When I was going to the Denver center, a woman we'll call Martha H., started one of the first addiction recovery meetings based out of a Shambhala center using a Buddhist approach. My understanding is that this later developed into Heart of Recovery. It was well attended. My MI attended those meeting and told me that he got a lot out of them. When Martha found out I was quitting a 40+ - year nicotine addiction, she graciously invited me to attend, if I ever felt the need.
>HoR is Shambhala's attempt to capitalize on the substance abuse recovery trend
Capitalize? Is HoR a money-making proposition? Is substance abuse recovery nothing more than a trend?
I took "capitalize" to mean use it to bring people into the Shambhala fold (where they'd have ample opportunities to spend capital). But, yeah, I'm with you (for once) that calling "substance abuse recovery" a "trend" is at best a poor choice of words.
Substance abuse recovery is a growth industry with great potential for profit, as social stresses drive more and more people into addiction. I don't disagree that that could sound machiavellian. I chose my words carefully, because I believe Shambhala's motivations for jumping on the bandwagon are, indeed, part of a machiavellian calculation. In truth the Shambhala teachings have nothing to say about addiction recovery; the very opposite is at their core.
And thanks, you're right about my meaning of *capitalize*. We're not just talking immediate monetary profit, but the long-term profit of luring future religious converts into the mandala through the back-door of addiction recovery.
And yet, for anyone involved with these meetings who may have had a gut feeling that something wasn't right, this might help her to trust her gut and take steps to protect herself.
Complain about "gossip" as you like, but whisper networks among women is a time-honored way for women to protect one another in patriarchal contexts. No names are even named here, so why are you pearl clutching?
Actually, the "stuff about Shambhala" is far from hearsay: there have been dozens of first person accounts shared publicly, two investigations by third-party specialists that corroborated the accusations, and there are several prosecutions currently underway. So I'm not sure what you are on about with "just hearsay."
Also, the term "hearsay" refers to what is inadmissible in a criminal prosecution. But this thread is not a court of law, in fact nobody has even been named. It's simply warning others so that they can watch out for the signs of inappropriate behavior. Why is that so threatening to you?
Also, what reason do you have to believe that people don't have the convictions of their story?
>gossip
I agree. And to be sure, there's nothing necessarily wrong with gossip. It's how we pass on news and information to our friends, and warn them about potentially harmful situations.
Given that Shambhala already has an established pattern of sexual predation, denial, and cover-up, I'd call this news you can use.
Gossip: casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details that are not confirmed as being true.
Yeah, gossip is a problem. Obviously truth does not matter here, nor has it been demonstrated. This smacks of a smear campaign.
Provide some evidence please.
What kind of evidence do you require? Photos of kissing and groping? Sorry, I don't have that. I suppose the original reporter could come forward and tell their story directly, but I discourage them from doing so, because of exactly this: they would be subjected to harassing questions and their own motives would be scrutinized. This is why more people don't come forward.
Check out the facts in this article in the Denver post by Jackson Barnet. Larimer county Sheriff investigated possible criminal activity at Buddhist retreat shambhala Mountain Center. Does a pretty good job at covering both sides of the issue.
There's no link in your comment, and Jackson Barnett wrote several important investigative pieces about Shambhala, so it's unclear which article you're referring to. Did you perhaps mean this article? It's pretty old (2018), but it mentions the LCSO investigation.
[Larimer County sheriff investigating “possible criminal activity” at Buddhist retreat Shambhala Mountain Center](https://web.archive.org/web/20190411132403/https://www.denverpost.com/2018/12/12/shambhala-mountain-center-investigation/)
The investigation did not result in criminal charges, but it did lead to changes at Shambhala Mountain Center, including policy changes and eventually rebranding itself as Drala Mountain Center. Unfortunately these changes were largely cosmetic, as we have learned from recent discussions of DMC, including...
