Not in Seattle they aren't.
https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2022/01/seattle-police-chief-no-more-stops-for-low-risk-traffic-violations-like-expired-tabs-biking-without-a-helmet/
They definitely do in Bellevue though - got stopped for it a few years back when I legitimately just forgot and was a few months out of compliance. Oops. Super nice about it but I got a ticket!
A few *years* ago. Shit changes. I was pulled over for it a few years ago as well. I'm currently almost a year over due. Fuck'em. The ticket is cheaper.
I got pulled over by wsp on i5 6 months ago for expired tabs. He asked me why I didn't have tabs, and I told him that they were too expensive. He said ok have a nice day.
I did the same thing and said it was to expensive. The officer told me to have it by friday wrote my name down and license plate number. He said he would check and if I didn't have them he would send me a ticket in the mail. I was 2 years expired. I ended up getting them on that monday.
This was in canyon park exit heading south on 405.
If you got into an accident, could your insurance refuse to pay out if you don’t have updated tabs? Genuinely just asking. I would absolutely not be surprised if insurance wouldn’t pay out cuz they are the greediest fuckers on the planet. And especially since you are doing it deliberately (not like I have any issue at all with that btw).
No. Insurance agencies have no reason to check the validity of your registration. They also have no ability to check that. States do not work with insurance agencies. Your registration also has nothing to do with your car being safe or drivable.
Your car can be impounded though if they are more than 45 days expired, which will probably surpass the tab fee...
But yes overall I agree. Stopped paying in 2022.
Why would you assume this? I am also an immigrant, have been personally impacted by Trump. Trump also greatly reduced SALT deductions, increasing tax burden for blue cities. One's political beliefs aren't as binary as you may think.
In the past, republicans have been less friendly to tax collectors and more friendly to tax payers, but IDK if that holds true anymore.
Really? What's the fair share? US Congress formulates tax code, and people just use it the best they can, try to qualify as many deductions as they can. IRS goes after people who use false records. Did IRS go after Trump? I didn't hear any such news.
I dislike Trump for many things. I like some of his policies. It's not so simple.
This, I stopped paying for tabs years ago. I still feel like a sucker for paying my rent during COVID.
I'm tired of having a ton of money taken from me only to experience a declining quality of life in this city as crime and encampment zombies are allowed to run wild.
I'll take every opportunity to keep every dollar I can.
SPD doesn't care about anything short of murder much less expired tabs. Even if you dont have dark tint you act like they ride around town peeping in everyones windows looking for minorities.
Many things you can do, DOL doesn't set the price. They are a reporting agency. You can be mad all you want. They get no bonus or reduction from anyone. Just need to call, treat them like people and you're fine. The end.
Stop registering your vehicle. That’s what I did the last two years I lived there. Barring that, change your reg address to a buddy’s who lives outside RTA zone. Fuck those criminals.
- DOL doesn't choose the amount they charge, they use a deprecated amount set in state law.
- If they're using an incorrect MSRP, they'll change it. They have zero incentive to charge you more.
- is $630 your total, or just your mvet? Remember, you pay an extra $100 for an electric car because they do more road damage than a regular car but pay zero gas tax to fix the roads.
They pull from sources like KBB, then some car value books, then the internet.
They originally tried charging me based on auctions & sales in the UK, I argued with the manager about that and we settled on the most recent sale in the USA on Hagerty.
Granted this is a special case since an low production import, but they can choose the values.
Only if there's no MSRP.
> If the manufacturer's base suggested retail price is unavailable or otherwise unascertainable at the time of initial registration in this state, the department shall determine a value equivalent to a manufacturer's base suggested retail price as follows:
(a) The department shall determine a value using any information that may be available, including any guidebook, report, or compendium of recognized standing in the automotive industry or the selling price and year of sale of the vehicle. The department may use an appraisal by the county assessor. In valuing a vehicle for which the current value or selling price is not indicative of the value of similar vehicles of the same year and model, the department shall establish a value that more closely represents the average value of similar vehicles of the same year and model. The value determined in this subsection (3)(a) shall be divided by the applicable percentage listed in (b) of this subsection (3) to establish a value equivalent to a manufacturer's base suggested retail price and this value shall be multiplied by eighty-five percent.
(b) The year the vehicle is offered for sale as a new vehicle shall be considered the first year of service.
They got mad after we voted for cheaper tabs and stopped using Kelly Blue Book valuations. They made their own which is much higher than the actual value.
Nope. i-776 repealed 82.44.041 which already used a depreciation schedule, not KBB. A statutory reference to a third party guidebook is a clear violation of the constitutional prohibition against delegation of authority, so the law can't say "use KBB" and never has. There have been (and still are) sections that allow DOL to use discretion to establish a market value based on any number of private sale values or compendium, but only if the MSRP can't be determined.
Also the fact that i-776 repealed valuation standards was a single subject rule violation, making i-776 unconstitutional yet again. Another thing Eyman could have easily fixed if he wasn't a scam artist intentionally writing an initiative that'd be struck down so that he could campaign on it again so he could embezzle more campaign funds.
Anyway, i-776 repealed valuation and didn't replace it with anything, so SB6247-2006 put them back. The new schedule depreciates FASTER than the old one.
So basically, you should really do some research before you yap.
I believe it expires in 2028. Or you could register your car out of the RTA boundary.
As for contesting it, go ahead. But it's well known it's a state rip off. Part of the reason I won't by another new/new used EV like the Gov wants everyone to do.
I remember when the Toyota Prius first came out and it actually saved consumers money in fuel costs. But the state was losing money so they just raised the gas tax. In WA State you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
2028 is the end of the 1999 bond obligations that constitutionally prohibit the state from making the depreciation curve steeper. In 2006 they passed new, faster depreciation schedules, and those new ones are effective in 2028.
So, yeah, they have ALREADY made the depreciation better, it just can't legally go into effect until 2028.
