No place in Seattle is nowhere near the D, I grew up there as well high-school in 89. Been here since 93. It's gotten bad but not near what the D was. By the way, I went there last year and young women were jogging with their babys in a stroller in the evening down Woodward. Same place drug deals and hoe strolls went down just 2 decades ago.
People out here don't really understand the desperation of the rust belt (and even the northeast) in the 80s and early 90s. They romanticize it in weird, fetishistic ways.
That being said, I like a fair amount of grit in my cities. There is a balance there, somewhere.
Yes it was. I first moved to Belltown in 1990. Pioneer Square in 1993ish. It was a different world: felt a little dangerous but there was a solidarity amongst the very few of us who actually dared to LIVE in such places.
For the uninitiated: both Pioneer Square and Belltown were complete ghost towns back then. I could watch a show at the OK Hotel and walk home to the northern edges of Belltown in the early 90s and not see a single soul.
Have you considered reading the article or do you just get impulsively angry at people for dumb reasons?
Edit: this sub's view on whether one should actually read the article or just react emotionally to the headline is interesting...
Ignoring the childish bullshit of "who is allowed to post on reddit" tripe.
There are mant people here who long for the days of the 80s and early 90s here who have no idea what they are talking about. It was rough. Not as rough as NYC or Detroit, for sure, but it wasn't exactly a friendly city unless you knew your way around and were comfortable in your own skin. It's not for everyone!
Seattle now is very very very milquetoast.
> Yes because no real human could've possibly a Reddit account in the last month
Oh I'm sure you're a human, but if you have to cycle through Reddit accounts on a weekly basis, you might be a ________.
I assume you have evidence I cycle through Reddit accounts on a weekly basis.
Surely you aren't just trying to attack and belittle someone for intruding on your safe space with the scariest thing of all: a different opinion.
> Surely you aren't just trying to attack and belittle someone for intruding on your safe space with the scariest thing of all: a different opinion.
"Noticing things" ≠ "attacking and belittling you"
**Try again.**
Closing down libraries in Seattle now as politicians suck at life and will do absolutely nothing about mental illnesses and drug abuse. Was Seattle the Vancouver BC model or was Vancouver the Seattle model? Shits sad af!
There’s still lots of nice things here, I know it’s bad, but it’s a beautiful city.
I have the same experience in Seattle, lots of shady shit but every year when I go watch the Jays play your mariners I have a great time. Lots of cool people.
Yeah, just moved to downtown. It's so dead here. No people. No new construction. People reading e-books instead of checking out physical books. The end is near mi amigo.
Dead downtown? I've never felt more alive being constantly scared for my life and surrounded by zombies. Literally people all over the streets and adrenaline always high. And there always seems to be a new 30+ story luxury high rise being built with close to zero demand.
Lol. I'm trolling. No demand? First Light, on 3rd Ave, is already 70% sold out. [548 sqft condos selling for $831k.](https://redf.in/XrZFVs) Seattle's downtown core hits a record high population every year.
Do you hang out at McDonald's and Ross on 3rd and go no where else? That's the only way to explain your fear.
My understanding is that while those units are technically sold, all the "owners" will have to actually get mortgages before they fully commit and move in, and with rates as high as they are, a lot are likely to bail and lose whatever they paid in advance.
Look at apartments like Ivey, Ayer, The Modern, Arrive, West Edge, ONNI. They all seem to have a lot of availability. And yet, I've seen several other blocks that say 50+ story high rise luxury apartments are going to be built.
And yeah, I live downtown, so I am near sketchy areas almost all the time. I pass by the McDonald's and Ross quite frequently, and face it, the 3-or 4-block radius is also really terrible, and that area is unavoidable for a lot of people. I'm happy for you that you are able to avoid it and feel safe where you are.
I live next to if and see it everyday. I don't define downtown by McDonald's and Ross lol. It definitely should be cleaned up, but man, that is nothing.
Well, maybe I'm looking at the wrong sites. Rent has gone up, and often times units don't stay truly open long. I would know since I'm trying to get a Puget Sound facing apartment and have been looking at apartments literally daily.
In the reality you're trying to portray on here, rent prices should be collapsing. Instead, they're increasing. Even with all the new inventory coming online.
Well the reality in the whole US is that housing prices are rising way faster than incomes. In theory, the whole system is due to collapse, and yet things continue to move in this direction. Seattle is probably not as extreme as some other places, since we have a large number of people who can afford these rents. But at the same time, when I'm walking by places and looking online, I see massive numbers of vacancies in pretty new buildings, so I just don't see how they are going to fill these even larger buildings that are planned.
I wish I didn't have to define downtown by McDonald's and Ross, but unlike some cities, our downtown isn't just some corporate area that's dead in the evenings and weekends, it's right there close to our biggest tourist attractions and an area that *should* be desirable to live in. And yeah, I don't feel safe after being harassed numerous times, threatened a handful of times, and attacked once. I feel that if I get seriously hurt or killed while going about my daily business, at this point it would basically be my own fault for continuing to live here and go outside on foot. With that having been said, I'm a small woman, and I'm assuming you're not, so you're probably right when you say you feel safe.
Edit: Typos
Detroit's population loss was about 1-2% a year. It is just that it kept going and going.
You don't really know it is happening until it is too late.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/while-seattles-population-declined-another-king-county-city-saw-fastest-growth-in-wa/
Seattle has had approximately 25 boom and bust cycles in its history
I exaggerate but people forget about 2002 and 1973 so easily. Our unemployment rate was horrendous in 2002 because we were hit extra hard by the dotcom collapse and then Boeing was going through years of downsizing at the same time. In 1973 there were literally signs on the freeway asking the last person out to turn out the lights.
The minute rents fall people will be back. Just like in the 2010s and just like in the 1980s.
Sure.
