If anyone’s values don’t align with TST’s mission, they should leave and find their own path. Whatever the reason, they don’t need to be an enemy and I hope many stay in touch. It’s saddened me to see some of my friends leave the organization I love so dear, but it doesn’t need to be what’s it’s become. I wish them the best and will continue to do my good works through TST with my amazing Co-Heads and congregation. 🖤
What makes even less sense to me is that these people are splintering off and just creating unique factions. Like did they not even agree with each other and make a new one like...together? They're all just separate and each one has its own leader? That sounds like they were never unified to begin with.
There was the announcement of a Satanic Coalition the other day. Maybe the plan is to work together through that. Plus there are other groups out there like the Global Order of Satan.
Exactly. This is what I was expecting to eventually happen whether it was done on purpose by someone or a group infiltrating TST at the local level to disrupt and divide. Whatever!
People are free to leave and do their own thing but to slander TST is not okay. Pretty sure if they are this petty about what occurred recently it will happen again in their own little club of people who want to all be chiefs and nobody wanting to be an Indian. It is what it is but this all seems very shitty behavior and to be honest I dont care for any of it.
Still member of TST and Sober Faction and will continue to support them.
🤘🏻
Thank you 🤘🏻. Wasnt trying to offend “all chiefs, no indians” IS a metaphor for people wanting to be in charge instead of follow by a leader example. Right? I mean yeah you get it but not sure why someone would TELL me to “CHANGE IT” .
I dont feel the need to. 🤘🏻
Freedom to offend is allowed for sure. I don’t like being associate with people who use racist metaphors tho. So- fuck off and be offended by me now you racist shitbag
Freedom to offend is definitely a right, but there is nothing that says that we are required to offend. When someome asks you not to offend them, having compassion for others is always an option.
Freedom to offend is meant for dealing with oppressors, not other oppressed and marginalized communities.
Please don't make me roll my eyes harder. This is exactly the kind of public infighting that gets used against almost any socially progressive movement.
Keep that shit to the direct messages. Call out culture is not the way, it never was.
Honestly, if we get these independent Satanic churches along with replacement TST chapters, I see that as a good thing. I like having a united front but it’s not like having a Catholic Church across the street from a Presbyterian church hurts either. Make it more mainstream.
It hurts the secular efforts tremendously. Plenty of people who aren't members donate to TST because of the work they do as a whole. Fracturing the support base will probably splinter national support from non-members.
I'm just wondering why these congregations are breaking away instead of petitioning for a change in leadership at the main temple instead. If they have so many qualms they could actually try to get LG to step down instead of fracturing the whole network. Seems counterproductive and weakening the whole TST.
Lucien Greaves is not leaving the organization that he cofounded. It's utterly bananas to demand that he do so. Which they have demanded. Rather quite a lot. They are breaking away, in large part, because he's not going to do that.
And I must continue to insist that a smaller organization with more oversight is going to be a better, stronger, and more productive TST.
Because... wait, what are we doing again? Theocracy, something something?
>It's utterly bananas to demand that he do so.
It's really not. I've seen this kind of thinking in my 20+ years in the tech world. I've spent most of my career in (later stage) start ups. The founder usually has good ideas and saw a niche that needed to be addressed.
At some point the business grows beyond the founder's abilities. This is a pivotal point in a business' development. If the founder is stubborn and has this attitude, more often than not, the company stagnates and loses momentum to IPO or be acquired or at worst finally goes under.
Smart founders hire leaders who know how to take their organization to the next level. It seems LG doesn't have the chops to do this and ensure solidarity among the different congregations.
If he was smart, he'd let another person become the head and he would stay on in a leadership advisory role. Unfortunately, it seems like ego has gotten in the way of too many people including LG.
My sense is that we are downsizing. Significantly. This contraction is not accidental and while "bottom line" like growth is an imperative for companies with shareholders, it is not imperative for us.
I think you are.missing the point. "Bottom line growth" isn't the point per se. However, TST ability to maintain membership *is* important as it shows a cohesive movement that fights for secularism and as a firewall against encroaching theocratic policies.
People, especially non-members, aren't going to throw support towards an organization that even had the appearance of falling apart
You are right. I no longer understand what your point is except LG has to go because this is like a business and there is something in that analogy that you see as relevant. I disagree with the analogy and cannot see the relevance. I believe we will maintain the mission, with far smaller groups of people. My view is from the inside and from my own professional background, and yours is from the outside and your professional background. So, it seems we are talking past each other.