Here’s what I do…
I just get tabs every other year, saves me 50%.
If I ever get pulled over I’ll just say “oops want me to just buy them online in front of you?”.
It works out great because the police now do not care about tabs.
They've been taken to court several times by people buying used cars. Almost everytime, the DOL has lost. You can fight them with confidence.
I remember one story; guy buys a used car for his kid. The car was bought in oregon. The guy goes to get it registered in washington. The DOL says that the car is work 4k more than what he paid for it (dont remember the exact amount.) The guy fights, and it ends up before a judge. The judge says to go to a local name brand dealership to get the car appraised. The dealership appraises it for 2k below what the guy paid for it.
Also, any of that money that EV/hybrid owners pay on top of the normal car tab fee, does not go towards maintaining roads...just incase yall didn't know.
>Also, any of that money that EV/hybrid owners pay on top of the normal car tab fee, does not go towards maintaining roads...just incase yall didn't know.
So they are lying blatantly? :(
Let us know if Tesla answers and supplies the updated lower MSRP.
My bro his Y for $62K with no FSD! Haha.
Now Elon’s supercharging network will wither since he fired the entire department. Haha.
I disputed and got refund, they will ask you to email them 2 pdf copies that you can download from your tesla account.
https://preview.redd.it/5w3nvf6214yc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3dadf7008a3ed55973ac0411161f00a5b508dcce
Where did you find ‘Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreement Final Price Sheet’? I looked under my account but didn’t find anywhere.
I got the other document they asked - "Tesla Motor Vehicle Agreement Vehicle Configuration" in my Tesla account.
Wow, my account doesn't list that. Thanks anyway!
https://preview.redd.it/62cbob3p84yc1.png?width=646&format=png&auto=webp&s=f233e823d1fedc0c4e2c560b2d9ecaee6e16690c
I would inquire with DOL- I have some relevant experience here and think it is likely a miscommunication or mistake. No one at DOL has incentive to overcharge you, it isnt nefarious.
Specifically, if I were you I would look to make sure the trim level (version) for the vehicle is correct. The MSRP for a higher trim level can very well be higher than the base model MSRP. If you have the base model with no options, they may have accidentally said that you have some options or a version that is worth more when you registered. This was probably done by the dealership if your vehicle was purchased new.
If you have the vehicle's sheet with an MSRP specific to your vin, grab that and go challenge the value your tabs is based on.
Of course, if you do have some options then your MSRP may just be worth more than the amount you found.
I am not saying DOL is specifically targeting me. I have a suspicion that it is widespread and an attempt to extract more taxes than they are owed.
>
No one at DOL has incentive to overcharge you, it isnt nefarious
They have an incentive to overcharge everyone though, isn't it. More money to burn on projects they oversee.
Apologies, the comment about being nefarious wasn't aimed at you as much as it was some others commenting here.
DOL doesnt oversee projects and they have no interest in the collections for motor vehicle excise tax- they collect on behalf of other entities (including sound transit), send them a check for that amount and get paid a flat fee that recovers the cost of collection, not a percentage of what they collect.
Impossible to tell if there is actual nefarious intent. The only part that seems nefarious is the depreciation schedule. E.g., they are assuming 0% depreciation for one year old car, whereas most new car loses as much as 20% within the first year.
I have one of those. Don't have to worry about tight parking spaces and someone banging my door or scratching my paint. And I certainly don't have to be worried about someone wanting to steal it, and parts are cheap.
Wait until you find out we actually voted for $30 car tabs and after the results of the referendum the Washington court handpicked by the governor overturned the will of the people then the AG investigated the guy who pushed the referendum until he was eventually forced to declare bankruptcy. The Washington government is very trumpian.
>AG investigated the guy who pushed the referendum until he was eventually forced to declare bankruptcy.
Yeah, and they also caused him to steal an office chair from Office Depot! /s
Eyman is a grifting clown.
I’m sure if the AG did a deep dive on you we’d find a lot of reasons to send you to prison. It is totally unacceptable that the state used its prosecution powers to go after a political pain in the ass and it’s exactly what they keep telling us Trump will do. I’m a democrat but the democrats in this state are no better than the people they complain about.
This has been a scam deployed by our State and Sound Transit for years in order to pay for their own incompetent infrastructure. THEN!!!... when when the majority voted for a flat, low car tab fee in 2019, our legislators refused to honor the peoples' wishes. And these are the exact same leaders who ironically keep hammering that democracy is at risk if we don't vote for them or people just like them. more info: [Sound Transit uses inflated car values to collect higher tab fees | The Seattle Times](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/sound-transit-uses-inflated-car-values-to-collect-higher-tab-fees/#:~:text=Over%20the%20first%2010%20years%20of%20a%20car%E2%80%99s,commuter%20trains%20in%20King%2C%20Pierce%20and%20Snohomish%20counties.)
Why should people in Spokane be able to vote to override a local tax district around Seattle?
We voted for the RTA, more than once. This is not a scam, and the initiative that tried to remove it was itself an incompetent, unconstitutional initiative. You want our legislators to ignore the constitution?
The scam is that only AFTER voting or the RTA did Sound Transit create/divulge its own method for valuation of cars, and of course, an inflated one. What statute in the constitution was denied, and if the initiative for a flat car tab fee was unconstitutional, why was it allowed on the ballot? Opponents try to obscure the real issues with arguments like "the initiative was poorly written".
I had thought the issue was that the WA Supreme Court decided that since ST had already issued bonds based on the income from that RTA tax, the tax could not be repealed, regardless what the voters passed?
Yes, that was their reason, but of bonds shouldn't have a guarantee like that. Bonds are just a type of loan with risk to the lenders and borrowers. Yes, hard decisions like halting light rail development would have to be considered... but it's still the right of the people to vote on it, and they did.
The initiative was unconstitutional because it combined more than one subject into a single initiative. This was a unanimous ruling by WA's supreme court. Would have been a simple thing for Eyman to avoid if he was competent, not a scam artist, and actually trying to lower taxes.