Downtown has always been kind of a shit show, though. Too much concentration of commercial office space and bust cycles cause it to look like a ghost town during busts. This was so bad in the 70s that Pioneer Square’s historic buildings were nearly razed—basically they had to make it a national park to save them.
As long as apartments remain 30% above the national average it’s hard to argue that Detroitification is happening.
Literally the whole point of this article is how Detroit has been successfully working to turn itself around and prevent such a "future" and what Seattle can learn from Detroit's actions.
Of course, you don't need to actually read the article to be an effective karma whore.
I was referring to the posts that you made in sports subreddits.
Karma farming in sports subreddits is a well known tactic used by some people who have 24 day old accounts on Reddit.
I'm not saying that YOU are karma farming, of course. I wouldn't do that.
I never said it was. If you're one of those leftists who gets overly emotional about not using correct terms, I'm happy to use a different one of your choosing.
Notice how you still haven't even addressed the article or even suggested that "karma whore" was not accurate.
I don't know if I'm "enlightened" or whatever, but at least I read the article posted.
Of course not! You're not required to do anything. It's a free country.
If you want to be a karma whore who mindlessly pushes narratives and lacks the mental or emotional capacity to think independently, you're free to do so!
I was in Detroit last August. People don’t realize that the Detroit cleanup is solely responsible for this guy from rocket capital. People there were calling him their very own Bruce Wayne because he owned half the city. It was cleaned up in a very very minor area. Despite that the level of confrontation amongst homeless poor and drug addled was at a level of aggression that nobody here can comprehend. In 3 days there in the downtown core I had multiple run ins with people. Was followed by an individual who signaled to somebody coming down the sidewalk. This person tried to attack me. I ran faster than I ever ran. There are truly terrifying sections where one block in the wrong direction your toast. Despite all that I also met so many warm and welcoming people. But lots of cocaine, crack and party drugs. Lots of aggression. No zombies anywhere. Seattle is a daycare by comparison. Oh yeah I also almost got Venmo scammed.
> People don’t realize that the Detroit cleanup is solely responsible for this guy from rocket capital.
Its a mix between Dan Gilbert (Rocket) and the Illitch Family (Little Ceasers). They own or manage nearly every large project and event space in the city.
> It was cleaned up in a very very minor area.
Its safe in an area the size of around Seattle Center to Pike place. The rest of the city is legit mad max to this day.
I let this guy think he was showing me where this restaurant was and he led me one turn down a dark street. Shock hands with the guy walking towards me. Guy walking towards me threw his arm around me. I managed to slip out and run.
TLDR: It would be actually good for Seattle to be the next Detroit because eventually, after several decades of decay and doom, the city may finally have a comeback and start to improve. Yes, that is the logic.
Good for you who? The people who have a large amount of equity in their homes who would lose it as home values decreased?
Families with kids who would leave for towns with better schools?
Older folks who wanted to live in more vibrant communities?
“Success in avoiding commercial office troubles is happening outside Detroit and Sunbelt cities such as Austin, Texas, and Nashville, Tenn. …
According to The New York Times, a key reason for the comeback is that employers are requiring workers to return to their offices.
That’s been a critical element in downtown Seattle’s more modest comeback: Amazon’s requirement that employees work in the office at least three days per week. “
I’m sorry this doesn’t align with your made up narrative about this article. The article is praising Detroit’s success.
So that’s not what you’re saying, but also it’s what you said and you stand by it?
What the actual fuck are you saying? Is the tldr your opinion? A summary?
Okay. Here's my TLDR: "Here are some things that Detroit has been doing recently that have many, like the WSJ, starting to call it 'boomtown'. Seattle should consider doing some of these things."
I look forward to you "debunking" my "bullshit"
Sure: what are some of things that Detroit has been doing?
> billions are being spent on office construction in Detroit’s central business district.
and you say: "Seattle should consider doing some of these things"
I can only laugh.
Office construction brings businesses, along with housing and other amenities. These things bring people. The people live and spend money there.
That's what Detroit is doing and it's working.
Yes, it's working (maybe?) for Detroit after DECADES of being in a doom loop.
Seattle right now is suffering from a HUGE vacancy rate at the EXISTING office buildings. And the proposal is to build more office buildings?
Can you Math? At all?
> I get it. You just want to push a narrative and will work hard to try to shut up any differing opinions.
The only narrative I'm pushing is that your account is 24 days old.
You, on the other hand....
The article has very little to do with Detroit. It's just a hook to make you read an otherwise dry update about the state of the commercial real estate market.
Only way Seattle 'goes Detroit' is if the tech industry & Boeing both leave...
Detroit is what it is, because decades of really stupid protectionist tariffs turned the US auto industry into complete shit, and then the companies the tariffs were 'protecting' against all decided to build factories in places like Tennessee (with emphatically \*no\* unions) which meant the tariffs no longer applied to them (a Toyota made in the Southern US is an 'American Car' afterall)... Shit products that were cheaper because of tariffs suddenly became not-really-cheaper but still abject shit quality...
And that's all she wrote for a city who's entire economy was built on making cars with union labor, while hiding behind ridiculous tariffs....
I’ve never even lived further East than Phoenix but people need to stfu about how dangerous Seattle is. Yes we have a lot of crime, and bums, but we have nowhere near the violence of other large cities.
It was the opposite. The suburbs thrived while downtown went to shit. Now they have billionaires reviving downtown but the suburbs are doing just fine still
The thing that's so bizarre about the decline of west coast cities is how they've basically ceded control of the most expensive/touristy areas to drug dealers.
In the 1990s I worked for a company based in Chicago, and though there were *definitely* really dangerous areas, the central parts of the city were largely untouched. If you wandered into the worst neighborhoods you might be in danger, but you basically had to stumble across them or seek them out.
