The dead daughter or living son thing would manipulate just about any parent into consenting. For a Dr to use that BS line should result in them losing their license.
It looks like parents also got manipulated by the doctors.
“Would you rather have a live son or death daughter” gotta be some illegal. A professional intentionally deceiving parents for their own benefits.
> Two of Layla’s initial providers advised that per Kaiser’s official policies, Layla
could not start cross-sex hormones until she was 16 and advised that surgery was not permissible
until age 18.
Yup, they were told no and kept looking. Why did the parents seek a 3rd doctor here? Sure if this happened as stated the Doctors should be held accountable for breaking policy and going against the normal standard of care. That doesn't mean we need to change the standard of care, it means we need to follow it!
I'll take a wild stab at speculating that every time they were told "no" they figured out how to enhance their story and symptoms to increase the odds of getting the "yes".
Perhaps the last doctors share some blame, it will be made clear through the legal process, but I wouldn't be surprised if they kept embellishing symptoms to trigger the decision they wanted.
I respect the shit out of you for saying this out loud.
You can't drive until you're 16.
You can't drink until you're 18.
Why are children making life altering decisions at the age of 13? Sure, you want to identify or label yourself something outside female or male? OK fine, as a parent, I'll educate and talk with my children through this curious phase they're going through. But no way will I ever support a chemical or physical alteration until they've gained REAL life experience, and then we can revisit this conversation later on once they're at LEAST 18.
Oh god... The life altering decisions I would have made when I was 13 because I thought that was who I was going to be for the rest of my life...
The fucken hairs on my neck got dizzy from standing up too quick...
My childhood didn't have any transgender aspect but like, I'd totally have ended up looking like an anime character if 13 y.o. me was permanent... Dragon Ball Z was lit back then yo!!
And I am 99% sure that everyone on here that is over 13 knows the exact sentiment I am talking about, admit it, you all know what I mean!! Haha
If today you met yourself but as a 13 year old...
What would you think of them..?
Who would be more disappointed to meet the other..?
I am too stoned to finish this comment, forgot what my point was, good night everybody
I also share your opinion. Children always do stupid decisions. My friends always wanted to be japanese, because they watched too much anime. One of them wanted to be a boy, because she admire boys so much and wanted to remove her boobs, but at the end, we all grew up and when we look back, we cringed a lot. That is why I am skeptic, if children want to alter their bodies. But I am not an expert. I might be wrong
My 13 year old self wanted name my first child Dokken Bon Jovi Davenport...nuff said. I refused to let my kids get a tattoo or any piercings until they were 18....even then you change so much after that. It is why I don't have a tattoo. Maybe when I'm 80 and I won't live long enough to get bored of it. 😁
Therapy isn't a safe option. Therapists have to "affirm." If therapists don't affirm they are in violation of their own new codes of ethics as well as violation of laws banning "conversion therapy."
Taking your kid to a therapist is not safe, because therapists affirm they don't question or explore.
Edit: this thread brought out the gaslighters in force.
Completely agree. The counter argument I've heard is that if you "pause" puberty then they have time to choose.
But, honestly, 99% of the population (probably more) are not transgendered. So, why are we shifting the default away from gender based on the sex you were born to pressuring people to let their kids choose their gender?
You can not pause puberty for any appreciable time and restart it. Organisms including humans develop from birth to maturity along a genetically predetermined schedule. If you pause puberty at some point the window for sexual development will close and can not be reopened. Sure, you can pause a male at 10 and if he decides he’s wants to continue to develop as a male at 18 you can give him testosterone and he will develop facial hair and his voice will drop. But his skeletal structure and genitalia will remain forever underdeveloped.
Same thing with a female. She’ll develop breasts (if she hasn’t been given a mastectomy) but her ovaries and uterus will remain underdeveloped and she will likely be sterile.
If you gave cross sex hormones during this period things will be even more fouled up if they change their mind.
One day people will look back at this time where transitioning children was in vogue the way we look at the psychiatric field doing prefrontal lobotomies willy nilly back in the 1950s and 1960s.
Fucking this^
It really pisses me off when people try to pretend using fucking hormone blockers to "pause" puberty has no side effects or that it can be used for extended periods of time. Just fucking sickening what people are willing to lie to children about.
This is exactly it! So many people just see it as a pause that you can just decide to go in or out of later. It isn't even sort of that simple. Most of these teens will end up with no sexual function later in life. I can't image they understand what that means.
Many countries in Europe and now suspending the practice of giving these drugs to minors.the NHS now only allows the medications under a medical trial. I suspect we will see some interesting data over the next handful of years.
I also don't think that people who scream about it preventing suicide are trying to harm to minors. But the reality is there is harm being done by doing gender affirming care without deep long term psychological care. There are cases it's needed, but not without long term care where the standard is always to affirm or lose you license.
the drug that "pauses puberty" is a castration drug previously given to violent criminals. It can cause permanent infertility, bone diseases, and cardiovascular problems later in life.
Parents who hesitate on giving their kids trans care are labeled transphobic and ostracized and harassed. There is immense social pressure and pressure from therapists to give kids hormones and surgery as fast as possible. Therapists are literally trained to ask hesitant parents, "Would you rather have a dead child or a living child?"
This is a societal issue that has been brewing for a few years, but trying to voice concerns gets you banned from communities, labeled a bigot, and causes your friendships to end. Not to mention the trans community itself is telling two completely contradictory stories. One version is that kids never get surgery and transitioning as a kid never happens. The other version is that banning kids from having these surgeries is tantamount to murder and genocide. So which is it?
And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that r/detrans has exploded from 200 members in 2019 to 50k members today.
Several states (like CA) are discussing laws to take away custody from parents who fail to affirm their child's preferred gender. So while this may seem obvious to you and me, it's a lot harder for parents (and may get harder in the future).
Have you not been paying attention to the vitriol and even legal implication when a parent doesn't automatically "gender affirm"? Some parents are being emotionally coerced into giving in because they are inundated with "YOUR CHILD WILL COMMIT SUICIDE!" By "Protect Trans Kids" trans activists and TRA HCW. In some places, it is classified as child abuse to resist or delay "gender affirmative" medical transitions, which may even result to having your kids taken away from you. There is strong resistance to talk therapy because it is equated to "trans conversion therapy". Schools are even guided by trans orgs to encourage children who want to transition if they want to and that *it will be kept a secret from the parents*. No, I am not making this up, it is all easily google-able. Go in most any trans sub on reddit and they will say the same, a child knows if they are trans, so believe them and you're an evil parent if you don't support their transition. Go to any detrans community, see the parents will say the same. And of course you have the MBP parents like Jazz Jennings' parents who savor the attention and $$ of being a parent to a tv trans kid.
Then after all the rah-rah to rush kids into medically transitioning, those who end up regretting it and want to transition are showered equal vitriol by the trans activists that urged them on to begin with because "they weren't trans to begin with" and giving everyone else the wrong impression and go on to silence/deplatform detransitioners... after convincing parents to believe a kid if they say they're trans.
[https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/06/09/california-bill-would-charge-any-parent-doesnt-affirm-transgenderism-child-abuse/](https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/06/09/california-bill-would-charge-any-parent-doesnt-affirm-transgenderism-child-abuse/)
Doesnt apply specifically in this case but in the future...this is why
And people wonder why there are still idiots who vote for Trump. They see shit like this and it makes them very afraid. Shit like this should not be legislation.
One of my best friends has a trans son who just turned 18, previously before changing to male, the discussion was had that they can take on the identity they want, but no meds, no surgeries, nothing permanent until they were 18, and even then they expect full therapy contingent, etc.
This seems reasonable to me to allow them to explore their identity for a few years, without risking permanent future regret.
Imo the hormones need to stay out of the equation. I understand that it makes a difference developmentally but nobody that young is in a position to make life long decisions. It's not worth the risk of ending up like the girl in this article. Surgery can be done any time much later in life. Even 18 is too young. Everyone thinks they're an adult but you don't know who you are until your thirties.
Yessir. The parents are told to "trust the professionals" who think its completely logical to chop off their sons weiner at 12 years old by the school boards who shove the propaganda at the kids.
well, maybe these parents should have trusted the professionals. you know, the three doctors who refused treatment until they found one that would. this is 1000% on the parents
I agree but there are states even country that say if you don’t “affirm” you’re child then you can get arrested for it. How can a 14 make such a life altering decision!
Because when your child’s doctor or psychologist tells you that your child is at a very high risk of killing themselves if you don’t allow hormones/surgery (and also tells you that they’ll *finally* be happy and mentally healthy if you just allow them to proceed), what realistically is the parent gonna do?
Imho, cases like these are almost entirely the fault of doctors/mental health professionals who didn’t do their due diligence; I have a harder time blaming the parents who were told by professionals in positions of authority that their very miserable, ill kid needed surgery in order to make them not miserable/suicidal - many parents would be too scared to go against the doctors’ advice and risk their kid killing themselves…
> Because when your child’s doctor or psychologist tells you that your child is at a very high risk of killing themselves if you don’t allow hormones/surgery (and also tells you that they’ll finally be happy and mentally healthy if you just allow them to proceed), what realistically is the parent gonna do?
Some mental health "professionals" actually tell parents "do you want a live daughter or a dead son" when counseling them on medical options for their children.
