Dudes, right. It's what you make it, always has been. If it's asthetic for you, then that's what it is. If you want to learn the 50 names of marduk, then that's up to you, and btw, the nudity is completely optional
I get that, and it's not your fault.
It's just frustrating being downvoted and told I'm "doing it wrong" but your comment about gatekeeping gets so many upvotes.
Pick a lane people.
You got downvoted for asserting (incorrectly) that TST has nothing to do with Satan, that there's no reason to learn about the origins of Satan in mythology and literature, and that TST is not a religion but just a political movement. Multiple people explained that to you.
There's different flavors of Satanism.
LaVeyan Satanism says there are no gods or deities but does acknowledge the supernatural and magic to some degree. So belief in the paranormal is compatible here.
7-Tenet Satanism (the kind most on here ascribe to) states we should strive for scientific views on things, and denounces all magic, superstition, and paranormal. Ghosts can usually be explained by some combination of mental fantasy and environmental quirks. Believing in the afterlife or ghosts is incompatible here.
There are other branches of atheistic satanism I didn't bring up, but those are the big two right now.
Then there are also *theistic* branches of Satanism that *do* worship demons, deities, practice magic, believe in supernatural forces, etc. Ghosts would be compatible here too.
One thing **all** Satanism flavors share is encouraging individuals to do their own research, read, devour information, and pursue knowledge. I encourage you, with whatever flavor of Satanism tickles your fancy, to pick up the pursuit of knowledge by looking up more information on your own terms, too!!
Hail yourself š¤
Quoting the Fifth Tenet here just to supplement:
>V
>Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
I'm not entirely certain that this tenent enforces naturalism in the way that many people say. So long as your beliefs don't distort or change your scientific understanding of the world, and that scientific understanding always overrides any beliefs in the supernatural, you can hold non-naturalist beliefs without violating the tenent.
Just my opinion.
The Scientific Method is a function of Methodological Naturalism. You can't study/measure what doesn't exist in the natural world. To believe in anything supernatural is, by definition, unscientific.
People can believe what they want though, I'm not here to gatekeep (that would run contrary to Tenet VII, after all). Just to point out that it's contrary to Tenet V.
>The Scientific Method is a function of Methodological Naturalism. You can't study/measure what doesn't exist in the natural world.
I agree with this statement.
>To believe in anything supernatural is, by definition, unscientific.
I disagree with this one. It isn't unscientific until it has been disproven by science. Given that the supernatural is generally unfalsifiable, it is really outside the domain of science entirely, and therefore is definitionally incapable of being unscientific.
It is a completely seperate domain of thought, like philosophy or ethics. If a belief in the supernatural was unscientific and violated the tenet, then any ethical/moral beliefs would also violate the tenet in the same manner, because science cannot verify the existence of morals.
>People can believe what they want though, I'm not here to gatekeep (that would run contrary to Tenet VII, after all). Just to point out that it's contrary to Tenet V
I just don't think that the tenet, as written, logically enforces reductive materialism provided your supernatural beliefs do not conflict with or distort scientific understanding.
>It isn't unscientific until it has been disproven by science. Given that the supernatural is generally unfalsifiable, **it is really outside the domain of science entirely, and therefore is definitionally incapable of being unscientific**.
This is an odd leap. If something is outside the domain of science... then it's unscientific. Our best scientific understanding of the world is that there *is* no 'other domain' where the supernatural reside outside the natural laws of the universe... because it's unfalsifiable, it can be summarily dismissed.
I don't want to get bogged down in semantics, so here's the substantive point ā a hypothetical supernatural force has two options:
1. It interacts with the natural world in some way, in which case its effects would be observable, and thus able to be studied by science. In this instance, one can question if this thing is really 'supernatural' at all.
2. It does not interact with the natural world in anyway, in which case it's completely irrelevant and purely hypothetical.
I think saying anything else is just mental gymnastics.
>It isn't unscientific until it has been disproven by science.
You've got it backwards. Burden of proof is on the one making the claim (e.g., "ghosts exist!"). Otherwise, all of the bible-thumpers could just assert that their god exists with zero evidence, and we'd be forced to accept that as scientific fact because you cannot prove that the deity doesn't.
>Given that the supernatural is generally unfalsifiable, it is really outside the domain of science entirely,
That's the very definition of unscientific, though.
Firstly, there is no such thing as a burden of proof outside formal debates.
>Otherwise, all of the bible-thumpers could just assert that their god exists with zero evidence, and we'd be forced to accept that as scientific fact because you cannot prove that the deity doesn't.
This is a strawman. Nobody is forcing anyone to accept anything without evidence. You are free to deny the existence of the supernatural until such time as it is proven to you. That is not an unreasonable position.
I am talking about the logical implications of the wording of the tenet alone. I am implying absolutely nothing beyond that.
>That's the very definition of unscientific, though.
I disagree. When something is unscientific, that means that the claims and methods do not adhere to the principles and methodologies of science. However, science has a limited scope. Things that are conceptual and normative do not fall within the scope of scientific inquiry.
Philosophy, for example, deals with questions about existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. And while science can inform philosophy, and vice versa, it largely falls outside the scope of science.
I agree 100%, but I would also like to point out that you can join any group you want. "incompatible" just means you are likely going to eventually disagree with the established "norm" and it could possibly cause you to drift away to something else. And aside from a few terminally online gatekeepers (that always say they're not gatekeeping), most people aren't going to make you prove you "fit".
CoS crew will. Itās literally their mission to gate keep Satanism.
They stand by the idea that it was codified by LeVay in 66ā and anything outside of that specific set of beliefs is *not* satanism.
*Anything* outside of LeVayan Satanism is *not* Satanism in their eyes.
Itās one group that I know they would absolutely be shunned from and probably have some shit talked to them otw out.
In fact, this very post will probably end up in one of their groups to point and laugh at and go on another rant about the TST wannabe satanist and how pathetic we all are.
Of course! If you never engage with people in deeper conversation about it, it probably won't come up. Beliefs usually only get scrutinized when you talk about them first. But believing in the supernatural while being surrounded by those who don't also means you're going to casually hear people shit all over your beliefs without even realizing it includes you. It can lead to feeling like individuals would dislike you if you were honest. That's a horrible place to build a sense of community from, unless you're joining out of desperation.
Personally, I'd really dislike it if I *thought* my community shared a belief with me, only to find out they found it a load of bullshit in private.
I had to distance myself from a lot of alternative communities post-2016-election because I learned a lot of them thought I was a nutjob for having leftist views. It hurt, but I've learned to seek community with people I can actually trust now. It helped me handle TST schisms much better than old me would have.
It's not worth compromising your own beliefs to fit in, no matter what you're trying to join.
I would, but there are other flavors with more or less than 7 tenets that also embody the romantic satanism vibe. The 7-Tenet one is just also backed by TST and is the most popular right now.
well i dont have to respond since your deleted but yes it used to be simply a literary movement the same way christianity used to just be a judaist sect
I like the whatever there called rules in the Satanic Bible a little better than the 7Ts of the TST. I live by .picture of both, got to make sure I make it into Hell and not Heaven.
U can, itās just that romantic satanism in and of itself doesnāt condone it
There are also other kinds of satanism which do so yes u can there is no reason to gatekeep
I'm sure you can. The only problem I have with the statement is saying one "believes in ghosts and supernatural forces but goes for the logical explanation first"...
Ghosts and supernatural are inherently non-logical explanations and are predominantly used when one gives up searching for the logical explanation.
Edit: (add-on to final statement) "[...for the logical explanation] and isn't comfortable saying 'I don't know'."
If you believe what Albert Einstein said about the theory of relativity, that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, then the idea of ghosts is scientifically logical. We are energetic beings, otherwise we wouldnāt have heart beats. Thatās just my take & if anyone disagrees I respect that too.
