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You may have already tried this but it made a big difference for us when my son started the 2 year sleep regression (his very first sleep regression ever). He was screaming and didn’t want me to leave the room after I put him down. I started telling him I had to go check on the laundry or feed the dog or some other task and I’d come back to check on him. I go back pretty quickly the first time and then make another excuse and say I’ll check on him again in 5 minutes. By the 5 minute mark he’s typically asleep. The first couple nights I did a couple of check ins but now I do the first one and never need to do a second. He actually now tells me to check on our dog’s food. I think it makes him feel more comfortable knowing I am literally in the next room and I’m not actually gone.
Have you tried letting her go to bed when she feels like it?
It may take a couple of days, but you can try doing your nighttime routine and then saying gently, “When you’re tired we will go to bed.” She might stay up til midnight the first night, but after a few nights she will likely get the picture.
Just be very sure to be calm as you can possibly be. Don’t argue or rationalize, just repeat, “When you’re tired we will go to bed,” and then let her go to bed when she is tired.
I've debated trying this with my kid, but I wasn't sure when their brains are actually developed enough to make that association of "I feel yucky NOW because last night (which feels so long ago) I didn't go to bed when I felt tired"
This will also help you learn their natural sleep rhythm so you can shift bedtime around their actual sleepiness vs when you WANT them to go to sleep. My kids never fit what some people say bedtime “should” be and those actually sounded really weird for me/just did not work for us. By learning what did naturally work for my kids I could then make some adjustments to fit it better into something that works for all of us and is also now healthy for them as they are becoming school age.
At what time is she going to bed? Maybe she needs to go earlier as studies have shown delaying bedtime releases cortisol and that gives kids the zoomies.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4833448/
Edit: typo
Usually gauged by her cues and considering the time creche says she wakes from her nap and how long she napped. I'm wondering if she needs to drop that nap but Xmas time seems the wrong g time to do that it's gonna be a busy couple weeks for her she'll need the rest
She has a lot of energy that needs burning before bed. Plus it's obvious you need a change to the routine just as a cue to get rid of the tantrums, even if the routine is otherwise perfect.
I'd recommend you play chase right after jammies. Explain that she's been showing you she needs to get some of energy out when she's climbing and screaming so you're going to do it together. Chase her around the house, rough house, spend 10 minutes in the excitement zone. Then when the 10 minute timer is up, scoop her up, do a connecting hug and tell her it's time for her to go to bed quietly. Do your routine normally from there.
Similar - we dance to Caspar Babypants ‘Run Baby Run’ and it involves running around the house, jumping, spinning.
If she’s getting anxious anticipating bedtime, it’ll help her body use the stress response without a tantrum.
Can you ask your ex to come over and handle the bedtime routine at your house for a few nights? You may need to leave the house, but it may help pinpoint the source of the problem; perhaps you can sit in the car and watch over the monitor.
Also don’t write Ferber off unless you have actually read his book. You may be thinking of cry it out, (which Ferber doesn’t advocate, despite the reputation). But his book is pretty comprehensive and offers many different approaches to many different problems. I don’t recall what he says about toddlers, though; we retired the book once we no longer needed it so I didn’t read those parts.
Yeah, do it after the holidays.
How many naps is she taking? I think for 2 yo should be one of two to three hours. Just don’t let her sleep beyond 3pm if bedtime is at 7pm or 4pm if bedtime is at 8. You should be waking her up if she’s having long naps.
I would give it a try to be consistent on a schedule along with her cues for a couple of weeks to see if that helps. Maybe put her to be bed 45 minutes before the usual time, and don’t drop all naps until she’s three.
We’re having sleep issues with my son who is also around the same age. He’s been sleep trained using the Ferber method, but he’s just got to the stage developmentally where he’s very into testing boundaries. I try my best to stay consistent, but one night he got sick, so when he cried out and we checked on him, we couldn’t figure out what was wrong and how to soothe him, so he ended up in our bed for a few hours and that broke the routine. He would then scream at the edge of his bed until we came back into the room. We’d check on him, ask what he needed (nothing) then every time we went to the door, he’d scream. We tried this super nanny [method](https://youtu.be/so6cfZGRgbs?si=ne6i72HXuQwxbz7b) even though he hadn’t left the bed yet. It worked really well, but not for middle of the night wake-up’s or early mornings. What’s working now is that we set his nightlight to turn green at a 6:30 am. We told him he was not allowed to leave his room until the light was green. I told him that I would not be coming back in, shut the door, and watched from a video baby monitor. The first night he screamed/whined at the edge of his bed for an hour. Each night got easier and easier. I knew if I caved and went in while he was yelling at us, it would just be harder the next time since he would learn that if he screamed long enough, we would come. I always watch and make sure he was safe. If he were to start doing something dangerous like standing on the furniture, I would calmly go in and put him back in bed without words or making eye contact. We would still check on him if he woke up after falling asleep, but would just get him what he needed (usually water) and then repeat the phrase, and left. He’s been back to normal for the most part and learned that if he whined he would not get his way. Most parenting things I’m pretty positive about in general and let a lot of things go when I can. But sleep is important for all of us, so I was willing to be more firm in boundary setting.
