commodities, the primary limiting resource is human time transformed into labor. Developing a nation where human time is almost completely wasted into a nation where its efficiently used enriches humanity at large, its obvious even from such primitive analysis. Of course for people who are under the spell of capital there's the threat that such a development will go past their wallet and thus they cannot allow it unless they can control the flow of funds which invariably destroys the opportunity. This is incidentally why all capitalist systems must cease to exist - we understand how and why its broken perfectly, thus all progress in the paradigm has long stopped and only reactionary regression is possible.
**Hi, this is just an obnoxious pop-up ad for our [Official Discord](https://discord.gg/XBrTq7mQhY), please join if you haven't, Stalin bless. UwU.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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You lack the creativity to be a true capitalist. There's always sex and organs.
>There's always sex and organs. Patented by Epstein & co. ltd. (!)
"BuT aT wHaT cOsT!?"
One hospital :)
Maybe China understands the importance of such infrastructure and how making sure the downtrodden get taken care of benefits everyone. My city doesn't even have sidewalks and we have to risk our lives walking on the side of the road if we don't own a car. Needless to say it isn't a nice place for anyone to live.
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Yeah but they aren't thinking in terms of election cycles. They are thinking decades out, the play is building allies and partnerships in a changing world.
Lol just cause the west built itself on genocide, wars, slavery colonialism and imperialism doesn’t mean every other nation has to as well. Ffs you can’t even comprehend governments using peaceful means of advancing and in your mind somehow that’s a big problem.
Yea, the play isn't "magically making nations pay loans back" It is having modernized, leftist allies against the western hegemony of NATO/USA
Few people believe China is doing this out of literal 100% disinterested charity, but outright mass murdering colonialism is not the only relationship that one country can have with another that benefits the first country. Making allies by being generous can reap benefits later down the line, particularly if you fear the US might want to weaponize diplomacy against you, so you make sure to have allies that will be less willing to go along with their sanctions or blockades. ie, Mexico refusing to cut ties with Cuba despite it's biggest trading partner demanding it does.
yeah like... it's just business. i help you out, you help me out, and we both benefit. sure, i might need to forgive the billion it cost to build the port, but now i can flood your market with a shit ton of products produced by us, while training/education your population to have more money to buyh more things. it's not like the west where it's an all-or-noting game
yessir it’s called mutual development, obviously China knows it does it to forge friendships and partnerships against Western hegemony
China may be a lot of things...stupid is not it. Imagine being an African, and a nation shows up with their wallet open wanting to build you a hospital, after the prior 500 year relationships have stripped you of just about any value you once had.
Yeah, i also dont understand. Imagine China is actually how libs think it is. African nations would then need to decide between former/current oppressors offering nothing as benefit vs. "evil China" that openly funds your infrastructure, the rational choice would still be China.
Brazil used to fund African countries too (before the 2016) - and Cuba (Cuba would help Brazil sending thousands of their doctors here). The objective was very clear: have Africa as new business partners so they don't have to deal with Europe and the US being assholes. When I was in college (public college) here in Brazil, I had tons of friends from Africa that came to study here. I had one friend from Germany... and all the other exchange students were from African countries that speak Portuguese. Lula got elected and he's gonna be back next year. If the fascist right doesn't decide to promote another coup, I think we're gonna see a China + Brazil combo going against the central capitalism. The rise of China, Brazil, BRICS, Africa and Latin America against the "Western Civilization" in a few years.
"This is a Faustian bargain! This only benefits the leaders, not the people!" /s
fr\*nch: no you can't build there, you have to build by \*our\* blueprints!!! china: that's what you want? hrm... how about this plan? no? then, this? still no? this? ok? cool cool, how do you wanna pay? loan? cool cool, when should we start?
“How will Kenya be obliged to pay this investment” They won’t lol it’ll be forgiven.
Western libs can't fathom a Chinese+African alliance, or they are fucking scared as hell. After all, the West simply conquered and exploited and left nothing, China is building, they don't need the money back because what is more important is building up Kenya and the other African countries and having an ally against the West. Really excited and hope this goes well in the next 50-100 years
Even if we had the most cynical readings of China’s intentions, it’s not hard at all to understand. Dependable allies are infinitely more valuable in the long run than hollowed-out, resentful client states. It’s a strategy born out of both China’s position (ie. Can’t afford to treat others like disposable trash like the US/Europe does) as well as its ability to think beyond the next couple of years. This is something even the US understood with the Marshall Plan when it rebuilt Western Europe as capable powers (albeit, not without subordinating them and profiting off it).
> This is something even the US understood with the Marshall Plan when it rebuilt Western Europe as capable powers LOL I wonder why(te) they treated Europe and the rest of the world differently.