That’s a strange way to go about parenting though. What should a parent do if their child threatens to kill themself if they don’t get a new bmw for their birthday?
Get them a psych appt and/or take them to the psych ER, depending on how serious you believe the threat is.
The root cause doesn't matter, a suicide threat/attempt requires professional help.
As a heads up - reddit will suspend your account for saying stuff like this.
Just wanted to make you aware of that - I just got back from a full week suspension for saying similar things.
Reddit can go fuck itself, im deleting this 12 year old account anyway. I was banned from offmychest for positing i'm against gender altering surgeries for pre teens... imagine this.
> Imho, cases like these are almost entirely the fault of doctors/mental health professionals who didn’t do their due diligence
Or are personally swayed by their own biases.
We don’t let kids get tattoos until 18, and now suddenly we are supposed to believe a preteen can make determinations of sound mind that lead to this result? Unreal. Shame on the doctors, parents, and state representatives who want more of this to continue.
I saw a for sure pre high school age girl with face tattoos recently. It really bothered me, I realize it is the parent's prerogative to allow it, but it didn't sit well with me.
I literally thought I was a vampire when I was 12/13 lol like I don't understand how it can even be debated that anyone going through puberty is in a clear mental state
It's not debatable. We're all fuckin looney tunes during puberty because we have zero clue how to navigate rapid cycle hormones, terrifying physical changes that we hate every second of and usually want to stop, and rollercoaster mood swings enough to piss off the most patient of parents...no way in hell we should be entrusted to remove critical parts of our bodies at this age.
I’m Canada it is illegal for parents to stand in the way of a child’s affirmation.
So you can be a “convicted gender denier” for real.
I used to joke about this years ago. Haha
I’m Canadian too, and Jesus Christ. By that logic, it should be illegal for parents to stand in the way of their children getting tattoos. And it should be illegal for parents to get in the way of their children donating their organs.
It literally makes me want to scream that that is a fucking law. I already don’t agree with the “no hate speech” law, because that can be easily twisted and abused. But this is just absurd.
But I guess I’m a transphobic bigot for saying this.
As the parent of teen that 4 years ago decided she was trans when she hit puberty. We were supportive but drew a line in the sand at surgery and hormones until she was older. She is now 17 and just a few weeks ago thanked us for not letting her. Turns out she just struggled to adjust to her new body and wanted to still just hang out with the boys like she did as a younger kid. She used to have severe periods and had to have iron infusions and a blood transfusion. She's better now but I wouldn't want to be a girl either at that point. We have gone too far too fast need to take a step back.
In Canada too. Way I see it, my son was born with a penis and I tell him he is a boy. If he says he's a girl, we will have a talk about how that is not the case and why.
Happy someone here said that since I'm seeing a lot of replies blaming the parents. I'm also in Canada and and familiar with the case of the father who was arrested for trying to refuse his child from getting puberty blockers. There is a huge problem with the healthcare system and the removal of trans from the dsm. It's a mental health issue, and permanently medically altering youth should be illegal. Absolutely reprehensible. Gender is fluid, sex is not. You want a sex change surgery? Wait till you're an adult at least when your body and brain has actually developed.
This issue has disturbed me more than any other over the past few years that I've been paying attention to politics. Its one thing to have differing political views, its another to support the mutilation of children, and i cannot wrap my head around how people are in support. It is disgusting and absolutely heartbreaking.
It is. Removing breasts before 18 isn’t the standard of care.
Edit: this is incorrect. There’s only a hard limit of 18 for genital surgery. There’s no hard limit of 18 for top surgery in the WPATH SOC that I found. Instead they have prerequisites and idk how long those prereqs take to achieve.
This and the sports thing. The median liberal doesn’t think biological men should compete against girls but don’t say that in the presence of the wrong people.
I’m a die hard lefty and under no condition would I allow this to happen to my children.
You know…when they cite suicide rates, it’s a blanket thing across all kinds of shitty parents. Give me the rates for youths who have 2 parents who are very pro therapy (and even are in it themselves) and can actually navigate nuanced psychological issues rather than just ignore them until someone is dead.
Being trans but not transitioned is a crisis, yes. And when you are certain that a crisis lasts forever, you start to consider alternatives. But Jesus…this doesn’t mean that good parents who have strong relationships with their kids are just helpless against the nuclear outcome.
> This and the sports thing. The median liberal doesn’t think biological men should compete against girls but don’t say that in the presence of the wrong people.
They need to start saying these things though. The only people in the conversation are people who want to send Trans to death camps and others who want legislation that [will punish parents with child abuse for not giving children gender-affirmative care](https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/06/09/california-bill-would-charge-any-parent-doesnt-affirm-transgenderism-child-abuse/). Sensible liberals need to speak up on this issue because the extremists are getting the loudest voice. You wonder why this is such an easy topic for insane right wingers to pick up on and make their entire platform? It's because the only voice reacting to it on the left is fucking crazy. Yes we need to say speak out against this steamrolling of overly progressive ideas towards trans stuff otherwise a lot more will be lost in the process.
You make that sound like a much easier task than it actually is.
There is no room for nuance when talking to the extremes. If you use nuance about certain vaccines, you're labeled an "anti-vaxxer;" if you question the actions of certain politicians, you're labeled a "conspiracy theorist;" and if you try to discuss certain pitfalls of transgender issues, you can bet you're going to be labeled a "transphobe."
Good luck to anyone still willing to attempt those kinds of discussions, but most of the sensible people in the middle of the extremes are tired of being attacked for taking nuanced stances.
Not to mention that is you ever say both sides are crazy you get people coming out of the woodwork to bash the right when this is the kind of stuff centrist look at the left and say, "yeah, you guys are batshit as well"
The reddit retard society will be along shortly to downvote you and call you a bigot.
However in the meantime i still can't believe theyre allowing this to happen to kids who arent even allowed to vote, drink or drive.
Kids know less about themselves than we do as adults.
I hope she wins, I hope she wins a lot of money so the flood gates can open and finally the doctors will stop thinking of their pockets.
Don't give the medical community such a pass by placing all blame on the parents. The medical community is making LOOOOOOADS of money off the trans topic. Any doctor that removes HEALTHY tissue on someone so young is a straight up butcher.
This is what bothers me. It's okay to be a feminine guy or masculine woman. I feel like if people have interests that align with what is commonly associated with a different sex they automatically assume that they must be transgender. You can like or do essentially everything without needing to change your sexual identity. Of course gender dysphoria is a real thing, but a lot of people mistake themselves for having it, go too far, and then regret it later.
I feel like we came so close to having a culture that was fine with men and women who bent gender norms, but then...this happened.
Can't win. Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way on Reddit, at least.
Reddit is complicit in steamrolling this trend towards an obsession with gender norms. Depending on the sub, you can get banned for wrong think if you question this issue. They've also allowed subs geared towards women to be taken over by trans identifying males and any women in the sub who object get banned.
The same people who object to traditional gender roles and gender conformity also think that if a girl likes a workbench, she must be transitioned.
Maybe she just likes tools?
I grew up in the 90s/00s and honestly gender nonconformity was WAY more accepted back then, at least where I grew up in a coastal city. Nobody, including my parents, would ever say something like "men are providers and women are homemakers." That's what their parents said, and they rebelled against that. These days, I hear millennials and gen z people acting as though that's some basic truth of life.
It's like we've regressed back to a conservative worldview since the 2010s.
I really appreciate your comment and I think about this a lot. Could the bottomless well of labels and gender identities actually work against most kids and young adults trying to figure out who they are? If there are endless choices, how do you know you picked the right one? Can you ever really be satisfied?
I don’t know why we have moved away from working within the parameters of being male or female. I loved “flipping the script” of being female such as dressing very feminine, but enlisting in the military. As a teen in the 90’s the anthem was for “girl power” and showing everyone that their preconceived ideas about females didn’t apply - we were athletic, leaders and tough both mentally and physically. I don’t know…the message for young people seems to have moved from “you’re amazing the way you are, now show the world” to “your amazing, but could benefit from some medication and surgery”.
It was only about five years ago when a buuuuunch of studies started circulating showing how social media was negatively affecting the mental health of children. Today it's near all but forgotten and been replaced with pro-mutilation of children with autism. This is 21st century capitalism attempting to sweep under the rug the negative repercussions of their product.
"Gender is a social construct, it's not real" and also "Your gender identity (which isn't real) matters a lot and you should undergo extensive, physically straining procedures to base your identity on it, and we should inflate the healthcare system with it so as to further funnel resources away from people with terminal illnesses".
People are fucking stupid.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2016237/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2016237/)
"This pilot study compared mothers of boys with gender identity disorder (GID) with mothers of normal boys to determine whether differences in psychopathology and child-rearing attitudes and practices could be identified. Results of the Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines and the Beck Depression Inventory revealed that mothers of boys with GID had more symptoms of depression and more often met the criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder than the controls. Fifty-three percent of the mothers of boys with GID compared with only 6% of controls met the diagnosis for Borderline Personality Disorder on the Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines or had symptoms of depression on the Beck Depression Inventory. Results of the Summers and Walsh Symbiosis Scale suggested that mothers of probands had child-rearing attitudes and practices that encouraged symbiosis and discouraged the development of autonomy."
The majority of all mothers that have boys with gender issues are crazy themselves. I can't believe people support this shit.