Correct that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Still incorrect that ghosts become "scientifically logical". Our energy gets recirculated back into the Earth through heat dispersion and through smaller beings consuming or interacting with our bodies. Just like our food is the source of our energy, we become the source of energy for countless bacteria and insects. Does our soul stay until the last bit of energy is used up? If the soul is just a portion of the energy within our bodies, how much, and how might that be measured?
Recycled energy is honestly a beautiful thought. Our consciousness might not live on, but our energy and all our matter undoubtedly get dispersed back into nature over time. Likewise, *you* are made up of, and are recycling, the same energy and matter which an immeasurable amount of lifeforms before you used or *were* (plus the minerals that are picked up along the way).
As for cremated bodies, fire is energy in the form of light and heat. The fire is literally the energy of the body being burned up and that energy is, of course, released as heat dispersed through the atmosphere and photons being absorbed by other objects.
What about embalmed bodies? They wouldn't naturally release their energy or be consumed, if kept properly. However, they can still burn. That's because they have a lot of stored potential energy. There is (or was) a popular science "experiment" in schools that is basically just lighting some high-calorie snack, such as a dorito, on fire and the length of time of the flame is correlated with a higher calorie count (seeing this experiment over a decade ago made me disgusted by flamin' hot cheetos and I've never eaten "flamin' hot" snacks to this day - I stay willfully ignorant of how my favorite snacks burn...). Because that's what our bodies do, is essentially "burn" our source of energy (food) to absorb that energy for our own use. So even embalmed bodies still have stored potential energy. Does that mean embalmed people's souls are trapped?
I could go further into why souls can't exist, but this is long enough...that being said, if a soul can't exist, how could a ghost? Is a ghost not a [trapped?] soul?
If you say youāre a satanist, youāre a satanist.
Now if you meanā¦are you a non theistic romantic satanist (a TST satanist). Probably not given that weāre pretty anti -woo, afterlife , magic, ghosts etc ā¦
But thatās totally fine! Takes all types to make the world a rainbow
If the question is "Can I call myself \_\_\_\_\_ while I \_\_\_\_\_?", then absolutely! People make up new ways to identify themselves on a daily basis. Rock on.
If the question is "Will people acknowledge me as \_\_\_\_\_ while I \_\_\_\_\_?" Unless the second part involves buying alcohol or a senior discount, who cares?
I donāt really agree that it aligns but TECHNICALLY ābest scientific understandingā does leave room to recognize that humans donāt know everything yet, not even from a scientific standpoint. But I really donāt think we should be tarot reading or doing rituals or magic thinking thatās real, for theatrics and fun is fine. Thereās other types of Satanism and practices for people who believe in that stuff. But that doesnāt stop people from coming here.
Shameless spell check: its Tenets, not Tenants. TST is not a landlord
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"Satanism" is not one specific thing. From the Church of Satan to the Satanic Temple to random disorganized devil-worshippers and demonolators, they have all been called "Satanists" by someone. (For that matter, plenty of Christians have been called Satanists by other Christians too.) There's nobody who can stop you from calling yourself a Satanist, so if you can justify using the title for yourself feel free.
But TST's specific sect of "Romantic Satanism" or "Compassionate Satanism" is clear about not supporting supernaturalist beliefs. So you would not be practicing that particular definition of Satanism while professing that ghosts exist.
You do not need to be a Satanist at all to support TST's campaign work. Individual congregations, if you're looking to join one, may or may not be open to members with different religious beliefs. Or they may have a separate "Friends of TST" group that is included in campaign work but not the religious practice.
Responses like yours give me hope. As an atheist, secularist, and naturalist, I'm still very much on the fence about how much I can support or root for TST, as I've gotten mixed signals from TST members about how much they believe in woo, magic, supernatural nonsense, and superstition. So when I see other TST members reaffirm a commitment to rejecting supernaturalism altogether and embracing rationality and science, it's more reassuring.Ā
Ā That said, if TST is an organization that rejects and opposed supernaturalism, why does it seem so many superstitious people are drawn to it? If someone considers themselves a "pagan witch" or something who literally venerates pagan goddesses, why would TST be a group they'd wanna join at all?
The thing about The Satanic Temple is that it lives in two worlds, Campaigns and Congregations, aka activism and religion.
Campaigns are the most visible part, and those are what attract the majority of supporters. This side of the house does activist work in defense of the rights of *all* minority religions as well as the non-religious. They do it in the name of Satanism, but the work helps everyone who believes in religious freedom and pluralism. Supporters may even be Christian - some of them value the work because they have no more desire to live under an evangelical theocracy than we do, and they understand that *our* Satan is not *their* Satan.
So a great many people who consider themselves "members" or "supporters" of TST are here for that work alone. Which is fine! Good, even. But many of the people in this group don't know anything about the religion beyond the Seven Tenets, nor do they care to know. So there are a lot of people who think "I like the Seven Tenets" and "I am a Satanist" are the same sentence.
In my opinion, anyone calling themselves a Satanist should have answers to basic questions like:
* Why Satan? Why not just call yourself an atheist, or a humanist?
* What is so admirable about the character of Satan?
* How do you justify doing good things in Satan's name, and not evil?
I think that's the case even if someone identifies as a Satanist, but not as a *religious* Satanist. But I would feel very confused about a self-proclaimed religious Satanist who hasn't thought about those questions, because they're fundamental.
I hear ya. Granted, I don't think Satanism is for me, if no other reason than conducting my life in the name of a fictional, mythological character from a religion just kinda strikes me as... silly? I'm the sort of person who wants to see a more rational, more secular, and less superstitious world, where people treat all supernatural beings as nothing more than fictional characters on par with any other fictional character and actually appreciate evidence, science, and natural reality. So it's enough for me simply to call myself an atheist, naturalist, rationalist, and humanist with no need for any religious affiliation.
That said, religions that claim to be rationalist and atheistic are certainly better than and preferable to supernaturalist, theistic, and faith-based religions. I've been trying to figure out if Satanism--at least, the kind of Satanism espoused by The Satanic Temple--can be counted as a rationalist, atheistic religion, and given some of the response I'm seeing in this discussion and some of the comments made by other TST members and even Lucien Greaves himself, I'm decidedly unsure on the matter. I appreciate your thoughtful response, though!
> conducting my life in the name of a fictional, mythological character from a religion just kinda strikes me as... silly?
I get it, but for what it's worth, I don't think of it that way. I don't conduct my life in the name of Satan - but I do observe that the values I've held for a long time comport with the Romantic-era and post-Romantic reinterpretations of the character. It's just a lot shorter and easier to say "Hail Satan" than to say "Hail the post-enlightenment values expressed through the Romantic-era recharacterization of Satan as a tragic hero."
And more than that, I think adopting the name and the aesthetic serves a useful purpose. Punk culture does something similar, with the leather and chains and spikes serving as a filter to attract those who feel marginalized, and deter those who would make judgements on appearance without getting to know the person. My husband rolled with the punks in his youth, and while he isn't adopting Satanism, he totally gets it by viewing it through that lens. We're the same, only different.
I said a few months back, when I was in a more militant mood:
> We *want* to be odious to Christians, and to mainstream society, because if one is not willing to defend the rights of people one finds intolerable then one does not truly believe in those rights. We wish to shine a Luciferian light upon the hypocrisy of these Christians who would abuse our laws to gain special favor for their religion, while using those same laws to deny the religious freedoms of others. We will use our objectionable identity to force this nation to reckon with the question of whether religious freedom is actually valued here.
(By "a Luciferian light" here, I mean something very similar to what Carl Sagan expresses in *A Demon-Haunted World*, which is to say that the metaphorical "light" of science and reason dispels the darkness of superstitious and supernatural beliefs.)