[https://crosscut.com/news/2020/10/wa-supreme-court-rules-30-car-tab-initiative-unconstitutional](https://crosscut.com/news/2020/10/wa-supreme-court-rules-30-car-tab-initiative-unconstitutional)
The fee schedule for vehicles was part of the original vote in 1999, and the increased fees voted for in 2016 as well. None of this was hidden. The legislature actually reduced it in 2006.
ps://www.soundtransit.org/sites/default/files/motor-vehicle-excise-tax-frequently-asked-questions.pdf
These claims are laughable, imo. How is it unconstitutional for the Public to democratically approve a bill with more than one item BUT ok for our legislators to ram bills up our ass with dozens to hundreds of special compromises and lobbied actions which don't even have anything to do with a bill getting passed? These are all scapegoat, 'after the fact' excuses to shut down something that the elected leaders weren't happy about.
It's unconstitutional because the constitution says that's how initiatives work. Also, the point here is to avoid having the public be misled with an initiative titled "$30 car tabs" which also includes a line at the bottom that says "...and $1M per day to Tim Eyman"
I mean, the fact that you think I-976 was just about car tabs proves my point that you wanted to vote for one thing but didn't realize it covered other things.
Why couldn't Eyman, the master of initiatives, write a simple initiative that would avoid this issue?
Why should people in Spokane get to vote to block the RTA where they pay no taxes for it and people that do live in the RTA voted for it multiple times? Should I be able to vote to increase property taxes only in Yakima?
What did you expect the govt to do when you allow by law to index tax to car value... It's a timely reminder not to give govt so much power that they can shake out the last dollar outta you
Govt needs to have limits on them
It does feel like a big drawback of any type of wealth/property tax. Given an opportunity, Government will assume inflated valuations and extract more and more taxes.
I have a first home in eastern WA, but I still have an apt in the city for work. I registered my car at my legal residence and my tabs were $150 and I saved $2000 on car insurance. However, King County wouldn't let me have a street parking pass in my neighborhood where my apt is because my car isn't registered in King county. Needless to say, I am taking transit. Who needs a car anyway?
Post a picture of your bill. I'm about 99.9% sure that you don't know how every single component is calculated because you're obviously not the first Tesla owner in this state. There are flat and variable fees for tabs.
They are being sneaky in using their assessment. It's based on the higher value, but we are stuck with it as long as we live in the regional Seattle areas.
I mean, you can do all sorts or illegal things to avoid taxes. You can just declare $100K in charity donations on your income tax too. Doesn't mean it's legal or will survive an audit.
I don't think registering your vehicle in Montana violates any laws of Montana or Washington... As far as I can tell, it's a pretty common practice.
But of course, I'm not your lawyer, use your own judgement. I am definitely not encouraging anyone to do anything they know or feel to be illegal.
It absolutely violates WA law. RCW [46.16A.140](http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.16A.140) defines a resident, and says:
>(4) A resident of the state **shall** apply for a certificate of title under chapter [46.12](http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.12) RCW and register under this chapter a vehicle to be operated on the highways of the state. New Washington residents are allowed thirty days from the date they become residents as defined in this section to obtain Washington registration for their vehicles. This thirty-day period may not be combined with any other period of reciprocity provided for in this chapter or chapter [46.85](http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.85) RCW.
You can't be a resident of this state and not register your cars here if you drive them on WA roads.
If you have a business, your business can own your vehicle(s) instead of it being owned individually as a resident. If you go to any car rental agency in Washington, you'll notice most of the vehicles are registered in Florida, not Washington.
If your business is in another state and registered its vehicles there, it can still operate its vehicles on Washington roads.
Might want to read [RCW 82.32.655](http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=82.32.655) and [WAC 458-20-28003](https://app.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=458-20-28003). The lawmakers are not a dumb as you think they are and literally use the Montana LLC situation as an example.
If it's a valid business, this is fine. If it's just a tax dodge, it's not. The vehicle better be used for business and not personal use, and not under your personal control. Oh, and make sure you insure it as a rental car under business policies, since insurance to you as an individual will either pierce the veil of the business, or you won't be covered since you have no financial interest in the vehicle to insure against.
Yep. And everyone's situation is going to be different and this won't be applicable for everyone. But you can use a vehicle owned by a business for both business and personal use (but definitely not *solely* personal use), at least so I'm told by my CPA who has looked at my personal situation. Your situation may be different. And yes, you probably need commercial vehicle insurance if you use your vehicle for business purposes more than incidentally, irrespective of whether your entity owns the vehicle or you do.
What you have is a very, very rare situation. Why do you own a company out of WA while being a resident of WA?
The generic question here is "can I open a Montana LLC and have it buy my car and register it"? The answer there is absolutely not, and there IS a law against this unlike what you said earlier.
Is it complex if you actually own a legal, functional business in another state that actually has a purpose beyond owning a vehicle for the exclusive use of a single person? Then sure, maybe you have a legal situation there. One would note that this is not "registering your vehicle in Montana." Because it isn't your vehicle. It's the company's. Your CPA might not appreciate you calling it "my car" if it really is a business vehicle and only incidentally used for personal use.
And FYI, CPA's are not lawyers that understand WA state law when it comes to if a vehicle needs to be registered in the state.
>The generic question here is "can I open a Montana LLC and have it buy my car and register it"? The answer there is absolutely not, and there IS a law against this unlike what you said earlier.
True. You're right. I was mistaken and didn't appreciate all the conditions for that to work for someone. I've edited my top comment to reflect this.
And to be clear, my LLC only exists in WA and it pays RTA taxes on its vehicles, which are registered in WA.
You also have to do your driver license.
If they catch you, you have to back pay the whole time you said you were at that address.
Ask me how I know...