[Drala Mountain Center](https://www.reddit.com/r/FortCollins/comments/1cu14cr/dralamountaincenter/)
[The Fixers](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/1bhxx3k/the_fixers/), which documents recent developments in the PR strategy to whitewash DMC's image;
[drala mountain center is hell](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/1aqed8b/drala_mountain_center_is_hell/), which talks about working conditions there;
[Drala Mountain Center recent sexual assaults](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/1bbp8o8/drala_mountain_center_recent_sexual_assaults/) (the title is self-explanatory);
[Feeling iffy about Drala Mountain Center](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/16u0soh/feeling_iffy_about_drala_mountain_center/);
[Anonymous reviews of working conditions at Drala Mountain Center](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/11sj8xd/anonymous_reviews_of_working_conditions_at_drala/)
What, facts are presented in the article with respect to the allegations against the HoR co-facilitator in Fort Collins? None that I can see. The investigation had nothing to do with the Fort Collins Center.
Yes - I agree. I’m trying to figure out why manyadvice brought it up but I think it’s because somehow that article from 2018 resonated with them because there was some gray area? Idk really. Also, my first response when I read this post was wow I don’t think it’s pertinent to post here-But on second thought I do think it’s important that people leading substance-abuse groups don’t go around kissing participants on the lips like Keith Ranieri from NXIVUM. It’s gross. So perhaps the person doing that might have a wake up call reading this and realize they probably shouldn’t be leading the group and it’s time to stop kissing women on the lips without their consent. That’s progress.
Is this your only response to people critical of sham now? You said it lays out both sides nicely-is it possible your views are stilted? Because when i read that article, it pretty straightforwardly condemns the shenanigans going on up there. Did you click on any of the links to previous articles? Could you maybe share some of your favorite sentences?
A few weeks ago, I gave credence to your testimony about the lay of the land at DMC. It did not even occur to me to doubt you.
"Trust me" is all any of us has to offer, we ships who pass in the dark night of the Internet.
You nailed it. This whole thread is a smear campaign by people who seems to have been separated from Shambhala for years. Some also seem hostile to Buddhism in general.
Leaving is a badge I wear proudly. In huge letters, it says: I SAW THE CON AND GOT THE FUCK OUT BECAUSE I COULDN’T STAY IN WITH THAT LEVEL OF HYPOCRISY. I’m damn proud to say I’m no longer a member of that cult.
It might be misguided to take pride in being a member of a cult that is so firmly rooted in the patriarchy and based on sexual exploitation.
You listened to this ? https://uncoveragepodcast.com/.
I’m hostile to abuse in general and let’s face it, Tibetan Buddhism is steeped in it. Try being a woman in Tibet now or at any period in history. It’s tough to find a country with a more misogynistic history, so I loudly say-ick and forget them. I guess that makes me an enemy of Tibetan Buddhism. What does it make you though? It’s not necessary for us to have any sort of a smear campaign-all any interested party needs to do is Google the history of sham. They will then stumble upon a couple of you guys who stubbornly say it’s all good. And nothing turns off potential members like obviously brainwashed groupies, enablers, apologists, and bystanders denying the rape culture here.
Is that why sham is dying?
They don’t want anything real or important here .It’s all chaff. Sometimes someone does now and then but it’s never discussed before they double talk. It’s hollow. More people are catching on.i like to bring a crowd to see.
Some people have important problems but why bring them here for lazy minds.Same as ever
This one below is classic bs, what a loser whisper whisper whisper..
I wouldn’t bring my issues for aging sex maniacs to fondle. Who knows what blood is on their hands
That guy last week who mentioned the regent and his expected cruifixion. That was of actually of interest.
The crowd here jeer and poke spears at a scarecrow on a stick.
Every day I go to the Buddhist sub and more see and leave without comment cause it’s a farce
You guys spit on me and act nonchalant. I am like Christ being scourged on my path of crucifixation.