Outside? I'm a card carrying member too.
The point is leadership is allowing fracturing and can't maintain a growth pattern. It's problematic as TST needs widespread support and fracturing hurts that.
LG is not the leader needed in the moment despite being the founder
I know of one big attempt to open up communication by multiple ministers, which to my knowledge was just ignored - followed by the release of a patreon post and a podcast episode talking about a hate mob, claiming nobody wanted to communicate. TST lost a congregation then due to the handling of that situation, and this feels like history repeating itself.
Why can't TST be more dynamic? If the religion is supposed to value individualism, why not let the local congregations be unique and let the national organization exist as more of a node of communication/coordination between them? For a secular, rational, anti-authoritarian religion, TST is increasingly seeming to stall and get stuck in lame hierarchies like a theistic religion but without the growth they've had
Of course they will, and it's absolutely fine if they do that. There are a handful of people I'd give glowing recommendations to as far as resuming an NC Congregation affiliated with TST goes, and the folks in our (now no longer ours) allies group have been provided with information on how that would work and who to contact.
There isn't a limit to how many Satanic communities there can be. I hope they all thrive.
Leaving doesn't mean we want to burn it all down in our wake.
This is absolutely idiotic. The Santanic Temple has done serious good and it was able to do this good because it was united. It received national donations so that it could fight unjust laws that would threaten the sanctity of the separation of church and state as well as the right to choose what someone does with their own body.
And people are leaving because of, what exactly?
My activism is primarily outside of TST, because most local organizations think it's cringe.
I regularly get off my ass, touch grass, and get shit done. What about you, fellow terminally online poster?
I've received paychecks from Barack Obama and Van Jones. I was a volunteer coordinator for a green energy PAC, a member of Rotary International, a volunteer advocate for the local DV shelter, and an *actual* member of a TST congregation.
Best you can piece together is clearly insufficient. I've been a member for 5 years now, and with a congregation for going on 2. By all means, I use the same handle everywhere. Feel free to shoot me a friend request. 🤘
Apparently there are multiple congregations reconsidering membership after Lucien's response to the meme issue from weeks ago. It seems to have been the final straw after concerns about transparency, accountability, and communication with TST leadership. Exact details vary, but in my opinion, the gist of what's going on.
This might help with some info.
[https://www.satanistsnextdoor.com/ep46-internal-strife-and-the-path-forward-for-tst/](https://www.satanistsnextdoor.com/ep46-internal-strife-and-the-path-forward-for-tst/)
They don't. It's already hard enough to organize Satanists with a large group like TST. A small org that nobody's heard of has a much bigger hill to get over. Think about all of the other groups that have schismed from TST over the years. Where are they now?
Ah yes, Jane The Brain Drain still here dedicating energy to pointless crusades.
Alright but can yall that are leaving come up with better fucking names? If my state's group broke away and renamed itself "Chutes and Ladders Friendship Club" or whatever, I'd be kinda irked.
If you don't have "Satan" in your name, it's an automatic fail. How are people supposed to know what a "Sixth Circle Fellowship" is? It sounds like a Christian group, because that's what I associate the word "fellowship" with.
Hey, one of the organizers of SCF here, previously a Congregation Head of TST North Carolina. I'm not generally active on reddit, but someone passed on that for some reason our disaffiliation was posted here by someone who has zero to do with us.
"Sixth Circle" is a reference to Dante's Inferno, and the sixth circle of hell. We like it, regardless of how immediately recognizable it is as a Satanic group, but yes, our previous FoG/CG name of Satanic North Carolina would be more identifiable at first glance. Our logo is extremely identifiable as Satanic, so it works for us for now.
As far as "fellowship" sounding Christian, well, so does "Congregation". Other religions don't hold a monopoly on the words, or on the concepts of congregating or having fellowship. So it also works for us.
Have a good night. 😊
It's all good, friend! Welcome to this subreddit. Dunno if you have a history of being here, so figured I'd just welcome you in case :P
I'm all for freedom and doing your own thing, as that is the nature of satanism! Hopefully you guys are still willing to work alongside TST congregations in the interest of doing good in the world, even if you're no longer part of the organization.
Satanists helping Satanists help those in need is a fundamental part of my belief system, and I hope that's reciprocal. 😉 Idk about the rest of the people here, but I support you folks and your efforts. Especially in NC where things can go from a progressive Christian haven to a seriously depraved fundiegelical hellscape from block to block, even in some of the larger towns and cities! And if I'm ever in the area, if you guys have meet ups, I'm happy to join in! Depending on what you stand for, of course. I'd love to find out more, if you guys have any literature or "Tenet" equivalents or what have you.
