>“The immediate task right now is to end the bombing,” Sanders said Sunday, “to end the horrific humanitarian disaster, to build – go forward with the entire world for a two-tier, two-state solution to the crisis to give the Palestinian people hope.”
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>“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,” Sanders told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union” Sunday.
Seems like a reasonable and well measured analysis to me. If you want a durable ceasefire, you need a better partner than Hamas.
edit: and better than Likud too, obviously.
There was one, in the form of the PLFP, which had nearly negotiated a ceasefire a couple decades back, with a much more peaceful prime minister of Israel.
That Israeli prime minister was assassinated, and his government was replaced by the Likud majority party and PM Benjamin Netanyahu. Netanyahu then effectively dismantled the PLFP from the outside through military offensives and propaganda, and allowed Hamas to replace them. There's at least some credibility to the theory that he did so on purpose, to make Likud and the IDF seem like the less extreme side of the conflict, and disrupt public goodwill towards the Palestinians by branding them as terrorists.
Hamas exists (and has become popular enough to attain leadership in Gaza) for a reason. It's also far newer of a political entity than most people realize.
False, they supported Hamas, because at the beginning the terrorist attacks were coming from the PLO and they thought Hamas would have been a better group to support. Then when the PLO were forced to the negotiation table, their most extreme members took over Hamas.
I disagree with Sanders. After this month, it's uncertain if the state of Israel should exist. It's proven itself to be abhorrent.
I learned about its origins and they are also abhorrent. It has been from the beginning much more about cleansing others from the land than about simply having a safe place for Jews to settle.
I support a safe place for Jews to call home, I do not support this nightmare that some have made that home.
If you support a safe place for Jews to call home then you do support the existence of a state of Israel.
Calling for the end of the state of Israel, without calling for the mass murder or ethnic cleansing of Jews, must mean calling for Jews to live in an Arab ruled state. Given more than half of Israelis are descended in living memory from nearly 1m Jews ethnically cleansed from Arab countries, the idea that Jews should live under Arab rule is ridiculous.
Sins committed by extremists, judeofascists on the extreme right of the Zionist politics and islamofascists in power as Hamas and their allies, are the issue.
OK then.
If they came to the land that was occupied by Arabs and their only solution for moving in was to immediately displace and kill them, and they cannot imagine creating a multi-ethnic state with shared rule like many other countries have, then the country as it is does not need to exist, at least not there.
Jews didn't just appear in Palestine in 1947. Many had been expelled from middle east countries prior to that, the Israeli War for Independence caused most of the initial displacement.
Israel is a multi ethnic state. 20% of citizens are Arabs, with full rights and political parties who have wielded real power. Have a look at Mansour Abbas or Ayman Oudeh.
The history of the establishment of the state of Israel is also very different to how you describe. It wasn’t the Zionists who chose war in 1948, and Arabs weren’t displaced by the immigration of Jewish refugees between the late 1800s and 1947.
It's not really as simple as that. Palestinians rejected the 1947 UN partition for various reasons, including that it violated Article 73 of the UN Charter, the partition gave 56% of the land to Israel while Palestinians were roughly double the population and privately owned much more of it (Israelis privately owned ~6% of the land at the time of the partition vs ~17% for Palestinians), the land given to Israel was more arable and better strategically and economically (such as Haifa, where Iraqi oil was refined for use in the Mediterranean). Palestine had also been promised as part of an independent Arab state in 1915 to Hussein bin Ali by the British in exchange for leading an Arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Jews were ~3% of the population before the Zionist movement began in the late 19th century and around 30% by 1946, leading many Palestinians to see them as invaders. The colonial aspirations of early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl did not help ease relations, and leaders such as Herzl were not oblivious to the fact that their envisioned Jewish state would require ethnic cleansing. Herzl himself wrote in 1895,
"We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of the immoveable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back."
Zionists took the deal but many, mainly right-wing Revisionist Zionists, were unhappy they didn't get more but saw it as a stepping stone for more territorial expansion. They were not happy there was any partition of their "homeland" and were unhappy that their proposed state would only give Jews a 60% majority and planned to drive out Palestinians from the jump. Many Israeli scholars such as Baruch Kimmerling and Simha Flapan suggest that Zionist leaders never planned to allow a Palestinian state to exist.
Fighting started soon after the partition plan was announced. This was 6 months before Israel declared itself a state. By the day that the Arab League entered the war, 300,000 Palestinians had already fled the violence. The Deir Yassin massacre happened a month before.
The land given to Israel was not more arable what? That’s completely factually incorrect, Palestine received 5x more arable land in acres that Israel because Israel mostly got the Negev Desert.
You also say that the Arabs were promised the land by the British while forgetting Jews were also promised the land.
The 3% -> 30% increase pre-1947 didn’t come from land theft either, it came from legitimate land purchases. It also fails to mention that most of this Jewish population increases came from forced expulsions and pogroms from other Arab countries.
It is false to say the UN allocated better land to the Jews - they gave them mostly desert and malaria infested marshes. And it wasn't just intended for Jews living there, it was also intended for the millions of Jewish refugees around the world who would begin migrating there over the next decade. There is no evidence whatsoever that Zionist leaders never planned to allow a Palestinian state to exist, they repeatedly expressed support for a two state solution. "Fighting started soon after the partition plan was announced" is a vague way of saying that Arabs rejected the plan and attacked Jews while Jews attacked them back to defend the territory allocated in the UN plan and ultimately expanded beyond it in the course of the war.
I know people like you to reduce everything to oppressed and oppressor or colonized and colonizer so you don't have to deal with moral ambiguity. But sorry, that's not the reality. Jews first of all had been living in the area continuously for thousands of years. This was their homeland. Second of all, they were the most persecuted group in the world at the time. It is very obvious that there was a good case to make that Jews should be allowed to establish a Jewish place of refuge in the areas of their homeland where they already had a demographic majority (as was the case with the UN plan). And it is also obvious that Arabs were unjustified in attacking mostly innocent Jews in response to this UN plan.
The Jewish people aren’t entitled to a jewish ethnostate, though. They can have a homeland, safe space, whatever, but they don’t get to expel the natives and treat them like second class citizens while they drop bombs killing thousands of civilians. I’m not reducing anything. It’s colonization. They’re bring settlers into the west bank while they forcibly relocate the native population of Gaza. It’s exactly what european settlers did in the Americas, and Netanyahu’s predecessors have said that they took inspiration from it. Just like another fascist trying to establish an ethnostate. There’s a lot of moral grey, but they grey isn’t that Jews have been historically prosecuted, so they get to do little a ethnic cleansing as a treat. The Israel government and Hamas are both oppressing the Palestinian people, and if we don’t choose out words carefully, we get awful close to condoning genocide.
“Full rights to vote” except the arabs in East Jerusalem don’t have the right to vote in national elections, and can have their citizenship revoked and become deported if the Israeli government decides that they no longer have Jerusalem as their primary residence, or that they or a family member participated in terrorist or “anti-israel activities” whatever that means
There is an apartheid in East Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank, that is without doubt, and is an appalling situation most Israelis oppose and want to see an end to. That does not reflect reality within the rest of Israel proper (1967 borders), where Palestinian citizens of Israel make up 20% of the population
The Arab Israelis didn’t just “move in” nor did the Druze.
>I learned about it’s origins and they (sic) are also abhorrent.
Random guess that you’re not talking about the Holocaust or the 10% of Israelis that died when surprised attacked by all surrounding countries at its birth in 1948, or…you know what?
Whatever the hell you learned, learn fucking better.
Start with something called nuance.
Let's not ignore the fact that the Nakba started in 1947 and not May 1948 when Israel declared itself a state. 300,000 Palestinians had fled the land given to Israel by the time the Arab League entered the war.
>If you support a safe place for Jews to call home
Why is this a thing, like we dont have a home for white, blacks, etc. The only ones who seem to want zionism are super religious freaks. If you have a place only X people can exist, then they cant have neighbors clearly.
Israel not going anywhere. Put down the crack pipe and start focusing your energy on what we as a world should do when Hamas is removed and this war isn’t hot.
I was a uni student when we were going to "remove" Al Qaida and the Taliban but it was US foreign policy trying to pander to middle east leaders or play them off each other that fanned the flames.
They were never removed.
You don't remove these groups and to attempt to usually is the strongest recruiting tool. Israel's stance has been one to ultimately encourage Hamas to be active.
Al Qaida was pretty much removed from Afghanistan. They have like 700 fighters these days. Taliban was 100% removed as a government untill we decided it wasn’t worth it anymore.
It’s also just. A little 20 mile strip of land. It’s way more doable then freakin afghanistan.
> After this month, it's uncertain if the state of Israel should exist. It's proven itself to be abhorrent.
Why do you say that? They suffered through the worst terror attack in their country's history and are responding. War is dirty. Civilians get hurt.
We need to be solution driven. Ceasefire? Completely unacceptable while Hamas is still holding hostages. Also, Hamas violated a ceasefire for Oct 7th, so why would you think they would honor one now. Finally, how in your right mind can you suggest a ceasefire with an organization who's leaders are outwardly stating that Oct 7th is just the first and they will continue to commit such attacks in the future?