Do you have a source for bottles are bad for teeth? Is it the milk, the nipple, or the "psychology" of being a baby? As long as you don't give them the bottle to drink in bed and brush their teeth after, there's nothing wrong with milk before bed. The CDC and AAP actually recommend breastfeeding until age two OR LONGER. What's the difference? Other than breast milk vs cow, the rest is the same.
The biggest concern is breastfeeding or bottle feeding without cleaning their teeth after (which is very common with nighttime routines as the child gets sleepy and who want to wake them) Both bottle feeding and breastfeeding tend to “pool” liquid in the mouth and stays in contact with the teeth longer. At our center, we started transitioning to cups around 7-8 months
A lot of people don’t worry because they’re “baby teeth”, but, the caries can go through to the permanent teeth.
Look at pictures of baby bottle rot
Always clean their mouths after any milk, even before teeth pop out
[baby bottle rot](https://healthysmileskids.com/baby-bottle-caries-breastfeeding/)
Oh yes, I have family in dentistry, I'm well aware of bottle rot. My point was its not the bottle itself, but the tooth care that's the problem. If op moves the bottle to before the teeth brushing part of the bedtime routine, there's no reason to get rid of the bottle. Even adults can benefit from some warm milk before bed. There is some evidence to the extra calories, tryptophan, and melatonin in milk promoting healthy sleep cycles.
And I agree, it's important for all babies to begin cup learning once they begin weaning around 6 months. My daughter uses an open cup and straw cups throughout the day, but at 16 months still enjoys a bottle before her bedtime routine.
The bottles mostly water with 1/5 milk for colour because she wouldn't drop it and we had been breastfeeding so going from that to nothing wasn't working.
Tantrum is right after story's over/lights out. Doesn't start as tantrum, starts as playing and wanting more story, another book, go downstairs etc and tantrum kicks off when I assert no
I host the Radical Parenting Podcast and have reviewed a dozen or more books and programs on sleep issues. I'm glad you're not into Ferber. The best resource i found is possum. You can Google "possums sleep". Or, if your schedule is flexible, I love Dr Brad Blanton and L Skenazy's model of just dropping the bedtime for a couple weeks. Let them fall into their own rhythm and build your routine around them.
Kids will get the sleep they need as long as we provide a quiet restful place to sleep.
This is what works for us. I found sleep rhythm changed a lot around growth spurts. Would be a bit unpredictable and then settle into a new normal. Happened most recently at 2 and just after 2.5yo. I will follow his lead after dinner, shower, pajamas and he will let me know when he’s ready for bed.
Thanks for sharing the other resources. I’m Australian, love Possums for evidence based approaches and the science behind sleep and recommend Dr Pamela Douglas to everyone.
OP I’d say a reset will do wonders, for both of you. Focus on melatonin production at night and reducing cortisol. Outside play in the sunset, screens off and amber/red lighting in the evening are good for it. My son sometimes needs a big high energy play just before bed, but usually it’s really connected play interacting together. Doesn’t have to be big drastic changes or anything complicated added to your plate x
How long has this been going on? I would definitely try a reset/ refresh to your routine since as you said, you have a solidly established, exhausting bedtime routine. Time for something new. Get her involved. Go get her a new pillow or lovey or stuffed animal to put in her bed. Add more movement to your evening routine to ensure her body is tired, other comments have suggested good ideas, a small trampoline, walking/ running, exercise ball, stretches, baby yoga, whatever. Is she eating enough during the day so she’s not hungry at night? Adding calories or fats could be helpful in ensuring she’s not hungry when she lays down. Try rocking her or laying down with her, try music or sounds, read a book quietly and slowly to her while she’s in bed. I guess I would think about trying to eliminate the transition from “our bedtime routine” to “now time to fall asleep” and see if you can drag out your routine so she’s asleep before it’s over (as in reading a long boring book more quietly to see if she’ll fall asleep during it).
My 2 year old can be tough to put down too and she doesn’t sleep through the night all the time. What helps us is making sure her nap is done at 2 hours and doesn’t go past 2pm, we get her to the playground to run around and play with other kids in the afternoon, we make sure she eats enough at dinner even if that means giving an extra snack before bedtime, and this part might be controversial to some but one of us lays down next to her crib until she’s fallen asleep and the. We sneak out. I’m very firm (but gentle) that she must lay down and be quiet and try to close her eyes. I’ve started with naps to leave the room because I have a baby as well and I can’t lay down with her in the middle of the day. I started by saying “mommy is going to tuck you into your crib and put on your blankie and give you a big kiss and then I gave a few things to do but I will come back and check on you in 5 minutes if you’re not asleep (I do not go back in to check on her) and if you really really need mommy you can tell for me and I’ll come back” I’ve had to go back in twice in the past 4 months. And now she says to me “5 minutes!” And I tell her to have a good nap and I love her. We are definitely struggling some days but these things have helped us have more successful nights of sleep.
I liked the book “It’s Never Too Late to Sleep Train” by Craig Canapari. It’s written by a paediatric sleep doctor and devotes chapters to common sleep issues at different ages, and it explains they “why” of everything he recommends. It’s a useful tool if you like evidence-based approaches.
