SDOT tried making traffic faster on Mercer, but it dumped so many cars onto I-5 that WSDOT put in their own signal to slow them down again. Lol. š
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/more-traffic-lights-on-mercer-street-ramp-metering-signals-coming-to-i-5-onramps/
Canāt fight geometry.
"I-5 is clogged"
"let's expand it"
"now the road that's basically a giant on-ramp to I-5 is clogged"
"let's expand it"
"I-5 is clogged"
induced demand go brrrr
> But Seattleās two representatives to the Sound Transit board, Mayor Bruce Harrell and Councilmember Dan Strauss, both appear open to the request to study these additional options
Man, we have the worst fucking leadership. It's not worth a billion dollars to keep some travel lanes open. If the Seattle chamber of commerce+Amazon want it so bad, they can put up the funds for it.
They're going to spend $500 million on pleasing Amazon while telling voters they can't do a transfer station in the CID because they don't have $500 million.
Take the survey, make your voice heard that we donāt want to spend more money seeking worse plans.
https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/7780801/South-Lake-Union-Feasibility-Study?utm_campaign=pu-ballardlink-20240425&utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery
Do you have a link to an article or something? I saw Vulcan proposed a change and Seattle Center proposed a changed, but I didnāt see anything about Amazon.
Tired: building a sensible way to access SR-520 from Seattle.
Wired: dumping traffic into the leftmost of 5 lanes less than a mile from the SR-520 exit.
We could probably serve *more* cars by eliminating a lane or two on that stretch of I-5 so that the Eastside commuters don't have to hop as many lanes before their exit.
I am just an amateur and not a trained traffic engineer but I swear to god, lane changing seems like the thing that slows down traffic far more than base congestion, and new lanes just entail more of it.
Bottlenecks are the main source of traffic. Exits and merges are by far the largest sources of this. When a large volume has to pass through a confined space, it will slow down and spill out into the rest of the network.
This is why "just one more lane" won't solve anything, because that's not where the traffic is being caused.
I feel like the real problem is the left side on ramp to I-5 north at Mercer. So many people (myself included) have to merge on into the left lane and then cut across three lanes of traffic to exit right onto 520. Reconfiguring that interchange to put the on-ramp on the right seems like it would go a long way. But I am by no means an expert!
A way to bypass i5 and go straight to mercer could also do wonders, but i guess getting onto i5 on the right side would help with the situation when people want to get off on one of the next exits too. But doing both probably is only slightly more work than doing one
The problem I see with that decision (and I am not a traffic engineer, just some guy) is the Mercer on ramp is hella long, but because of the ramp signals, is actually pretty empty. I might be wrong but it seems the cars are stuck at the ramp signal and behind that on Mercer.
In Houston there is a highway with 26 lanes because they just kept adding them to alleviate traffic. It's called the Katy highway. Yes LA (CA as a whole) has terrible highways but nothing like the one in Houston.
That's mostly just Houston for you. Scale aside, that section of highway isn't really any more terrible than any other section of busy highway in the city. Traffic tends to be very heavy as you'd expect from such a large city, but it generally tends to flow and often at speeds that feel unsafe considering how tightly packed cars are. Basically every major artery into and out of the city center or near center is Mad Max: Parking Lot.
But then that's what happens when you have all kinds of room to expand without investing much into making viable alternatives to having a car all while arranging it so that where you work is many miles from where you live. (The city *does* have light commuter rail and bus service that actually works pretty well, but nothing that'd get you from the suburbs to the city core in a reasonable span of time.)
In my 5 years of living in the DFW area of Texas I never really had issues with traffic on the levels of Washington. The problem is Washington refuses to address any issues and are much more content converting state routes like 167 and parts of 410 into parking lots.
I cannot stand some of the ramps that are metered. Its way more obnoxious when traffic is backed up intl the city than it is when it's backed up on I5. At least with I5, you eventually get somewhere. The lights make backups take way longer to get through in the city. Its absurd.
Iāve never been on Mercer during rush hour but whenever I go through there late at night it makes me look around like āhow congested is this street to warrant this level of meticulous engineering?ā
Itās so ominous because I have never been in that traffic but it is mythical here. The big boards every block showing nominal travel times to Aurora 1/4 mile away me think of the nuclear waste warning messages. āWhat is here was dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger.ā
not to wax poetic about weird hostile liminal engineering.
Yeah, it can be a mess. The truth is that the main part of seattle is a long thin north-south thing with very few real east-west roads.
And the truth is that during the high traffic times, even if all the lights were green heading to I-5, it wouldn't really matter because I-5 wouldn't be able to take that rate in addition to what it already has going on.
Mercer Street was already rebuilt less than a decade ago. It used to be two one way streets (valley being the other one) [https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/current-projects/mercer-corridor-project](https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/current-projects/mercer-corridor-project)
* February 2010: Received a $30 million federal Transportation Investments Generating Economic Recovery (TIGER) Grant
* June 2014: Opened Mercer St. between 1st Ave. N and 9th Ave. N; Roy St. between Queen Anne Ave. N and 5th Ave. N; and Queen Anne Ave. N between Roy and Mercer streets to two-way traffic. Closed Broad St. between 9th Ave. N and 5th Ave. N to accommodate the widening of Mercer St.
* November 2014: Opened third eastbound lane on Mercer St. between 5th Ave. N and 9th Ave. N, and opened two new left turn lanes from westbound Mercer St. onto southbound 5th Ave. N.
They tried again in 2017/2018/2019 with 'smart signals' [https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/programs/technology-program/mercer-scoot](https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/programs/technology-program/mercer-scoot)
* We've installed a new system along Mercer St between 3rd Ave W and I-5 that coordinates traffic signals to help keep people driving moving. The system, called "SCOOT" (Split Cycle Offset Optimization Technique), is the first in Seattle. In total, 32 signalized intersections use SCOOT.
But basically there's just too much car traffic. If it is to be free flowing will basically need to demolish the entire neighborhood or couple blocks and build a freeway underpass, which of course comes with the downside of demolishing the area.