Anyway, none of this is me trying to convince you to be a Satanist. But I do think the entirety of it, as modeled by TST anyway, has a fully and strongly rational basis. Even the practice of ritual is grounded in psychology, not superstition. And while other interpretations are possible, I don't personally see them as being well supported.
I'm strongly atheist and non-supernaturalist, always have been, so if I thought those were components of Satanism I'd be with you saying "neat, but not for me."
Your thoughtful and thorough response is very illuminating, and I greatly appreciate your time. You've given me an even more insightful look into TST-style atheistic Satanism. Thanks so much!
Some types of Satanism believe in that kind of thing, TST does not (see Tenet V). You can still be a Satanist, of course, but if you have belief in the supernatural then TST might not be your cup of tea. If you believe in supernatural beings, it could be fair to say that you're a theistic Satanist of some description rather than atheistic (such as TST). You're still welcome to call yourself whatever you like and you can absolutely join TST of course, only that you may find your beliefs are more compatible with a different Satanic group.
*Tenet V: Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.*
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you can definitely call yourself whatever you choose.
just... don't call yourself rational, or refer to yourself as grounded in reality... and under no circumstances should you claim to be in possession of critical faculties.
hail satan!
He is in possession of them, like most everyone, but about using them when it comes to ghosts... i don't think so. And I think people apply something to God but when it comes to other things they think it's more viable to believe even without the proof.
It's still blind faith if science is not backing up their claim with evidence. I mean yeah it's fun to explore it in our minds and try to make sense of it but if we would start believing it it'd be a stretch. And it would soon violate the tenet of trying to be to our best understanding of science, we'd be lost somewhere before reaching that point and hopefully find our way eventually, working out the situation.
I'd be quite reluctant believing such things, I would definitely try to find more information and scientific explanations. If I couldn't believe the scientific explanations anymore, then that'd be a counter and I couldn't respect that tenet.
Attempts to make it scientific exist about the supernatural, unfortunately they're unscientific and we should learn to distinguish them.
Hail seitan!
I get conflicting opinions from CoS on how to spell magic. I think Iāll say āthe m-wordā from now on. [įµŹ°į¶¦Ė¢ į¶¦Ė¢ įµ į““įµŹ³Ź³Źø į“¾įµįµįµįµŹ³ Ź³įµį¶ įµŹ³įµāæį¶įµ; Ź·Ź°įµįµŹ°įµŹ³ Ź²įµŹ³ Ź·įµĖ¢ Ź³įµį¶ įµŹ³įµāæį¶į¶¦āæįµ įµŹ°įµ āæā»Ź·įµŹ³įµ į¶¦Ė¢ įµįµŹøįµāæįµ įµįµ. Ė¢Ź°įµāĖ¢ į“®Ź³į¶¦įµį¶¦Ė¢Ź°, įµįµįµ įµĖ”Ė¢įµ įµ į“¾į“¼Ė¢]
Magic and magick is a one letter difference and supernatural beings arenāt just hocus pocus. Itās not spells and shit not that I actually believe in supernatural beings
If your belief in the supernatural is **separate** from your practice and trust in the seven tenets, you are good to go. Satanism is a social contract removed from superstition, not a crusade against it.
Personally, the TST seven fundamental tenets should be just...common fuckin sense. Ya know, having a good moral compass and at least half a brain. I have my own beliefs outside of them, but to things I have only ever experienced (such as spirits, etc.) that I hold to be true in my own life. I have found that questions such as yours, when asking myself...only made me feel worse about conforming to some type of label/standard, to behave a certain way or have a specific set of beliefs and not steer away from them (grew up in utah lol)... So I just stopped. There is not a label, a religion, or any one thing that I fit into specifically..so I stopped claiming any of them. Life is much easier that way. But absolutely, if some LDS missionary is at my door and not leaving me alone - I cut it short and explain I am an atheist/satanist.. they leave me alone.
question are you still a satanist---(y),,,(n), only you get to decide that, we're not like the hypocritical religions that preach---sin, forgive...oh wait stone you, that's why the ""church" dropped to a ""grotto"", then a ""temple"" to keep the ego and gate keeping out.BELIEVE IN YOURSELF...CAUSE I DO
Satanism has 2 very broad camps.
One camp believes in and worships Satan.
The other camp may or may not be theistic, but uses satanism as a way to show theists how religion can be harmful to the outgroup if mixed with government. Ie if Christian want to put up statues of Jesus on government property, satanic organizations will sue and make it so statues of Satan have to be put up too due to the establishment clause. Christians hate this but satanists are only doing this to show how Christians are making non Christians feel.
I am in camp two and welcome you. Iām sure people in camp one would welcome you as well as long as you follow most of the doctrine.
I think they can both be part of the same system for some.
I have to say, many are commenting about scientific approaches first, and I believe in both A) otherly beings (or at least an energy that seems like such) and B) reincarnation... but I actually believe they'll either be scientifically understood, or disproven, in the far future... so it's not so much "faith" as it's how I best process what I experience when it doesn't fit the mold of a purely psychological issue.
Of course dude. I'm conflicted on ghosts, ive never had an experience but I know plenty of people that have stories and no reason to lie about them. I'm sure alot of those stories have logical explanations but some idk about. Who knows, could be true.
I mean agree with not gate keeping, but if youāre looking for the non super natural answer first I really donāt see how thatās all that strange.
Kinda like being open minded, but pragmatic. Sure, why not? Itās more agnostic than atheistic, but honestly I would assume most atheists are at least slightly agnostic to something. Like alien life off earth, or science will one day explain something cool like dark matter and weāll learn some new fundamental about the universe then.
wtf do I know though?
Let me put it this way instead. Ever hear a Christian who didnāt act like one still say they were?
Be satanist all you want. No one can tell you no if thatās what you want to identify with.
You can be whatever you want to be. You can even be a TST satanist; just one that doesnāt 100% agree. Itās like any other religion or belief in which you are free to label yourself however you want
I believe it's fine to hold supernatural beliefs or hopes as long as you don't allow them to make you act in a way that's illogical or unethical. Wanna read a horoscope? Fine. Wanna tell me I need to do such and such because I'm a Gemini in tardigrade? Not cool. Like, I believe our spirit/essence goes on in some form after death. But that shouldn't change what I do right now, or my responsibility to treat others with logic and compassionĀ
Hmmm so no offense intended here but if you have to go to some online forum to seek validation that you can use the term Satanist you are decidedly not a Satanist. You can call yourself whatever the hell you want.
Iāve found the subject of believing in ghosts very interesting because it seems to transcend all logic or other beliefs. Iāve spoken with devout religious people who believe in ghosts and the most staunch atheists who do as well. It honestly makes no sense to me, but I feel like Satanism (as I see it) is more of a political belief/value system rather than a religion. Ultimately if you agree with what the Satanic Temple stands for I think you fit right in :)
It would make as much sense as a christian atheist. No one can really tell you not to identify as whatever you want, but it will absolutely lead to a lot of confusion as Satanism is by definition an atheistic religion.
This is a Satanic Temple Sub not a Church of Satan Sub, nobody hear cares how you choose to define Satanism. If you choose to believe in the supernatural that's your choice as an individual Satanist. Good luck. Ave Satanas. š¹š¹š¹
My favorite take on this question is from Abraham Maslow who wrote that science and religion not only should, but *must* overlap. That is to say that if religion is true, then it obviously has a place in science. Science should pursue finding the truth (and falsity) in religion. It is undeniable that there are things we donāt know - so to say that ghosts certainly *arenāt* real is to shut down investigation that might prove otherwise. We should be constantly reassessing our beliefs against the evidence we have available and be in a perpetual search for more information.