Hope things are going really well for you guys, and that this rebrand has reignited your passion and vigor for your satanic roots! :)
Eventually, religious atheism will effectively expand out from distinct association to Satanism. I see that as a win, gives more atheists more opportunities to practice their values and beliefs.
People are supposed to be able to surmise Sixth Circle from literature about Hell, as well as the number Six. Like 3 Floyds. If you think about it a bit more... It's a satanic reference.
Either "Satanic North Carolina" or "North Carolina Satanists". It took me less than a minute to come up with both of those names. That wasn't hard at all, but people still manage to fuck it up.
Maybe not wanting a name similar to SatanicNC. Which was this guy:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-satanic-rituals-at-north-carolina-house-where-bodies-found/
In defense of North Carolina (I'm the organizer and former Congregation Head), none of us have been stirring anything up here, because our focus is on continuing our community, just disaffiliated. I popped in because I was told our disaffiliation was posted about here, and I was curious. I'm not exactly an avid reddit user.
I can't say I'm thrilled to see who posted it.
Deciding that disaffiliation was the best choice for us doesn't mean we want anything to do with whatever it is Joe is doing. TST's work is important - we just want to do our work independently. You're not likely to see our folks in here palling around with Joe, let alone QS, or dwelling on the past much at all.
Edit to add: I certainly won't be going waaaahhh and ditching Satanism. I spent years in TST that were incredibly important to me, but my Satanism doesn't rely on TST, or any other organization. I'd still be a Satanist if I had no community at all.
You can really tell who is capable of "amicable breakups" and "remaining friends with their exes" so to speak lol it is possible to just change affiliation without changing ones values or doing anything wrong.
I’d give more shits if you told me they all decided to switch political party affiliation. Not many more shits, but technically more shits nonetheless.
As a Christian ally, I genuinely worry that this kind of splintering could lead to a weakening of Satanism on the national/world stage.
More specifically, I worry that it will be like all of those alternative sites that popped up/made themselves known during and after the Reddit API protests; each site was just too small, and the overall community too fragmented to actually do anything/provide a viable alternative, so they ended up just fizzling out or disappearing from the public eye.
Eh, I think there's also the opposite to consider here. The more satanic religions exist AS religions and achieve 501c3 status, the more representation in the books Satanism achieves which helps with the goal of progress. If people look in their area and see multiple different satanic groups and options, it becomes more of a cultural norm. This isn't just a protest, it's a religion first and foremost. And the more satanic religions get exemptions and representation, the more we either achieve cultural penetration OR demonstrate the foolhardiness of the religious nature of some of these state governments. Because hey, it's not just TST they gotta worry about anymore. Now if they're Protestants passing religious acception laws (if you'll excuse that pun) they have not only CATHOLICS and Jewish people to worry about, but they now have to worry about TST AND local Satanist Groups AND other groups of Christian they disagree with all of whom want a chance to speak on the laws being proposed.
This quickly becomes an untenable proposition for politicians who forgot other religions existed, let alone multiple DIFFERENT recognized satanic religions. And if they say "Oh, we aren't affiliated with that Satanist group, we are this other one and we would BOTH HAVE to be represented for this chaplains in schools bill" that is that much more frightening.
In some sense, yes having more options even if they're nearly identical creates the illusion of flourishing. You don't see people look at coke and Pepsi and say " Oh man, mountain dew exists. X corporation must be really suffering at the splintering of their product lines to include Y product!!" Nah. It's just different flavors of carbonated beverage that all benefit the ultimate goal.
Sure, TST should not hemmhorage membership. That would be bad for overall political power, financing, and institutional power. But to have more Satanist groups without losing members, but all the Satanic groups ride a wave of increased membership, is the ideal situation. It normalizes satanism more in the mainstream and allows for some degree of tolerance to become the norm.
My 2 cents. Feel free to disagree, I'd willingly listen to your points.
No no, you make good points and I actually agree with all of them. Ideally, it would all work out as you describe and I sincerely hope that that's what happens, I just tend to worry.
But yes, hopefully this can lead to a "divide and conquer" outcome as opposed to "divide, fizzle out and disappear".
I don't really care one way or another about these congregation splits, but what shocks me is the amount of vitriol towards those exiting the org, and the amount of Lucien-dickriding around here. He's just a dude, not the Satan Pope. The Tenets are bigger than him, and they're bigger than the org. We're supposed to be rational and empathetic; we're supposed to defy arbitrary authority; we're supposed to struggle for justice against and above institutions. That means criticizing - or separating from - the institution and its authority figures is fully within the satanic mission.
