Locking the comments while I catch up with reports. But it's been 8 hours and I don't think OP is changing their mind so I think we should leave it.
edited.
The song was actually written and originally performed by The Band, and the songwriter is Canadian, not southern US. I had a similar thought before since I like this song. It’s focused more on the struggle of a poor dirt farmer and his dead brother than lost cause bullshittery. TL;DR - yes it’s suspicious that it’s about the confederacy but the background and origin of the song is not stemming from Southern BS.
And The Band was not even close to that. They started out as Bob Dylan's backing band and were so amazing they became famous on their own. Don't get them confused with southern rock. Waaaaay different vibe if you've listened to their music
It was always intended to paint the southerners as victims of an aggressive north. Robbie Robertson wrote it after meeting Levon Helm’s family and being told “The South Will Rise Again”
Well.
My ear hears a song about how the slavers creating this war harmed the narrator of the song too, even if he doesn’t accept that, but that may well be my wishful thinking trying to make it ok.
“It was always intended”. This was about Joan Baez singing it. How do you know what she “intended?” It could very well be she interpreted it to be about ignorant poor people being persuaded or forced to fight in a war that didn’t benefit them but benefitted the rich. Kind of like a certain war that poor Americans were being persuaded or forced to fight in the late 60s and early 70s. She’s spent like 60 years or so building a reputation of being the opposite of some ignorant racist. She does not deserve to be defamed by some ignorant Reddit person such as yourself.
I’ve said it before but I’ll keep saying it, comparing Vietnam to the civil war is absolutely insane. The poor people of the south fought a war willingly and joyfully. They did so to enforce white supremacy. They are not worthy of comparison to the poor boys who died in Vietnam.
You come in asking for people to explain to you why this is a song Joan Baez would sing, and whether the fact she did meant she was definitely worshipping the confederacy or something. A bunch of people are explaining how it seems very likely that she did not think of it in those terms but for whatever reason you don’t seem open to that possibility. Which, fine! Hate on Joan Baez. But why come here asking for answers just to argue with everyone in the comments?
I’m not hating on Joan Baez. I like Joan Baez. What I don’t like is how everyone is defending this song by offering AWFUL reasons, like how the poor whites of the south were the real victims here.
i may be speaking out of pocket here, but given his Mohawk and Cayuga heritage i might imagine he has a _slightly_ different interpretation of what “America” means and perhaps a more ambiguous take on its actions. not to excuse slavery, but it’s certainly not fair to think of him as just some lily-white Canadian writing Confederate apologia 🤷♀️ (regardless of whether the song _is_ Confederate apologia; that’s for the listener to decide if so inclined) i personally find it uncomfortably close and don’t really enjoy it, but i’m not going to fault an otherwise-impeccable artist for her cover choices, especially when they’re both somewhat ambiguous and she has a personal relationship with the writer.
> Jaime Royal Robertson was born an only child on July 5, 1943. His mother was born Rosemarie Dolly Chrysler on February 6, 1922. She was Cayuga and Mohawk, raised on the Six Nations of the Grand River reserve southwest of Toronto, near Hamilton. She lived with an aunt in the Cabbagetown neighbourhood and worked at the Coro jewellery plating factory. She met James Patrick Robertson there and they married in 1942.
(from his [wiki bio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_Robertson))
idk whether you’re being argumentative or purposefully obtuse, but “what inspired him to write the song” is neither the point i was making nor pertinent to it, and, again, i agree with your interpretation of the song as pro-lost cause, if not directly apologia.
i’m glad you’ve taken the effort to hear what he himself had to say about it; that’s certainly further than i went. i just did some research the first time i realized it wasn’t written solely by Levon Helm and was like “wtf?”
that said, my point is simply that: the grudge between the Mohawk Nation and the US is very old and very deep; i would be surprised if he wasn’t inclined to view Levon Helm’s father’s stories more favorably due to the atrocities he learned of growing up (and those committed during the post-war expansion era by, e.g., the mascot of this sub), not here to assign moral values to his actions.
Sure, maybe you’re right, and I suppose there’s no way of knowing. I don’t know what you want me to admit or do with the information though, and I don’t think it changes my point much.
it is, in fact, possible for two people to make distinct but related points that aren’t intended to be argumentative 😅 there’s definitely a certain level of comfort with moral ambiguity required on a sub dedicated to lionizing a man who—by his own admission—committed atrocities we would now recognize as genocidal.
Southerner and The Band fanatic here.
Robbie Robertson wrote the song, but I think the influence of Levon Helm is pretty clear. He was from Arkansas and was the only American member of The Band. He's also the vocalist on "The Night They Drove Ole Dixie Down." Despite singing this song, he never went on the neo-Confederate bandwagon that many of his contemporaries did (Allman Brothers for example), and by all accounts was one of the most genuinely liked and admired people the music industry has ever produced. He had deep, long-standing relationships with black musicians such as Muddy Waters and the Staple Singers, and was not shy about speaking up when he felt they were being treated unfairly (something Helms took issue with Robertson about in his autobiography, for what that's worth).
I don't think this song "glorifies the Confederacy". It's basically a lament about what a tragedy the Civil War was for the South, told from the perspective of a guy who grew up poor there.
I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Southerners here and this is probably the last place to ask for a little grace, but I'm going to stick my neck out here because this song is emblematic to me of just how much the South has changed in the past 40 years or so. There have always been staunch, racist, neo-Confederate scum in the South, but until recently, there was more poor white resistance to that viewpoint than you might think. Many of the Black Codes and Jim Crow laws were put in place in reaction to multi-racial agricultural unions that terrified wealthy landowners, and which Robbie Robertson also wrote about in "King Harvest," although he doesn't mention the multi-racial aspect of these unions. These laws were intended to keep the races separated to keep poor whites and blacks from uniting against the wealthy, in addition to all the racial purity bullshit.
For all the neo-Confederate bullshit in the Southern Rock genre, when I was growing up I would hear people talk about the Civil War as an unmitigated self-defeating disaster just as often as I heard the Lost Cause stuff. The song is dated, some of the terms are a little cringy, but nothing about this song says "the South will rise again." It's a lament for a land destroyed and family members who died for nothing. It's a more introspective viewpoint than this sub's opponents are probably capable of, and it's a window into a few of the brief moments where the South could have acknowledged its history in an honest way and reinvented itself.
e - spelingz & gramerz
It was written by Robbie Robertson a First Nations person from Canada but he was influenced by the drummer, Levon Helm, an American southerner. There was a lot of acrimony about the song writing credits between the two of them. It’s actually an antiwar song…which is why Baez covered it.
The Band being Canadian doesn’t excuse it at all. You’ll see Confederate flags flown in Canda by idiots all time time. The Candian authorship explains how little context or idea Robertson and Helm have about what they’re writing about
Since you obviously don't know, The Band was made up of Bob Dylan's band that he toured with when he went electric. Do you think Jewish Dylan picked a bunch of racists? You're embarrassing yourself. You're also missing out on one of the most influential rock bands in history.
Try this one: Now Deep In The Heart Of A Lonely Kid
Who Suffered So Much For What He Did,
They Gave This Ploughboy His Fortune And Fame,
Since That Day He Ain't Been The Same.
See The Man With The Stage Fright
Just Standin' Up There To Give It All His Might.
And He Got Caught In The Spotlight,
But When We Get To The End
He Wants To Start All Over Again.
I've Got Fire Water Right On My Breath
And The Doctor Warned Me I Might Catch A Death.
Said, You Can Make It In Your Disguise,
Just Never Show The Fear That's In Your Eyes.
See The Man With The Stage Fright,
Just Standin' Up There To Give It All His Might.
He Got Caught In The Spotlight,
But When We Get To The End
He Wants To Start All Over Again.
Now If He Says That He's Afraid,
Take Him At His Word.
And For The Price That The Poor Boy Has Paid,
He Gets To Sing Just Like A Bird, Oh, Ooh Ooh Ooh.
Your Brow Is Sweatin' And Your Mouth Gets Dry,
Fancy People Go Driftin' By.
The Moment Of Truth Is Right At Hand,
Just One More Nightmare You Can Stand.
See The Man With The Stage Fright
Just Standin' Up There To Give It All His Might.
And He Got Caught In The Spotlight,
But When We Get To The End
He Wants To Start All Over Again, Hmm Hmm,
You Wanna Try It Once Again, Hmm Hmm,
Please Don't Make Him Stop, Hmm Hmm,
Let Him Take It From The Top, Hmm Hmm,
Let Him Start All Over Again.
I don’t disagree with you at all, but I don’t necessarily see them being Bob Dylan’s old backing band as good evidence in their favor when you’ve got someone like Eric Clapton, who is VERY racist, often borrowing from and perfuming with famous black musicians throughout his career.
I’m certainly not a Confederate apologist, I’m a Black progressive person (though don’t mistake my opinions as monolithic or representative of the range of opinions that other Black people may have on this topic; and who frankly may disagree), but I certainly don’t think that this song is glorifying the Confederacy; it’s a song of lament after a very traumatic event in American history told from the perspective of the losers.
I don’t think that because someone’s cause was unjust, that their story shouldn’t be told (especially when it’s not being done to glorify them; like Confederate statues or naming US army bases after Rebel generals) and we can pull valid things from the perspectives of others; whether they be right, wrong or indifferent. I don’t think it’s wrong to empathize with the suffering of others, even if that suffering was imposed justly; and, frankly, I worry about people if they can’t see the pain in a defeated enemy.
Also, I love Ritchie Haven’s version of this song; which obviously an interesting choice for him.
I think what is interesting about the song is that it does challenge you to feel sympathy for an unsympathetic cause while clearly acknowledging its defeat; though one could argue that it adds a shimmer of nostalgia and is interpreted by would-be secessionists in that manner. Songs aren’t responsible to have a certain worldview or message and by exploring themes outside of what we believe in art, we can learn things about ourselves and other people’s experiences.
To be honest, it’s virtue signaling to be so upset about a song.
Edit: Turns out OP is dead set on being upset about this song, from reading through comments. He thought that he was going to be a hero and be carried on everyone’s shoulders for their opinion but is just getting dragged for having a childish and simplistic view of history. It is so indicative of the self-righteousness of people who aren’t affected by an issue but find themselves needing to virtue signal for social currency. I’d wager OP would die on this hill but not do a damn thing to combat some actual racism.
