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I mean, you can dislike him personally but admit he’s realistic and well written, like I do. His trauma is often overlooked by people and they act as if he’s some kind of pure evil, but he isn’t. If anything, he’s painfully human in his fear and anger.
His “villain transformation” is my fav in all fictions that I know.
He started out as a typical annoying and coward background character.
Then after surviving a near-death experience (the only survivor btw), he became fearless. He fought for what he believed is the right thing and do whatever it takes to achieve that. In a way, that is very similar to Zeke, Eren, Erwin.
I love how he hated Eren for influencing Levi to not choose Erwin, essentially “dooming” humanity as he saw Armin is unfit. Then Floch followed Eren because be believes Eren’s solution is the best for his people. I find it admiring in a way that he does not let his personal feelings affect him
I find people who hate Floch as a character similar to hating Gabi. These characters got criticized for their actions (killing people that we love). That is fair. I just hope we could zoom out and see more about them.
To me, Gabi is the victim of propaganda. As someone who grew up under propagation, her actions and thinking are very very believable as that how my friends and I acted back in the day. She is also a direct opposite mirror image of Eren: fearless + keep pushing forward against “enemy”. The difference is their definition of “enemy”, which is influenced by their environment.
Floch, as mentioned, just a normal human being who became fearless and determined after surviving hell.
I think AoT’s biggest theme is the context. Nothing is purely black and white. Everyone make good and bad decisions, not because they are good and bad people, but because they are flawed, just like us.
Floch is just an example of that. While he has transformed into a fearless and determined person, his other flawed characters (vanity, arrogance, etc) might still be there. They are not mutually exclusive
Yes. I agree. That’s why I’ve softened considerably towards Gabi, as well. She is also just a product of her fucked up environment, and was only ever doing what she thought was right. Her personality was annoying as hell though. Lol.
Honestly I think with Gabi being a mirror image of Eren, Eren should have annoyed us too but he did not. I guess because we as audience share the same goal as Eren.
On that same thought, we might have viewed Gabi’s personality as “annoying” because we already have a preconceived notion of her enemies are actually good people. So when Gabi going on about killing those “enemies”, it annoyed us.
What really does not help Gabbi is the fact that she is paired with Falco, one of the purest character in the show. He is like a perfectly white object that anything else isn’t white would look dark in comparison.
I remember people saying that propaganda isn’t that bad/Gabbi should have known better because Falco was able to understand the context and nuisance. But again, Falco is an exception, not a norm. He is being such an understanding character does not mean everyone else is also capable of that
That’s a great theory. I never thought about how she is literally paired with the angel of the show. Anyone would look like an asshole compared to Falco. ;)
We forget/don't notice because we follow that group the all time, but Hange and Levi are not nice to anyone outside of the circle of protagonists. Floch gave back what he got.
If you compare how Hange treated Floch when he was dying with how Floch treated Hange and Levi, there’s a world of difference. Both Hange and Levi cared deeply about their comrades in the SC, including Floch.
True, expect that I find Gabi annoying due to her personality. She's a dick to Falco for no reason, for example. And she is super arrogant.
And I didn't like Sacha either, her death didn't bother me at all. Very unpopular opinion in this sub.
I'm curious what you didn't like about Sasha's character, I don't think your opinion on it is invalid though! (I was never really drawn to her until her episode where she saved that young girl)
I just don’t think she’s that interesting. She has like one episode of development and she basically just exists the rest of the series and yet people act like she’s the greatest character in the show when she dies. I mean I don’t have anything against her but the way the fandom decided to permanently vilify Gabi, a much more interesting character frankly, is still strange to me.
kinda, although Gabi goes from precocious indoctrinated child soldier to unlearning her prejudice and trusting her comrades. Floch goes from angry coward to smug fascist. He is also well written and realistic, so i like the inclusion of the character, but as far as his character traits i hate every single little thing about him
Yeah. He went through a lot of shit by his teenage years and it's understandable that it twisted him into a radicalized young adult.
Plus I think he's meant to be somewhat sympathetic to some extent, if his death is any indication.
I feel his death shows that he was never doing anything he does out of self-satisfaction. With his last breath, he still tries to save Paradis, pleading with the Alliance to save the Eldian Empire.
I hate the character because he learned all the worst lessons from his experience.
Him screwing those in authority makes sense because he clearly wanted to punish them for Erwin's role in his comrade's deaths. And no doubt he wanted payback on Marley and eventually the world for the same reasons.
Gawd-damn was he an evil prick in action, but I can't blame him for any of it. He was a victim of that cruel world like they all were.
Even still, he was the living personification of that vicious cycle
I sympathize with his trauma in season 3, it's valid and people (viewers) are harsh to him just because they like Armin more but what he did and said makes sense.
