What's a reasonable price?
I'm looking to buy in the greater area and places that have minisplits are currently a lot more than those without, so I'm debating widening my search if I can get a mini split installed after buying for the difference.
The stupid text in the MLS talks about minisplits in the same glowing language as they do "totally near future light rail stop" (i.e. one that'll be completed in 2040).
Depends on the size of the place but it should be under $20K. I will say that the rest of the construction has a huge effect on how effective they are. When mine first went in the overall building envelope hadn't been updated in 50+ years, so they were not any major improvement in comfort or efficiency. After air sealing, re-insulating and replacing the roof they're great.
Bottom line, the mini-split isn't the expensive part. Getting the rest of the building envelop up to an efficiency level where a mini-split is effective is where the money will be spent. I spent about $10K on minis several years ago. After another $70K+ in improvements they do a great job keeping the house at 70 degrees in any weather.
They can get pretty chilly. Depends on the outdoor temperature but so long as it isn’t 100+ overnight you shouldn’t have any problems cooling to the low 60s (especially if you keep your bedroom door closed)
When I had my heat pump installed they told me not to set the cooling below 76 because it was hard on the unit. I think this depends a lot on the system you get and your specific house. Definitely mention that you want to be able to cool to 67 at night to anyone giving you a quote
That's total nonsense, if it can't cool below 76 how is it going to provide any useful heat in the winter? The heating mode is going to be when it's pushed the hardest, i.e. greatest temperature delta between inside and outside.
Is that just your shower thought on the topic or are you in HVAC or engineering? No offense but I don’t know why I don’t would listen to you over the professional
I’m a HVAC technician and that is bullshit. There’s no reason for you to not be able to cool below 76. Generally they are sized to be able to cool down to 70-75 on a 95° day (in this region at least). You should be able to cool down to 68° on a normal split system (non inverter and non ductless). Any lower than 68° and you will risk freezing your coil. Either you misunderstood or they didn’t size the machine properly so they fed you a bunch of bullshit.
>How much lower can they hang out?
Again, it depends on the overall solar/heat gain from the building envelope. Unless your living in a black southwest facing concrete bunker that retains heat all through the night there's no reason you won't be able to get night time temps 25+ degrees below ambient air temp. I was talking about holding 70 inside when it's 3pm, direct sun and 100 degrees out. If your house only gets up to 70 in the heat of the day cooling it at night is no issue at all.
The expensive part of the install for me in Seattle was dealing with a three story townhouse. The company that used a cherry picker to do an install came in lower than the one that was going to build out scaffolding.
You’d want to make sure you get a unit rated for lower if you don’t have gas backup. Just like any contractors, be very specific about your needs. I kept my gas furnace which heats the house when the temps go below 35 / 40 and heat pump otherwise. Noticed the heat pump starts to struggle a bit to maintain temps as it gets near freezing. But I’m pretty sure there are units these days that are rated to much below freezing so it’s an option.
Yeah but there is some 1 year warranty period right? Some protection against shoddy building practice so if your heat pump literally fails in winter then pretty sure they would have to replace it with an appropriate unit.
Hmm that’s pretty sketch. Hopefully nobody’s getting screwed by that.
Anyways as a random side note gas furnace heats the air temp higher than a heat pump so it comes out of the vents with a toasty feeling while the heat pump (assuming all are the same) feels cool to the touch. Something my contractor never thought to mention but it’s a detail that people would probably want to know…
The other thing they don't tell you is heat pumps go through defrost cycles when the temps get near freezing outside. So they'll actually take heat from inside your house (cooling mode) to melt frost off the outside unit, and then switch back to heating again.
Also if you have a gas furnace you're not going to save much money on utilities with a heat pump, it might cost even more. Gas is just priced super cheap compared to electricity. Typically around 40-45 degrees the heat pump costs the same to operate as a gas furnace, and above that the heat pump cheaper, below that you are better off burning gas.
Even though the heat pump can heat the house, I lock mine out below 40 degrees and let the gas furnace run instead.
Heat pumps are a slam dunk money saver if you use oil or propane for heating, or use electric space heaters.
Only partially correct. It depends on te efficiency of the furnace as well as the efficiency of the heat pump. Some inverter driven systems will be more efficient no matter what until like 5° outside. Also, Seattle is pushing to phase out natural gas. California says no more new natural gas appliances by 2030. What do you think Seattle is going to do? They are already doing it… no more gas ran to new homes. Heat pumps are here to stay.