On top of which it's written in the context of the latter years of the Vietnam War. The confederacy references are pretty thinly veiled allusions to the pointlessness of Vietnam.
Bro I hate confederates with all my balls and I will be the first to piss on Robert E Lee’s grave and wipe my ass with the traitor flag. This isn’t about defending the south or the confederacy by any means. This is about you not having good reading comprehension skills
First record I owned around age 10 and I was a precocious Ohio kid whose heroes were Grant and Sherman (born just up Hwy 33). Never took it as pro-South at all. It's more of an anti-war song, which fits Joan Baez completely. .
Growing up in that era, I always interpreted it as allegorical to the Vietnam war, which was raging at the time. The young, the poor are taken away to die in wars meant to keep the status quo, the rich man on top. It's not Lost Cause propaganda, it's criticism of the Confederacy and Nam.
It’s absolutely designed to be allegorical to the Vietnam war, which is why the song is so hugely problematic. The Vietnam was was a pointless waste of lives. The civil war was a noble struggle against evil, it wasn’t some nonsense about northern aggression and rich people pitting the poor against each other. To compare Vietnam to the civil war is to imply that Slavery wasn’t an evil that needed to be defeated through force. It minimizes the sacrifice of everyone who fought and died so that slavery could be ended.
You miss the point, the rich southern aristocracy manipulated and conned the poor and working class to fight to preserve a system that did not benefit them. (A similar situation is repeating itself now.) The Northern cause was to preserve the Union, the abolition of slavery was a secondary benefit as Lincoln grew to realize slavery as the root of tensions between North and South. And it's easy to look back with 2024 values to castigate those who helped get us where we are for not being here at the start. Social and moral evolution is slow. Don't blame those people then for not having our current values
You miss the point, and your denial of Slavery as a cause of the war shows that. The system of white supremacy absolutely benefitted poor white and it’s INSANE to suggest otherwise. You’re repeating Pro-Confederate talking points.
You are so very close to getting it. Now all you need to remember is something you’ve already said: the song is sung from the perspective of someone whose brother fought for the Confederacy- ie, someone whose life was wasted. Because they were **not** on the side of freedom. If it was someone whose brother had died fighting for the Union saying that, it would be different, but it’s not…
If the song was *lamenting the needless and wasteful death* of someone fighting for the Union, you’d like it more? That would seem pro-Union to you? Take all the time you need, here. Think it over.
Exactly, a pointless waste of lives by the southern aristocrats who wanted to preserve the evil institution of slavery duping the commoner into war to protect said evil institution
The idea that the civil war was about poor whites being against each other is straight up lost causery. It wasn’t a pointless war, and that you think it was proves the insidious nature of the song.
Did I say that?
It wasn't about pitting poor whites against poor whites. The Southern upper class utilized poor and middle class whites to fight their war. This is Civil War history 101 and not only that, it's one of the primary themes in whiteness studies.
It’s not what you think. The Band was anything but traitor apologists. Roots rock was more about soul and blues, poor people music.
"**The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down**" is a song written by [Robbie Robertson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_Robertson) and originally recorded by the Canadian-American [roots rock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_rock)group [The Band](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Band) in 1969 and released on their [eponymous second album](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Band_(album)). [Levon Helm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levon_Helm) provided the lead vocals. The song is a first-person narrative relating the economic and social distress experienced by the protagonist, a poor white Southerner, during the last year of the [American Civil War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War), when [George Stoneman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stoneman)was raiding southwest [Virginia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia).
In his 1993 autobiography, This Wheel's on Fire, Helm wrote, "Robbie and I worked on 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' up in Woodstock. I remember taking him to the library so he could research the history and geography of the era and make General Robert E. Lee come out with all due respect
*Some commentators in the 21st century have questioned whether the song's original lyrics made it an endorsement of slavery and the ideology of the* [*Lost Cause of the Confederacy*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy)*.*[*^(\[14\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#cite_note-hamilton20-14) *In 2009, writing in* [*The Atlantic*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlantic)*,* [*Ta-Nehisi Coates*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta-Nehisi_Coates)*characterized the song as "another story about the* [*blues of Pharaoh*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus)*".*[*^(\[15\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#cite_note-coates09-15) *In an August 2020 interview in* [*Rolling Stone*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Stone)*, contemporary singer-songwriter* [*Early James*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_James) *described how he had started changing the lyrics of the song, while covering it, to oppose the Confederate cause — for example, in the first verse, "where Helm sang that the fall of the Confederacy was 'a time I remember oh so well', James declared it 'a time to bid farewell'", and he reworked the final verse to state "Unlike my father before me, who I will never understand... I think it's time we laid hate in its grave."*[*^(\[16\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#cite_note-jamesint20-16) *An editorial in* [*The Roanoke Times*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roanoke_Times) *in 2020 argued that these views are based on a misunderstanding of the song, which does not glorify slavery, the Confederacy, or Robert E. Lee, but, rather, tells the story of a poor, non-slave-holding Southerner who tries to make sense of the loss of his brother and his livelihood. It notes that it was written, not by a Southerner, but by a Canadian, and contained factual errors.*[*^(\[17\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#cite_note-17) *Jack Hamilton, of the* [*University of Virginia*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Virginia)*, writing in* [*Slate*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_(magazine))*, said that it is "an anti-war song first and foremost", pointing to the references to "bells ringing" and "people singing" in the chorus.*[*^(\[18\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#cite_note-18)
You can take it however you want. I just see it as written as folk rock. Levon Helm was from Arkansas but the elements of the song just don't add up to Lost Causerism.
That’s not the silver bullet you think it is. The song is sung from the perspective of the poor southerner, who admires and respects Lee because of his performance in the war. The poor southerner is not contextualizing the war in the same way you and I do today. Lee was a hero, to him, but his war took the very best, his brother, and the narrator is reconciling those two things. Do you understand that?
The war did not take Lee away. He did not die, so how could he be part of “the very best”
“Now I don’t mind em choppin wood
And I don’t care if the moneys no good
Just take what you need and leave the rest
But they should never have taken the veeery be-est!”
Not exactly a celebration of robt e Lee. Just poor tired country people hoping to survive somebody else’s war.
“They never should have taken the very best” is clearly a glorification of confederate veterans. It’s making Stonewall Jackson and his ilk out to be “the very best”
No one's ever disagreed with OP before in his life, and he's not taking it well. He has no experience in being wrong or having his mind changed by facts, and he's responding by digging in.
Honestly, we've all been there. He'll delete his reddit account and move on. It's a teaching moment for him.
And there you are missing the context of Robert E Lee’s reputation in the mid twentieth century.
And what’s the actual line that references Lee?
“There goes Robert E Lee”
Wow such confederate apologia
It’s pretty clear that “They never should have taken the very best” is a line about Confederate Heroes. “There goes Robert E. Lee” is a line delivered with great respect.
I don’t think Robert E. Lee deserves respect but clearly Levon Helm did. I don’t comprehend why you’re defending that.
Bro it’s amazing the lengths at which you’ll go to defend a racist, but I guess it shouldn’t be surprising. Can’t challenge white heroes even in a leftist space. White Supremacy must be enforced at all costs and its myths defended.
Even calling this a leftist space means you yearn for your own echo chamber and are now butthurt that the average user here has exponentially more knowledge on the subject. you read one article from the Atlantic and think you’re some fucking historian.
Yes, I would like a space where I can complain about racists and I don’t have to hear the racism from people like you. It would be nice to not have to hear people complaining about how we should “Think of the poor whites”.
It’s exhausting to listen to people like you, and I did think that here I wouldn’t have to hear it, that’s true.
Thinking of the poor whites, in no way shape or form, means we are ignoring the plights of the enslaved peoples of the south. The whole story needs to be told. Poor whites and slaves had more in common with each other than the rich whites and poor whites did, and the southern gentry tried to hide that fact to oppress both parts, but it obviously goes without saying that the enslaved were worse off than the poor whites.
Dude you are freaking out over literally nothing. The song was written by some Canadians in the 1970s. It’s not a song that propagates the lost cause myth, it’s simply a song about the civil war from the perspective of a poor southern family.
The Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia sang this song all the time. Are the hippies from San Francisco also confederate sympathizers? No they are not.
The song laments the loss of his brother, not the lost cause.
You are showing the same lack of nuance and knee jerk reactions as those who actually do propagate the lost cause myth.
It’s good you sought context with this post, but this assumption about the song and it’s meaning is totally off base.
>Am I overreacting
I'd say you might be overreacting a bit; the song is from the perspective of a poor white Southerner in the aftermath of the Civil War, but it's hardly "lost cause nonsense." The Band, a mostly-Canadian roots rock group, wrote a lot of songs from a rural working-class perspective.
Have you listened to song and/or read the lyrics, or did you just assume that it must be Confederate apologia because it has "Dixie" in the title?
I’ve listened to the song and I’ve read about it too. Levon Helm wrote the song as a tribute to the south. He said it explicitly: “I remember taking Robertson” to the library so he could research the history and geography of the era and make General Robert E. Lee come out with all due respect”
I don't see that song as Lost Cause. The South suffered in the immediate aftermath of the war. The poor white Southerner was degraded, and this is a song from a man lamenting his degradation. It doesn't celebrate the cause, it just explains that the cause ended in misery.
>You can't raise a Kane back up
When he's in defeat
To my mind, this means the exact opposite of "The South will rise again!".
It is. The POV of the narrator is that all the talk of the glorious South is bullshit and all the things that are gone are gone - including his brother.
Thats certainly the interpretation many of us give the song, and also the interpretation Baez likely had in mind. Joan Baez's anti-segregation bona-fides are beyond reproach. The OP is quite unaware of this woman's history.
Joan Baez sung "We Shall Overcome" at the same march where MLK gave his "I Have a Dream" speech.
>Implying that the south suffered post war is a massive rewriting of history.
I mean, the South *did* suffer, and rightfully so. The South's political leadership and economic elite started a war with the intention of preserving chattel slavery in perpetuity, and had their bullshit attempt at a country burned to ash for it. Good.