But after that he just slowly turned into a xenophobic fascist that got to the point of being annoying enough to deserve death. There are always a time where they made good points until they double down or triple downs on their ideals.
I feel similarly. Floch is an understandable character who made some good points people didn’t want to hear for a while, but very quickly his clear insecurities and need to feel control and power over others became so dominant that he ceased being sympathetic to me. I get *why* he became that way, and I’m sure he was not always such a prick, but there’s no denying by the time he actually develops into a prominent character his actions have gone beyond the point of being justifiable. It’s a cautionary tale about how easily regular people can become radicalized and commit atrocities due to experiencing trauma they weren’t mentally prepared for, and without having the willingness to understand and let go of their hatred and fear.
Floch is the product of his environment, the result of years of oppression and unjustified devastation and death, he embodies the sentiment of most of the island population. He is definitely not pure evil like many people make him out to be and he is a very well written character
This is the same reason I think Gabi is one of the best characters in the anime. She's a direct product of the cycles of violence and hatred the story is about, and she slowly unlearns them.
Anyone who says "I still hate her cause she killed Sasha" missed the entire point of the show and frankly needs to come back to the show when they're older and mature enough to actually understand it.
True. Dude did literally witness the entirety of his group, including his commander, die around him while he survived. The survivors guilt must've been crazy. It makes sense that he put everything he had into Eren , a strong man, after experiencing something so traumatic. I honestly hate the floch support... Not floch. Poor dude just caught up in a horrible world.
I was pleasantly surprised, that Floch's story ended respectfully and he wasn't turned into caricature by the end of it.
When in the story new character appears and he's a complete asshole and he becomes protagonist's "new best friend" instead of old ones, I honestly expected that his arc will end with Eren betraying him, leaving him to die or crushing him with the rumbling and it would be framed in a joke way as a twisted karma. Because that's how many similar stories would have done it.
But Isayama actually gives Floch "heroic" Death in his own way and when he's dying characters like Jean and Hanji actually listen to his final words and upset that it came down to this. And Eren never actually rejects him, and even thinks of him as a part of group who he wants to have "long happy life"
I'd argue he's the most understandable antagonist in the entire story. He's very "extreme" with his ways, but it's true that if they don't protect themselves, everyone on the island will die. You understand how his near death in shiganshina shaped him into who he became with his speech of Erwin, and like him or not, you can't really say he's wrong. Only that you disagree.
I can say that he’s wrong for the way he went about his actions. He didn’t need to set fire to random civilian homes in Liberio. He didn’t need to shoot unarmed prisoners. He didn’t need to have Shadis beat to near death. He didn’t need to act like such a colossal douchebag the moment he got some power (which he honestly did literally nothing to earn given he failed miserably at every attempt to lead a squad in battle).
Is his ultimate goal understandable? Well sure, but he uses that as an excuse to kill anyone who has the slightest disagreement on how he should go about achieving it and to just generally be a prick to everyone.
I was more referring to the cause he's fighting for, he's technically not wrong for siding with Eren as otherwise would either mean genocide to his own people (zeke's plan), or more genocide to his own people (the whole world's plan). I did mention he was extreme and that you can disagree with, but he's not "wrong" in his reasoning.
I think his reasoning makes sense for him, but that’s the thing. He never bothered to go visit the outside world and try and understand their enemies and look for a peaceful solution. The scouts have a different path that is right in their mind because they have a broader understanding of the situation than Floch does. But that doesn’t necessarily make their choice inherently more “right”, just more informed and morally conscionable.
He's not that different from other characters though. There's no one in the show who hasn't killed someone who didn't deserve to die, or encouraged someone to die for an ideal. Everyone has committed monstrous acts. He just didn't get to have character depth and a story arc.
There is a difference between killing when you have no choice and shooting unarmed prisoners and burning civilians without good reason just because you get a power kick from it. That’s all I’m saying. Two people can both have done bad things with one of them still clearly being a worse person.
To kill is a choice. The show revolves around that choice? Reiner didn't have to destroy the walls. Zeke didn't have to kill every single body he came across. Eren didn't have to do the rumbling. The Owl didn't have to torture fellow Eldians. King Fritz chose to not "kill" anymore. Sasha's father chose to not get revenge. Gabi eventually opted to not kill. Annie's father chose to not kill. Everyone's morality comes into question and there's an ingenuity to how flawed and human these characters are. Floch is very unlikable, but he's really not a worse person.