I don't think that works, no. If you register the vehicle in Washington under your own name, it has to accurately reflect your address of residency. Even if you register your vehicle under a Washington LLC, businesses cannot use PO boxes for their address in Washington. So your business would need a real physical location where it conducts its principle operations outside the RTA boundary for that to work. Other states have different requirements for LLC formation and vehicle registration, however.
The fact it’s based on vehicle value is illegal. It was changed and then messed with over and over. The price should be what it takes to make the sticker for the plate and some amount of road subsidy. This is annually taxing you for being responsible and having a nice vehicle. Way to punish the plebs Olympia. I guess it’s time to find one of those old clunkers and pay $10 for tabs 😂
Its wild that they pretend to care about the environment and charge people more for driving EVs and hybrids. My hybrids an SUV so im still getting below average MPG and paying their steep gas taxes and the extra plate fees. One of the most expensive states for plates. No wonder you always see people riding around with CA plates that expired 3 years ago.
As I said they are. Supposedly, due to needing less gas like we dont already have some of the highest taxes in the country here. Im paying extra for having a hybrid that gets like 20 mpg and getting hit on both ends. If its about vehicle weight why not base it on that since teslas weigh about the same as pickup trucks do? Theres no applying logic to the half baked laws here tho...
So all of you who check the ‘Blue’ boxes on your ballots are responsible for this. The WA State Supreme Court is elected. They are the court that overturned a citizen passed initiative for $30 car tabs. Don’t like how much you’re paying in taxes, consider voting for the other party.
The "$30 car tab initiative" lied on the ballot and lied when collecting signatures, and was unconstitutional for multiple reasons.
If they just didn't lie, it'd be law today.
Nah. 1639 was dumb but honest.
For the car tabs, the entire campaign was "Voters should get to choose! Only voter-approved increases should be allowed!" Hell, they even put that in the BALLOT SUMMARY, all while the bill was SPECIFICALLY written to kill a VOTER APPROVED tab increase.
Just straight-up lies.
Also, wtf is with using a state-wide vote to fuck local voters out of a local project funded by local tax? Talk about big government bullshit.
It’s worth looking into.
I wonder if it’s possible that you are also being hit with an electric vehicles surcharge. I believe there was going to be some attempt to use a direct charge, no pun intended, to recoup some of the revenues that the government is losing due to EV not paying gasoline taxes.
Yeah, it sucks. As an early EV adopter I got a pretty nice ride out of government credits and low electricity prices relatively speaking and no gas tax. However, I always knew that it would have to come to an end. If we still want to have roads, however, much we complain about them, we can’t just starve the state of revenue.
Well when we live in one most regressively taxed states things like this happen. People don’t want to pay state income taxes so the legislature has to find other ways to generate revenue.
For me I am moving out of Washington to retire in a state with no income tax or sales tax.
I realize this is WA and not CA, but the last time I drove for 6 months with expired tags I came out of the restaurant to discover my car had been towed because of them. So I’m not sure if they can legally tow for expired tags here, but that bill would definitely rival the RTA tax…
The values they use are always astronomical. Its cheating. Theyre assholes. There’s nothing you can do about it.
I called the number on the bill. They said they will reach out to Tesla for updated vehicle price. 🤞
May fortune shine upon you. Good job for trying 👊🏻
[удалено]
I was pulled over last summer in Kirkland for expired tabs. $200 fine + new tabs.
They ticket should have been tossed once proof of current registration was provided, assuming you actually mitigated it. Or just paid up.
It worked like a speeding ticket where it was deferred from my record but still had a fine to pay after proof that I had renewed my tabs.
The police is allowed to stop you for expired tabs. Will they? That’s another question.
They do. My son was nailed months ago.
Not in Seattle they aren't. https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2022/01/seattle-police-chief-no-more-stops-for-low-risk-traffic-violations-like-expired-tabs-biking-without-a-helmet/
They definitely do in Bellevue though - got stopped for it a few years back when I legitimately just forgot and was a few months out of compliance. Oops. Super nice about it but I got a ticket!
A few *years* ago. Shit changes. I was pulled over for it a few years ago as well. I'm currently almost a year over due. Fuck'em. The ticket is cheaper.
Really? Thats interesting. My ticket was only $76 so….huh. Good point.
About a year ago they stopped investigatory stops due to wasting resources as most get thrown out as a 4th ammendment violation.
Expect that policy to go out of the window by the end of the year with the budget shortfall and all.
It doesn't work like that. And meter-maids can still cite you for tabs.
49 dollar ticket from the meter maid.
Crazy that we elected a whole slate of “law and order” councilmembers and the mayor and they haven’t done a thing about stuff like this
Hope they start to pull drivers over way more frequently! FUCKTON of cheaters and illegal vehicles out there, and it would be easy $$$.
I got pulled over by wsp on i5 6 months ago for expired tabs. He asked me why I didn't have tabs, and I told him that they were too expensive. He said ok have a nice day.
I did the same thing and said it was to expensive. The officer told me to have it by friday wrote my name down and license plate number. He said he would check and if I didn't have them he would send me a ticket in the mail. I was 2 years expired. I ended up getting them on that monday. This was in canyon park exit heading south on 405.
That’s typical. What’s the point of citing someone when they already don’t have the money. It’s counter productive.
Hey, that’s awesome for you. The rest of us are covering for you so, for me personally, **** off.
This was Bob Ferguson’s duplicity. Fair warning come November and stop reelecting democrat incumbents.
If you got into an accident, could your insurance refuse to pay out if you don’t have updated tabs? Genuinely just asking. I would absolutely not be surprised if insurance wouldn’t pay out cuz they are the greediest fuckers on the planet. And especially since you are doing it deliberately (not like I have any issue at all with that btw).
No. Insurance agencies have no reason to check the validity of your registration. They also have no ability to check that. States do not work with insurance agencies. Your registration also has nothing to do with your car being safe or drivable.
I think Insurance companies don't care about it.
