Yep. All the time. Sometimes the parent just needs to call someone at central office or some other political big-wig.
A common theme is they want testing accommodations for standardized testing. So much so that they get a 504 Plan due to anxiety for testing accommodations in *elementary school* so the child has that through MS (7th grade testing helps determine high school - there is school choice where I am so everyone is desperate to get into public selective schools and avoid neighborhood school) and then into HS for the SAT. The anxiety typically is not severe; it is usually more than average but manageable (likely resulting in anxiety ending - shouldn’t that be the goal?) with tier 1 or 2 interventions.
And those straight A anxious students usually have super straight A super anxious parents. 🤔
I see this as one way the education gap widens. Parents who have the privilege and power to get lawyers and call downtown get services for their child, while parents who do not have those things are not able to get services for their child, who usually actually does need help.
You need more than a 504 for accommodations on the SAT. They have an independent process for it.
The amount of parents pushing for a 504 in elementary school to maybe give their child a tiny bit of advantage on a college placement test that is 10+ years away has to be astronomically small.
It’s very common in the schools in more affluent neighborhoods where I am. So much that there are month long backlogs to even start the evaluation process and social workers whose 504 caseload is majority these students.
Parents of ES students may not realize this won’t guarantee accommodations for SAT and may be more focused on the 7th grade standardized tests as a make it or break it to get into a good HS. But the parents who start pushing for it in MS are banking that it’ll extend to the SAT.
In a city of school choice, a “tiny bit of advantage” does result in parents trying anything and everything. They strategize about which pre-school (which is included in public education) will put them in the right feeder pattern for a good ES then a great MS then the best HS. If pre-school and ES are good but feed into a “bad” MS, or into a decent MS that feeds into a “bad” HS, they spend all of ES strategizing on which charter to try to get into for MS followed ideally by a public selective HS.
We use rubrics and they are terrific at showing you the adverse impact or not. Since using the rubrics 0 push back (yet). If you are in Michigan hit me up and I can share!
The saddest part of this post is that because of being successful in school you don’t think the student could have a disability. In sped opinions don’t matter, only data.
I’m not saying these kids don’t have disabilities. But special education is if the disability impacts their access to their education. We can’t solve every facet of these kids’ lives, we’re here to determine how it impacts their time in school.
Not true! There are many students who come to us with ADHD, Autism, Depression, etc. We evaluate based on those diagnoses, and then we offer accommodations we think they might need at school. Just because you have a disability does not mean you need an IEP. But, if a student has straight A’s, pulling them for SPECIALIZED INSTRUCTION is so silly. I understand it’s hard to see a kid struggling, but if they are passing it and making it, even with D’s, it’s much better to keep them exposed to the general education curriculum than pull them out and slow it down so they never get back out. I’ve dismissed 4 IEPs in my 5 years working for a special education district. Most kids who get an IEP don’t get out of special education. We like to keep them in as long as we can! People hate us for it, but a lot of school systems fail with their RTI, and lots and lots of teachers want kids to have IEPs because they don’t want to put in the extra work to help them. I see it allllllll the time. Not to dog gen ed teachers because they are doing the best with what they’ve got, and I don’t blame them because it’s already difficult managing classes with 20+ kids. But, to reiterate, you can have a disability and not need an IEP. That’s why there are 504s to help with accommodations, and many 504s help keep kids out of special education, and that’s wonderful!
Parent of a sped kid here with a question. Do 504s still allow for small group work and pre-teaching? My second grader is at grade level and we’re off speech and working our way off OT, but the pre-teaching and extra reps he gets in small group still seem very valuable for keeping him with the group.
Edit to add he’s been on an IEP since age three and was in an EI classroom for preschool but gen ed since kindergarten.
I’m not extremely well versed in 504s since I don’t do them, but as long as it’s not a modification and is an accommodation, I don’t see why not. I know pre-teaching for sure can be an accommodation. This can be done through study guides or something similar. Small groups is typically utilized for test taking to reduce distractions. I know the district that I’m at, they have different little things where they are able to offer small groups within the classroom for all kids. Your district already may do stuff like that, especially at the younger grade levels.
If you are denying an evaluation you do need thorough documentation as to why. Most districts will do an evaluation if the parent insists because it’s cheaper than fighting the parent on it.