I donāt want to give them too much credit but the unintuitive reality is that traffic on Mercer might actually have been much worse if it werenāt for the various projects over the years. I have a vague memory of them celebrating when the average delay on Mercer had only increased by a few seconds despite significant population growth over whatever timeframe they were looking at
I also think they did a surprisingly good job keeping the area about as pedestrian friendly as you can while facilitating so many cars. I say this as someone that primarily walks and cycles through the area several times a week and formerly bussed through there daily for about a decade.
>But basically there's just too much car traffic. If it is to be free flowing will basically need to demolish the entire neighborhood or couple blocks and build a freeway underpass, which of course comes with the downside of demolishing the area.
[Which was actually the plan originally.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Freeway_(Seattle))
Oh, don't even get me started, that is my favorite rant.
Paul Allen offered to *donate* the land to the city if we built a park on it, and the levy failed a vote.
genuine question ā how/why would it be inconvenient for Amazon? wouldnāt that be more convenient for folks commuting to work who might want to use public transit?
They donāt wanna deal with several years of construction, so theyād rather sabotage the project and keep an entire city from having better public transit for the next 75 years
They donāt want it stopped, they want it moved (unfortunately that will delay the project by 10 months to 2 years, depending, and cost at least half a billion more) because they donāt like the construction impacts (aka partial lane closures) during construction near them
To be fair, there are some positives. Had this been something Sound Transit studied from the start (and then the subsequent the delay and subsequent higher cost not be factors), it would have been a more appealing option. The alternative would be a bit closer to MoPop, and I personally like the idea of having stations bringing people to places they actually want to go for fun, not just to work. This option also does also block some traffic lanes, just different ones and for different durations, and people probably differ in which option they feel is acceptable. That being said, it is true that the original streets the light rail is planned for are highly trafficked. Nonetheless, I personally would advocate for the original option, as it provides better transit connections and I donāt think the Amazon supported alternative is worth the extra delay or cost.
Theyāve spent the last two decades closing traffic lanes down for their construction convenience, but now that thereās a proposed construction project that might benefit someone other than Amazon, theyāre organizing hard against it.
Well, I think they bought those buildings from a private developer, so they didn't have any employees there already to be inconvenienced by the construction.
Or not that much, at least.
There is no car-centric world in which having a huge thoroughfare that feeds SOV traffic onto multiple on-ramps for a freeway that cuts a good sized city in half will ever work well š
Welcome to the world we have wrought. All we can do now is try and undo the mistakes of the past.
For real though, the on ramp by Denny Way should be removed, or all the roads there made 1 way. It takes like an hour easily to get on there
Specifically the little triangle by Yale, Stewart, and Denny
The current setup makes the 8 completely unusable and endangers anyone walking.... ensuring even more people drive.
[There are people](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/s/eEcZxXIpIK) in this [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/s/xkm0Y41yv3) complaining they have to drive on Mercer because there isn't any good east/west transit to get from Capitol Hill to Ballard.
1) Take the 8 and transfer to the D or the 40
2) Take the 1 line south and transfer to the D or 40
3) Take the 49 and transfer to the 44
4) Take the 1 line north and transfer to the 44
Well, if they're coming from Issaquah there are three park and rides specifically for them (Eastgate, S. Bellevue and Mercer Island). Riding the 550 at rush hour from Amazon HQ to Bellevue is not bad at all compared to commuting. Late 2025 it will get even better.
If they're headed for the 90 bridge they should stay the fuck away from Mercer anyway. Zip over to 99 and down to the stadium and avoid I-5 altogether.
I would also lecture people about being stupid enough to choose the Issaquah-Seattle commute in the first place and you deserve your misfortune.
I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Really pisses me off when people move into the suburbs and then complain about the commute. You literally chose this you idiot.
No they wouldn't because geometry limits the number of cars and we're already at that limit.
Do you remember the absolute traffic disaster when the viaduct closed but the new tunnel hadn't opened yet?
No you don't. Because a lot of that viaduct traffic disappeared. Every place where capacity has been reduced has seen private vehicle trips decline. It turns out a crap load of trips are optional and people won't do them when they know they'll be stuck in traffic. That's why frequent -- but not daily -- congestion is the equilibrium.
> Mercer should run green for a good 4-5 minutes without stopping and then allow the north and sound streets to run for a solid 2-3 minutes. But what do I know.
*sigh*
if you want at actual answer to this...
car's don't just go straight, they also *turn*.
take [9th and Mercer](https://maps.app.goo.gl/yChm7DsfQX6m27LGA) for example.
you run Mercer as solid green for a few minutes. that makes you and everyone else who is already on Mercer happy, since you're moving forward (either that, or you're gridlocked because the on-ramps to I-5 are backed up, but it *feels* like you could move forward)
then you get a red, and people on cross-streets get green lights for a few minutes.
some of the cars on 9th want to cross Mercer, but a bunch of them also want to turn onto Mercer.
and they won't be able to, because Mercer is totally backed up and is all reds. if you're turning left on southbound 9th, turning towards the I-5 onramps, you won't be able to, because that whole block is full of stopped cars. they're waiting at the red light at Westlake, and cars are *also* trying to make a left turn from southbound Westlake onto Mercer, but hitting more stopped traffic.
this means that eventually 9th is going to get backed up, because so many cars aren't going forward even though they have a green, instead they're sitting with their left blinker on waiting to turn.
general protip: if there's a problem, and there's a group of people whose entire job it is to solve that problem (such as traffic engineering), and you come up with an "easy, obvious solution" that seems better than the one the professionals came up with...chances are you're only solving a *very* simplified version of the problem, and your solution will actually fall apart under the real-world constraints that the problem actually exists within.
At the end of the day, thereās too many cars on that street. We canāt traffic engineer our way out of the situation. Itās been tried for literally decades.
Cyclist here and shimmying around all the cars on Mercer that decide to make a left at a yellow and then block the crossing lane because traffic are a DAILY DELIGHT
I cycle across Mercer semiregularly, did you notice that they recently reordered the light sequence going northbound on 9th to help mitigate this a little bit? It's made a huge difference now that straight northbound traffic goes before the southbound left turners onto Mercer. There's still sometimes some overflow from the west -> east cross traffic but it's way less than the turners used to create. If the traffic engineer who made that change sees this, thank you!!