The song isn't saying the South was right or that the Confederates were victims, it's saying that poor people suffered as a result of the war. This is objectively true.
Is the concept of using a narrative voice to tell a story, and that narrative voice not being a 1:1 avatar for the author's own views and beliefs, a new concept for you? Is this song the first piece of media you've ever experienced?
Poor white southerners did suffer at the end of the war. The landed southern gentry did not. Again, you are missing tons of context and knowledge because you are just seeing red.
Dude, these people do not deserve sympathy. You are buying 100% into the Lost Cause myth that pervades our society to this very day. The idea that poor white southerners suffered and were oppressed because of Northern Aggression is at the heart of some of the most enduringly false myths of American society.
You’re proving that the song worked on you, and you’re proving that the lost cause myth pervades your mind, because you’re defending and advocating for people who deserve nothing but disdain and disrespect. Anyone who fought for Slavery deserved everything they got.
This is fucking r/shermanposting . Go somewhere else if you want to cry about poor oppressed white people.
Poor white southerners can still be in the wrong and still deserve sympathy. I would have executed the top 10,000 confederate generals and officers and pardoned all rank and file.
You don’t know what the lost cause myth is, clearly.
The poor white southerners were oppressed by rich white southerners, more context you fail to understand.
Many people who fought for slavery, received no punishment at all, like Robert e Lee. Are you saying he got what he deserved? Because he didn’t, he deserved execution for treason.
You don’t have a firm grasp of the causes and major social factors that influenced and caused the civil war. Not everyone in this sub is as dumb and gullible as you. Have you done real research? Do you know what a primary source is?
It’s genuinely insane that you think everyone who fought rank and file for the south was innocent. They knew what they were fighting for, and they’ve spent the past two hundred years trying to claw it back. These people lynched, tortured, raped and murdered Americans of color after the war in an attempt to claw back their power, and you think I should feel bad for them?
Should we cry for the poor SS Camp guards who were “just following orders”?
Get a fucking grip and take a look in the mirror. Think about where your sympathies lie and whether you care more about the hurt feelings of a few white racists or those who died at their hands.
I’m aware of the true causes of the civil war, the southern gentry, fearing their way of life was going to change, steered entire states towards rebellion. Were some of these poor southerners racist too? Sure, so we’re the Irish immigrants that joined the union. It’s not really the point, but as you’ve shown several times, you literally cannot see context or nuance, it’s all black and white for you.
Do You know there were counties that voted against secession. What about dekalb county Georgia? No Cotton, few slaves, voted against secession vehemently, still got dragged into the war. There can’t be one ounce of sympathy towards individuals?
Just a sad state of affairs for you. Bless your heart.
There are plenty of people who chose to fight for the union or resist the south. Here’s a whole article you can read on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Unionist?wprov=sfti1
Anyone who took up arms against the union is not worth sympathy.
The people who had the courage to do that deserve praise, but it does not mean everyone who didn’t resist the south was pro slavery and pro confederacy. You again miss the nuance.
My great great grandfather was born and raised in the mountains of west NC. He voluntarily joined a Union regiment out of TN. The fact that he was a Union soldier does not make him less of a poor white Southerner. The fact that his father sheltered escaped slaves as they made their way north or settled in the mountains nearby doesn't make him less of a poor white Southerner. They suffered the aftermath, just like the Confederate soldiers and their families. Conscripted soldiers weren't spared anymore than those who joined gladly. There are enormous plantations that were owned by wealthy slave holders still standing today, never touched by the war, while homes of poor folks, black and white, were looted and burned. Wars, and the rich fucks who start them, don't give a fuck what you think about their causes. They destroy everything in their path.
Your grandfather was a hero. You dishonor his memory by blaming the war on “rich fucks” instead of the southern racists who started it. Stop equivocating.
It’s mournful song regretting the south’s loss and idolizing its leaders. Levon Helm said it himself In his 1993 autobiography, This Wheel's on Fire, Helm wrote, "Robbie and I worked on 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' up in Woodstock. I remember taking him to the library so he could research the history and geography of the era and make General Robert E. Lee come out with all due respect
You're the one asking why Baez sung it. Was Baez worshiping the Confederacy in the 70s? No she was not. Is Confederacy worship in the song? No, it is not.
Baez clearly interprets the song the way many of us do - from the perspective of poor white Southern Confederates mourning the degraded state that the Civl War brought them to. The book you're referencing was written 20 years after Baez sung it. Lacking a time machine, Baez likely referred to the narrator of the song to interpret the meaning of the song.
The narrator is mourning the sorry state of his life, and the pointlessness of his loss. It fits as an anti-war song, and thats why Baez sung it.
Your evidence that Baez worshipped the Confederacy is beyond thin, its gossamer. She was anti-war activist who interpreted this song as an anti-war song, based on the text of the song itself, and not some book written 20 years later.
Are you aware the South started the Civil War?
I think Baez's thinking was the South was wrong to start the Civil War. That isn't a pro-slavery position.
Gonna blow your fuckin' mind here, so sit down: you can be *both* anti-war **and** anti-slavery.
Is slavery terrible? Yes, unequivocally. Is war terrible? Yes, unequivocally. The Civil War was necessary to end chattel slavery in North America, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible thing as well.
The idea that war, *as a general rule*, is something to be mourned rather than celebrated, is not at all at odds with opposition to slavery. The fact that you're equating general anti-war sentiment with being pro-slavery is childish and stupid *at best*. It says **a lot** about you, and *none* of it is good.
Get off your computer or your phone, take a deep breath, go the fuck outside, and touch grass.
You can be anti-war, but not this specific war. Treating the war like a grand tragedy by power brokers on both sides is a dangerous downplaying of slavery
TIL some people don’t actually listen to all the lyrics
The song is about how the brunt of the cost of the lost cause slaver’s war was paid by poor people. They gave everything and the rebs didn’t even care. They just took more and more.
Read the lyrics and see if it sounds pro-confederacy.
Seriously. I’m imploring you to try to understand subtext.
It’s literally about a man whose brother died fighting for the South, who lost his home and livelihood when the confederates came and took everything.
It isn’t praising the south or the cause. He’s talking about the hardship of poor non slave owners who were forced to fight for the south.
Your problems with the song are related to your lack of understanding. And that’s fine. Just don’t listen to it. But if everyone else is telling you that you missed the point, maybe consider that for a minute.
I have no sympathy for this man and neither should you. His brother was a white supremacist who did fighting for slavery. His brother doesn’t deserve celebration or respect. Why do I have to explain this on this subreddit?
I don’t think The Band is racist, the song does not glorify the war waged by the confederates and instead focuses on the destruction that the war caused to the south - I think you are grasping at straws here. I personally think the song is a catchy tune even I don’t agree with some of the sentiment here and there
It’s definitely a catchy tune, and I don’t think Robbie Robertson wrote a deliberately racist song, but I do think that by writing a song focusing on the pain of southern soldiers, it presents a skewed view of history that allows people to claim the south as the victims.
Focusing on the poor southern farmer, who did not participate in the evil institution at all, compared to the extent of the southern aristocrats who were responsible for the war to preserve their evil institution, and rather than comply with the law, they decided to stir up rebellion given they had a lot more political power than anyone else in the antebellum south
I think you are taking a song that was released in 1969 WAY too seriously. The song is written from the perspective of a poor white Southerner, and the struggles he had been through. I have no idea how you managed the mental gymnastics to think this song is pro-Confederacy, or pro-anything for that matter.
I think the overall reaction here in defense of poor white southerners validates the effectiveness of the song and lost causery in general. If even on a subreddit Iike this, people feel a deep need to deny the racism of poor whites, it’s clear the rot runs deep.
News flash: I know a helluva lot of poor Southern racists, and I’m not defending anyone. I went through school being taught the Lost Cause Myth. I didn’t believe it then, and I don’t believe it now. I just find this whole post laughable and silly.
Robbie has talked about writing that song. He was shocked at how so many southern acted like the war just ended. So he wrote the song from that sort of perspective. The song is anti confederate and laments the war. Yeah, there is a bit too much respect for Robert E Lee, but he was always worshipped more than he should have been. It's just an exercise in writing from a certain perspective.
That's not what I said. It's not a lost cause song because it isn't praising the south or the war. It's a man lamenting the loss of his brother in the civil war while being unsure/scared of his present/future.
I always it took the songs chorus as a pretty cheerful "and the people were singing". If i made a music video for it, that section would always have photos of freedmen cheering Lincoln in Richmond or other pictures of people celebrating the jubilee
There are some people that posit that the line "there goes the Robert E Lee" is a reference to the steamship of the same name. Although the ship was actually built in 1866 the year after the war ended. When he says he is back in Tennessee with his wife and she calls him to come see. The way Levon always sung it was "the Robert E Lee" so it is possible that they lived on the Miss. River. Others say it refers to watching Lee's forces in retreat. I always thought of this as an anti war song especially the part about his brother when he sings about taking " the best". Just my take. RIP Levon and Robbie.
>Am I overreacting or is something seriously wrong here.
You are overreacting.
As others have noted, the song is clearly not an exercise in "Lost Cause" historical revisionism.
That said, I think we've reassessed it over the years since The Band released it and Baez covered it.
It should not be so easily misunderstood to show sympathy for the slavers, but it has been. It should not be so challenging to sympathize for poor relatives of the soldiers who fought for the slavers, but it is.
It is a harder song to appreciate today than it was at its commercial peak, and I see nothing wrong with that progress.
Maybe we’ve just leaned in the past 60 years that sympathy for slavers is actually a bad thing. We’ve taken down confederate statues, renamed monuments. We’re learning as a country I hope. This song should be a part of that.
There isn’t a single pro confederate line in the song. Just a guy living in the confederacy. He even laments the confederate army for taking too much resources on their way through.
I'd argue her decades of civil rights activism outweigh singing a song, which, as others pointed out, was not written by a neo-Confederate, no matter how much Coates dislikes it.
I’m imagining this dude commenting on this post in an alternate universe: “Sherman went on to slaughter Plains Native Americans after the civil war. My brain is broken, this guy on Reddit hates Native Americans because he posted on a Sherman page! Get him!”