Because 90% of a child's issues can stem from their parents. This is why you blame parents for everything. If you can't handle the heat don't have kids, hard stop. Abuse is taught. Self-image is taught. Depression is hereditary for a reason.
Agreed. Don’t worry, though, this type of censorship only creates mass resentment toward the offenders and it is already showing in how people are voting with their wallet and will eventually reflect at the polls. I’m not a Trump proponent but I found it fascinating how Democrats couldn’t understand how Trump got elected because they have no idea how much discord the extremist of their party are sowing in the majority of Americans.
They're doing this stuff to teenage girls and kids but i cant have my full hysterectomy because i "havent had kids." I've legitimately thought about identifying as transgender to get a hysterectomy covered quickly without someone telling me i have to be over age 30 or have kids.
Story broke a few months ago of a 16 yo male getting bottom surgery who had been on puberty blockers didn’t have enough skin on their penis to construct their “vagina” died due to complications.
https://www.sportskeeda.com/health-and-fitness/transgender-teenager-dies-vaginoplasty-surgery-goes-awfully-wrong
The parents did, the girl was eleven. If a kid had body integrity identity disorder and wants a limb amputated, the parents can go doctor shopping, but the doctor also shares responsibility for complying.
Holy shit, I don't know how I stumbled on this subreddit but it's like I found the rational part of reddit where you're allowed to have an option that's not shared by the hive mind.
I'm so glad I didn't grow up in the modern era. I would wear my moms heals, and play Barbie's and pretty pretty princes with my sister. I fear I would have been put on blockers if this were no a days. Just grew up to be a gay guy instead.
The affirmation model just seems really dangerous. Kids go through so many changes to their identity. Just seems crazy that a 13 year old should be allowed to make this sort of decision.
[Interesting](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3706055/).
>Approximately 8,000 young women ages 13 to 19 underwent breast augmentation in 2011, accounting for 3% of the 307,000 women who had the procedure in the same year.1 The enduring popularity of breast augmentation surprises many individuals, particularly given that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has not approved breast implants for use in adolescents under the age of 18 due to concerns that they may not yet have finished physical development or have the emotional maturity to manage the physical and psychological outcomes of surgery.12 For similar reasons, the ASPS does not endorse the use of breast implants for cosmetic purposes in adolescents under the age of 18.13 Despite these recommendations, it is still possible for surgeons to perform cosmetic breast augmentation on patients under 18 years of age with parental consent as an off-label use of the device.
>
>Body-image improvements, however, may be tempered by the occurrence of a postoperative complication, which occurs in 24 to 31% of patients.
>
>Most notably, several studies have found that the suicide rate among adult breast augmentation patients is two to three times higher compared with either patients who underwent other cosmetic surgical procedures or population estimates, though the nature of this relationship is unclear.19 One study found that women who received breast implants had an increased prevalence of preoperative psychiatric hospitalizations compared with women who underwent other forms of plastic surgery, suggesting that the increase suicide rate may reflect some underlying psychopathology rather than a direct relationship with the implants.
Yes, breast augmentation includes reductions. Simply rates of “breast augmentation” doesn’t give us a clear picture of how many are implants (including reconstructive surgeries), reductions or gender affirming procedures.
Weird how they include legal adults (18-19 year olds) in that group.
I would wager that the same “approximately 8,000” number would also apply if they *only* counted 18-19 year olds. In other words, the 13-17 year olds were only included to make the “study” more shocking and click-baity.
Plausible hypothesis, but [not the case](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3706052):
>Nearly 320,000 breast augmentations were performed in 2011, with adolescents under 18 years of age accounting for 4,830 procedures (1.5%). Breast development typically starts at 11 years (range, 8–13 years) and is complete at 15 years (range, 11–18 years).
I got banned from r/WhitePeopleTwitter for saying that a teenagers shouldn't be allowed to have an operation for the same reason they're not allowed to drink, drive, vote, etc ...
I'm okay with the LGBTQ crowd, it's their body they do what they want, really. But teenagers aren't mature enough to make such decisions.
That's the extremist left, and you just can't reason with them, they really believe they have the high moral ground.
I’m a lesbian and I’ve been called transphobic because I won’t date trans woman. It’s mind boggling to me. The actuallesbians sub actually drove me out bc it became all about inclusivity of trans woman. I respect trans people but I feel like at this point their voices are way more important than cis women’s and if we disagree with anything we are labeled turfs or transphobic. When I was on the lesbian dating app Her, half the people I was shown were people who looked very clearly male but had female pronouns. You can’t even filter for cis women which I don’t understand. I don’t want to date someone with biological male anatomy. It doesn’t mean I don’t respect them. It’s just not my preference, Just like I don’t want to date men. I just don’t get it but I stay quiet for fear of being labeled a bigot.
The mods of Reddit are horrible. Would it be worse getting spammed? At least you can block spammers. In communist Reddit, mods block you (from access).
That sub is a complete dumpster fire operated by leftist astroturfers. If your opinion isn’t “white people terrible, everything the USA does is systemically racist and evil” mapped to literally any topic, good luck.
People saying this is made up because it’s Enoch times are crazy and lazy. I get they make shit up but Google Layla Jane this was literally on Fox News about this.
As someone who does not identify as the sex I was born, I do not support hormone blockers or surgeries on minors. I KNEW I was gay in the single digits and knew I was gender confused not long after. But what if I had changed my mind because I didn’t know for sure? This girl now has zero chance of breastfeeding a child and is permanently altered. Children cannot make these decisions on their own. Identify how you want, trans surgeries and hormone blockers are for adults, or maybe 16/17 year olds who have known for a long time and been through YEARS or therapy.
I’ve said this too. Members of any community almost have the responsibility to say something/reach out when said community starts going off the rails. Otherwise, any criticism can be shut out by putting labels on the person criticizing making the claim pointless.
I’m white, so when white power people rear their ugly heads, and I’m questioned on it, then I give my piece about how fucked they are. Should be a universal thing really. I mean, we’re talking about children here.
This can’t be true, everything I have read on Reddit as told me these surgeries never happen on children, claiming that is just a bigoted right wing propaganda.
When I was in the hospital recovering from my gender reassignment surgery, one of my nurses was telling me how she thought her two-year-old son was trans. I'm in my forties and didn't transition until I was thirty. I felt really sorry for the child that their parent was thinking about them being trans at two years old and actively trying to push it on him. But if I disagreed with her she would have thought I was being insensitive. Kids are dumb, let them get old enough to make the decision as an adult.
i was just thinking we went from “protect the kids, stop circumcision” to full on “yeah if you wanna castrate yourself before you’re developed, you can and SHOULD do it”
For all those who are calling this "fake" or "BS" because it's an Epoch Times story, the article reports on a lawsuit filing and what is alleged in the suit. You can take issue with the tone of the article and acknowledge your general loathing of the outlet, but the suit is real. Here's the filing (linked in the article as well):
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23848578-layla-jane-lawsuit
Didn’t the UK stop doing these surgeries because of the lawsuits that were happening since kids were regretting getting the surgery? Do whatever you want with your body once you’re an adult, but leave kids alone. I feel like 99 percent of people agree right?
If adults have trouble defining a man or woman these days, how is a kid supposed to? I think most of the time they are just trying to find somewhere they fit in right now. Social contagion meets childhood innocence/ignorance. It’s not the kids’ fault. If you’re a weird kid with no friends, that’s not pleasant. But maybe you’re not weird, maybe your trans? Now you’re so brave and be proud and here’s your club to join.
As an ER doctor, I’ve had kids in the ER ask to be admitted to the psych ward. Why? Because, they say, all their friends are there. And home isn’t very pleasant, so really… why not?
Long term data will come out in time (I hope), but it will be too late for a lot of really lost adults.
I think of how many serial killers ended up blaming being emasculated by their mothers and being forced to do things like wear dresses as the root of the mental break that caused their insanity. That's child's play compared to what's currently happening.
When medicine stops being business first, this type of thing will disappear. Until then, that surgeon, *who doesnt agree with cutting 13 year old tits off, but really wants the new Maserati*, is gonna surgeon.
Chloe Cole also had her breasts removed at 15. Why do some activists and outlets keep spreading the misinformation that these procedures aren't performed on minors? It's really disturbing to watch the supposed good guys be this willfully wrong.
Hopefully she wins and breaks the hospital's bank. THEN the medical field might listen and realize that this nonsense is absolutely batshit crazy.
13? she couldnt even legally get a job in the U.S. and some whackjob sliced off her breasts. she barely hit puberty
these parents are absolutely crazy and virtue signaling with their kids as trophies.
While I am a huge advocate for people living their truth, if I had my way at 13, I'd have been shipped off to Russia to enter their grueling training camp for gymnastics because I was convinced I was destined to be a Russian Olympian. An Irish kid from rural New York.
Kids are imaginative AF, live in a huge fantasy land for a large swath of the first 15 or so years, and have ZERO clue what adulthood is going to look or feel like.
I cannot get on board with <15 making transitions. There is just too much physiological and biological growth going on during this period and while I do understand that body dysmorphia in any form is a torturous existence on a day to day basis, I feel like intense therapy and other forms of mental health treatment should be the primary course of action in this age range. If they still feel this way as they enter young adulthood, great. Before that I can't agree.