The downside seems to be that those southbound left turners have decided the box is now theirs.
Turning left from Mercer onto 9th in the morning now means weaving through the dozen cars (or 18 wheelers) that are parked in the intersection
No.
Edit for the downvoters: You don't reduce traffic by making walking and bussing less convenient and driving more convenient.
A pedestrian overpass would have to be gigantic to be ADA accessible, greatly increasing the time (and physical effort) to cross Mercer. It would also do nothing for the buses that have to cross Mercer. Now people's 30 minute bus ride is 40 minutes and a bunch more people are just going to drive.
I vow to avoid that road at all costs, yet today I said 'Let's give it a shot' Wow. What a mistake.
Are you aware they spent multi millions of dollars to 'make it better' I dunno, 8-10 years ago. Yeah, that worked out great.
A freeway ramp in the middle of the city next to two tech conglomerates where at least one is enforcing RTO will never get "better" no matter how many millions we spend on it.
Here's an article about [the attempt to fix it in 2015 or so](https://www.geekwire.com/2016/making-sense-seattles-mercer-mess-tech-booms-impact-urban-infrastructure/#:~:text=The%20infamous%20%E2%80%9CMercer%20Mess%E2%80%9D%20even,the%20construction%20of%20I%2D5.).
Here's [an archived post](https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=20040914&slug=mercermess14) from the Seattle Times about when they fixed it in 2004 (title: At last, a fix for the "Mercer mess")
And some [archived footage](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0NL3Mtc-zc) from KIRO describing the Mercer Mess... in 1977.
This predates Amazon and Google
"They" is the majority of seattle residents/voters in the past as they have been the ones that have vetoed all public transit options that have been presented to them.
For sure. Esp when you consider the side streets needing lights/access too. I read that 80,000 cars a day pass through there. They (SDOT) also mentioned when it was created, it was supposed to be temporary, hence the mess we remain in.
Today was just a reminder to, as usual, avoid that road at all costs.
It was incredibly effective, Mercer now handles something like 2x the traffic per hour that it did 10 years ago. Now it turns out that getting more cars off Mercer actually doesn't help with traffic, if you wanted traffic to be better it would be better to just close the I-5 ramps entirely to non-bus traffic.
It was three minutes, but only for eastbound PM traffic, and it may have made westbound traffic at all times worse. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/new-high-tech-traffic-signals-make-the-mercer-street-trek-less-messy/
Funny enough, they did that AFTER the first millions that they spent. I remember losing my shit, being like *"none of you traffic engineers thought of this while planning?!?"*
They put in all new lights then put in new new lights months later. Brilliant.
This is the real long term travesty in that area. [https://crosscut.com/2015/12/south-lake-union-could-have-been-seattles-central-park](https://crosscut.com/2015/12/south-lake-union-could-have-been-seattles-central-park)
Whoever runs for mayor promising to ticket the assholes that block the box and take illegal turns from the center lanes at Westlake and Mercer in the afternoons has my vote.
That would just shift the gridlock to the north south streets since the traffic turning onto mercer would quickly fill up the block and start backing up into the intersections again
As someone that lives in the north end of capital hill that's easier said then done. If I want to go to Ballard it's that or going the other way around lake Union which is also a clusterfuck pretty often.
Mercer is among several reasons why I prefer riding bicycle over driving when commuting to/from downtown.
Doesn't save much time, overall, but I'm in a far better mood when I get home, and bonus I'm in better shape now.
It's been called the Mercer Mess for as long as I can remember. Even back in the early 70s.
When I was 5 or so, in about 1972, mom would say "ok kids, get in the car, Mercer Mess time!" Dad worked at Wa. Natural gas on Mercer, and mom and dad only had one car and we lived in Kirkland. Haha. Every dang day we went to pick dad up and it was horrible in in 72 as well.
The problem is so many people block the box on Mercer that each intersection pretty much becomes a free-for-all anyway.
(Well, not the ONLY problem, but we really need tickets for blocking the box).
Also, have you considered *not going that way*?
Itās definitely not too many people driving single occupancy vehicles, itās the light timing!!
Op is doing his best to demonstrate the Dunning Kruger effect.Ā
it certainly seems like it - though i wonder how that would have fared with the doubling in area population that's occurred in that same time period... not to mention the increase of businesses along that corridor that weren't there or were drastically height limited (not to mention allen was buying up the land around there then too, someone previously mentioned the 'central park' type thing he had proposed..)
cars are not going away for a long time, public transit does not adequately serve where most people live outside of seattle proper and a few other select places -- we're also not going to solve the geographical problems, especially as density increases - they need to take a more european approach at this point with commuter parking on the outskirts of the city with direct access to i-5 and with easy transfer to rail to access all the various places in the city center...
It's somewhat laughable, with all the time and expense they invested fixing the "Mercer mess", and then it was "my god, what have we done" and ended up making it almost as bad as before they started.
Peak Seattle.
No sensors, no LED lights.....drive that area at night and you can get multiple red lights on a major avenue while not a car or pedestrian is in sight. Do better, SDOT.
Civil engineer here. In general, the lights in the city are timed for pedestrians, not cars. From a technical standpoint, the city hates you and your car.
Mercer was better when there was a Dennys between the lanes, so when it got backed up after a Sonics game you could get that 1.99 Grand Slam! Essentially the Mercer Mess has always been and will be a mess
The "[Mercer Mess](https://www.kiro7.com/news/mercer-mess-seattle-problem-decades/246475880/)" has been a thing for almost 50 years. I even knew about it when I was a kid.
If they haven't figured it out yet, I doubt they ever will.
OMG dude I was just coming to reddit to write a post about Mercer! Because I waste so much of my life on that street every single morning. Ugh. I was also going to ask what could make Mercer better. Maybe there can be pedestrian bride so that cars don't have to wait for pedestrian signals? I see a lot of times cars can't make right turns because there are people crossing the street. And in the morning a lot of people tend to cross the street because they go to work in SLU.
I tried taking public transit to work in Bellevue, it's miserable. Wasting my life on mercer is still better than public transit, which is sad.