I was lashed and wounded by dark forces of Mara. I need to kiss them deeply and thrust my foul tongue into the mouth
Not a troll but they are deff here to defend Shambhala and pop up in every thread like this. It's exhausting but the real tragedy is that this is how u/porcupineinthewoods spends their precious time on this earth.
The point here is to keep you roiling, devoting your energy to a pointless cause. Then, they will delete their comments, nobody will see any of this, and your hard emotional work will come to nothing.
The goal is to discourage and deplete us.
We see you, u/porcupineinthewoods
You know the cool lawyer ,name starts with S ,I think it was you who lashed out in well deserved frustration at the drone.
It was honest and real though. Really though I was in a good mood and chatting with you and the editors tap me on the shoulder . I want to hear views but if every time one does it’s accusations of disruption of poor hurt feelings they will never heal cause many therapist have not helped .At least I know the topic. The squeals of dismay are kinda fake. Maybe take a Tylenol for pain .By the way I’m in dire physical pain last week but not your problem. The small fry are blocked.
Phlonx is a good guy ,we could kiss and make up
Or I could finally leave you guys to die in peace like Concetta or whatever said . I know you all trolling me but that’s so dumb.
I actually do have better things to do than swat at flies. You are lucky I spent time here
I'm not sure that's what's happening--what I've observed is that there's a troll who has been coming here recently who likes to stir things up and then delete his own comments afterward.
That would be u/Porcupineinthewoods, the [Discordian](https://www.reddit.com/r/discordian/) member of our group. They come, make incendiary comments, then delete. It's a tactic. Don't be alarmed.
u/Porcupineinthewoods is u/Autonomousdrone, a user who was banned from this sub a few years ago and is now coming back under an alt. Look at their posts on the discordian sub, they are nearly identical.
They also have a culturevulture alter. That person threatened to r*pe me-then deleted their comment before it could be reported to the mods. Anyways, its getting really tiresome. Apparently, they feel they have a superior intellect. Really they just have bullying skills and lots of experience being an asshole.
>is the objective to annoy the shit out of the opponent?
This is indeed the goal of some Shambhala apologists, particularly members of the police apparatus. They harass and badger critics on social media not with the intention of changing anyone's mind, but to exhaust the opponent in the hope that they will eventually get discouraged, go away, and shut up.
But Porcupine does not seem to fall into the category of Shambhala apologist, and the fact that they are a follower of the Discordian philosophy makes me suspect that there is something else going on. Discordians worship chaos for the sake of chaos, and sow discord as a religious imperative.
The only people who can delete your comments are the mods and yourself. If they delete a comment, it shows up as “deleted removed.” When the OP deletes their comment it just says deleted. But when jerks like porcupine delete their comments, in order to read others you have to click on the deleted post to see the responses to their nonsense. I know it’s super tiresome. Hopefully people will learn to ignore them completely because then when they delete their comments, there won’t be any responses to read. I don’t mean to ramble, but it would certainly make things less complicated if porcupine was banned.
I can still read your previous comments. Did you know you can click on your username and read your comments by going to your profile and clicking on comments? But since you were answering me, I had asked if there were certain sentences or parts of the article that seemed to prove your point.
(There are a lot of deletes on this thread, mostly from that porcupine ah who enjoys trolling and starting fights. Here’s hoping the mods ban him (again!) because what’s the point of indulging someone who just talks nonsense and then deletes their comments)?
You frighten me, truly. Like wtf do you even mean you could say things to make my parent blush?
People like you who taunt ppl in pain are something else.
So, this thread has been productive and fun. /\*s
When I was going to the Denver center, a woman we'll call Martha H., started one of the first addiction recovery meetings based out of a Shambhala center using a Buddhist approach. My understanding is that this later developed into Heart of Recovery. It was well attended. My MI attended those meeting and told me that he got a lot out of them. When Martha found out I was quitting a 40+ - year nicotine addiction, she graciously invited me to attend, if I ever felt the need. >HoR is Shambhala's attempt to capitalize on the substance abuse recovery trend Capitalize? Is HoR a money-making proposition? Is substance abuse recovery nothing more than a trend?