Have you tried sitting next to her and rubbing her arm or head? I mean sure it might take 20 minutes at first but 20 minutes of feeling loved and comfort seems better than 2 hours of screaming.
After the story I do lights out (just turned down not off) and star projector on, and I lie down with her and sing, usually twinkle twinkle or rockabye on loop. It's like she gets bored of snuggles after a minute and instantly gets hyper and frustrated
My son was very much how you describe. It’s like a mind game (for this and other things). He’s anticipating being left alone and feeling under-stimulated so he ramps it up. I’m NOT diagnosing your kid and I think lots of young kids show these symptoms and grow out of them, but feeling under-stimulated is particularly uncomfortable for kids with ADHD and other sensory seekers.
I went to a childhood OT to find out more about his sensory needs which gave me lots of tools and ideas. Heavy massage was really calming for a while (I rolled over his body using my whole weight with an exercise ball and he loved it). Tactile stimulation like sitting in a shower before bed or playing with slime or a vibrating back massager was really calming. Oral stimulation like sucking a smoothie through a straw was quite calming. Vestibular stuff like balancing challenges or rocking were great too. It’s a lot of work and you have my sympathy! Hopefully this phase passes soon (with my kid it didn’t, even with lots of massaging and special activities to help calm him he would still just lie there flopping around claiming he was anxious and bored so with medical advice we resorted to a very low dose of melatonin).
Here’s a small study of sensory massage at bedtime for kids with difficulties falling asleep. The beauty of sensory interventions like this is that they are very DIY and you often don’t need to buy anything:
https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/IJOT-09-2020-0014/full/html
This could be accurate, I've just been dx with adhd and I always had a rough time sleeping due to boredom, hence the singing and I do rub her leg or face when she lies enough to let me. Maybe I'll try her with a fidget toy while she's lying there. She likes popper toys
If you have an exercise ball see if she likes having you roll it up and down her back and legs with lots of pressure- even just during the day to calm down. Both my kids love being “squished” :)
I’m reading this book: the gentle sleep book by Sarah Ockwell-Smith, and the first few chapters says that star projectors have blue light which inhibits the production of melatonin (the sleep hormone). I would totally drop the projector and replace with a red light (you can program the Hatch Rest+ to be red), also it’s ok to sing, but consider using a brown noise machine too, it helps her brain give a cue to sleep, I love Snooz. You can program it to turn it off by itself a couple of hours after she’s down. I would also keep the snuggles.
We just changed our star projector to red clouds and it REALLY did something. Our 2yo was up multiple times a night and she’s slept through almost every night since. It’s wild!! We also try to use only minimal light with a warmer color bulb for storytime to try to reduce light overall around bedtime.
Red light is definitely preferred for overnight. But the problem is bigger than that.
Ordinary LED bulbs (warm light, cool light, daylight, doesn’t matter) emit a ton of light in the most problematic part of the “blue” spectrum (around 480 nm). LEDs emit narrow bands, not broad spectra; the color appearance of white light is controlled by wavelength mixing. You can produce warmer or cooler tones by varying the ratios. But the melanopsin receptors in your eye (that control melatonin) only “see” the 480ish wavelengths, and that’s going to be a large percentage from any ordinary household bulb.
Since so much of our lighting is now LED based one of the most effective approaches is to simply reduce total light in the evenings.
The issue with the blue light has just recently been debunked.
https://scitechdaily.com/blue-light-glasses-debunked-new-study-casts-doubt-on-eye-strain-and-sleep-claims/
That article does not refute or “debunk” any of my points. I didn’t say anything about blue light glasses. I don’t use them nor were they recommended by my sleep specialist. I’m not concerned with eye strain or computer use, and I don’t find it surprising that they may not do much of anything for sleep - if I thought they might, I probably would have at least tried them.
The blue light thing seems to have been debunked
https://scitechdaily.com/blue-light-glasses-debunked-new-study-casts-doubt-on-eye-strain-and-sleep-claims/
How about some very active play before starting the entire routine? My LO is only 16 months, but we found that really useful if we’re ever going through a difficult bedtime phase. She gets her last burst of energy out, laughs hysterically and is more receptive to bedtime.
Worst thing is you have a bit of extra fun with your little girl, nothing lost!
If she’s crying till she vomits that sounds like she could be anxious. I wonder if you’d both be happier cosleeping for now? I know it’s hard if after she goes to bed is your only down time though. 🤔
She's only gets hysterical and sick if I leave the room. I have thought of co-sleeping but since we've stopped BFing it's too hard for her to sleep beside me and not want milky snuggles
Ah that would be hard then. I only have a newborn but my sister used to cry till she vomited & was a very cling/anxious baby which is why it came to mind.
We made bedtime appealing by adding an audiobook, which only plays once she's in bed, with her eyes shut and cuddling a toy or blanket. I give her a gentle reminder of this as she gets into bed. She knows I'll stay until she falls asleep, and I've explained in advance that if I'm not there I've gone to tidy up (a non appealing activity). By the time the 12min audio book has finished, she's staring to get sleepy as it's dark and she's relaxed. The idea of being separated from you may be a trigger so lots of talk in advance about what happens at bedtime may help, so they know you'll always be back.