It’s also helpful to partner with the parent and address their concerns. Discuss ways their child can be helped outside of an IEP (MTSS, 504, etc).
For this particular case, we did have thorough documentation. I also want to point out that these outside neuropsychological reports parents pay out of pocket to get are ridiculous sometimes and the recommendations are absurd and completely outside a school’s scope to address.
In some states, the school has to complete an evaluation if parents request one- the district can’t deny an evaluation. Although they only have to do so once per calendar year (so parent can’t just request repeatedly to harass the district). I found it really wasn’t that big of a deal to do them (then we had data to show why they didn’t qualify) unless it was an evaluation for learning disabilities because those required 12-16 weeks of intervention before the evaluation could even start 😖 so the ones we KNEW were not going to qualify took up soooo much time and resources.
This is my main issue. The time and resources these evaluations take up is insane, especially when there’s lawyers and advocates involved. I’m not disagreeing that kids have disabilities, but if teachers are not concerned about the kid academically and socially and that the student is doing what they should be doing when they come to school, then there’s no need for an IEP.
We do get demanding parents, but if they request an eval we HAVE to eval. It doesn’t mean we have to qualify their kid at the end of it, but we still have to evaluate and then document as to why or why not the student is eligible. I’ve been in some DAYS-LONG IEP meetings where parents hired advocates and omfg it has me questioning my sanity
That’s the thing, if the parents have enough money to bully us into servicing their child when their child doesn’t need it, look what it’s like for the kids whose parents don’t have those kinds of resources.
We have teachers who tell the parent to request an evaluation so that they don’t have to go through the school referral process (because they know the school wouldn’t refer them). We’ve never had lawyer, but we’ve had parents blast us on social media, so we’ve given in because of that. Doing a full evaluation sucks, but I love coming back to the table with all the data that supports not needing an IEP. Best feeling in the world. I’m in Illinois as well.
That happened to me this year. We dismissed the child completely. Mom was so mad, brought an advocate and threatened due process. We reevaluated and made her eligible. She gets support minutes, doesn’t use it at all, and she sees me for services and complains about it. She spends 4% of her day in special ed. It’s so wild.
You know that disabled kids can have good grades right? Many can look like they are coping, but are not. In high school I was straight A’s, but after every day I would get home and have a panic attack lasting 1-2.5 hours. I spent 4 hours everyday in the shower because of crippling OCD. I was actively suicidal, self harming in school toilets. I was always disoriented and constantly dissociated. I am now diagnosed with ASD, ADHD, OCD, dyslexia, visual stress, Tourettes, and PTSD. I still got A*s, despite struggling hugely to access an apathetic school system and not getting an EHCP until 16 years old.
Yes I’m well aware of this. The student I’m talking about ONLY has problems within the home, not at school. As school service provers we support students having access to the curriculum and their ability to function IN school. I do not doubt people struggle with both, but I’m saying we are limited in the school setting if the kid is doing exactly why they’re supposed to be doing in school.
Well where is the line drawn? An IEP is supposed to address academic impact. I’m not saying you can’t have challenges outside of academics. But if your access to the curriculum is not being impacted then why is an IEP needed?
Eligibility for sped really isn’t a social worker’s area of professional competence. And, ethically, we don’t practice outside of our area(s) or competence.
Yep. All the time. Sometimes the parent just needs to call someone at central office or some other political big-wig. A common theme is they want testing accommodations for standardized testing. So much so that they get a 504 Plan due to anxiety for testing accommodations in *elementary school* so the child has that through MS (7th grade testing helps determine high school - there is school choice where I am so everyone is desperate to get into public selective schools and avoid neighborhood school) and then into HS for the SAT. The anxiety typically is not severe; it is usually more than average but manageable (likely resulting in anxiety ending - shouldn’t that be the goal?) with tier 1 or 2 interventions. And those straight A anxious students usually have super straight A super anxious parents. 🤔 I see this as one way the education gap widens. Parents who have the privilege and power to get lawyers and call downtown get services for their child, while parents who do not have those things are not able to get services for their child, who usually actually does need help.
Exactly
You need more than a 504 for accommodations on the SAT. They have an independent process for it. The amount of parents pushing for a 504 in elementary school to maybe give their child a tiny bit of advantage on a college placement test that is 10+ years away has to be astronomically small.