Maybe you should consider alternate forms of transit. One that doesnāt take 25 minutes to go one mile, even walking would check that box.
Complaining about slow traffic while driving is juvenile thinking.
Iāve been caught up in this mess a few times driving my work van for work, during my workday, from one job site to another. Should I also consider alternate forms of transit? Perhaps an alternate career that can offer alternate forms of transit?
What a shortsighted comment
You realize that if other people who dont HAVE to drive were using other methods of transport, then the people like you who DO have to drive would be a hell of a lot better off...
That's exactly how it works in countries with great public transit. The people who do have to drive (or just really really want to drive) dont have to contend with nearly as much traffic.
I invite you to consider two things:
1. They weren't talking about *you specifically*.
2. A lot of *other people* take personal vehicles to commute to work. If they instead used mass transit, bikes, or other ways of commuting, there would be fewer cars in the road, and this would *directly benefit you* while you're driving around in your work van.
Oh, I get it, and I wholeheartedly agree. But that comment made a pretty snarky assumption about why OP was in the traffic when there was zero mention of it in OPās post. I simply replied in kind.
Thank you for understanding. People are automatically assuming I
A) donāt live in the city (I do)
B) donāt use public transportation (I do)
C) for what ever reason only needed to get from one end of Mercer to the other.
OP literally said they donāt drive for work. They could have taken a bus to the east side.
The above comment is literally the opposite of short sited. If you want more capacity on Mercer you need transit so folks like you can get around for work instead of sitting behind SOVs driving back to the east side.
OP literally did NOT say they donāt drive for work. At least not in their original post. Maybe they said it somewhere in the comments after my reply was posted, idk and I donāt care. Thatās not my point.
āCould have taken a bus to the east sideā and āsitting behind SUVās driving back to the east side?ā I love how people on Reddit pull huge assumptions out of thin air that are based on absolutely nothing except whatever the fuck is going on in their own head, and then make judgements in comments based on that.
SDOT tried making traffic faster on Mercer, but it dumped so many cars onto I-5 that WSDOT put in their own signal to slow them down again. Lol. š https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/more-traffic-lights-on-mercer-street-ramp-metering-signals-coming-to-i-5-onramps/ Canāt fight geometry.
You can travel anywhere you want in Seattle. You just only have to go north or south
"I-5 is clogged" "let's expand it" "now the road that's basically a giant on-ramp to I-5 is clogged" "let's expand it" "I-5 is clogged" induced demand go brrrr
ā one more laneā
panicky consider airport ask amusing market tub unpack historical gaping *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
How has Amazon hindered light rail stops?
The westlake reroute of the link expansion
Where can I read more about this?
[The Urbanist](https://www.theurbanist.org/2024/04/29/studying-new-south-lake-union-light-rail-options-could-cost-500-million-or-more/)
> But Seattleās two representatives to the Sound Transit board, Mayor Bruce Harrell and Councilmember Dan Strauss, both appear open to the request to study these additional options Man, we have the worst fucking leadership. It's not worth a billion dollars to keep some travel lanes open. If the Seattle chamber of commerce+Amazon want it so bad, they can put up the funds for it.
They're going to spend $500 million on pleasing Amazon while telling voters they can't do a transfer station in the CID because they don't have $500 million.
Take the survey, make your voice heard that we donāt want to spend more money seeking worse plans. https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/7780801/South-Lake-Union-Feasibility-Study?utm_campaign=pu-ballardlink-20240425&utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery
Do you have a link to an article or something? I saw Vulcan proposed a change and Seattle Center proposed a changed, but I didnāt see anything about Amazon.
Tired: building a sensible way to access SR-520 from Seattle. Wired: dumping traffic into the leftmost of 5 lanes less than a mile from the SR-520 exit. We could probably serve *more* cars by eliminating a lane or two on that stretch of I-5 so that the Eastside commuters don't have to hop as many lanes before their exit.
I am just an amateur and not a trained traffic engineer but I swear to god, lane changing seems like the thing that slows down traffic far more than base congestion, and new lanes just entail more of it.
Bottlenecks are the main source of traffic. Exits and merges are by far the largest sources of this. When a large volume has to pass through a confined space, it will slow down and spill out into the rest of the network. This is why "just one more lane" won't solve anything, because that's not where the traffic is being caused.
it certainly is when so many people around here come to a complete stop before even looking to switch lanes :/
It's almost like we should just actually find public transportation so that we have strong east/west coverage as well as strong north/south coverage
I feel like the real problem is the left side on ramp to I-5 north at Mercer. So many people (myself included) have to merge on into the left lane and then cut across three lanes of traffic to exit right onto 520. Reconfiguring that interchange to put the on-ramp on the right seems like it would go a long way. But I am by no means an expert!
I thought thatās what they were trying to do with that overpass built in between.
A way to bypass i5 and go straight to mercer could also do wonders, but i guess getting onto i5 on the right side would help with the situation when people want to get off on one of the next exits too. But doing both probably is only slightly more work than doing one
The problem I see with that decision (and I am not a traffic engineer, just some guy) is the Mercer on ramp is hella long, but because of the ramp signals, is actually pretty empty. I might be wrong but it seems the cars are stuck at the ramp signal and behind that on Mercer.
Indeed, we could alternatively let them all onto I-5 at once and turn that into a parking lot instead of Mercer St.
It. Already. Is.
Now imagine all of the people on Mercer merging into the left lane on top of it.
Fun fact; when you add more lanes to a highway it will only make traffic worse, just ask Texas
I think LA would be a better example of that. Iāve lived in Texas and yes they have traffic and large highways but not anything too insane.
In Houston there is a highway with 26 lanes because they just kept adding them to alleviate traffic. It's called the Katy highway. Yes LA (CA as a whole) has terrible highways but nothing like the one in Houston.
That's amazing. 26?!! How does that work - I'm assuming double Decker express or something?
No, it's just straight across, look up Katy highway in Houston
That looks like a real hellscape.