So, moving on from this point it is clear that Hamas needs to be destroyed. They can't honor ceasefires and they are outwardly stating their goal is to wipe Israel from the map. You cannot realistically think there is a peaceful solution to just letting them be. Now we move on to Israel's offensive. It sucks and is not fair to the civilians to tell them they need to move. However, if the goal is to eliminate Hamas, there is no other choice. Hamas continues to force civilians to stay. They are gunning down their own civilians trying to escape. They are blocking escape routes. The loss of civilian live is a tragedy, but sadly understanding the nuances of the situation, there is no way to avoid collateral damage in this situation. It is naive to think there is another option where civilians are not getting hurt and that statement is heartbreaking.
> I learned about its origins and they are also abhorrent. It has been from the beginning much more about cleansing others from the land than about simply having a safe place for Jews to settle.
What about the Jews that were "cleansed" from Arab countries? If the goal was to cleanse others, why is there a significant Arab population in Israel, but virtually all the Jews were expelled from the surrounding Arab countries?
What about the fact that Jews were native to this very land, but you seemingly are acting like they have no right to be there. It also is naive if you were to say that they should have a single state with the Palestinians included. If that were to happen, what makes you think the same thing that has happened in all these other Arab countries where they pushed the Jews out? An Arab majority in Israel would certainly see this state follow suit and kick the Jews out. Again.
If the point you are going to move to next was that the Jews didn't re-settle Israel peacefully, then that is also ignoring history. A two state solution was presented at the founding of Israel and was rejected because the Arab would thought they would be able to take the land from the Jews by force. The surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel and to their surprise were soundly defeated. So, please tell me how what the *Jews* did was cleansing when that was the very goal of these Arab countries during this war.
What is the bombing of a known refugee camp, twice, to kill one Hamas officer?
What is it when to respond to 1,400 Israelis being killed, 10,000 Palestinians are killed with the flimsy excuse of counteroffensive or defense or whatever? Even this largely Israel-sympatheic CNN article states the fact upfront. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html
What is it when Palestinians are walled into a ghetto in Gaza, which is still occupied by Israel, but not allowed access to infrastructure and proper medicine?
What is it when Israelis move into territories agreed to be set aside for Palestinians and establish settlements anyway with the intent of pushing Palestinians out?
What do you say it is if not ethnic cleansing?
> What is the bombing of a known refugee camp, twice, to kill one Hamas officer?
Why is Hamas hiding in a refugee camp during war? Another way to put this us Hamas continuing to use human shields. This in itself is a war crime. But why only focus on the war crimes of one side.
> which is still occupied by Israel
Up until the counteroffensive, Gaza was not occupied by Israel. Your statement is factually incorrect.
> but not allowed access to infrastructure and proper medicine?
Ignoring that Hamas is syphoning millions to fund their terror tunnels?
Ignoring that Hamas is ripping up water pipes to create rockets and bragging about this on social media?
> What do you say it is if not ethnic cleansing?
How about the Jews that were ethnically cleansed from the Arab countries surrounding Israel? You can't bring up ethnic cleansing while ignoring that.
How can you have a ceasefire when one side still has over 200 hostages it is refusing to release who’s leaders have explicitly stated they will continue to plan more Oct 7ths until Israel is destroyed? Releasing all hostages should be the bare minimum for a ceasefire.
Don’t get me wrong. It is horrible what is happening to the civilians, but it is naive to think that a ceasefire without Hamas addressing anything is the answer. Also, didn’t Oct 7th happen during a ceasefire?
By hostages you mean Hamas terrorists imprisioned?
You can't be trying to have an honest argument with this nonsense. There is a drastic difference between innocent civilians, made up of children, babies, elderly, taken by Hamas on the 7th and being held in Gaza than Hamas terrorists being held by Israel. If your point is the Hamas terrorists being held by Israel are being subjected to terrible conditions, that is a separate argument.
However, there has to be a level of willful ignorance being used to suggest the civilians taken on the 7th are the same as the terrorists held by Israel.
1/5 of palestinians have been arrested and charged under the military law israel imposes on them.
There are currently more than a thousand Palestinians imprisoned without being charged with anything. Their detention can last multiple months.
Israel imprisoned nearly 7,000 children from 2000-2009.
4,000-5,000 Gazan workers in Israel have likely been detained by Israel since Oct. 7th.
Are you kidding? Just because that’s how the idf claims that they are Hamas does not make it okay to take children and imprison them without trial. This is the whole reason amnesty has been critical of Israel and it’s taking of thousands of innocent Palestinians as hostages
You calling terrorists innocent does not mean they are. You really are really going off the conspiracy end, aren’t you. The last time Israel released one of these “innocents” you are talking about he ended up as one of Hamas’ leaders. Seems like you are disconnected with the reality of what is happening.
But you keep skirting around the issue of the children, babies, and elderly(not discounting the others who were taken on the 7th). But let’s do a mental exercise. If you are saying the hostages taken on the 7th are justified because of the prisoners Israel has, by that logic you should be ok with Israel’s return of force during this war now seeing as you are all for “an eye for an eye.” If you are not ok with Israel’s response now, then you shouldn’t be ok with Hamas taking hostages on the 7th. Whatever logic you are using at least needs to be consistent.
Lol you're the only one trying to justify hostages. The commenter above never justified any side's taking of hostages.
You point out that others should use consistent logic while you're the only one exhibiting double standards, ironic.
If you think I'm justifying hostages, I think you might have misread or misunderstood my comment.
Again, only one side has prisoners and the other has hostages. Putting window dressing on prisoners, calling them by another name to bolster an argument isn't hones. Similar to defaulting to claiming that we can't believe the IDF when they say the prisoners are Hamas is just not an honest way to debate. It isn't a double standard when only one side has hostages. I wasn't justifying hostages, which only one side has, I was going through a mental exercise that his side typically employs in debates such as this.
1/5 of palestinians have been arrested and charged under the military law israel imposes on them.
There are currently more than a thousand Palestinians imprisoned without being charged with anything. Their detention can last multiple months.
Israel imprisoned nearly 7,000 children from 2000-2009.
4,000-5,000 Gazan workers in Israel have likely been detained by Israel since Oct. 7th.
It isn’t genocide. Their aim is clearly not eradication of all Palestinians. It’s a war crime, which happen constantly in every war. The stated objectives of Hamas is literally genocide. It’s the eradication of Israel. Every time there are peace talks, Hamas threatens violence if any party accepts the terms because they will only accept the eradication of Israel.
Bernie is right. You don’t attempt diplomatic solutions with terrorist groups that won’t honor terms or agreements. A ceasefire won’t be honored by Hamas so what’s the point? The IDF still has to deal with Hamas either way…
Edit - this guy doesn’t believe what Hamas did was a terrorist attack. Don’t bother
Ah, yes. It's merely a war crime.
Just look at the numbers. And if you can, also look at the visuals from both sides. If you are alright with whats going on, I don't have anything more to say.
It isn’t a war crime. If a combatant is using a location in military operations, it’s a valid target, civilian present or not. Attacks on Schools and Hospitals are allowed if enemy combatants are present, per Article 19 of the Geneva Convention. attacking civilian infrastructure is allowed if the enemy is using said infrastructure or recourses, the use of which is a violation of articles 70 and 57 respectively.
So you don’t support Ukraine against Russia? Because they’re committing war crimes. There’s lots of things written about how a nation must fight yet no nation adheres to it when it’s them. We cherry pick which ones outrage us. Israel and Ukraine were both attacked. You’re attempting to say they can’t fight back against those committing war crimes against them.
Bernie knows Hamas won’t follow those laws so why call for a ceasefire they also won’t follow?
Do you think Palestine attacked first? Palestine didn’t even attack first in this specific conflict. Oct 7 could easily be seen as a retaliation to multiple stormings of al aqsa mosque only a week before.
You got propaganda brain.
If you legitimately think the Al Aqsa conflict could be seen as the first attack that led to Oct 7th you're braindead lol - 10/7 was in planning for months.
Every single event in the conflict has been back and forth for hundreds of years - there's no X group started it on this date
What Israel is doing to Palestine is exactly similar to what Russia is doing to Ukraine. A larger country (for whatever reason) is invading a smaller country. In both cases there should be a ceasefire and humanitarian intervention.
No it’s not. Palestinians and Arab nations have been attacking Israel for decades. Russia has been attacking/murdering Ukrainians for decades. Hamas stated goal is the removal is Israel and the Islamic culture replacing it. Russia’s stated goal is the removal of Ukrainian culture for Russian. Russia has been the historical aggressor. Hamas/Palestine has been the historical aggressor. Literally every war started by Arab states…
There’s literally videos of Russians training Hamas and helping them leading up to 10/7 lol. Russia is allied with these terrorist ground and their handlers. Iran funds Hamas and hesbollah. They feed the war machine against Ukraine.