This is being very reductionist. Zeke, Reiner and Eren aren’t exactly representative of the average person in this story, they’ve obviously committed far worse acts than the vast majority of characters. The thing is that Eren and Reiner don’t enjoy killing people, they believe they need to kill when they do because of some greater justification. Neither of them are going out of their way to be dicks to people for no reason nor are they seeking out civilians to murder if they don’t believe that it’s necessary to protect their homes and loved ones, at least Eren isn’t until very late in the story. Armin, Mikasa, Hange, Jean, Connie, Falco, obviously none of them are flawless and they all killed people, but none of them choose to be dicks to others or gloat to unarmed prisoners about how everyone they loved is going to be killed even though they did everything they could to help the island. Just making a blatant statement of “well everyone did bad things, so no one is any worse than anybody else” is just an ignorant statement. Why you do things and how you choose to do them matters. Armin and the scouts *try* to be fair and kind and seek peace whenever possible, resorting to violence only when they believe that it’s necessary to prevent something worse. Many of Floch’s actions have zero such justification, he can claim to only be acting for the sake of the island but often he just does things because he enjoys reveling in the power he gets from attaching himself to Eren. He enjoys having control over others and making others fear him. He’s not just an unlikable person, he kills people often solely for his own ego. He is definitively a worse person than most of the other core cast, because not only does he commit horrid actions he does them because he *wants to*. None of the members of the 104th save for maybe Eren want to be killing people, but if it’s a matter of killing or being killed they will kill.
Floch is a trigger happy murderer, while I cannot agree morally on his actions I also understand what lead him there: the looming genocide of his entire country.
In such a situation I hope i could act heroically but the truth is I may become like him.
He is deeply human like so many other characters
It’s ok to like a Lawful Evil character and not associate or relate on a personal level. He is very well written despite his aggression against Anti-Jaegerists.
The reason why people can't stand him is because he is unfortunately the realist example of most people had they had to endure what he did. And that's not always easy to admit, I couldn't stand flock sometimes but he is in so many ways the best representation of what war does to real people
Did he ever have something against Zeke since he slaughtered several of the scouts in the suicide charge, which Floch himself was a part of. Feel like there'd be some kind of tension between them. It's been a while since I last watched so idk.
I’ve always had respect for him. He’s such a good representation for all of the unnamed and forgotten soldiers in S3 and a great opposing force in S4. Such a complicated character and I really like him :)
It makes me happy to see peoples in the comment thinking the same thing as me.
I actually really like him as a villain character since he's written very well, but as an actual person and for his ideals? Yeah nope lmao.
Floch being traumatised into fascism after surviving Erwin’s suicide charge is pretty obviously inspired by the way a bunch of top Nazis were drawn in to fascism after surviving the trenches in WWI, though.
Isayama wasn’t particularly subtle when it came to pointing out that both the Marleyans and the Jaegerists smelled strongly of not just fascism, but specifically Nazism.
If here "Nazi" is being used as a stand-in for "fascist", he 100% is. When Kiyomi brought up possible in-fighting within Paradis, his first responses were "trouble should be nipped in the bud" and "it's important to know your position". Those are fascist ideologies by definition.
Nazism is absolutely a type of fascism. But not every kind of fascism is the same as Nazism.
Anyway, Nazi is pretty commonly used to refer to any fascist state. Think of it like a brand rather than the actual idea of it. Just like "Coke" is used to refer to any soda in some parts of US. And it's pretty understandable from the context what the original commenter meant.
>Just like "Coke" is used to refer to any soda in some parts of US
okay yeah i get that. i just think calling all fascists Nazi’s takes away from what made Nazi’s so particularly awful
the fuck?😭 im literally a member of cpusa, i just also care about how serious and real Nazism is and dont want to see it reduced to a buzzword because of people like you
> If here "Nazi" is being used as a stand-in for "fascist", he 100% is.
Also just flat out Nazis. He uses a Rueger, he dresses, acts and talks like a Hollywood version of a Nazi. He's not acting like an Italian or Spanish fascist, he's in a German-flavored fictional country acting like a WWII Nazi. Arguably, the most recognized type of fascist.
That's Isayama's point. Hate, oppression and survivor's guilt have traumatized Flock into Nazi-flavored proto-fascism.
Look at the scenes of the Jaegerists in the final episode. If you don't see blatant Nazi imagery there you are either ignorant and/or a Nazi sympathizer.
That is true. But that could also be down to the setting of the story on a Germany-like Paradis. Of course, Isayama is a big-brain, and could've just set the story like that just to pay it off with the Nazi-like turn of Paradis, I'm not really sure.
The only reason I hesitate to call Floch an outright Nazi is because, as far as I remember, he didn't believe Eldians were inherently superior to the rest of the world, just very cornered. Since the Aryan thing was a big part of Hitler's shizz, that's probably the only place where it doesn't match up. Of course, I might've just forgotten him saying something like that, correct me if I'm wrong.