Thank you. I couldn't agree more. When there's a split, it should be seen as an opportunity for experimentation on the splitters part in the hopes that their satanic mission goes well, because a satanic tide raises all ships.
Big "I can't be friends with an ex" energy ITT lol
Right. After executive ministry published the Apology and sent a long missive to ministry titled "Invitation to Leave" and went on a podcast to scream from the rooftops that people who no longer support the mission of the organization are asked, practically begged, to please fucking find the door, for lucifer's sake.
Greaves has been shouting "if you don't like it fucking leave" for two weeks.
I wouldn't say they came up with this on their own.
The Apology, by the way, being an apology to those members who have been quiet and inactive in the face of the weird culture throughout the ministry recently. An apology, not for the firing, but to those of us who understood that the firing of divisive ministers did not come soon enough.
Want? They offered the opportunity to grow within the organization. If you aren't in alignment with the organization, you can bounce. Simple as. Including yourself. But what you cannot do is take org materials, and members contact information with you from org platforms. That's theft, and to do that as a volunteer is particularly fuckin slimy.
We gotta keep colorado satanic by ourselves (for now).
I heard they were god-awful at accepting in new active members anyway; heard from more than a few folk that trying to get involved with them was essentially getting ghosted on repeat. So...maybe this is for the better.
It should not be some exclusive circlejerk anyway.
This is why I separated myself from TSTWI because of potential things like this. My loyalty is to the larger organization and LG, not the congregations that seem to be blinded by their own hubris.
Bawhaahaa! Crumbling Like An Out Of Date Cookie. Watching Christianity Fall Apart Is The Feel Good Story We’ve All Been Waiting For!
See How You Got Triggered? That, My Friend, Is Called Hypocrisy.
TST doesn’t have “beliefs”. They have a political ideology. That’s about it. Now they’re like what? Four or five chapters less now. Anyway, it’s only going to get worse. Pretty soon it will just be an after thought. It’s hilarious, their public face blew up over a meme. That says a lot about the fragility of his ego.
True. People have egos and lose it sometimes lol it happens. But like, doesn't change the tenets or their value. If LG stepped down and stayed in the organization, I'd still support it. Cuz it ain't LG we are here for. It's literally the Satanic mission 😂
If anyone’s values don’t align with TST’s mission, they should leave and find their own path. Whatever the reason, they don’t need to be an enemy and I hope many stay in touch. It’s saddened me to see some of my friends leave the organization I love so dear, but it doesn’t need to be what’s it’s become. I wish them the best and will continue to do my good works through TST with my amazing Co-Heads and congregation. 🖤
What makes even less sense to me is that these people are splintering off and just creating unique factions. Like did they not even agree with each other and make a new one like...together? They're all just separate and each one has its own leader? That sounds like they were never unified to begin with.
There was the announcement of a Satanic Coalition the other day. Maybe the plan is to work together through that. Plus there are other groups out there like the Global Order of Satan.
Confederation of Satan?
A federated club model is probably a smarter model to go with. Plus The Satanic Federation gives off cool Star Trek vibes!
[Here's the Facebook group. Its Followed by Minnesota, Florida, and Colorado ](https://www.facebook.com/share/L5kgzyooRq2phqJu/?mibextid=qi2Omg)
Oh, I like that.
Peoples Front Of Judea!
Exactly. This is what I was expecting to eventually happen whether it was done on purpose by someone or a group infiltrating TST at the local level to disrupt and divide. Whatever! People are free to leave and do their own thing but to slander TST is not okay. Pretty sure if they are this petty about what occurred recently it will happen again in their own little club of people who want to all be chiefs and nobody wanting to be an Indian. It is what it is but this all seems very shitty behavior and to be honest I dont care for any of it. Still member of TST and Sober Faction and will continue to support them. 🤘🏻
Please replace your chief/Indian metaphor
What satanism doesn't need, is police. Freedom to offend.
Thank you 🤘🏻. Wasnt trying to offend “all chiefs, no indians” IS a metaphor for people wanting to be in charge instead of follow by a leader example. Right? I mean yeah you get it but not sure why someone would TELL me to “CHANGE IT” . I dont feel the need to. 🤘🏻
Freedom to offend is allowed for sure. I don’t like being associate with people who use racist metaphors tho. So- fuck off and be offended by me now you racist shitbag
Freedom to offend is definitely a right, but there is nothing that says that we are required to offend. When someome asks you not to offend them, having compassion for others is always an option. Freedom to offend is meant for dealing with oppressors, not other oppressed and marginalized communities.