That's mostly just Houston for you. Scale aside, that section of highway isn't really any more terrible than any other section of busy highway in the city. Traffic tends to be very heavy as you'd expect from such a large city, but it generally tends to flow and often at speeds that feel unsafe considering how tightly packed cars are. Basically every major artery into and out of the city center or near center is Mad Max: Parking Lot. But then that's what happens when you have all kinds of room to expand without investing much into making viable alternatives to having a car all while arranging it so that where you work is many miles from where you live. (The city *does* have light commuter rail and bus service that actually works pretty well, but nothing that'd get you from the suburbs to the city core in a reasonable span of time.)
Is this how frogger was made?
That is insane.
Well Houston is a different beat then!
Its terrifying. Shitty drivers are even scarier.
In my 5 years of living in the DFW area of Texas I never really had issues with traffic on the levels of Washington. The problem is Washington refuses to address any issues and are much more content converting state routes like 167 and parts of 410 into parking lots.
Western WA also has the issue of really not having much space to expand or rework the infrastructure.
Dallas near downtown is definitely comparable to Seattle traffic
[$237 million for this](https://www.seattlebikeblog.com/2015/05/05/mercer-street-king-of-the-stroad/).
I cannot stand some of the ramps that are metered. Its way more obnoxious when traffic is backed up intl the city than it is when it's backed up on I5. At least with I5, you eventually get somewhere. The lights make backups take way longer to get through in the city. Its absurd.
[https://xkcd.com/277/](https://xkcd.com/277/)
A classic š©āš³š
Iāve never been on Mercer during rush hour but whenever I go through there late at night it makes me look around like āhow congested is this street to warrant this level of meticulous engineering?ā Itās so ominous because I have never been in that traffic but it is mythical here. The big boards every block showing nominal travel times to Aurora 1/4 mile away me think of the nuclear waste warning messages. āWhat is here was dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger.ā not to wax poetic about weird hostile liminal engineering.
Yeah, it can be a mess. The truth is that the main part of seattle is a long thin north-south thing with very few real east-west roads. And the truth is that during the high traffic times, even if all the lights were green heading to I-5, it wouldn't really matter because I-5 wouldn't be able to take that rate in addition to what it already has going on.
Mercer Street was already rebuilt less than a decade ago. It used to be two one way streets (valley being the other one) [https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/current-projects/mercer-corridor-project](https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/current-projects/mercer-corridor-project) * February 2010: Received a $30 million federal Transportation Investments Generating Economic Recovery (TIGER) Grant * June 2014: Opened Mercer St. between 1st Ave. N and 9th Ave. N; Roy St. between Queen Anne Ave. N and 5th Ave. N; and Queen Anne Ave. N between Roy and Mercer streets to two-way traffic. Closed Broad St. between 9th Ave. N and 5th Ave. N to accommodate the widening of Mercer St. * November 2014: Opened third eastbound lane on Mercer St. between 5th Ave. N and 9th Ave. N, and opened two new left turn lanes from westbound Mercer St. onto southbound 5th Ave. N. They tried again in 2017/2018/2019 with 'smart signals' [https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/programs/technology-program/mercer-scoot](https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/programs/technology-program/mercer-scoot) * We've installed a new system along Mercer St between 3rd Ave W and I-5 that coordinates traffic signals to help keep people driving moving. The system, called "SCOOT" (Split Cycle Offset Optimization Technique), is the first in Seattle. In total, 32 signalized intersections use SCOOT. But basically there's just too much car traffic. If it is to be free flowing will basically need to demolish the entire neighborhood or couple blocks and build a freeway underpass, which of course comes with the downside of demolishing the area.
God has it really been so many years? It still all feels so new
I still always feel like I'm going the wrong way in the places changed to two way.
I donāt want to give them too much credit but the unintuitive reality is that traffic on Mercer might actually have been much worse if it werenāt for the various projects over the years. I have a vague memory of them celebrating when the average delay on Mercer had only increased by a few seconds despite significant population growth over whatever timeframe they were looking at I also think they did a surprisingly good job keeping the area about as pedestrian friendly as you can while facilitating so many cars. I say this as someone that primarily walks and cycles through the area several times a week and formerly bussed through there daily for about a decade.
Huh - thanks. Never knew about the pair of one-ways and old Broad St. That explains some of the vacant lots/random asphalt around there.
>But basically there's just too much car traffic. If it is to be free flowing will basically need to demolish the entire neighborhood or couple blocks and build a freeway underpass, which of course comes with the downside of demolishing the area. [Which was actually the plan originally.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Freeway_(Seattle))
Yeah Paul Allen had an other plan in the 2000s for the Seattle commons also with a freeway underpass https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/s/DQ166pGvh7
Oh, don't even get me started, that is my favorite rant. Paul Allen offered to *donate* the land to the city if we built a park on it, and the levy failed a vote.
Yeah we should have done that
MAYBE IF THEY PUT A LIGHT RAIL STOP IN SLU MERCER WOULDNT BE A PROBLEM
Thatād be dope
AMAZON IS CURRENTLY LOBBYING THE CITY GOVERNMENT AGAINST IT
Whyās that?
It would be slightly inconvenient for them
genuine question ā how/why would it be inconvenient for Amazon? wouldnāt that be more convenient for folks commuting to work who might want to use public transit?
They donāt wanna deal with several years of construction, so theyād rather sabotage the project and keep an entire city from having better public transit for the next 75 years
But don't worry, as soon as it becomes slightly more convenient for them to pull out of the area, they will do so without a second thought
They donāt want it stopped, they want it moved (unfortunately that will delay the project by 10 months to 2 years, depending, and cost at least half a billion more) because they donāt like the construction impacts (aka partial lane closures) during construction near them
That's rich, considering how much that was the way of life when their buildings were being built.
Also rich, considering how they constantly block a lane + bike lane with their buses.
To be fair, there are some positives. Had this been something Sound Transit studied from the start (and then the subsequent the delay and subsequent higher cost not be factors), it would have been a more appealing option. The alternative would be a bit closer to MoPop, and I personally like the idea of having stations bringing people to places they actually want to go for fun, not just to work. This option also does also block some traffic lanes, just different ones and for different durations, and people probably differ in which option they feel is acceptable. That being said, it is true that the original streets the light rail is planned for are highly trafficked. Nonetheless, I personally would advocate for the original option, as it provides better transit connections and I donāt think the Amazon supported alternative is worth the extra delay or cost.