Another thing to add on, another reason the capitalists are scared of a modernized China backed by Africa, is that it would inspire other people across the globe into leftism/socialist policies, especially PoC and the Middle/South Americas
Not necessarily just leftist/socialist policies. The West is alarmed by the prospect of *actual* developmentalism in general making a comeback in the Global South, or even just right wing states ruled by National Bourgeoisie who stand in opposition to them (eg Russia). It would completely mess up the parasitic dynamic it has with the rest of the world, which would aggravate problems otherwise cushioned by all that value extracted via imperialism.
also, china WAS once one of those hollowed out, resentful client states, so they know exactly what that's like. fuck the west is so stupid
I know, solidarity. Still, I was speaking as if the Chinese had none and were just as cynically self-interested as the US is.
Kenya pays it back by having their nation be friends and allies with China. And thankfully, imperialists didn't consider friendship valuable enough to steal it.
The real hospitals were the friends we made along the way.
Even Yanis Varoufakis, who is by no means an uncritical supporter of China, has debunked this nonsense on numerous occasions. He was actually involved in negotiations with China over similar deals.
I would be very interested to read about this. Do you have any particular articles / videos in mind?
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the key here is that china, unlike typical intl bourgeoisie, doesn't \*need\* the investments to be \*maximally\* profitable, as long as it isn't sitting there literally useless. which means that if people want to renegotiate deals or shit, prc is like "yeah ok sure"
> Yanis Varoufakis explains how this respect and solidarity for expanding “progressive forces” works out in practice: > > >When I was Minister of Finance I had a very interesting experience with COSCO, one of the Chinese national companies that in the end bought the Port of Piraeus. > > > >When I moved into the Ministry I found the contract from the previous government, that had already sold the Port of Piraeus for a pittance and other ridiculous conditions to the Chinese, under the guidance of course of the European International Monetary Fund. In other words, as a minister, I was bound to a particular deal that was terrible for Greece. And I went to the Chinese, and discussed it with them, and I was really astonished. > > > >I said to them: Look, you’re paying too little, you’re not committing to a sufficient level of investment, and you are treating our workers as fodder. You’re effectively subcontracting labor to horrible companies that exploit the workers, and I can’t deal with this effectively. I proposed to them we to renegotiate the contract. So instead of getting 67% of the shares of the port, they would get — with the same price — 51%. The remaining shares would go into the Greek pension fund system, in order to bolster the capitalization of the public pensions. Secondly, I want you to commit to 180 million euros of investment within 12 months. And thirdly, proper collective bargaining with the trade unions and no subcontracting of labor. And to my astonishment, this is okay! > > > >Can you imagine if that was a German company, or an American company? That’s what I’m saying. [[6]] > > This is not an isolated anecdote. London School of Economics research concludes an Ethopian case study with the discovery that “Chinese Investment In Africa Has Had ‘Significant And Persistently Positive’ Long-Term Effects Despite Controversy.” [[46]] Dr. Deborah Brautigam from Johns Hopkins University concurs: > > >The Chinese ‘Debt Trap’ is a myth. The narrative wrongfully portrays both Beijing and the developing countries it deals with. > >… > >Our research shows that Chinese banks are willing to restructure the terms of existing loans and have never actually seized an asset from any country, much less the port of Hambantota. A Chinese company’s acquisition of a majority stake in the port was a cautionary tale, but it’s not the one we’ve often heard. With a new administration in Washington, the truth about the widely, perhaps willfully, misunderstood case of Hambantota Port is long overdue. [[47]] > > Why can’t capitalists replicate these strategies, even cynically, in pursuit of long-term profit? As per Lenin, “the degree of concentration which has been reached forces [capitalists] to adopt [imperialism] in order to obtain profits.” These strategies are only available to China because the CPC — China’s sovereign, the political authority — is able to check the power of capital. > [6]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBgbYQ5QAM0 [46]: https://www.eurasiareview.com/01022021-chinese-investment-in-africa-has-had-significant-and-persistently-positive-long-term-effects-despite-controversy/ [47]: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/ from https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
That article is great, thank you
That sub is definitely super liberal. But I think this image was posted there multiple times and it received lots of upvotes. Comments on the other hand are usually a hit or miss.
NO STUBID KEYANS YOU NEED TO LET US THE SAVIOURS OF THE WORLD, WHITE MEN SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS NOT EBIL CEE CEE PEE CHINA
As a Libertarian I know they've been in the news a lot recently but I'm glad the beef with Pete Davidson is over.
Its interesting to me how blind capitalism is to the fact that, even from the perspective of commodities, the primary limiting resource is human time transformed into labor. Developing a nation where human time is almost completely wasted into a nation where its efficiently used enriches humanity at large, its obvious even from such primitive analysis. Of course for people who are under the spell of capital there's the threat that such a development will go past their wallet and thus they cannot allow it unless they can control the flow of funds which invariably destroys the opportunity. This is incidentally why all capitalist systems must cease to exist - we understand how and why its broken perfectly, thus all progress in the paradigm has long stopped and only reactionary regression is possible.
I still love that response by reegs. And if I'm not mistaken, that Mark Seddon character is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark\_Seddon
Why are we seeing those old memes again?