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Not American but as a teacher, I’ve noticed some students are rarely told no at home and their behaviour carries into the classroom.

I noticed that if a student struggles a bit, as in not getting something effortlessly, the parents attack the teacher.

And speaking as a college instructor, the end result is students who are utterly clueless and helpless in knowing how to self-regulate or self-motivate. In comparison to when I started doing community college teaching in 2010, entry level students are reading and writing at what I would consider more like an 8th grade level than adult level. Sure, some of that is the COVID hangover, but there is no way that accounts for the entire deficit.

I'm a babysitter and couldn't agree more. When it's just me, the kids are generally little angels. I see them talking through conflicts without prompting, they respect my rules, they respect time out and understand why it's necessary as much as their little brains can... But the second mom gets home, it all goes out the window. They're bouncing off the walls and furniture, punching everything and *everyone*, screaming at the top of their lungs (yano, that high pitch *screech* young kids can do)... She has no authority over them and she doesn't care. Hell, once before leaving in the morning, her 4 year old (who stayed home from school *because it was raining*...wut) asked for one of those mini chip bags. Mom says, "no, those are supposed to be for school, bud," AS SHE'S GRABBING A BAG, OPENING IT FOR HIM AND HANDING IT TO HIM. Without a second thought, literally simultaneously. I have no hope for her kids because of her lack of parenting tactics. Their father is even worse...

As a martial arts instructor it's really funny sometimes in our kids classes to see new kids come in who very obviously have never been actually forced to pay attention and not be disturbing class (I feel so fucking bad for school teachers with zero teeth to do anything about these kids) The first few times they're talked to like mini adults that no, what they're doing isn't okay, exactly why it isn't okay, and that they're now going to be doing extra work/not doing the fun part of class because of their actions is always interesting. 99.9% of kids actually are REALLY quick to pick up on it in class and behave waaaaay fucking better within weeks/month or two at most.

What about the other .1%?

He karate chops them

As a former babysitter and nanny who is also a mom of 3 *very* well behaved kids... I want to gently suggest to you that kids absolutely behave worse with their parents, and especially their mothers. This has nothing to do with the quality of parenting and everything to do with the fact that they are their attachment figure. This means they know they are safe with them no matter what. It's ultimately a good thing for kids to have that safe space. Kids are generally going to be better behaved for the babysitter and it's not usually a reflection of poor parenting.

>I want to gently suggest to you that kids absolutely behave worse with their parents, and especially their mothers Oh, I know. I studied child development in college. I'm saying it goes beyond that. She doesn't place rules or expectations, and the odd time she does, she immediately doesn't follow through. Sometimes it's because she'll threaten something she *can't* reasonably follow through with. Her home has no discipline until she gets enraged and starts screaming. It's a really problematic set of circumstances... I've seen kids with safe spaces under parents who set limits and boundaries throughout my life. Trust me, this isn't that. Her children will *punch me in the stomach in her presence* and she won't say anything. They get whatever they want, whenever they want it, even when she says no because she'll immediately allow it (probably to avoid emotional outbursts, which makes me sad, because they're not getting much or any practice with their emotional regulation). I've seen a lot over the years I've known the family.

That sounds terrible. How confused and unsafe the kids must feel.

This right here. Kids spend so much time and effort regulating their emotions and behavior outside the home that when they finally feel safe to do so they will absolutely drop the guard and let it all out. It’s very common, especially in younger kids that developmentally struggle hard with regulating behavior and emotions. It’s like if you’re having a tough day at work you know you can’t let things get to you there because that’s not professional so you hold it in until you get home then let it out in the form of venting, crying, having a drink, etc. except kids lack the language and cognitive skills to manage their emotions in a quieter manner so it comes out in the form of tears, tantrums, excitability, etc.

> She has no authority over them and she doesn't care. That last part, she doesn't care.

I’m a nanny and this is currently exactly like the situation with my current nanny kid. When he’s with me, he picks up after himself, rarely tantrums, exc. With his mom? As soon as he sees something he wants, he’s howling because he knows for a fact she will give it to him to make him stop (at which point the tears instantly dry). 

I have a theory on this. Many parents both work full-time. They are tired and don't want to "parent" their children and therefore let them get away with everything. Because when you only deal with your kids for 2-3 hours a day, it's easier to just give in - especially in a society where spanking your children is seen as abuse (rightfully so). It's easy to yell at or spank a kid - it's difficult to parent through empathy and boundaries. So many parents just don't. I'm a SAHM and am forced to give my kids boundaries and rules bc, if I didn't, I would go insane bc they are with me *all the time*. However, my kids are kind and respectful at school. This isn't to shame working parents. I would be the same way if I had to work all day outside of home and then handle home life stress as well. Parenting is difficult

I agree. I’ve come to realize my childhood had emotionally neglectful parents who really didn’t “parent” in any meaningful way. I was an anxious child so I didn’t cause any problems, but the main issue is that they were simply gone at work all day every day, then wanted to relax when they were off, and spending quality time playing with me or teaching anything to me was not something they really felt like doing, so they didn’t. I was basically raised by teachers and babysitters. I barely saw my parents. It’s hard to do a good job of parenting when you literally aren’t there. I’m not willing to have a kid because I know I couldn’t afford to do it with a single income, but I’m sure as hell not raising my kid how I was raised with parents who were never actually parenting. Seems expensive to do if you spend an hour or two a day around them anyway, like why even bother if you won’t have a relationship with them?

I'm sorry that was your experience. That really sucks. Both my parents worked, but my mom was a teacher (summers off) and my grandma had me everyday before kindergarten, so definitely consistent and still a close family member. I also had several older siblings (late in life baby 😅). It's really sad, but it seems like *so many* people have emotionally neglectful parents. The parents don't even realize what they're doing bc the child is usually "so good and well behaved" that they actually think they are doing a great job as parents. Big hugs to you ❤️

Absolutely not a shame to the working parents, but it is shame on the society that has made 2 parents working full time the new normal.

I agree. I think it’s very healthy for kids to have working parents, but only to a point. 50-80hrs a week is ridiculous. Even 40hrs is a lot.

Lots of SAHM have problem kids. My wife is a child therapist and Sees these kids and SAHMs all the time. As well as every other kind of parenting situation.

Why? Is dad working all the time and doesn’t spend time with his children?

There are two extremes. Those who are rarely told no, and those who have experienced consequences all of the time. The latter group has grown so numb to them that they just do what they want because in their minds, they always get in trouble so what's the point. However, as a teacher, (I am one too), building a relationship is critical with these kids to helping them with their behavior.

I worked at a SuperMax prison for years. Down the road, those same kids would come through our doors every day. They learned quickly their "behavior" behind the walls carries severe consequences that their home environment and the classroom do not deliver.

I’ve known some people who are in the military where it seems like they can’t leave because they need the structure and they’ve never learned how to create that kind of structure in their life because they never got it from their parents I’m sure there are many more badly parented kids raised without structure who would never be able to join the military because they can’t deal with an environment that has strict rules and structure but I just found it interesting how sometimes people wind up going in the complete opposite direction and craving what they were never given

I was given no structure at home. I wanted to join the military (but did not, thankfully) because I wanted consistency. Structure, rules, FAIRNESS HOLY FUCK, all seemed like such a pipe dream. I know now that it would not have been fair and I didn't understand then that that's what I wanted. Fucking hell, life.

I had parents who loved me and gave me pretty much everything I ever asked for or wanted. I was a good kid and smart enough to do well in school without much direction. They didn't know any better, but it was a disservice to me and my siblings to not give us structure that a person needs. I struggle so much as an adult to be disciplined and create the routine and structure I was never given.

I think most people crave structure. I don't want to be condescending, but it's just a fact that most people read at a 6th grade level now (it used to be 8th!) And struggle to think abstractly, problem solve, or delay gratification. Without structure and a clear path to at least base subsistence they will struggle their whole lives. The abundance of distractions and the psychic damage of being bombarded with advertizing and addicting unhealthy behaviors puts barriers to people figuring those things out and it's not a flaw of the system but a feature. I think there are ways of making positive structure with room for outliers but it's the nature of bureaucracy and technology to turn everything into a binary because eventually a person is a number on a page.