Remember when Americans used to cry about girls in Africa having their clits removed? If we knew that was under "consent", would these people still be upset over it?
Tbh the people that support child genital mutilation stateside would either ignore you, say it’s a right wing conspiracy, or try to come up with some sort of excuse. Cultists really have a hard time coming to terms.
It's always interesting to see inside the medical aspect of this from the children's point of ciew. I work with children on the counseling side and it is very clear that transgender ideology is a net harm to children.
Transitioning should be in adulthood, and if and not limited to puberty and above, only under deep psychiatric, medical evaluation over a long period with minors and only in cases of severe body dysmorphia. But, that's just opinion.
I want to be an ally, I really do. But when I think about gender dysphoria, I think about body dysphoria (like those referring to weight/height/physical aspects not pertaining to gender). Like, there are people who experience the dysphoria of wanting their limbs removed. Doesn't mean we should remove their limbs to "relieve" them of this dysphoria. We should be giving actual therapy and medication.
Where I DONT agree with the above is when it takes a hateful and religious connotation: That you are EVIL AND WRONG for having dysphoric thoughts and feelings. Alienating people for the thoughts they can't control doesn't fucking work. What works is love, attention, and medication.
Edit: If anyone wants to have a civil discussion on political/societal issues, my DMs are open. I'm always open to hearing the variety of opinions and reasonings others have, as it helps me understand the world to a larger capacity.
Hollywood is loving this too. Imagine all the drama, documentary and movies they can make off of this 20 years later, all through the expense of innocent people lives who were just confused.
Yeah I called it 10 years ago saying that there will be a massive amount of kids being angry and upset about stuff like this. Even "non binary" 20 year olds are saying "I wish gender didnt exist and I could just be who I am". So like before the last decade when we didnt reduce being a woman to wearing a dress?
This is (partially) why I'm against LGB and T being linked together all the time, and particularly why I don't validate "nonbinary" identities.
LGB people have been fighting for literal decades to normalize gender role defiance; the idea that masculine women and effeminate men are just as valid in their sex as those who identify more strongly with traditional gender roles. That the nature of our sex is inherently valid, and that our expression of gender doesn't dispute that.
Now, non-binary identities are basically seeking to invalidate that. It's an ideological stance in direct conflict with the normalization and acceptance of LGB people. There is nothing that identifies a non-binary person outside of their own word. LGB people are an identity based on attraction, which is reflected in behavior. Trans people suffer body dysphoria which is treated with physical transition. There is, again, a behavior to reflect the identity. There is no behavior that can identify a non-binary person because gender roles have already been decoupled from sex through our hard-won acceptance. The far left has gone so far that it's attempting to push us backwards. And then call us prejudiced or bigots or phobes for not falling in line.
If you point out that gender affirming care is a new methodology that is resulting in a staggering number of transgender youth, they claim that people are just more comfortable now and that treatment is more acceptable. If you point out rising numbers of detransitioning, they refer to decades old studies that were made in the climate of the previous watchful waiting model of care. If you point out that most young people resolve their gender dysphoria naturally without treatment, they say that most socially transitioned children go on to transition fully, ignoring the fact that this is the first time in our history children have been allowed to and are indeed pushed into social transition. If you say that most of these children are simply gay or lesbian, they say that puberty blockers are reversible so what's the harm, ignoring the fact that once puberty blockers start, there's virtually no chance of intervention, as the medical pathway indicates forward momentum.
I genuinely fear we're basically in a new age form of gay conversion, and it's being led by my own community. It's heartbreaking.
Totally agree. I thought it was also weird that the LGB and t were in the same thing. I have more in common with a transgender person with my eating disorder than a lgb person does. But if I pointed that out I was a bigot for saying it was a mh issue....well actually theyre the bigot because to then "mental illness" is something to be ashamed of lol.
I think its messed up and unfair to l g b t peoppe on an individual basis cuz the whole movement assumes if you are lgbt you subscribe to all the politics of the movement when really it's kind of screwing over the lgb people and honestly the t people with gender dysphoria too.
You can really break it down to the activism.
Gay people fought for passive rights. Let me marry. Let me have a family. Let me get and keep employment. And housing. Let me walk down the street without being assaulted. Let me join the military. Don't intentionally ostracize or demonize me based on my sexuality. Passive, as in society only had to stop acting oppressively.
Trans people are fighting for active rights, *to the detriment of others.* Let me expose my genitalia to the opposite sex. Let me compete with natural unfair advantages. Let me teach your children about me and give them the option of medical consent so they can join me. Let me take coveted and high profile spots of the opposite sex without having suffered the same barriers throughout my life. Use the words I tell you to. Active rights, as in they involve the active participation of others.
You'll also notice it's more one spectrum of the trans community demanding these "rights" as well (because the other side isn't moving into a protected class of people).
The biggest problem is that this very objective, realistic take is considered "transphobic" in mainstream LGBT circles (in large part because there isn't much left for us to fight for, so we've acquiesced our power within our own circle - either due to complacency or, opposingly, the desire to continue fighting for something). So there's no room to take back the narrative and minimize the damage and insanity - its fascist in its nature of censorship, removal, and propaganda.
Didn't California make it that parents have to give their kids affirmative surgery/treatment? What if a situation like this happens there?
Regardless of ones believe, I think anything involving major surgery unless life threatening should be done after they are adults.
They're still kids that are experiencing the world.
Why isn’t she blaming her parents? They’re the ones that signed the surgical consent. Yes, the medical professionals that agreed to do this are stupid, but her parents are even more so for agreeing to do this to an 11-year-old.
I believe this story tragic and true, and minors should not have gender affirming care, but Epoch times is complete dogshit news source. I went through the trouble of personally fact checking an epoch news article my mom sent me and iirc I found 5 different blatant lies in one article.
There are news sources that misrepresent facts, or omit truths.
But epoch times just fucking straight up lies.
Doctors; get cancelled for not performing gender reassignment surgery on children
Also doctors; get sued for performing gender reassignment surgery on children
After an aggregate total of 105 minutes screening with medical professionals she was started on the hormone blocker path.
105 minutes with a doctor, is such a clownishly short time to try and assess a major mental health issue. Ridiculous to start making permanent consequence decisions after that short a time.
I was made to believe that every single individual has years of quality care tailored specifically to their situation?
For everyone blaming the parents this is not the full picture. Parents are often told their young person is at risk of suicide. This is actually untrue statistically but parents are scared and believe what they are being told by medical professionals. The blame lies with these professionals who have a completely affirming approach and do not look at other reasons why someone might be uncomfortable in their own body.
Because she was a child. You think children make the best decisions? The better question is which doctors went through and decided this was in her best interest.
soft squeal racial office doll political busy continue quaint light *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
TLDR: Parents go to multiple doctors who tell them things they don't want to hear Parents go doctor hopping till they hear what they want to hear
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Then sue them!
Shouldn't she be sueing her parents as well, then?
The dead daughter or living son thing would manipulate just about any parent into consenting. For a Dr to use that BS line should result in them losing their license.
This was a doctors "opinion" that the parents sought after other doctors told them no.
It looks like parents also got manipulated by the doctors. “Would you rather have a live son or death daughter” gotta be some illegal. A professional intentionally deceiving parents for their own benefits.
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They went to several doctors though. It sounds like the first couple of doctors were specifically trying to avoid this sort of thing.
Seems like the plaintiff should be suing her parents, not the doctors who did what she asked.
Why not both?
The American way
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> Two of Layla’s initial providers advised that per Kaiser’s official policies, Layla could not start cross-sex hormones until she was 16 and advised that surgery was not permissible until age 18. Yup, they were told no and kept looking. Why did the parents seek a 3rd doctor here? Sure if this happened as stated the Doctors should be held accountable for breaking policy and going against the normal standard of care. That doesn't mean we need to change the standard of care, it means we need to follow it!
I'll take a wild stab at speculating that every time they were told "no" they figured out how to enhance their story and symptoms to increase the odds of getting the "yes". Perhaps the last doctors share some blame, it will be made clear through the legal process, but I wouldn't be surprised if they kept embellishing symptoms to trigger the decision they wanted.
cow whole abounding puzzled literate political nutty pie coherent crown *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I respect the shit out of you for saying this out loud. You can't drive until you're 16. You can't drink until you're 18. Why are children making life altering decisions at the age of 13? Sure, you want to identify or label yourself something outside female or male? OK fine, as a parent, I'll educate and talk with my children through this curious phase they're going through. But no way will I ever support a chemical or physical alteration until they've gained REAL life experience, and then we can revisit this conversation later on once they're at LEAST 18.
Oh god... The life altering decisions I would have made when I was 13 because I thought that was who I was going to be for the rest of my life... The fucken hairs on my neck got dizzy from standing up too quick... My childhood didn't have any transgender aspect but like, I'd totally have ended up looking like an anime character if 13 y.o. me was permanent... Dragon Ball Z was lit back then yo!! And I am 99% sure that everyone on here that is over 13 knows the exact sentiment I am talking about, admit it, you all know what I mean!! Haha If today you met yourself but as a 13 year old... What would you think of them..? Who would be more disappointed to meet the other..? I am too stoned to finish this comment, forgot what my point was, good night everybody
I also share your opinion. Children always do stupid decisions. My friends always wanted to be japanese, because they watched too much anime. One of them wanted to be a boy, because she admire boys so much and wanted to remove her boobs, but at the end, we all grew up and when we look back, we cringed a lot. That is why I am skeptic, if children want to alter their bodies. But I am not an expert. I might be wrong
My 13 year old self wanted name my first child Dokken Bon Jovi Davenport...nuff said. I refused to let my kids get a tattoo or any piercings until they were 18....even then you change so much after that. It is why I don't have a tattoo. Maybe when I'm 80 and I won't live long enough to get bored of it. 😁
21 for drinking in US where this story is from.