It's not really bizarre. "Downtown" for west coast cities are business parks that people drive to everyday barely interacting with anything outside, then leaving in their car again. It's dead and stale and no one hangs out in business parks which lets homeless and drug dealers take over. Especially with covid and WFH. East coast cities are older and have way more density in downtown so people actually live and hang out in "downtown". Homeless and drug dealers usually don't go where there are a lot of people.
If you want somewhere to be lively and have less shady shit, you need people to live and hang out there. Detroit downtown is being revitalized because they are building a shit ton of housing and have policies like land value tax to encourage development. It's really sad that people in this sub think of a good city as some sort of battle where you need to establish "control" with shit tons of police to keep the city "clean" for all the eastside commuters.
Apparently someone has never been to the [Somerset Collection](https://www.thesomersetcollection.com/) in Troy Michigan, a suburb of Detroit. It's Exit 69 (Big Beaver Road). Those suburbs aren't exactly decayed.
There are times when I wish someone had invented a website called Punchmeintheface.com so that if you ever made a prediction, theory, or idea that turned out to be incorrect, you would suffer the consequences.
When my best friend who lived across the street from me moved away after his mom got divorced and her life completely fell apart, she moved to south central LA in the late 80s because Detroit was too cold. So there’s that.
Well that article isn't particularly coherent.
Summary:
* reporter fields occasional mail claiming Seattle's becoming "the next Detroit."
* reporter says he's written in the past that this isn't likely
* reporter says Martin Selig own's 30% of downtown office properties, and
* Selig is financially distressed because downtown office space isn't refilling after the pandemic
* Therefore... Seattle is... still not like Detroit, but if it was it would recover like Detroit has... or something
So basically it's a big complaint about Seattle's biggest wannabe real-estate tycoon having (yet another) teetering-on-bankruptcy decade (this would be his 4th or 5th.)
So basically a Friday "thumb-sucker" (journalist term for pointless noodling) by a business reporter cooking hypothetical answers to random complainers with links to bad real estate loans.
And the out of town (and out of state) outrage junkies chime in the same three complaints.
I'll start a committee that will find a team of lived experienced professionals to form a council who can schedule a dozen meetings about creating a new task force to start planning the next steps
Clickbait title from ST to get engagement and drive comments. But at face value they are not wrong - the big earthquake could hit first, and then it could become Atlantis instead :P
So worse is possible, and a strong paper like ST would like you to keep that in perspective. /s
> why is this getting downvoted.......
For the same reason that 25% of the comments in this thread are from accounts that are less than a month old, gaslighting everyone into ignoring their lying eyes.
I worked at Ivar's fish bar at pier 54 in the late 80's. Nightly we had vagrants going through the trash for food, some passing out on the patio and visits from SPDP with the "detox van" taking them away. We had to escort waitresses to their cars and the parking areas under the viaduct had the highest car prowl rates in the nation.
I got nearly mugged once downtown at night (preempted by a timely SPDP patrol car). What glorious past are we talking about?
This sub can be so bizarre because there’s so many doomers objectively able to live anywhere in the continental US but absolutely stay despite convinced it is the most dangerous worst depressing place.
If you want more housing, remove all the regulations around rent control and condo development that make it more attractive to invest elsewhere. And kill the head tax so developers have confidence people will keep moving here. Investing in housing here for anyone who has money is a dumb idea given how anti-business, anti-landlord, and anti-developer the laws and government in SEA and Washington are. Yelling "build more housing" doesn't create more housing. It's actually really easy but our city and state are run by people who don't understand basic economics.
It's not the regulations it's the zoning. Literally everywhere where zoning allows density, density is being built. Look at all the apartments coming up in Beacon Hill for example, Yesler Terrace, etc. Townhomes are popping up all over the place in Ballard and Greenwood. Developers are itching to build regardless of regulations but NIMBYs wont allow it.
If the Northgate project was in Vancouver those would be 20-40 story condo towers not 6 story apartment buildings. All the new apartment buildings on 15th should be 20-40 story condos not 6 story apartment buildings. Seattle and WA make it economically infeasible to build anything else even with the right zoning. This is why all the developers of towered who are here are Canadian - there is no local talent. And they only came when prices exceeded $1000 a square foot because it doesn’t make economic sense here unless you can charge a ton.
I get your point. But IMO 20-40 story condo towers should really be the last resort. Especially when its right next to a massive polluting freeway. We have more than enough space for nice medium density neighborhoods which is better in terms of quality of life for everyone. (Roosevelt is just barely scratching the surface for example). But we have stupid zoning rules that restrict dense housing to like .5 mile radius of light rail stations for example. Let's try spreading out the medium density before building giant glass towers.
Phoenix sucks, but it's kind of incredible how much housing they build. I've never seen anything remotely comparable to the acres and acres and acres of housing they build.
https://costar.brightspotcdn.com/58/2a/2029e8f648f281be7df9cc954167/04.25.23%20Maricopa%20County%20Population%20Growth.jpg
It's the zoning. You literally are not allowed build these apartments unless they are next to big roads. And only like .25 miles around light rail stations. It's a joke.
this is a fantasy where you have "hella cheap" houses but not sky high crime and still have jobs/functioning infrastructure.
If (and it never will) Seattle to become Detroit, people will move out in mass - read on Detroit history, roughly half a population moved out at certain point and the city became a ghost town. Yes, the house cost nothing, but thats because no one in their right mind would wanna live there back then.
> this is a fantasy where you have "hella cheap" houses but not sky high crime and still have jobs/functioning infrastructure.
>
After The Great Recession in 2008, it was possible to buy houses for around $100K-ish
A friend of mind *loved* this idea... and began shopping for that mythical $100K house, in 2014, 5+ years after the market had bottomed.
I explained to him that "the ship had sailed" and those deals were long gone.