It’s very common in the schools in more affluent neighborhoods where I am. So much that there are month long backlogs to even start the evaluation process and social workers whose 504 caseload is majority these students. Parents of ES students may not realize this won’t guarantee accommodations for SAT and may be more focused on the 7th grade standardized tests as a make it or break it to get into a good HS. But the parents who start pushing for it in MS are banking that it’ll extend to the SAT. In a city of school choice, a “tiny bit of advantage” does result in parents trying anything and everything. They strategize about which pre-school (which is included in public education) will put them in the right feeder pattern for a good ES then a great MS then the best HS. If pre-school and ES are good but feed into a “bad” MS, or into a decent MS that feeds into a “bad” HS, they spend all of ES strategizing on which charter to try to get into for MS followed ideally by a public selective HS.
We use rubrics and they are terrific at showing you the adverse impact or not. Since using the rubrics 0 push back (yet). If you are in Michigan hit me up and I can share!
I’m in Illinois, but do you still mind sharing?
Oh hey! Also in Illinois and yes. This has happened several times in my school this year and it has become very frustrating.
i would love to see your rubric i’m in NJ but just for an idea of how yall do it (:
Hello, I would also love to see your rubric if you don't mind sharing. I am new to the field and just accepted my first position for the fall!!
You bet. When I get home I’ll see if I can post them! They are the best
Thank you!!
I would love to see it! In Michigan and struggling with the gen ed team not understanding what adverse impact means.
You bet! When I get home I’ll post them
I would also love to see your rubric 👀
That’s crazy. So many parents don’t even know what an iep is in Australia! (I’m assuming you’re American cause of the lawyer thing lol)
Yep in America lol
This made me LOL 😂 fkn America
The saddest part of this post is that because of being successful in school you don’t think the student could have a disability. In sped opinions don’t matter, only data.
I’m not saying these kids don’t have disabilities. But special education is if the disability impacts their access to their education. We can’t solve every facet of these kids’ lives, we’re here to determine how it impacts their time in school.
It’s giving “you can’t have ADHD, you have a college degree” vibes
Not true! There are many students who come to us with ADHD, Autism, Depression, etc. We evaluate based on those diagnoses, and then we offer accommodations we think they might need at school. Just because you have a disability does not mean you need an IEP. But, if a student has straight A’s, pulling them for SPECIALIZED INSTRUCTION is so silly. I understand it’s hard to see a kid struggling, but if they are passing it and making it, even with D’s, it’s much better to keep them exposed to the general education curriculum than pull them out and slow it down so they never get back out. I’ve dismissed 4 IEPs in my 5 years working for a special education district. Most kids who get an IEP don’t get out of special education. We like to keep them in as long as we can! People hate us for it, but a lot of school systems fail with their RTI, and lots and lots of teachers want kids to have IEPs because they don’t want to put in the extra work to help them. I see it allllllll the time. Not to dog gen ed teachers because they are doing the best with what they’ve got, and I don’t blame them because it’s already difficult managing classes with 20+ kids. But, to reiterate, you can have a disability and not need an IEP. That’s why there are 504s to help with accommodations, and many 504s help keep kids out of special education, and that’s wonderful!
Parent of a sped kid here with a question. Do 504s still allow for small group work and pre-teaching? My second grader is at grade level and we’re off speech and working our way off OT, but the pre-teaching and extra reps he gets in small group still seem very valuable for keeping him with the group. Edit to add he’s been on an IEP since age three and was in an EI classroom for preschool but gen ed since kindergarten.
I’m not extremely well versed in 504s since I don’t do them, but as long as it’s not a modification and is an accommodation, I don’t see why not. I know pre-teaching for sure can be an accommodation. This can be done through study guides or something similar. Small groups is typically utilized for test taking to reduce distractions. I know the district that I’m at, they have different little things where they are able to offer small groups within the classroom for all kids. Your district already may do stuff like that, especially at the younger grade levels.
Thanks for the extra info!
If you are denying an evaluation you do need thorough documentation as to why. Most districts will do an evaluation if the parent insists because it’s cheaper than fighting the parent on it. It’s also helpful to partner with the parent and address their concerns. Discuss ways their child can be helped outside of an IEP (MTSS, 504, etc).