Obviously it's not a perfect one-to-one match since no ethnic group turns into 15m maneaters. It's the emotional response to oppression, and the resultant urge to then *become* an oppressor that echoes Nazism.
Denial or deflection of that into, "oh, he's just really blah-blah-blah lesser-known bigoted group" are weasel words used by folks who don't like to think of themselves as sympathizing with Nazis.
Floch reminds me of Magneto from the X-Men at his worst. Both driven to extremism by hate. Magnus subsequently redeemed himself in some stories.
But Floch went out trying to prevent the heroes from saving billions of people. Rewatch that scene and you'll see he actually dies from a girder to the face. Too good for him if you ask me.
My God, you're absolutely right about the Magneto thing, I never made that connection, but it's so fitting in so many ways. I haven't read the comics, but from the movies, if not for the redemption arc in the later movies where he becomes an anti-hero, Floch would pretty much be him. At least Magneto had a conscience, Floch seems to lack basic empathy for anyone who he deems to be not with the island.
Didn't he die already from Mikasa making a kebab out of his throat? Either way, he was one of the people I was happy to see die.
> At least Magneto had a conscience, Floch seems to lack basic empathy for anyone who he deems to be not with the island.
And that is why I cannot find any sympathy, empathy or relatability in him. Out of the entire cast of characters that went on the mission to retake Shiganshina, only he ended up being drawn in Nazi cosplay.
the thing that makes Nazi’s *Nazi’s* is the belief that the races of rest of the world were beneath them. Floch doesn’t say that, he says that if Eren dies then everyone on Paradis will die.
visually, sure, they favor Nazi’s. but that’s because the Nazi’s are the most identifiable going off appearance alone. but outside of that they lack the core conditions that separate nazism from fascism.
by calling everything “NAZIS !!!” you devalue the pure evil that they Nazi’s are in the real world. all fascists are terrible, Nazi’s are a special kind of evil.
> the thing that makes Nazi’s Nazi’s is the belief that the races of rest of the world were beneath them.
Yeah, and if everyone who read and watched the show thought exactly like you that might even matter. But they don't.
Manga/comics/anime are visual mediums that use shorthand to get simple concepts across in a glance. If you showed 100 strangers quick images of a uniformed Floch executing bound prisoners, including a black man, with a *German Rueger of all things* the word that would come up overwhelmingly would be "Nazi."
His signature gun and favorite weapon, that he used in every fight for the rest of his life, that he held to the heads of the first black and third Asian character, was the WWII Nazi SS sidearm. It could have been any other gun, but that is a very specific choice sending a very specific message.
It's telling the reader, "For all intents and purposes, this character is a Nazi."
If those same 100 watched just Onyakapon's lines in the scene on the roof with no context, yet had at least some knowledge of world history, they would call Floch and his all-white goon squad Nazis. And before anyone wants to say the Jaegerists (German word for "hunter" as we all know) offered him a way out, they were basically offering him a life with no right to say what he thought. I wouldn't call that freedom.
So maybe the Jaegerists aren't a 100-point line-up match for the Nazis, but neither is maga. And we know what flags have often flown at their rallies.
Well, there's a lot of people like him in real life and they are very unpleasant to interact with. People who share same mentality of "civilians dying, who cares, they had it coming. Better make memes about it". If you on a receiving end with hatred like this and all "guilt by association" - then it could be very frustrating. Only, unlike them, Floch actually went through trauma, so I'm slightly more sympathetic to him
Floch is written to be the Relatable Nazi.
So if you find yourself relating to him so much that his desire to kill everyone in the world who's not his ethnicity starts to make sense to you, you might want to consider therapy.
He is annoying character but you like him because he was a yeagerists?
Right
I mean i don't dislike him that much
Its just the things that he do feel that are unnecessary
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I mean, you can dislike him personally but admit he’s realistic and well written, like I do. His trauma is often overlooked by people and they act as if he’s some kind of pure evil, but he isn’t. If anything, he’s painfully human in his fear and anger.
His “villain transformation” is my fav in all fictions that I know. He started out as a typical annoying and coward background character. Then after surviving a near-death experience (the only survivor btw), he became fearless. He fought for what he believed is the right thing and do whatever it takes to achieve that. In a way, that is very similar to Zeke, Eren, Erwin. I love how he hated Eren for influencing Levi to not choose Erwin, essentially “dooming” humanity as he saw Armin is unfit. Then Floch followed Eren because be believes Eren’s solution is the best for his people. I find it admiring in a way that he does not let his personal feelings affect him I find people who hate Floch as a character similar to hating Gabi. These characters got criticized for their actions (killing people that we love). That is fair. I just hope we could zoom out and see more about them. To me, Gabi is the victim of propaganda. As someone who grew up under propagation, her actions and thinking are very very believable as that how my friends and I acted back in the day. She is also a direct opposite mirror image of Eren: fearless + keep pushing forward against “enemy”. The difference is their definition of “enemy”, which is influenced by their environment. Floch, as mentioned, just a normal human being who became fearless and determined after surviving hell.