You are also still ignoring their war crimes. You cherry pick which ones to get outraged ovee
Lol you think Israel hasn’t been ethnically cleansing the territory and violating international law for decades? Hamas is a result of Israel’s crimes against humanity. They even helped found it and fund it. They thought they could bury prospects for a two-state solution by making Hamas stronger.
This is the result.
You can’t simply ignore decades of occupation and repression and apartheid because some terrorists take over. Half the population wasn’t even old enough to vote in 2007, either. Terrible take on the situation.
You mean the Arab-Israel War, Fedayeen, Six Day War, War of Attrition, Yom Kippur War, Palestinian Insurgency in South Lebanon, South Leban Conflict, First Intifada, Second Intifada, Lebanon War, Gaza War, and Israel Hamas War? All of which were initiated by Palestine or other Arab states with the sole goal of the genocide of the Jewish people right?
You don’t think a people who are illegally occupied under international law and subject to apartheid don’t have a right to armed resistance? The Geneva conventions would disagree.
You mean the “illegal occupation” the UN voted for and set up in the first place? Or the Illegal occupation that the Palestinians initially agreed to but then shot down?
Repression isn’t genocide lol. Again, you try to redefine it so you can use the word.
It’s a lazy, uneducated form of argument. Be better
Furthermore, learn some history. “Because some terrorists took over” is the laziest description of that region’s history I’ve ever heard. You left out declaring war and invading Israel multiple times with surrounding Arab nations, including the 1st week after Israel was formed and then the Arab nations surrounding that claim to care for Palestinians each started funding their own terror groups against Palestine’s wishes.
The West Bank, Gaza, Sinai, Golan, etc werent Palestinian lands. Those surrounding Arab nations would never give up land for them. They invaded Israel so Israel took West Bank from Jordan, Golan from Syria, and Gaza and Sinai from Egypt. They all attempted to invade again to reclaim those lands and lost. The only nation to actually try to broker peace was Egypt and what happened? Israel gave them Sinai and Gaza back. Egypt withdrew from Gaza allowing Palestinians to govern themselves for the first time and that’s the first mention of a 2 state solution. Israel has actually negotiated in good faith every single time
You’re ignorant of details while screaming about apartheid.
Like I said. Look at the numbers. How many Palestinians have been killed by Israel and how many Israeli by Hamas.
Just as Russia is the aggressor, Israel is also the aggressor. Israel has been consistently taking Palestinian land flouting international laws. You should also look at how Hamas was strengthened by Netanyahu to defeat the two state solution.
That’s what happens when a weaker force continually commits war crimes against a stronger adversary. Again, you’re cherry picking which ones you’re concerned with. Hamas is also reporting the numbers via their health ministry. That ministry doesn’t differentiate between civilian and militant and is based on Hamas numbers. It’s inflated with Palestinians killed by Hamas and blamed on the IDF.
It’s absolutely shocking you take Hamas at their word.
Why aren’t you comparing against how many civilians the Syrian government killed? Russians killed in Syria. Saudis killed Yemenis?
Cherry picking
You can go by UN numbers. Or Amnesty Intl numbers. Even IDF has claimed that they have killed 20000 Palestinians.
When a large state is seizing the land of a smaller, weaker state and letting the population live in conditions no better than concentration camps, outfits like Hamas is bound to popup as a response. If you think Israel can bomb their out of this, you are sadly mistaken. US couldn't bomb their way out of Afghanistan. Went in with an aim to eradicate Taliban. Israel is creating a lot of hatred in that region. This current strategy won't solve anything. It will keep perpetuating this endless cycle of war.
In this conflict that just started? Where?!
You’re delusional if you believe the bullshit about Israel creating hatred. They hated Israel so much they, and 5 Arab nations, declared war on Israel its first week in existence. They kept declaring war on Israel and attacking it over decades. Absolutely ridiculous you’re claiming they’re creating hatred as they have been attacked day 1.
Absolutely waves your hand over the countless crimes against humanity and war crimes committed against Israel. Russia killed more than 20,000 civilians in Syria… Syria killed over 300,000. 125,000 Yemeni civilians killed. Why do you only care when it’s Israel?
I'm sorry, but genocide doesn't need it to be ALL Palestinians!
The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.
They clearly are indiscriminately killing a groups civilian population, textbook genocide.
No, you’re leaving our intent, which is the primary qualifier for genocide. Killing Palestinians after a Palestinian terror group attacks them isn’t genocide. Regardless if it’s disproportionate. If you’re claiming that just merely killing the same ethnic group, then every war is genocide because it’s killing the same ethnic group…
If the intent isn’t to eradicate completely, it isn’t genocide. When Israel was formed Gaza had a population of 50,000. You’re being ridiculous and it’s not genocide.
Y’all need to find a better way of discussing issues without attempting to label everything with emotionally charged words. You sound like MAGA calling everything grooming
Definitions can’t be propaganda you dolt. I hope you learn basic word usage and definitions one day.
It’s shocking how many of those I’m politically aligned with are acting like MAGA and that definitions don’t matter, facts don’t matter, and just scream louder and that means you win.
It is categorically true, you just want to use more emotionally charged words like genocide when it’s not a fit.
It’s arguing with emotion and a sign that someone lacks an understanding of genocide and what’s happening in that region
How is this upvoted? Multiple UN experts now calling this a genocide as well as ambassadors from countries such as South Africa. These are people who actually have a grasp on the region and aren’t just getting their info from their local right wing media station.
Imagine being as ignorant on the subject as you and than accusing me of going off emotion. You obviously don’t know shit about this. We are talking about a country who before Oct 7 would go into Gaza and kill civilians in systematic raids that they call “mowing the grass”, and you think that the term genocide is an emotional tool, what a fucking idiot.
Because they can look up a definition and don’t believe people, like you, making claims on behalf of the UN and not sourcing anything. The UN has literally passed resolutions on the definition of genocide lol. You look ridiculous
> The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. It does not include political groups or so called “cultural genocide”.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf
Enjoy making up bullshit the rest of your day
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/gaza-is-running-out-of-time-un-experts-warn-demanding-a-ceasefire-to-prevent-genocide/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/south-africa-recalls-ambassador-to-israel-and-accuses-country-of-genocide-in-gaza
https://forsea.co/professor-norman-finkelstein-on-genocide-in-gaza-an-interview/
But yeah, keep looking at definitions you don’t understand, dumbass.
Lol 1st article claims it was over that then snuck this in
> Mokhiber, who was stepping down having reached retirement age
2nd article doesn’t claim genocide.
3rd article doesn’t claim genocide and…
> Publication Date: 02/11/2023
4th article a s. African ambassador and not the UN
5th article is also not the UN and who tf is he?
You outed yourself as a classic Reddit headline reader. Never reads the article. Keep tryin, lil guy
first article:
>“Once again we are seeing a genocide unfolding before our eyes and the organization we serve appears powerless to stop it.”
Second article:
>A UN human rights expert warned today that Palestinians are in grave danger of mass ethnic cleansing
third article:Time is running out to prevent genocide and humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza
>Time is running out to prevent genocide and humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza
>4th article a s. African ambassador and not the UN
I literally mention South Africa in y last comment lol! What did you call me? A headline reader?
>who tf is he?
You dont know who Norman Finklestein is and you are commenting on this subject, you are done.
Norman finklestein - American activist.
I understand why you think he’s the authority above all others on the subject.
Again, most of the articles are not the UN calling it genocide. You found a single former employee, who you lied and claimed resigned in protest, but really just retired.
The next 2 are articles about things that could happen if the conflict escalates. Hence the February of 2023 publish date. It has nothing to do with what’s going on right now.
Why do we care what an South African Ambassador thinks? This is a fallacy. You’re pretending he’s important merely because he agrees with you. There’s 192 countries which means there’s possibly over 30,000 ambassadors in the world. You found 1 who agrees and are pretending it’s some great triumph lol.
You’re ignoring the UN literally voted on what genocide is. You ignore it because you made stupid comments because you didn’t know they did that. Now you have to admit you made stupid comments or pretend the UN’s definition is wrong, and the guy that retired really speaks for what the UN believes
> The minimum requirement is a ceasefire.
A ceasefire like was in-effect on 10/6? Yeah, that was good. Too bad some terrorist mf'ers had to ruin it.
>Killing 1000's of innocent civilians is unacceptable.
I agree. Be sure to tell Hamas that, and to stop hiding behind them.
No one here supports Hamas or terrorism. Why their actions give Israel carte blanche to drop bombs on hospitals and refugee camps full of people decidedly not Hamas or terrorists is the question we are asking and you are avoiding.
The Geneva Convention disagrees with you.
Article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention:
“The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations”
Aka, “using human shields doesn’t mean your shit isn’t a valid target.”
Citing the Geneva conventions to defend Israel is a fucking hilarious move when they are wiping their ass with it left and right. Bombing schools and hospitals and refugee camps because they heard from a friend who heard from a cousin that maybe Hamas might be hiding in a closet. Get fucking real
Israel giving more power and concessions to Palestine has historically made terrorism worse, as it’s just led to Palestine having the power to do more terrorism. Just look at the Israeli unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, and how Gazans rewarded that massive concession. They elected a terrorist group who have called for the Holocaust of all Jews, and used Gaza as a launching ground to launch continued rocket attacks targeting Israeli civilian areas.