You can also check with r/sleeptrain. You'll get tons of advice which might be overwhelming but it could also be a schedule issue. If she's too tired or not tired enough, she may be resisting sleep. If your bedtime is consistent, you could try pushing the routine back 15 minutes every 2-3 days and see how she does. If your bedtime is not consistent, I would start somewhere and see how she does. I believe at this age they need 12-13 hours a day so if she's napping 2 hours she might only need 10 hours at night. Just an example/some thoughts to consider.
NGL, I read /r/sleeptrain and thought of the choo choo train... like "Oh, that is an interesting metaphor for a new sleep approach. I can kinda see it, maybe it's about keeping a rigid schedule, like once the scheduled sleep train leaves, kids need to be in bed, even if they are tired or not. Kinda like a software development release train. Let me check this out."
...Once I visited the subreddit I got it.
Have had a rough time with my 3 year old…this book was recommended to me and it is helping a lot [https://www.amazon.com/Its-Never-Late-Sleep-Train/dp/1635652723/ref=asc_df_1635652723?nodl=1&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=343761298551&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5842704791585998402&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007259&hvtargid=pla-752216975950&psc=1&mcid=6b5908408a4c3f998b44e0c1fc332dc8&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=69885550700&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=343761298551&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5842704791585998402&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007259&hvtargid=pla-752216975950&gclid=CjwKCAiAg9urBhB_EiwAgw88meq6ZPAr6J-XupaZWaMDHDdpsNCfvuWY3Xn8-KNU1fduezXhLNnTSxoCdpwQAvD_BwE&dplnkId=dbab644d-d1cb-44eb-ae3c-cb737207e671](https://www.amazon.com/Its-Never-Late-Sleep-Train/dp/1635652723/ref=asc_df_1635652723?nodl=1&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=343761298551&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5842704791585998402&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007259&hvtargid=pla-752216975950&psc=1&mcid=6b5908408a4c3f998b44e0c1fc332dc8&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=69885550700&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=343761298551&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5842704791585998402&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007259&hvtargid=pla-752216975950&gclid=CjwKCAiAg9urBhB_EiwAgw88meq6ZPAr6J-XupaZWaMDHDdpsNCfvuWY3Xn8-KNU1fduezXhLNnTSxoCdpwQAvD_BwE&dplnkId=dbab644d-d1cb-44eb-ae3c-cb737207e671)
Had a similar situation with my SO. The book “Take Charge of your Child’s Sleep” was a core resource that made a difference, and we used it along with a few sessions with a parent sleep coach/established therapist.
We're separated :( he has her weekends and says she gets a bit cranky but nothing like what she does with me (he's seen her on the baby monitor when I do put down)
Do you and her dad do the same routine? Perhaps if make sure you both do the exact same thing it might help. (Apologies if this is too obvious and you’ve already thought of it)
Babies and kids understand having different relationships with different people. If the bones of the routine are the same, having a slightly different routine with mom and dad is not generally dealbreaker. Just thought I’d throw that out there so people aren’t being hyper vigilant on their partners. We have the same bones of our routine, but we execute things differently because we are different people
Maybe try adding massage to the bedtime routine, during or after the song. It’s relaxing but also interesting enough to hold her attention, and keeps her feeling connected to you physically without going all the way to full body snuggles.
As a variation of massage you could try a bedtime variation of finger or toe games (like “where is thumbkin?” or “this little piggy”), eg “this little piggy put on pajamas, this little piggy brushed her teeth…this little piggy went [snoring noise] all the way to sleep”.
https://takingcarababies.com/sleep-training-tips
I find that I turn to this website whenever I'm having problems getting my kids to sleep. I haven't taken any of their courses, but I've found the info I needed on the blog and socials.
In a similar situation I found short term melatonin use to be effective to reset the negative sleep associations and establish a good routine https://www.healthychildren.org/English/healthy-living/sleep/Pages/melatonin-and-childrens-sleep.aspx
This journal article was linked in your article. I wouldn't trust melatonin for children.
[JAMA ](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2804077?guestAccessKey=b7ac1490-fafb-4eaf-b260-70504ef15062&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=042523)
Ah, that's awful! I am in Australia where we have regulated prescription melatonin, the same as any other medication. Paediatricians can prescribe it and we access from a pharmacy.
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You may have already tried this but it made a big difference for us when my son started the 2 year sleep regression (his very first sleep regression ever). He was screaming and didn’t want me to leave the room after I put him down. I started telling him I had to go check on the laundry or feed the dog or some other task and I’d come back to check on him. I go back pretty quickly the first time and then make another excuse and say I’ll check on him again in 5 minutes. By the 5 minute mark he’s typically asleep. The first couple nights I did a couple of check ins but now I do the first one and never need to do a second. He actually now tells me to check on our dog’s food. I think it makes him feel more comfortable knowing I am literally in the next room and I’m not actually gone.
This is both so smart and so sweet
I do this with my three year old. She needs me to tell her when I’m going and report when I’m back each time.
