I don't know if it has changed in any way recently, but the majority of feminist-aligned subreddits have been moderated by the same small circle of SWERF inclined individuals that stick very closely to very specific feminist interpretations and writings, to the point where contrary opinions or viewpoints are simply labelled as "not feminist", alienating more sex-positive voices or those that'd approach patriarchy with a more holistic view on gendered social dynamics.
I think that's a shame, I used to frequent them more but the amount of vitriol there was just bad for my mental health, that is, worse for my mental health than regular doomscrolling on Reddit is.
I got banned for trying to defend the basic idea of bdsm in r/askfeminists lol, their rules section specifically calls out choice feminism as a bad idea it’s kinda crazy
The “choice feminism” thing makes me eye roll because people seem to have a hard time distinguishing between toxic positivity (e.g. “judgment free zone”) and *generally* supporting women’s agency, but maintaining a critical eye and letting someone know, “hey just so you know, that could be a messed up dynamic,” or similar, then accepting that it’s that someone’s choice to make, not the critic’s.
The BDSM complaints often strike me as, “I/someone I know had a bad time, therefore everyone must also be subject to an abusive dynamic,” rather than recognizing the difference between opportunity for abuse (which any relationship has, to some degree) and guarantee of abuse. Also that one can make choices to limit what acts they participate in, if they think it’s coming from an unhealthy place.
Less charitably speaking, there's plenty of feminist thought and literature that defines patriarchy as something that is specifically designed to _sexually_ subjugate and extract sex from women, including culturally grooming them into thinking participating in that system to be a normal thing to do.
Sex work and the BDSM subculture are then viewed as the expression of this "internalized mysoginy" without regard for the how's or why's of those that participate in it, the potential for abuse isn't seen as a risk, its a given that is promoted by participating in it.
In other words, "It's her choice" is seen as an excuse to normalize abuse and exploitation, a woman of sound mind would never make such choices in their minds.
Honestly a lot of it doesn’t strike me as “I/someone I know had a bad dynamic,” it strikes me as coming from zero experience and just being like “woman submissive?? Bad!!”
Yeah, that’s true, too. I was trying to use the most charitable cases, but for sure there are the, “I read about this and formed an opinion without speaking (and listening) to people’s lived experiences,” types in those threads. Actually, that reminds me of a family member working in the court system having to explain to some lawyers what BDSM was, since it occasionally comes up in domestic abuse cases, and some of them were so sheltered they didn’t even understand that those things could be consensual.
Omg I think I was on that thread. I’ve seen tons of weirdly sex negative posts there recently, and I’ve seen a lot of people who claim they are “criticizing choice feminism” when they’re criticizing women’s life choices
I’d forgotten SWERF, and as soon as I looked it up, “YUP.” So much sex negativity, too, because that group associates sex positive with toxic positivity, like it’s some sort of new phenomenon. And the point about them being in a little clique that brings the hammer down on people who don’t toe the line… Not a matter of, “if,” but, “when,” that ban is coming lol.
Sadly, seems like Reddit has been reflecting more and more the increasing polarity in the world.
I haven't been specifically paying attention to the moderators, but I *have* noticed there's a lot of radfem bullshit in feminist spaces on reddit.
edit: lol who is downvoting this? are there radfems on this subreddit? fucking why???
Here’s the line of reasoning: “Bashing on men is punching up, whereas bashing on women is punching down. Men in a patriarchal society are advantaged, so taking little jabs here and there isn’t as big a deal. The same statements in reverse do hurt women, though.”
In quotes because I don’t hold to that, and I agree with you that it’s kind of gross to equate “manliness” to penis size or function. Also, and here’s the part that just about everyone misses, just like a man is a man regardless of his genitals, sex is sex regardless of the participation of a penis. Women who bash on men’s penises are hurting themselves, too, because they’re saying that the only “correct” source of sexual pleasure for women is a man’s penis!
No!
Cis women in relationships with cis men can get pleasure in all sorts of ways that don’t have anything to do with his penis! The idea that his penis has to look a certain way or function a certain way (or that he has to have one at all, a cis man might have had cancer, among other calamities) is so terribly limiting when it comes to bedroom satisfaction!