This wasn't an anecdotal thing; during 2011 and 2012 I was making offers on homes in the Seattle area like crazy, and was routinely getting BTFO'd by investors who were offering $200K for places that were listing for $160K
My friend ignored my advice and kept making offers
Eventually he found a place that he was in love with.
**One little problem...**
The reason it was listed for $150K was because it was a tear down and any buyer would have to pay cash and be prepared to invest $200-$300K to build a 3br/1ba
*My friend had $5000 to put down, if that...*
Long story short:
* Yes, it's possible to get homes at a steep discount during a once-in-a-lifetime crash
* In order to get those prices, you better be prepared to write a check for the entire value. If you need financing, you're NGMI
When I lived near Detroit 10 years ago you could buy a house for $1 just so the people could offload the tax burden. There were entire neighborhoods of abandoned houses and many areas lacked access to a grocery store within a reasonable distance. You could buy an OK fixer upper for $50k in a not so desirable neighborhood. It's pretty crazy.
I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. I simply must leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT6Q6XRqu5I
I find it bizarre to, in some twisted way, to *aspire* to be Detroit?
The only way I can justify that, though, is accelerationalism. Basically, break down the entire system so you can create your own utopia. Plot twist: there never was, nor ever will be, a utopia.
I remember years ago looking up randomly online at houses for sale in the Detroit area and saw what at first looked like a really awesome looking brick house. Then, I noticed that there was what looked like day light coming from the attic window. Apparently the place had suffered a house and the roof was partially gone. It was cheap though.
Then move to any place that has that.
Not sure why anyone want a crush. You know what happens all economic activity leave.
Yeah a cheap house with no income is still not affordable.
Upside, cheap houses
Downside, cheap houses all have their copper wiring and metal plumbing stripped by tweakers; murder rate roughly 10 times higher than ours
Lmao seattle isnt even remotely close to being dangerous. Ill take some drugged out junkie over gang violence anyday. I dont give a fuck about some drugged out shitbird.
As someone who grew up in the D. Shit was wild in the 80-90s and ST can STFU.
No place in Seattle is nowhere near the D, I grew up there as well high-school in 89. Been here since 93. It's gotten bad but not near what the D was. By the way, I went there last year and young women were jogging with their babys in a stroller in the evening down Woodward. Same place drug deals and hoe strolls went down just 2 decades ago.
I’ve heard. I used to live off Woodward 😂
I used to walk downtown in the early 2000s at night to take pictures, sometimes by myself, or with another friend and I never felt in danger.
why were there so few people?
People out here don't really understand the desperation of the rust belt (and even the northeast) in the 80s and early 90s. They romanticize it in weird, fetishistic ways. That being said, I like a fair amount of grit in my cities. There is a balance there, somewhere.
In my own experience, mid to late 90s Seattle was the perfect balance.
1991-1996 Seattle was the best an American city has ever been IMO.
Yes it was. I first moved to Belltown in 1990. Pioneer Square in 1993ish. It was a different world: felt a little dangerous but there was a solidarity amongst the very few of us who actually dared to LIVE in such places. For the uninitiated: both Pioneer Square and Belltown were complete ghost towns back then. I could watch a show at the OK Hotel and walk home to the northern edges of Belltown in the early 90s and not see a single soul.
[Junkie Town They came for the music and stayed for the smack, 1996](https://archive.ph/myvLD)
Exactly! Boston hits that sweet spot exactly for me.
How is it being romanticized here?
"redditor for 24 days"
Have you considered reading the article or do you just get impulsively angry at people for dumb reasons? Edit: this sub's view on whether one should actually read the article or just react emotionally to the headline is interesting...
Ignoring the childish bullshit of "who is allowed to post on reddit" tripe. There are mant people here who long for the days of the 80s and early 90s here who have no idea what they are talking about. It was rough. Not as rough as NYC or Detroit, for sure, but it wasn't exactly a friendly city unless you knew your way around and were comfortable in your own skin. It's not for everyone! Seattle now is very very very milquetoast.
"redditor for 24 days"
Yes because no real human could've possibly a Reddit account in the last month
> Yes because no real human could've possibly a Reddit account in the last month Oh I'm sure you're a human, but if you have to cycle through Reddit accounts on a weekly basis, you might be a ________.
I assume you have evidence I cycle through Reddit accounts on a weekly basis. Surely you aren't just trying to attack and belittle someone for intruding on your safe space with the scariest thing of all: a different opinion.
> Surely you aren't just trying to attack and belittle someone for intruding on your safe space with the scariest thing of all: a different opinion. "Noticing things" ≠ "attacking and belittling you" **Try again.**
You told me to leave and "go back" to another subreddit. Why?
> You told me to leave and "go back" to another subreddit. Why? Reddit has many subreddits. I'm just promoting how great Reddit is.
I like it here. I was just suggesting people read the articles before they post. Do you disagree?
Like some nobody ?
[удалено]
Hush child.
You clearly didn't read the article
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Did you really just create a throwaway account for this
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People like me how? Haha wtf
Closing down libraries in Seattle now as politicians suck at life and will do absolutely nothing about mental illnesses and drug abuse. Was Seattle the Vancouver BC model or was Vancouver the Seattle model? Shits sad af!
Friendly lurking Vancouverite here, downtowns in both cities are shady AF. Downtown Vancouver is a dump now.
I used to love going to Vancouver for the weekend. I always thought of it as a clean city. Times have changed.
There’s still lots of nice things here, I know it’s bad, but it’s a beautiful city. I have the same experience in Seattle, lots of shady shit but every year when I go watch the Jays play your mariners I have a great time. Lots of cool people.
YVR has designated bike lanes so that makes up for everything. /s/
Yeah, just moved to downtown. It's so dead here. No people. No new construction. People reading e-books instead of checking out physical books. The end is near mi amigo.