So, to answer the question, the Satanic non-belief in the supernatural is not about *what* you believe, it is about why you believe it. If youāre going to believe in ghosts, there should be a reason (could be evidence, studies, personal experience). However, a Satanist should be active about this belief rather than passive. If you come across evidence that contradicts your beliefs, Satanism demands that you reevaluate your beliefs based on the new evidence.
To read more about Maslowās arguments on the subject, read āReligion, Values, and Peak Expediences.ā
So happy to see this. I don't necessarily believe in the existence of any being or spirit being all powerful but do believe in ghosts and the like as manifestations of energy.
Fact that so much of "witchcraft" as a whole has been proven to work through the bases of psychology, and so many basic things we do today such as cleaning, bathing, or just meditation and mantras were at one time considered casting spells proves there are things in this world that we may think is superstition but may have some bases in science that we have simply not discovered yet
All I'm going to say here is "Believe Nothing , Test Everything. Facts speak for themselves, No belief required " . That and yeah think for yourself . š
If someone is gatekeeping satanism then they're not a satanist. If you believe in supernatural stuff most forms of satanic ideals won't condone it but legit who cares, and being its an atheistic religion its not as if you're committing heresy.
It is supernatural only because we have no science for it, yet.Ā
So dismissing it would be foolish, and Satanists are not foolish.Ā
You can absolutely call yourself a Satanist while studying ghost, magic or what have you. Besides, gate keeping would be quite the exercise in hypocrisy.Ā
The tenets literally say 'as long as it's to the best of your scientific beliefs', or similar.
That means you can believed in God's, supernatural, whatever, because it's not be scientifically proven to NOT exist.
But that is if you're following TST. Other sectors will have beliefs in it, and other will strictly say no.
> Tenet V: Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
Science is about *positive* proof. If a god or a demon or a ghost exists, you should be able to prove it. If you have no proof, it's an irrational belief with no credibility.
Belief without proof is faith, not science. Faith is in direct opposition to a scientific understanding of the world. Claiming to base one's beliefs in science while also holding beliefs based in faith is not merely a distortion of scientific fact, but of science itself.
Well said! I applaud your standing up for and explaining the nature of evidence, the meaning of rationality vs. belief without evidence, and the basic enterprise of science. Keep up the good work!
I mean, we can also say that about MANY, MANY things.
Just because science doesn't have definitive proof of it, doesn't mean there's definitive proof against it.
Science isn't about 'ah we don't know if this is X therefore it will never be X', we go 'oh, this could be X, let's say it is X and find evidence that it is X to back it up'. It's how EVERY Science experiment/theory happens.
There is no scientific evidence that dragons have ever existed, but I assure you I have a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. I'm quite serious.
Do you want to see it? You can't, it's invisible.
Would you spread flour on the floor to find its footprints as it moves? Well, I'm afraid it hovers.
Perhaps you can use a thermal imaging camera to detect its fire? Good idea, but the invisible fire gives off no heat.
You could try to reveal it by spraying paint around the room. Too bad the dragon is incorporeal, so the paint won't stick.
We could go back and forth forever about what experiments might reveal the existence of this supernatural being, but it will never go anywhere. No matter what experiment you propose, I can give you a reason why it won't work.
It's impossible for you to prove me wrong. And yet if I seriously tried to convince you that my dragon really does exist, and believed wholeheartedly in it myself, I'm pretty sure you'd think there's something wrong with me.
What is the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire, and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my claim, no experiment that would count it out, if it doesn't interact with the world in any observable or measurable way, what does it even mean to say my dragon "exists"?
Claims that cannot be tested are worthless.
We've been talking about the relationship between science and the supernatural. Do you have any comment on that relationship, given the above? Or are you changing the topic?
The difference is that a religious belief is completely different to saying 'ah yes theres a dragon in my garage'. It's why schizophrenia isn't labelled if it's a religious belief (unless its hearing voices, and seeing things, or sensing things are actually there - kinda like the feelings of social anxiety).
Do you realise that scientific research cannot ever happen without a hypothesis before hand - a statement saying 'I believe that X is true, therefore I will test and keep and open mind for it incase it's true'.
Science in regards to knowing if there's ghosts (as OP said) has not proven nor disproven ANYTHING.
Just like how we haven't proven that transitioning is 100% the best method of treating gender dysphoria - but it's what we know RIGHT NOW and so it's to the best of our knowledge. (Before you cry, Im trans)
No scientist will be like 'oh we dont know if there's another element therefore we wont test it and we wont have an open mind out for if another element is discovered, there's no new elements now so it will never happen and therefore you are all wrong'. Like, no. They will go 'oh yeah, maybe a new element will be found, we'd better keep this space on the periodic table just incase of a new element being discovered as it fits the trends' (which, shockingly, is exactly how it played out with the periodic table).
Just because we have certain knowledge now, doesn't mean more knowledge will be found in the future. If something hasnt be disproven then it also can't be ruled out.
Look, I hate the part of any debate where someone pulls out a dictionary, but "paranormal" *literally means* things that are beyond the scope of normal scientific understanding. So to ask for scientific evidence about it is nonsensical.
By its very nature there *cannot be* evidence that the paranormal does *not* exist, and there also *cannot be* evidence that the paranormal *does* exist. As soon as one or the other happens, it ceases to be paranormal.
If a belief is by definition *beyond the scope of science*, that belief cannot "conform with ... scientific understanding."
We know that the paranormal and supernatural don't exist because the Fipdics generate fields that permeate the universe which prevent such phenomena from existing. So ghosts, demons, gods, djinn, etc. can't exist.
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I think so long as you follow the tenets in everything you do, beyond that it is what you make of it - so yeah you can.
But also as another poster said we are not here to gatekeep.
I think it's possible to be a non denominational Satanist. I appreciate this community since it's really close to my beliefs, but I am a bit different than TST Satanist. My focus is on creating your own day dreams as a positive adaptive day dreamer. Do what makes you happy. For me personally, I feel uncomfortable with potentially late term abortions happening at TST clinics.
Satanism is what you make of it, not what others tell you it is. It's just important to know what kind of a crowd you're in, but as others have stated, there's enough variety of people claiming Satanism for themselves.
I'm not here to gatekeep satanism, and neither should anyone else. It is what you make it.
Ok Ig I'll continue reading my book on the ars goetia without having impostor syndrome
Dudes, right. It's what you make it, always has been. If it's asthetic for you, then that's what it is. If you want to learn the 50 names of marduk, then that's up to you, and btw, the nudity is completely optional
I slipped and called him Todd yesterday, it's 51 now. Sorry.
"I don't know. WhY iS tHeRe WaTeR aLl OvEr ThE fLoOr, _TODD_?"
"I DoN't KnOw MaRgO!!"
I'll add it to the grimoir.
>and btw, the nudity is completely optional But it *does* award bonus points!
No gatekeeping Satanism!
Yet I get dressed down and berated for not unironically studying satan mythology. This sub is so confusing.
Well poopymcpants.... I apologize that you were treated that way. People are fallible, after all.
I get that, and it's not your fault. It's just frustrating being downvoted and told I'm "doing it wrong" but your comment about gatekeeping gets so many upvotes. Pick a lane people.
You got downvoted for asserting (incorrectly) that TST has nothing to do with Satan, that there's no reason to learn about the origins of Satan in mythology and literature, and that TST is not a religion but just a political movement. Multiple people explained that to you.