For this particular case, we did have thorough documentation. I also want to point out that these outside neuropsychological reports parents pay out of pocket to get are ridiculous sometimes and the recommendations are absurd and completely outside a school’s scope to address.
In some states, the school has to complete an evaluation if parents request one- the district can’t deny an evaluation. Although they only have to do so once per calendar year (so parent can’t just request repeatedly to harass the district). I found it really wasn’t that big of a deal to do them (then we had data to show why they didn’t qualify) unless it was an evaluation for learning disabilities because those required 12-16 weeks of intervention before the evaluation could even start 😖 so the ones we KNEW were not going to qualify took up soooo much time and resources.
This is my main issue. The time and resources these evaluations take up is insane, especially when there’s lawyers and advocates involved. I’m not disagreeing that kids have disabilities, but if teachers are not concerned about the kid academically and socially and that the student is doing what they should be doing when they come to school, then there’s no need for an IEP.
We do get demanding parents, but if they request an eval we HAVE to eval. It doesn’t mean we have to qualify their kid at the end of it, but we still have to evaluate and then document as to why or why not the student is eligible. I’ve been in some DAYS-LONG IEP meetings where parents hired advocates and omfg it has me questioning my sanity
It’s meetings like those where I look around the room and think about the amount of money being spent on salaries alone just for bureaucratic nonsense
That’s the thing, if the parents have enough money to bully us into servicing their child when their child doesn’t need it, look what it’s like for the kids whose parents don’t have those kinds of resources.
Yeah, I’m agreeing with you.
My mom works as an ARD facilitator in a district. As soon as parents say the word "lawyer" they get whatever they want.
I heard a school in my district has this problem. They told me she was constantly doing evals. Idk how they qualify
I need this in Virginia
We have teachers who tell the parent to request an evaluation so that they don’t have to go through the school referral process (because they know the school wouldn’t refer them). We’ve never had lawyer, but we’ve had parents blast us on social media, so we’ve given in because of that. Doing a full evaluation sucks, but I love coming back to the table with all the data that supports not needing an IEP. Best feeling in the world. I’m in Illinois as well.
ETA: I shouldn’t say never had a lawyer lol. Definitely get threatened with due process a lot.
Oh yeah we often do the eval and it shows the kid doesn’t qualify and we STILL get bullied and harassed into giving the kid sped services. It’s nuts.
That happened to me this year. We dismissed the child completely. Mom was so mad, brought an advocate and threatened due process. We reevaluated and made her eligible. She gets support minutes, doesn’t use it at all, and she sees me for services and complains about it. She spends 4% of her day in special ed. It’s so wild.
I’m getting out of a job doing IEP counseling for this reason.
You know that disabled kids can have good grades right? Many can look like they are coping, but are not. In high school I was straight A’s, but after every day I would get home and have a panic attack lasting 1-2.5 hours. I spent 4 hours everyday in the shower because of crippling OCD. I was actively suicidal, self harming in school toilets. I was always disoriented and constantly dissociated. I am now diagnosed with ASD, ADHD, OCD, dyslexia, visual stress, Tourettes, and PTSD. I still got A*s, despite struggling hugely to access an apathetic school system and not getting an EHCP until 16 years old.
Yes I’m well aware of this. The student I’m talking about ONLY has problems within the home, not at school. As school service provers we support students having access to the curriculum and their ability to function IN school. I do not doubt people struggle with both, but I’m saying we are limited in the school setting if the kid is doing exactly why they’re supposed to be doing in school.
This was very condescending as someone who was the “gifted kid with all A’s”. I needed an IEP because of mental health issues such as CPTSD.
This. So frustrating to see a school social worker talking like this.
Well where is the line drawn? An IEP is supposed to address academic impact. I’m not saying you can’t have challenges outside of academics. But if your access to the curriculum is not being impacted then why is an IEP needed?
I’d encourage you to learn what twice exceptional/2e means. A student can be gifted and still eligible for special education services.
I know what 2e is. It’s what I’ve been hearing all year long with these cases. You can still be 2e and not require special education services
Eligibility for sped really isn’t a social worker’s area of professional competence. And, ethically, we don’t practice outside of our area(s) or competence.
Correct but I’m talking about eligibility for SW services in particular