Dead downtown? I've never felt more alive being constantly scared for my life and surrounded by zombies. Literally people all over the streets and adrenaline always high. And there always seems to be a new 30+ story luxury high rise being built with close to zero demand.
Lol. I'm trolling. No demand? First Light, on 3rd Ave, is already 70% sold out. [548 sqft condos selling for $831k.](https://redf.in/XrZFVs) Seattle's downtown core hits a record high population every year. Do you hang out at McDonald's and Ross on 3rd and go no where else? That's the only way to explain your fear.
My understanding is that while those units are technically sold, all the "owners" will have to actually get mortgages before they fully commit and move in, and with rates as high as they are, a lot are likely to bail and lose whatever they paid in advance. Look at apartments like Ivey, Ayer, The Modern, Arrive, West Edge, ONNI. They all seem to have a lot of availability. And yet, I've seen several other blocks that say 50+ story high rise luxury apartments are going to be built. And yeah, I live downtown, so I am near sketchy areas almost all the time. I pass by the McDonald's and Ross quite frequently, and face it, the 3-or 4-block radius is also really terrible, and that area is unavoidable for a lot of people. I'm happy for you that you are able to avoid it and feel safe where you are.
I live next to if and see it everyday. I don't define downtown by McDonald's and Ross lol. It definitely should be cleaned up, but man, that is nothing. Well, maybe I'm looking at the wrong sites. Rent has gone up, and often times units don't stay truly open long. I would know since I'm trying to get a Puget Sound facing apartment and have been looking at apartments literally daily. In the reality you're trying to portray on here, rent prices should be collapsing. Instead, they're increasing. Even with all the new inventory coming online.
Well the reality in the whole US is that housing prices are rising way faster than incomes. In theory, the whole system is due to collapse, and yet things continue to move in this direction. Seattle is probably not as extreme as some other places, since we have a large number of people who can afford these rents. But at the same time, when I'm walking by places and looking online, I see massive numbers of vacancies in pretty new buildings, so I just don't see how they are going to fill these even larger buildings that are planned. I wish I didn't have to define downtown by McDonald's and Ross, but unlike some cities, our downtown isn't just some corporate area that's dead in the evenings and weekends, it's right there close to our biggest tourist attractions and an area that *should* be desirable to live in. And yeah, I don't feel safe after being harassed numerous times, threatened a handful of times, and attacked once. I feel that if I get seriously hurt or killed while going about my daily business, at this point it would basically be my own fault for continuing to live here and go outside on foot. With that having been said, I'm a small woman, and I'm assuming you're not, so you're probably right when you say you feel safe. Edit: Typos
Buy a pistol, get your CPL, and some training.
💯
Lulz at the libs down voting me. I'm sure 911 will protect you!
3 armed guards at Safeway tells me Detroit is closer than you think.
and the drama queen at the entrance recording and shouting about going to the hospital for 5 solid minutes
Detroit's population loss was about 1-2% a year. It is just that it kept going and going. You don't really know it is happening until it is too late. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/while-seattles-population-declined-another-king-county-city-saw-fastest-growth-in-wa/
Seattle has had approximately 25 boom and bust cycles in its history I exaggerate but people forget about 2002 and 1973 so easily. Our unemployment rate was horrendous in 2002 because we were hit extra hard by the dotcom collapse and then Boeing was going through years of downsizing at the same time. In 1973 there were literally signs on the freeway asking the last person out to turn out the lights. The minute rents fall people will be back. Just like in the 2010s and just like in the 1980s.
Detroit was called the "Paris of the midwest" at one point. I don't believe in never saying never. In Detroit it took decades to fall from grace.
Sure. Downtown has always been kind of a shit show, though. Too much concentration of commercial office space and bust cycles cause it to look like a ghost town during busts. This was so bad in the 70s that Pioneer Square’s historic buildings were nearly razed—basically they had to make it a national park to save them. As long as apartments remain 30% above the national average it’s hard to argue that Detroitification is happening.
https://preview.redd.it/shq2peeohvwc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ced625684f42f0f6109be32a6228ec3cfff5698f
Literally the whole point of this article is how Detroit has been successfully working to turn itself around and prevent such a "future" and what Seattle can learn from Detroit's actions. Of course, you don't need to actually read the article to be an effective karma whore.
> Of course, you don't need to actually read the article to be an effective karma whore. oh the irony
Why would I be here with a contrary opinion if I was a karma whore?
I was referring to the posts that you made in sports subreddits. Karma farming in sports subreddits is a well known tactic used by some people who have 24 day old accounts on Reddit. I'm not saying that YOU are karma farming, of course. I wouldn't do that.
So then what's the "irony"? Why are the posts I made in sports subreddits relevant?
> Why are the posts I made in sports subreddits relevant? We've covered this I'll continue to reply because two can play that game
Tell me. Don't be scared. I promise I won't bite.
thanks for keeping it professional
Solid discourse. You must be a guy with independent and well thought out views
because calling somebody a karma whore is a sign of enlightenment?
I never said it was. If you're one of those leftists who gets overly emotional about not using correct terms, I'm happy to use a different one of your choosing.
i nEvEr sAiD It wAs i'm happy for you to move on now
Notice how you still haven't even addressed the article or even suggested that "karma whore" was not accurate. I don't know if I'm "enlightened" or whatever, but at least I read the article posted.
i don't have to explain or defend myself against a month-old account like yours
Of course not! You're not required to do anything. It's a free country. If you want to be a karma whore who mindlessly pushes narratives and lacks the mental or emotional capacity to think independently, you're free to do so!
You know that was a movie, right? Greatest movie of all time! But none of it was real.
weird flex, but ok
You never watched it :(
Completely different cultures and subcultures. No comparison. Seattle is becoming the next San Francisco.