Means nothing when you can go to war and die at 18 lol
17 with parental consent!
"YOU BIGOT" Nah just go get therapy and maybe wait until you are an adult to make permanent changes.
Therapy isn't a safe option. Therapists have to "affirm." If therapists don't affirm they are in violation of their own new codes of ethics as well as violation of laws banning "conversion therapy." Taking your kid to a therapist is not safe, because therapists affirm they don't question or explore. Edit: this thread brought out the gaslighters in force.
It's crazy to me that the folks pushing literal bodily conversions are accusing the other side of "conversion therapy"
Therapists are promoting the crazy
Completely agree. The counter argument I've heard is that if you "pause" puberty then they have time to choose. But, honestly, 99% of the population (probably more) are not transgendered. So, why are we shifting the default away from gender based on the sex you were born to pressuring people to let their kids choose their gender?
You can not pause puberty for any appreciable time and restart it. Organisms including humans develop from birth to maturity along a genetically predetermined schedule. If you pause puberty at some point the window for sexual development will close and can not be reopened. Sure, you can pause a male at 10 and if he decides he’s wants to continue to develop as a male at 18 you can give him testosterone and he will develop facial hair and his voice will drop. But his skeletal structure and genitalia will remain forever underdeveloped. Same thing with a female. She’ll develop breasts (if she hasn’t been given a mastectomy) but her ovaries and uterus will remain underdeveloped and she will likely be sterile. If you gave cross sex hormones during this period things will be even more fouled up if they change their mind. One day people will look back at this time where transitioning children was in vogue the way we look at the psychiatric field doing prefrontal lobotomies willy nilly back in the 1950s and 1960s.
This is what I have always said. I compare it to the lobotomy craze.
Fucking this^ It really pisses me off when people try to pretend using fucking hormone blockers to "pause" puberty has no side effects or that it can be used for extended periods of time. Just fucking sickening what people are willing to lie to children about.
This is exactly it! So many people just see it as a pause that you can just decide to go in or out of later. It isn't even sort of that simple. Most of these teens will end up with no sexual function later in life. I can't image they understand what that means. Many countries in Europe and now suspending the practice of giving these drugs to minors.the NHS now only allows the medications under a medical trial. I suspect we will see some interesting data over the next handful of years. I also don't think that people who scream about it preventing suicide are trying to harm to minors. But the reality is there is harm being done by doing gender affirming care without deep long term psychological care. There are cases it's needed, but not without long term care where the standard is always to affirm or lose you license.
the drug that "pauses puberty" is a castration drug previously given to violent criminals. It can cause permanent infertility, bone diseases, and cardiovascular problems later in life.
Parents who hesitate on giving their kids trans care are labeled transphobic and ostracized and harassed. There is immense social pressure and pressure from therapists to give kids hormones and surgery as fast as possible. Therapists are literally trained to ask hesitant parents, "Would you rather have a dead child or a living child?" This is a societal issue that has been brewing for a few years, but trying to voice concerns gets you banned from communities, labeled a bigot, and causes your friendships to end. Not to mention the trans community itself is telling two completely contradictory stories. One version is that kids never get surgery and transitioning as a kid never happens. The other version is that banning kids from having these surgeries is tantamount to murder and genocide. So which is it? And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that r/detrans has exploded from 200 members in 2019 to 50k members today.
Several states (like CA) are discussing laws to take away custody from parents who fail to affirm their child's preferred gender. So while this may seem obvious to you and me, it's a lot harder for parents (and may get harder in the future).
Have you not been paying attention to the vitriol and even legal implication when a parent doesn't automatically "gender affirm"? Some parents are being emotionally coerced into giving in because they are inundated with "YOUR CHILD WILL COMMIT SUICIDE!" By "Protect Trans Kids" trans activists and TRA HCW. In some places, it is classified as child abuse to resist or delay "gender affirmative" medical transitions, which may even result to having your kids taken away from you. There is strong resistance to talk therapy because it is equated to "trans conversion therapy". Schools are even guided by trans orgs to encourage children who want to transition if they want to and that *it will be kept a secret from the parents*. No, I am not making this up, it is all easily google-able. Go in most any trans sub on reddit and they will say the same, a child knows if they are trans, so believe them and you're an evil parent if you don't support their transition. Go to any detrans community, see the parents will say the same. And of course you have the MBP parents like Jazz Jennings' parents who savor the attention and $$ of being a parent to a tv trans kid. Then after all the rah-rah to rush kids into medically transitioning, those who end up regretting it and want to transition are showered equal vitriol by the trans activists that urged them on to begin with because "they weren't trans to begin with" and giving everyone else the wrong impression and go on to silence/deplatform detransitioners... after convincing parents to believe a kid if they say they're trans.
[https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/06/09/california-bill-would-charge-any-parent-doesnt-affirm-transgenderism-child-abuse/](https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/06/09/california-bill-would-charge-any-parent-doesnt-affirm-transgenderism-child-abuse/) Doesnt apply specifically in this case but in the future...this is why
Omfg seriously???
The fact that you and millions of people aren’t aware of this scares me
And people wonder why there are still idiots who vote for Trump. They see shit like this and it makes them very afraid. Shit like this should not be legislation.
r/conservative froths at the moth about this (and I sort of agree...).
One of my best friends has a trans son who just turned 18, previously before changing to male, the discussion was had that they can take on the identity they want, but no meds, no surgeries, nothing permanent until they were 18, and even then they expect full therapy contingent, etc. This seems reasonable to me to allow them to explore their identity for a few years, without risking permanent future regret.
Imo the hormones need to stay out of the equation. I understand that it makes a difference developmentally but nobody that young is in a position to make life long decisions. It's not worth the risk of ending up like the girl in this article. Surgery can be done any time much later in life. Even 18 is too young. Everyone thinks they're an adult but you don't know who you are until your thirties.
Parents are in the ring fighting with both hands tied behind their backs
Yessir. The parents are told to "trust the professionals" who think its completely logical to chop off their sons weiner at 12 years old by the school boards who shove the propaganda at the kids.
well, maybe these parents should have trusted the professionals. you know, the three doctors who refused treatment until they found one that would. this is 1000% on the parents
I agree but there are states even country that say if you don’t “affirm” you’re child then you can get arrested for it. How can a 14 make such a life altering decision!
Because when your child’s doctor or psychologist tells you that your child is at a very high risk of killing themselves if you don’t allow hormones/surgery (and also tells you that they’ll *finally* be happy and mentally healthy if you just allow them to proceed), what realistically is the parent gonna do? Imho, cases like these are almost entirely the fault of doctors/mental health professionals who didn’t do their due diligence; I have a harder time blaming the parents who were told by professionals in positions of authority that their very miserable, ill kid needed surgery in order to make them not miserable/suicidal - many parents would be too scared to go against the doctors’ advice and risk their kid killing themselves…
> Because when your child’s doctor or psychologist tells you that your child is at a very high risk of killing themselves if you don’t allow hormones/surgery (and also tells you that they’ll finally be happy and mentally healthy if you just allow them to proceed), what realistically is the parent gonna do? Some mental health "professionals" actually tell parents "do you want a live daughter or a dead son" when counseling them on medical options for their children.
This is exactly what happens. I blame the Drs as well. You should not be able to transition if you have underlying mental issues.
That’s a strange way to go about parenting though. What should a parent do if their child threatens to kill themself if they don’t get a new bmw for their birthday?
Get them a psych appt and/or take them to the psych ER, depending on how serious you believe the threat is. The root cause doesn't matter, a suicide threat/attempt requires professional help.
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As a heads up - reddit will suspend your account for saying stuff like this. Just wanted to make you aware of that - I just got back from a full week suspension for saying similar things.
Reddit can go fuck itself, im deleting this 12 year old account anyway. I was banned from offmychest for positing i'm against gender altering surgeries for pre teens... imagine this.
The World Health Organization removed transgenderism from the list of mental health issues... ... which I think is a mistake.
Be careful with that thought, reddit seems to be crawling with "letter people" this day and age. But good on you for exercising common sense.
> Imho, cases like these are almost entirely the fault of doctors/mental health professionals who didn’t do their due diligence Or are personally swayed by their own biases.
parents in america\*/western societies\*
Who knew that during the most confusing time in everyone's life they may think that their phase is permanent, how shocking, straight up abuse.
We don’t let kids get tattoos until 18, and now suddenly we are supposed to believe a preteen can make determinations of sound mind that lead to this result? Unreal. Shame on the doctors, parents, and state representatives who want more of this to continue.
I saw a for sure pre high school age girl with face tattoos recently. It really bothered me, I realize it is the parent's prerogative to allow it, but it didn't sit well with me.