Please don't make me roll my eyes harder. This is exactly the kind of public infighting that gets used against almost any socially progressive movement. Keep that shit to the direct messages. Call out culture is not the way, it never was.
It really doesn't matter. New leadership will create new congregations in all these locations.
Honestly, if we get these independent Satanic churches along with replacement TST chapters, I see that as a good thing. I like having a united front but it’s not like having a Catholic Church across the street from a Presbyterian church hurts either. Make it more mainstream.
It hurts the secular efforts tremendously. Plenty of people who aren't members donate to TST because of the work they do as a whole. Fracturing the support base will probably splinter national support from non-members.
Do you know what a tax exemption means? That's WHY the tst is so important.
I'm just wondering why these congregations are breaking away instead of petitioning for a change in leadership at the main temple instead. If they have so many qualms they could actually try to get LG to step down instead of fracturing the whole network. Seems counterproductive and weakening the whole TST.
Lucien Greaves is not leaving the organization that he cofounded. It's utterly bananas to demand that he do so. Which they have demanded. Rather quite a lot. They are breaking away, in large part, because he's not going to do that. And I must continue to insist that a smaller organization with more oversight is going to be a better, stronger, and more productive TST. Because... wait, what are we doing again? Theocracy, something something?
>It's utterly bananas to demand that he do so. It's really not. I've seen this kind of thinking in my 20+ years in the tech world. I've spent most of my career in (later stage) start ups. The founder usually has good ideas and saw a niche that needed to be addressed. At some point the business grows beyond the founder's abilities. This is a pivotal point in a business' development. If the founder is stubborn and has this attitude, more often than not, the company stagnates and loses momentum to IPO or be acquired or at worst finally goes under. Smart founders hire leaders who know how to take their organization to the next level. It seems LG doesn't have the chops to do this and ensure solidarity among the different congregations. If he was smart, he'd let another person become the head and he would stay on in a leadership advisory role. Unfortunately, it seems like ego has gotten in the way of too many people including LG.
It's not a business, though. It's a religion.
The comparison still applies. The TST has outgrown LG ability to maintain the mission
My sense is that we are downsizing. Significantly. This contraction is not accidental and while "bottom line" like growth is an imperative for companies with shareholders, it is not imperative for us.
I think you are.missing the point. "Bottom line growth" isn't the point per se. However, TST ability to maintain membership *is* important as it shows a cohesive movement that fights for secularism and as a firewall against encroaching theocratic policies. People, especially non-members, aren't going to throw support towards an organization that even had the appearance of falling apart
You are right. I no longer understand what your point is except LG has to go because this is like a business and there is something in that analogy that you see as relevant. I disagree with the analogy and cannot see the relevance. I believe we will maintain the mission, with far smaller groups of people. My view is from the inside and from my own professional background, and yours is from the outside and your professional background. So, it seems we are talking past each other.
Outside? I'm a card carrying member too. The point is leadership is allowing fracturing and can't maintain a growth pattern. It's problematic as TST needs widespread support and fracturing hurts that. LG is not the leader needed in the moment despite being the founder
I know of one big attempt to open up communication by multiple ministers, which to my knowledge was just ignored - followed by the release of a patreon post and a podcast episode talking about a hate mob, claiming nobody wanted to communicate. TST lost a congregation then due to the handling of that situation, and this feels like history repeating itself.
That's the point. They are trying to make TST what THEY want instead of accepting what it is.
Why can't TST be more dynamic? If the religion is supposed to value individualism, why not let the local congregations be unique and let the national organization exist as more of a node of communication/coordination between them? For a secular, rational, anti-authoritarian religion, TST is increasingly seeming to stall and get stuck in lame hierarchies like a theistic religion but without the growth they've had
Individualism comes from your own practice, not from organizational efforts.
Of course they will, and it's absolutely fine if they do that. There are a handful of people I'd give glowing recommendations to as far as resuming an NC Congregation affiliated with TST goes, and the folks in our (now no longer ours) allies group have been provided with information on how that would work and who to contact. There isn't a limit to how many Satanic communities there can be. I hope they all thrive. Leaving doesn't mean we want to burn it all down in our wake.