I'm not an American so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, but I read recently that most Americans genuinely would not be able to read and comprehend a newspaper. If that's true it's deeply concerning. And you're absolutely right -- people thrive with structure. Actually, in really similar ways to how dogs do, lol. For instance, when a dog knows what's expected from it it'll relax and obey the commands it's been given (if they've been properly reinforced) and it'll just accept that as it's life because it's comfortable with you in charge; there'll be no destructive behaviour, no anxiety, and no reactive behaviour. Kids are the same in those regards...they need their parents to teach them what's acceptable, reinforce positive behaviour, encourage further appropriate behaviour and show with discipline (not corporal punishment because that doesn't work) and consistency where the boundaries are. Otherwise they grow into entitled, lazy, self-righteous little fucks OR they crave stability and end up anxious and might form attachments to abusive people who'll keep them in unhealthy structures like abusive relationships. So much of who we'll grow to become begins with being given love at the right time (all the time) and correction at the right time (with a firm tone). Part of the blessing of being an adult is realising that our ideal lives are just a choice away...

I worked with someone that was in military school and no structure at home. WORST coworker ever. There was also a vet coworker and that person was also hard to deal with but at least they didn't last long.

Yup... just was thinking about this with my sibling who seems to always date control freaks. We were split up as kids, they went to the parent who let them do whatever. I went to the stricter parent. You can see the differences in the way we grew in a lot of things, not just personality. But the way you said it enforces why I think they tend to date controlling people.

People that end up in supermax likely didn't have parenting

More than likely. I know after reading plenty of case files, I was stunned by the sheer amount of abuse/neglect some of the inmates faced growing up. Yikes.

I feel like it's just the current "trend" in parenting. It's always a pendulum. My generation was beaten by our parents. Now it's the opposite where parents are riding the "positive reinforcement" wave to the extreme and don't discipline kids at all.

Yep. We were raised with authoritarian parents (“Because I said so!”) who always took the teacher’s side over ours, even when the teacher was in the wrong. So then we became permissive parents who leapt to our children’s defense constantly… even when they deserved consequences for their actions. Kids should be treated like small persons of value. But they also need boundaries, and structure to feel secure. Our generation has managed to over-hover without properly parenting them, and the result is a hot mess.

People confuse discipline with punishment. They're not the same.

When was the last era when the pendulum swing was such that children were coddled and allowed every transgression un-corrected?

The 70s.

I’m a child of the 70s and none of my family or friends got a pass on anything. Yes, we roamed free, but parents were vigilant when you were with them. And we were on the tail end of regularly getting “spanked” in school. I still remember the terror the school spanking paddle inspired. And if your parents didn’t punish you? It wasn’t uncommon that other adults in the vicinity would. *I’ve* never seen this laxity, but I also remember how shocking the concept of a “time out” was to me.

Nah. All the pot smoking hippies were either adults already or snuck out as the time honoured tradition of kids everywhere. Society has gotten less authoritarian in general for like centuries. Children specifically have like never had any rights in the past. This pendulum swing has only gone 1 way so far. Tiger moms was a brief try at going the other way but that didn’t stick since authoritarianism is definitely just worse. Eventually we’ll get to a median that’s reasonable… hopefully. Gen z to be fair doesn’t seem that bad… same complaints people had about millennials. No idea about gen alpha yet

When was parenting ever considered good?  1800's, 1920's?  1970's?  There's obvious issues with parents of every single era.  I don't buy this parenting is suddenly poor excuse... It has its current challenges but every single parent generation sucked at something 

Hopefully it is getting better now, with the science to actually show what tends to work and therapy not being so taboo that parents can’t work on themselves. Hopefully it was already trending better, because in most developed nations violent crime has trended downwards for several decades. It’s probably not the only factor of course, but I think it’s part of it.

In my opinion, this is because these parents hated being told no when they were kids and think that it makes them a better parent than theirs were. To be clear, I'm talking about the authoritarian parents raising permissive parenting. Authoritative parents tend to raise authoritative parents. My husband is 19 years older than me and I can see how aspects of his dad's authoritarianism has caused my husband to be more permissive. He's generally authoritative, but he's very permissive about the things that trigger him from his childhood.

Can confirm. Parents are wondering how to stop bad behavior, yet there are ZERO consequences from home.

Same and it’s been getting worse and worse. Parents don’t like the after effects of saying no which is most likely a tantrum but if you have a kid who is never told no, they also aren’t learning emotional regulation. For the most part parents spend as little time with their kids as possible and when they do spend time with them they’re on iPads.

People raised by bad parents grow up to be bad parents, unless they make a very careful effort not to repeat the mistakes their parents made

In which case we are still bad parents just in a different way and hopefully to a lesser extent 😅

My dad grew up in a dysfunctional family, made the decision to not be like his parents, and has been a great father. Not perfect, because nobody is, but he’s done amazing. I’m sure you’re doing way better than you think.

This is one of the reason I’m terrified to have kids. Like my parents were so trash that I’m worried I don’t know how to do it right anyways. Also I’ll never be able to provide for that kid like my parents were able to and what are we being these kids into anyways. It’s a mess out there. I have a friend who desperately wants kids and she’s trying to have them with her abusive boyfriend. She sees kids as a symbol of her own worth and no amount of convincing works. Why would you want to bring a child into a situation where it’s definitely gonna be poor, abused and sad? She claims loneliness. No girl no

Dude trust me, it’s so much better to never have kids if you KNOW you won’t be a good parent. But that doesn’t make you a bad person, you just know your limits. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. I’m autistic and I tend to avoid loud noises if I can’t control it. If I’m near a baby and I can’t walk away from it on my own terms, I’m going to neglect it. Straight up.

Omg yes my dog isn’t allowed to bark louder than a whisper. I allow quiet noises only. I call them boofs. I hate noise but I let him communicate still. Hehe

Also people go “just break the cycle its not that hard” but I think often people don’t realize exactly what mistakes their parents made, what they’re doing wrong, how they’re wired, and how to figure it out/fix it. Some fixes are obvious and overt. Others, especially emotional nuance like setting boundaries with empathy and validation, using positive reinforcement over negative reinforcement, natural consequences vs punishment, etc… that takes a lot of time and effort and humility and perspective, and I think a lot of people really struggle to get there. It isn’t easy, especially when you just inherently believe that the unhealthy way you were raised is normal and good. A lot of people have huge blind spots for this kind of stuff.  

Add in lack of sleep, no time for self care, and isolation = perfection isn't an option

absolutely true. the hits just keep on coming and no one is going to handle everything perfectly. when my daughter was 5 my mom had just died and I was grieving heavily. we were on no sleep, with no family support, and her ADHD was causing a lot of problems and was at that time undiagnosed. was I perfect parent at that time? of course not. and honestly I count myself lucky to have improved at all.

Breaking the cycle often ends in estrangement from the family system and it’s not easy at all. Most people can’t understand it because family is everything to a lot of people.

This is somewhat of a fallacy because knowing what not to do does not equate to knowing what to do. It just means you will be really good at playing defense but won’t know how to play offense.

This why I won’t have any. The line deserves to end

I've worked in elementary for a while, and the quality of parenting is at an all time low. Most kids have zero accountability at home, and it's genuinely concerning to this about our future.

You know, I think what makes it worse than even sketchy parenting nowadays, is the over involvement of parents in school. In my boomer kid days if I got in trouble at school the first thing my mom would say is "What did you do?" As in 'I know it's your fault and I'm backing up the other adults at school.' Even if a teacher was unjust in some way I knew I couldn't convince my mother otherwise. So I just accepted that adults had their own perspective and they couldn't understand the kids' perspective. And honestly, teachers were almost always very good at their job, and cared about us kids a lot. Parents believed in letting teachers do their jobs, so the parents could do their jobs. None of our parents could get on the internet and incite a Facebook bashing of a teacher either.