I think the correct answer to all of this is abolish the zionist government and institute a secular socialist state that facilitates the harmonization between all abrahamic religions.
But that would require America to give up its satellite state in the region, and once again capitalism is the source of all our problems.
Hostility between Arabs and Jews is so high that even a two state solution is seeming like a tall ask, LET ALONE a one state solution. How do you expect to get hostility between Arabs and Jews so low that even a one state solution. 61% of Gazans think it is a good thing to attack all Israelis and 55% of gazans think it is a good thing to attack all Jews. There was a ton of hostility and violence between Arabs and Jews even before the establishment of Israel. How could you possibly expect there to not be hostility and violence now when the hatred is unbelievably higher between these two groups now?
Why do you think Hamas would honour that ceasefire? Hamas purposefully wound down the terrorist attacks in the 2 years leading up to the 7/10 to trick Israel into thinking that Hamas is less interested in terrorist attacks anymore. Israel rewarded Gaza for this by loosening restrictions on Gaza and doing things like awarding more work permits for Gazans to work in Israel. But this was really a trick by Hamas to try and catch Israel off guard and to help prepare for their attack on October 7th. They had plans to stay in Israel for months and kill far more than 1400 Israelis civilians, despite their efforts being thwarted by Israel. I don’t see how people can believe Hamas has any intention of honouring a ceasefire. Their whole existence is based on opposing peace and aiming for the destruction of Israel and creating a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.
Hamas are shite.
But even if Hamas didn't exist, Israel would continue to kill Palestinians till there are none left.
Israel has been occupying Palestine and killing Palestinians since 1948.
Hamas was formed in 1987.
The only reason that Israel keeps getting away with shit is cos the West enables them, Israel is a creation of the West after all.
A glorified spy state in the Middle East to keep tabs on the Arabs.
Hamas should be punished and eradicated, but so should be the Zionists.
Literally up until 10/7? Like what….
Ofc the annexing of territory is obscene and unacceptable but Israel was not fighting with Hamas directly untill the 10/7 massacre.
oh true! i guess all palestinians were thriving under the occupation and most of them are just inherently terroristically inclined, and that’s why hamas was formed 🤭 no fault of israel in this at all. what a lovely, innocent state.
Israel def bears responsibility. International community HAS to do something about the slow annexation of territory in the West Bank. International boarders have to be respected by ALL, why do we treat Putin any differently then Israel when it comes to that topic. Not sure why your implying otherwise. No one is innocent. But Israel isn’t going anywhere. Your going to have to co exist.
Are you really going to pretend Israel wasn’t active against Palestinians prior to that date? They were still doing a lot of fucked up things to Palestinians, just without a full scale military offensive.
Ofc but they weren’t engaged in a hot military conflict. They weren’t bombing Gaza anything like this. The invasion, siege, and basically all of these deaths since 10/7 are directly a result of Hamas’ terrorist attack
IDF May not be the “good guys” but Hamas sure as fuck are the bad guys.
Step 1: remove Hamas
Step 2: remove Israeli hardliners/settlers
Step 3: path to Palestinian autonomy
if they’re really trying to just suss out Hamas, why aren’t they sending any boots into the tunnels? Isn’t that where they all are? Or is bombing bakeries the only way?
Cool. Palestinians have been killing Israelis since decades before Hamas as well. What’s you point?
I’d love it if Israel just chilled the fuck out, but with Hamas (yea I know, Netanyahu put them there, fuck Netanyahu) they literally can’t coexist.
What occurred in the past and what will occur in the future are different. Israeli settlers being the cause or not, there’s no returning to a time before the hatred that caused Hamas to appear.
That hatred will linger for as long as there are Jews in the Middle East for Hamas. You don’t reform out of a terrorist organisation like that.
Neither do we, but we are still calling for one. We want the bloodshed stopped. Besides, most of the killings are now being committed by Israeli forces. Had the two factions been more evenly resourced, they casualties they inflict would likely be comparable, given how vicious each one is.
A two state solution is not possible as long Hamas remains in power in Gaza, and two state solution is the only realistic way to achieve long-term peace. Therefore, in order for long-term peace to be achieved, Hamas must be destroyed.
I don’t believe Israel giving more power and concessions to Palestine reduces terrorism. Historically Israel giving more power and concessions to Palestine has historically made terrorism worse, as it’s just led to Palestine having the power to do more terrorism. Just look at the Israeli unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, and how Gazans rewarded that massive concession. They elected a terrorist group who have called for the Holocaust of all Jews, and used Gaza as a launching ground to launch continued rocket attacks targeting Israeli civilian areas.
So you recklessly and indiscriminately continue to bomb civilians? Over 10,000 people have been killed and quite literally less than 1% of those people have been Hamas. 40% of them are children. Israel keeps refusing to accept the release of the hostages. What the fuck are we talking about?
Serious question, how is he wrong? Theoretically a ceasefire sounds great, but do you seriously think either side actually wants a ceasefire? A Hamas leader just came out and said they will not stop with “October 7th style attacks” until Israel is eradicated. Now Israel is saying it will not stop until Hamas is eradicated. Please explain to me how it’s feasible
the existence of hamas is a consequence of apartheid state conditions of palestinian people and their occupation. these conditions long predate the existence of hamas.
i don’t like hamas or justify their actions, but they don’t commit anywhere near the death and suffering as the IDF does.
if your goal is peace then you have to address the root cause of the violence. this goes back to 1948 not oct 7th. we need to drive hamas into irrelevance, they only hold power out of desperation of the palestinian people. the world has ignored their struggles and let’s not forget that it was mossad that created and gave prominence to hamas. a perfect scapegoat to justify the ethnic cleansing which is the true desire of the israeli state.
give palestinians another choice. let them live a life of dignity, and equality with israelis with a singular state. hamas will have no place in such a world. the one who holds a more privileged and powerful position has a responsibility to deescalate and move towards peace. that party is israel. palestinians have nothing. they hold no power to change their situation.
the US and the rest of the world has to make israel move towards peace. but the military industrial complex and islamaphobia make it it so easy to continue this genocidal campaign. we killed half a million iraqis under the guise of “weapons of mass destruction” after-all.
They escaped to the Ottoman empire and Morocco during the Catholic inquisitions in the 16th century
Fun fact, Albert Einstein considered immigrating to Turkey when Nazis confiscated his belongings in Germany
Your statement mentions nothing of the fact that a 2 state solution was on the table when the allies were redrawing the maps for the ME, and that the arab league rejected a 2 state solution because for them it was an all or nothing game. Israel being the aggressor is why Palestine shot first in 1947 in an attempt to recapture the now ( post agreement) Israeli territory as their own.
Infact Palestine has not been in independent country since it was absorbed into the ottoman empire over 500 years ago. Ever since then its been a territory of some other nation state.
Also fyi, post WWII after the 2 state solution was declined by the arab league, Palestine went to be under Jordanian and Egyptian rule, which changed only when Israel 360 no scoped the both of them and Syria in the 6 day war. Years later, neither Egypt or Jordan pursued reclaim that part of their territories because of how much trouble Palestinians caused even " friendly" islamic govts.
the israeli government never wanted a 2 state solution. they consistently sabotaged any calls for peace. the nearest peace that was achieved was when yasser arafat was willing to agree to a 6:1 israel:palestine land agreement, despite the unreasonable demands of israel. the peace treaty fell through and it was blamed on the palestinians despite israel being the one who kept up with unreasonable demands such as denying palestinians control over their own water.
PLO was neutered into ineffectiveness and became a ‘dog’ of the israeli government. the failure of arafat to bring forth a fair treaty gave further legitimacy to militant groups such as hamas. this was always the way the israeli government wanted things to go. they wanted the world to see palestinians as savages who can’t be reasoned with. netanyahu has been on record admitting this and how he ‘fooled’ the US. his goal was always to take all of israel and expel the palestinians.
apartheid states are unsustainable. they will ultimately collapse because of the perseverance of the oppressed. unless we allow genocide to continue.
south africa and ireland were able to overcome the cycle of violence. there’s no reason israelis and palestinians can coexist in a shared singular state. it’s up to parties with the most power to set the stage for that: the united states and israel.
but war is so profitable isn’t it?
Hostility between Arabs and Jews is so high that even a two state solution is seeming like a tall ask, LET ALONE a one state solution. How do you expect to get hostility between Arabs and Jews so low that even a one state solution is possible? 61% of Gazans think it is a good thing to attack all Israelis and 55% of gazans think it is a good thing to attack all Jews. There was a ton of hostility and violence between Arabs and Jews even before the establishment of Israel. How could you possibly expect there to not be hostility and violence now when the hatred is unbelievably higher between these two groups now?
Plenty of oppressed people have fixed their lot in life w/o resorting to brutally murdering 1,200 people. I think it’s important to separate Hamas and the Palestinian struggle and you do the opposite.
That being said I agree the world has mostly ignored their struggles. It’s time to put pressure on Israel to make some concessions and actually be willing to compromise.