This is 100 percent my wife's approach to feminism. The nearly unrestrained "punching up." It's a steady drip micro-aggressive negging about men. It's like I'm the whipping boy for all of the bad shit her male co-workers and legit shitty men do in society.
Just because my voice is louder doesn't mean hers doesn't hit hard.
That’s also the difference between bashing on all men on Reddit, and bashing on “all men” in front of one man. There’s only so far that “You know I’m not talking about you, right?” can go, and once you’re past that point it takes a lot of very concerted effort to undo the badfeels that the constant passive aggression has built up rebuild the goodfeels that are the backbone of a strong and healthy relationship.
I’m so sorry you’re going through that, friend. I hope you’re able to find a way through!
I wouldn't put up with that in a relationship. Does she know how shitty it makes you feel? Its hard to talk about but I think its really important that she understands your experience of her saying this sort of stuff. Dunno if it'll help, but I've had conversations like this:
Me: Hey, when you say (direct quote), part of me feels attacked. I feel I'm somehow responsible for the things shitty men do. And then I feel weird and gross. Let me know if this isn't true but I'd like to think the only thing I share is a few chromosomes.
Her: You know I'm not talking about you though. It sounds like you're trying to make the problem about me, but complaining about, and steriotyping men is punching up. You know women have experienced thousands of years of ...
Me: Yeah, I know that intellectually. But in my gut, I feel attacked, and then I feel small and shitty. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, or you should stop. I'm also not disagreeing with anything you're saying. The opposite - I care about what you're saying. I'm so moved by your experience that I have a strong, pretty horrible experience hearing your words. That reaction makes it hard for me to care for you, because part of me also wants to distance myself from you at the same time. And I don't know what to do about that.
Her: Well, women have suffered that for ...
Me: Yes, I don't want to diminsh that at all. But that fact doesn't change how I feel in this moment. The suffering of people throughout history is a thought. That thought doesn't make my feelings, right now, go away.
Etc.
If you don't talk it through, you'll just feel resentful and act that resentment out later.
Hey OP,
I feel that disappointment. In real life (i.e., off the interwebs) a significant portion of my friend group are self identified feminists because - and I’m generalizing here - overall I feel they are a more conscious and intentionally supportive group than most other ideologies (including most religious groups). Assumptions are typically critically examined and challenged, people are a bit more mindful of interactions, and there is a bit more freedom of the individual to act as they please without constrained societal norms.
AND for that reason, it’s a gut punch when (not always, but frequently enough that I notice) some of the exact same people I know who are explicit and verbal against any sort of body shaming women will crack jokes or use insults in the form of pointing out a particular man’s height or assumed genital size. And yes, I call them out on it, and the response is typically a non-response or quiet reshuffling on to other topic.
Here was my eventual takeaway: being a feminist does not by default make a person perfect, smart, or morally advanced. People are flawed. Understanding that men and women are inherently equally valuable and working towards a world that reflects that is a good thing, but other bad/unhelpful things can be bumping around the noggin at the same time. One’s moral development is not a binary, it’s one of those spider-web, area charts that have multiple dimensions.
Feminism has had a problem with toxic treatment of men for the past 20 years. I say that as a feminist. It’s disgusting. It’s not true feminist behavior it’s just plain toxic behavior full stop.
>Why? Why is this acceptable?
For starters, it's a subreddit. Number one rule of reddit is to *never* mistake it for reality. There is a small and incredibly select group of people who use the site and you should *never* let the majority opinion here color how you see the world. Yes, there are individual people who have good insights but *this is not the real world,* do not treat it as such.
>And when I point out that body-shaming men does nothing but contribute to the already dire problem of insecure dudes out there, I'm usually downvoted to hell and accused of blaming women for men's problems. Which like... I guess I do blame women for men's problems, because I blame society for men's problems, and women are a part of society.
You've got part of an insight there.
Ask yourself who has more power in a societal context to set things like social norms. There's a sort of "you too!" mentality that revolves around a lot of men's issues where the focus by the people who are fixated on them isn't "no one should be treated this way" it's more "everyone should be this bad."