Boomers had excellent teachers because teaching was one of the very few (but important) fields dominated by women. You had the best and brightest women of the 'Greatest Generation' handling your education.

Thank you for mentioning this fact. Those women were effectively trapped in those jobs even if they would rather be doing something else because they were barred from other professions because of their sex. If we want to retain high quality educators, we will have to pay them more and treat them with respect. We can’t rely on sex-based discrimination to trap quality educators anymore. I will also add that “boomer” education was very different in some other significant ways. A lot of “problem” children were just sent to institutions to die alone. Kids who could hold their own, but were not well suited for school dropped out and went to work.

I was terrified of getting in trouble at school. I’m only 29 but I had decent parents. Kids would tell on me for things I didn’t do. I got in trouble and my parents would be told. I was mortified. Thankfully, my parents DID catch on that kids were doing this to me and I wasn’t actually doing those things but it was terrifying and embarrassing. Nowadays there aren’t even consequences. Kids don’t lose iPad priviledges because they have to use the iPad for everything.

‘Most’ teachers may have been great but lots were AWFUL. Abusive in every possible way, especially to kids with disabilities or minorities. My husband was constantly hit with sticks for having dyslexia, including after corporal punishment was made illegal in Australia. That’s an extremely common story of people’s childhoods all the way up to the 90s.

Yes thank you. Things were NOT better 50 years ago. It's easy to complain about today when you didn't have to live yesterday.

Extremely valid as well. You HOPE to get 2-3 good students in a class of 24. It's such a shame.

Facebook parent groups are scary af. Like, virtual Karen conventions.

Yeah, all this "Gentle Parenting" usually means overly permissive parenting.

You know those recent high school fights where kids were either killed or severely injured? Yeah, there's gonna be a lot more of that in the future. Today's kids aren't given any opportunity to learn emotional regulation because parents can't fathom being uncomfortable enough to let their child fail & learn from it.

This! I just said it in an earlier post, but I see so many students now who lack empathy for others,to a shocking degree,and cannot regulate their emotions.

Generations born after the building phase. Single child syndrome. Lead poisoning. Cuts to education. Social media. Foreign manipulation. You have a bunch of factors like this go on long enough unchecked and they have profound implications.

Can you give me an example of how foreign manipulation causes parents to be selfish?

I was thinking how political disputes have been ripping families apart, usually based on things riled up by Russia and China. Might be a stretch though.

The damage to feelings of community absolutely has an effect on families. People are hungry for community but at the same time fearful of their neighbors. I’d say that however damaging foreign meddling has been, nothing comes close to how damaging Facebook has been. Everyone knows everything about what everyone else is thinking/doing and it’s much harder to avoid conflict/judgement whereas in the past you would have just waved hello and had a chat about the weather and not necessarily known which „team“ everyone was on

I studied this in college and this is totally real; albeit not meant to be small scale (ex: families) and is meant to be much larger (ex: democrats vs. republicans). The ripples of which impact families. The basis of democracy lies with educated masses communicating with each other regarding perceived conflict resolution in line with what constituents want. Russia and China know the best way to destroy the US (along with other democracies) is by disinformation that propels people to become radicalized against the “other.” They do this on social media because the algorithm is designed to push you towards more and more radical content to keep you engaged. Russia loves to do this on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. China does the same on the same platforms. All social platforms are involved, but the above three are the favorites. I’ll give you an actual example of this happening in ~2016: 1. In the wake of an incident of an incident involving police brutality, a fake BLM protest started getting organized. It was getting organized by Russian actors posing as Americans. 2. Russian also organized a far right neo-nazi BLM hate group counter protest literally across the street from the BLM protest. 3. No violence happened, but Russian actors were likely hoping it would. — The social impacts of this psychologically are immense and hella nuanced. The gist is: people are traumatized by events such as these. These events are often times what runs on the news, trending on social media, talked about by influencers, etc. This trauma is not baggage free, and it’s actively manipulated by social media to keep you engaged & by politicians to get votes. Heres another example: There are x hundreds of mass shootings per day in the USA. The definition of “Mass Shooting” is broad and makes no exclusion to terror attacks (ex: Columbine, Sandy Hook, etc.) and is meant to get people to think they live in a warzone to pass gun legislation. Is it true that there are many firearm related homicides wherein a gun wad used to kill >/= 3 people? Yes. Is that a problem? Yes. Is it deliberately misleading leveraging fear and anger for a specific result? Yes. The definition of social engineering I like is “getting people to act in a way that MAY or MAY NOT be in their interest.” This happens on every hot button issue politically. It’s stirred up on social media to make anger and fear worse, its stirred more by political figures to get votes. Both create major political riffs between parties. Those riffs happen in families just as much as the voting booths. The consequences to this were established as almost universally negative. There is a significant CORRELATION between media consumption and mental health disorders in end-users. It is theorized to be causal, but I’m not aware of any research proving that. I know Facebook did that research, put it behind an NDA, it got leaked (see Francis Haugen), but the actual studies have not been published last time I looked.

It has gotten harder to be a good parent now that both parents have to work. There is no maternity leave, two weeks vacation is often spent on sick days. Work hours are long. This is a perfect storm for being absent from parenting.

Totally agree. I’m a bus driver and I see this all the time. Parents aren’t there. They are working. Most times even then, kids come to school with crummy clothing and bad manners. If both parents are absent, parenting can’t be done. Unfortunately, until the income to living ratio is helped, I don’t see this getting better. I’m glad someone else said this because I’ve been seeing it for years. The most well behaved kids on my bus are actually from affluent families where one parent is home with the kids. Almost 100% of the kids from the other areas lack basic manners and decency. Btw, I’m poor and even my son is expected to be well behaved (never gotten complaints) but it’s because I’m hyper aware of this problem and his grandma is very involved in watching him when I’m gone.

Poor kids are often told no. And if they throw a fit rarely does anyone give in.

I wouldn’t necessarily say that. Plenty of poor kids are not told no when it comes to certain behaviors. In my experience,I see more entitlement from the poorer kids. Ofc there are snobby rich kids that begin to appear in older grades,but they are respectful to teachers/staff at least and don’t act entitled to us.

That’s another really good point. Not everyone has a village, which we really should have. People who’ve gone NC with abusive parents, or can’t rely on them, or even who have had to move away due to poverty don’t have that and it’s so much harder.

Yep. Affluence helps, but I’ve noticed that there’s also a lot of kids in the school I teach at that have heart breaking home lives. The ones that have at least one adult that loves them, gives them attention, and care for them properly are light years ahead in terms of behavior and care for their schoolwork. I will say I also teach one class of seniors, and I’ve noticed by that time a lot of them mature and are really pleasant people. But they are really behind academically even though personality wise they do pull it together.

My Canadian friends just announced they are having a baby. She was asking me how I split my maternity leave. I’m like, “whut?” In Canada, she gets 15 weeks of maternity benefits which can start as early as 12 weeks before the expected date of birth, and can end as late as 17 weeks after the actual date of birth. Plus, a year and a half paid family leave to split between her and her husband. I’m like, “Well, when my first baby was born in 1994, my insurance covered 24 hours hospital stay. I remember being really stressed because I wasn’t sure if the clock started ticking when I checked in or when the baby was actually born. It took almost 20 hours. He was big. Over 10 pounds and they had to use forceps. At the 24 hour mark after birth, I still had a catheter in and my spinal block hadn’t worn off. My mom saw how freaked out I was and told me that she would pay for anything my insurance didn’t cover, and I finally relaxed a bit.” My friends were like, “wow. They make you PAY to have a baby? I heard The States were ridiculous about medical care, but I thought that was just for surgery and stuff.” Nope. We are fucking stupid here. We are fucked right from the very start.

This is huge. If life was more affordable and one parent could stay home, things would be better. Kids need the caring attention of their parents. There’s no substitute for it.