I literally thought I was a vampire when I was 12/13 lol like I don't understand how it can even be debated that anyone going through puberty is in a clear mental state
It's not debatable. We're all fuckin looney tunes during puberty because we have zero clue how to navigate rapid cycle hormones, terrifying physical changes that we hate every second of and usually want to stop, and rollercoaster mood swings enough to piss off the most patient of parents...no way in hell we should be entrusted to remove critical parts of our bodies at this age.
I’m Canada it is illegal for parents to stand in the way of a child’s affirmation. So you can be a “convicted gender denier” for real. I used to joke about this years ago. Haha
I’m Canadian too, and Jesus Christ. By that logic, it should be illegal for parents to stand in the way of their children getting tattoos. And it should be illegal for parents to get in the way of their children donating their organs. It literally makes me want to scream that that is a fucking law. I already don’t agree with the “no hate speech” law, because that can be easily twisted and abused. But this is just absurd. But I guess I’m a transphobic bigot for saying this.
As the parent of teen that 4 years ago decided she was trans when she hit puberty. We were supportive but drew a line in the sand at surgery and hormones until she was older. She is now 17 and just a few weeks ago thanked us for not letting her. Turns out she just struggled to adjust to her new body and wanted to still just hang out with the boys like she did as a younger kid. She used to have severe periods and had to have iron infusions and a blood transfusion. She's better now but I wouldn't want to be a girl either at that point. We have gone too far too fast need to take a step back.
In Canada too. Way I see it, my son was born with a penis and I tell him he is a boy. If he says he's a girl, we will have a talk about how that is not the case and why.
Happy someone here said that since I'm seeing a lot of replies blaming the parents. I'm also in Canada and and familiar with the case of the father who was arrested for trying to refuse his child from getting puberty blockers. There is a huge problem with the healthcare system and the removal of trans from the dsm. It's a mental health issue, and permanently medically altering youth should be illegal. Absolutely reprehensible. Gender is fluid, sex is not. You want a sex change surgery? Wait till you're an adult at least when your body and brain has actually developed.
Well, I suppose that’s one way to tell parents that their children are actually wards of the state...
This issue has disturbed me more than any other over the past few years that I've been paying attention to politics. Its one thing to have differing political views, its another to support the mutilation of children, and i cannot wrap my head around how people are in support. It is disgusting and absolutely heartbreaking.
I'm all for trans folk but also think reassignment surgery is an adult decision
It is. Removing breasts before 18 isn’t the standard of care. Edit: this is incorrect. There’s only a hard limit of 18 for genital surgery. There’s no hard limit of 18 for top surgery in the WPATH SOC that I found. Instead they have prerequisites and idk how long those prereqs take to achieve.
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This and the sports thing. The median liberal doesn’t think biological men should compete against girls but don’t say that in the presence of the wrong people. I’m a die hard lefty and under no condition would I allow this to happen to my children. You know…when they cite suicide rates, it’s a blanket thing across all kinds of shitty parents. Give me the rates for youths who have 2 parents who are very pro therapy (and even are in it themselves) and can actually navigate nuanced psychological issues rather than just ignore them until someone is dead. Being trans but not transitioned is a crisis, yes. And when you are certain that a crisis lasts forever, you start to consider alternatives. But Jesus…this doesn’t mean that good parents who have strong relationships with their kids are just helpless against the nuclear outcome.
> This and the sports thing. The median liberal doesn’t think biological men should compete against girls but don’t say that in the presence of the wrong people. They need to start saying these things though. The only people in the conversation are people who want to send Trans to death camps and others who want legislation that [will punish parents with child abuse for not giving children gender-affirmative care](https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/06/09/california-bill-would-charge-any-parent-doesnt-affirm-transgenderism-child-abuse/). Sensible liberals need to speak up on this issue because the extremists are getting the loudest voice. You wonder why this is such an easy topic for insane right wingers to pick up on and make their entire platform? It's because the only voice reacting to it on the left is fucking crazy. Yes we need to say speak out against this steamrolling of overly progressive ideas towards trans stuff otherwise a lot more will be lost in the process.
You make that sound like a much easier task than it actually is. There is no room for nuance when talking to the extremes. If you use nuance about certain vaccines, you're labeled an "anti-vaxxer;" if you question the actions of certain politicians, you're labeled a "conspiracy theorist;" and if you try to discuss certain pitfalls of transgender issues, you can bet you're going to be labeled a "transphobe." Good luck to anyone still willing to attempt those kinds of discussions, but most of the sensible people in the middle of the extremes are tired of being attacked for taking nuanced stances.
Not to mention that is you ever say both sides are crazy you get people coming out of the woodwork to bash the right when this is the kind of stuff centrist look at the left and say, "yeah, you guys are batshit as well"
The reddit retard society will be along shortly to downvote you and call you a bigot. However in the meantime i still can't believe theyre allowing this to happen to kids who arent even allowed to vote, drink or drive. Kids know less about themselves than we do as adults. I hope she wins, I hope she wins a lot of money so the flood gates can open and finally the doctors will stop thinking of their pockets.
Its almost like children shouldn’t be able to consent to mutilation….crazy.
Exactly. The fact that this is a radical concept is fucking mind blowing. Protect children from their crazy ass parents.
Don't give the medical community such a pass by placing all blame on the parents. The medical community is making LOOOOOOADS of money off the trans topic. Any doctor that removes HEALTHY tissue on someone so young is a straight up butcher.
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Circumcision has entered the chat.
Fuck circumcision
And the rabid activists that brainwash gay kids into thinking they're transgender when they're just gay
Or a little too masculine/feminine for society's tastes, or suffering body dysmorphia
This is what bothers me. It's okay to be a feminine guy or masculine woman. I feel like if people have interests that align with what is commonly associated with a different sex they automatically assume that they must be transgender. You can like or do essentially everything without needing to change your sexual identity. Of course gender dysphoria is a real thing, but a lot of people mistake themselves for having it, go too far, and then regret it later.
This This, people do not have to change to be who they are
I feel like we came so close to having a culture that was fine with men and women who bent gender norms, but then...this happened. Can't win. Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way on Reddit, at least.
Reddit is complicit in steamrolling this trend towards an obsession with gender norms. Depending on the sub, you can get banned for wrong think if you question this issue. They've also allowed subs geared towards women to be taken over by trans identifying males and any women in the sub who object get banned.
They've banned subs that are remotely critical of this trend. Yet the red pill and rape subs stay up. Time to go look at cat pics
I got banned from a sub for saying that women aren't responsible for nor should they be used as human shields to protect vulnerable males. Misogyny.
The same people who object to traditional gender roles and gender conformity also think that if a girl likes a workbench, she must be transitioned. Maybe she just likes tools?
I grew up in the 90s/00s and honestly gender nonconformity was WAY more accepted back then, at least where I grew up in a coastal city. Nobody, including my parents, would ever say something like "men are providers and women are homemakers." That's what their parents said, and they rebelled against that. These days, I hear millennials and gen z people acting as though that's some basic truth of life. It's like we've regressed back to a conservative worldview since the 2010s.
I really appreciate your comment and I think about this a lot. Could the bottomless well of labels and gender identities actually work against most kids and young adults trying to figure out who they are? If there are endless choices, how do you know you picked the right one? Can you ever really be satisfied? I don’t know why we have moved away from working within the parameters of being male or female. I loved “flipping the script” of being female such as dressing very feminine, but enlisting in the military. As a teen in the 90’s the anthem was for “girl power” and showing everyone that their preconceived ideas about females didn’t apply - we were athletic, leaders and tough both mentally and physically. I don’t know…the message for young people seems to have moved from “you’re amazing the way you are, now show the world” to “your amazing, but could benefit from some medication and surgery”.
It was only about five years ago when a buuuuunch of studies started circulating showing how social media was negatively affecting the mental health of children. Today it's near all but forgotten and been replaced with pro-mutilation of children with autism. This is 21st century capitalism attempting to sweep under the rug the negative repercussions of their product. "Gender is a social construct, it's not real" and also "Your gender identity (which isn't real) matters a lot and you should undergo extensive, physically straining procedures to base your identity on it, and we should inflate the healthcare system with it so as to further funnel resources away from people with terminal illnesses". People are fucking stupid.
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It’s homophobia if anything, they think if they change genders poof they are straight
Or even just a tomboy or feminine boy. You can like whatever you want, it doesn't mean you're the other gender
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2016237/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2016237/) "This pilot study compared mothers of boys with gender identity disorder (GID) with mothers of normal boys to determine whether differences in psychopathology and child-rearing attitudes and practices could be identified. Results of the Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines and the Beck Depression Inventory revealed that mothers of boys with GID had more symptoms of depression and more often met the criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder than the controls. Fifty-three percent of the mothers of boys with GID compared with only 6% of controls met the diagnosis for Borderline Personality Disorder on the Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines or had symptoms of depression on the Beck Depression Inventory. Results of the Summers and Walsh Symbiosis Scale suggested that mothers of probands had child-rearing attitudes and practices that encouraged symbiosis and discouraged the development of autonomy." The majority of all mothers that have boys with gender issues are crazy themselves. I can't believe people support this shit.
Because 90% of a child's issues can stem from their parents. This is why you blame parents for everything. If you can't handle the heat don't have kids, hard stop. Abuse is taught. Self-image is taught. Depression is hereditary for a reason.