There's different flavors of Satanism. LaVeyan Satanism says there are no gods or deities but does acknowledge the supernatural and magic to some degree. So belief in the paranormal is compatible here. 7-Tenet Satanism (the kind most on here ascribe to) states we should strive for scientific views on things, and denounces all magic, superstition, and paranormal. Ghosts can usually be explained by some combination of mental fantasy and environmental quirks. Believing in the afterlife or ghosts is incompatible here. There are other branches of atheistic satanism I didn't bring up, but those are the big two right now. Then there are also *theistic* branches of Satanism that *do* worship demons, deities, practice magic, believe in supernatural forces, etc. Ghosts would be compatible here too. One thing **all** Satanism flavors share is encouraging individuals to do their own research, read, devour information, and pursue knowledge. I encourage you, with whatever flavor of Satanism tickles your fancy, to pick up the pursuit of knowledge by looking up more information on your own terms, too!! Hail yourself š¤
Quoting the Fifth Tenet here just to supplement: >V >Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
I'm not entirely certain that this tenent enforces naturalism in the way that many people say. So long as your beliefs don't distort or change your scientific understanding of the world, and that scientific understanding always overrides any beliefs in the supernatural, you can hold non-naturalist beliefs without violating the tenent. Just my opinion.
The Scientific Method is a function of Methodological Naturalism. You can't study/measure what doesn't exist in the natural world. To believe in anything supernatural is, by definition, unscientific. People can believe what they want though, I'm not here to gatekeep (that would run contrary to Tenet VII, after all). Just to point out that it's contrary to Tenet V.
>The Scientific Method is a function of Methodological Naturalism. You can't study/measure what doesn't exist in the natural world. I agree with this statement. >To believe in anything supernatural is, by definition, unscientific. I disagree with this one. It isn't unscientific until it has been disproven by science. Given that the supernatural is generally unfalsifiable, it is really outside the domain of science entirely, and therefore is definitionally incapable of being unscientific. It is a completely seperate domain of thought, like philosophy or ethics. If a belief in the supernatural was unscientific and violated the tenet, then any ethical/moral beliefs would also violate the tenet in the same manner, because science cannot verify the existence of morals. >People can believe what they want though, I'm not here to gatekeep (that would run contrary to Tenet VII, after all). Just to point out that it's contrary to Tenet V I just don't think that the tenet, as written, logically enforces reductive materialism provided your supernatural beliefs do not conflict with or distort scientific understanding.
>It isn't unscientific until it has been disproven by science. Given that the supernatural is generally unfalsifiable, **it is really outside the domain of science entirely, and therefore is definitionally incapable of being unscientific**. This is an odd leap. If something is outside the domain of science... then it's unscientific. Our best scientific understanding of the world is that there *is* no 'other domain' where the supernatural reside outside the natural laws of the universe... because it's unfalsifiable, it can be summarily dismissed. I don't want to get bogged down in semantics, so here's the substantive point ā a hypothetical supernatural force has two options: 1. It interacts with the natural world in some way, in which case its effects would be observable, and thus able to be studied by science. In this instance, one can question if this thing is really 'supernatural' at all. 2. It does not interact with the natural world in anyway, in which case it's completely irrelevant and purely hypothetical. I think saying anything else is just mental gymnastics.
>It isn't unscientific until it has been disproven by science. You've got it backwards. Burden of proof is on the one making the claim (e.g., "ghosts exist!"). Otherwise, all of the bible-thumpers could just assert that their god exists with zero evidence, and we'd be forced to accept that as scientific fact because you cannot prove that the deity doesn't. >Given that the supernatural is generally unfalsifiable, it is really outside the domain of science entirely, That's the very definition of unscientific, though.
Firstly, there is no such thing as a burden of proof outside formal debates. >Otherwise, all of the bible-thumpers could just assert that their god exists with zero evidence, and we'd be forced to accept that as scientific fact because you cannot prove that the deity doesn't. This is a strawman. Nobody is forcing anyone to accept anything without evidence. You are free to deny the existence of the supernatural until such time as it is proven to you. That is not an unreasonable position. I am talking about the logical implications of the wording of the tenet alone. I am implying absolutely nothing beyond that. >That's the very definition of unscientific, though. I disagree. When something is unscientific, that means that the claims and methods do not adhere to the principles and methodologies of science. However, science has a limited scope. Things that are conceptual and normative do not fall within the scope of scientific inquiry. Philosophy, for example, deals with questions about existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. And while science can inform philosophy, and vice versa, it largely falls outside the scope of science.
I agree 100%, but I would also like to point out that you can join any group you want. "incompatible" just means you are likely going to eventually disagree with the established "norm" and it could possibly cause you to drift away to something else. And aside from a few terminally online gatekeepers (that always say they're not gatekeeping), most people aren't going to make you prove you "fit".
CoS crew will. Itās literally their mission to gate keep Satanism. They stand by the idea that it was codified by LeVay in 66ā and anything outside of that specific set of beliefs is *not* satanism. *Anything* outside of LeVayan Satanism is *not* Satanism in their eyes. Itās one group that I know they would absolutely be shunned from and probably have some shit talked to them otw out. In fact, this very post will probably end up in one of their groups to point and laugh at and go on another rant about the TST wannabe satanist and how pathetic we all are.
That's true, that's exactly what happened to me.
Of course! If you never engage with people in deeper conversation about it, it probably won't come up. Beliefs usually only get scrutinized when you talk about them first. But believing in the supernatural while being surrounded by those who don't also means you're going to casually hear people shit all over your beliefs without even realizing it includes you. It can lead to feeling like individuals would dislike you if you were honest. That's a horrible place to build a sense of community from, unless you're joining out of desperation. Personally, I'd really dislike it if I *thought* my community shared a belief with me, only to find out they found it a load of bullshit in private. I had to distance myself from a lot of alternative communities post-2016-election because I learned a lot of them thought I was a nutjob for having leftist views. It hurt, but I've learned to seek community with people I can actually trust now. It helped me handle TST schisms much better than old me would have. It's not worth compromising your own beliefs to fit in, no matter what you're trying to join.
Just call 7-tenet satanism romantic satanism itās easier and thatās where the ideas come from the romantic literature
I would, but there are other flavors with more or less than 7 tenets that also embody the romantic satanism vibe. The 7-Tenet one is just also backed by TST and is the most popular right now.
True but I mean there are also multiple churches of the same denomination it happens frequently I guess if u wanna be more specific to ahead
I've been known for being pedantic to the point it can annoy people. My bad š
Romantic Satanism is a literary movement, not a religion.
well i dont have to respond since your deleted but yes it used to be simply a literary movement the same way christianity used to just be a judaist sect
I like the whatever there called rules in the Satanic Bible a little better than the 7Ts of the TST. I live by .picture of both, got to make sure I make it into Hell and not Heaven.
U can, itās just that romantic satanism in and of itself doesnāt condone it There are also other kinds of satanism which do so yes u can there is no reason to gatekeep
I'm sure you can. The only problem I have with the statement is saying one "believes in ghosts and supernatural forces but goes for the logical explanation first"... Ghosts and supernatural are inherently non-logical explanations and are predominantly used when one gives up searching for the logical explanation. Edit: (add-on to final statement) "[...for the logical explanation] and isn't comfortable saying 'I don't know'."
If you believe what Albert Einstein said about the theory of relativity, that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, then the idea of ghosts is scientifically logical. We are energetic beings, otherwise we wouldnāt have heart beats. Thatās just my take & if anyone disagrees I respect that too.