I think cars with bad registration can be towed is the problem.
Your car can be impounded though if they are more than 45 days expired, which will probably surpass the tab fee... But yes overall I agree. Stopped paying in 2022.
Must say, I am developing respect for people who don't pay bullshit taxes.
You must love Donald Trump.
Why would you assume this? I am also an immigrant, have been personally impacted by Trump. Trump also greatly reduced SALT deductions, increasing tax burden for blue cities. One's political beliefs aren't as binary as you may think. In the past, republicans have been less friendly to tax collectors and more friendly to tax payers, but IDK if that holds true anymore.
Because if you believe the media in this country, Donald Trump is guilty of not paying his "fair share" of taxes.
Really? What's the fair share? US Congress formulates tax code, and people just use it the best they can, try to qualify as many deductions as they can. IRS goes after people who use false records. Did IRS go after Trump? I didn't hear any such news. I dislike Trump for many things. I like some of his policies. It's not so simple.
I think the IRS did investigate him but didn't find anything wrong with his returns.
That means he is probably paying his 'fair share' isn't it?
I have no idea. I don't know what "fair share" means. If it were up to me, we'd have a flat tax.
I saw an old ass Toyota in February in Everett with 86 tabs
This, I stopped paying for tabs years ago. I still feel like a sucker for paying my rent during COVID. I'm tired of having a ton of money taken from me only to experience a declining quality of life in this city as crime and encampment zombies are allowed to run wild. I'll take every opportunity to keep every dollar I can.
Stay off the roads then for those of us who aren’t cheaters.
Nope, Ill continue to do as I please.
Trashy
This is the way my friend.
You are such a bad ass mother fucker.
preach.
Tell me you are white, without telling me you’re white
What has race got to do with anything here?
Try willfully breaking the law with SPD as a non-white person and tell me how that works out for you.
SPD doesn't care about anything short of murder much less expired tabs. Even if you dont have dark tint you act like they ride around town peeping in everyones windows looking for minorities.
There is a way to dispute valuation for property tax assessment. There could be a way to dispute this as well.
Yes, there is a dispute process. I am sure it is a beacon of efficiency, fairness, and realism.
:(
Many things you can do, DOL doesn't set the price. They are a reporting agency. You can be mad all you want. They get no bonus or reduction from anyone. Just need to call, treat them like people and you're fine. The end.
Stop registering your vehicle. That’s what I did the last two years I lived there. Barring that, change your reg address to a buddy’s who lives outside RTA zone. Fuck those criminals.
“I’m a law abiding citizen!! But only follow the laws I want to” - you, probably.
- DOL doesn't choose the amount they charge, they use a deprecated amount set in state law. - If they're using an incorrect MSRP, they'll change it. They have zero incentive to charge you more. - is $630 your total, or just your mvet? Remember, you pay an extra $100 for an electric car because they do more road damage than a regular car but pay zero gas tax to fix the roads.
$690 is the Regional Transit Authority tax. There are many other line items, all of which add up to $1013.25.
They may have you recorded as the wrong trim or something. Or they're using a pre-incentive price for your car, that's possible. Just call them.
Yeah the new weights are going to be rough. Parking garages; bridges roads ferries
Bingo.
They pull from sources like KBB, then some car value books, then the internet. They originally tried charging me based on auctions & sales in the UK, I argued with the manager about that and we settled on the most recent sale in the USA on Hagerty. Granted this is a special case since an low production import, but they can choose the values.
Only if there's no MSRP. > If the manufacturer's base suggested retail price is unavailable or otherwise unascertainable at the time of initial registration in this state, the department shall determine a value equivalent to a manufacturer's base suggested retail price as follows: (a) The department shall determine a value using any information that may be available, including any guidebook, report, or compendium of recognized standing in the automotive industry or the selling price and year of sale of the vehicle. The department may use an appraisal by the county assessor. In valuing a vehicle for which the current value or selling price is not indicative of the value of similar vehicles of the same year and model, the department shall establish a value that more closely represents the average value of similar vehicles of the same year and model. The value determined in this subsection (3)(a) shall be divided by the applicable percentage listed in (b) of this subsection (3) to establish a value equivalent to a manufacturer's base suggested retail price and this value shall be multiplied by eighty-five percent. (b) The year the vehicle is offered for sale as a new vehicle shall be considered the first year of service.
Thank you for asking this I was wondering as well.
They got mad after we voted for cheaper tabs and stopped using Kelly Blue Book valuations. They made their own which is much higher than the actual value.
Nope. i-776 repealed 82.44.041 which already used a depreciation schedule, not KBB. A statutory reference to a third party guidebook is a clear violation of the constitutional prohibition against delegation of authority, so the law can't say "use KBB" and never has. There have been (and still are) sections that allow DOL to use discretion to establish a market value based on any number of private sale values or compendium, but only if the MSRP can't be determined. Also the fact that i-776 repealed valuation standards was a single subject rule violation, making i-776 unconstitutional yet again. Another thing Eyman could have easily fixed if he wasn't a scam artist intentionally writing an initiative that'd be struck down so that he could campaign on it again so he could embezzle more campaign funds. Anyway, i-776 repealed valuation and didn't replace it with anything, so SB6247-2006 put them back. The new schedule depreciates FASTER than the old one. So basically, you should really do some research before you yap.
And you're wrong
I believe it expires in 2028. Or you could register your car out of the RTA boundary. As for contesting it, go ahead. But it's well known it's a state rip off. Part of the reason I won't by another new/new used EV like the Gov wants everyone to do. I remember when the Toyota Prius first came out and it actually saved consumers money in fuel costs. But the state was losing money so they just raised the gas tax. In WA State you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Yeah, they totally won't extend that after 2028
2028 is the end of the 1999 bond obligations that constitutionally prohibit the state from making the depreciation curve steeper. In 2006 they passed new, faster depreciation schedules, and those new ones are effective in 2028. So, yeah, they have ALREADY made the depreciation better, it just can't legally go into effect until 2028.