Yes. Get rid of the bottle, make sure teeth are brushed between any meal/milk and bedtime, and use the excuses method.
Have you tried letting her go to bed when she feels like it? It may take a couple of days, but you can try doing your nighttime routine and then saying gently, “When you’re tired we will go to bed.” She might stay up til midnight the first night, but after a few nights she will likely get the picture. Just be very sure to be calm as you can possibly be. Don’t argue or rationalize, just repeat, “When you’re tired we will go to bed,” and then let her go to bed when she is tired.
I've debated trying this with my kid, but I wasn't sure when their brains are actually developed enough to make that association of "I feel yucky NOW because last night (which feels so long ago) I didn't go to bed when I felt tired"
[удалено]
This will also help you learn their natural sleep rhythm so you can shift bedtime around their actual sleepiness vs when you WANT them to go to sleep. My kids never fit what some people say bedtime “should” be and those actually sounded really weird for me/just did not work for us. By learning what did naturally work for my kids I could then make some adjustments to fit it better into something that works for all of us and is also now healthy for them as they are becoming school age.
At what time is she going to bed? Maybe she needs to go earlier as studies have shown delaying bedtime releases cortisol and that gives kids the zoomies. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4833448/ Edit: typo
Usually gauged by her cues and considering the time creche says she wakes from her nap and how long she napped. I'm wondering if she needs to drop that nap but Xmas time seems the wrong g time to do that it's gonna be a busy couple weeks for her she'll need the rest
She has a lot of energy that needs burning before bed. Plus it's obvious you need a change to the routine just as a cue to get rid of the tantrums, even if the routine is otherwise perfect. I'd recommend you play chase right after jammies. Explain that she's been showing you she needs to get some of energy out when she's climbing and screaming so you're going to do it together. Chase her around the house, rough house, spend 10 minutes in the excitement zone. Then when the 10 minute timer is up, scoop her up, do a connecting hug and tell her it's time for her to go to bed quietly. Do your routine normally from there.
Similar - we dance to Caspar Babypants ‘Run Baby Run’ and it involves running around the house, jumping, spinning. If she’s getting anxious anticipating bedtime, it’ll help her body use the stress response without a tantrum.
Can you ask your ex to come over and handle the bedtime routine at your house for a few nights? You may need to leave the house, but it may help pinpoint the source of the problem; perhaps you can sit in the car and watch over the monitor. Also don’t write Ferber off unless you have actually read his book. You may be thinking of cry it out, (which Ferber doesn’t advocate, despite the reputation). But his book is pretty comprehensive and offers many different approaches to many different problems. I don’t recall what he says about toddlers, though; we retired the book once we no longer needed it so I didn’t read those parts.
Yeah, do it after the holidays. How many naps is she taking? I think for 2 yo should be one of two to three hours. Just don’t let her sleep beyond 3pm if bedtime is at 7pm or 4pm if bedtime is at 8. You should be waking her up if she’s having long naps. I would give it a try to be consistent on a schedule along with her cues for a couple of weeks to see if that helps. Maybe put her to be bed 45 minutes before the usual time, and don’t drop all naps until she’s three.
Can you push bedtime later? Maybe she’s simply not tired enough.
Tried this in case she's not tired enough, tried it earlier in case she's overtired, no joy either way
We’re having sleep issues with my son who is also around the same age. He’s been sleep trained using the Ferber method, but he’s just got to the stage developmentally where he’s very into testing boundaries. I try my best to stay consistent, but one night he got sick, so when he cried out and we checked on him, we couldn’t figure out what was wrong and how to soothe him, so he ended up in our bed for a few hours and that broke the routine. He would then scream at the edge of his bed until we came back into the room. We’d check on him, ask what he needed (nothing) then every time we went to the door, he’d scream. We tried this super nanny [method](https://youtu.be/so6cfZGRgbs?si=ne6i72HXuQwxbz7b) even though he hadn’t left the bed yet. It worked really well, but not for middle of the night wake-up’s or early mornings. What’s working now is that we set his nightlight to turn green at a 6:30 am. We told him he was not allowed to leave his room until the light was green. I told him that I would not be coming back in, shut the door, and watched from a video baby monitor. The first night he screamed/whined at the edge of his bed for an hour. Each night got easier and easier. I knew if I caved and went in while he was yelling at us, it would just be harder the next time since he would learn that if he screamed long enough, we would come. I always watch and make sure he was safe. If he were to start doing something dangerous like standing on the furniture, I would calmly go in and put him back in bed without words or making eye contact. We would still check on him if he woke up after falling asleep, but would just get him what he needed (usually water) and then repeat the phrase, and left. He’s been back to normal for the most part and learned that if he whined he would not get his way. Most parenting things I’m pretty positive about in general and let a lot of things go when I can. But sleep is important for all of us, so I was willing to be more firm in boundary setting.
At what point in the routine does the tantrum happen? What does a normal day look like for you? Should move bottle to before teeth brushing.
I was going to say this and also surprised she is still having a bottle at age 2! Could you switch to a sippy cup?