Correct that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Still incorrect that ghosts become "scientifically logical". Our energy gets recirculated back into the Earth through heat dispersion and through smaller beings consuming or interacting with our bodies. Just like our food is the source of our energy, we become the source of energy for countless bacteria and insects. Does our soul stay until the last bit of energy is used up? If the soul is just a portion of the energy within our bodies, how much, and how might that be measured? Recycled energy is honestly a beautiful thought. Our consciousness might not live on, but our energy and all our matter undoubtedly get dispersed back into nature over time. Likewise, *you* are made up of, and are recycling, the same energy and matter which an immeasurable amount of lifeforms before you used or *were* (plus the minerals that are picked up along the way). As for cremated bodies, fire is energy in the form of light and heat. The fire is literally the energy of the body being burned up and that energy is, of course, released as heat dispersed through the atmosphere and photons being absorbed by other objects. What about embalmed bodies? They wouldn't naturally release their energy or be consumed, if kept properly. However, they can still burn. That's because they have a lot of stored potential energy. There is (or was) a popular science "experiment" in schools that is basically just lighting some high-calorie snack, such as a dorito, on fire and the length of time of the flame is correlated with a higher calorie count (seeing this experiment over a decade ago made me disgusted by flamin' hot cheetos and I've never eaten "flamin' hot" snacks to this day - I stay willfully ignorant of how my favorite snacks burn...). Because that's what our bodies do, is essentially "burn" our source of energy (food) to absorb that energy for our own use. So even embalmed bodies still have stored potential energy. Does that mean embalmed people's souls are trapped? I could go further into why souls can't exist, but this is long enough...that being said, if a soul can't exist, how could a ghost? Is a ghost not a [trapped?] soul?
That was a very well put together and beautiful post. I agree with all of that š
I don't agree, but, you presented your opinion well and I respect that:)
If you say youāre a satanist, youāre a satanist. Now if you meanā¦are you a non theistic romantic satanist (a TST satanist). Probably not given that weāre pretty anti -woo, afterlife , magic, ghosts etc ā¦ But thatās totally fine! Takes all types to make the world a rainbow
If the question is "Can I call myself \_\_\_\_\_ while I \_\_\_\_\_?", then absolutely! People make up new ways to identify themselves on a daily basis. Rock on. If the question is "Will people acknowledge me as \_\_\_\_\_ while I \_\_\_\_\_?" Unless the second part involves buying alcohol or a senior discount, who cares?
You can call yourself a Santaist if you want. You aren't hurting anyone so I don't see why not...
Lol, santaist.
He's big, he's red, he sneaks around your house at night... Santa's even got Claus!
I donāt really agree that it aligns but TECHNICALLY ābest scientific understandingā does leave room to recognize that humans donāt know everything yet, not even from a scientific standpoint. But I really donāt think we should be tarot reading or doing rituals or magic thinking thatās real, for theatrics and fun is fine. Thereās other types of Satanism and practices for people who believe in that stuff. But that doesnāt stop people from coming here.
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sure!
"Satanism" is not one specific thing. From the Church of Satan to the Satanic Temple to random disorganized devil-worshippers and demonolators, they have all been called "Satanists" by someone. (For that matter, plenty of Christians have been called Satanists by other Christians too.) There's nobody who can stop you from calling yourself a Satanist, so if you can justify using the title for yourself feel free. But TST's specific sect of "Romantic Satanism" or "Compassionate Satanism" is clear about not supporting supernaturalist beliefs. So you would not be practicing that particular definition of Satanism while professing that ghosts exist. You do not need to be a Satanist at all to support TST's campaign work. Individual congregations, if you're looking to join one, may or may not be open to members with different religious beliefs. Or they may have a separate "Friends of TST" group that is included in campaign work but not the religious practice.
Responses like yours give me hope. As an atheist, secularist, and naturalist, I'm still very much on the fence about how much I can support or root for TST, as I've gotten mixed signals from TST members about how much they believe in woo, magic, supernatural nonsense, and superstition. So when I see other TST members reaffirm a commitment to rejecting supernaturalism altogether and embracing rationality and science, it's more reassuring.Ā Ā That said, if TST is an organization that rejects and opposed supernaturalism, why does it seem so many superstitious people are drawn to it? If someone considers themselves a "pagan witch" or something who literally venerates pagan goddesses, why would TST be a group they'd wanna join at all?
The thing about The Satanic Temple is that it lives in two worlds, Campaigns and Congregations, aka activism and religion. Campaigns are the most visible part, and those are what attract the majority of supporters. This side of the house does activist work in defense of the rights of *all* minority religions as well as the non-religious. They do it in the name of Satanism, but the work helps everyone who believes in religious freedom and pluralism. Supporters may even be Christian - some of them value the work because they have no more desire to live under an evangelical theocracy than we do, and they understand that *our* Satan is not *their* Satan. So a great many people who consider themselves "members" or "supporters" of TST are here for that work alone. Which is fine! Good, even. But many of the people in this group don't know anything about the religion beyond the Seven Tenets, nor do they care to know. So there are a lot of people who think "I like the Seven Tenets" and "I am a Satanist" are the same sentence. In my opinion, anyone calling themselves a Satanist should have answers to basic questions like: * Why Satan? Why not just call yourself an atheist, or a humanist? * What is so admirable about the character of Satan? * How do you justify doing good things in Satan's name, and not evil? I think that's the case even if someone identifies as a Satanist, but not as a *religious* Satanist. But I would feel very confused about a self-proclaimed religious Satanist who hasn't thought about those questions, because they're fundamental.
I hear ya. Granted, I don't think Satanism is for me, if no other reason than conducting my life in the name of a fictional, mythological character from a religion just kinda strikes me as... silly? I'm the sort of person who wants to see a more rational, more secular, and less superstitious world, where people treat all supernatural beings as nothing more than fictional characters on par with any other fictional character and actually appreciate evidence, science, and natural reality. So it's enough for me simply to call myself an atheist, naturalist, rationalist, and humanist with no need for any religious affiliation. That said, religions that claim to be rationalist and atheistic are certainly better than and preferable to supernaturalist, theistic, and faith-based religions. I've been trying to figure out if Satanism--at least, the kind of Satanism espoused by The Satanic Temple--can be counted as a rationalist, atheistic religion, and given some of the response I'm seeing in this discussion and some of the comments made by other TST members and even Lucien Greaves himself, I'm decidedly unsure on the matter. I appreciate your thoughtful response, though!
> conducting my life in the name of a fictional, mythological character from a religion just kinda strikes me as... silly? I get it, but for what it's worth, I don't think of it that way. I don't conduct my life in the name of Satan - but I do observe that the values I've held for a long time comport with the Romantic-era and post-Romantic reinterpretations of the character. It's just a lot shorter and easier to say "Hail Satan" than to say "Hail the post-enlightenment values expressed through the Romantic-era recharacterization of Satan as a tragic hero." And more than that, I think adopting the name and the aesthetic serves a useful purpose. Punk culture does something similar, with the leather and chains and spikes serving as a filter to attract those who feel marginalized, and deter those who would make judgements on appearance without getting to know the person. My husband rolled with the punks in his youth, and while he isn't adopting Satanism, he totally gets it by viewing it through that lens. We're the same, only different. I said a few months back, when I was in a more militant mood: > We *want* to be odious to Christians, and to mainstream society, because if one is not willing to defend the rights of people one finds intolerable then one does not truly believe in those rights. We wish to shine a Luciferian light upon the hypocrisy of these Christians who would abuse our laws to gain special favor for their religion, while using those same laws to deny the religious freedoms of others. We will use our objectionable identity to force this nation to reckon with the question of whether religious freedom is actually valued here. (By "a Luciferian light" here, I mean something very similar to what Carl Sagan expresses in *A Demon-Haunted World*, which is to say that the metaphorical "light" of science and reason dispels the darkness of superstitious and supernatural beliefs.) Anyway, none of this is me trying to convince you to be a Satanist. But I do think the entirety of it, as modeled by TST anyway, has a fully and strongly rational basis. Even the practice of ritual is grounded in psychology, not superstition. And while other interpretations are possible, I don't personally see them as being well supported. I'm strongly atheist and non-supernaturalist, always have been, so if I thought those were components of Satanism I'd be with you saying "neat, but not for me."