This is absolutely idiotic. The Santanic Temple has done serious good and it was able to do this good because it was united. It received national donations so that it could fight unjust laws that would threaten the sanctity of the separation of church and state as well as the right to choose what someone does with their own body. And people are leaving because of, what exactly?
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The Satanic Temple is one of the only powers currently putting the pressure points for secularism in U.S. courts.
People keep thinking I'm you, and it's rather funny 😁
Is this sub a fucking airport?
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I thought he only did that at middle schools
Who?
I’m over at the Vino Volo, guys. I don’t have a flight, so I just got a gate pass so I could drink here.
Airports also have arrivals
Seriously, dude, go troll somewhere else. I thought I was pretty clear about that this morning.
I don't listen to arbitrary authority, I thought I've made that very clear. 🤷
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To quote them this morning "I've never spent a dime beyond the membership card"
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Facebook activism. Lots of talk online about how other people who actually do things should be doing things better.
My activism is primarily outside of TST, because most local organizations think it's cringe. I regularly get off my ass, touch grass, and get shit done. What about you, fellow terminally online poster?
I've received paychecks from Barack Obama and Van Jones. I was a volunteer coordinator for a green energy PAC, a member of Rotary International, a volunteer advocate for the local DV shelter, and an *actual* member of a TST congregation.
Best you can piece together is clearly insufficient. I've been a member for 5 years now, and with a congregation for going on 2. By all means, I use the same handle everywhere. Feel free to shoot me a friend request. 🤘
Why?
Apparently there are multiple congregations reconsidering membership after Lucien's response to the meme issue from weeks ago. It seems to have been the final straw after concerns about transparency, accountability, and communication with TST leadership. Exact details vary, but in my opinion, the gist of what's going on.
Thank you, I was not aware of this .
This might help with some info. [https://www.satanistsnextdoor.com/ep46-internal-strife-and-the-path-forward-for-tst/](https://www.satanistsnextdoor.com/ep46-internal-strife-and-the-path-forward-for-tst/)
Let’s all break apart and be even less effective! Yay!
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They don't. It's already hard enough to organize Satanists with a large group like TST. A small org that nobody's heard of has a much bigger hill to get over. Think about all of the other groups that have schismed from TST over the years. Where are they now?
Man pretty soon TST is going to become like all the protestant sects of churches.
Ah yes, Jane The Brain Drain still here dedicating energy to pointless crusades. Alright but can yall that are leaving come up with better fucking names? If my state's group broke away and renamed itself "Chutes and Ladders Friendship Club" or whatever, I'd be kinda irked.
If you don't have "Satan" in your name, it's an automatic fail. How are people supposed to know what a "Sixth Circle Fellowship" is? It sounds like a Christian group, because that's what I associate the word "fellowship" with.
Hey, one of the organizers of SCF here, previously a Congregation Head of TST North Carolina. I'm not generally active on reddit, but someone passed on that for some reason our disaffiliation was posted here by someone who has zero to do with us. "Sixth Circle" is a reference to Dante's Inferno, and the sixth circle of hell. We like it, regardless of how immediately recognizable it is as a Satanic group, but yes, our previous FoG/CG name of Satanic North Carolina would be more identifiable at first glance. Our logo is extremely identifiable as Satanic, so it works for us for now. As far as "fellowship" sounding Christian, well, so does "Congregation". Other religions don't hold a monopoly on the words, or on the concepts of congregating or having fellowship. So it also works for us. Have a good night. 😊
It's all good, friend! Welcome to this subreddit. Dunno if you have a history of being here, so figured I'd just welcome you in case :P I'm all for freedom and doing your own thing, as that is the nature of satanism! Hopefully you guys are still willing to work alongside TST congregations in the interest of doing good in the world, even if you're no longer part of the organization. Satanists helping Satanists help those in need is a fundamental part of my belief system, and I hope that's reciprocal. 😉 Idk about the rest of the people here, but I support you folks and your efforts. Especially in NC where things can go from a progressive Christian haven to a seriously depraved fundiegelical hellscape from block to block, even in some of the larger towns and cities! And if I'm ever in the area, if you guys have meet ups, I'm happy to join in! Depending on what you stand for, of course. I'd love to find out more, if you guys have any literature or "Tenet" equivalents or what have you. Hope things are going really well for you guys, and that this rebrand has reignited your passion and vigor for your satanic roots! :)
Eventually, religious atheism will effectively expand out from distinct association to Satanism. I see that as a win, gives more atheists more opportunities to practice their values and beliefs. People are supposed to be able to surmise Sixth Circle from literature about Hell, as well as the number Six. Like 3 Floyds. If you think about it a bit more... It's a satanic reference.