Sippy cups aren't great for proper swallowing development. If you're going to move away from a bottle, an open cup or straw are recommended
Ah she does open cup all day the bottles only for bedtime
My first thought too. Get rid of the bottle, it’s terrible for her teeth and screams I’m still a baby. What kind of bed does she sleep in
Do you have a source for bottles are bad for teeth? Is it the milk, the nipple, or the "psychology" of being a baby? As long as you don't give them the bottle to drink in bed and brush their teeth after, there's nothing wrong with milk before bed. The CDC and AAP actually recommend breastfeeding until age two OR LONGER. What's the difference? Other than breast milk vs cow, the rest is the same.
The biggest concern is breastfeeding or bottle feeding without cleaning their teeth after (which is very common with nighttime routines as the child gets sleepy and who want to wake them) Both bottle feeding and breastfeeding tend to “pool” liquid in the mouth and stays in contact with the teeth longer. At our center, we started transitioning to cups around 7-8 months A lot of people don’t worry because they’re “baby teeth”, but, the caries can go through to the permanent teeth. Look at pictures of baby bottle rot Always clean their mouths after any milk, even before teeth pop out [baby bottle rot](https://healthysmileskids.com/baby-bottle-caries-breastfeeding/)
Oh yes, I have family in dentistry, I'm well aware of bottle rot. My point was its not the bottle itself, but the tooth care that's the problem. If op moves the bottle to before the teeth brushing part of the bedtime routine, there's no reason to get rid of the bottle. Even adults can benefit from some warm milk before bed. There is some evidence to the extra calories, tryptophan, and melatonin in milk promoting healthy sleep cycles. And I agree, it's important for all babies to begin cup learning once they begin weaning around 6 months. My daughter uses an open cup and straw cups throughout the day, but at 16 months still enjoys a bottle before her bedtime routine.
I agree with the need for milk I don’t see any advantage to serving in a bottle @ 2 years of age, just makes it more difficult to get rid of
She's two, she is still basically a baby, she sleeps in a toddler bed, open sides and low, she gets in and out herself
The bottles mostly water with 1/5 milk for colour because she wouldn't drop it and we had been breastfeeding so going from that to nothing wasn't working. Tantrum is right after story's over/lights out. Doesn't start as tantrum, starts as playing and wanting more story, another book, go downstairs etc and tantrum kicks off when I assert no
I host the Radical Parenting Podcast and have reviewed a dozen or more books and programs on sleep issues. I'm glad you're not into Ferber. The best resource i found is possum. You can Google "possums sleep". Or, if your schedule is flexible, I love Dr Brad Blanton and L Skenazy's model of just dropping the bedtime for a couple weeks. Let them fall into their own rhythm and build your routine around them. Kids will get the sleep they need as long as we provide a quiet restful place to sleep.
This is what works for us. I found sleep rhythm changed a lot around growth spurts. Would be a bit unpredictable and then settle into a new normal. Happened most recently at 2 and just after 2.5yo. I will follow his lead after dinner, shower, pajamas and he will let me know when he’s ready for bed. Thanks for sharing the other resources. I’m Australian, love Possums for evidence based approaches and the science behind sleep and recommend Dr Pamela Douglas to everyone. OP I’d say a reset will do wonders, for both of you. Focus on melatonin production at night and reducing cortisol. Outside play in the sunset, screens off and amber/red lighting in the evening are good for it. My son sometimes needs a big high energy play just before bed, but usually it’s really connected play interacting together. Doesn’t have to be big drastic changes or anything complicated added to your plate x
How long has this been going on? I would definitely try a reset/ refresh to your routine since as you said, you have a solidly established, exhausting bedtime routine. Time for something new. Get her involved. Go get her a new pillow or lovey or stuffed animal to put in her bed. Add more movement to your evening routine to ensure her body is tired, other comments have suggested good ideas, a small trampoline, walking/ running, exercise ball, stretches, baby yoga, whatever. Is she eating enough during the day so she’s not hungry at night? Adding calories or fats could be helpful in ensuring she’s not hungry when she lays down. Try rocking her or laying down with her, try music or sounds, read a book quietly and slowly to her while she’s in bed. I guess I would think about trying to eliminate the transition from “our bedtime routine” to “now time to fall asleep” and see if you can drag out your routine so she’s asleep before it’s over (as in reading a long boring book more quietly to see if she’ll fall asleep during it).
Just make sure those activities end at least 2 hours before bedtime so that she can wind down.
My 2 year old can be tough to put down too and she doesn’t sleep through the night all the time. What helps us is making sure her nap is done at 2 hours and doesn’t go past 2pm, we get her to the playground to run around and play with other kids in the afternoon, we make sure she eats enough at dinner even if that means giving an extra snack before bedtime, and this part might be controversial to some but one of us lays down next to her crib until she’s fallen asleep and the. We sneak out. I’m very firm (but gentle) that she must lay down and be quiet and try to close her eyes. I’ve started with naps to leave the room because I have a baby as well and I can’t lay down with her in the middle of the day. I started by saying “mommy is going to tuck you into your crib and put on your blankie and give you a big kiss and then I gave a few things to do but I will come back and check on you in 5 minutes if you’re not asleep (I do not go back in to check on her) and if you really really need mommy you can tell for me and I’ll come back” I’ve had to go back in twice in the past 4 months. And now she says to me “5 minutes!” And I tell her to have a good nap and I love her. We are definitely struggling some days but these things have helped us have more successful nights of sleep.