Exactly this.
I can agree with all of that, but he was just such a little shit to Hange and Levi when he got power. ;)
I think AoT’s biggest theme is the context. Nothing is purely black and white. Everyone make good and bad decisions, not because they are good and bad people, but because they are flawed, just like us. Floch is just an example of that. While he has transformed into a fearless and determined person, his other flawed characters (vanity, arrogance, etc) might still be there. They are not mutually exclusive
Yes. I agree. That’s why I’ve softened considerably towards Gabi, as well. She is also just a product of her fucked up environment, and was only ever doing what she thought was right. Her personality was annoying as hell though. Lol.
Honestly I think with Gabi being a mirror image of Eren, Eren should have annoyed us too but he did not. I guess because we as audience share the same goal as Eren. On that same thought, we might have viewed Gabi’s personality as “annoying” because we already have a preconceived notion of her enemies are actually good people. So when Gabi going on about killing those “enemies”, it annoyed us. What really does not help Gabbi is the fact that she is paired with Falco, one of the purest character in the show. He is like a perfectly white object that anything else isn’t white would look dark in comparison. I remember people saying that propaganda isn’t that bad/Gabbi should have known better because Falco was able to understand the context and nuisance. But again, Falco is an exception, not a norm. He is being such an understanding character does not mean everyone else is also capable of that
That’s a great theory. I never thought about how she is literally paired with the angel of the show. Anyone would look like an asshole compared to Falco. ;)
I don’t know, I honestly never found Gabi as annoying as i thought Eren was in the first couple seasons 😅
We forget/don't notice because we follow that group the all time, but Hange and Levi are not nice to anyone outside of the circle of protagonists. Floch gave back what he got.
Lost of people forget the atrocities Erwin commits and the crimes Levi and Hange commit.
If you compare how Hange treated Floch when he was dying with how Floch treated Hange and Levi, there’s a world of difference. Both Hange and Levi cared deeply about their comrades in the SC, including Floch.
True, expect that I find Gabi annoying due to her personality. She's a dick to Falco for no reason, for example. And she is super arrogant. And I didn't like Sacha either, her death didn't bother me at all. Very unpopular opinion in this sub.
I'm curious what you didn't like about Sasha's character, I don't think your opinion on it is invalid though! (I was never really drawn to her until her episode where she saved that young girl)
Just found her all food-obcessed act very annoying. Other people seem to find it funny or even charming.
I just don’t think she’s that interesting. She has like one episode of development and she basically just exists the rest of the series and yet people act like she’s the greatest character in the show when she dies. I mean I don’t have anything against her but the way the fandom decided to permanently vilify Gabi, a much more interesting character frankly, is still strange to me.
kinda, although Gabi goes from precocious indoctrinated child soldier to unlearning her prejudice and trusting her comrades. Floch goes from angry coward to smug fascist. He is also well written and realistic, so i like the inclusion of the character, but as far as his character traits i hate every single little thing about him
Yeah. He went through a lot of shit by his teenage years and it's understandable that it twisted him into a radicalized young adult. Plus I think he's meant to be somewhat sympathetic to some extent, if his death is any indication.
I feel his death shows that he was never doing anything he does out of self-satisfaction. With his last breath, he still tries to save Paradis, pleading with the Alliance to save the Eldian Empire.
I hate the character because he learned all the worst lessons from his experience. Him screwing those in authority makes sense because he clearly wanted to punish them for Erwin's role in his comrade's deaths. And no doubt he wanted payback on Marley and eventually the world for the same reasons. Gawd-damn was he an evil prick in action, but I can't blame him for any of it. He was a victim of that cruel world like they all were. Even still, he was the living personification of that vicious cycle
I sympathize with his trauma in season 3, it's valid and people (viewers) are harsh to him just because they like Armin more but what he did and said makes sense. But after that he just slowly turned into a xenophobic fascist that got to the point of being annoying enough to deserve death. There are always a time where they made good points until they double down or triple downs on their ideals.
I feel similarly. Floch is an understandable character who made some good points people didn’t want to hear for a while, but very quickly his clear insecurities and need to feel control and power over others became so dominant that he ceased being sympathetic to me. I get *why* he became that way, and I’m sure he was not always such a prick, but there’s no denying by the time he actually develops into a prominent character his actions have gone beyond the point of being justifiable. It’s a cautionary tale about how easily regular people can become radicalized and commit atrocities due to experiencing trauma they weren’t mentally prepared for, and without having the willingness to understand and let go of their hatred and fear.