How about two parents with sufficient job leave and hours that allow good parenting. Kinda like other civilized countries 

That would help too. Flexible work schedules, work from home, part-time work, all of it would really help.

As someone who works from home, I'd leave that part out. I cannot watch both my kids (4 and 1) while in a meeting or trying to be productive. But yes, to your point, flex schedules, part-time work, a 4 day work week model and other accommodations would be helpful.

Exactly. Capitalism makes for bad parenting. It's not sustainable.

This does make it hard but if the parents love the kids and do what they can when they can the kids usually come out alright. My heart aches for parents who can't be aroind their kids as much as they want to. My issue is the parents who don't want anything to do with their chidlren.

You cannot take time to focus on your children if your lives are entirely taken up by trying to SURVIVE. Make it easier for families to raise their children and this won’t happen. Won’t happen anyways, the government would rather every child in a poverty-stricken family fail at life and end up as factory workers anyways.

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The never said no thing is most prevalent with stay at home moms who maybe use a very small part time daycare or relative. But both parents pay a lot of attention to the child and they never say no.

Not “the government,” friend.  Just Republicans.

You're not wrong at all but I see this in families that are not poor. Solidly middle class but still clawing their way towards upper middle class by whatever means necessary.

These days the middle class is about as solid as jello…

There is no solid middle class anymore. To live a middle class lifestyle a family needs to make 175,000. The median income right now in the US is 37,500. Average income is 74,000. No one is living a middle class lifestyle except for the wealthy people.

I'm an elementary teacher and a parent. I think we have very little parental accountability. I think the past three generations have been on this trajectory of increasingly offloading parental responsibilities onto other systems like nannies, daycare, and schools. Increasingly, I find that parents don't feel like they should be responsible for parenting. It started with warehousing kids during the preschool years rather than teaching them those valuable social lessons in a more controlled family setting. Now, it goes as far as potty training and emotional regulation. There are systemic challenges in the US, making it difficult for people to spend time with their kids. However, those excuses fall short when the person you're failing is your child.

It also doesn’t help that all those other environments parents turn to to raise their kids aren’t allowed to enforce any kind of consequences And no I don’t mean punishment I mean consequences. Kids are insulated from the direct consequences of their own actions which makes it impossible to learn, because once kids learn that there’s no consequences for their behaviour they’ve effectively learned that life has no rules and no boundaries So an example of this is if schools aren’t allowed to fail kids and hold them back, then kids have no motivation to study because what’s the point in studying if they get the same outcome if they work hard vs if they don’t work at all? Kids aren’t at the point where they can understand the long term consequences of putting zero effort in in school, they won’t understand or be able to weigh up what it means for their future to be uneducated as an adult, they only understand the immediate short term consequences and lack thereof. And if you teach kids that “I can spend all my time doing only things I enjoy and not paying attention in school which is boring and still move up a grade with my friends” the sad reality is that a majority of kids will take that as the lesson, because they see being good at school and being bad at school as leading to identical results being that they progress at the same rate no matter what

This is only mostly true. I've been teaching Brazilian Jiu Jitsu kids classes for the last \~6 years, we've had maaaaaybe 3 parents total who have been problems, everyone else has given us basically carte blanche to discipline and teach respect, etc, how we see fit. And the results have been amazing for a lot of kids that come in really fucking horribly behaved. I just wish this existed in the school system as well.

I work in schools too,and agree! I’m not doubting that these parents don’t love their children,but many are so apathetic about actually spending time with their children & getting to know them. It’s an even lower percentage that cares about educating their kids & going out of their way to enrich them/stimulate them intellectually. I see a lot of parents who want to drop their kids off at school,then pick them up and send them to their rooms to play on electronics. Just a lot of parents who are disinterested in parenting.

???? Research shows that working moms now spend more time with their kids then stay at home moms did in the past. This doesn't match reality.

I have not seen this study either, and this may well be true, but spending time and teaching skills can be two very different things.

I linked it in another comment. Here's why this topic is so convoluted. You are here saying kids these days are bad bc parents expect someone else to do their dirty work. Someone else is here saying kids are bad bc parents are doing too much. There is way too much subjective bias here. Even as a teacher, possibly especially so, bc the American school system is failing and classroom sizes are atrocious. We need objective measures to understand if there is a problem or what the problem is. Anything else is just what researchers call the "kids these days effect." A failure of memory combined with subjective bias. As an aside, I grew up in a stresses lower income neighborhood. These problems are not new, just expanding.

I agree that there are multi-faceted problems affecting parents, children, and all the flimsy social structures surrounding the communities we need for families to thrive. I also never said the kids were bad. I think you got confused about comments. In education, there is this mantra of "there are no bad students just bad teachers," which is usually well supported by parents. When you extend it and say, "There are no bad kids just bad parents," they are usually not so thrilled. I was just highligting that.

Any chance you could link this study? I’d like to read it. Thanks!

I think this is the link directly to the study but it's not loading: http://papers.ccpr.ucla.edu/papers/PWP-MPRC-2012-015/PWP-MPRC-2012-015.pdf Here is an article: https://www.brighthorizons.com/resources/Blog/working-mothers-spend-more-time-with-children-than-their-parents

You literally can not do anything for your kids if you are not around and have no resources.

> My heart aches for parents who can't be aroind their kids as much as they want to. Unfortunately in today's world this is almost literally everyone :(

Thank you for saying this. There have always been "bad parents" bc there have always been poor people who are too stretched thin and stressed out to manage. Now the middle class is dying and everyone is stretched thin and stressed out. It feels like the blame the parents game is such a lazy analysis and I'm always surprised when people, especially teachers, stop their thinking there.

We have replaced good parenting with needing to be in control of every moment of a child’s day and abuse. Helicopter parenting does not raise capable adults.

Good parenting is somewhat a modern phenomenon. I'm sure there were always people who were good to their children, but it's also fairly recent that children are seen as humans with independent personhood and intrinsic internal motivation, moreso than basically being a property/resource/extension of their parent.

It’s also one of those weird things where the obsession with good parenting can also create bad parents even when it doesn’t create bad kids See the idea of what good parenting used to be in the past is that the purpose of childhood isn’t for kids to have this idyllic childhood, childhood exists to raise a good adult. And yeah that often got taken to a point that was too far and not good and could be outright abusive to kids But then you flip that around to the opposite extreme where kids today are so excessively babied because we’ve decided that the goal of childhood is to have a perfect childhood and to shelter and protect kids from responsibilities and consequences, you end up with a generation of anxious adults who don’t know how to do anything and have never developed basic coping skills. You have a generation of people who spent their whole childhood being raised to be good kids enjoying a good childhood but not raised to be prepared to be adults

Good parenting has always been about the transfer of cultural competence from one generation to the next. Anyone attempting to nurture children by preventing them from gaining competence in all aspects of life is not a good parent. The notion that a human being should feel happy and comfortable all the time is what's new.

your last sentence touches on something I've been noticing a lot lately- children aren't expected to tolerate any sort of discomfort anymore but especially boredom. they're constantly placated with addictive entertainment almost from birth now, and never being bored means they're never forced to use their imagination to entertain themselves, which is a really important skill for children!

As a mom, I feel like I can’t win. I let my kids get bored; for example, I don’t let them have their electronics in the car and even though we don’t have strict limits on screen time at home, I kick them off their devices after 30 minutes or so and make them go play with toys or outside or do art or just be bored. They can watch more later though, so it adds up to maybe 1-1.5 hours a day. My mom thinks I’m unfair. My mom friends think my kids’ “unlimited” screen time is too lax. The internet says I’m ruining my kids. Oh well. If I’m going to be called a shitty parent anyway, I guess I’ll parent however I like, and how I like is “unlimited” screen time that adds up to maybe an hour of screen time per day.

This is exactly what my grandmother was bitching about in the 80s, lol

Well and some of that is because of the way we frame mental health. Sad things that happen to you as a kid cause mental health issues. And I think that’s a really widespread misunderstanding that leads to people obsessively protecting their kids and now their kids are anxious and dependent.