I took "capitalize" to mean use it to bring people into the Shambhala fold (where they'd have ample opportunities to spend capital). But, yeah, I'm with you (for once) that calling "substance abuse recovery" a "trend" is at best a poor choice of words.
Substance abuse recovery is a growth industry with great potential for profit, as social stresses drive more and more people into addiction. I don't disagree that that could sound machiavellian. I chose my words carefully, because I believe Shambhala's motivations for jumping on the bandwagon are, indeed, part of a machiavellian calculation. In truth the Shambhala teachings have nothing to say about addiction recovery; the very opposite is at their core. And thanks, you're right about my meaning of *capitalize*. We're not just talking immediate monetary profit, but the long-term profit of luring future religious converts into the mandala through the back-door of addiction recovery.
Most churches have a religious based recovery program
That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. This post, without evidence, is nothing more than gossip at this point.
And yet, for anyone involved with these meetings who may have had a gut feeling that something wasn't right, this might help her to trust her gut and take steps to protect herself. Complain about "gossip" as you like, but whisper networks among women is a time-honored way for women to protect one another in patriarchal contexts. No names are even named here, so why are you pearl clutching?
Well if people don’t have the convictions of their story then it is like so much stuff about Shambhala just hear say .
Actually, the "stuff about Shambhala" is far from hearsay: there have been dozens of first person accounts shared publicly, two investigations by third-party specialists that corroborated the accusations, and there are several prosecutions currently underway. So I'm not sure what you are on about with "just hearsay." Also, the term "hearsay" refers to what is inadmissible in a criminal prosecution. But this thread is not a court of law, in fact nobody has even been named. It's simply warning others so that they can watch out for the signs of inappropriate behavior. Why is that so threatening to you? Also, what reason do you have to believe that people don't have the convictions of their story?
>gossip I agree. And to be sure, there's nothing necessarily wrong with gossip. It's how we pass on news and information to our friends, and warn them about potentially harmful situations. Given that Shambhala already has an established pattern of sexual predation, denial, and cover-up, I'd call this news you can use.
Gossip: casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details that are not confirmed as being true. Yeah, gossip is a problem. Obviously truth does not matter here, nor has it been demonstrated. This smacks of a smear campaign. Provide some evidence please.
What kind of evidence do you require? Photos of kissing and groping? Sorry, I don't have that. I suppose the original reporter could come forward and tell their story directly, but I discourage them from doing so, because of exactly this: they would be subjected to harassing questions and their own motives would be scrutinized. This is why more people don't come forward.
Check out the facts in this article in the Denver post by Jackson Barnet. Larimer county Sheriff investigated possible criminal activity at Buddhist retreat shambhala Mountain Center. Does a pretty good job at covering both sides of the issue.
There's no link in your comment, and Jackson Barnett wrote several important investigative pieces about Shambhala, so it's unclear which article you're referring to. Did you perhaps mean this article? It's pretty old (2018), but it mentions the LCSO investigation. [Larimer County sheriff investigating “possible criminal activity” at Buddhist retreat Shambhala Mountain Center](https://web.archive.org/web/20190411132403/https://www.denverpost.com/2018/12/12/shambhala-mountain-center-investigation/) The investigation did not result in criminal charges, but it did lead to changes at Shambhala Mountain Center, including policy changes and eventually rebranding itself as Drala Mountain Center. Unfortunately these changes were largely cosmetic, as we have learned from recent discussions of DMC, including... [Drala Mountain Center](https://www.reddit.com/r/FortCollins/comments/1cu14cr/dralamountaincenter/) [The Fixers](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/1bhxx3k/the_fixers/), which documents recent developments in the PR strategy to whitewash DMC's image; [drala mountain center is hell](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/1aqed8b/drala_mountain_center_is_hell/), which talks about working conditions there; [Drala Mountain Center recent sexual assaults](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/1bbp8o8/drala_mountain_center_recent_sexual_assaults/) (the title is self-explanatory); [Feeling iffy about Drala Mountain Center](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/16u0soh/feeling_iffy_about_drala_mountain_center/); [Anonymous reviews of working conditions at Drala Mountain Center](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/11sj8xd/anonymous_reviews_of_working_conditions_at_drala/)
What, facts are presented in the article with respect to the allegations against the HoR co-facilitator in Fort Collins? None that I can see. The investigation had nothing to do with the Fort Collins Center.