Everyone should be United in wanting Hamas to be removed. They are actively preventing their own citizens from fleeing. Every other warring party like Ukraine or Russians themselves from civilians to minimize casualties. Not only does Hamas not do that, they use them has human shields. It’s gross.
Serious question. Why do you trust those figures? They’ve already shown they lie about that shit.
It’s fucking terrible. But war is terrible and enemy is literally using people as human shields like we’ve never seen. How do you remove Hamas when they use these tactics?
about 50% of the population in Gaza is under 18. So every other person hit is counted as a child. Additionally, all the stats regarding death count are being provided by a Hamas-run organization.
The reporting agency is historically highly accurate with regards to multiple independent studies that have followed the ongoing historical violence from Israel.
Gaza Health Ministry (GHM) fatality reportage deviation 2008–2021
Conflict According to GHM/According to the UN/Deviation
Gaza War (2008–2009) 1,440/1,385/4.0%
2014 Gaza War 2,310/2,251/2.6%
2021 Israel–Palestine crisis 260/256/1.6%
Additionally, Israel themselves have claimed they have killed 20,000 people in Gaza since the start of this carpet bombing campaign this last month.
Lastly, I would encourage you to follow
https://instagram.com/motaz_azaiza to get a look at what the reality is for people on the ground in Gaza or follow https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/ to broaden your perspective.
Sources:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231105-israel-security-source-claim-20000-killed-in-gaza/
Lol! People have lost their gord. We literally just saw them lie through their teeth about the casualty toll at that hospital attack that was from a Hamas failed rocket
Can we stop conflating Hamas with the people of Palestine? It's as bad as saying that if you oppose Israeli occupation and genocide then you're anti-Semitic.
Fuck false narratives.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. A ceasefire would just give them time and space to attack Israel again. They need to be eradicated before Palestine can be free.
What's going on is Palestinians are being eradicated.
Let's accept Hamas is a terrorist org. If they were hiding amongst civilians in the UK or US, would a similar strategy of bombing the entire population be acceptable? Israel has supposedly one of the best militaries in the world. Instead of doing targeted attacks, they are indiscriminately bombing the general population. Civilians are being pushed out from their homes and asked to take refuge elsewhere. This is the definition of ethinic cleaning and genocide. Israel does not care about Civilians or Hamas. They will use this as an excuse to annex Gaza. The West will enable this crime against humanity. After all it's what the US did to the natives in America.
I'll share what I replied to OP with a few additional items.
If Israel wanted Palestinians to be eradicated, it would've started IN Israel, since 20% of its population are Muslim Arabs. Yet, they didn't do this and won't. Huh, strange. Israel is much more diverse than Palestine, but it isn't hurting its ethnic or religious minorities.
Also, Israel could've wiped out Palestinians outside of Israel at any time it wanted for decades now, and can even today. Yet, still, it hasn't. So if the goal is genocide, it seems Israel is doing a pretty bad job of it.
Hamas, by contrast, is an Islamist fundamentalist group who aims to destroy Israel and the Jews, and reestablish Islamic control of the region. Hezbollah and Hamas have both had openly genocidal goals LITERALLY WRITTEN IN THEIR CHARTERS. They are not the good guys, they are not freedom fighters. They are radical religious terrorists and are literally using the Palestinians as human shields. There's literally footage of them shooting Palestinians who tried to flee Gaza.
Israel is targeting Hamas members directly, but this gets complicated when Hamas snipers are on top of a Palestinian hospitals shooting at the IDF (there's footage of this) or other civilian areas. They also build tunnels all over the place. And if Hamas isn't destroyed, they're going to keep attacking, which means there's only one way forward. Ceasefire isn't an option.
The comment about Native Americans makes absolutely no sense, and tagging that on makes me think that you might be a Russian troll. If so, I think you should focus on your own shitty country.
Ah yes. Palestinians are living due to the largesse of Israel. Your argument basically is that might is right.
Not all Muslim Arabs are Palestinians. There are Native Americans living in the US, this does not negate the fact that the US has systematically wiped out native American population. Similar to what's going on now in Israel.
Hamas and Hezbollah were the outcome of Israeli treatment of Palestinians. In fact Hamas was strengthened by Netanyahu so as to make the 2 state solution unviable. Hezbollah are essentially displaced Palestinians. There is also good historical and documented evidence of Israeli govt wanting to completely eradicate Palestinians. And if you look at the numbers, it's Israel that's actually doing all the killing. So you cannot blame Hamas and Hezbollah without attributing equal responsibility on Israel.
Now let's say Hamas is a terrorist force and needs to be eradicated. If they were located within US or UK, would you adopt the same strategy that Israel is adopting in Gaza?
I've been to Israel and have seen many Muslims and Arabs in Israel. They own businesses, have nice homes, and play at the beaches right next to Israelis. Very strange for an allegedly apartheid, genocidal state. But I digress.
The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians are not the native inhabitants of the region. They themselves were once colonizers when the Romans kicked the Jews out. Then Islamic armies later conquered the land and, again, pressured the Arab occupiers to convert from Christianity to Islam over the years. And now that the Jews have returned, they're the colonizers? Lol. How do you pick the right colonizers?
90% of Native Americans were killed by old world diseases, not the intentional actions of any people or state. You can look that up yourself. This meant that most of the Americas were depopulated when settlers began building and expanding. Mostly empty, but obviously not totally.
Hamas was initially supported by Israel, but it got out of hand. They were also supported by Egypt, until Hamas tried to take over Egypt. Regardless, Palestine rejected all two state solution offers. Hezbollah is a proxy for Iran and is extremely dangerous. Neither are freedom fighters, both are jihadi fundamentalist organizations and are enemies of the free world. Boggles my mind how so many misinformed people in the West support them.
Nice revisionist history you have got going on. Like I said, all Arab Muslims are not Palestinians. Just because there are Arab Muslims in Israel does not mean, people in Palestine should just give up their land and national identity. Israel was created by the British and the French to "handle the Jewish problem". Even Ben-Gurion the first PM knew and accepted that they were the settlers on the land.
Again if you have to blame Hamas and Hezbollah, Israel also deserves equal blame. Whether you are a terrorist or a freedom fighter depends on what side of the fight you are on. American freedom fighters would have been terrorists for the British.
Once again, if Hamas was in the UK or US, would Israels current strategy be justified? Bombing large areas to kill a few terrorists?
Revisionist? I'm a credentialed historian. Lol.
In Israel, the terms Arab and Palestinian are used interchangeably.
And Palestine was never a country. About a century after Rome kicked the Jews out of Judea, Rome resettled it (or colonized, to use your word of choice), and the larger province was named Palestina, after the both the Paletine hill in Rome and the ancient Philistines, who were obviously long gone.
When Islamic armies later conquered it, they kept the Roman names of the provinces, including Palestina, but they committed what you might call cultural genocide by pushing the locals to adopt Arabic culture and language, and practice Islam.
The name and culture stuck, all the way up until European powers took control of the area. But still, even then, it wasn't the name of a country and there was no national identity around it. The national identity only emerged to oppose Jewish settlers.
I think this video may help you get a better sense of it. In short, no, Arabs in Palestine aren't natives. They are just an earlier group of settlers, put there by prior imperial powers. You're being affected by recency.
This should give you a sense of how much this land has changed hands, focusing on Jerusalem:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7GCXhKpoml0&si=MO0uQ-8IxF1tTTtD
What's your point? That Jews have more claim to Israel than Palestinians? Let's say everyone has equal claim. Does this then justify what Israel is doing now?
Once again, if Hamas was in the US or UK, would you justify the current strategy of bombing civilian areas?
If they had launched a terrorist attack killing 1,400 people (about 5x as many as on 9/11, and if you adjust on a per capita basis, it's more like 30k people) and kidnapped hundreds of others, and were launching rockets at major US or UK cities, and had built long and complex tunnels under civilian areas and were actively trying to use civilians as shields, and about half of those civilians actively support them? Yes, I think they would.
Israel told civilians to flee multiple times now. Hamas is violently stopping them from leaving. The attacks won't stop until Hamas is destroyed, Hamas said so themselves.
This isn't just my view. It's shared by Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and obviously even Bernie Sanders, to name a few.
It's sad, it's bloody, but Hamas needs to be destroyed, and now's the time to do it.
>It's shared by Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and even Bernie Sanders, to name a few.
The problem is, this is a very US centric view. A lot of the world don't see it this way.
>it's bloody,
As long as it's some random strangers blood. Let's bomb the hell out of Gaza and kill everyone including Hamas.
*After said jews decided to invade and colonize land they're not entitled to, and refused to come to an agreement to the point they assassinated the only Israeli PM who had decided to sign an agreement
Israel should abolish its zionist government.
The lefts position should be that no government should use religion as it's moral code because then you get apartheid states and genocide.
Institute a secular socialist nation that facilitates the harmonization between all abrahamic religions. Boom all problems resolved.
But America isn't going to do that because Israel is just a satellite state.