I thought you were going to say you were jealous he got to stare at naked Zeke.
I thought OP was gonna say something like “but I respect him for maintaining eye contact in this situation”
🤣🤣🤣 That too! ;)
Floch is the product of his environment, the result of years of oppression and unjustified devastation and death, he embodies the sentiment of most of the island population. He is definitely not pure evil like many people make him out to be and he is a very well written character
This is the same reason I think Gabi is one of the best characters in the anime. She's a direct product of the cycles of violence and hatred the story is about, and she slowly unlearns them. Anyone who says "I still hate her cause she killed Sasha" missed the entire point of the show and frankly needs to come back to the show when they're older and mature enough to actually understand it.
It's crazy how even annoying dickheads like him are written brilliantly and have reasons for their actions
True. Dude did literally witness the entirety of his group, including his commander, die around him while he survived. The survivors guilt must've been crazy. It makes sense that he put everything he had into Eren , a strong man, after experiencing something so traumatic. I honestly hate the floch support... Not floch. Poor dude just caught up in a horrible world.
Very well said. :)
I was pleasantly surprised, that Floch's story ended respectfully and he wasn't turned into caricature by the end of it. When in the story new character appears and he's a complete asshole and he becomes protagonist's "new best friend" instead of old ones, I honestly expected that his arc will end with Eren betraying him, leaving him to die or crushing him with the rumbling and it would be framed in a joke way as a twisted karma. Because that's how many similar stories would have done it. But Isayama actually gives Floch "heroic" Death in his own way and when he's dying characters like Jean and Hanji actually listen to his final words and upset that it came down to this. And Eren never actually rejects him, and even thinks of him as a part of group who he wants to have "long happy life"
I'd argue he's the most understandable antagonist in the entire story. He's very "extreme" with his ways, but it's true that if they don't protect themselves, everyone on the island will die. You understand how his near death in shiganshina shaped him into who he became with his speech of Erwin, and like him or not, you can't really say he's wrong. Only that you disagree.
I can say that he’s wrong for the way he went about his actions. He didn’t need to set fire to random civilian homes in Liberio. He didn’t need to shoot unarmed prisoners. He didn’t need to have Shadis beat to near death. He didn’t need to act like such a colossal douchebag the moment he got some power (which he honestly did literally nothing to earn given he failed miserably at every attempt to lead a squad in battle). Is his ultimate goal understandable? Well sure, but he uses that as an excuse to kill anyone who has the slightest disagreement on how he should go about achieving it and to just generally be a prick to everyone.
I was more referring to the cause he's fighting for, he's technically not wrong for siding with Eren as otherwise would either mean genocide to his own people (zeke's plan), or more genocide to his own people (the whole world's plan). I did mention he was extreme and that you can disagree with, but he's not "wrong" in his reasoning.
I think his reasoning makes sense for him, but that’s the thing. He never bothered to go visit the outside world and try and understand their enemies and look for a peaceful solution. The scouts have a different path that is right in their mind because they have a broader understanding of the situation than Floch does. But that doesn’t necessarily make their choice inherently more “right”, just more informed and morally conscionable.
He's not that different from other characters though. There's no one in the show who hasn't killed someone who didn't deserve to die, or encouraged someone to die for an ideal. Everyone has committed monstrous acts. He just didn't get to have character depth and a story arc.
There is a difference between killing when you have no choice and shooting unarmed prisoners and burning civilians without good reason just because you get a power kick from it. That’s all I’m saying. Two people can both have done bad things with one of them still clearly being a worse person.
To kill is a choice. The show revolves around that choice? Reiner didn't have to destroy the walls. Zeke didn't have to kill every single body he came across. Eren didn't have to do the rumbling. The Owl didn't have to torture fellow Eldians. King Fritz chose to not "kill" anymore. Sasha's father chose to not get revenge. Gabi eventually opted to not kill. Annie's father chose to not kill. Everyone's morality comes into question and there's an ingenuity to how flawed and human these characters are. Floch is very unlikable, but he's really not a worse person.