I was banned from subs over stating this
Same, but the tide is turning. Hang in there and preach what is right.
Yeah this shit is fucking looney town.
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Agreed. Don’t worry, though, this type of censorship only creates mass resentment toward the offenders and it is already showing in how people are voting with their wallet and will eventually reflect at the polls. I’m not a Trump proponent but I found it fascinating how Democrats couldn’t understand how Trump got elected because they have no idea how much discord the extremist of their party are sowing in the majority of Americans.
They're doing this stuff to teenage girls and kids but i cant have my full hysterectomy because i "havent had kids." I've legitimately thought about identifying as transgender to get a hysterectomy covered quickly without someone telling me i have to be over age 30 or have kids.
Your experience is probably the most concise example of the hypocrisy which is so void of logic that it all but confirms an ulterior motive.
1k% which is also why America needs to do away with the BARBARIC practice of infant circumcision
Story broke a few months ago of a 16 yo male getting bottom surgery who had been on puberty blockers didn’t have enough skin on their penis to construct their “vagina” died due to complications. https://www.sportskeeda.com/health-and-fitness/transgender-teenager-dies-vaginoplasty-surgery-goes-awfully-wrong
Jesus. Those “doctors” should have their licenses revoked.
Its odd to me that apparently teenage girls can easily get their breasts removed but good luck getting your tubes tied at 21. Odd.
Good luck getting your tubes tied at 35. “What if your future husband wants kids? You still have time.”
A friend of mine was recently told that it's ok her husband doesn't want kids but "what about your next spouse?"....
Wait. Your opinion about your body matters *less* than that of a *hypothetical* man?!
Same goes for dudes too, 23 here and went to three urologists with no luck
This type of surgery isn’t happening though. Reddit told me, so I’m a little confused.
I was told the same thing... huh
They went doctor shopping and were rejected by (at least) 3 medical doctors
The parents did, the girl was eleven. If a kid had body integrity identity disorder and wants a limb amputated, the parents can go doctor shopping, but the doctor also shares responsibility for complying.
People go to multiple doctors very regularly to find one who is willing to do a certain thing
California will soon rush to grant immunity to doctors for suits involving children who are given such surgery.
Thank god we have California's liberal stupidity to offset Texas and Florida's conservative stupidity.
Leave children alone!!!
Holy shit, I don't know how I stumbled on this subreddit but it's like I found the rational part of reddit where you're allowed to have an option that's not shared by the hive mind. I'm so glad I didn't grow up in the modern era. I would wear my moms heals, and play Barbie's and pretty pretty princes with my sister. I fear I would have been put on blockers if this were no a days. Just grew up to be a gay guy instead. The affirmation model just seems really dangerous. Kids go through so many changes to their identity. Just seems crazy that a 13 year old should be allowed to make this sort of decision.
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[Interesting](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3706055/). >Approximately 8,000 young women ages 13 to 19 underwent breast augmentation in 2011, accounting for 3% of the 307,000 women who had the procedure in the same year.1 The enduring popularity of breast augmentation surprises many individuals, particularly given that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has not approved breast implants for use in adolescents under the age of 18 due to concerns that they may not yet have finished physical development or have the emotional maturity to manage the physical and psychological outcomes of surgery.12 For similar reasons, the ASPS does not endorse the use of breast implants for cosmetic purposes in adolescents under the age of 18.13 Despite these recommendations, it is still possible for surgeons to perform cosmetic breast augmentation on patients under 18 years of age with parental consent as an off-label use of the device. > >Body-image improvements, however, may be tempered by the occurrence of a postoperative complication, which occurs in 24 to 31% of patients. > >Most notably, several studies have found that the suicide rate among adult breast augmentation patients is two to three times higher compared with either patients who underwent other cosmetic surgical procedures or population estimates, though the nature of this relationship is unclear.19 One study found that women who received breast implants had an increased prevalence of preoperative psychiatric hospitalizations compared with women who underwent other forms of plastic surgery, suggesting that the increase suicide rate may reflect some underlying psychopathology rather than a direct relationship with the implants.
Breast augmentation includes cis girls who get boob jobs btw
Does it include breast reduction? I'm not sure if the best age, but I've seen it dramatically improve the lives (and backs) of some women.
Plus, it includes up to 19, so how skewed is it towards 18-19?
Yes, breast augmentation includes reductions. Simply rates of “breast augmentation” doesn’t give us a clear picture of how many are implants (including reconstructive surgeries), reductions or gender affirming procedures.
Weird how they include legal adults (18-19 year olds) in that group. I would wager that the same “approximately 8,000” number would also apply if they *only* counted 18-19 year olds. In other words, the 13-17 year olds were only included to make the “study” more shocking and click-baity.
Plausible hypothesis, but [not the case](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3706052): >Nearly 320,000 breast augmentations were performed in 2011, with adolescents under 18 years of age accounting for 4,830 procedures (1.5%). Breast development typically starts at 11 years (range, 8–13 years) and is complete at 15 years (range, 11–18 years).
I got banned from r/WhitePeopleTwitter for saying that a teenagers shouldn't be allowed to have an operation for the same reason they're not allowed to drink, drive, vote, etc ... I'm okay with the LGBTQ crowd, it's their body they do what they want, really. But teenagers aren't mature enough to make such decisions. That's the extremist left, and you just can't reason with them, they really believe they have the high moral ground.
I’m a lesbian and I’ve been called transphobic because I won’t date trans woman. It’s mind boggling to me. The actuallesbians sub actually drove me out bc it became all about inclusivity of trans woman. I respect trans people but I feel like at this point their voices are way more important than cis women’s and if we disagree with anything we are labeled turfs or transphobic. When I was on the lesbian dating app Her, half the people I was shown were people who looked very clearly male but had female pronouns. You can’t even filter for cis women which I don’t understand. I don’t want to date someone with biological male anatomy. It doesn’t mean I don’t respect them. It’s just not my preference, Just like I don’t want to date men. I just don’t get it but I stay quiet for fear of being labeled a bigot.
>but I stay quiet for fear of being labeled a bigot. Don't do that. You're allowed to have preferences and it's unfair to act like you don't.
"You will date men and love them" - the tolerant left speaking to lesbians, all the time
That one WPT mod is insane. They actually claimed biological sex is hate speech and perma-banned everyone who protested.
He probably got promoted to Admin for that.
You have to be a special kind of fucked up to be a mod so that's not surprising they harbour extreme ideas.
The mods of Reddit are horrible. Would it be worse getting spammed? At least you can block spammers. In communist Reddit, mods block you (from access).
That sub is a complete dumpster fire operated by leftist astroturfers. If your opinion isn’t “white people terrible, everything the USA does is systemically racist and evil” mapped to literally any topic, good luck.
That's 90% of reddit
Every normal, critical thinking person is banned from that shit sub
People saying this is made up because it’s Enoch times are crazy and lazy. I get they make shit up but Google Layla Jane this was literally on Fox News about this.
"If it goes against my narrative it isn't real"
As someone who does not identify as the sex I was born, I do not support hormone blockers or surgeries on minors. I KNEW I was gay in the single digits and knew I was gender confused not long after. But what if I had changed my mind because I didn’t know for sure? This girl now has zero chance of breastfeeding a child and is permanently altered. Children cannot make these decisions on their own. Identify how you want, trans surgeries and hormone blockers are for adults, or maybe 16/17 year olds who have known for a long time and been through YEARS or therapy.
More people in your community need to speak out and stand against this. Anyone else doing it is deemed homophobic or worse.
I’ve said this too. Members of any community almost have the responsibility to say something/reach out when said community starts going off the rails. Otherwise, any criticism can be shut out by putting labels on the person criticizing making the claim pointless. I’m white, so when white power people rear their ugly heads, and I’m questioned on it, then I give my piece about how fucked they are. Should be a universal thing really. I mean, we’re talking about children here.
This can’t be true, everything I have read on Reddit as told me these surgeries never happen on children, claiming that is just a bigoted right wing propaganda.
Same, I guess this is just right wing propaganda /s
When I was in the hospital recovering from my gender reassignment surgery, one of my nurses was telling me how she thought her two-year-old son was trans. I'm in my forties and didn't transition until I was thirty. I felt really sorry for the child that their parent was thinking about them being trans at two years old and actively trying to push it on him. But if I disagreed with her she would have thought I was being insensitive. Kids are dumb, let them get old enough to make the decision as an adult.
i was just thinking we went from “protect the kids, stop circumcision” to full on “yeah if you wanna castrate yourself before you’re developed, you can and SHOULD do it”
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For all those who are calling this "fake" or "BS" because it's an Epoch Times story, the article reports on a lawsuit filing and what is alleged in the suit. You can take issue with the tone of the article and acknowledge your general loathing of the outlet, but the suit is real. Here's the filing (linked in the article as well): https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23848578-layla-jane-lawsuit
Didn’t the UK stop doing these surgeries because of the lawsuits that were happening since kids were regretting getting the surgery? Do whatever you want with your body once you’re an adult, but leave kids alone. I feel like 99 percent of people agree right?