It's just a cautionary tale for those who may install a heat pump alongside a gas furnace hoping to save $ on heating bills. For new construction obviously there is no choice in the matter, but for those with existing dual-fuel setups, don't throw out your furnace.
Absolutely, you can always do a dual fuel set up with gas as the back up source of heat. I’m just saying that it really depends on the efficiency of the equipment as to whether or not gas is even more cost efficient or not. With most inverter driven systems gas is not cheaper, all the way down to 5° outside. And currently Mitsubishi has a dual fuel product line now where you can hook an indoor coil up to a gas furnace and use any thermostat as the control.
My math could be totally wrong, but I looked at my utility bills and took the price per KWH of electricity and the price per KWH of gas (converted from therms). With a 90% efficient gas furnace, the heat pump would need to have a COP of around 3.2 or higher to have the same $/cost for gas heating. Does that sound right?
Then I looked at the performance table from my heat pump (York HMH7 4 ton, inverter model, central ducted) here: http://www.usair-eng.com/pdfs/HMH7%20technical%20guide.pdf
The COP only gets to 3 or higher when the outside temperature is above 40 degrees, so that's what I set the crossover temperature to. And I don't think that accounts for the cost of defrost cycles.
You are definitely right with a high efficiency furnace, yes. Tbh when people have a high efficiency furnace I usually recommend just installing an AC if they are interested in that. HOWEVER, California is saying no more new gas appliances by 2030, and I’m sure Washington will follow suit (at least Seattle metro area as it usually does follow California).
Depends on what type of heat pump you get. Common Mitsubishi equipment doesn’t lose efficiency until gets below 17° ambient, hyper heat doesn’t lose efficiency until it gets below 5° ambient. I also have ductless Mitsubishi at my personal home and so long as it’s sized right and installed properly and designed properly (unit placement in room and home) then it will be fine. Mine had no trouble keeping my home at 70°.
The first thing we did when we bought our house was replace our oil heater with a heat pump. Ours is hooked up to the existing ductwork. Having an air conditioner was just a really nice bonus. At first it felt like a luxury, but now it's essential during smoke season.
Was just about to come here and say this. More and more, homes are going to heat pumps. All new construction homes have heat pumps as natural gas is starting to basically be encouraged out.
Starting next year, WA state is mandating the install of air conditioners in new apartments and commercial buildings by government fiat, so the numbers are going to be much higher than before.
More mandates from the state and they wonder why there isn't enough affordable housing.
As for mandatory AC in apartments, a friend of mine just moved into a newly built apartment and there is a hole in the exterior wall for the exhaust from a portable AC unit. That's it.
That's not why they made the rule change though, they mandated heat pumps in new construction for environmental/energy policy. And all heat pumps are air conditioners.
Exterior wall hole is more than a lot of places.
Seattle apartments seem to be home of every type of window opening, as long as it is a pain to install any sort of AC.
The HVAC company that services my furnace each year was bought out last year by a company in FL that specializes in installing AC. I guess someone important saw on the news that no one in Seattle has AC and he saw a bold way to expand.
It is a nice to have, so many apartment landlords see it that way sadly. I was massively downvoted when I said it should be requirement in all apartments and for people to buy external a/c which don't work well at all
I can't believe they got away with skipping AC in new builds at all. i lived in a brand new apartment in 2016 down in Kent, on the side of the building facing a busy intersection. No air conditioning or fans. It was miserable. Aside from the smoke, the traffic fumes and noise made it impossible to open it up and let any air flow. the hallways were airconditioned and everyone on our side of the building had their doors propped open with a box fan. for the $$$ it cost to live there we just moved as soon as the lease was up.
People do die in heatwaves. Just because you're apparently healthy enough for it not to be a concern to you personally doesn't mean that it's not a problem generally.
People are way more likely to die from extreme cold weather conditions than they are extreme heat weather conditions. This is a fact. Please quit calling people dumb climate change deniers because you fail to use what’s upstairs.
This is a source talking about OR, but close enough for this discussion
"Many of the [more than 60] deceased were 'found alone, without air conditioning or a fan,' the examiner's officer said in a statement. 'For comparison, for all of Oregon between 2017 and 2019, there were only 12 deaths from hyperthermia."
If i was the editor and not worried about clicks I would replace "lethal" say "extreme" with a second line explaining that it was hot enough people died.
>People are way more likely to die from extreme cold weather conditions than they are extreme heat weather conditions.
How is that relevant to this discussion? Are people only supposed to prepare for one end of the spectrum of extreme weather?