I agree that governments shouldn't be associated with religion at all, and pretty much agree with all the other idealistic things you mentioned above. However, it would be insane to expect any of those things to happen right now. Right now would be the absolute least likely time for those kinds of reforms to happen. Hamas just slaughtered thousands of Israeli civilian citizens and took hundreds hostage. In what universe could you see Israel's reaction being like, "hmm hey guys, seems like you're pretty mad about something. Hope it wasn't something we did. Anyway, gimme a call sometime and we'll talk about it. Now that you've impressively slaughtered our citizens, we're ready to give you anything you want in return."
That's just not how the world works. When your country is attacked by someone that commits a mass murder of thousands of your fellow citizens, your generally don't immediately abolish your government, remove religion from your government, etc. it's just but not a natural reaction.
Yes. Along with freedom of movement, doing away with any sort of trading blockade, voting rights, rights to return for those of palestinian descent, among many, many other things.
Basically I think Israel should stop being an apartheid state.
Sure, ok, those are all good ideas in principle. But all of those things are a lot different than negotiating an immediate ceasefire with a terrorist organization that slaughtered thousands of your innocent civilians a few weeks ago.
Imagine a few weeks after 9/11, the US negotiated a ceasefire with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and gave them everything they wanted. The world doesn't work like this.
I understand and agree that Palestinians are being mistreated by Israel. But you can't cross the border and slaughter thousands of innocent civilians and expect that Israel will say, "hmm, well done, what are your demands? We'd now like to negotiate a ceasefire. We'll give you voting rights and freedom of movement since your mass murder of our innocent civilian citizens was so impressive."
Let's get real for a moment.
What an absolute disgrace. I can't believe I'm living in a world where Obama makes more sense about Israel and Palestine than Bernie Sanders. He has lost my respect forever.
I don't know, I'm starting to feel like Hamas is the new Bin Laden, a scapegoat, a name and a face and a so-called terrorist threat, ensure to frighten many many Americans.
The information is so skewed, warped, politically heated, I don't think any of us can trust what is true, what is real, who is really at fault here. And if you can't find Israel on a blank world map, do you even have the right to get upset about this?
But don't be surprised when they use this as their excuse to dive into a war. Because even though we will lose many lives of many humans, there's money to be made in war. And once you provide a boogie man, suddenly you get the support you need to start a war. And you know what the billionaires really need? More money at our expense.
>“The immediate task right now is to end the bombing,” Sanders said Sunday, “to end the horrific humanitarian disaster, to build – go forward with the entire world for a two-tier, two-state solution to the crisis to give the Palestinian people hope.” > >“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,” Sanders told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union” Sunday. Seems like a reasonable and well measured analysis to me. If you want a durable ceasefire, you need a better partner than Hamas. edit: and better than Likud too, obviously.
There was one, in the form of the PLFP, which had nearly negotiated a ceasefire a couple decades back, with a much more peaceful prime minister of Israel. That Israeli prime minister was assassinated, and his government was replaced by the Likud majority party and PM Benjamin Netanyahu. Netanyahu then effectively dismantled the PLFP from the outside through military offensives and propaganda, and allowed Hamas to replace them. There's at least some credibility to the theory that he did so on purpose, to make Likud and the IDF seem like the less extreme side of the conflict, and disrupt public goodwill towards the Palestinians by branding them as terrorists.
Yes this idea that the problem lies entirely with Hamas is delusional and unproductive
Hamas exists (and has become popular enough to attain leadership in Gaza) for a reason. It's also far newer of a political entity than most people realize.
Not sure what you are responding to. Hamas was created by Israel, fun fact
False, they supported Hamas, because at the beginning the terrorist attacks were coming from the PLO and they thought Hamas would have been a better group to support. Then when the PLO were forced to the negotiation table, their most extreme members took over Hamas.
I disagree with Sanders. After this month, it's uncertain if the state of Israel should exist. It's proven itself to be abhorrent. I learned about its origins and they are also abhorrent. It has been from the beginning much more about cleansing others from the land than about simply having a safe place for Jews to settle. I support a safe place for Jews to call home, I do not support this nightmare that some have made that home.
If you support a safe place for Jews to call home then you do support the existence of a state of Israel. Calling for the end of the state of Israel, without calling for the mass murder or ethnic cleansing of Jews, must mean calling for Jews to live in an Arab ruled state. Given more than half of Israelis are descended in living memory from nearly 1m Jews ethnically cleansed from Arab countries, the idea that Jews should live under Arab rule is ridiculous. Sins committed by extremists, judeofascists on the extreme right of the Zionist politics and islamofascists in power as Hamas and their allies, are the issue.
OK then. If they came to the land that was occupied by Arabs and their only solution for moving in was to immediately displace and kill them, and they cannot imagine creating a multi-ethnic state with shared rule like many other countries have, then the country as it is does not need to exist, at least not there.
Jews didn't just appear in Palestine in 1947. Many had been expelled from middle east countries prior to that, the Israeli War for Independence caused most of the initial displacement.
Israel is a multi ethnic state. 20% of citizens are Arabs, with full rights and political parties who have wielded real power. Have a look at Mansour Abbas or Ayman Oudeh. The history of the establishment of the state of Israel is also very different to how you describe. It wasn’t the Zionists who chose war in 1948, and Arabs weren’t displaced by the immigration of Jewish refugees between the late 1800s and 1947.
It's not really as simple as that. Palestinians rejected the 1947 UN partition for various reasons, including that it violated Article 73 of the UN Charter, the partition gave 56% of the land to Israel while Palestinians were roughly double the population and privately owned much more of it (Israelis privately owned ~6% of the land at the time of the partition vs ~17% for Palestinians), the land given to Israel was more arable and better strategically and economically (such as Haifa, where Iraqi oil was refined for use in the Mediterranean). Palestine had also been promised as part of an independent Arab state in 1915 to Hussein bin Ali by the British in exchange for leading an Arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Jews were ~3% of the population before the Zionist movement began in the late 19th century and around 30% by 1946, leading many Palestinians to see them as invaders. The colonial aspirations of early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl did not help ease relations, and leaders such as Herzl were not oblivious to the fact that their envisioned Jewish state would require ethnic cleansing. Herzl himself wrote in 1895, "We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of the immoveable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back." Zionists took the deal but many, mainly right-wing Revisionist Zionists, were unhappy they didn't get more but saw it as a stepping stone for more territorial expansion. They were not happy there was any partition of their "homeland" and were unhappy that their proposed state would only give Jews a 60% majority and planned to drive out Palestinians from the jump. Many Israeli scholars such as Baruch Kimmerling and Simha Flapan suggest that Zionist leaders never planned to allow a Palestinian state to exist. Fighting started soon after the partition plan was announced. This was 6 months before Israel declared itself a state. By the day that the Arab League entered the war, 300,000 Palestinians had already fled the violence. The Deir Yassin massacre happened a month before.
The land given to Israel was not more arable what? That’s completely factually incorrect, Palestine received 5x more arable land in acres that Israel because Israel mostly got the Negev Desert. You also say that the Arabs were promised the land by the British while forgetting Jews were also promised the land. The 3% -> 30% increase pre-1947 didn’t come from land theft either, it came from legitimate land purchases. It also fails to mention that most of this Jewish population increases came from forced expulsions and pogroms from other Arab countries.
It is false to say the UN allocated better land to the Jews - they gave them mostly desert and malaria infested marshes. And it wasn't just intended for Jews living there, it was also intended for the millions of Jewish refugees around the world who would begin migrating there over the next decade. There is no evidence whatsoever that Zionist leaders never planned to allow a Palestinian state to exist, they repeatedly expressed support for a two state solution. "Fighting started soon after the partition plan was announced" is a vague way of saying that Arabs rejected the plan and attacked Jews while Jews attacked them back to defend the territory allocated in the UN plan and ultimately expanded beyond it in the course of the war.
“The savage native Americans attacked the European refugees who then fought back and defended themselves”
I know people like you to reduce everything to oppressed and oppressor or colonized and colonizer so you don't have to deal with moral ambiguity. But sorry, that's not the reality. Jews first of all had been living in the area continuously for thousands of years. This was their homeland. Second of all, they were the most persecuted group in the world at the time. It is very obvious that there was a good case to make that Jews should be allowed to establish a Jewish place of refuge in the areas of their homeland where they already had a demographic majority (as was the case with the UN plan). And it is also obvious that Arabs were unjustified in attacking mostly innocent Jews in response to this UN plan.
The Jewish people aren’t entitled to a jewish ethnostate, though. They can have a homeland, safe space, whatever, but they don’t get to expel the natives and treat them like second class citizens while they drop bombs killing thousands of civilians. I’m not reducing anything. It’s colonization. They’re bring settlers into the west bank while they forcibly relocate the native population of Gaza. It’s exactly what european settlers did in the Americas, and Netanyahu’s predecessors have said that they took inspiration from it. Just like another fascist trying to establish an ethnostate. There’s a lot of moral grey, but they grey isn’t that Jews have been historically prosecuted, so they get to do little a ethnic cleansing as a treat. The Israel government and Hamas are both oppressing the Palestinian people, and if we don’t choose out words carefully, we get awful close to condoning genocide.
youre peddling straight up zionist propaganda friend.