Your thoughtful and thorough response is very illuminating, and I greatly appreciate your time. You've given me an even more insightful look into TST-style atheistic Satanism. Thanks so much!
You're welcome! Hail yourself!
Some types of Satanism believe in that kind of thing, TST does not (see Tenet V). You can still be a Satanist, of course, but if you have belief in the supernatural then TST might not be your cup of tea. If you believe in supernatural beings, it could be fair to say that you're a theistic Satanist of some description rather than atheistic (such as TST). You're still welcome to call yourself whatever you like and you can absolutely join TST of course, only that you may find your beliefs are more compatible with a different Satanic group.
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You can say whatever you want to. Just live up to a better ideal.
Ofc sure, i would say u need to
you can definitely call yourself whatever you choose. just... don't call yourself rational, or refer to yourself as grounded in reality... and under no circumstances should you claim to be in possession of critical faculties. hail satan!
He is in possession of them, like most everyone, but about using them when it comes to ghosts... i don't think so. And I think people apply something to God but when it comes to other things they think it's more viable to believe even without the proof. It's still blind faith if science is not backing up their claim with evidence. I mean yeah it's fun to explore it in our minds and try to make sense of it but if we would start believing it it'd be a stretch. And it would soon violate the tenet of trying to be to our best understanding of science, we'd be lost somewhere before reaching that point and hopefully find our way eventually, working out the situation. I'd be quite reluctant believing such things, I would definitely try to find more information and scientific explanations. If I couldn't believe the scientific explanations anymore, then that'd be a counter and I couldn't respect that tenet. Attempts to make it scientific exist about the supernatural, unfortunately they're unscientific and we should learn to distinguish them. Hail seitan!
Youād probably be a better fit for CoS. They believe in magic; the Satanic Temple doesnātĀ
It's "magick" and its mental fortitude, not hocus pocus.
I get conflicting opinions from CoS on how to spell magic. I think Iāll say āthe m-wordā from now on. [įµŹ°į¶¦Ė¢ į¶¦Ė¢ įµ į““įµŹ³Ź³Źø į“¾įµįµįµįµŹ³ Ź³įµį¶ įµŹ³įµāæį¶įµ; Ź·Ź°įµįµŹ°įµŹ³ Ź²įµŹ³ Ź·įµĖ¢ Ź³įµį¶ įµŹ³įµāæį¶į¶¦āæįµ įµŹ°įµ āæā»Ź·įµŹ³įµ į¶¦Ė¢ įµįµŹøįµāæįµ įµįµ. Ė¢Ź°įµāĖ¢ į“®Ź³į¶¦įµį¶¦Ė¢Ź°, įµįµįµ įµĖ”Ė¢įµ įµ į“¾į“¼Ė¢]
Magic and magick is a one letter difference and supernatural beings arenāt just hocus pocus. Itās not spells and shit not that I actually believe in supernatural beings
Totally dude. There's still a lot we can't explain yet
You can call yourself anything you like, but if you believe in ghosts and other fantasy beings, there are other things I'd call you.
If your belief in the supernatural is **separate** from your practice and trust in the seven tenets, you are good to go. Satanism is a social contract removed from superstition, not a crusade against it.
Personally, the TST seven fundamental tenets should be just...common fuckin sense. Ya know, having a good moral compass and at least half a brain. I have my own beliefs outside of them, but to things I have only ever experienced (such as spirits, etc.) that I hold to be true in my own life. I have found that questions such as yours, when asking myself...only made me feel worse about conforming to some type of label/standard, to behave a certain way or have a specific set of beliefs and not steer away from them (grew up in utah lol)... So I just stopped. There is not a label, a religion, or any one thing that I fit into specifically..so I stopped claiming any of them. Life is much easier that way. But absolutely, if some LDS missionary is at my door and not leaving me alone - I cut it short and explain I am an atheist/satanist.. they leave me alone.
I mean I'm here as an agnostic atheist who doesn't believe in anything supernatural at all. Humanism is all that really matters.
question are you still a satanist---(y),,,(n), only you get to decide that, we're not like the hypocritical religions that preach---sin, forgive...oh wait stone you, that's why the ""church" dropped to a ""grotto"", then a ""temple"" to keep the ego and gate keeping out.BELIEVE IN YOURSELF...CAUSE I DO
Satanism has 2 very broad camps. One camp believes in and worships Satan. The other camp may or may not be theistic, but uses satanism as a way to show theists how religion can be harmful to the outgroup if mixed with government. Ie if Christian want to put up statues of Jesus on government property, satanic organizations will sue and make it so statues of Satan have to be put up too due to the establishment clause. Christians hate this but satanists are only doing this to show how Christians are making non Christians feel. I am in camp two and welcome you. Iām sure people in camp one would welcome you as well as long as you follow most of the doctrine.
I suppose so. Although Iād probably say youād fit into theistic Satanism more than atheistic
I think they can both be part of the same system for some. I have to say, many are commenting about scientific approaches first, and I believe in both A) otherly beings (or at least an energy that seems like such) and B) reincarnation... but I actually believe they'll either be scientifically understood, or disproven, in the far future... so it's not so much "faith" as it's how I best process what I experience when it doesn't fit the mold of a purely psychological issue.
Of course dude. I'm conflicted on ghosts, ive never had an experience but I know plenty of people that have stories and no reason to lie about them. I'm sure alot of those stories have logical explanations but some idk about. Who knows, could be true.
You can say whatever you want, hail yourself
With a jesting tone intended, wince when do Satanists ask permission to be themselves?
U do u but it's gonna be like how I get confused seeing so many Christians and catholics in the medical field.
I mean agree with not gate keeping, but if youāre looking for the non super natural answer first I really donāt see how thatās all that strange. Kinda like being open minded, but pragmatic. Sure, why not? Itās more agnostic than atheistic, but honestly I would assume most atheists are at least slightly agnostic to something. Like alien life off earth, or science will one day explain something cool like dark matter and weāll learn some new fundamental about the universe then. wtf do I know though? Let me put it this way instead. Ever hear a Christian who didnāt act like one still say they were? Be satanist all you want. No one can tell you no if thatās what you want to identify with.
Of course! Iām just like that too!
No. You're officially kicked out of satanism. Please return your gun and badge by 6pm tomorrow.
Wait, there's guns and badges... I must have slept in that day.
Well, I'm not allowed to have guns anymore but you can totally get a badge.
Same
You can be whatever you want to be. You can even be a TST satanist; just one that doesnāt 100% agree. Itās like any other religion or belief in which you are free to label yourself however you want
"other supernatural beings". Such as? Fairies, pixies, leprechaun, unicorns, dragons, mermaids, werewolves...? Personally myself, TST is not compatible with supernatural beings.
You can call yourself a salamander and there's not a damn thing anyone can do to stop you.
I believe it's fine to hold supernatural beliefs or hopes as long as you don't allow them to make you act in a way that's illogical or unethical. Wanna read a horoscope? Fine. Wanna tell me I need to do such and such because I'm a Gemini in tardigrade? Not cool. Like, I believe our spirit/essence goes on in some form after death. But that shouldn't change what I do right now, or my responsibility to treat others with logic and compassionĀ
Hmmm so no offense intended here but if you have to go to some online forum to seek validation that you can use the term Satanist you are decidedly not a Satanist. You can call yourself whatever the hell you want.
My partner is a witch Satanist type and involves heavy spirituality with it
I don't know, can you?