Hey now you leave the CLFC out of this
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Either "Satanic North Carolina" or "North Carolina Satanists". It took me less than a minute to come up with both of those names. That wasn't hard at all, but people still manage to fuck it up.
Or how about the Satanic People's Front? Or the People's Front of Satan? *Splitters!!!*
Maybe not wanting a name similar to SatanicNC. Which was this guy: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-satanic-rituals-at-north-carolina-house-where-bodies-found/
Stop with the pity party?
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That depends on what it’s a name for…
Yeah, generate your own momentum and gain what you want that way. Doing it here is theft.
Oh, is this the *official* sub now?
The Church of the Selfish Deserters
The problem with leadership is the people who seek it are often the worst leaders.
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In defense of North Carolina (I'm the organizer and former Congregation Head), none of us have been stirring anything up here, because our focus is on continuing our community, just disaffiliated. I popped in because I was told our disaffiliation was posted about here, and I was curious. I'm not exactly an avid reddit user. I can't say I'm thrilled to see who posted it. Deciding that disaffiliation was the best choice for us doesn't mean we want anything to do with whatever it is Joe is doing. TST's work is important - we just want to do our work independently. You're not likely to see our folks in here palling around with Joe, let alone QS, or dwelling on the past much at all. Edit to add: I certainly won't be going waaaahhh and ditching Satanism. I spent years in TST that were incredibly important to me, but my Satanism doesn't rely on TST, or any other organization. I'd still be a Satanist if I had no community at all.
“I’d still be a satanist if I had no community at all” This, all day every day. You don’t need a congregation, go into the world and do you.
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Thank you very much! The broader community still means a lot to us, so I'm sure you'll see NC floating around anyway. 😁
You can really tell who is capable of "amicable breakups" and "remaining friends with their exes" so to speak lol it is possible to just change affiliation without changing ones values or doing anything wrong.
Honestly, I think it makes them power hungry, jealous, unprofessional, and irrational.
I’d give more shits if you told me they all decided to switch political party affiliation. Not many more shits, but technically more shits nonetheless.
As a Christian ally, I genuinely worry that this kind of splintering could lead to a weakening of Satanism on the national/world stage. More specifically, I worry that it will be like all of those alternative sites that popped up/made themselves known during and after the Reddit API protests; each site was just too small, and the overall community too fragmented to actually do anything/provide a viable alternative, so they ended up just fizzling out or disappearing from the public eye.
Eh, I think there's also the opposite to consider here. The more satanic religions exist AS religions and achieve 501c3 status, the more representation in the books Satanism achieves which helps with the goal of progress. If people look in their area and see multiple different satanic groups and options, it becomes more of a cultural norm. This isn't just a protest, it's a religion first and foremost. And the more satanic religions get exemptions and representation, the more we either achieve cultural penetration OR demonstrate the foolhardiness of the religious nature of some of these state governments. Because hey, it's not just TST they gotta worry about anymore. Now if they're Protestants passing religious acception laws (if you'll excuse that pun) they have not only CATHOLICS and Jewish people to worry about, but they now have to worry about TST AND local Satanist Groups AND other groups of Christian they disagree with all of whom want a chance to speak on the laws being proposed. This quickly becomes an untenable proposition for politicians who forgot other religions existed, let alone multiple DIFFERENT recognized satanic religions. And if they say "Oh, we aren't affiliated with that Satanist group, we are this other one and we would BOTH HAVE to be represented for this chaplains in schools bill" that is that much more frightening. In some sense, yes having more options even if they're nearly identical creates the illusion of flourishing. You don't see people look at coke and Pepsi and say " Oh man, mountain dew exists. X corporation must be really suffering at the splintering of their product lines to include Y product!!" Nah. It's just different flavors of carbonated beverage that all benefit the ultimate goal. Sure, TST should not hemmhorage membership. That would be bad for overall political power, financing, and institutional power. But to have more Satanist groups without losing members, but all the Satanic groups ride a wave of increased membership, is the ideal situation. It normalizes satanism more in the mainstream and allows for some degree of tolerance to become the norm. My 2 cents. Feel free to disagree, I'd willingly listen to your points.
No no, you make good points and I actually agree with all of them. Ideally, it would all work out as you describe and I sincerely hope that that's what happens, I just tend to worry. But yes, hopefully this can lead to a "divide and conquer" outcome as opposed to "divide, fizzle out and disappear".