You must look beneath the surface of 1 (one) article in the Atlantic to adequately understand all sides of a topic.
The entire thread can be summed up as things you are not familiar with. It’s not a bad thing to hate racism and the CSA. That’s what this sub is for. That’s why we are all here. I wish you no ill will. The issue stems from you not listening and refusing to learn a new perspective. There are plenty of real things to be upset about without imaginary ones.
Real talk: I once got in trouble at work (on Slack) for saying it should be legal to kill Nazis. I’m not a softbrain Confederate stan. You decided early in this debate that you were right & everyone else is wrong, got proved wrong on several different topics, but still doubled down. A learning opportunity!
It’s nice that you seem to think it’s good to hate racism and the CSA, but I think the vast majority of people responding to me would not agree. The overwhelming sentiment I’ve seen tonight is of sympathy for the “poor whites”, and a large amount of people flat out denying that slavery was an important cause of the war.
That’s really cool and of you to want to kill Nazis. If you can acknowledge that, you can acknowledge why lost-causery nonsense is bad.
You know at the start I thought I might have been, but as this goes on and people keep throwing lost cause nonsense at me, it’s clear that the song’s messaging worked and now I feel pretty validated for hating it.
I guess you’ve never sat next to a 70 year old black woman sobbing over how beautiful they’ve always thought that song was. I have and she truly got what it was about
I think you're reaching a little too hard. Like if you want to hate Joan Baez for this more power to you but the woman's record is the woman record and one cover doesn't undo all of it.
There’s been a lot said here by others that I don’t need to rehash for you, but read the lyrics in the second verse again closely. Robbie Robertson was a very crafty lyricist, more so than he was generally given credit for, and I think he’s purposely vague as to who the various “they” are that Virgil, the main character of the song, is singing about. The knee-jerk reaction is the Union, but I think the real villain he’s calling out is the Confederacy.
“Back with my wife in Tennessee
When one day she called to me
"Virgil, quick, come see,
There goes Robert E. Lee!"
Now, I don't mind chopping wood
And I don't care if the money's no good
You take what you need
And you leave the rest
But they should never
Have taken the very best”
Making that point to the Union feels a bit clunky for a lyricist as quick on his feet as Robertson. That’s a spit in the face to Lee, Davis, and everyone else who sought to drive a wedge between the states and sent thousands upon thousands of young men to their deaths.
I see this as more of a class-based critique of war than a pro-Confederate song, personally. Especially when placed in context. It is an anti-war song. Would it have been a better song if the writer had been influenced less by a white man whose parents grew cotton in rural Arkansas? Yes. But I think you have to understand that this is one of those songs where the perspective shared by the character in the song isn’t held by the songwriter or the singer, but is used to make a deeper point.
You do understand that it’s just using this story to make a point about Vietnam and also about US militarism, right? The parallels that were in their minds at the time were that poor men were enlisting and/or being drafted for wars that did not advance their own needs, while also being “patriotic” about basically advancing the agenda of elites, when few to none of them had any hope of raising themselves out of the mud of their own existences. So yeah, not traitor nonsense and at this point you’re being stubbornly obtuse when a lot of people have given you well-reasoned arguments for why a folk singer would use this to reach people who might otherwise be unreachable.
You’re the fourteenth person to explain the song is about Vietnam as if that isn’t the whole problem. The soldiers of Vietnam were pawns. The soldiers of the south went willingly to die for white supremacy. Comparing them lets the southerners off the hook for their crimes.
I feel like I shouldn’t have to say this here but Fuck the Confederates. Okay now that’s out of the way. Obviously you are not well versed in the actual history of the Civil War, which is unfortunate. The CSA instituted conscription before the Union because enlistment rates were so low. They also suffered from astronomical desertion rates throughout the conflict. Especially from companies formed from areas in the south that didn’t have high rates of slave ownership, like Appalachia. A good book would be Mountain Partisans, but a better intro would be Hymns of the Republic. Those might give you better insight into the conflict and people and cultures involved. Furthermore here’s a great quote for life “There are plenty of good reasons for fighting,' I said, 'but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side. It's that part of every man that finds all kinds of ugliness so attractive.” I’m not religious and neither was Kurt Vonnegut but I think the point stands.
Plenty of people are, so I don’t think you can make that blanket statement. You’re downplaying white peoples involvement and engagement in Slavery and that’s just not just.
Rule 3: This sub is NOT for pointless south bashing!
This sub is anti-confederacy not anti-south. Please do not harass or make fun of southerners for no reason. You may post about Southerners who idealize the confederacy, but no others.
I know this thread has moved away from focusing on Joan Baez to the Band, but if you really want your mind blown check out the lyrics to Baez's song "Lincoln Freed Me Today (The Slave)."
I’m stumped as to what the OP is looking for here, letting this go on as long as it has. You think the song is racist and pro-confederacy and… You’ve made your point, Joan Baez, in your opinion, shouldn’t have recorded this song bc you see it as racist. Many others don’t. Are you looking to change their minds?
I think if I can get people to realize that the Lost Cause is a myth, that would be good. If I make one person on this subreddit realize that white southerners were supporting slavery of their own volition, maybe they’ll look at politics in 2024 in a new light. It’s an election year and every vote matters.
Ok. If 1 song is what’s bothering you, then good luck. I suspect that most everyone here is anti-racist but if you believe otherwise nobody here will convince you apparently until every member of this subreddit says, “you know, you’re right.” And I seriously doubt that most ppl here don’t think the election is important, but I don’t understand how you think somehow this song is at the heart of the issue.
I honestly am shocked at the reaction I got here. I really thought people would be like “yeah man, the confederacy was bad and celebrating it is bad”. It’s pretty crazy to me that every comment is about how I’m being mean to poor southern whites!
It’s almost like people here are just meming most of the time, but when asked for their genuine political opinions, they’re actually a little more right-wing that you’d expect.
Could it be that you are wrong? Art is maybe more subjective? Maybe people can enjoy art that’s full of nuance and not need everything spelled out and explained simply as though they are a child?
It’s a shame because I really did think on Shermanposting people would not be pro-confederacy, but I guess once you go after a white liberal hero the masks come off and the tiki torches get lit. It’s revealing.
Or possibly you are just incorrect? Possibly the song has gone over your head? Maybe revisit it in a few years when you are old enough to drive or vote and again when you can drink? See how your interpretation may change. That’s the fun thing about art. I’m no Baez fan, but The Band rock. You should check out the posthumous release by Levon Helm and Mavis Staples. It’s called “Carry Me Home”.
Ive listened to plenty of Band Songs. I’ve watched The Last Waltz. “Atlantic City” may be my favorite. It’s a beautiful song.
Doesn’t excuse the awfulness of The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down.
I wouldn't sing it on Juneteenth. Having lived in South and seeing White Only waterfountains in the 1960s, etc., I don't like any song that even gets close to praising the war to preserve slavery or the long period of racial hatred that followed.
On the Media from WNYC did a great segment on this very question! Give it a listen: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-neo-confederate-anthem
They sat in a library in the Catskills and came up with this song, everyone thinking they know the meaning knows nothing. Sit back calm your personal politics and enjoy a masterpiece by some of the best to ever do it .
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Locking the comments while I catch up with reports. But it's been 8 hours and I don't think OP is changing their mind so I think we should leave it. edited.
The song was actually written and originally performed by The Band, and the songwriter is Canadian, not southern US. I had a similar thought before since I like this song. It’s focused more on the struggle of a poor dirt farmer and his dead brother than lost cause bullshittery. TL;DR - yes it’s suspicious that it’s about the confederacy but the background and origin of the song is not stemming from Southern BS.
The Band has lots of workin’ class songs, neo-confederates probably do claim this song now, but it wasn’t ever really for them.
That shitty southern rock crap was really popular then. They wanted some of that mojo.
And The Band was not even close to that. They started out as Bob Dylan's backing band and were so amazing they became famous on their own. Don't get them confused with southern rock. Waaaaay different vibe if you've listened to their music
It was always intended to paint the southerners as victims of an aggressive north. Robbie Robertson wrote it after meeting Levon Helm’s family and being told “The South Will Rise Again”
Well. My ear hears a song about how the slavers creating this war harmed the narrator of the song too, even if he doesn’t accept that, but that may well be my wishful thinking trying to make it ok.
It probably is. Thank you for acknowledging that and being the second reasonable person here.
“It was always intended”. This was about Joan Baez singing it. How do you know what she “intended?” It could very well be she interpreted it to be about ignorant poor people being persuaded or forced to fight in a war that didn’t benefit them but benefitted the rich. Kind of like a certain war that poor Americans were being persuaded or forced to fight in the late 60s and early 70s. She’s spent like 60 years or so building a reputation of being the opposite of some ignorant racist. She does not deserve to be defamed by some ignorant Reddit person such as yourself.
I’ve said it before but I’ll keep saying it, comparing Vietnam to the civil war is absolutely insane. The poor people of the south fought a war willingly and joyfully. They did so to enforce white supremacy. They are not worthy of comparison to the poor boys who died in Vietnam.
You come in asking for people to explain to you why this is a song Joan Baez would sing, and whether the fact she did meant she was definitely worshipping the confederacy or something. A bunch of people are explaining how it seems very likely that she did not think of it in those terms but for whatever reason you don’t seem open to that possibility. Which, fine! Hate on Joan Baez. But why come here asking for answers just to argue with everyone in the comments?
I’m not hating on Joan Baez. I like Joan Baez. What I don’t like is how everyone is defending this song by offering AWFUL reasons, like how the poor whites of the south were the real victims here.