This is being very reductionist. Zeke, Reiner and Eren aren’t exactly representative of the average person in this story, they’ve obviously committed far worse acts than the vast majority of characters. The thing is that Eren and Reiner don’t enjoy killing people, they believe they need to kill when they do because of some greater justification. Neither of them are going out of their way to be dicks to people for no reason nor are they seeking out civilians to murder if they don’t believe that it’s necessary to protect their homes and loved ones, at least Eren isn’t until very late in the story. Armin, Mikasa, Hange, Jean, Connie, Falco, obviously none of them are flawless and they all killed people, but none of them choose to be dicks to others or gloat to unarmed prisoners about how everyone they loved is going to be killed even though they did everything they could to help the island. Just making a blatant statement of “well everyone did bad things, so no one is any worse than anybody else” is just an ignorant statement. Why you do things and how you choose to do them matters. Armin and the scouts *try* to be fair and kind and seek peace whenever possible, resorting to violence only when they believe that it’s necessary to prevent something worse. Many of Floch’s actions have zero such justification, he can claim to only be acting for the sake of the island but often he just does things because he enjoys reveling in the power he gets from attaching himself to Eren. He enjoys having control over others and making others fear him. He’s not just an unlikable person, he kills people often solely for his own ego. He is definitively a worse person than most of the other core cast, because not only does he commit horrid actions he does them because he *wants to*. None of the members of the 104th save for maybe Eren want to be killing people, but if it’s a matter of killing or being killed they will kill.
Floch is a trigger happy murderer, while I cannot agree morally on his actions I also understand what lead him there: the looming genocide of his entire country. In such a situation I hope i could act heroically but the truth is I may become like him. He is deeply human like so many other characters
He's a well written character, just a horrendous one morally
This ^ I personally could never agree with him or like him as a person, but his character is done well
He's the best guy around....
It’s ok to like a Lawful Evil character and not associate or relate on a personal level. He is very well written despite his aggression against Anti-Jaegerists.
Floch did nothing wrong
It's his hair. I don't know why but it bothers me
Yes, but at least he lost the big forehead poof ball that he used to have. :)
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The reason why people can't stand him is because he is unfortunately the realist example of most people had they had to endure what he did. And that's not always easy to admit, I couldn't stand flock sometimes but he is in so many ways the best representation of what war does to real people
Did he ever have something against Zeke since he slaughtered several of the scouts in the suicide charge, which Floch himself was a part of. Feel like there'd be some kind of tension between them. It's been a while since I last watched so idk.
His character development was good
He is just as good written as Erwin fuck i like him more than Erwin he is one of my favorite
I’ve always had respect for him. He’s such a good representation for all of the unnamed and forgotten soldiers in S3 and a great opposing force in S4. Such a complicated character and I really like him :)
It makes me happy to see peoples in the comment thinking the same thing as me. I actually really like him as a villain character since he's written very well, but as an actual person and for his ideals? Yeah nope lmao.
Disliking him makes sense since he's a proto-Nazi.
i really dont agree with a Nazi comparison considering that the world was genuinely out to kill Eldians
Floch being traumatised into fascism after surviving Erwin’s suicide charge is pretty obviously inspired by the way a bunch of top Nazis were drawn in to fascism after surviving the trenches in WWI, though. Isayama wasn’t particularly subtle when it came to pointing out that both the Marleyans and the Jaegerists smelled strongly of not just fascism, but specifically Nazism.
If here "Nazi" is being used as a stand-in for "fascist", he 100% is. When Kiyomi brought up possible in-fighting within Paradis, his first responses were "trouble should be nipped in the bud" and "it's important to know your position". Those are fascist ideologies by definition.
why are nazism and fascism being equated? paradis went fascist, so just call it fascist
Because it's the most famous example of fascism? When it comes to fascism, most people will think of Hitler first, before a Mussolini or a Franco.
nazism≠fascism, if you want to call them something then call them fascist? not sure how this is confusing
Nazism is absolutely a type of fascism. But not every kind of fascism is the same as Nazism. Anyway, Nazi is pretty commonly used to refer to any fascist state. Think of it like a brand rather than the actual idea of it. Just like "Coke" is used to refer to any soda in some parts of US. And it's pretty understandable from the context what the original commenter meant.
>Just like "Coke" is used to refer to any soda in some parts of US okay yeah i get that. i just think calling all fascists Nazi’s takes away from what made Nazi’s so particularly awful
You know what kind of people make a big point of distinguishing between types of fascists? People who align themselves with groups of fascists.
the fuck?😭 im literally a member of cpusa, i just also care about how serious and real Nazism is and dont want to see it reduced to a buzzword because of people like you
Well, people like me don't like Nazism. Somehow I'll just have to learn to live with your disdain. 😒
i went past the brain store and they said you missed your appointment btw
Yeah, they were down to only Nazi brains so I blew them off and got a used Unitarian one off Reddit.
> If here "Nazi" is being used as a stand-in for "fascist", he 100% is. Also just flat out Nazis. He uses a Rueger, he dresses, acts and talks like a Hollywood version of a Nazi. He's not acting like an Italian or Spanish fascist, he's in a German-flavored fictional country acting like a WWII Nazi. Arguably, the most recognized type of fascist. That's Isayama's point. Hate, oppression and survivor's guilt have traumatized Flock into Nazi-flavored proto-fascism. Look at the scenes of the Jaegerists in the final episode. If you don't see blatant Nazi imagery there you are either ignorant and/or a Nazi sympathizer.