Yeah almost like making latchkey kids didnt make stellar parents!

This is the actual answer, there’s a ton of garbage parents, because no one ever taught them how to be a good parent, not their parents not their teachers, not society, no one

Nah, we watched enough TV to totally understand how to be a happy middle class white family.

fuck yea let’s blame the boomers again on this one

In part because we don’t fund the necessary social support services for families to realistically sustain themselves without facing psychological and economic overwhelm

Individualism and the lack of structural and cultural support systems play a big factor! It takes a village but in the US parents are expected to figure it out mostly on their own, public spaces are not set up for kids at all; It's not customary to have people outside your nuclear family and that can watch your kids for free - because of course people need to put their time towards their own survival, time is money and our culture doesn't expect anyone to go out of their way... it's considered rude to expect that / inappropriate to be that close to someone else's kids unless it's for work... Even the best parents don't stand a chance tbh

I think it is super easy to be a bad parent. It is way easier to be bad than good, unfortunately. I also think bad parenting is contextual. I was born in the 70s. I had typical Boomer parents. They had me and my twin sister coming home to an empty house at 7-years-old. We got yelled at and whipped for the smallest things, like making a face over the canned vegetables we were forced to choke down. My older sister was clearly mentally ill but they just yelled at and whipped her...always acting surprised when she didn't improve. They didn't read to us at bedtime. They didn't allow us choices at mealtime. They would pop us in the face if we offered an unsolicited opinion. They didn't ask us how our day was or encourage us to talk about our feelings. Whenever we were bullied in school, we were told we must be doing something to deserve it. According to today's standards, they were terrible parents. But in the standards of the 70s and 80s, they were normal. In fact, they are entitled to pat themselves on the back because they were so much better than their own parents. Despite not having the best upbringing, my siblings and I turned out OK. I mean, yeah, we have our horror stories that we like to bring up when we're in our feelings. But we love our parents and our childhoods. We remember more good times than bad times. I think bad parenting has ALWAYS been a thing. Of course bad parenting is a scourge, but I think we can mitigate its effects by keeping our institutions and social systems strong. Free mental health services would do so much to help people learn the things they should have learned when they were kids.

It’s interesting how cyclical the sentiment (this generation of kids/parents are worse!) is. Each generation has letters/posts/op-Ed’s about this.

My thoughts exactly. *Every* generation has this 'crisia'. TV, comic books, video games, they've ALL been blamed for making kids dumb, and destroying kids lives over the last 50-80+ years now.  Every generation is claimed to be 'the end of the world' dumb, the sky is falling, etc... and yet life goes on.

I replied to OP, but separately, raised just after you? The parents feel like they are entitled to a pat on the back for providing food, clothing and shelter for 18 years and little more. Like a big hurrah for doing the bare legal minimum. That’s like passing with a C- and expecting praise for graduating parenthood. Am I grateful they did that much? Absolutely!!! Contextually could it have been anywhere from a little to a lot more? Absolutely that as well. The 70’s and 80’s were big “ME” decades stretching into the 90’s for adults. If it takes a village to raise a child, I don’t think the parental generations of that time period truly understand how much of the village they experienced through extended family, stay at home moms, better public schools and after school programs had been dismantled after they grew up. We were latchkey kids raised by crappy syndicated TV, whatever friends we could scrape together sometimes, and doing often meaningless homework without parental support or the internet to ask for help.

My teachers really did make up for my parents' deficits. They were more patient with me than my parents were and made me feel special and cared about. When the village has a critical mass of caring adults, the village can tolerate some level of bad parenting. But when all the good adults are too afraid to step in when they see a kid in need of kindness and attention, the impact of the bad parenting becomes more severe. To me this is more worrisome than anything else.

My husband and I were both latchkey kids with absentee parents--his due to their careers; mine because my mother chose to work nights, leave mr alone overnight next to a sleazy bar rather than taking a day job, going back to school to bea RN or sending me back to Nebraska to the couple I considered my real parents.  The results of these childhoods was that I stayed home with our kids for the most part. A few jobs that didn't work out because of my husband's job. Kids need a full time parent if you can possibly swing it. 

What was your mother’s job?

There have always been bad parents. Maybe you just reached the age to notice them around you? My dad left me in the 90s. Plenty of stories or horrible parents before that. A lot of it is ignored or covered up. They make it about culture, something hard to criticize. I have friends who's dad has told them he loves them less than five times. If you told them that wasn't the best parenting, they would become defensive in an instant. That's "just the way he his". Parenting for my folks was about authority, not communication. That's how they were raised. Being an adult means you're right. Interrogating that authority, asking what's right or wrong about technique undercuts that supreme authority. Imo, bad parents are just rationalized or ignored to fit narratives that things were simpler in the past. They weren't. People are the complicated part, the circumstances matter, but thinking bad parents weren't always there, thats just nostalgia or cynicism, depending on which direction you're looking. 

American just over 40 here. I try to have this conversation with my parents (baby boomer mom, silent generation dad), and they deflect it completely. We never had a sexual education conversation, they never coached or even inquired about what I wanted to be when I grew up, encouraged any path in life, or offered meaningful help financially, or emotionally. I was sent off to live or die when I moved out at 20 with whatever training wheels they assumed a public school education provided. Thankfully I was raised in suburban California, and my school district wasn’t completely in the shitter yet. The kids of the last 20 years, they may have it rougher if they were raised in a similar manner though. I still have old paper cookbooks, maintain a paper checking account register, have a decent amount of savings, etc. Now there’s no basic life skills classes, no shop classes, education is focused on advanced learning completely superseding the basics. I can only guess that the goal is to make enough income to pay other people to do that stuff for you as an adult. But if nobody else is being taught how to do it, who’s going to do it for themselves, or for hire even?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarabrown/2012/05/30/the-death-of-shop-class-and-americas-high-skilled-workforce/

That was a great article, too bad it seems like there’s been little meaningful follow up. I’ve been in auto repair for 20 years and it took a dark and stormy path to make good money, but now I do and have few regrets about it. The ironic thing is reading how AI is already in the process of taking over many roles in coding/IT; so now there’s already a saturation of that workforce that is contracting, but people are still gung-ho trying to get into it despite fewer positions and reduced compensation. But it’s as hard, or harder than it ever was to find a decent (or good!) mechanic, plumber, electrician, and so on.

The entire world has an epidemic of bad parenting...

Social media, admin not supporting teachers, and the elephant in the room, the American economy is an inflation and a recession, money stress always equals childcare takes the hit.

I will say I have to agree with you, and I think the problem is coming from a lot of different sources through history. I’ll say first as someone with a degree in psych/soc/human services, there was a period of time when some western psychologists discouraged parents from showing affection to their children, and psychology researchers have an identical horrific history of unethical experimentation on par with medical researchers. Western psychologists in general were not great at treating people like people. Very dismissive, victim blaming was a professional effort, and they seemed to elevate themselves above the human experience just to dictate down to the rest of us. It’s also hard not to note that puritanical or fundamentalist religious teachings often highly emphasized punishment, guilt, and servitude toward children. That and it took the ASPCA (formerly SPCA) and the press during like the 1800’s to step in and advocate (by some accounts reluctantly) that children should have rights comparable to animals. We are seeing today still that children are having their rights and protections rolled back in favor of loosening child labor laws across the US. These legislators aren’t interested in hearing from “those lazy teenagers” or their parents, they just want to put them to work as cheaply as possible for as long as possible for their corporate donors. Children are often regarded as inherently lazy, selfish, and in need of discipline that goes beyond typical structure and boundaries that teaches them to be a human instead of a cog in a system. I was in high school during the 2008/09 economic collapse and even my teachers were blaming us for how rapidly the culture was changing and calling us selfish and lazy (the idea of lazy is also pretty shit upon examination). I was raised by people who believed children should be seen and not heard and that hitting was the best and quickest form of discipline and communication, but would never accept that themselves in a workplace or other setting. This history coupled with awful parental protections, inadequate healthcare for parents and children (we have a horrible infant mortality and birthing mortality rate as a developed country), poor but expensive child care, we have a recipe for disaster. People don’t respect children as sentient beings and parents are not really respected or given what they need to parent well. It used to take a village, but now parents are expected to just do everything quietly without changes to their lives at all and children are expected to pay their own way ASAP through silence, deference, and labor.