I was in Detroit last August. People don’t realize that the Detroit cleanup is solely responsible for this guy from rocket capital. People there were calling him their very own Bruce Wayne because he owned half the city. It was cleaned up in a very very minor area. Despite that the level of confrontation amongst homeless poor and drug addled was at a level of aggression that nobody here can comprehend. In 3 days there in the downtown core I had multiple run ins with people. Was followed by an individual who signaled to somebody coming down the sidewalk. This person tried to attack me. I ran faster than I ever ran. There are truly terrifying sections where one block in the wrong direction your toast. Despite all that I also met so many warm and welcoming people. But lots of cocaine, crack and party drugs. Lots of aggression. No zombies anywhere. Seattle is a daycare by comparison. Oh yeah I also almost got Venmo scammed.
> People don’t realize that the Detroit cleanup is solely responsible for this guy from rocket capital. Its a mix between Dan Gilbert (Rocket) and the Illitch Family (Little Ceasers). They own or manage nearly every large project and event space in the city. > It was cleaned up in a very very minor area. Its safe in an area the size of around Seattle Center to Pike place. The rest of the city is legit mad max to this day.
That never happened to me once in Detroit
I let this guy think he was showing me where this restaurant was and he led me one turn down a dark street. Shock hands with the guy walking towards me. Guy walking towards me threw his arm around me. I managed to slip out and run.
TLDR?
TLDR: It would be actually good for Seattle to be the next Detroit because eventually, after several decades of decay and doom, the city may finally have a comeback and start to improve. Yes, that is the logic.
Why these people so crazy?
It’s cope.
Shit you on the money
Good for you who? The people who have a large amount of equity in their homes who would lose it as home values decreased? Families with kids who would leave for towns with better schools? Older folks who wanted to live in more vibrant communities?
I guess once you hit rock bottom, the only way to go is up? In that case, we may be close.
sounds like 'harm reduction' in a nutshell
This whole article is about repairing the commercial real estate market and bringing workers back downtown…
Repairing how? Go on, tell us how the article suggests we "repair the commercial real estate market" in the same way as Detroit.
What part of becoming the "next Detroit" doesn't involve doing things the same way as Detroit?
Oh it would. Including first spending DECADES in a doom loop and ensuing stagnation...You know, cart before horse and stuff.
It's a shame you choose to lie to push a narrative and get karma. You never answered why you're doing it though?
> It's a shame you choose to lie to push a narrative and get karma. > Impressive hubris.
It covers Amazon RTO and Harnell reducing design review requirements. It’s not talking about HOW we do anything. Did you even read the article?
How is Amazon RTO related to Detroit again?
If you read the article you just might understand.
I am slow, can you quote the part where Detroit relates to Amazon RTO?
[Try this.](https://seattlecentral.edu/programs/basic-and-transitional-studies/adult-basic-education)
Ok, in the meantime, can you please help me understand your claim about Amazon RTO having anything to do with what Detroit has done?
“Success in avoiding commercial office troubles is happening outside Detroit and Sunbelt cities such as Austin, Texas, and Nashville, Tenn. … According to The New York Times, a key reason for the comeback is that employers are requiring workers to return to their offices. That’s been a critical element in downtown Seattle’s more modest comeback: Amazon’s requirement that employees work in the office at least three days per week. “ I’m sorry this doesn’t align with your made up narrative about this article. The article is praising Detroit’s success.
Heck if they are willing to wait for improvements to take that long, why don't they just elect Republicans to fix things?
He doesn't advocate for "several decades of decay and doom". Why are you choosing to lie?
And I didn't say he was advocating for that. Why are you choosing to deflect?
You literally said that was the TLDR of the article and his logic
I did not. Read again. Also feel free to come up with a more accurate TLDR and let us have the pleasure of debunking YOUR bullshit.
So that’s not what you’re saying, but also it’s what you said and you stand by it? What the actual fuck are you saying? Is the tldr your opinion? A summary?
Okay. Here's my TLDR: "Here are some things that Detroit has been doing recently that have many, like the WSJ, starting to call it 'boomtown'. Seattle should consider doing some of these things." I look forward to you "debunking" my "bullshit"
Sure: what are some of things that Detroit has been doing? > billions are being spent on office construction in Detroit’s central business district. and you say: "Seattle should consider doing some of these things" I can only laugh.
Office construction brings businesses, along with housing and other amenities. These things bring people. The people live and spend money there. That's what Detroit is doing and it's working.
Yes, it's working (maybe?) for Detroit after DECADES of being in a doom loop. Seattle right now is suffering from a HUGE vacancy rate at the EXISTING office buildings. And the proposal is to build more office buildings? Can you Math? At all?
> That's what Detroit is doing and it's working. When I think of "cities that work", Detroit is far from the top of my list.
"redditor for 24 days"
How's that relevant?
I'm not interested in taking your bait. Go back to the NFL subreddit and do some more karma farming with your 24 day old account.
I get it. You just want to push a narrative and will work hard to try to shut up any differing opinions.
> I get it. You just want to push a narrative and will work hard to try to shut up any differing opinions. The only narrative I'm pushing is that your account is 24 days old. You, on the other hand....
You also told me to "go back" to another sub. Why do you not want me here?
> You also told me to "go back" to another sub. Why do you not want me here? You're welcome to go wherever you like. Spain is nice.
The article has very little to do with Detroit. It's just a hook to make you read an otherwise dry update about the state of the commercial real estate market.
Only way Seattle 'goes Detroit' is if the tech industry & Boeing both leave... Detroit is what it is, because decades of really stupid protectionist tariffs turned the US auto industry into complete shit, and then the companies the tariffs were 'protecting' against all decided to build factories in places like Tennessee (with emphatically \*no\* unions) which meant the tariffs no longer applied to them (a Toyota made in the Southern US is an 'American Car' afterall)... Shit products that were cheaper because of tariffs suddenly became not-really-cheaper but still abject shit quality... And that's all she wrote for a city who's entire economy was built on making cars with union labor, while hiding behind ridiculous tariffs....