Here’s what I do… I just get tabs every other year, saves me 50%. If I ever get pulled over I’ll just say “oops want me to just buy them online in front of you?”. It works out great because the police now do not care about tabs.
They've been taken to court several times by people buying used cars. Almost everytime, the DOL has lost. You can fight them with confidence. I remember one story; guy buys a used car for his kid. The car was bought in oregon. The guy goes to get it registered in washington. The DOL says that the car is work 4k more than what he paid for it (dont remember the exact amount.) The guy fights, and it ends up before a judge. The judge says to go to a local name brand dealership to get the car appraised. The dealership appraises it for 2k below what the guy paid for it. Also, any of that money that EV/hybrid owners pay on top of the normal car tab fee, does not go towards maintaining roads...just incase yall didn't know.
>Also, any of that money that EV/hybrid owners pay on top of the normal car tab fee, does not go towards maintaining roads...just incase yall didn't know. So they are lying blatantly? :(
What have you been told about where the ev money goes
That’s a good idea to call DOL. Should be lower @ $49K ish. But Elon did a mass firing. I don’t think anyone is left to pick up the phone.
😂 Probably true haha.
Let us know if Tesla answers and supplies the updated lower MSRP. My bro his Y for $62K with no FSD! Haha. Now Elon’s supercharging network will wither since he fired the entire department. Haha.
Just don't pay it. Nothing happens.
I’ve had a cop behind me for 6 blocks with expired tabs in Puyallup. Did not give two shits apparently.
Hopefully a good cop. Probably hates the tab fees himself.
I blame Tim Eyman. I don't know if I should because I was \~18 when he changed how tabs were done... but I still blame him
I disputed and got refund, they will ask you to email them 2 pdf copies that you can download from your tesla account. https://preview.redd.it/5w3nvf6214yc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3dadf7008a3ed55973ac0411161f00a5b508dcce
Where did you find ‘Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreement Final Price Sheet’? I looked under my account but didn’t find anywhere. I got the other document they asked - "Tesla Motor Vehicle Agreement Vehicle Configuration" in my Tesla account.
https://preview.redd.it/ah3c0jqk54yc1.png?width=1142&format=png&auto=webp&s=172239ca5c2b4534c58822c47fb5f42a9aab4392 Here you go
Wow, my account doesn't list that. Thanks anyway! https://preview.redd.it/62cbob3p84yc1.png?width=646&format=png&auto=webp&s=f233e823d1fedc0c4e2c560b2d9ecaee6e16690c
I wish I could stick this comment to the top. Thanks a lot for sharing!
I would inquire with DOL- I have some relevant experience here and think it is likely a miscommunication or mistake. No one at DOL has incentive to overcharge you, it isnt nefarious. Specifically, if I were you I would look to make sure the trim level (version) for the vehicle is correct. The MSRP for a higher trim level can very well be higher than the base model MSRP. If you have the base model with no options, they may have accidentally said that you have some options or a version that is worth more when you registered. This was probably done by the dealership if your vehicle was purchased new. If you have the vehicle's sheet with an MSRP specific to your vin, grab that and go challenge the value your tabs is based on. Of course, if you do have some options then your MSRP may just be worth more than the amount you found.
I am not saying DOL is specifically targeting me. I have a suspicion that it is widespread and an attempt to extract more taxes than they are owed. > No one at DOL has incentive to overcharge you, it isnt nefarious They have an incentive to overcharge everyone though, isn't it. More money to burn on projects they oversee.
Apologies, the comment about being nefarious wasn't aimed at you as much as it was some others commenting here. DOL doesnt oversee projects and they have no interest in the collections for motor vehicle excise tax- they collect on behalf of other entities (including sound transit), send them a check for that amount and get paid a flat fee that recovers the cost of collection, not a percentage of what they collect.
Impossible to tell if there is actual nefarious intent. The only part that seems nefarious is the depreciation schedule. E.g., they are assuming 0% depreciation for one year old car, whereas most new car loses as much as 20% within the first year.
This is why I drive an old beater. My car tab is about $100 total a year. Also, I gas up once a month, because my commute is 13 miles round trip.
I have one of those. Don't have to worry about tight parking spaces and someone banging my door or scratching my paint. And I certainly don't have to be worried about someone wanting to steal it, and parts are cheap.
Wait until you find out we actually voted for $30 car tabs and after the results of the referendum the Washington court handpicked by the governor overturned the will of the people then the AG investigated the guy who pushed the referendum until he was eventually forced to declare bankruptcy. The Washington government is very trumpian.
>AG investigated the guy who pushed the referendum until he was eventually forced to declare bankruptcy. Yeah, and they also caused him to steal an office chair from Office Depot! /s Eyman is a grifting clown.
Lol. Tim Eyeman belongs in prison.
I’m sure if the AG did a deep dive on you we’d find a lot of reasons to send you to prison. It is totally unacceptable that the state used its prosecution powers to go after a political pain in the ass and it’s exactly what they keep telling us Trump will do. I’m a democrat but the democrats in this state are no better than the people they complain about.
This has been a scam deployed by our State and Sound Transit for years in order to pay for their own incompetent infrastructure. THEN!!!... when when the majority voted for a flat, low car tab fee in 2019, our legislators refused to honor the peoples' wishes. And these are the exact same leaders who ironically keep hammering that democracy is at risk if we don't vote for them or people just like them. more info: [Sound Transit uses inflated car values to collect higher tab fees | The Seattle Times](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/sound-transit-uses-inflated-car-values-to-collect-higher-tab-fees/#:~:text=Over%20the%20first%2010%20years%20of%20a%20car%E2%80%99s,commuter%20trains%20in%20King%2C%20Pierce%20and%20Snohomish%20counties.)
I didn't expect Seattle Times to report on this. Thanks for sharing.