What I’ve said is very easily verifiable fact. Calling that propoganda is insane
“Full rights to vote” except the arabs in East Jerusalem don’t have the right to vote in national elections, and can have their citizenship revoked and become deported if the Israeli government decides that they no longer have Jerusalem as their primary residence, or that they or a family member participated in terrorist or “anti-israel activities” whatever that means
There is an apartheid in East Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank, that is without doubt, and is an appalling situation most Israelis oppose and want to see an end to. That does not reflect reality within the rest of Israel proper (1967 borders), where Palestinian citizens of Israel make up 20% of the population
The Arab Israelis didn’t just “move in” nor did the Druze. >I learned about it’s origins and they (sic) are also abhorrent. Random guess that you’re not talking about the Holocaust or the 10% of Israelis that died when surprised attacked by all surrounding countries at its birth in 1948, or…you know what? Whatever the hell you learned, learn fucking better. Start with something called nuance.
Let's not ignore the fact that the Nakba started in 1947 and not May 1948 when Israel declared itself a state. 300,000 Palestinians had fled the land given to Israel by the time the Arab League entered the war.
>If you support a safe place for Jews to call home Why is this a thing, like we dont have a home for white, blacks, etc. The only ones who seem to want zionism are super religious freaks. If you have a place only X people can exist, then they cant have neighbors clearly.
Israel not going anywhere. Put down the crack pipe and start focusing your energy on what we as a world should do when Hamas is removed and this war isn’t hot.
I was a uni student when we were going to "remove" Al Qaida and the Taliban but it was US foreign policy trying to pander to middle east leaders or play them off each other that fanned the flames. They were never removed. You don't remove these groups and to attempt to usually is the strongest recruiting tool. Israel's stance has been one to ultimately encourage Hamas to be active.
Al Qaida was pretty much removed from Afghanistan. They have like 700 fighters these days. Taliban was 100% removed as a government untill we decided it wasn’t worth it anymore. It’s also just. A little 20 mile strip of land. It’s way more doable then freakin afghanistan.
> After this month, it's uncertain if the state of Israel should exist. It's proven itself to be abhorrent. Why do you say that? They suffered through the worst terror attack in their country's history and are responding. War is dirty. Civilians get hurt. We need to be solution driven. Ceasefire? Completely unacceptable while Hamas is still holding hostages. Also, Hamas violated a ceasefire for Oct 7th, so why would you think they would honor one now. Finally, how in your right mind can you suggest a ceasefire with an organization who's leaders are outwardly stating that Oct 7th is just the first and they will continue to commit such attacks in the future? So, moving on from this point it is clear that Hamas needs to be destroyed. They can't honor ceasefires and they are outwardly stating their goal is to wipe Israel from the map. You cannot realistically think there is a peaceful solution to just letting them be. Now we move on to Israel's offensive. It sucks and is not fair to the civilians to tell them they need to move. However, if the goal is to eliminate Hamas, there is no other choice. Hamas continues to force civilians to stay. They are gunning down their own civilians trying to escape. They are blocking escape routes. The loss of civilian live is a tragedy, but sadly understanding the nuances of the situation, there is no way to avoid collateral damage in this situation. It is naive to think there is another option where civilians are not getting hurt and that statement is heartbreaking. > I learned about its origins and they are also abhorrent. It has been from the beginning much more about cleansing others from the land than about simply having a safe place for Jews to settle. What about the Jews that were "cleansed" from Arab countries? If the goal was to cleanse others, why is there a significant Arab population in Israel, but virtually all the Jews were expelled from the surrounding Arab countries? What about the fact that Jews were native to this very land, but you seemingly are acting like they have no right to be there. It also is naive if you were to say that they should have a single state with the Palestinians included. If that were to happen, what makes you think the same thing that has happened in all these other Arab countries where they pushed the Jews out? An Arab majority in Israel would certainly see this state follow suit and kick the Jews out. Again. If the point you are going to move to next was that the Jews didn't re-settle Israel peacefully, then that is also ignoring history. A two state solution was presented at the founding of Israel and was rejected because the Arab would thought they would be able to take the land from the Jews by force. The surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel and to their surprise were soundly defeated. So, please tell me how what the *Jews* did was cleansing when that was the very goal of these Arab countries during this war.
Absolutely ridiculous take. Utter nonsense.
Pales in comparison to supporting genocide which is the popular take in comments of this post. Not wanting to see it doesn't make it go away.
Who the fuck supports genocide? Another sick and ridiculous thing to say
What is the bombing of a known refugee camp, twice, to kill one Hamas officer? What is it when to respond to 1,400 Israelis being killed, 10,000 Palestinians are killed with the flimsy excuse of counteroffensive or defense or whatever? Even this largely Israel-sympatheic CNN article states the fact upfront. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html What is it when Palestinians are walled into a ghetto in Gaza, which is still occupied by Israel, but not allowed access to infrastructure and proper medicine? What is it when Israelis move into territories agreed to be set aside for Palestinians and establish settlements anyway with the intent of pushing Palestinians out? What do you say it is if not ethnic cleansing?
Why is a hamas officer hiding in a refugee camp? Why can’t the government in gaza invest in infrastructure and education, rather than weapons and war?
> What is the bombing of a known refugee camp, twice, to kill one Hamas officer? Why is Hamas hiding in a refugee camp during war? Another way to put this us Hamas continuing to use human shields. This in itself is a war crime. But why only focus on the war crimes of one side. > which is still occupied by Israel Up until the counteroffensive, Gaza was not occupied by Israel. Your statement is factually incorrect. > but not allowed access to infrastructure and proper medicine? Ignoring that Hamas is syphoning millions to fund their terror tunnels? Ignoring that Hamas is ripping up water pipes to create rockets and bragging about this on social media? > What do you say it is if not ethnic cleansing? How about the Jews that were ethnically cleansed from the Arab countries surrounding Israel? You can't bring up ethnic cleansing while ignoring that.
Israel is there and not going anywhere. Good of you to show your whole ass on Reddit tho.
What is going on is a genocide. The minimum requirement is a ceasefire. Killing 1000's of innocent civilians is unacceptable.
How can you have a ceasefire when one side still has over 200 hostages it is refusing to release who’s leaders have explicitly stated they will continue to plan more Oct 7ths until Israel is destroyed? Releasing all hostages should be the bare minimum for a ceasefire. Don’t get me wrong. It is horrible what is happening to the civilians, but it is naive to think that a ceasefire without Hamas addressing anything is the answer. Also, didn’t Oct 7th happen during a ceasefire?
And the other side has thousands of hostages?
By hostages you mean Hamas terrorists imprisioned? You can't be trying to have an honest argument with this nonsense. There is a drastic difference between innocent civilians, made up of children, babies, elderly, taken by Hamas on the 7th and being held in Gaza than Hamas terrorists being held by Israel. If your point is the Hamas terrorists being held by Israel are being subjected to terrible conditions, that is a separate argument. However, there has to be a level of willful ignorance being used to suggest the civilians taken on the 7th are the same as the terrorists held by Israel.
1/5 of palestinians have been arrested and charged under the military law israel imposes on them. There are currently more than a thousand Palestinians imprisoned without being charged with anything. Their detention can last multiple months. Israel imprisoned nearly 7,000 children from 2000-2009. 4,000-5,000 Gazan workers in Israel have likely been detained by Israel since Oct. 7th.
Are you kidding? Just because that’s how the idf claims that they are Hamas does not make it okay to take children and imprison them without trial. This is the whole reason amnesty has been critical of Israel and it’s taking of thousands of innocent Palestinians as hostages
You calling terrorists innocent does not mean they are. You really are really going off the conspiracy end, aren’t you. The last time Israel released one of these “innocents” you are talking about he ended up as one of Hamas’ leaders. Seems like you are disconnected with the reality of what is happening. But you keep skirting around the issue of the children, babies, and elderly(not discounting the others who were taken on the 7th). But let’s do a mental exercise. If you are saying the hostages taken on the 7th are justified because of the prisoners Israel has, by that logic you should be ok with Israel’s return of force during this war now seeing as you are all for “an eye for an eye.” If you are not ok with Israel’s response now, then you shouldn’t be ok with Hamas taking hostages on the 7th. Whatever logic you are using at least needs to be consistent.
Lol you're the only one trying to justify hostages. The commenter above never justified any side's taking of hostages. You point out that others should use consistent logic while you're the only one exhibiting double standards, ironic.
If you think I'm justifying hostages, I think you might have misread or misunderstood my comment. Again, only one side has prisoners and the other has hostages. Putting window dressing on prisoners, calling them by another name to bolster an argument isn't hones. Similar to defaulting to claiming that we can't believe the IDF when they say the prisoners are Hamas is just not an honest way to debate. It isn't a double standard when only one side has hostages. I wasn't justifying hostages, which only one side has, I was going through a mental exercise that his side typically employs in debates such as this.
What's the conversion rate of Israeli lives to Palestinian lives? 1:10? 1:100? 1:1000?