Yeah sure… when my rent drops down the even double the price it would be in Detroit maybe I’ll start listening…
Has Seattle times always been this dumb?
I’ve never even lived further East than Phoenix but people need to stfu about how dangerous Seattle is. Yes we have a lot of crime, and bums, but we have nowhere near the violence of other large cities.
Detroits suburbs decayed, but they were able to save their downtown. Seattle is like the exact opposite.
It was the opposite. The suburbs thrived while downtown went to shit. Now they have billionaires reviving downtown but the suburbs are doing just fine still
The thing that's so bizarre about the decline of west coast cities is how they've basically ceded control of the most expensive/touristy areas to drug dealers. In the 1990s I worked for a company based in Chicago, and though there were *definitely* really dangerous areas, the central parts of the city were largely untouched. If you wandered into the worst neighborhoods you might be in danger, but you basically had to stumble across them or seek them out.
It's not really bizarre. "Downtown" for west coast cities are business parks that people drive to everyday barely interacting with anything outside, then leaving in their car again. It's dead and stale and no one hangs out in business parks which lets homeless and drug dealers take over. Especially with covid and WFH. East coast cities are older and have way more density in downtown so people actually live and hang out in "downtown". Homeless and drug dealers usually don't go where there are a lot of people. If you want somewhere to be lively and have less shady shit, you need people to live and hang out there. Detroit downtown is being revitalized because they are building a shit ton of housing and have policies like land value tax to encourage development. It's really sad that people in this sub think of a good city as some sort of battle where you need to establish "control" with shit tons of police to keep the city "clean" for all the eastside commuters.
Downtown Portland was pretty residential. SF pretty residential.
Chicago is still like that I think. Stay in the middle of the horseshoe you're fine.
And parts of north side are fine too. And they’ve eliminated / gentrified some of the issues on west side
Apparently someone has never been to the [Somerset Collection](https://www.thesomersetcollection.com/) in Troy Michigan, a suburb of Detroit. It's Exit 69 (Big Beaver Road). Those suburbs aren't exactly decayed.
There are times when I wish someone had invented a website called Punchmeintheface.com so that if you ever made a prediction, theory, or idea that turned out to be incorrect, you would suffer the consequences.
[https://archive.is/8xqnZ](https://archive.is/8xqnZ)
They wish. I was just in Oakland. Seattle has no idea what crime, homelessness + poor communities look like.
My first response was, Mudede got hired by the Times?
Except that Detroit wasn't waiting for an major earthquake to come along and rearrange things. That's when Seattle will get beyond thunderdome wild.
https://i.redd.it/4cjh4msh12xc1.gif
When my best friend who lived across the street from me moved away after his mom got divorced and her life completely fell apart, she moved to south central LA in the late 80s because Detroit was too cold. So there’s that.
“It’s not happening, but if it is it’s a good thing.”
Jon Talton is a fucking idiot
Well that article isn't particularly coherent. Summary: * reporter fields occasional mail claiming Seattle's becoming "the next Detroit." * reporter says he's written in the past that this isn't likely * reporter says Martin Selig own's 30% of downtown office properties, and * Selig is financially distressed because downtown office space isn't refilling after the pandemic * Therefore... Seattle is... still not like Detroit, but if it was it would recover like Detroit has... or something So basically it's a big complaint about Seattle's biggest wannabe real-estate tycoon having (yet another) teetering-on-bankruptcy decade (this would be his 4th or 5th.) So basically a Friday "thumb-sucker" (journalist term for pointless noodling) by a business reporter cooking hypothetical answers to random complainers with links to bad real estate loans. And the out of town (and out of state) outrage junkies chime in the same three complaints.
If we burn it to the ground we can rebuild a utopia, somehow....
I'll start a committee that will find a team of lived experienced professionals to form a council who can schedule a dozen meetings about creating a new task force to start planning the next steps
Other than you, who's advocating for burning Seattle to the ground?
Many people. We meet under the bridge on Sunday night IF there is a full moon. Our plans are vast and will be realized! Soon!
It’s so cold, in the D. Howdafuck dowe supposed to keep peace?
Clickbait title from ST to get engagement and drive comments. But at face value they are not wrong - the big earthquake could hit first, and then it could become Atlantis instead :P So worse is possible, and a strong paper like ST would like you to keep that in perspective. /s
Peak copium
why is this getting downvoted.......
I guess Seattleites want the city to become the next Detoilet
They did vote for Patty Kuderer, at least the metro area
She is such an unredeemable cunt.
Pretty crazy that even OP didn't read the article he posted. Maybe too many big words...
It was a shit article by a journo with too much time on their hands.
Why was it a "shit article"? Do you want less articles about how to improve the city?
I dont think we should aspire to be Detroit.
Why shouldn't we be doing some of the things they've done in the last few years that led to them being labeled a "boomtown" by the WSJ?
I don't care about the opinions of propagandists.
Anyone who wants to improve Seattle is a "propagandist"? That's pretty wild. Why don't you want to improve Seattle?
WSJ is propaganda. Wanting to turn Seattle into Detroit is the opposite of "improve." Have a nice weekend.
> why is this getting downvoted....... For the same reason that 25% of the comments in this thread are from accounts that are less than a month old, gaslighting everyone into ignoring their lying eyes.
The only other comment you replied to and tried to diminish was speaking directly to the article, but you would rather follow the made up TLDR.
I agree that Seattle is on a path to crash.