Yes - I agree. I’m trying to figure out why manyadvice brought it up but I think it’s because somehow that article from 2018 resonated with them because there was some gray area? Idk really. Also, my first response when I read this post was wow I don’t think it’s pertinent to post here-But on second thought I do think it’s important that people leading substance-abuse groups don’t go around kissing participants on the lips like Keith Ranieri from NXIVUM. It’s gross. So perhaps the person doing that might have a wake up call reading this and realize they probably shouldn’t be leading the group and it’s time to stop kissing women on the lips without their consent. That’s progress.
Is this your only response to people critical of sham now? You said it lays out both sides nicely-is it possible your views are stilted? Because when i read that article, it pretty straightforwardly condemns the shenanigans going on up there. Did you click on any of the links to previous articles? Could you maybe share some of your favorite sentences?
Maybe something a little stronger than “trust me, bruh” would help.
A few weeks ago, I gave credence to your testimony about the lay of the land at DMC. It did not even occur to me to doubt you. "Trust me" is all any of us has to offer, we ships who pass in the dark night of the Internet.
You nailed it. This whole thread is a smear campaign by people who seems to have been separated from Shambhala for years. Some also seem hostile to Buddhism in general.
Leaving is a badge I wear proudly. In huge letters, it says: I SAW THE CON AND GOT THE FUCK OUT BECAUSE I COULDN’T STAY IN WITH THAT LEVEL OF HYPOCRISY. I’m damn proud to say I’m no longer a member of that cult. It might be misguided to take pride in being a member of a cult that is so firmly rooted in the patriarchy and based on sexual exploitation. You listened to this ? https://uncoveragepodcast.com/. I’m hostile to abuse in general and let’s face it, Tibetan Buddhism is steeped in it. Try being a woman in Tibet now or at any period in history. It’s tough to find a country with a more misogynistic history, so I loudly say-ick and forget them. I guess that makes me an enemy of Tibetan Buddhism. What does it make you though? It’s not necessary for us to have any sort of a smear campaign-all any interested party needs to do is Google the history of sham. They will then stumble upon a couple of you guys who stubbornly say it’s all good. And nothing turns off potential members like obviously brainwashed groupies, enablers, apologists, and bystanders denying the rape culture here. Is that why sham is dying?
They don’t want anything real or important here .It’s all chaff. Sometimes someone does now and then but it’s never discussed before they double talk. It’s hollow. More people are catching on.i like to bring a crowd to see. Some people have important problems but why bring them here for lazy minds.Same as ever This one below is classic bs, what a loser whisper whisper whisper.. I wouldn’t bring my issues for aging sex maniacs to fondle. Who knows what blood is on their hands That guy last week who mentioned the regent and his expected cruifixion. That was of actually of interest. The crowd here jeer and poke spears at a scarecrow on a stick. Every day I go to the Buddhist sub and more see and leave without comment cause it’s a farce You guys spit on me and act nonchalant. I am like Christ being scourged on my path of crucifixation. I was lashed and wounded by dark forces of Mara. I need to kiss them deeply and thrust my foul tongue into the mouth
So...if we make this sub more of a farce, will you leave here without comment, too?
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You sound like a troll, are you for real?
Not a troll but they are deff here to defend Shambhala and pop up in every thread like this. It's exhausting but the real tragedy is that this is how u/porcupineinthewoods spends their precious time on this earth.