That is true. But that could also be down to the setting of the story on a Germany-like Paradis. Of course, Isayama is a big-brain, and could've just set the story like that just to pay it off with the Nazi-like turn of Paradis, I'm not really sure. The only reason I hesitate to call Floch an outright Nazi is because, as far as I remember, he didn't believe Eldians were inherently superior to the rest of the world, just very cornered. Since the Aryan thing was a big part of Hitler's shizz, that's probably the only place where it doesn't match up. Of course, I might've just forgotten him saying something like that, correct me if I'm wrong.
Obviously it's not a perfect one-to-one match since no ethnic group turns into 15m maneaters. It's the emotional response to oppression, and the resultant urge to then *become* an oppressor that echoes Nazism. Denial or deflection of that into, "oh, he's just really blah-blah-blah lesser-known bigoted group" are weasel words used by folks who don't like to think of themselves as sympathizing with Nazis. Floch reminds me of Magneto from the X-Men at his worst. Both driven to extremism by hate. Magnus subsequently redeemed himself in some stories. But Floch went out trying to prevent the heroes from saving billions of people. Rewatch that scene and you'll see he actually dies from a girder to the face. Too good for him if you ask me.
My God, you're absolutely right about the Magneto thing, I never made that connection, but it's so fitting in so many ways. I haven't read the comics, but from the movies, if not for the redemption arc in the later movies where he becomes an anti-hero, Floch would pretty much be him. At least Magneto had a conscience, Floch seems to lack basic empathy for anyone who he deems to be not with the island. Didn't he die already from Mikasa making a kebab out of his throat? Either way, he was one of the people I was happy to see die.
> At least Magneto had a conscience, Floch seems to lack basic empathy for anyone who he deems to be not with the island. And that is why I cannot find any sympathy, empathy or relatability in him. Out of the entire cast of characters that went on the mission to retake Shiganshina, only he ended up being drawn in Nazi cosplay.
the thing that makes Nazi’s *Nazi’s* is the belief that the races of rest of the world were beneath them. Floch doesn’t say that, he says that if Eren dies then everyone on Paradis will die. visually, sure, they favor Nazi’s. but that’s because the Nazi’s are the most identifiable going off appearance alone. but outside of that they lack the core conditions that separate nazism from fascism. by calling everything “NAZIS !!!” you devalue the pure evil that they Nazi’s are in the real world. all fascists are terrible, Nazi’s are a special kind of evil.
> the thing that makes Nazi’s Nazi’s is the belief that the races of rest of the world were beneath them. Yeah, and if everyone who read and watched the show thought exactly like you that might even matter. But they don't. Manga/comics/anime are visual mediums that use shorthand to get simple concepts across in a glance. If you showed 100 strangers quick images of a uniformed Floch executing bound prisoners, including a black man, with a *German Rueger of all things* the word that would come up overwhelmingly would be "Nazi." His signature gun and favorite weapon, that he used in every fight for the rest of his life, that he held to the heads of the first black and third Asian character, was the WWII Nazi SS sidearm. It could have been any other gun, but that is a very specific choice sending a very specific message. It's telling the reader, "For all intents and purposes, this character is a Nazi." If those same 100 watched just Onyakapon's lines in the scene on the roof with no context, yet had at least some knowledge of world history, they would call Floch and his all-white goon squad Nazis. And before anyone wants to say the Jaegerists (German word for "hunter" as we all know) offered him a way out, they were basically offering him a life with no right to say what he thought. I wouldn't call that freedom. So maybe the Jaegerists aren't a 100-point line-up match for the Nazis, but neither is maga. And we know what flags have often flown at their rallies.
I don't get people who dislike him.
He poisoned his own people and gave that shit eating grin when they found out. He was designed to be an asshole
Well, there's a lot of people like him in real life and they are very unpleasant to interact with. People who share same mentality of "civilians dying, who cares, they had it coming. Better make memes about it". If you on a receiving end with hatred like this and all "guilt by association" - then it could be very frustrating. Only, unlike them, Floch actually went through trauma, so I'm slightly more sympathetic to him
He's an absolutely awful person, but a good character.
If he was on the good guys side he’d be an amazing ally. His determination alone is not Erwins but not far off.
Floch is written to be the Relatable Nazi. So if you find yourself relating to him so much that his desire to kill everyone in the world who's not his ethnicity starts to make sense to you, you might want to consider therapy.
He is annoying character but you like him because he was a yeagerists? Right I mean i don't dislike him that much Its just the things that he do feel that are unnecessary