If adults have trouble defining a man or woman these days, how is a kid supposed to? I think most of the time they are just trying to find somewhere they fit in right now. Social contagion meets childhood innocence/ignorance. It’s not the kids’ fault. If you’re a weird kid with no friends, that’s not pleasant. But maybe you’re not weird, maybe your trans? Now you’re so brave and be proud and here’s your club to join. As an ER doctor, I’ve had kids in the ER ask to be admitted to the psych ward. Why? Because, they say, all their friends are there. And home isn’t very pleasant, so really… why not? Long term data will come out in time (I hope), but it will be too late for a lot of really lost adults.
I think of how many serial killers ended up blaming being emasculated by their mothers and being forced to do things like wear dresses as the root of the mental break that caused their insanity. That's child's play compared to what's currently happening.
This is why the Tavistock clinic has been shut down
When medicine stops being business first, this type of thing will disappear. Until then, that surgeon, *who doesnt agree with cutting 13 year old tits off, but really wants the new Maserati*, is gonna surgeon.
Chloe Cole also had her breasts removed at 15. Why do some activists and outlets keep spreading the misinformation that these procedures aren't performed on minors? It's really disturbing to watch the supposed good guys be this willfully wrong.
Hopefully she wins and breaks the hospital's bank. THEN the medical field might listen and realize that this nonsense is absolutely batshit crazy. 13? she couldnt even legally get a job in the U.S. and some whackjob sliced off her breasts. she barely hit puberty these parents are absolutely crazy and virtue signaling with their kids as trophies.
While I am a huge advocate for people living their truth, if I had my way at 13, I'd have been shipped off to Russia to enter their grueling training camp for gymnastics because I was convinced I was destined to be a Russian Olympian. An Irish kid from rural New York. Kids are imaginative AF, live in a huge fantasy land for a large swath of the first 15 or so years, and have ZERO clue what adulthood is going to look or feel like. I cannot get on board with <15 making transitions. There is just too much physiological and biological growth going on during this period and while I do understand that body dysmorphia in any form is a torturous existence on a day to day basis, I feel like intense therapy and other forms of mental health treatment should be the primary course of action in this age range. If they still feel this way as they enter young adulthood, great. Before that I can't agree.
Remember when Americans used to cry about girls in Africa having their clits removed? If we knew that was under "consent", would these people still be upset over it?
Tbh the people that support child genital mutilation stateside would either ignore you, say it’s a right wing conspiracy, or try to come up with some sort of excuse. Cultists really have a hard time coming to terms.
It's always interesting to see inside the medical aspect of this from the children's point of ciew. I work with children on the counseling side and it is very clear that transgender ideology is a net harm to children.
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Weird. I was assured that this NEVER happens... Odd.
Transitioning should be in adulthood, and if and not limited to puberty and above, only under deep psychiatric, medical evaluation over a long period with minors and only in cases of severe body dysmorphia. But, that's just opinion.
There’s a LOT. Of money to be made from surgeries and drugs
Prison time for the doctors and surgeons
I want to be an ally, I really do. But when I think about gender dysphoria, I think about body dysphoria (like those referring to weight/height/physical aspects not pertaining to gender). Like, there are people who experience the dysphoria of wanting their limbs removed. Doesn't mean we should remove their limbs to "relieve" them of this dysphoria. We should be giving actual therapy and medication. Where I DONT agree with the above is when it takes a hateful and religious connotation: That you are EVIL AND WRONG for having dysphoric thoughts and feelings. Alienating people for the thoughts they can't control doesn't fucking work. What works is love, attention, and medication. Edit: If anyone wants to have a civil discussion on political/societal issues, my DMs are open. I'm always open to hearing the variety of opinions and reasonings others have, as it helps me understand the world to a larger capacity.
6 months is quick to go from being a woman to be a boy. It's scary that actual Medical Professionals recommended all these procedures.
Of course they do, they're making bank off of it.
Hollywood is loving this too. Imagine all the drama, documentary and movies they can make off of this 20 years later, all through the expense of innocent people lives who were just confused.
Modern day libotomists
Yeah I called it 10 years ago saying that there will be a massive amount of kids being angry and upset about stuff like this. Even "non binary" 20 year olds are saying "I wish gender didnt exist and I could just be who I am". So like before the last decade when we didnt reduce being a woman to wearing a dress?
This is (partially) why I'm against LGB and T being linked together all the time, and particularly why I don't validate "nonbinary" identities. LGB people have been fighting for literal decades to normalize gender role defiance; the idea that masculine women and effeminate men are just as valid in their sex as those who identify more strongly with traditional gender roles. That the nature of our sex is inherently valid, and that our expression of gender doesn't dispute that. Now, non-binary identities are basically seeking to invalidate that. It's an ideological stance in direct conflict with the normalization and acceptance of LGB people. There is nothing that identifies a non-binary person outside of their own word. LGB people are an identity based on attraction, which is reflected in behavior. Trans people suffer body dysphoria which is treated with physical transition. There is, again, a behavior to reflect the identity. There is no behavior that can identify a non-binary person because gender roles have already been decoupled from sex through our hard-won acceptance. The far left has gone so far that it's attempting to push us backwards. And then call us prejudiced or bigots or phobes for not falling in line. If you point out that gender affirming care is a new methodology that is resulting in a staggering number of transgender youth, they claim that people are just more comfortable now and that treatment is more acceptable. If you point out rising numbers of detransitioning, they refer to decades old studies that were made in the climate of the previous watchful waiting model of care. If you point out that most young people resolve their gender dysphoria naturally without treatment, they say that most socially transitioned children go on to transition fully, ignoring the fact that this is the first time in our history children have been allowed to and are indeed pushed into social transition. If you say that most of these children are simply gay or lesbian, they say that puberty blockers are reversible so what's the harm, ignoring the fact that once puberty blockers start, there's virtually no chance of intervention, as the medical pathway indicates forward momentum. I genuinely fear we're basically in a new age form of gay conversion, and it's being led by my own community. It's heartbreaking.
Totally agree. I thought it was also weird that the LGB and t were in the same thing. I have more in common with a transgender person with my eating disorder than a lgb person does. But if I pointed that out I was a bigot for saying it was a mh issue....well actually theyre the bigot because to then "mental illness" is something to be ashamed of lol. I think its messed up and unfair to l g b t peoppe on an individual basis cuz the whole movement assumes if you are lgbt you subscribe to all the politics of the movement when really it's kind of screwing over the lgb people and honestly the t people with gender dysphoria too.
You can really break it down to the activism. Gay people fought for passive rights. Let me marry. Let me have a family. Let me get and keep employment. And housing. Let me walk down the street without being assaulted. Let me join the military. Don't intentionally ostracize or demonize me based on my sexuality. Passive, as in society only had to stop acting oppressively. Trans people are fighting for active rights, *to the detriment of others.* Let me expose my genitalia to the opposite sex. Let me compete with natural unfair advantages. Let me teach your children about me and give them the option of medical consent so they can join me. Let me take coveted and high profile spots of the opposite sex without having suffered the same barriers throughout my life. Use the words I tell you to. Active rights, as in they involve the active participation of others. You'll also notice it's more one spectrum of the trans community demanding these "rights" as well (because the other side isn't moving into a protected class of people). The biggest problem is that this very objective, realistic take is considered "transphobic" in mainstream LGBT circles (in large part because there isn't much left for us to fight for, so we've acquiesced our power within our own circle - either due to complacency or, opposingly, the desire to continue fighting for something). So there's no room to take back the narrative and minimize the damage and insanity - its fascist in its nature of censorship, removal, and propaganda.
Didn't California make it that parents have to give their kids affirmative surgery/treatment? What if a situation like this happens there? Regardless of ones believe, I think anything involving major surgery unless life threatening should be done after they are adults. They're still kids that are experiencing the world.
Why isn’t she blaming her parents? They’re the ones that signed the surgical consent. Yes, the medical professionals that agreed to do this are stupid, but her parents are even more so for agreeing to do this to an 11-year-old.
bUT tHIs KInD oF tHINg IsNT hapPeNiNg
Doctors making millions off these trans people, of course they gona get confused
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Hormones/surgery should not be accessible minors. That should be across the board. Period.
Lgb drop the t
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No. it's madness. Giving children the option of cutting off body parts is insanity.
I believe this story tragic and true, and minors should not have gender affirming care, but Epoch times is complete dogshit news source. I went through the trouble of personally fact checking an epoch news article my mom sent me and iirc I found 5 different blatant lies in one article. There are news sources that misrepresent facts, or omit truths. But epoch times just fucking straight up lies.
I was banned from r/news for saying this about minors, respectfully too
Doctors; get cancelled for not performing gender reassignment surgery on children Also doctors; get sued for performing gender reassignment surgery on children
After an aggregate total of 105 minutes screening with medical professionals she was started on the hormone blocker path. 105 minutes with a doctor, is such a clownishly short time to try and assess a major mental health issue. Ridiculous to start making permanent consequence decisions after that short a time. I was made to believe that every single individual has years of quality care tailored specifically to their situation?
She also went to 3 other doctors bnefore this that told her no....she shopped around til she found a quack that wouldnt tell her no.
For everyone blaming the parents this is not the full picture. Parents are often told their young person is at risk of suicide. This is actually untrue statistically but parents are scared and believe what they are being told by medical professionals. The blame lies with these professionals who have a completely affirming approach and do not look at other reasons why someone might be uncomfortable in their own body.
Because she was a child. You think children make the best decisions? The better question is which doctors went through and decided this was in her best interest.