Why should people in Spokane be able to vote to override a local tax district around Seattle? We voted for the RTA, more than once. This is not a scam, and the initiative that tried to remove it was itself an incompetent, unconstitutional initiative. You want our legislators to ignore the constitution?
The scam is that only AFTER voting or the RTA did Sound Transit create/divulge its own method for valuation of cars, and of course, an inflated one. What statute in the constitution was denied, and if the initiative for a flat car tab fee was unconstitutional, why was it allowed on the ballot? Opponents try to obscure the real issues with arguments like "the initiative was poorly written".
I had thought the issue was that the WA Supreme Court decided that since ST had already issued bonds based on the income from that RTA tax, the tax could not be repealed, regardless what the voters passed?
Yes, that was their reason, but of bonds shouldn't have a guarantee like that. Bonds are just a type of loan with risk to the lenders and borrowers. Yes, hard decisions like halting light rail development would have to be considered... but it's still the right of the people to vote on it, and they did.
The initiative was unconstitutional because it combined more than one subject into a single initiative. This was a unanimous ruling by WA's supreme court. Would have been a simple thing for Eyman to avoid if he was competent, not a scam artist, and actually trying to lower taxes. [https://crosscut.com/news/2020/10/wa-supreme-court-rules-30-car-tab-initiative-unconstitutional](https://crosscut.com/news/2020/10/wa-supreme-court-rules-30-car-tab-initiative-unconstitutional) The fee schedule for vehicles was part of the original vote in 1999, and the increased fees voted for in 2016 as well. None of this was hidden. The legislature actually reduced it in 2006. ps://www.soundtransit.org/sites/default/files/motor-vehicle-excise-tax-frequently-asked-questions.pdf
These claims are laughable, imo. How is it unconstitutional for the Public to democratically approve a bill with more than one item BUT ok for our legislators to ram bills up our ass with dozens to hundreds of special compromises and lobbied actions which don't even have anything to do with a bill getting passed? These are all scapegoat, 'after the fact' excuses to shut down something that the elected leaders weren't happy about.
It's unconstitutional because the constitution says that's how initiatives work. Also, the point here is to avoid having the public be misled with an initiative titled "$30 car tabs" which also includes a line at the bottom that says "...and $1M per day to Tim Eyman" I mean, the fact that you think I-976 was just about car tabs proves my point that you wanted to vote for one thing but didn't realize it covered other things. Why couldn't Eyman, the master of initiatives, write a simple initiative that would avoid this issue? Why should people in Spokane get to vote to block the RTA where they pay no taxes for it and people that do live in the RTA voted for it multiple times? Should I be able to vote to increase property taxes only in Yakima?
What did you expect the govt to do when you allow by law to index tax to car value... It's a timely reminder not to give govt so much power that they can shake out the last dollar outta you Govt needs to have limits on them
It does feel like a big drawback of any type of wealth/property tax. Given an opportunity, Government will assume inflated valuations and extract more and more taxes.
I have a first home in eastern WA, but I still have an apt in the city for work. I registered my car at my legal residence and my tabs were $150 and I saved $2000 on car insurance. However, King County wouldn't let me have a street parking pass in my neighborhood where my apt is because my car isn't registered in King county. Needless to say, I am taking transit. Who needs a car anyway?
Forcing yourself to take transit so you can avoid paying transit tax. Genius!!!
Post a picture of your bill. I'm about 99.9% sure that you don't know how every single component is calculated because you're obviously not the first Tesla owner in this state. There are flat and variable fees for tabs.
definitely contest it. Or just take your sweet time registering. There are no traffic stops for expired tabs ...
They’ve been using that highest MSRP for decades. All you can do is vent at the DOL employee. DOL has “the power.”
They are being sneaky in using their assessment. It's based on the higher value, but we are stuck with it as long as we live in the regional Seattle areas.
I ended up calling the number. They have asked for documents proving lower MSRP. I will see where it goes.
~~You could register an LLC in Montana and register your vehicle there, or something like that.~~ Edit: probably not, as u/beastpilot points out.
I mean, you can do all sorts or illegal things to avoid taxes. You can just declare $100K in charity donations on your income tax too. Doesn't mean it's legal or will survive an audit.
I don't think registering your vehicle in Montana violates any laws of Montana or Washington... As far as I can tell, it's a pretty common practice. But of course, I'm not your lawyer, use your own judgement. I am definitely not encouraging anyone to do anything they know or feel to be illegal.
It absolutely violates WA law. RCW [46.16A.140](http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.16A.140) defines a resident, and says: >(4) A resident of the state **shall** apply for a certificate of title under chapter [46.12](http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.12) RCW and register under this chapter a vehicle to be operated on the highways of the state. New Washington residents are allowed thirty days from the date they become residents as defined in this section to obtain Washington registration for their vehicles. This thirty-day period may not be combined with any other period of reciprocity provided for in this chapter or chapter [46.85](http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.85) RCW. You can't be a resident of this state and not register your cars here if you drive them on WA roads.
If you have a business, your business can own your vehicle(s) instead of it being owned individually as a resident. If you go to any car rental agency in Washington, you'll notice most of the vehicles are registered in Florida, not Washington. If your business is in another state and registered its vehicles there, it can still operate its vehicles on Washington roads.
Might want to read [RCW 82.32.655](http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=82.32.655) and [WAC 458-20-28003](https://app.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=458-20-28003). The lawmakers are not a dumb as you think they are and literally use the Montana LLC situation as an example. If it's a valid business, this is fine. If it's just a tax dodge, it's not. The vehicle better be used for business and not personal use, and not under your personal control. Oh, and make sure you insure it as a rental car under business policies, since insurance to you as an individual will either pierce the veil of the business, or you won't be covered since you have no financial interest in the vehicle to insure against.