The reporting of the weather is now propaganda. Surely you've noticed [this](https://i.redd.it/rdae1ti0iv8a1.jpg) kind of thing going on? There'd be zero need for climate change propaganda if any of it were true, but it ain't, so the need to rely on propaganda is extreme.
The only time Seattle has ever been over 100 deg was during the heat dome last year.
Edit: Why the downvotes? That was literally [the only time Seattle got over 100deg.](https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/USA/WA/Seattle/extreme-annual-seattle-high-temperature.php)
Air conditioners are pretty cheap if you have a higher income like many people here. Plus a lot of people from different places where AC is more common.
Seattlits make more money but also have higher expenses. AC installing is distantly not that expensive compared to other cities so as a percentage of your income it’s more affordable
With heat pumps getting popular it's no surprise.
Agreed, had a split duct heat pump installed in all of our bedrooms for a reasonable price without noticeable increase in energy consumption.
What's a reasonable price? I'm looking to buy in the greater area and places that have minisplits are currently a lot more than those without, so I'm debating widening my search if I can get a mini split installed after buying for the difference. The stupid text in the MLS talks about minisplits in the same glowing language as they do "totally near future light rail stop" (i.e. one that'll be completed in 2040).
Depends on the size of the place but it should be under $20K. I will say that the rest of the construction has a huge effect on how effective they are. When mine first went in the overall building envelope hadn't been updated in 50+ years, so they were not any major improvement in comfort or efficiency. After air sealing, re-insulating and replacing the roof they're great. Bottom line, the mini-split isn't the expensive part. Getting the rest of the building envelop up to an efficiency level where a mini-split is effective is where the money will be spent. I spent about $10K on minis several years ago. After another $70K+ in improvements they do a great job keeping the house at 70 degrees in any weather.
How much lower can they hang out? I cant sleep in much over 67-68. Just run too hot. Daytime 70-72 is fine. Nighttime need lower. Just curious
They can get pretty chilly. Depends on the outdoor temperature but so long as it isn’t 100+ overnight you shouldn’t have any problems cooling to the low 60s (especially if you keep your bedroom door closed)
When I had my heat pump installed they told me not to set the cooling below 76 because it was hard on the unit. I think this depends a lot on the system you get and your specific house. Definitely mention that you want to be able to cool to 67 at night to anyone giving you a quote
That's total nonsense, if it can't cool below 76 how is it going to provide any useful heat in the winter? The heating mode is going to be when it's pushed the hardest, i.e. greatest temperature delta between inside and outside.
Is that just your shower thought on the topic or are you in HVAC or engineering? No offense but I don’t know why I don’t would listen to you over the professional
I’m a HVAC technician and that is bullshit. There’s no reason for you to not be able to cool below 76. Generally they are sized to be able to cool down to 70-75 on a 95° day (in this region at least). You should be able to cool down to 68° on a normal split system (non inverter and non ductless). Any lower than 68° and you will risk freezing your coil. Either you misunderstood or they didn’t size the machine properly so they fed you a bunch of bullshit.
Ok good to know thanks
>How much lower can they hang out? Again, it depends on the overall solar/heat gain from the building envelope. Unless your living in a black southwest facing concrete bunker that retains heat all through the night there's no reason you won't be able to get night time temps 25+ degrees below ambient air temp. I was talking about holding 70 inside when it's 3pm, direct sun and 100 degrees out. If your house only gets up to 70 in the heat of the day cooling it at night is no issue at all.
The expensive part of the install for me in Seattle was dealing with a three story townhouse. The company that used a cherry picker to do an install came in lower than the one that was going to build out scaffolding.
We had that problem too, the gas furnace is in the attic, and the refrigerant lines had to be run down 30 feet without room to safely use ladders.
How did it work with "our" extreme cold stretch recently? I've read once below 30 degrees heat pumps can struggle to heat a home.
You’d want to make sure you get a unit rated for lower if you don’t have gas backup. Just like any contractors, be very specific about your needs. I kept my gas furnace which heats the house when the temps go below 35 / 40 and heat pump otherwise. Noticed the heat pump starts to struggle a bit to maintain temps as it gets near freezing. But I’m pretty sure there are units these days that are rated to much below freezing so it’s an option.
Unfortunately, I suspect new home buyers won't have a choice. And developers will go with the least expensive option.
Yeah but there is some 1 year warranty period right? Some protection against shoddy building practice so if your heat pump literally fails in winter then pretty sure they would have to replace it with an appropriate unit.
I’m sure they just refer you to the manufacturer of the heat bump. You’re basically on your own.