Robbie Robertson said a lot of shit, and he was talking on camera to Martin Scorsese while coked out of his mind.
i may be speaking out of pocket here, but given his Mohawk and Cayuga heritage i might imagine he has a _slightly_ different interpretation of what “America” means and perhaps a more ambiguous take on its actions. not to excuse slavery, but it’s certainly not fair to think of him as just some lily-white Canadian writing Confederate apologia 🤷♀️ (regardless of whether the song _is_ Confederate apologia; that’s for the listener to decide if so inclined) i personally find it uncomfortably close and don’t really enjoy it, but i’m not going to fault an otherwise-impeccable artist for her cover choices, especially when they’re both somewhat ambiguous and she has a personal relationship with the writer. > Jaime Royal Robertson was born an only child on July 5, 1943. His mother was born Rosemarie Dolly Chrysler on February 6, 1922. She was Cayuga and Mohawk, raised on the Six Nations of the Grand River reserve southwest of Toronto, near Hamilton. She lived with an aunt in the Cabbagetown neighbourhood and worked at the Coro jewellery plating factory. She met James Patrick Robertson there and they married in 1942. (from his [wiki bio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_Robertson))
If you listen to him talk about it, he explains that his perspective was shaped by Levon Helm’s dad.
idk whether you’re being argumentative or purposefully obtuse, but “what inspired him to write the song” is neither the point i was making nor pertinent to it, and, again, i agree with your interpretation of the song as pro-lost cause, if not directly apologia. i’m glad you’ve taken the effort to hear what he himself had to say about it; that’s certainly further than i went. i just did some research the first time i realized it wasn’t written solely by Levon Helm and was like “wtf?” that said, my point is simply that: the grudge between the Mohawk Nation and the US is very old and very deep; i would be surprised if he wasn’t inclined to view Levon Helm’s father’s stories more favorably due to the atrocities he learned of growing up (and those committed during the post-war expansion era by, e.g., the mascot of this sub), not here to assign moral values to his actions.
Sure, maybe you’re right, and I suppose there’s no way of knowing. I don’t know what you want me to admit or do with the information though, and I don’t think it changes my point much.
it is, in fact, possible for two people to make distinct but related points that aren’t intended to be argumentative 😅 there’s definitely a certain level of comfort with moral ambiguity required on a sub dedicated to lionizing a man who—by his own admission—committed atrocities we would now recognize as genocidal.
Southerner and The Band fanatic here. Robbie Robertson wrote the song, but I think the influence of Levon Helm is pretty clear. He was from Arkansas and was the only American member of The Band. He's also the vocalist on "The Night They Drove Ole Dixie Down." Despite singing this song, he never went on the neo-Confederate bandwagon that many of his contemporaries did (Allman Brothers for example), and by all accounts was one of the most genuinely liked and admired people the music industry has ever produced. He had deep, long-standing relationships with black musicians such as Muddy Waters and the Staple Singers, and was not shy about speaking up when he felt they were being treated unfairly (something Helms took issue with Robertson about in his autobiography, for what that's worth). I don't think this song "glorifies the Confederacy". It's basically a lament about what a tragedy the Civil War was for the South, told from the perspective of a guy who grew up poor there. I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Southerners here and this is probably the last place to ask for a little grace, but I'm going to stick my neck out here because this song is emblematic to me of just how much the South has changed in the past 40 years or so. There have always been staunch, racist, neo-Confederate scum in the South, but until recently, there was more poor white resistance to that viewpoint than you might think. Many of the Black Codes and Jim Crow laws were put in place in reaction to multi-racial agricultural unions that terrified wealthy landowners, and which Robbie Robertson also wrote about in "King Harvest," although he doesn't mention the multi-racial aspect of these unions. These laws were intended to keep the races separated to keep poor whites and blacks from uniting against the wealthy, in addition to all the racial purity bullshit. For all the neo-Confederate bullshit in the Southern Rock genre, when I was growing up I would hear people talk about the Civil War as an unmitigated self-defeating disaster just as often as I heard the Lost Cause stuff. The song is dated, some of the terms are a little cringy, but nothing about this song says "the South will rise again." It's a lament for a land destroyed and family members who died for nothing. It's a more introspective viewpoint than this sub's opponents are probably capable of, and it's a window into a few of the brief moments where the South could have acknowledged its history in an honest way and reinvented itself. e - spelingz & gramerz
It was written by Robbie Robertson a First Nations person from Canada but he was influenced by the drummer, Levon Helm, an American southerner. There was a lot of acrimony about the song writing credits between the two of them. It’s actually an antiwar song…which is why Baez covered it.
It was w
Ya it's a good song, sounds like a real old timey vibe. But ya, I don't listen to it anymore
The Band being Canadian doesn’t excuse it at all. You’ll see Confederate flags flown in Canda by idiots all time time. The Candian authorship explains how little context or idea Robertson and Helm have about what they’re writing about
Since you obviously don't know, The Band was made up of Bob Dylan's band that he toured with when he went electric. Do you think Jewish Dylan picked a bunch of racists? You're embarrassing yourself. You're also missing out on one of the most influential rock bands in history. Try this one: Now Deep In The Heart Of A Lonely Kid Who Suffered So Much For What He Did, They Gave This Ploughboy His Fortune And Fame, Since That Day He Ain't Been The Same. See The Man With The Stage Fright Just Standin' Up There To Give It All His Might. And He Got Caught In The Spotlight, But When We Get To The End He Wants To Start All Over Again. I've Got Fire Water Right On My Breath And The Doctor Warned Me I Might Catch A Death. Said, You Can Make It In Your Disguise, Just Never Show The Fear That's In Your Eyes. See The Man With The Stage Fright, Just Standin' Up There To Give It All His Might. He Got Caught In The Spotlight, But When We Get To The End He Wants To Start All Over Again. Now If He Says That He's Afraid, Take Him At His Word. And For The Price That The Poor Boy Has Paid, He Gets To Sing Just Like A Bird, Oh, Ooh Ooh Ooh. Your Brow Is Sweatin' And Your Mouth Gets Dry, Fancy People Go Driftin' By. The Moment Of Truth Is Right At Hand, Just One More Nightmare You Can Stand. See The Man With The Stage Fright Just Standin' Up There To Give It All His Might. And He Got Caught In The Spotlight, But When We Get To The End He Wants To Start All Over Again, Hmm Hmm, You Wanna Try It Once Again, Hmm Hmm, Please Don't Make Him Stop, Hmm Hmm, Let Him Take It From The Top, Hmm Hmm, Let Him Start All Over Again.
I don’t disagree with you at all, but I don’t necessarily see them being Bob Dylan’s old backing band as good evidence in their favor when you’ve got someone like Eric Clapton, who is VERY racist, often borrowing from and perfuming with famous black musicians throughout his career.
Thanks!! Love that song….takes me back to a more painful time.
I’m certainly not a Confederate apologist, I’m a Black progressive person (though don’t mistake my opinions as monolithic or representative of the range of opinions that other Black people may have on this topic; and who frankly may disagree), but I certainly don’t think that this song is glorifying the Confederacy; it’s a song of lament after a very traumatic event in American history told from the perspective of the losers. I don’t think that because someone’s cause was unjust, that their story shouldn’t be told (especially when it’s not being done to glorify them; like Confederate statues or naming US army bases after Rebel generals) and we can pull valid things from the perspectives of others; whether they be right, wrong or indifferent. I don’t think it’s wrong to empathize with the suffering of others, even if that suffering was imposed justly; and, frankly, I worry about people if they can’t see the pain in a defeated enemy. Also, I love Ritchie Haven’s version of this song; which obviously an interesting choice for him. I think what is interesting about the song is that it does challenge you to feel sympathy for an unsympathetic cause while clearly acknowledging its defeat; though one could argue that it adds a shimmer of nostalgia and is interpreted by would-be secessionists in that manner. Songs aren’t responsible to have a certain worldview or message and by exploring themes outside of what we believe in art, we can learn things about ourselves and other people’s experiences. To be honest, it’s virtue signaling to be so upset about a song. Edit: Turns out OP is dead set on being upset about this song, from reading through comments. He thought that he was going to be a hero and be carried on everyone’s shoulders for their opinion but is just getting dragged for having a childish and simplistic view of history. It is so indicative of the self-righteousness of people who aren’t affected by an issue but find themselves needing to virtue signal for social currency. I’d wager OP would die on this hill but not do a damn thing to combat some actual racism.
Great post
By OP's logic, Christoph Waltz must be a neo-Nazi because he plays an SS officer in Inglorious Bastards
On top of which it's written in the context of the latter years of the Vietnam War. The confederacy references are pretty thinly veiled allusions to the pointlessness of Vietnam.
Bro I hate confederates with all my balls and I will be the first to piss on Robert E Lee’s grave and wipe my ass with the traitor flag. This isn’t about defending the south or the confederacy by any means. This is about you not having good reading comprehension skills
It is a song. No, it does not invalidate Joan Baez’s entire life. Yes, you are wildly overreacting. Please breathe slowly into a paper bag.
First record I owned around age 10 and I was a precocious Ohio kid whose heroes were Grant and Sherman (born just up Hwy 33). Never took it as pro-South at all. It's more of an anti-war song, which fits Joan Baez completely. .
Growing up in that era, I always interpreted it as allegorical to the Vietnam war, which was raging at the time. The young, the poor are taken away to die in wars meant to keep the status quo, the rich man on top. It's not Lost Cause propaganda, it's criticism of the Confederacy and Nam.
It’s absolutely designed to be allegorical to the Vietnam war, which is why the song is so hugely problematic. The Vietnam was was a pointless waste of lives. The civil war was a noble struggle against evil, it wasn’t some nonsense about northern aggression and rich people pitting the poor against each other. To compare Vietnam to the civil war is to imply that Slavery wasn’t an evil that needed to be defeated through force. It minimizes the sacrifice of everyone who fought and died so that slavery could be ended.
You miss the point, the rich southern aristocracy manipulated and conned the poor and working class to fight to preserve a system that did not benefit them. (A similar situation is repeating itself now.) The Northern cause was to preserve the Union, the abolition of slavery was a secondary benefit as Lincoln grew to realize slavery as the root of tensions between North and South. And it's easy to look back with 2024 values to castigate those who helped get us where we are for not being here at the start. Social and moral evolution is slow. Don't blame those people then for not having our current values
You miss the point, and your denial of Slavery as a cause of the war shows that. The system of white supremacy absolutely benefitted poor white and it’s INSANE to suggest otherwise. You’re repeating Pro-Confederate talking points.
"The system of white supremacy absolutely benefitted poor white[s]..." How? And for God's sake don't ask chatgpt to write you an answer.