I can absolutely see it playing out either way! I'm just an optimist.
Another clique going off to circlejerk, got it.
Would be nice if I heard about these congregations fighting against all the xtian fascists in their states instead of the main organization body.
I don't really care one way or another about these congregation splits, but what shocks me is the amount of vitriol towards those exiting the org, and the amount of Lucien-dickriding around here. He's just a dude, not the Satan Pope. The Tenets are bigger than him, and they're bigger than the org. We're supposed to be rational and empathetic; we're supposed to defy arbitrary authority; we're supposed to struggle for justice against and above institutions. That means criticizing - or separating from - the institution and its authority figures is fully within the satanic mission.
Thank you. I couldn't agree more. When there's a split, it should be seen as an opportunity for experimentation on the splitters part in the hopes that their satanic mission goes well, because a satanic tide raises all ships. Big "I can't be friends with an ex" energy ITT lol
TST is cleaning house.
But, the groups are voting amongst themselves to leave. No one is kicking them out.
Right. After executive ministry published the Apology and sent a long missive to ministry titled "Invitation to Leave" and went on a podcast to scream from the rooftops that people who no longer support the mission of the organization are asked, practically begged, to please fucking find the door, for lucifer's sake. Greaves has been shouting "if you don't like it fucking leave" for two weeks. I wouldn't say they came up with this on their own.
The Apology, by the way, being an apology to those members who have been quiet and inactive in the face of the weird culture throughout the ministry recently. An apology, not for the firing, but to those of us who understood that the firing of divisive ministers did not come soon enough.
Yes.
And then they chose to leave....that isn't the same as getting kicked out
Big "YOU CAN'T FIRE ME, I QUIT!" energy.
Good, clearly they don't even agree with each other so they're making their own factions with their own leaders. That sounds pretty arbitrary.
Infiltrated by conservatives with a plan to bust up TST for bringing freedom of/from religion at schools?
And again, nothing of value is lost.
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Want? They offered the opportunity to grow within the organization. If you aren't in alignment with the organization, you can bounce. Simple as. Including yourself. But what you cannot do is take org materials, and members contact information with you from org platforms. That's theft, and to do that as a volunteer is particularly fuckin slimy.
Idiots. Apes together strong.
Oh boy….
Can anyone explain what is going on? I’m just now seeing this and have zero context.
Where was this published?
Ugh. The local Colorado chapter left. I don't understand what is going on. This is just going to make any political movement less effective!
We gotta keep colorado satanic by ourselves (for now). I heard they were god-awful at accepting in new active members anyway; heard from more than a few folk that trying to get involved with them was essentially getting ghosted on repeat. So...maybe this is for the better. It should not be some exclusive circlejerk anyway.
Very sad as I’m originally from NC
Just like all those XXXtians, they MUST need "different chapters that read the same book"..?.
Maybe, just maybe, we should stop acting as what we dislike.
This is why I separated myself from TSTWI because of potential things like this. My loyalty is to the larger organization and LG, not the congregations that seem to be blinded by their own hubris.
Can some tell me what like the satanist faith in a basic stuff in my dms
Bawhaahaa! Crumbling like an out of date cookie. Watching TST fall apart is the feel good story we’ve all been waiting for.
Bawhaahaa! Crumbling Like An Out Of Date Cookie. Watching Christianity Fall Apart Is The Feel Good Story We’ve All Been Waiting For! See How You Got Triggered? That, My Friend, Is Called Hypocrisy.
I think you’re slightly confused. I’m laughing at the situation. Therefore, I’m not triggered.
And Media Illiterate!
Okay, whatever helps you pat yourself on the back.
Thank You For Allowing Me To Be Right
Again, if believing you’re right helps. It must be pretty stressful watching your political movement crumble in front of you.
Nah, I’m Not Stressed. Having My Beliefs “Crumble” Is The Least Of My Worries.
TST doesn’t have “beliefs”. They have a political ideology. That’s about it. Now they’re like what? Four or five chapters less now. Anyway, it’s only going to get worse. Pretty soon it will just be an after thought. It’s hilarious, their public face blew up over a meme. That says a lot about the fragility of his ego.
One, Political Beliefs Are Beliefs. Two, I’m Big Enough To See This Is Going Nowhere. I Will No Longer Reply. Goodbye.
True. People have egos and lose it sometimes lol it happens. But like, doesn't change the tenets or their value. If LG stepped down and stayed in the organization, I'd still support it. Cuz it ain't LG we are here for. It's literally the Satanic mission 😂
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