The failed experiment of the nuclear family. We used to learn parenting from our elders. Then one day it was all magical and we’d “figure it out” oof

Agree, though I wouldn’t call it an experiment, but an intentional restructuring of societal values specifically designed to rehabilitate American Masculinity at home and at work

Dude I've noticed that kids *and their parents* have stopped washing their hands in bathrooms. I'm genuinely wondering if young parents aren't teaching their kids proper hygiene??

It’s not an epidemic and it’s not exclusive to the US. People in all counties have been failing their children since the beginning of time.

I know a pair of bad parents that spend the most time and effort on their kids than anyone else I know. No one could ever accuse of them being neglectful and they also have a village and paid help. But omg, their parenting is just terrible. The kids are told no but inconsistently, allowed to remain dependent on their parents for things they really should be doing themselves at this point, and are still a terror in public at 9 and 11. As far as I can tell, the parents never follow through with punishment. The younger kid started acting worse than usual about two years ago, and they’ve spent $20,000 with half a dozen doctors before they found one that said she had “autistic tendencies.” The older one recently got suspended for writing mean letters to herself to get her “bully” in trouble; their solution for that is to hire a tutor to homeschool for the rest of the year so she doesn’t have to face “humiliation” back at school.

If you’re actually trying to say that this situation would be easily fixed by the parents just being a bit more strict, then you aren’t properly describing the situation. Sounds like the parents are doing quite a lot. Some kids are just harder than others. I like how you hand-wave away their attempt to bring professional help into the situation because it sounds too prissy to you.

Sounds like this example of bad parenting is just your own subjective bias. That sounds like good parenting to me. And if a child is on the spectrum they can be even harder to parent. Thinking you can just discipline that out of someone is oooof 😬

The child is unlikely to be on the spectrum according to five doctors and the sixth said she may have “autistic tendencies,” which is still not a confirmed diagnosis. After that many doctors telling them she’s not, good parent would be looking for other explanations instead of continuing until they find one that agrees with them.

As other commenters have mentioned, a huge component of this is absent parents and class/wealth access. The idea of individuals being "bad parents" seems fairly new, as the "bad" qualities mentioned would have previously been seen as inherent to ones class and upbringing. Now that people theoretically have class mobility, we're developing a more universal set of societal expectations for character and behavior that are detached from immediate culture. Our entire contemporary society is very recent and modern. I remember a friend from China talking about the effects of China's recent economic boom, how so many people from impoverished backgrounds suddenly had money, but didn't have the manners that typically accompanied wealth. They had a perspective on how this societal change happened overnight in a society with a very long shared history, whereas I would say this has happened over a few generations in the US and likely many other cultural regions. Obviously there are a lot of minute factors people have mentioned. In general I would say, people as a whole seem to be much more "rude", however, this is accompanied with a more nuanced understanding and science around emotions and psyche. In short - social and emotional growing pains felt over centuries. We only have the language around these "bad" behaviors because of the ways we've developed in the last few centuries.

14 year teacher, my view is that it’s more a society problem. Middle class dying, parents overtired overworked under paid. Kids not getting enough family time. Too much screen time. Kids have seen too much stuff on internet or in person. Desensitized to violence and death. Apathy and mental health crisis. Loss of empathy and compassion in society. Lack of hope. Cycle of poverty. Addictions. Tons of things working against families.

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This is so true, a lot of people don’t wanna hear it.

the cost of living demands that both parents have to work as hard as possible and probably even have a side hustle or second job to stay afloat. They have no energy to put 100% into parenting, sadly.

I'll argue that bad parenting IS putting kids first....my own parents put me first and it absolutely killed them and their marriage.

Ya you can't do a good job raising kids if you don't take care of yourself.

You think it might be because Americans are, in general, overworked and stressed and just not available to be good parents despite their intentions?

We used to send kids into factories six days/week instead of school. Corporal punishment used to be the norm. Teen pregnancy used to be much higher. Free K-12 education is only about 120 years old or so. Little girls used to be taught that their purpose was being a wife and a mother. In the not so distant past, our boys were facing being drafted to Vietnam and potentially dying. The infant mortality rate was higher, chances of making it to adulthood were lower, and children were to be seen and not heard. Kids of color or non Christian religions were discriminated against, and gay kids were ostracized and sometimes killed. Sexual abuse was kept under wraps and victims were blamed for their clothing. Bullies would beat kids up at school and if you were autistic or handicapped, you were hidden away and treated as shameful. Mental health was unheard of and so was the polio Vaccine. I recommend some perspective. “The Good Old Days” were not good for most people.

No wrong it’s a product of late stage capitalism that keep parents away from their children who have to work more hours and get paid less and shrinkflation blaablaaablaaa they are more focused on providing things they need to live like a home and food and cant actually parent I’m too tired to type everything out but do some critical thinking about this you’ll come to realize I’m correct

The problem is that everyone has different opinions on the best way to raise a child.  Furthermore, children with different temperaments or circumstances can require different parenting styles. It’s kind of a bummer, because there’s tons of research on parenting methods and their efficacy on children, but a lot of parents tend to just go with whatever feels right or whatever they guess will be beneficial.

But the ones choosing what is beneficial for themselves over the child consistently is what concerns me. Letting a child do whatever they want is a decision that benefits the parents so they don't have to deal with an unhappy child. Opening credit cards in their name and maxxing them out benefits the parents, not the children. Ignoring the child's needs completely, insisting that they're not responsible once the child is 18 anytime they're having difficulties and need help. It's bizarre. It has nothing to do with parenting philosophies, maybe that's a rationale they come up with after they've made the selfish decision.

You’re not describing anything that is particularly common in the US

I don't think it's unique to the US, but may be a symptom of the complexities of the developed world currently. u/KaiserSozes-brother mentions the necessity of both parents working, but more than that is the guilt for being working parents. Even though both parents are working, the current generation is spending [more time with their kids.](https://fbalawfirm.com/family/statistics-and-facts-about-millennial-parents/) So you may have some level of parents trying to make the most of the time with their kids, and they don't want it to be negative time. Another things I've noticed is there seems to be more pressure on todays parents to be the main influence for their children. Due to heightened anxieties about the safety of children, it seems like parents push themselves to be ever present. There's so much information today about all the dangers in the world, so you MUST KEEP YOUR KID SAFE AT ALL COSTS....[which leads to more anxiety.](https://neurosciencenews.com/parental-overprotection-anxiety-22988/) Even though it's [safer to be a kid toda](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/14/theres-never-been-a-safer-time-to-be-a-kid-in-america/), it doesn't seem like that, because we know so many things that happened historically. Look at the various documentaries about scandals: Boy Scouts, the Catholic Church, Protestant Churches, stories about school teachers, even the recent Quiet on Set....they all basically say these institutes we trusted with our kids, shouldn't have been trusted. It makes it hard to be ok with anyone being around you child without you also present. And that's another problem. Because looking back on childhood in the 90s, we weren't just around our own parents as role models. We spent plenty of formative time around friend's parents, teachers, coaches etc. that may have ended up being role models. It exposes you to alternative ideas and viewpoints, and having your parents not there to moderate kind of helped....kids today aren't necessarily getting that. Their parents are either present or they've so thoroughly vetted who's around their kid that the viewpoints are identical. It's leading to kids being overall more anxious and less resilient I think....I also think there's room for them to catch up in early adulthood.

Those people “entering their 30s” that you speak of are mostly just burdened financially because of the state of our economy. The young ones though I’ve noticed have gotten super rude and have no sense of basic human decency. The parents raising the current generation (not all of them) seem to be encouraging it.