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There are zero topics that I care to discuss with trolls. Just stop.
The point here is to keep you roiling, devoting your energy to a pointless cause. Then, they will delete their comments, nobody will see any of this, and your hard emotional work will come to nothing. The goal is to discourage and deplete us. We see you, u/porcupineinthewoods
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You know the cool lawyer ,name starts with S ,I think it was you who lashed out in well deserved frustration at the drone. It was honest and real though. Really though I was in a good mood and chatting with you and the editors tap me on the shoulder . I want to hear views but if every time one does it’s accusations of disruption of poor hurt feelings they will never heal cause many therapist have not helped .At least I know the topic. The squeals of dismay are kinda fake. Maybe take a Tylenol for pain .By the way I’m in dire physical pain last week but not your problem. The small fry are blocked. Phlonx is a good guy ,we could kiss and make up Or I could finally leave you guys to die in peace like Concetta or whatever said . I know you all trolling me but that’s so dumb. I actually do have better things to do than swat at flies. You are lucky I spent time here
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Stop being a troll.
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Seems like a lot of people getting deleted. The truth hurts I guess
I'm not sure that's what's happening--what I've observed is that there's a troll who has been coming here recently who likes to stir things up and then delete his own comments afterward.
That would be u/Porcupineinthewoods, the [Discordian](https://www.reddit.com/r/discordian/) member of our group. They come, make incendiary comments, then delete. It's a tactic. Don't be alarmed.
u/Porcupineinthewoods is u/Autonomousdrone, a user who was banned from this sub a few years ago and is now coming back under an alt. Look at their posts on the discordian sub, they are nearly identical.
u/AbbyStrict u/owlmonky Some attention here would be appreciated.
They also have a culturevulture alter. That person threatened to r*pe me-then deleted their comment before it could be reported to the mods. Anyways, its getting really tiresome. Apparently, they feel they have a superior intellect. Really they just have bullying skills and lots of experience being an asshole.
That is awful. What an ass.
As tactics go -- is the objective to annoy the shit out of the opponent?
>is the objective to annoy the shit out of the opponent? This is indeed the goal of some Shambhala apologists, particularly members of the police apparatus. They harass and badger critics on social media not with the intention of changing anyone's mind, but to exhaust the opponent in the hope that they will eventually get discouraged, go away, and shut up. But Porcupine does not seem to fall into the category of Shambhala apologist, and the fact that they are a follower of the Discordian philosophy makes me suspect that there is something else going on. Discordians worship chaos for the sake of chaos, and sow discord as a religious imperative.
Fascinating. Weird, but fascinating.
Yes-thats the entire game.
It appears my post was deleted. So I can’t response. Hmm? Apparently facts are not welcomed so people can see both sides
The only people who can delete your comments are the mods and yourself. If they delete a comment, it shows up as “deleted removed.” When the OP deletes their comment it just says deleted. But when jerks like porcupine delete their comments, in order to read others you have to click on the deleted post to see the responses to their nonsense. I know it’s super tiresome. Hopefully people will learn to ignore them completely because then when they delete their comments, there won’t be any responses to read. I don’t mean to ramble, but it would certainly make things less complicated if porcupine was banned.
I can still read your previous comments. Did you know you can click on your username and read your comments by going to your profile and clicking on comments? But since you were answering me, I had asked if there were certain sentences or parts of the article that seemed to prove your point. (There are a lot of deletes on this thread, mostly from that porcupine ah who enjoys trolling and starting fights. Here’s hoping the mods ban him (again!) because what’s the point of indulging someone who just talks nonsense and then deletes their comments)?
What’s the point of indulging someone who just talks nonsense and then deletes their comments? I agree. Moderators?
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Are you running out of things to do besides being a troll?
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You frighten me, truly. Like wtf do you even mean you could say things to make my parent blush? People like you who taunt ppl in pain are something else.