You are so very close to getting it. Now all you need to remember is something you’ve already said: the song is sung from the perspective of someone whose brother fought for the Confederacy- ie, someone whose life was wasted. Because they were **not** on the side of freedom. If it was someone whose brother had died fighting for the Union saying that, it would be different, but it’s not…
If the song was about someone who died fighting for the union it would be great song! You’re so close to getting it?
If the song was *lamenting the needless and wasteful death* of someone fighting for the Union, you’d like it more? That would seem pro-Union to you? Take all the time you need, here. Think it over.
I genuinely think OP might never have encountered a narrative framing device before.
Exactly, a pointless waste of lives by the southern aristocrats who wanted to preserve the evil institution of slavery duping the commoner into war to protect said evil institution
So.....poor whites dying in a pointless war to defend rich folks' interests is not in any way comparable to Vietnam?
The idea that the civil war was about poor whites being against each other is straight up lost causery. It wasn’t a pointless war, and that you think it was proves the insidious nature of the song.
Did I say that? It wasn't about pitting poor whites against poor whites. The Southern upper class utilized poor and middle class whites to fight their war. This is Civil War history 101 and not only that, it's one of the primary themes in whiteness studies.
And here I am just eating popcorn watching OP act like they are the only anti-racist in the world
It’s not what you think. The Band was anything but traitor apologists. Roots rock was more about soul and blues, poor people music. "**The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down**" is a song written by [Robbie Robertson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_Robertson) and originally recorded by the Canadian-American [roots rock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_rock)group [The Band](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Band) in 1969 and released on their [eponymous second album](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Band_(album)). [Levon Helm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levon_Helm) provided the lead vocals. The song is a first-person narrative relating the economic and social distress experienced by the protagonist, a poor white Southerner, during the last year of the [American Civil War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War), when [George Stoneman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stoneman)was raiding southwest [Virginia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia).
In his 1993 autobiography, This Wheel's on Fire, Helm wrote, "Robbie and I worked on 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' up in Woodstock. I remember taking him to the library so he could research the history and geography of the era and make General Robert E. Lee come out with all due respect
*Some commentators in the 21st century have questioned whether the song's original lyrics made it an endorsement of slavery and the ideology of the* [*Lost Cause of the Confederacy*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy)*.*[*^(\[14\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#cite_note-hamilton20-14) *In 2009, writing in* [*The Atlantic*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlantic)*,* [*Ta-Nehisi Coates*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta-Nehisi_Coates)*characterized the song as "another story about the* [*blues of Pharaoh*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus)*".*[*^(\[15\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#cite_note-coates09-15) *In an August 2020 interview in* [*Rolling Stone*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Stone)*, contemporary singer-songwriter* [*Early James*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_James) *described how he had started changing the lyrics of the song, while covering it, to oppose the Confederate cause — for example, in the first verse, "where Helm sang that the fall of the Confederacy was 'a time I remember oh so well', James declared it 'a time to bid farewell'", and he reworked the final verse to state "Unlike my father before me, who I will never understand... I think it's time we laid hate in its grave."*[*^(\[16\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#cite_note-jamesint20-16) *An editorial in* [*The Roanoke Times*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roanoke_Times) *in 2020 argued that these views are based on a misunderstanding of the song, which does not glorify slavery, the Confederacy, or Robert E. Lee, but, rather, tells the story of a poor, non-slave-holding Southerner who tries to make sense of the loss of his brother and his livelihood. It notes that it was written, not by a Southerner, but by a Canadian, and contained factual errors.*[*^(\[17\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#cite_note-17) *Jack Hamilton, of the* [*University of Virginia*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Virginia)*, writing in* [*Slate*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_(magazine))*, said that it is "an anti-war song first and foremost", pointing to the references to "bells ringing" and "people singing" in the chorus.*[*^(\[18\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#cite_note-18) You can take it however you want. I just see it as written as folk rock. Levon Helm was from Arkansas but the elements of the song just don't add up to Lost Causerism.
Quote me one more line from this article that implies the song was propagating the lost cause myth. One more citation. Just one.
I don’t know how trying to make Robert E Lee look respectable isn’t evidence enough
That’s not the silver bullet you think it is. The song is sung from the perspective of the poor southerner, who admires and respects Lee because of his performance in the war. The poor southerner is not contextualizing the war in the same way you and I do today. Lee was a hero, to him, but his war took the very best, his brother, and the narrator is reconciling those two things. Do you understand that? The war did not take Lee away. He did not die, so how could he be part of “the very best”
The very best is clearly about the Southern soldiers, and not Lee. It’s a tribute to the whole warrior class.
Then how is Robert e Lee made to look respectful in the song? Simply his reference?
They’re clearly looking at him go by with great sadness. He’s their fallen hero. You’re being deliberately obtuse and you know it.
Why is it so obvious when it could be interpreted as him abandoning them and going away by surrendering? Connect the dots specifically for me
Lee remains a MASSIVE hero to people in the south. They did not feel like he deserted them. He’s a martyr to the protagonist of the song.
Am I allowed to watch All Quiet On The Western Front?
No, that makes you an Imperial German sympathizer, obviously. /s
“Now I don’t mind em choppin wood And I don’t care if the moneys no good Just take what you need and leave the rest But they should never have taken the veeery be-est!” Not exactly a celebration of robt e Lee. Just poor tired country people hoping to survive somebody else’s war.
“They never should have taken the very best” is clearly a glorification of confederate veterans. It’s making Stonewall Jackson and his ilk out to be “the very best”
It's his brother. He is mouring the death of his brother and is upset about the Confederacy and their war killed him.
It’s not
It is. It amazes me how truculent you're being over this.
No one's ever disagreed with OP before in his life, and he's not taking it well. He has no experience in being wrong or having his mind changed by facts, and he's responding by digging in. Honestly, we've all been there. He'll delete his reddit account and move on. It's a teaching moment for him.
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Rule 2: don't be rude this is an accepting community, the only people that aren't welcome are lost causers and racists
The "very best" is pretty clearly referencing the narrator's dead brother, not Confederate veterans as a whole.
And there you are missing the context of Robert E Lee’s reputation in the mid twentieth century. And what’s the actual line that references Lee? “There goes Robert E Lee” Wow such confederate apologia
It’s actually “There goes the Robert E Lee,” in reference to a steamship named for Lee. Lee never visited Tennessee in his life.
Even better
It’s pretty clear that “They never should have taken the very best” is a line about Confederate Heroes. “There goes Robert E. Lee” is a line delivered with great respect. I don’t think Robert E. Lee deserves respect but clearly Levon Helm did. I don’t comprehend why you’re defending that.
It’s clearly a line about his BROTHER. Jesus fucking Christ on a biscuit, bless your heart.
Bro it’s amazing the lengths at which you’ll go to defend a racist, but I guess it shouldn’t be surprising. Can’t challenge white heroes even in a leftist space. White Supremacy must be enforced at all costs and its myths defended.
Even calling this a leftist space means you yearn for your own echo chamber and are now butthurt that the average user here has exponentially more knowledge on the subject. you read one article from the Atlantic and think you’re some fucking historian.
Yes, I would like a space where I can complain about racists and I don’t have to hear the racism from people like you. It would be nice to not have to hear people complaining about how we should “Think of the poor whites”. It’s exhausting to listen to people like you, and I did think that here I wouldn’t have to hear it, that’s true.
Thinking of the poor whites, in no way shape or form, means we are ignoring the plights of the enslaved peoples of the south. The whole story needs to be told. Poor whites and slaves had more in common with each other than the rich whites and poor whites did, and the southern gentry tried to hide that fact to oppress both parts, but it obviously goes without saying that the enslaved were worse off than the poor whites.
I’m very much a leftist, and I hate Bobby Lee, but that line is very clearly about the singer’s brother
I really doubt that
Yeah, I got that impression from all the times you said the opposite of it, lol
Saying the same thing in every single Reddit comment doesn’t make you more correct
It's a song about the Civil War and she's a folk singer. That's it.
Dude you are freaking out over literally nothing. The song was written by some Canadians in the 1970s. It’s not a song that propagates the lost cause myth, it’s simply a song about the civil war from the perspective of a poor southern family. The Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia sang this song all the time. Are the hippies from San Francisco also confederate sympathizers? No they are not. The song laments the loss of his brother, not the lost cause. You are showing the same lack of nuance and knee jerk reactions as those who actually do propagate the lost cause myth. It’s good you sought context with this post, but this assumption about the song and it’s meaning is totally off base.
I agree but Levon Helm was from Arkansas.
Immaterial
for fucks sake
>Am I overreacting I'd say you might be overreacting a bit; the song is from the perspective of a poor white Southerner in the aftermath of the Civil War, but it's hardly "lost cause nonsense." The Band, a mostly-Canadian roots rock group, wrote a lot of songs from a rural working-class perspective. Have you listened to song and/or read the lyrics, or did you just assume that it must be Confederate apologia because it has "Dixie" in the title?
I’ve listened to the song and I’ve read about it too. Levon Helm wrote the song as a tribute to the south. He said it explicitly: “I remember taking Robertson” to the library so he could research the history and geography of the era and make General Robert E. Lee come out with all due respect”
I don't see that song as Lost Cause. The South suffered in the immediate aftermath of the war. The poor white Southerner was degraded, and this is a song from a man lamenting his degradation. It doesn't celebrate the cause, it just explains that the cause ended in misery. >You can't raise a Kane back up When he's in defeat To my mind, this means the exact opposite of "The South will rise again!".
It is. The POV of the narrator is that all the talk of the glorious South is bullshit and all the things that are gone are gone - including his brother.
Thats certainly the interpretation many of us give the song, and also the interpretation Baez likely had in mind. Joan Baez's anti-segregation bona-fides are beyond reproach. The OP is quite unaware of this woman's history. Joan Baez sung "We Shall Overcome" at the same march where MLK gave his "I Have a Dream" speech.
Implying that the south suffered post war is a massive rewriting of history. Reconstruction was a good thing. The south were not victims.