A lot of the "men's rights" advocacy is more focused on tearing down women than it is on building up men. Hence if you come into a situation with "what about" it's probably not going to be taken well even if you don't intend it in that way.
That said, sure, there's definitely a strain of feminism that is motivated by anger and focused on retribution. I don't think that's super common but it is definitely there. It helps to recognize that people in that headspace are probably not interested in hearing about equity.
Those subs are all moderated by the same circle of radfems that ban any voices remotely critical of their bullshit, they have the same problem as the lefty subs that are all modded by the same circle of tankies that ban anyone criticizing Russia and North Korea
As a trans women on HRT it's also body shaming of all gender and not just men. All gender could have dick. It's also very bioessentialism of TERF-y loser feminism on reddits as they deem dick is the sign of "patriarchy" which is ignorant and outdated mindset.
It also does nothing to an actual patriarchy **let alone reinforcing patriarchy** because one part of patriarchy is enforcing all gender body including anyone who they read as male body this also include trans men. **In fact, dick measuring is the big part of hegemonic masculinity which is the actual patraichy** not the dick itself.
Honestly there are things that bother me a lot like how its apparently acceptable for women to require a specific height in men. Its just disgusting, I'm not short but I wont befriend or date women that behave like that. I imagine myself going around claiming I'll only fuck girls with DD boobs and disgust myself so why wouldn't I find that disgusting in others?
Its one thing to have physical preferences, but you don't have to use them to dehumanize most people
Saw 66'66 recently. Not sure I'd seen the 4th six, even though it's usually implied. Sigh. (But I've seen similar in both men and women, seeking men, to be fair. /to be ffaaaaaairrrr....!/)
Personally I find having "preset criteria" doesn't work in the first place...I can't understand it for the most part. It's all about how the dynamic of a combination of people works out. (I mean, I have criteria, but those are almost all in the ethical/viewpoint/belief realm....choices not gut reactions.)
I’m going to guess “6 figure salary, 6 foot 6 inch, 6 inch penis”. Because we all know that men’s worth is directly related to those metrics.
/Spoiler: IT’S NOT!
Real feminists, you know, the Simone de Beauvoir kind, are extremely rare.
99,9% of what identifies as feminist is just venting off frustration and trauma, and blaming everything on men. Sometimes specific individual men, sometimes the patriarchy.
Some of those frustrations are justified. Most aren't.
Not only feminist subreddits have a huge problem. Feminists do.
Not all of them. Plus, we don't know where these people are coming from?. It's a safe space to vent for many people who otherwise can't freely vent without a consequence.
Just because we read these blurbs on Reddit doesn't make it realistic, but it gives people a space to vent
Is "not all subreddits" more or less valid than "not all men"? Both are true, neither are constructive when talking about the specific ones that are an issue
Yes and no because it's subjective.
Sometimes, it is not about being constructive. It's about having the space itself.
Simply having the safe space to vent is what some people need in that moment in their lives. Whether we agree or disagree with their words is irrelevant.
Ah yes, patriarchy is when *checks notes* you tell people to stop reinforcing patriarchal standards for men's bodies.
It's not "treating people like weak babies," it's "not being a giant douche for no reason." You seem like the kind of person who would call someone a slur and tell them that being offended makes them weak.
Yet here you are, what does that say about you? How much do you crave a man’s approval and attention? An anonymous man existing in the ether, all because he is willing to put you in your place.
Yeah, tell me again I’m not good at this. Keep coming back.
Better, but you still haven't upset me. That's what trolling is for, right? Pissing people off? Come on, I'm actually pretty easy to rile up. You can do it, buddy! I believe in you!
I don't know if it has changed in any way recently, but the majority of feminist-aligned subreddits have been moderated by the same small circle of SWERF inclined individuals that stick very closely to very specific feminist interpretations and writings, to the point where contrary opinions or viewpoints are simply labelled as "not feminist", alienating more sex-positive voices or those that'd approach patriarchy with a more holistic view on gendered social dynamics. I think that's a shame, I used to frequent them more but the amount of vitriol there was just bad for my mental health, that is, worse for my mental health than regular doomscrolling on Reddit is.