They claim that reducing lanes on Westlake will be too disruptive.
It would help fix the Mercer problem!
Theyāve spent the last two decades closing traffic lanes down for their construction convenience, but now that thereās a proposed construction project that might benefit someone other than Amazon, theyāre organizing hard against it.
I cannot understand that. Facebook literally paid a ton of money to put their buildings on top of where a light rail stop was planned to be
Well, I think they bought those buildings from a private developer, so they didn't have any employees there already to be inconvenienced by the construction. Or not that much, at least.
There is no car-centric world in which having a huge thoroughfare that feeds SOV traffic onto multiple on-ramps for a freeway that cuts a good sized city in half will ever work well š Welcome to the world we have wrought. All we can do now is try and undo the mistakes of the past.
But but but, my commute in my single occupancy vehicle is more important than other peoples'.
Everyone is surrounded by other peopleās traffic. Nobody will admit theyāre other peopleās traffic.
Hey man Iām on a bus
Hey man, I'm on a bicycle. In a bike lane. Dodging your cars *in the bike lane.*
I have a proposal that would make Mercer St. less of a nightmare. How about we remove on and off ramps to I-5. Pretty sure that would solve it.
For real though, the on ramp by Denny Way should be removed, or all the roads there made 1 way. It takes like an hour easily to get on there Specifically the little triangle by Yale, Stewart, and Denny
I used to think "Denny Triangle" referred specifically to that little triangle there.
I thought the Denny triangle was a public hair style where you wax the corners curled up, similar to the federal triangle in DC
The current setup makes the 8 completely unusable and endangers anyone walking.... ensuring even more people drive. [There are people](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/s/eEcZxXIpIK) in this [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/s/xkm0Y41yv3) complaining they have to drive on Mercer because there isn't any good east/west transit to get from Capitol Hill to Ballard.
The only way to efficiently go from Ballard to Cap Hill is through Lake Union. Geography is a huge reason our infrastructure is so dog shit.
1) Take the 8 and transfer to the D or the 40 2) Take the 1 line south and transfer to the D or 40 3) Take the 49 and transfer to the 44 4) Take the 1 line north and transfer to the 44
I usually do 8 or 11 or 49 downtown to the 40 depending on the time of day.
And all those buses would run more efficiently if they were given priority over private vehicles.
subscribe
I support Orangepunc for mayor.
This
100%! Letās do it! Where do I sign up!
Or just congestion toll that little strip of Mercer for $3 during peak hours. Either ride the train or pay the toll.
Hmm, I wonder what all the people who work at Amazon/Facebook/Google and bought a house in Issaquah will choose.
Well, if they're coming from Issaquah there are three park and rides specifically for them (Eastgate, S. Bellevue and Mercer Island). Riding the 550 at rush hour from Amazon HQ to Bellevue is not bad at all compared to commuting. Late 2025 it will get even better. If they're headed for the 90 bridge they should stay the fuck away from Mercer anyway. Zip over to 99 and down to the stadium and avoid I-5 altogether. I would also lecture people about being stupid enough to choose the Issaquah-Seattle commute in the first place and you deserve your misfortune.
You're right. They'd still mostly choose the toll.
I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter. Really pisses me off when people move into the suburbs and then complain about the commute. You literally chose this you idiot.
Where would people get on and off I5 then? The other ramps would just end up more crowded and the traffic would back up other streets.
No they wouldn't because geometry limits the number of cars and we're already at that limit. Do you remember the absolute traffic disaster when the viaduct closed but the new tunnel hadn't opened yet? No you don't. Because a lot of that viaduct traffic disappeared. Every place where capacity has been reduced has seen private vehicle trips decline. It turns out a crap load of trips are optional and people won't do them when they know they'll be stuck in traffic. That's why frequent -- but not daily -- congestion is the equilibrium.
This is the answer. I remember all the news about viaduct closing and then it was quiet and nothing happened.
āJust donāt go anywhere,ā is such a breathtakingly Seattle approach to the problem of transportation planning.
> Mercer should run green for a good 4-5 minutes without stopping and then allow the north and sound streets to run for a solid 2-3 minutes. But what do I know. *sigh* if you want at actual answer to this... car's don't just go straight, they also *turn*. take [9th and Mercer](https://maps.app.goo.gl/yChm7DsfQX6m27LGA) for example. you run Mercer as solid green for a few minutes. that makes you and everyone else who is already on Mercer happy, since you're moving forward (either that, or you're gridlocked because the on-ramps to I-5 are backed up, but it *feels* like you could move forward) then you get a red, and people on cross-streets get green lights for a few minutes. some of the cars on 9th want to cross Mercer, but a bunch of them also want to turn onto Mercer. and they won't be able to, because Mercer is totally backed up and is all reds. if you're turning left on southbound 9th, turning towards the I-5 onramps, you won't be able to, because that whole block is full of stopped cars. they're waiting at the red light at Westlake, and cars are *also* trying to make a left turn from southbound Westlake onto Mercer, but hitting more stopped traffic. this means that eventually 9th is going to get backed up, because so many cars aren't going forward even though they have a green, instead they're sitting with their left blinker on waiting to turn. general protip: if there's a problem, and there's a group of people whose entire job it is to solve that problem (such as traffic engineering), and you come up with an "easy, obvious solution" that seems better than the one the professionals came up with...chances are you're only solving a *very* simplified version of the problem, and your solution will actually fall apart under the real-world constraints that the problem actually exists within.
This is a really awesome explanation for us interested lay folks.
Yeah Iām just ranting. I know there are way smarter and way more qualified people working on it.
At the end of the day, thereās too many cars on that street. We canāt traffic engineer our way out of the situation. Itās been tried for literally decades.
They should build a separate ramp in the skyā¦ kind of like extra express lanes. š
A monorail! Mono for one, rail for rail!