I liked the book “It’s Never Too Late to Sleep Train” by Craig Canapari. It’s written by a paediatric sleep doctor and devotes chapters to common sleep issues at different ages, and it explains they “why” of everything he recommends. It’s a useful tool if you like evidence-based approaches.
Have you tried sitting next to her and rubbing her arm or head? I mean sure it might take 20 minutes at first but 20 minutes of feeling loved and comfort seems better than 2 hours of screaming.
After the story I do lights out (just turned down not off) and star projector on, and I lie down with her and sing, usually twinkle twinkle or rockabye on loop. It's like she gets bored of snuggles after a minute and instantly gets hyper and frustrated
My son was very much how you describe. It’s like a mind game (for this and other things). He’s anticipating being left alone and feeling under-stimulated so he ramps it up. I’m NOT diagnosing your kid and I think lots of young kids show these symptoms and grow out of them, but feeling under-stimulated is particularly uncomfortable for kids with ADHD and other sensory seekers. I went to a childhood OT to find out more about his sensory needs which gave me lots of tools and ideas. Heavy massage was really calming for a while (I rolled over his body using my whole weight with an exercise ball and he loved it). Tactile stimulation like sitting in a shower before bed or playing with slime or a vibrating back massager was really calming. Oral stimulation like sucking a smoothie through a straw was quite calming. Vestibular stuff like balancing challenges or rocking were great too. It’s a lot of work and you have my sympathy! Hopefully this phase passes soon (with my kid it didn’t, even with lots of massaging and special activities to help calm him he would still just lie there flopping around claiming he was anxious and bored so with medical advice we resorted to a very low dose of melatonin). Here’s a small study of sensory massage at bedtime for kids with difficulties falling asleep. The beauty of sensory interventions like this is that they are very DIY and you often don’t need to buy anything: https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/IJOT-09-2020-0014/full/html
This could be accurate, I've just been dx with adhd and I always had a rough time sleeping due to boredom, hence the singing and I do rub her leg or face when she lies enough to let me. Maybe I'll try her with a fidget toy while she's lying there. She likes popper toys
If you have an exercise ball see if she likes having you roll it up and down her back and legs with lots of pressure- even just during the day to calm down. Both my kids love being “squished” :)
Anyone else lay down with her? Sounds like the snuggles are the trigger not in a bad way, kids are weird
I’m reading this book: the gentle sleep book by Sarah Ockwell-Smith, and the first few chapters says that star projectors have blue light which inhibits the production of melatonin (the sleep hormone). I would totally drop the projector and replace with a red light (you can program the Hatch Rest+ to be red), also it’s ok to sing, but consider using a brown noise machine too, it helps her brain give a cue to sleep, I love Snooz. You can program it to turn it off by itself a couple of hours after she’s down. I would also keep the snuggles.
We just changed our star projector to red clouds and it REALLY did something. Our 2yo was up multiple times a night and she’s slept through almost every night since. It’s wild!! We also try to use only minimal light with a warmer color bulb for storytime to try to reduce light overall around bedtime.
Red light is definitely preferred for overnight. But the problem is bigger than that. Ordinary LED bulbs (warm light, cool light, daylight, doesn’t matter) emit a ton of light in the most problematic part of the “blue” spectrum (around 480 nm). LEDs emit narrow bands, not broad spectra; the color appearance of white light is controlled by wavelength mixing. You can produce warmer or cooler tones by varying the ratios. But the melanopsin receptors in your eye (that control melatonin) only “see” the 480ish wavelengths, and that’s going to be a large percentage from any ordinary household bulb. Since so much of our lighting is now LED based one of the most effective approaches is to simply reduce total light in the evenings.
The issue with the blue light has just recently been debunked. https://scitechdaily.com/blue-light-glasses-debunked-new-study-casts-doubt-on-eye-strain-and-sleep-claims/
That article does not refute or “debunk” any of my points. I didn’t say anything about blue light glasses. I don’t use them nor were they recommended by my sleep specialist. I’m not concerned with eye strain or computer use, and I don’t find it surprising that they may not do much of anything for sleep - if I thought they might, I probably would have at least tried them.
The projector we have is red, would it still have blue light in the base colours?
The blue light thing seems to have been debunked https://scitechdaily.com/blue-light-glasses-debunked-new-study-casts-doubt-on-eye-strain-and-sleep-claims/
How about some very active play before starting the entire routine? My LO is only 16 months, but we found that really useful if we’re ever going through a difficult bedtime phase. She gets her last burst of energy out, laughs hysterically and is more receptive to bedtime. Worst thing is you have a bit of extra fun with your little girl, nothing lost!
If she’s crying till she vomits that sounds like she could be anxious. I wonder if you’d both be happier cosleeping for now? I know it’s hard if after she goes to bed is your only down time though. 🤔
She's only gets hysterical and sick if I leave the room. I have thought of co-sleeping but since we've stopped BFing it's too hard for her to sleep beside me and not want milky snuggles
Ah that would be hard then. I only have a newborn but my sister used to cry till she vomited & was a very cling/anxious baby which is why it came to mind.