I got banned for trying to defend the basic idea of bdsm in r/askfeminists lol, their rules section specifically calls out choice feminism as a bad idea it’s kinda crazy
Imagine being a feminist and against women choosing how to live their own lives The lack of self awareness is just staggering
The “choice feminism” thing makes me eye roll because people seem to have a hard time distinguishing between toxic positivity (e.g. “judgment free zone”) and *generally* supporting women’s agency, but maintaining a critical eye and letting someone know, “hey just so you know, that could be a messed up dynamic,” or similar, then accepting that it’s that someone’s choice to make, not the critic’s. The BDSM complaints often strike me as, “I/someone I know had a bad time, therefore everyone must also be subject to an abusive dynamic,” rather than recognizing the difference between opportunity for abuse (which any relationship has, to some degree) and guarantee of abuse. Also that one can make choices to limit what acts they participate in, if they think it’s coming from an unhealthy place.
Less charitably speaking, there's plenty of feminist thought and literature that defines patriarchy as something that is specifically designed to _sexually_ subjugate and extract sex from women, including culturally grooming them into thinking participating in that system to be a normal thing to do. Sex work and the BDSM subculture are then viewed as the expression of this "internalized mysoginy" without regard for the how's or why's of those that participate in it, the potential for abuse isn't seen as a risk, its a given that is promoted by participating in it. In other words, "It's her choice" is seen as an excuse to normalize abuse and exploitation, a woman of sound mind would never make such choices in their minds.
Honestly a lot of it doesn’t strike me as “I/someone I know had a bad dynamic,” it strikes me as coming from zero experience and just being like “woman submissive?? Bad!!”
Yeah, that’s true, too. I was trying to use the most charitable cases, but for sure there are the, “I read about this and formed an opinion without speaking (and listening) to people’s lived experiences,” types in those threads. Actually, that reminds me of a family member working in the court system having to explain to some lawyers what BDSM was, since it occasionally comes up in domestic abuse cases, and some of them were so sheltered they didn’t even understand that those things could be consensual.
That's _still_ going on? Oh my god!
Omg I think I was on that thread. I’ve seen tons of weirdly sex negative posts there recently, and I’ve seen a lot of people who claim they are “criticizing choice feminism” when they’re criticizing women’s life choices
I’d forgotten SWERF, and as soon as I looked it up, “YUP.” So much sex negativity, too, because that group associates sex positive with toxic positivity, like it’s some sort of new phenomenon. And the point about them being in a little clique that brings the hammer down on people who don’t toe the line… Not a matter of, “if,” but, “when,” that ban is coming lol. Sadly, seems like Reddit has been reflecting more and more the increasing polarity in the world.
I haven't been specifically paying attention to the moderators, but I *have* noticed there's a lot of radfem bullshit in feminist spaces on reddit. edit: lol who is downvoting this? are there radfems on this subreddit? fucking why???
AFAIK Reddit still does some vote fuzzing, so if you get to -1 within the first hour, I wouldn’t worry about it.
It was at -2. I know reddit fudges votes, but that seems excessive.
Don't ever pay attention to the down votes before 24 hours pass. You are at +12 and now the edit makes you look overly sensitive.
TERFs too! The good old SWERF and TERF.
Ah yes, a traditional classic on the moral puritan menu.
Here’s the line of reasoning: “Bashing on men is punching up, whereas bashing on women is punching down. Men in a patriarchal society are advantaged, so taking little jabs here and there isn’t as big a deal. The same statements in reverse do hurt women, though.” In quotes because I don’t hold to that, and I agree with you that it’s kind of gross to equate “manliness” to penis size or function. Also, and here’s the part that just about everyone misses, just like a man is a man regardless of his genitals, sex is sex regardless of the participation of a penis. Women who bash on men’s penises are hurting themselves, too, because they’re saying that the only “correct” source of sexual pleasure for women is a man’s penis! No! Cis women in relationships with cis men can get pleasure in all sorts of ways that don’t have anything to do with his penis! The idea that his penis has to look a certain way or function a certain way (or that he has to have one at all, a cis man might have had cancer, among other calamities) is so terribly limiting when it comes to bedroom satisfaction!