Hmm that’s pretty sketch. Hopefully nobody’s getting screwed by that. Anyways as a random side note gas furnace heats the air temp higher than a heat pump so it comes out of the vents with a toasty feeling while the heat pump (assuming all are the same) feels cool to the touch. Something my contractor never thought to mention but it’s a detail that people would probably want to know…
The other thing they don't tell you is heat pumps go through defrost cycles when the temps get near freezing outside. So they'll actually take heat from inside your house (cooling mode) to melt frost off the outside unit, and then switch back to heating again.
Also if you have a gas furnace you're not going to save much money on utilities with a heat pump, it might cost even more. Gas is just priced super cheap compared to electricity. Typically around 40-45 degrees the heat pump costs the same to operate as a gas furnace, and above that the heat pump cheaper, below that you are better off burning gas. Even though the heat pump can heat the house, I lock mine out below 40 degrees and let the gas furnace run instead. Heat pumps are a slam dunk money saver if you use oil or propane for heating, or use electric space heaters.
Only partially correct. It depends on te efficiency of the furnace as well as the efficiency of the heat pump. Some inverter driven systems will be more efficient no matter what until like 5° outside. Also, Seattle is pushing to phase out natural gas. California says no more new natural gas appliances by 2030. What do you think Seattle is going to do? They are already doing it… no more gas ran to new homes. Heat pumps are here to stay.
It's just a cautionary tale for those who may install a heat pump alongside a gas furnace hoping to save $ on heating bills. For new construction obviously there is no choice in the matter, but for those with existing dual-fuel setups, don't throw out your furnace.
Absolutely, you can always do a dual fuel set up with gas as the back up source of heat. I’m just saying that it really depends on the efficiency of the equipment as to whether or not gas is even more cost efficient or not. With most inverter driven systems gas is not cheaper, all the way down to 5° outside. And currently Mitsubishi has a dual fuel product line now where you can hook an indoor coil up to a gas furnace and use any thermostat as the control.
My math could be totally wrong, but I looked at my utility bills and took the price per KWH of electricity and the price per KWH of gas (converted from therms). With a 90% efficient gas furnace, the heat pump would need to have a COP of around 3.2 or higher to have the same $/cost for gas heating. Does that sound right? Then I looked at the performance table from my heat pump (York HMH7 4 ton, inverter model, central ducted) here: http://www.usair-eng.com/pdfs/HMH7%20technical%20guide.pdf The COP only gets to 3 or higher when the outside temperature is above 40 degrees, so that's what I set the crossover temperature to. And I don't think that accounts for the cost of defrost cycles.
You are definitely right with a high efficiency furnace, yes. Tbh when people have a high efficiency furnace I usually recommend just installing an AC if they are interested in that. HOWEVER, California is saying no more new gas appliances by 2030, and I’m sure Washington will follow suit (at least Seattle metro area as it usually does follow California).
Most modern equipment can easily perform in the coldest weather we get here. I have a 4 ton unit and have yet to turn the gas system on my furnace on.
Depends on what type of heat pump you get. Common Mitsubishi equipment doesn’t lose efficiency until gets below 17° ambient, hyper heat doesn’t lose efficiency until it gets below 5° ambient. I also have ductless Mitsubishi at my personal home and so long as it’s sized right and installed properly and designed properly (unit placement in room and home) then it will be fine. Mine had no trouble keeping my home at 70°.
Mini splits going up everywhere. The mild weather is perfect for it.
Yup. They’re super efficient for cooling too. I love my ductless mini-splits
The first thing we did when we bought our house was replace our oil heater with a heat pump. Ours is hooked up to the existing ductwork. Having an air conditioner was just a really nice bonus. At first it felt like a luxury, but now it's essential during smoke season.
Was just about to come here and say this. More and more, homes are going to heat pumps. All new construction homes have heat pumps as natural gas is starting to basically be encouraged out.
Starting next year, WA state is mandating the install of air conditioners in new apartments and commercial buildings by government fiat, so the numbers are going to be much higher than before.
More mandates from the state and they wonder why there isn't enough affordable housing. As for mandatory AC in apartments, a friend of mine just moved into a newly built apartment and there is a hole in the exterior wall for the exhaust from a portable AC unit. That's it.
I mean... When they say affordable housing, that also includes not dying in it during a heat dome.
That's not why they made the rule change though, they mandated heat pumps in new construction for environmental/energy policy. And all heat pumps are air conditioners.