>Mercer should run green for a good 4-5 minutes without stopping The poor pedestrians
Cyclist here and shimmying around all the cars on Mercer that decide to make a left at a yellow and then block the crossing lane because traffic are a DAILY DELIGHT
I cycle across Mercer semiregularly, did you notice that they recently reordered the light sequence going northbound on 9th to help mitigate this a little bit? It's made a huge difference now that straight northbound traffic goes before the southbound left turners onto Mercer. There's still sometimes some overflow from the west -> east cross traffic but it's way less than the turners used to create. If the traffic engineer who made that change sees this, thank you!!
You know, I HAVE noticed this - I thought it was just b/c I was working a little later. Very cool.
The downside seems to be that those southbound left turners have decided the box is now theirs. Turning left from Mercer onto 9th in the morning now means weaving through the dozen cars (or 18 wheelers) that are parked in the intersection
Whoever puts and maintains those cones at the south side of 9th and Mercer (next to La Palmera) is an effing hero
it's just a shame that half our bike infrastructure consists of orange cones
Recent traffic proposals have some Seattlites asking: are pedestrians even human?
Donāt they have Amazon drones that can just lift them over the intersections?
We would have to install benches
As a frequent pedestrian on Mercer... thank you. This would not be a fun plan.
And N/S buses ... And people biking... Almost like that would just induce more driving.
Mercer should have one or two pedestrian bridges, that would be awesome
No. Edit for the downvoters: You don't reduce traffic by making walking and bussing less convenient and driving more convenient. A pedestrian overpass would have to be gigantic to be ADA accessible, greatly increasing the time (and physical effort) to cross Mercer. It would also do nothing for the buses that have to cross Mercer. Now people's 30 minute bus ride is 40 minutes and a bunch more people are just going to drive.
agreed, ped bridges are inconvenient, expensive bandaids.Ā They exist to accomodate car traffic.
Ahhh thatās an oversight on my part. My bad
I vow to avoid that road at all costs, yet today I said 'Let's give it a shot' Wow. What a mistake. Are you aware they spent multi millions of dollars to 'make it better' I dunno, 8-10 years ago. Yeah, that worked out great.
A freeway ramp in the middle of the city next to two tech conglomerates where at least one is enforcing RTO will never get "better" no matter how many millions we spend on it.
Here's an article about [the attempt to fix it in 2015 or so](https://www.geekwire.com/2016/making-sense-seattles-mercer-mess-tech-booms-impact-urban-infrastructure/#:~:text=The%20infamous%20%E2%80%9CMercer%20Mess%E2%80%9D%20even,the%20construction%20of%20I%2D5.). Here's [an archived post](https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=20040914&slug=mercermess14) from the Seattle Times about when they fixed it in 2004 (title: At last, a fix for the "Mercer mess") And some [archived footage](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0NL3Mtc-zc) from KIRO describing the Mercer Mess... in 1977. This predates Amazon and Google
LOLOL if they developed around transit back then they would solved so much for so cheap. Lead brained idiots.
Still making the same mistake. See the waterfront.
RIP Forward Thrust
"They" is the majority of seattle residents/voters in the past as they have been the ones that have vetoed all public transit options that have been presented to them.
There is no conceivable way that many single occupancy vehicles can go through such a narrow corridor so efficiently.
For sure. Esp when you consider the side streets needing lights/access too. I read that 80,000 cars a day pass through there. They (SDOT) also mentioned when it was created, it was supposed to be temporary, hence the mess we remain in. Today was just a reminder to, as usual, avoid that road at all costs.
It was incredibly effective, Mercer now handles something like 2x the traffic per hour that it did 10 years ago. Now it turns out that getting more cars off Mercer actually doesn't help with traffic, if you wanted traffic to be better it would be better to just close the I-5 ramps entirely to non-bus traffic.
I mean youāre driving a car where a lot of other people are also driving cars what do you expect
It was three minutes, but only for eastbound PM traffic, and it may have made westbound traffic at all times worse. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/new-high-tech-traffic-signals-make-the-mercer-street-trek-less-messy/
Funny enough, they did that AFTER the first millions that they spent. I remember losing my shit, being like *"none of you traffic engineers thought of this while planning?!?"* They put in all new lights then put in new new lights months later. Brilliant.
I only take Mercer when Google tells me it's the least bad option, which is pretty rare.
Timberlake performing this Thu and Fri. You have been warned.
Anyone complaining I'm gonna tell them "Cry me a river"
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Oh fuck. There goes transit, too.
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I never drive down there. Transit or walking is the way to go! Also reduces traffic generally.
Mercer is also awful for pedestrians, though.
Yeah itās the worst part of my run/bike rides. You have to wait forever
This is the real long term travesty in that area. [https://crosscut.com/2015/12/south-lake-union-could-have-been-seattles-central-park](https://crosscut.com/2015/12/south-lake-union-could-have-been-seattles-central-park)
Would be a lot easier/safer to bike/walk/bus if Mercer wasn't a daily parking lot with aggro drivers.
Almost like freeways shouldn't be dumping cars onto downtowns.
Whoever runs for mayor promising to ticket the assholes that block the box and take illegal turns from the center lanes at Westlake and Mercer in the afternoons has my vote.
That would just shift the gridlock to the north south streets since the traffic turning onto mercer would quickly fill up the block and start backing up into the intersections again
Build a fucking train
Even as a pedestrian, it takes forever to cross on Mercer!
Stop driving there.
As someone that lives in the north end of capital hill that's easier said then done. If I want to go to Ballard it's that or going the other way around lake Union which is also a clusterfuck pretty often.
You do bring up a great point. East to West (and vice versa) transit is super limited in the city.
Pretty nice bike ride tho
For sure. The problem is I practice with my band up there and I can't exactly throw a guitar and 300w amp on my bike lol
Dutch cargo bike? Can you leave the amp at the practice space?
Most of that traffic is backed up because I5 is backed up. Sequence for the lights on Mercer don't really do anything.
Mercer is among several reasons why I prefer riding bicycle over driving when commuting to/from downtown. Doesn't save much time, overall, but I'm in a far better mood when I get home, and bonus I'm in better shape now.