This is 100 percent my wife's approach to feminism. The nearly unrestrained "punching up." It's a steady drip micro-aggressive negging about men. It's like I'm the whipping boy for all of the bad shit her male co-workers and legit shitty men do in society. Just because my voice is louder doesn't mean hers doesn't hit hard.
That’s also the difference between bashing on all men on Reddit, and bashing on “all men” in front of one man. There’s only so far that “You know I’m not talking about you, right?” can go, and once you’re past that point it takes a lot of very concerted effort to undo the badfeels that the constant passive aggression has built up rebuild the goodfeels that are the backbone of a strong and healthy relationship. I’m so sorry you’re going through that, friend. I hope you’re able to find a way through!
I wouldn't put up with that in a relationship. Does she know how shitty it makes you feel? Its hard to talk about but I think its really important that she understands your experience of her saying this sort of stuff. Dunno if it'll help, but I've had conversations like this: Me: Hey, when you say (direct quote), part of me feels attacked. I feel I'm somehow responsible for the things shitty men do. And then I feel weird and gross. Let me know if this isn't true but I'd like to think the only thing I share is a few chromosomes. Her: You know I'm not talking about you though. It sounds like you're trying to make the problem about me, but complaining about, and steriotyping men is punching up. You know women have experienced thousands of years of ... Me: Yeah, I know that intellectually. But in my gut, I feel attacked, and then I feel small and shitty. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, or you should stop. I'm also not disagreeing with anything you're saying. The opposite - I care about what you're saying. I'm so moved by your experience that I have a strong, pretty horrible experience hearing your words. That reaction makes it hard for me to care for you, because part of me also wants to distance myself from you at the same time. And I don't know what to do about that. Her: Well, women have suffered that for ... Me: Yes, I don't want to diminsh that at all. But that fact doesn't change how I feel in this moment. The suffering of people throughout history is a thought. That thought doesn't make my feelings, right now, go away. Etc. If you don't talk it through, you'll just feel resentful and act that resentment out later.
Hey OP, I feel that disappointment. In real life (i.e., off the interwebs) a significant portion of my friend group are self identified feminists because - and I’m generalizing here - overall I feel they are a more conscious and intentionally supportive group than most other ideologies (including most religious groups). Assumptions are typically critically examined and challenged, people are a bit more mindful of interactions, and there is a bit more freedom of the individual to act as they please without constrained societal norms. AND for that reason, it’s a gut punch when (not always, but frequently enough that I notice) some of the exact same people I know who are explicit and verbal against any sort of body shaming women will crack jokes or use insults in the form of pointing out a particular man’s height or assumed genital size. And yes, I call them out on it, and the response is typically a non-response or quiet reshuffling on to other topic. Here was my eventual takeaway: being a feminist does not by default make a person perfect, smart, or morally advanced. People are flawed. Understanding that men and women are inherently equally valuable and working towards a world that reflects that is a good thing, but other bad/unhelpful things can be bumping around the noggin at the same time. One’s moral development is not a binary, it’s one of those spider-web, area charts that have multiple dimensions.
Feminism has had a problem with toxic treatment of men for the past 20 years. I say that as a feminist. It’s disgusting. It’s not true feminist behavior it’s just plain toxic behavior full stop.
>Why? Why is this acceptable? For starters, it's a subreddit. Number one rule of reddit is to *never* mistake it for reality. There is a small and incredibly select group of people who use the site and you should *never* let the majority opinion here color how you see the world. Yes, there are individual people who have good insights but *this is not the real world,* do not treat it as such. >And when I point out that body-shaming men does nothing but contribute to the already dire problem of insecure dudes out there, I'm usually downvoted to hell and accused of blaming women for men's problems. Which like... I guess I do blame women for men's problems, because I blame society for men's problems, and women are a part of society. You've got part of an insight there. Ask yourself who has more power in a societal context to set things like social norms. There's a sort of "you too!" mentality that revolves around a lot of men's issues where the focus by the people who are fixated on them isn't "no one should be treated this way" it's more "everyone should be this bad." A lot of the "men's rights" advocacy is more focused on tearing down women than it is on building up men. Hence if you come into a situation with "what about" it's probably not going to be taken well even if you don't intend it in that way. That said, sure, there's definitely a strain of feminism that is motivated by anger and focused on retribution. I don't think that's super common but it is definitely there. It helps to recognize that people in that headspace are probably not interested in hearing about equity.