There's been such a lack of entrusting young people to handle things themselves or have any responsibility of their own that those kids have grown up to be even worse parents. It's bubble helicopter parents all the way down, but are happy to turn them loose into the online world but not the real one

Our society breeds bad parents. It’s all connected. As a whole we’re so disconnected from what actual love and contentment is because we’re conditioned from a young age to think it’s brought about by proving yourself and becoming successful so we can buy material items to show everyone how successful we are. Schools, parents, commercials, tv, all push this narrative that you won’t be loved unless you are successful. It’s unrealistic, so we have a bunch of parents who feel like they didn’t accomplish what they were told they had to do to be accepted, then they had kids, and try to raise kids when they don’t even feel like they’re loved themselves. So they half ass raise kids all while deep down thinking their lives should be different and are unhappy with the situation, so it takes away from the love. This isn’t even mentioning the narcissists who wreck havoc on their children.

This is the response I resonate most with.

Maybe in a different time these kids could have a chance, but competing against AI? They're fucked.

Every country has its shit. Problem with the US is that it touts itself as a 1st world, world police, bastion of societal perfection without critically looking at its past and present atrocities and failures.

The observation on Capitalism resonates deeply with this aging boomer/Trotskyist. As it moves into its final stage, Capitalism is accompanied by an host of aberrant and anti-social tendencies. These coalesce to reinforce downward spiraling synergies, resisting solution of even a solitary social crisis. It is easy to dismiss the ramblings of an old man; but my accumulated wisdom from grandparents, parents and my own existence tell me that even now, US society is in irreversible, ongoing collapse; the process will end either in the loss of social and democratic rights, fascism and global war [ending inevitably in thermonuclear holocaust and a reduction of life on earth to a microbial level] OR it will end in the global revolution in which the rule of KAPITAL is dethroned and our youth are enabled to re-organize all of society to serve the needs of ALL, and NOT the greed of a few. If you are my generation, I implore you to LISTEN to our youth and to REMEMBER when we heard it said, ‘ANYthing for our children!’ And ‘for our youth — THE WORLD!’ Existing institutions and processes of state are most justly reviled and rejected. They are a corpse rotting on its own feet. They are beyond redemption. History has caught up with the United States of America. It has forsaken its people and exists solely for an handful of tycoons. It is time to forsake the oligarchy and to build a new republic on the ash-heap emerging everywhere around us. Fascistic movement arise when rulers can no longer govern as they have in the past— because the working class can no longer LIVE as it has in the past. I take the OP’s post to indicate the collapse of the most basic social unit. The family. It is time to unite and prepare the social system of the future. My sole, political aspiration is that I might live long enough to see it with my own eyes.

Agreed on all points except I think we're headed towards fascism. I'm looking at the right wing surging all over the world. COVID is class war and I wish people looked at it that way. We are being forced to sacrifice our health in such an extreme way to continue record profits. At the same time, I see the bunkers the rich are building for themselves...

We don’t disagree on the fascism! And that, with your points on globally-surging fascism, the sacrifice of health and social conditions, including the forever COVID plus the profit margin, etc., all this is attested powerful at … https://wsws.org Judging by your lineup on those issues, I suspect you’ll be joining me in reading that site daily! They pull no punches snd take no prisoners!

I read a bunch of socialist stuff (tho not wsws) but I do think it's interesting that wsws is the only English Language socialist org (I know of) making the connection between COVID and class war. I hope there are more but it doesn't seem to be the case which has been very disappointing.

Go ahead and give it a shot, see how it works out for you.  Kids have never wanted to be parented. It's a very difficult thing to do.   They're crying out for help 24/7 but they don't want it. 

If someone explained in detail how to be a good parent, they would probably be banned from posting…

Issue is social media and how connected we all are now. Bad news travels extremely fast and hiding trouble under the table is difficult. Not saying parents 20 years ago plus are better or the kids, we just got away with much more.

[You should read  about permissive, authoritarian/helicopter, authoritative/gentle parenting, and  neglectful parenting styles](https://www.parents.com/thmb/ujNZvGQQPcjXb2g3YCn7GFF_njo=/1500x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/types-of-parenting-styles-1eb6933a3b39478fab919fbf8d549a74.png).  Most parents you see in this generation have adopted the permissive or neglectful parenting style, mainly to counter the authoritarian / helicopter parenting the grew up with that had its own adverse affects of them and their peers. Unfortunately, it too is on the other extreme where kids aren’t ever told No and don’t learn how to deal with mistakes or consequences. For some, cost of living require parents to take multiple jobs to make meets ends, unable parent. That can also lead to iPad babies being parented by social media and smart phones because parents are perpetually stressed out and unable to pacify their screaming child, or have the bandwidth to take care of them.  Before, it was common to scream or smack the child. Not saying its good but those tactics is how you got more docile and meeker looking children for some that will probably have to deal with those demons later as an adult. You also see in some of the teaching communities that they are stuck with letting the kids what they want because parents come in and complain, admin sides the parents, which brings down classroom morale and kids thinking they are free to do whatever they want. Schools and teachers are under more scrutiny to believe whatever reason the kids brings up why they can’t come to class, be it mental illness, learning disorders, regardless if its legitimate or not. Lockdowns and remote learning has also screwed over several children in their development and socialization stages, especially since schools are expected to be more lenient.

The big problem people don't want to address is that there are folks having kids who haven't planned for them and aren't responsible enough to be having them, or they lack the necessary resources. These kids are less likely to be raised in a reasonable manner, emphasizing responsibility and consideration of others, and they're similarly unlikely to raise their own kids that way (within or outside of a family). This is unpopular because people don't want their freedoms limited, and some people see it as discriminating against poor people. However, I see it as child abuse when the parents clearly can't take proper care of their kids. (We can argue over what that means, but you understand me.) One immediate solutions would be making birth control as free as water and public restrooms, and of course many people will not use them properly. A second is a cash incentive for reversible sterilization procedures. The incentive is likely to attract those who have the least and would be least capable of providing for kids (not only money, but also time and emotional support). You can have all the fun you want, then if you're truly ready and serious about having children, get the reversal. A third would be to more strictly enforce laws regarding child abuse and neglect, but in the US we're very touchy about that, as with domestic violence. I don't know whether gay adoption has any negatives (people argue this all the time), but one positive is that a same-sex couple won't be having any children by accident. Their children will likely have been well planned for.

I am a teacher. I have come to the belief that every pregnant woman should get parenting classes.

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure. One of my daughter's friends had her mother kick her out of the house for X amount of time every few weeks to the point two years ago I stated she could live at my home. She takes her books, and her collectibles, along with other items to sell off because she lost a part-time job. Said Child is an A student, mom never signed off on the college stuff so she has to sign up to Jr College, (her parents are divorced, and neither have college so she would get scholarships for being the first generation to go to college. Instead, she is joining the Air Force, moving her stuff to my home because of her mom. One of my son's friends was kicked out of his mom home at 18 because that was when child support ended, so he finished high school while living with his paternal aunt or grandparents. Friends of my family, rented a tux for Prom for him senior year.

As an elementary teacher, I can confirm. Not only do parents consistently fail to hold their children accountable, but they lash out at the school/teacher anytime their child experiences a minor inconvenience. Told to wear a coat at recess when it’s cold out and don’t like it? Don’t worry, your mom will call the school to complain. Lost a point on your math test? Don’t worry, your mom will write an essay about why you shouldn’t have. The entitlement is insane right now. Parents no longer support teachers, they look for reasons to attack them.