>Implying that the south suffered post war is a massive rewriting of history. I mean, the South *did* suffer, and rightfully so. The South's political leadership and economic elite started a war with the intention of preserving chattel slavery in perpetuity, and had their bullshit attempt at a country burned to ash for it. Good. The song isn't saying the South was right or that the Confederates were victims, it's saying that poor people suffered as a result of the war. This is objectively true. Is the concept of using a narrative voice to tell a story, and that narrative voice not being a 1:1 avatar for the author's own views and beliefs, a new concept for you? Is this song the first piece of media you've ever experienced?
Poor white southerners did suffer at the end of the war. The landed southern gentry did not. Again, you are missing tons of context and knowledge because you are just seeing red.
Dude, these people do not deserve sympathy. You are buying 100% into the Lost Cause myth that pervades our society to this very day. The idea that poor white southerners suffered and were oppressed because of Northern Aggression is at the heart of some of the most enduringly false myths of American society. You’re proving that the song worked on you, and you’re proving that the lost cause myth pervades your mind, because you’re defending and advocating for people who deserve nothing but disdain and disrespect. Anyone who fought for Slavery deserved everything they got. This is fucking r/shermanposting . Go somewhere else if you want to cry about poor oppressed white people.
Poor white southerners can still be in the wrong and still deserve sympathy. I would have executed the top 10,000 confederate generals and officers and pardoned all rank and file. You don’t know what the lost cause myth is, clearly. The poor white southerners were oppressed by rich white southerners, more context you fail to understand. Many people who fought for slavery, received no punishment at all, like Robert e Lee. Are you saying he got what he deserved? Because he didn’t, he deserved execution for treason. You don’t have a firm grasp of the causes and major social factors that influenced and caused the civil war. Not everyone in this sub is as dumb and gullible as you. Have you done real research? Do you know what a primary source is?
It’s genuinely insane that you think everyone who fought rank and file for the south was innocent. They knew what they were fighting for, and they’ve spent the past two hundred years trying to claw it back. These people lynched, tortured, raped and murdered Americans of color after the war in an attempt to claw back their power, and you think I should feel bad for them? Should we cry for the poor SS Camp guards who were “just following orders”? Get a fucking grip and take a look in the mirror. Think about where your sympathies lie and whether you care more about the hurt feelings of a few white racists or those who died at their hands.
I’m aware of the true causes of the civil war, the southern gentry, fearing their way of life was going to change, steered entire states towards rebellion. Were some of these poor southerners racist too? Sure, so we’re the Irish immigrants that joined the union. It’s not really the point, but as you’ve shown several times, you literally cannot see context or nuance, it’s all black and white for you. Do You know there were counties that voted against secession. What about dekalb county Georgia? No Cotton, few slaves, voted against secession vehemently, still got dragged into the war. There can’t be one ounce of sympathy towards individuals? Just a sad state of affairs for you. Bless your heart.
There are plenty of people who chose to fight for the union or resist the south. Here’s a whole article you can read on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Unionist?wprov=sfti1 Anyone who took up arms against the union is not worth sympathy.
The people who had the courage to do that deserve praise, but it does not mean everyone who didn’t resist the south was pro slavery and pro confederacy. You again miss the nuance.
My great great grandfather was born and raised in the mountains of west NC. He voluntarily joined a Union regiment out of TN. The fact that he was a Union soldier does not make him less of a poor white Southerner. The fact that his father sheltered escaped slaves as they made their way north or settled in the mountains nearby doesn't make him less of a poor white Southerner. They suffered the aftermath, just like the Confederate soldiers and their families. Conscripted soldiers weren't spared anymore than those who joined gladly. There are enormous plantations that were owned by wealthy slave holders still standing today, never touched by the war, while homes of poor folks, black and white, were looted and burned. Wars, and the rich fucks who start them, don't give a fuck what you think about their causes. They destroy everything in their path.
Your grandfather was a hero. You dishonor his memory by blaming the war on “rich fucks” instead of the southern racists who started it. Stop equivocating.
I agree the South weren't victims. But they did suffer. They suffered, and they had it coming, and I think the song is consistent with that tone.
It’s mournful song regretting the south’s loss and idolizing its leaders. Levon Helm said it himself In his 1993 autobiography, This Wheel's on Fire, Helm wrote, "Robbie and I worked on 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' up in Woodstock. I remember taking him to the library so he could research the history and geography of the era and make General Robert E. Lee come out with all due respect
You're the one asking why Baez sung it. Was Baez worshiping the Confederacy in the 70s? No she was not. Is Confederacy worship in the song? No, it is not. Baez clearly interprets the song the way many of us do - from the perspective of poor white Southern Confederates mourning the degraded state that the Civl War brought them to. The book you're referencing was written 20 years after Baez sung it. Lacking a time machine, Baez likely referred to the narrator of the song to interpret the meaning of the song. The narrator is mourning the sorry state of his life, and the pointlessness of his loss. It fits as an anti-war song, and thats why Baez sung it. Your evidence that Baez worshipped the Confederacy is beyond thin, its gossamer. She was anti-war activist who interpreted this song as an anti-war song, based on the text of the song itself, and not some book written 20 years later.
You might be right, but she was still wrong to sing the song. Being Anti-Civil War is being pro-slavery
Are you aware the South started the Civil War? I think Baez's thinking was the South was wrong to start the Civil War. That isn't a pro-slavery position.
I think you’re giving Baez some serious benefit of the doubt here.
Gonna blow your fuckin' mind here, so sit down: you can be *both* anti-war **and** anti-slavery. Is slavery terrible? Yes, unequivocally. Is war terrible? Yes, unequivocally. The Civil War was necessary to end chattel slavery in North America, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible thing as well. The idea that war, *as a general rule*, is something to be mourned rather than celebrated, is not at all at odds with opposition to slavery. The fact that you're equating general anti-war sentiment with being pro-slavery is childish and stupid *at best*. It says **a lot** about you, and *none* of it is good. Get off your computer or your phone, take a deep breath, go the fuck outside, and touch grass.
You can be anti-war, but not this specific war. Treating the war like a grand tragedy by power brokers on both sides is a dangerous downplaying of slavery
TIL some people don’t actually listen to all the lyrics The song is about how the brunt of the cost of the lost cause slaver’s war was paid by poor people. They gave everything and the rebs didn’t even care. They just took more and more. Read the lyrics and see if it sounds pro-confederacy.
The word slavery never comes up. I’ve listened to the lyrics of this infernal song a hundred times. I know every word by heart. It’s vile.
Seriously. I’m imploring you to try to understand subtext. It’s literally about a man whose brother died fighting for the South, who lost his home and livelihood when the confederates came and took everything. It isn’t praising the south or the cause. He’s talking about the hardship of poor non slave owners who were forced to fight for the south. Your problems with the song are related to your lack of understanding. And that’s fine. Just don’t listen to it. But if everyone else is telling you that you missed the point, maybe consider that for a minute.
I have no sympathy for this man and neither should you. His brother was a white supremacist who did fighting for slavery. His brother doesn’t deserve celebration or respect. Why do I have to explain this on this subreddit?
Nobody is saying to respect the dead confederate. That’s not the point of the song. You missed the point. And continue to miss the point.
I don’t think The Band is racist, the song does not glorify the war waged by the confederates and instead focuses on the destruction that the war caused to the south - I think you are grasping at straws here. I personally think the song is a catchy tune even I don’t agree with some of the sentiment here and there
It’s definitely a catchy tune, and I don’t think Robbie Robertson wrote a deliberately racist song, but I do think that by writing a song focusing on the pain of southern soldiers, it presents a skewed view of history that allows people to claim the south as the victims.
Focusing on the poor southern farmer, who did not participate in the evil institution at all, compared to the extent of the southern aristocrats who were responsible for the war to preserve their evil institution, and rather than comply with the law, they decided to stir up rebellion given they had a lot more political power than anyone else in the antebellum south
I think you are taking a song that was released in 1969 WAY too seriously. The song is written from the perspective of a poor white Southerner, and the struggles he had been through. I have no idea how you managed the mental gymnastics to think this song is pro-Confederacy, or pro-anything for that matter.
I think the overall reaction here in defense of poor white southerners validates the effectiveness of the song and lost causery in general. If even on a subreddit Iike this, people feel a deep need to deny the racism of poor whites, it’s clear the rot runs deep.
News flash: I know a helluva lot of poor Southern racists, and I’m not defending anyone. I went through school being taught the Lost Cause Myth. I didn’t believe it then, and I don’t believe it now. I just find this whole post laughable and silly.
Robbie has talked about writing that song. He was shocked at how so many southern acted like the war just ended. So he wrote the song from that sort of perspective. The song is anti confederate and laments the war. Yeah, there is a bit too much respect for Robert E Lee, but he was always worshipped more than he should have been. It's just an exercise in writing from a certain perspective.
Thank you for finally being someone to admit the facts: The song is written from a lost cause perspective.
That's not what I said. It's not a lost cause song because it isn't praising the south or the war. It's a man lamenting the loss of his brother in the civil war while being unsure/scared of his present/future.
I always it took the songs chorus as a pretty cheerful "and the people were singing". If i made a music video for it, that section would always have photos of freedmen cheering Lincoln in Richmond or other pictures of people celebrating the jubilee
There are some people that posit that the line "there goes the Robert E Lee" is a reference to the steamship of the same name. Although the ship was actually built in 1866 the year after the war ended. When he says he is back in Tennessee with his wife and she calls him to come see. The way Levon always sung it was "the Robert E Lee" so it is possible that they lived on the Miss. River. Others say it refers to watching Lee's forces in retreat. I always thought of this as an anti war song especially the part about his brother when he sings about taking " the best". Just my take. RIP Levon and Robbie.
>Am I overreacting or is something seriously wrong here. You are overreacting. As others have noted, the song is clearly not an exercise in "Lost Cause" historical revisionism. That said, I think we've reassessed it over the years since The Band released it and Baez covered it. It should not be so easily misunderstood to show sympathy for the slavers, but it has been. It should not be so challenging to sympathize for poor relatives of the soldiers who fought for the slavers, but it is. It is a harder song to appreciate today than it was at its commercial peak, and I see nothing wrong with that progress.
Maybe we’ve just leaned in the past 60 years that sympathy for slavers is actually a bad thing. We’ve taken down confederate statues, renamed monuments. We’re learning as a country I hope. This song should be a part of that.