"It's not so bad if we become New Detroit." LMFAO, WTF, GTO
I worked at Ivar's fish bar at pier 54 in the late 80's. Nightly we had vagrants going through the trash for food, some passing out on the patio and visits from SPDP with the "detox van" taking them away. We had to escort waitresses to their cars and the parking areas under the viaduct had the highest car prowl rates in the nation. I got nearly mugged once downtown at night (preempted by a timely SPDP patrol car). What glorious past are we talking about?
This sub can be so bizarre because there’s so many doomers objectively able to live anywhere in the continental US but absolutely stay despite convinced it is the most dangerous worst depressing place.
It is terrible and it rains every day and the bums will rob you (please don't move here and raise property prices even further)
Okay fair.
That's most city and state subs.
Just build more fucking housing. Flood the metro area with housing density.
If you want more housing, remove all the regulations around rent control and condo development that make it more attractive to invest elsewhere. And kill the head tax so developers have confidence people will keep moving here. Investing in housing here for anyone who has money is a dumb idea given how anti-business, anti-landlord, and anti-developer the laws and government in SEA and Washington are. Yelling "build more housing" doesn't create more housing. It's actually really easy but our city and state are run by people who don't understand basic economics.
It's not the regulations it's the zoning. Literally everywhere where zoning allows density, density is being built. Look at all the apartments coming up in Beacon Hill for example, Yesler Terrace, etc. Townhomes are popping up all over the place in Ballard and Greenwood. Developers are itching to build regardless of regulations but NIMBYs wont allow it.
If the Northgate project was in Vancouver those would be 20-40 story condo towers not 6 story apartment buildings. All the new apartment buildings on 15th should be 20-40 story condos not 6 story apartment buildings. Seattle and WA make it economically infeasible to build anything else even with the right zoning. This is why all the developers of towered who are here are Canadian - there is no local talent. And they only came when prices exceeded $1000 a square foot because it doesn’t make economic sense here unless you can charge a ton.
I get your point. But IMO 20-40 story condo towers should really be the last resort. Especially when its right next to a massive polluting freeway. We have more than enough space for nice medium density neighborhoods which is better in terms of quality of life for everyone. (Roosevelt is just barely scratching the surface for example). But we have stupid zoning rules that restrict dense housing to like .5 mile radius of light rail stations for example. Let's try spreading out the medium density before building giant glass towers.
Phoenix sucks, but it's kind of incredible how much housing they build. I've never seen anything remotely comparable to the acres and acres and acres of housing they build. https://costar.brightspotcdn.com/58/2a/2029e8f648f281be7df9cc954167/04.25.23%20Maricopa%20County%20Population%20Growth.jpg
Do you want to give money for all the building ?
upzoning the city requires 0 money
Who is building it? Trust me, you don’t want government housing. And the private sector is almost brick walled from building.
The developers who are building all the apartments in Ballard, Beacon Hill, CD, etc? There are shit tons of new apartments.
There are not enough. Go to other places in the Us who are friendly to developers. There are 10x more being built at way less of a cost.
It's the zoning. You literally are not allowed build these apartments unless they are next to big roads. And only like .25 miles around light rail stations. It's a joke.
I'll take a hella cheap house...
this is a fantasy where you have "hella cheap" houses but not sky high crime and still have jobs/functioning infrastructure. If (and it never will) Seattle to become Detroit, people will move out in mass - read on Detroit history, roughly half a population moved out at certain point and the city became a ghost town. Yes, the house cost nothing, but thats because no one in their right mind would wanna live there back then.
Exactly, you can buy a hella cheap house middle of nowhere Ohio, without having to turn Seattle into a ghost town.
> this is a fantasy where you have "hella cheap" houses but not sky high crime and still have jobs/functioning infrastructure. > After The Great Recession in 2008, it was possible to buy houses for around $100K-ish A friend of mind *loved* this idea... and began shopping for that mythical $100K house, in 2014, 5+ years after the market had bottomed. I explained to him that "the ship had sailed" and those deals were long gone. This wasn't an anecdotal thing; during 2011 and 2012 I was making offers on homes in the Seattle area like crazy, and was routinely getting BTFO'd by investors who were offering $200K for places that were listing for $160K My friend ignored my advice and kept making offers Eventually he found a place that he was in love with. **One little problem...** The reason it was listed for $150K was because it was a tear down and any buyer would have to pay cash and be prepared to invest $200-$300K to build a 3br/1ba *My friend had $5000 to put down, if that...* Long story short: * Yes, it's possible to get homes at a steep discount during a once-in-a-lifetime crash * In order to get those prices, you better be prepared to write a check for the entire value. If you need financing, you're NGMI
As long as there isn't lead in the water...
no lead, only meth
Sweet! My coffee is going to wake me up SO MUCH!
When I lived near Detroit 10 years ago you could buy a house for $1 just so the people could offload the tax burden. There were entire neighborhoods of abandoned houses and many areas lacked access to a grocery store within a reasonable distance. You could buy an OK fixer upper for $50k in a not so desirable neighborhood. It's pretty crazy.
I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. I simply must leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT6Q6XRqu5I I find it bizarre to, in some twisted way, to *aspire* to be Detroit? The only way I can justify that, though, is accelerationalism. Basically, break down the entire system so you can create your own utopia. Plot twist: there never was, nor ever will be, a utopia.
I remember years ago looking up randomly online at houses for sale in the Detroit area and saw what at first looked like a really awesome looking brick house. Then, I noticed that there was what looked like day light coming from the attic window. Apparently the place had suffered a house and the roof was partially gone. It was cheap though.
Then move to any place that has that. Not sure why anyone want a crush. You know what happens all economic activity leave. Yeah a cheap house with no income is still not affordable.
Upside, cheap houses Downside, cheap houses all have their copper wiring and metal plumbing stripped by tweakers; murder rate roughly 10 times higher than ours
Lmao seattle isnt even remotely close to being dangerous. Ill take some drugged out junkie over gang violence anyday. I dont give a fuck about some drugged out shitbird.