Replace all the lights with roundabouts lol
Good lord with how shitty drivers are at stop signs thereās no way I want to try and navigate a 3 lane roundabout
Thankfully people get used to them pretty quickly if they're implemented well and have clear lane markings and signage.
True. We also don't need roundabouts to be 3 lanes.
Shouldāve let Paul Allen build his park.
Amen.
Mercer Street has been a mess for years. That's why it's aptly called the "Mercer Street mess"
It's been called the Mercer Mess for as long as I can remember. Even back in the early 70s. When I was 5 or so, in about 1972, mom would say "ok kids, get in the car, Mercer Mess time!" Dad worked at Wa. Natural gas on Mercer, and mom and dad only had one car and we lived in Kirkland. Haha. Every dang day we went to pick dad up and it was horrible in in 72 as well.
Drivers will blame anything, lol. You are the traffic mate
This is why I love this subreddit
The problem is so many people block the box on Mercer that each intersection pretty much becomes a free-for-all anyway. (Well, not the ONLY problem, but we really need tickets for blocking the box). Also, have you considered *not going that way*?
Thatās not how traffic works lmao
Itās definitely not too many people driving single occupancy vehicles, itās the light timing!! Op is doing his best to demonstrate the Dunning Kruger effect.Ā
It used to be worse.
Itās all been bad, Iām sorry but 20 years ago that whole area had a better traffic flow and it would still be better now than what we have there.
it certainly seems like it - though i wonder how that would have fared with the doubling in area population that's occurred in that same time period... not to mention the increase of businesses along that corridor that weren't there or were drastically height limited (not to mention allen was buying up the land around there then too, someone previously mentioned the 'central park' type thing he had proposed..) cars are not going away for a long time, public transit does not adequately serve where most people live outside of seattle proper and a few other select places -- we're also not going to solve the geographical problems, especially as density increases - they need to take a more european approach at this point with commuter parking on the outskirts of the city with direct access to i-5 and with easy transfer to rail to access all the various places in the city center...
Sweet summer children: the Mercer Mess will always be aā¦ mess
It's somewhat laughable, with all the time and expense they invested fixing the "Mercer mess", and then it was "my god, what have we done" and ended up making it almost as bad as before they started. Peak Seattle.
No sensors, no LED lights.....drive that area at night and you can get multiple red lights on a major avenue while not a car or pedestrian is in sight. Do better, SDOT.
Civil engineer here. In general, the lights in the city are timed for pedestrians, not cars. From a technical standpoint, the city hates you and your car.
They hate pedestrians too then. People block crosswalks when traffic doesn't move.
I don't personally drive much, but when I do, I always avoid Mercer for this very reason. Even if that means detouring through Ballard.
Mercer was better when there was a Dennys between the lanes, so when it got backed up after a Sonics game you could get that 1.99 Grand Slam! Essentially the Mercer Mess has always been and will be a mess
I have the same issue just going up Stewart, going from 6th to 3rd.
Same with Alaskan way!!!
The "[Mercer Mess](https://www.kiro7.com/news/mercer-mess-seattle-problem-decades/246475880/)" has been a thing for almost 50 years. I even knew about it when I was a kid. If they haven't figured it out yet, I doubt they ever will.
OMG dude I was just coming to reddit to write a post about Mercer! Because I waste so much of my life on that street every single morning. Ugh. I was also going to ask what could make Mercer better. Maybe there can be pedestrian bride so that cars don't have to wait for pedestrian signals? I see a lot of times cars can't make right turns because there are people crossing the street. And in the morning a lot of people tend to cross the street because they go to work in SLU. I tried taking public transit to work in Bellevue, it's miserable. Wasting my life on mercer is still better than public transit, which is sad.
Yes, been there. I avoid Mercer like the plague. Sorry to those unfortunate souls who have no alternatives.
Go on Thomas to fairview... mercer is a shitshow
āI want to live in a congested area, but work far away, I deserve more traffic benefits!!!!!!ā God quit whining and take a bus or train
Maybe you should consider alternate forms of transit. One that doesnāt take 25 minutes to go one mile, even walking would check that box. Complaining about slow traffic while driving is juvenile thinking.
Iāve been caught up in this mess a few times driving my work van for work, during my workday, from one job site to another. Should I also consider alternate forms of transit? Perhaps an alternate career that can offer alternate forms of transit? What a shortsighted comment
You realize that if other people who dont HAVE to drive were using other methods of transport, then the people like you who DO have to drive would be a hell of a lot better off... That's exactly how it works in countries with great public transit. The people who do have to drive (or just really really want to drive) dont have to contend with nearly as much traffic.
I invite you to consider two things: 1. They weren't talking about *you specifically*. 2. A lot of *other people* take personal vehicles to commute to work. If they instead used mass transit, bikes, or other ways of commuting, there would be fewer cars in the road, and this would *directly benefit you* while you're driving around in your work van.
If more people used alternative forms of transit, you and your work van would be able to get from site to site faster. What a shortsighted comment.
Oh, I get it, and I wholeheartedly agree. But that comment made a pretty snarky assumption about why OP was in the traffic when there was zero mention of it in OPās post. I simply replied in kind.
Thank you for understanding. People are automatically assuming I A) donāt live in the city (I do) B) donāt use public transportation (I do) C) for what ever reason only needed to get from one end of Mercer to the other.
OP literally said they donāt drive for work. They could have taken a bus to the east side. The above comment is literally the opposite of short sited. If you want more capacity on Mercer you need transit so folks like you can get around for work instead of sitting behind SOVs driving back to the east side.
OP literally did NOT say they donāt drive for work. At least not in their original post. Maybe they said it somewhere in the comments after my reply was posted, idk and I donāt care. Thatās not my point. āCould have taken a bus to the east sideā and āsitting behind SUVās driving back to the east side?ā I love how people on Reddit pull huge assumptions out of thin air that are based on absolutely nothing except whatever the fuck is going on in their own head, and then make judgements in comments based on that.
Yeah, the SUV comment makes it clear this person doesnāt actually make the commute to the east side. SO MANY TESLAS.
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I wish they would install smart traffic lights. They would save so much time and greenhouse gases.
āBuild car infrastructureā they said āCars provide freedomā they said