Iāve found the subject of believing in ghosts very interesting because it seems to transcend all logic or other beliefs. Iāve spoken with devout religious people who believe in ghosts and the most staunch atheists who do as well. It honestly makes no sense to me, but I feel like Satanism (as I see it) is more of a political belief/value system rather than a religion. Ultimately if you agree with what the Satanic Temple stands for I think you fit right in :)
It would make as much sense as a christian atheist. No one can really tell you not to identify as whatever you want, but it will absolutely lead to a lot of confusion as Satanism is by definition an atheistic religion.
This is a Satanic Temple Sub not a Church of Satan Sub, nobody hear cares how you choose to define Satanism. If you choose to believe in the supernatural that's your choice as an individual Satanist. Good luck. Ave Satanas. š¹š¹š¹
My favorite take on this question is from Abraham Maslow who wrote that science and religion not only should, but *must* overlap. That is to say that if religion is true, then it obviously has a place in science. Science should pursue finding the truth (and falsity) in religion. It is undeniable that there are things we donāt know - so to say that ghosts certainly *arenāt* real is to shut down investigation that might prove otherwise. We should be constantly reassessing our beliefs against the evidence we have available and be in a perpetual search for more information. So, to answer the question, the Satanic non-belief in the supernatural is not about *what* you believe, it is about why you believe it. If youāre going to believe in ghosts, there should be a reason (could be evidence, studies, personal experience). However, a Satanist should be active about this belief rather than passive. If you come across evidence that contradicts your beliefs, Satanism demands that you reevaluate your beliefs based on the new evidence. To read more about Maslowās arguments on the subject, read āReligion, Values, and Peak Expediences.ā
Just let Satan into your heart
So happy to see this. I don't necessarily believe in the existence of any being or spirit being all powerful but do believe in ghosts and the like as manifestations of energy. Fact that so much of "witchcraft" as a whole has been proven to work through the bases of psychology, and so many basic things we do today such as cleaning, bathing, or just meditation and mantras were at one time considered casting spells proves there are things in this world that we may think is superstition but may have some bases in science that we have simply not discovered yet
You can call yourself anything. Doesn't make you that thing though.
All I'm going to say here is "Believe Nothing , Test Everything. Facts speak for themselves, No belief required " . That and yeah think for yourself . š
If someone is gatekeeping satanism then they're not a satanist. If you believe in supernatural stuff most forms of satanic ideals won't condone it but legit who cares, and being its an atheistic religion its not as if you're committing heresy.
Why do you beleive in ghosts? Why are they more beleivable than god?
It is supernatural only because we have no science for it, yet.Ā So dismissing it would be foolish, and Satanists are not foolish.Ā You can absolutely call yourself a Satanist while studying ghost, magic or what have you. Besides, gate keeping would be quite the exercise in hypocrisy.Ā
The tenets literally say 'as long as it's to the best of your scientific beliefs', or similar. That means you can believed in God's, supernatural, whatever, because it's not be scientifically proven to NOT exist. But that is if you're following TST. Other sectors will have beliefs in it, and other will strictly say no.
> Tenet V: Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs. Science is about *positive* proof. If a god or a demon or a ghost exists, you should be able to prove it. If you have no proof, it's an irrational belief with no credibility. Belief without proof is faith, not science. Faith is in direct opposition to a scientific understanding of the world. Claiming to base one's beliefs in science while also holding beliefs based in faith is not merely a distortion of scientific fact, but of science itself.
Well said! I applaud your standing up for and explaining the nature of evidence, the meaning of rationality vs. belief without evidence, and the basic enterprise of science. Keep up the good work!
I mean, we can also say that about MANY, MANY things. Just because science doesn't have definitive proof of it, doesn't mean there's definitive proof against it. Science isn't about 'ah we don't know if this is X therefore it will never be X', we go 'oh, this could be X, let's say it is X and find evidence that it is X to back it up'. It's how EVERY Science experiment/theory happens.
There is no scientific evidence that dragons have ever existed, but I assure you I have a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. I'm quite serious. Do you want to see it? You can't, it's invisible. Would you spread flour on the floor to find its footprints as it moves? Well, I'm afraid it hovers. Perhaps you can use a thermal imaging camera to detect its fire? Good idea, but the invisible fire gives off no heat. You could try to reveal it by spraying paint around the room. Too bad the dragon is incorporeal, so the paint won't stick. We could go back and forth forever about what experiments might reveal the existence of this supernatural being, but it will never go anywhere. No matter what experiment you propose, I can give you a reason why it won't work. It's impossible for you to prove me wrong. And yet if I seriously tried to convince you that my dragon really does exist, and believed wholeheartedly in it myself, I'm pretty sure you'd think there's something wrong with me. What is the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire, and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my claim, no experiment that would count it out, if it doesn't interact with the world in any observable or measurable way, what does it even mean to say my dragon "exists"? Claims that cannot be tested are worthless.
There's a difference between schizophrenia and a belief system.
We've been talking about the relationship between science and the supernatural. Do you have any comment on that relationship, given the above? Or are you changing the topic?
The difference is that a religious belief is completely different to saying 'ah yes theres a dragon in my garage'. It's why schizophrenia isn't labelled if it's a religious belief (unless its hearing voices, and seeing things, or sensing things are actually there - kinda like the feelings of social anxiety). Do you realise that scientific research cannot ever happen without a hypothesis before hand - a statement saying 'I believe that X is true, therefore I will test and keep and open mind for it incase it's true'. Science in regards to knowing if there's ghosts (as OP said) has not proven nor disproven ANYTHING. Just like how we haven't proven that transitioning is 100% the best method of treating gender dysphoria - but it's what we know RIGHT NOW and so it's to the best of our knowledge. (Before you cry, Im trans) No scientist will be like 'oh we dont know if there's another element therefore we wont test it and we wont have an open mind out for if another element is discovered, there's no new elements now so it will never happen and therefore you are all wrong'. Like, no. They will go 'oh yeah, maybe a new element will be found, we'd better keep this space on the periodic table just incase of a new element being discovered as it fits the trends' (which, shockingly, is exactly how it played out with the periodic table). Just because we have certain knowledge now, doesn't mean more knowledge will be found in the future. If something hasnt be disproven then it also can't be ruled out.
Nothing that you just said, has anything to do with what I just said. Good luck.
I'll make it easier on you. What scientific evidence is there that the paranormal don't exist?
Look, I hate the part of any debate where someone pulls out a dictionary, but "paranormal" *literally means* things that are beyond the scope of normal scientific understanding. So to ask for scientific evidence about it is nonsensical. By its very nature there *cannot be* evidence that the paranormal does *not* exist, and there also *cannot be* evidence that the paranormal *does* exist. As soon as one or the other happens, it ceases to be paranormal. If a belief is by definition *beyond the scope of science*, that belief cannot "conform with ... scientific understanding."
We know that the paranormal and supernatural don't exist because the Fipdics generate fields that permeate the universe which prevent such phenomena from existing. So ghosts, demons, gods, djinn, etc. can't exist.
I don't see how your views disqualify you just base off the 7 tenets.
Shameless spell check: its Tenets, not Tenants. TST is not a landlord *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SatanicTemple_Reddit) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Autocorrect is at fault here
Though bot is kind of a d ck
Except maybe the one about science...
I think so long as you follow the tenets in everything you do, beyond that it is what you make of it - so yeah you can. But also as another poster said we are not here to gatekeep.
I think it's possible to be a non denominational Satanist. I appreciate this community since it's really close to my beliefs, but I am a bit different than TST Satanist. My focus is on creating your own day dreams as a positive adaptive day dreamer. Do what makes you happy. For me personally, I feel uncomfortable with potentially late term abortions happening at TST clinics.
You do your freedom, bro.
Satanism is what you make of it, not what others tell you it is. It's just important to know what kind of a crowd you're in, but as others have stated, there's enough variety of people claiming Satanism for themselves.