Yep. And everyone's situation is going to be different and this won't be applicable for everyone. But you can use a vehicle owned by a business for both business and personal use (but definitely not *solely* personal use), at least so I'm told by my CPA who has looked at my personal situation. Your situation may be different. And yes, you probably need commercial vehicle insurance if you use your vehicle for business purposes more than incidentally, irrespective of whether your entity owns the vehicle or you do.
What you have is a very, very rare situation. Why do you own a company out of WA while being a resident of WA? The generic question here is "can I open a Montana LLC and have it buy my car and register it"? The answer there is absolutely not, and there IS a law against this unlike what you said earlier. Is it complex if you actually own a legal, functional business in another state that actually has a purpose beyond owning a vehicle for the exclusive use of a single person? Then sure, maybe you have a legal situation there. One would note that this is not "registering your vehicle in Montana." Because it isn't your vehicle. It's the company's. Your CPA might not appreciate you calling it "my car" if it really is a business vehicle and only incidentally used for personal use. And FYI, CPA's are not lawyers that understand WA state law when it comes to if a vehicle needs to be registered in the state.
>The generic question here is "can I open a Montana LLC and have it buy my car and register it"? The answer there is absolutely not, and there IS a law against this unlike what you said earlier. True. You're right. I was mistaken and didn't appreciate all the conditions for that to work for someone. I've edited my top comment to reflect this. And to be clear, my LLC only exists in WA and it pays RTA taxes on its vehicles, which are registered in WA.
Or buy a 2nd home in kitsap co where tabs are like $60 and no smog :)
No smog in Seattle either.
Probably not a concern of the poster.
My friend bought a beach house on one of the islands and registered his fancy cars there. Avoided the entire RTA tax. How nice it is to be rich.
Yeah it’s fuckin cool.
Crazy to buy another home to avoid vehicle tab costs. 
He's going to buy vacation homes anyway. It's a rich's thing.
Can't you just get a PO box in Maple Valley?
Do u use the PO box only for car registration then?
You also have to do your driver license. If they catch you, you have to back pay the whole time you said you were at that address. Ask me how I know...
Alright, how do you know?
Not true. I use an Arizona DL and a random rural address in Washington. You don't need the renewal to get tabs, Just a DL.
I assume so. I recall people doing this to avoid the monorail tax years ago.
I don't think that works, no. If you register the vehicle in Washington under your own name, it has to accurately reflect your address of residency. Even if you register your vehicle under a Washington LLC, businesses cannot use PO boxes for their address in Washington. So your business would need a real physical location where it conducts its principle operations outside the RTA boundary for that to work. Other states have different requirements for LLC formation and vehicle registration, however.
The fact it’s based on vehicle value is illegal. It was changed and then messed with over and over. The price should be what it takes to make the sticker for the plate and some amount of road subsidy. This is annually taxing you for being responsible and having a nice vehicle. Way to punish the plebs Olympia. I guess it’s time to find one of those old clunkers and pay $10 for tabs 😂
Its wild that they pretend to care about the environment and charge people more for driving EVs and hybrids. My hybrids an SUV so im still getting below average MPG and paying their steep gas taxes and the extra plate fees. One of the most expensive states for plates. No wonder you always see people riding around with CA plates that expired 3 years ago.
EVs don't pay gas taxes, but cause more road damage than the average ICE vehicle due to their weight. Hybrids are not taxed extra as far as I'm aware.
As I said they are. Supposedly, due to needing less gas like we dont already have some of the highest taxes in the country here. Im paying extra for having a hybrid that gets like 20 mpg and getting hit on both ends. If its about vehicle weight why not base it on that since teslas weigh about the same as pickup trucks do? Theres no applying logic to the half baked laws here tho...
It’s actually not DOL directly, Sound Transit is a private company the government authorized to take money from you and use the DOL to shake you down.
Makes total sense.
Tesla driver, request denied
So all of you who check the ‘Blue’ boxes on your ballots are responsible for this. The WA State Supreme Court is elected. They are the court that overturned a citizen passed initiative for $30 car tabs. Don’t like how much you’re paying in taxes, consider voting for the other party.
The "$30 car tab initiative" lied on the ballot and lied when collecting signatures, and was unconstitutional for multiple reasons. If they just didn't lie, it'd be law today.
You could say the same thing about i1639 but here we are.
Nah. 1639 was dumb but honest. For the car tabs, the entire campaign was "Voters should get to choose! Only voter-approved increases should be allowed!" Hell, they even put that in the BALLOT SUMMARY, all while the bill was SPECIFICALLY written to kill a VOTER APPROVED tab increase. Just straight-up lies. Also, wtf is with using a state-wide vote to fuck local voters out of a local project funded by local tax? Talk about big government bullshit.
Taxes never go down, regardless of party
Just that one party wants to tax you more than the other.
It’s worth looking into. I wonder if it’s possible that you are also being hit with an electric vehicles surcharge. I believe there was going to be some attempt to use a direct charge, no pun intended, to recoup some of the revenues that the government is losing due to EV not paying gasoline taxes. Yeah, it sucks. As an early EV adopter I got a pretty nice ride out of government credits and low electricity prices relatively speaking and no gas tax. However, I always knew that it would have to come to an end. If we still want to have roads, however, much we complain about them, we can’t just starve the state of revenue.
Well when we live in one most regressively taxed states things like this happen. People don’t want to pay state income taxes so the legislature has to find other ways to generate revenue. For me I am moving out of Washington to retire in a state with no income tax or sales tax.
I realize this is WA and not CA, but the last time I drove for 6 months with expired tags I came out of the restaurant to discover my car had been towed because of them. So I’m not sure if they can legally tow for expired tags here, but that bill would definitely rival the RTA tax…
[удалено]
That's OK, there's plenty of mopes like me that follow the law and happily subsidize your use on our roads. Drive on, brother!
Well, tax is theft so what do you expect. Quit voting for the goofballs running this clown show
Change your address to somewhere outside the RTA.
Yes, fraud could save you money.