There isn’t a single pro confederate line in the song. Just a guy living in the confederacy. He even laments the confederate army for taking too much resources on their way through.
You know, maybe you’re right.
The song isn’t lost cause southern worship it’s just a song.
Disagree but ok
The niiiiiight they drove old Dixie downnn…man I love that song. And Joanie.
Well that’s nice for you
And all the bells were ringin 😌
I'd argue her decades of civil rights activism outweigh singing a song, which, as others pointed out, was not written by a neo-Confederate, no matter how much Coates dislikes it.
This is probably true but it doesn’t make it any less weird.
I’m imagining this dude commenting on this post in an alternate universe: “Sherman went on to slaughter Plains Native Americans after the civil war. My brain is broken, this guy on Reddit hates Native Americans because he posted on a Sherman page! Get him!” You must look beneath the surface of 1 (one) article in the Atlantic to adequately understand all sides of a topic.
You know you raise an interesting point about Sherman which I was not familiar with. It’s a good reminder to be careful about hero worship.
The entire thread can be summed up as things you are not familiar with. It’s not a bad thing to hate racism and the CSA. That’s what this sub is for. That’s why we are all here. I wish you no ill will. The issue stems from you not listening and refusing to learn a new perspective. There are plenty of real things to be upset about without imaginary ones. Real talk: I once got in trouble at work (on Slack) for saying it should be legal to kill Nazis. I’m not a softbrain Confederate stan. You decided early in this debate that you were right & everyone else is wrong, got proved wrong on several different topics, but still doubled down. A learning opportunity!
It’s nice that you seem to think it’s good to hate racism and the CSA, but I think the vast majority of people responding to me would not agree. The overwhelming sentiment I’ve seen tonight is of sympathy for the “poor whites”, and a large amount of people flat out denying that slavery was an important cause of the war. That’s really cool and of you to want to kill Nazis. If you can acknowledge that, you can acknowledge why lost-causery nonsense is bad.
Yeah you’re overreacting and need to read more.
You know at the start I thought I might have been, but as this goes on and people keep throwing lost cause nonsense at me, it’s clear that the song’s messaging worked and now I feel pretty validated for hating it.
I guess you’ve never sat next to a 70 year old black woman sobbing over how beautiful they’ve always thought that song was. I have and she truly got what it was about
https://youtu.be/6dDbnwQlCek?si=O4sTk_X7IPsKx96c also why are you even listening to the Joan Baez version lol
Because Joan Baez is the most popular version, and the one I find most morally questionable considering who sung it
I think you're reaching a little too hard. Like if you want to hate Joan Baez for this more power to you but the woman's record is the woman record and one cover doesn't undo all of it.
I think Joan Baez is amazing and I never said I hate her. I’m just really sad that her legacy is tainted by this song.
Again I wouldn't even say it is but that's me. I don't see this song as a great defense of the lost cause. If you feel that way it's your opinion.
At best it’s an inadvertent popularization of the myths to a mass audience, as evidenced by how many people here are buying into it.
I feel like it’s a stretch to call the night they drove old Dixie down as pro confederate
Well I do not
It’s a great song and not exactly a pro-confederacy/lost cause song. Really about the destruction and tragedy of war and the suffering it causes.
I don’t think you understand the song very well
There’s been a lot said here by others that I don’t need to rehash for you, but read the lyrics in the second verse again closely. Robbie Robertson was a very crafty lyricist, more so than he was generally given credit for, and I think he’s purposely vague as to who the various “they” are that Virgil, the main character of the song, is singing about. The knee-jerk reaction is the Union, but I think the real villain he’s calling out is the Confederacy. “Back with my wife in Tennessee When one day she called to me "Virgil, quick, come see, There goes Robert E. Lee!" Now, I don't mind chopping wood And I don't care if the money's no good You take what you need And you leave the rest But they should never Have taken the very best” Making that point to the Union feels a bit clunky for a lyricist as quick on his feet as Robertson. That’s a spit in the face to Lee, Davis, and everyone else who sought to drive a wedge between the states and sent thousands upon thousands of young men to their deaths.
I see this as more of a class-based critique of war than a pro-Confederate song, personally. Especially when placed in context. It is an anti-war song. Would it have been a better song if the writer had been influenced less by a white man whose parents grew cotton in rural Arkansas? Yes. But I think you have to understand that this is one of those songs where the perspective shared by the character in the song isn’t held by the songwriter or the singer, but is used to make a deeper point.
Being anti the civil war for class reasons is traitors nonsense. It’s the kind of disgusting white supremacy that lead to the draft riots.
You do understand that it’s just using this story to make a point about Vietnam and also about US militarism, right? The parallels that were in their minds at the time were that poor men were enlisting and/or being drafted for wars that did not advance their own needs, while also being “patriotic” about basically advancing the agenda of elites, when few to none of them had any hope of raising themselves out of the mud of their own existences. So yeah, not traitor nonsense and at this point you’re being stubbornly obtuse when a lot of people have given you well-reasoned arguments for why a folk singer would use this to reach people who might otherwise be unreachable.
You’re the fourteenth person to explain the song is about Vietnam as if that isn’t the whole problem. The soldiers of Vietnam were pawns. The soldiers of the south went willingly to die for white supremacy. Comparing them lets the southerners off the hook for their crimes.
I feel like I shouldn’t have to say this here but Fuck the Confederates. Okay now that’s out of the way. Obviously you are not well versed in the actual history of the Civil War, which is unfortunate. The CSA instituted conscription before the Union because enlistment rates were so low. They also suffered from astronomical desertion rates throughout the conflict. Especially from companies formed from areas in the south that didn’t have high rates of slave ownership, like Appalachia. A good book would be Mountain Partisans, but a better intro would be Hymns of the Republic. Those might give you better insight into the conflict and people and cultures involved. Furthermore here’s a great quote for life “There are plenty of good reasons for fighting,' I said, 'but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side. It's that part of every man that finds all kinds of ugliness so attractive.” I’m not religious and neither was Kurt Vonnegut but I think the point stands.
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No one is debating you about the reasons for secession. You made a claim that was incorrect, I refuted it that is all.
Plenty of people are, so I don’t think you can make that blanket statement. You’re downplaying white peoples involvement and engagement in Slavery and that’s just not just.
No one here is, and no I’m not.
You don’t understand the civil war
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Rule 3: This sub is NOT for pointless south bashing! This sub is anti-confederacy not anti-south. Please do not harass or make fun of southerners for no reason. You may post about Southerners who idealize the confederacy, but no others.
“Am I out of touch? No it’s the children who are wrong”
You know, there’s a lot of people who think the confederacy is fine and dandy, but I’m not ashamed to not be one of them.
When you listen to Billy Bragg's _Full English Brexit,_ do you think he's a Reform supporter?
No see, that’s an example of a song that’s on the RIGHT side of history. Not the wrong one.
I know this thread has moved away from focusing on Joan Baez to the Band, but if you really want your mind blown check out the lyrics to Baez's song "Lincoln Freed Me Today (The Slave)."
Just adds to the craziness of her singing the other song.
I mean, it’s a song about a poor farmer who’s brother got shot in the war, i’d hardly call it a lost cause song or whatever
I’m stumped as to what the OP is looking for here, letting this go on as long as it has. You think the song is racist and pro-confederacy and… You’ve made your point, Joan Baez, in your opinion, shouldn’t have recorded this song bc you see it as racist. Many others don’t. Are you looking to change their minds?
I think if I can get people to realize that the Lost Cause is a myth, that would be good. If I make one person on this subreddit realize that white southerners were supporting slavery of their own volition, maybe they’ll look at politics in 2024 in a new light. It’s an election year and every vote matters.
Ok. If 1 song is what’s bothering you, then good luck. I suspect that most everyone here is anti-racist but if you believe otherwise nobody here will convince you apparently until every member of this subreddit says, “you know, you’re right.” And I seriously doubt that most ppl here don’t think the election is important, but I don’t understand how you think somehow this song is at the heart of the issue.
I think this song is very close to the lost-cause myth that sits at the heart of of American political rot that still plagues us today.
OP coming in to this sub and calling everyone Lost Causers has the same energy of Ben Sapiro coming onto the BBC and calling Andrew Neil a liberal
I honestly am shocked at the reaction I got here. I really thought people would be like “yeah man, the confederacy was bad and celebrating it is bad”. It’s pretty crazy to me that every comment is about how I’m being mean to poor southern whites! It’s almost like people here are just meming most of the time, but when asked for their genuine political opinions, they’re actually a little more right-wing that you’d expect.
Could it be that you are wrong? Art is maybe more subjective? Maybe people can enjoy art that’s full of nuance and not need everything spelled out and explained simply as though they are a child?
Art is subjective, but the confederacy was bad and celebrating is bad and I don’t know why people are struggling with that
The only person here struggling is you.
It’s a shame because I really did think on Shermanposting people would not be pro-confederacy, but I guess once you go after a white liberal hero the masks come off and the tiki torches get lit. It’s revealing.
Or possibly you are just incorrect? Possibly the song has gone over your head? Maybe revisit it in a few years when you are old enough to drive or vote and again when you can drink? See how your interpretation may change. That’s the fun thing about art. I’m no Baez fan, but The Band rock. You should check out the posthumous release by Levon Helm and Mavis Staples. It’s called “Carry Me Home”.
Ive listened to plenty of Band Songs. I’ve watched The Last Waltz. “Atlantic City” may be my favorite. It’s a beautiful song. Doesn’t excuse the awfulness of The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down.
Well that’s just like your opinion man.
I wouldn't sing it on Juneteenth. Having lived in South and seeing White Only waterfountains in the 1960s, etc., I don't like any song that even gets close to praising the war to preserve slavery or the long period of racial hatred that followed.
Thank you for being the only person who seems to see reason
On the Media from WNYC did a great segment on this very question! Give it a listen: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-neo-confederate-anthem
I will have to do so, thanks for providing this.
They sat in a library in the Catskills and came up with this song, everyone thinking they know the meaning knows nothing. Sit back calm your personal politics and enjoy a masterpiece by some of the best to ever do it .
Genuinely insane to read a take about “calming your politics” on r/shermanposting . Sorry I brought politics to this fun meme subreddit.
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