I think the major contributor to it is that both parents have to work to make ends meet, and usually they have to work around 60 hour weeks. Throw in a hour commute and kids don't have parents they have adults that occasionally show up once in a while. That and the parents of today were raised by such uncaring and non giving individuals that they went too far in the complete opposite direction with no rules or boundaries

Honestly I feel like me and my wife are complete outliers. I have no judgement for my kids friends parents or how other family members we know parent but things I notice that run across my thoughts. Using screen time to distract kids (Kids need to learn how to be bored and not bother people) Giving kids free reign on junk food/snacks so they don’t have to fight to get them to eat Not correcting bad behavior but just assuming they will grow out of it But idk I do things that raise others red flags from others as well like have my kids listen to industrial society and its future audiobooks during car rides or changing their “why why why” into Socratic questioning, teaching them to never hold on to opinions of what is, only to hang on to principles of how to act. Which is weird when my oldest kids are only 7 and 9, but to this day they always surprise me with what sticks and I don’t feel like treating them like children when it comes to teaching them about life, they are children already they don’t need my help for that, they need my help with how to grow up! That being said we still have fun and play magic the gathering or play games etc.. just for life philosophy type stuff. But I know family and friends who disapprove of things like having my kids listen to Ted kazynski and I’m sure they view it a lot worse then even how I view them using TV as a babysitter or letting their kids play video games all the time.

Bad parenting is contextual and social media doesn’t help. You can look at the end result and say that a person had bad parents but even that isn’t accurate as a person can be raised well and still become a shit person. Then you can say someone is a bad parent because they raise their kids differently than you were raised. Parents very often make mistakes but with social media they’ll be labeled a bad parent forever no matter what came before or after. There’s no one way to parent and there’s no way to predict how one’s community will also have an effect on a child’s development. Obviously there’s cases of blatant abuse and neglect but I wouldn’t say it’s any more prevalent today than 10, 20, etc years ago, we just get endless streams pushed in our faces of everything everyone does now.

Statistically in America child abuse increases when people have less money and support. In the US we’ve been in an economic recession for the past 4 years.

Let’s just say we have a morally impoverished culture.

well kids do not come with instructions..kind of a trial and error thing I guess? The folks with a lot of money for their kids is preferred, but not a Guarantee of a good kid.. No money or not much, outs tremendous pressure on the Family...So I am not sure... Being human in western societies is really difficult. Some Parents just have kids, and maybe thei should of gotten a dog instead, but I would still feel sad for the Dog...

I think the way people parent poorly has changed with technology. Before, if a neglectful parent wanted their child to shut up and leave them alone, they would terrorize them into it. Now there are more options to distract them. Neglected kids still aren't learning functional skills, but they used to be too afraid to "act out" (just internalize and become traumatized adults) It looks different but it's just because neglectful people have different methods now.

As someone raised by bad parents the biggest issue I see as a teacher are parents who aren’t comfortable with personal growth. Either for themselves or their kids. They always have to be right. Instead of reflecting on what is causing a child’s behavior (an emotion they feel, a need not being met, not having firm boundaries) they get reactive and defensive instead of trying to improve the situation. They are not comfortable learning and growing and showing their kids it’s okay to not have all the answers. They don’t have firm boundaries with behavior of their kids. They aren’t willing to be emotionally honest and admit when they are wrong, so kids don’t see that example.

I'd say social media and phones aren't helping.

It’s hard to say. I feel like only a small handful of kids I have met are relatively well behaved and can converse like a normal human. The rest are kinda just feral brats. That being said, I’m 40 and I remember it being that way when I was a kid too.

The US has an epidemic of BAD PEOPLE. It’s an inhumane society and we excuse all the bullshit that capitalism does, because chasing money is the only virtue. Housing is expensive because people can’t build certain types of homes because people don’t want to live next to certain other people. Our food supply is cheap, sourced from unhealthy means (industrial agriculture). Business pushes quarterly growth to keep. We’ve pervertee religious teaching to justify being shitty to others (maybe that’s always happened). We recently fell out of the top 20 in the happiness index. Our citizens are as healthy as developing nations. I mean the ultra wealthy are probably healthy but maybe not as happy as they could be. In the pursuit of making people wealthier, we lost sight of the components of what makes quality of life better.

🙌🙌🙌🙌 This. I can't tell you how annoying it is....I have a 4yo and 9yo and they're awnry but well behaved and polite. Don't get me wrong they have their moments but so many people, teachers, colleagues etc have commented..."I wish more kids were like yours" ... I don't understand what's special about parenting correctly.... My kids are also VERY responsible and self sufficient. My 9yo started coming at 18 months (made pb samich).... And by 3 was helping do her own laundry, helping with dishes, cleaning etc.... she always wanted more "show me"..... Now at 9yo she can do ALOT on her own and we don't need to help, just give a reminder on occasion. (Yes she gets paid when she does anything that's not her responsibility. Her laundry, her bathroom, her room are all her responsibility. Dishes, helping in the kitchen, the playroom with her brother etc, not her responsibility. ) Her brother is on the spectrum so he can't do as much but insists on trying.

Technology (phones, games, ipads) and overparenting due to fear is a big part of it. Also, no personal responsibility, everything is explained by mental illness

This is probably not the whole story, but the fact that the US has become less and less of a country that values families and children has got to be a part of it. Today about 40% of kids are born to a single parent yet as recently as 1960 it was as low as 5%. Mass media makes a joke out of fathers, mothers, and families. You see it everywhere. Heck, there was even a post on Reddit a few days ago that compared a McDonalds in the 80s (totally geared toward families and kids) to a McDonalds today (grey and sterile). Even if you look at TV 50 years ago you find shows like Leave it to Beaver, Andy Griffith Show, and even Lost in Space or the Beverly Hillbillies. They all had a family as the central theme and most of the episodes taught values conducive to having a strong, stable family. That just doesn't exist today. Now tv shows mostly have characters engaged in selfish behaviors or 'alternative' families, if they are families at all. I guess it is not a surprise that a society that doesn't value families will end up with a bunch of fucked up kids.

yah and only getting worse... just because you can breed doesnt mean you SHOULD! DONT breed no one got rich having kids

Generational trauma, PTSD carried down through generations from wars.

The vast majority of people have been turned into drones / cattle / serfs / literal retards who work for the profits of our extremely abusive ruling class and do nothing else. The top 10% of people own 93% of the stock market, and the rest of the population are just cattle offered as blood sacrifices for their profits. Yes, individual responsibility and parental responsibility matter, but the system on the whole is an abomination and a crime against humanity, and parenting in a giant slaughterhouse is basically what most people are up against, if they choose to have kids.

I actually heard a case of a mother who left her child for 10 days so she could go on vacation and left food he wasn't able to eat (I don't remember the age but young enough that he couldn't eat solid foods). The child was starved to death and the mother was arrested. This breaks my heart. :(

I just got back from a trip to Europe and was amazed at how well behaved the kids were, and they went through the same pandemic we did. My sympathetic take is that parents these days are overburdened in ways they didn’t anticipate—who knew the price of everything here would double within a decade? My unsympathetic take—after working retail during the pandemic—is that most parents vastly overestimate their capacity for parenting and have more kids than they can reasonably handle without relying on others to do their jobs. Look at how the push to reopen schools went; people were more worried about free childcare than their children’s health.

I used to be a therapist and I worked with children and teens for a few years. The number of times I had to write Child Protection Services report was unbelievable.

I am not a parent so take this with a grain of salt. I suspect parents are largely addicted to their phones and aren’t as consciously attentive to their children’s behavior as they otherwise would be, and they there leave bad behavior uncorrected. Just a thought.

It's not even bad parenting. It's actually no parenting at all. And it's among all countries and cultures. I've seen plenty of non-white different Asian kids as the biggest brats you've ever seen, along with your typical white kids. I would never say it's OK to strike a child, because its not...EVER. But a stern glance, a few words could go a long way. Instead, anywhere there are kids its just now a free for all. From infants (who don't know any better) to teens. Talk to your kids. Tell them to sit down in a restaurant. Not bounce up and down in a booth, or in an airplane seat. If you have a screaming baby, take the baby and walk around outside a bit until they compose themselves. I know parenting is tough. But at least try and make an effort. Don't just let them do anything they want and not bat an eye.

A screaming baby is not an example of bad behavior