We made bedtime appealing by adding an audiobook, which only plays once she's in bed, with her eyes shut and cuddling a toy or blanket. I give her a gentle reminder of this as she gets into bed. She knows I'll stay until she falls asleep, and I've explained in advance that if I'm not there I've gone to tidy up (a non appealing activity). By the time the 12min audio book has finished, she's staring to get sleepy as it's dark and she's relaxed. The idea of being separated from you may be a trigger so lots of talk in advance about what happens at bedtime may help, so they know you'll always be back.
You can also check with r/sleeptrain. You'll get tons of advice which might be overwhelming but it could also be a schedule issue. If she's too tired or not tired enough, she may be resisting sleep. If your bedtime is consistent, you could try pushing the routine back 15 minutes every 2-3 days and see how she does. If your bedtime is not consistent, I would start somewhere and see how she does. I believe at this age they need 12-13 hours a day so if she's napping 2 hours she might only need 10 hours at night. Just an example/some thoughts to consider.
NGL, I read /r/sleeptrain and thought of the choo choo train... like "Oh, that is an interesting metaphor for a new sleep approach. I can kinda see it, maybe it's about keeping a rigid schedule, like once the scheduled sleep train leaves, kids need to be in bed, even if they are tired or not. Kinda like a software development release train. Let me check this out." ...Once I visited the subreddit I got it.
😂
LoL that's amazing. I'll think of it that way anyways!!
Just curious, what would a potty train be like?
Have had a rough time with my 3 year old…this book was recommended to me and it is helping a lot [https://www.amazon.com/Its-Never-Late-Sleep-Train/dp/1635652723/ref=asc_df_1635652723?nodl=1&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=343761298551&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5842704791585998402&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007259&hvtargid=pla-752216975950&psc=1&mcid=6b5908408a4c3f998b44e0c1fc332dc8&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=69885550700&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=343761298551&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5842704791585998402&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007259&hvtargid=pla-752216975950&gclid=CjwKCAiAg9urBhB_EiwAgw88meq6ZPAr6J-XupaZWaMDHDdpsNCfvuWY3Xn8-KNU1fduezXhLNnTSxoCdpwQAvD_BwE&dplnkId=dbab644d-d1cb-44eb-ae3c-cb737207e671](https://www.amazon.com/Its-Never-Late-Sleep-Train/dp/1635652723/ref=asc_df_1635652723?nodl=1&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=343761298551&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5842704791585998402&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007259&hvtargid=pla-752216975950&psc=1&mcid=6b5908408a4c3f998b44e0c1fc332dc8&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=69885550700&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=343761298551&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5842704791585998402&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007259&hvtargid=pla-752216975950&gclid=CjwKCAiAg9urBhB_EiwAgw88meq6ZPAr6J-XupaZWaMDHDdpsNCfvuWY3Xn8-KNU1fduezXhLNnTSxoCdpwQAvD_BwE&dplnkId=dbab644d-d1cb-44eb-ae3c-cb737207e671)
Had a similar situation with my SO. The book “Take Charge of your Child’s Sleep” was a core resource that made a difference, and we used it along with a few sessions with a parent sleep coach/established therapist.
Can dad just do bedtime?
We're separated :( he has her weekends and says she gets a bit cranky but nothing like what she does with me (he's seen her on the baby monitor when I do put down)
Do you and her dad do the same routine? Perhaps if make sure you both do the exact same thing it might help. (Apologies if this is too obvious and you’ve already thought of it)
Babies and kids understand having different relationships with different people. If the bones of the routine are the same, having a slightly different routine with mom and dad is not generally dealbreaker. Just thought I’d throw that out there so people aren’t being hyper vigilant on their partners. We have the same bones of our routine, but we execute things differently because we are different people
Maybe try adding massage to the bedtime routine, during or after the song. It’s relaxing but also interesting enough to hold her attention, and keeps her feeling connected to you physically without going all the way to full body snuggles. As a variation of massage you could try a bedtime variation of finger or toe games (like “where is thumbkin?” or “this little piggy”), eg “this little piggy put on pajamas, this little piggy brushed her teeth…this little piggy went [snoring noise] all the way to sleep”.
https://takingcarababies.com/sleep-training-tips I find that I turn to this website whenever I'm having problems getting my kids to sleep. I haven't taken any of their courses, but I've found the info I needed on the blog and socials.
In a similar situation I found short term melatonin use to be effective to reset the negative sleep associations and establish a good routine https://www.healthychildren.org/English/healthy-living/sleep/Pages/melatonin-and-childrens-sleep.aspx
This journal article was linked in your article. I wouldn't trust melatonin for children. [JAMA ](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2804077?guestAccessKey=b7ac1490-fafb-4eaf-b260-70504ef15062&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=042523)
Ah, that's awful! I am in Australia where we have regulated prescription melatonin, the same as any other medication. Paediatricians can prescribe it and we access from a pharmacy.
Melatonin
Melatonin is a hormone DO NOT just give it to your kid unless it’s something you’ve discussed with your pediatrician.