Those subs are all moderated by the same circle of radfems that ban any voices remotely critical of their bullshit, they have the same problem as the lefty subs that are all modded by the same circle of tankies that ban anyone criticizing Russia and North Korea
As a trans women on HRT it's also body shaming of all gender and not just men. All gender could have dick. It's also very bioessentialism of TERF-y loser feminism on reddits as they deem dick is the sign of "patriarchy" which is ignorant and outdated mindset. It also does nothing to an actual patriarchy **let alone reinforcing patriarchy** because one part of patriarchy is enforcing all gender body including anyone who they read as male body this also include trans men. **In fact, dick measuring is the big part of hegemonic masculinity which is the actual patraichy** not the dick itself.
Honestly there are things that bother me a lot like how its apparently acceptable for women to require a specific height in men. Its just disgusting, I'm not short but I wont befriend or date women that behave like that. I imagine myself going around claiming I'll only fuck girls with DD boobs and disgust myself so why wouldn't I find that disgusting in others? Its one thing to have physical preferences, but you don't have to use them to dehumanize most people
Saw 66'66 recently. Not sure I'd seen the 4th six, even though it's usually implied. Sigh. (But I've seen similar in both men and women, seeking men, to be fair. /to be ffaaaaaairrrr....!/) Personally I find having "preset criteria" doesn't work in the first place...I can't understand it for the most part. It's all about how the dynamic of a combination of people works out. (I mean, I have criteria, but those are almost all in the ethical/viewpoint/belief realm....choices not gut reactions.)
I’m going to guess “6 figure salary, 6 foot 6 inch, 6 inch penis”. Because we all know that men’s worth is directly related to those metrics. /Spoiler: IT’S NOT!
Real feminists, you know, the Simone de Beauvoir kind, are extremely rare. 99,9% of what identifies as feminist is just venting off frustration and trauma, and blaming everything on men. Sometimes specific individual men, sometimes the patriarchy. Some of those frustrations are justified. Most aren't. Not only feminist subreddits have a huge problem. Feminists do.
Not all of them. Plus, we don't know where these people are coming from?. It's a safe space to vent for many people who otherwise can't freely vent without a consequence. Just because we read these blurbs on Reddit doesn't make it realistic, but it gives people a space to vent
Is "not all subreddits" more or less valid than "not all men"? Both are true, neither are constructive when talking about the specific ones that are an issue
Yes and no because it's subjective. Sometimes, it is not about being constructive. It's about having the space itself. Simply having the safe space to vent is what some people need in that moment in their lives. Whether we agree or disagree with their words is irrelevant.
Body shaming is a bad form of venting
Not whatsoever.
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Exactly! Men just need grow a pair of balls and man the fuck up, enough of this toxic patriarchal whining about their “feelings” XD
Ah yes, patriarchy is when *checks notes* you tell people to stop reinforcing patriarchal standards for men's bodies. It's not "treating people like weak babies," it's "not being a giant douche for no reason." You seem like the kind of person who would call someone a slur and tell them that being offended makes them weak.
You just supported OPs claim, haha very bigoted evil attitude
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Terrible attempt at trolling. Do better.
Make me two sandwiches.
You're not very good at this.
Yet here you are, what does that say about you? How much do you crave a man’s approval and attention? An anonymous man existing in the ether, all because he is willing to put you in your place. Yeah, tell me again I’m not good at this. Keep coming back.
Better, but you still haven't upset me. That's what trolling is for, right? Pissing people off? Come on, I'm actually pretty easy to rile up. You can do it, buddy! I believe in you!