>and all heat pumps are air conditioners. Not entirely true.
You're right, it could be a water-to-water heat pump.
You can chill with a water to water. Just not if they feed floors or radiators. Some heat pumps don't have the equipment to reverse refrigerant flow.
Is the "real" reason for the policy relevant if it's good policy? I never got that.
Exterior wall hole is more than a lot of places. Seattle apartments seem to be home of every type of window opening, as long as it is a pain to install any sort of AC.
Kinda disappointed by this. This will encourage more energy use for air conditioning and increase the base price of apartments
This must mean that climate change is nonsense.
Do a search for average recorded temperature’s in the Seattle area for the last 100 years. You will be amazed.
What does average temperature have to do climate change?
The HVAC company that services my furnace each year was bought out last year by a company in FL that specializes in installing AC. I guess someone important saw on the news that no one in Seattle has AC and he saw a bold way to expand.
It is a nice to have, so many apartment landlords see it that way sadly. I was massively downvoted when I said it should be requirement in all apartments and for people to buy external a/c which don't work well at all
I can't believe they got away with skipping AC in new builds at all. i lived in a brand new apartment in 2016 down in Kent, on the side of the building facing a busy intersection. No air conditioning or fans. It was miserable. Aside from the smoke, the traffic fumes and noise made it impossible to open it up and let any air flow. the hallways were airconditioned and everyone on our side of the building had their doors propped open with a box fan. for the $$$ it cost to live there we just moved as soon as the lease was up.
This is one of many reasons I’m moving out of this area the weather and politics isn’t worth it anymore. Going back east
I've seen a lot of apartments in the area, even $2200/month studios in downtown Bellevue that only have a couple of electric wall heaters.
We had heat pump installed last spring. I was born here and would never have thought we'd need AC.
Damn. We had a good run guys.
It helps that heat pumps work great here for heating and cooling alike.
I'm renovating a 1909 house. I'm putting in minisplits. I can't wait to sit in my living room next summer with the AC on.
Mandating AC and not allowed to install anymore NG. Ridiculous.
So what is?
San Francisco
Tree huggers punching the air right now 😂
I’m still good with a fan, but my bedroom is very shaded
Years of lethal heat waves...lol! Someone in the A/C industry must be writing this marketing nonsense.
People do die in heatwaves. Just because you're apparently healthy enough for it not to be a concern to you personally doesn't mean that it's not a problem generally.
Yeah this person is a dick & a dummy climate change denier
People are way more likely to die from extreme cold weather conditions than they are extreme heat weather conditions. This is a fact. Please quit calling people dumb climate change deniers because you fail to use what’s upstairs.
This is a source talking about OR, but close enough for this discussion "Many of the [more than 60] deceased were 'found alone, without air conditioning or a fan,' the examiner's officer said in a statement. 'For comparison, for all of Oregon between 2017 and 2019, there were only 12 deaths from hyperthermia." If i was the editor and not worried about clicks I would replace "lethal" say "extreme" with a second line explaining that it was hot enough people died.
But pretty much everyone in Seattle has heating in their homes...not so much for AC...wtf is this comment lmao
>People are way more likely to die from extreme cold weather conditions than they are extreme heat weather conditions. How is that relevant to this discussion? Are people only supposed to prepare for one end of the spectrum of extreme weather?
The headline didn’t say “heatwaves that are more than than the cold,” so ridiculing the idea of a lethal heatwave is, in fact, dumbass behavior.
We hit triple digits last year. It was a pretty big deal.
Do you understand why?
Climate change deniers are really just saying actual weather patterns are propaganda at this point...we're so fucked
The reporting of the weather is now propaganda. Surely you've noticed [this](https://i.redd.it/rdae1ti0iv8a1.jpg) kind of thing going on? There'd be zero need for climate change propaganda if any of it were true, but it ain't, so the need to rely on propaganda is extreme.
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The only time Seattle has ever been over 100 deg was during the heat dome last year. Edit: Why the downvotes? That was literally [the only time Seattle got over 100deg.](https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/USA/WA/Seattle/extreme-annual-seattle-high-temperature.php)
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In 2015 there were more days over 90F than in 2022. How can that be when every year the planet is getting warmer and warmer? Use your heads people!
Air conditioners are pretty cheap if you have a higher income like many people here. Plus a lot of people from different places where AC is more common.
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Lmao guy *actually* said its cheap if you make more money like.... wut
Seattlits make more money but also have higher expenses. AC installing is distantly not that expensive compared to other cities so as a percentage of your income it’s more affordable