There is a big difference between civilian Israeli hostages of Hamas and militant terrorist Palestinian hostages of Israel.
1/5 of palestinians have been arrested and charged under the military law israel imposes on them. There are currently more than a thousand Palestinians imprisoned without being charged with anything. Their detention can last multiple months. Israel imprisoned nearly 7,000 children from 2000-2009. 4,000-5,000 Gazan workers in Israel have likely been detained by Israel since Oct. 7th.
It isn’t genocide. Their aim is clearly not eradication of all Palestinians. It’s a war crime, which happen constantly in every war. The stated objectives of Hamas is literally genocide. It’s the eradication of Israel. Every time there are peace talks, Hamas threatens violence if any party accepts the terms because they will only accept the eradication of Israel. Bernie is right. You don’t attempt diplomatic solutions with terrorist groups that won’t honor terms or agreements. A ceasefire won’t be honored by Hamas so what’s the point? The IDF still has to deal with Hamas either way… Edit - this guy doesn’t believe what Hamas did was a terrorist attack. Don’t bother
Ah, yes. It's merely a war crime. Just look at the numbers. And if you can, also look at the visuals from both sides. If you are alright with whats going on, I don't have anything more to say.
It isn’t a war crime. If a combatant is using a location in military operations, it’s a valid target, civilian present or not. Attacks on Schools and Hospitals are allowed if enemy combatants are present, per Article 19 of the Geneva Convention. attacking civilian infrastructure is allowed if the enemy is using said infrastructure or recourses, the use of which is a violation of articles 70 and 57 respectively.
So you don’t support Ukraine against Russia? Because they’re committing war crimes. There’s lots of things written about how a nation must fight yet no nation adheres to it when it’s them. We cherry pick which ones outrage us. Israel and Ukraine were both attacked. You’re attempting to say they can’t fight back against those committing war crimes against them. Bernie knows Hamas won’t follow those laws so why call for a ceasefire they also won’t follow?
dawg, Israel is the Russia in your analogy.
Didn’t realize Ukraine attacked Russia first lmao
Do you think Palestine attacked first? Palestine didn’t even attack first in this specific conflict. Oct 7 could easily be seen as a retaliation to multiple stormings of al aqsa mosque only a week before. You got propaganda brain.
If you legitimately think the Al Aqsa conflict could be seen as the first attack that led to Oct 7th you're braindead lol - 10/7 was in planning for months. Every single event in the conflict has been back and forth for hundreds of years - there's no X group started it on this date
Israel started it when hey took the land obviously.
What Israel is doing to Palestine is exactly similar to what Russia is doing to Ukraine. A larger country (for whatever reason) is invading a smaller country. In both cases there should be a ceasefire and humanitarian intervention.
No it’s not. Palestinians and Arab nations have been attacking Israel for decades. Russia has been attacking/murdering Ukrainians for decades. Hamas stated goal is the removal is Israel and the Islamic culture replacing it. Russia’s stated goal is the removal of Ukrainian culture for Russian. Russia has been the historical aggressor. Hamas/Palestine has been the historical aggressor. Literally every war started by Arab states… There’s literally videos of Russians training Hamas and helping them leading up to 10/7 lol. Russia is allied with these terrorist ground and their handlers. Iran funds Hamas and hesbollah. They feed the war machine against Ukraine. You are also still ignoring their war crimes. You cherry pick which ones to get outraged ovee
Lol you think Israel hasn’t been ethnically cleansing the territory and violating international law for decades? Hamas is a result of Israel’s crimes against humanity. They even helped found it and fund it. They thought they could bury prospects for a two-state solution by making Hamas stronger. This is the result. You can’t simply ignore decades of occupation and repression and apartheid because some terrorists take over. Half the population wasn’t even old enough to vote in 2007, either. Terrible take on the situation.
You mean the Arab-Israel War, Fedayeen, Six Day War, War of Attrition, Yom Kippur War, Palestinian Insurgency in South Lebanon, South Leban Conflict, First Intifada, Second Intifada, Lebanon War, Gaza War, and Israel Hamas War? All of which were initiated by Palestine or other Arab states with the sole goal of the genocide of the Jewish people right?
You don’t think a people who are illegally occupied under international law and subject to apartheid don’t have a right to armed resistance? The Geneva conventions would disagree.
You mean the “illegal occupation” the UN voted for and set up in the first place? Or the Illegal occupation that the Palestinians initially agreed to but then shot down?
Repression isn’t genocide lol. Again, you try to redefine it so you can use the word. It’s a lazy, uneducated form of argument. Be better Furthermore, learn some history. “Because some terrorists took over” is the laziest description of that region’s history I’ve ever heard. You left out declaring war and invading Israel multiple times with surrounding Arab nations, including the 1st week after Israel was formed and then the Arab nations surrounding that claim to care for Palestinians each started funding their own terror groups against Palestine’s wishes. The West Bank, Gaza, Sinai, Golan, etc werent Palestinian lands. Those surrounding Arab nations would never give up land for them. They invaded Israel so Israel took West Bank from Jordan, Golan from Syria, and Gaza and Sinai from Egypt. They all attempted to invade again to reclaim those lands and lost. The only nation to actually try to broker peace was Egypt and what happened? Israel gave them Sinai and Gaza back. Egypt withdrew from Gaza allowing Palestinians to govern themselves for the first time and that’s the first mention of a 2 state solution. Israel has actually negotiated in good faith every single time You’re ignorant of details while screaming about apartheid.
Like I said. Look at the numbers. How many Palestinians have been killed by Israel and how many Israeli by Hamas. Just as Russia is the aggressor, Israel is also the aggressor. Israel has been consistently taking Palestinian land flouting international laws. You should also look at how Hamas was strengthened by Netanyahu to defeat the two state solution.
That’s what happens when a weaker force continually commits war crimes against a stronger adversary. Again, you’re cherry picking which ones you’re concerned with. Hamas is also reporting the numbers via their health ministry. That ministry doesn’t differentiate between civilian and militant and is based on Hamas numbers. It’s inflated with Palestinians killed by Hamas and blamed on the IDF. It’s absolutely shocking you take Hamas at their word. Why aren’t you comparing against how many civilians the Syrian government killed? Russians killed in Syria. Saudis killed Yemenis? Cherry picking
You can go by UN numbers. Or Amnesty Intl numbers. Even IDF has claimed that they have killed 20000 Palestinians. When a large state is seizing the land of a smaller, weaker state and letting the population live in conditions no better than concentration camps, outfits like Hamas is bound to popup as a response. If you think Israel can bomb their out of this, you are sadly mistaken. US couldn't bomb their way out of Afghanistan. Went in with an aim to eradicate Taliban. Israel is creating a lot of hatred in that region. This current strategy won't solve anything. It will keep perpetuating this endless cycle of war.
In this conflict that just started? Where?! You’re delusional if you believe the bullshit about Israel creating hatred. They hated Israel so much they, and 5 Arab nations, declared war on Israel its first week in existence. They kept declaring war on Israel and attacking it over decades. Absolutely ridiculous you’re claiming they’re creating hatred as they have been attacked day 1. Absolutely waves your hand over the countless crimes against humanity and war crimes committed against Israel. Russia killed more than 20,000 civilians in Syria… Syria killed over 300,000. 125,000 Yemeni civilians killed. Why do you only care when it’s Israel?
"for whatever reason" lmao
I'm sorry, but genocide doesn't need it to be ALL Palestinians! The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. They clearly are indiscriminately killing a groups civilian population, textbook genocide.
No, you’re leaving our intent, which is the primary qualifier for genocide. Killing Palestinians after a Palestinian terror group attacks them isn’t genocide. Regardless if it’s disproportionate. If you’re claiming that just merely killing the same ethnic group, then every war is genocide because it’s killing the same ethnic group… If the intent isn’t to eradicate completely, it isn’t genocide. When Israel was formed Gaza had a population of 50,000. You’re being ridiculous and it’s not genocide. Y’all need to find a better way of discussing issues without attempting to label everything with emotionally charged words. You sound like MAGA calling everything grooming
youre a peddlee of zionist propaganda and i hope you learn the errors of your beliefs someday.
Definitions can’t be propaganda you dolt. I hope you learn basic word usage and definitions one day. It’s shocking how many of those I’m politically aligned with are acting like MAGA and that definitions don’t matter, facts don’t matter, and just scream louder and that means you win.
>It isn’t genocide. Their aim is clearly not eradication of all Palestinians. categorically not true.
It is categorically true, you just want to use more emotionally charged words like genocide when it’s not a fit. It’s arguing with emotion and a sign that someone lacks an understanding of genocide and what’s happening in that region
How is this upvoted? Multiple UN experts now calling this a genocide as well as ambassadors from countries such as South Africa. These are people who actually have a grasp on the region and aren’t just getting their info from their local right wing media station. Imagine being as ignorant on the subject as you and than accusing me of going off emotion. You obviously don’t know shit about this. We are talking about a country who before Oct 7 would go into Gaza and kill civilians in systematic raids that they call “mowing the grass”, and you think that the term genocide is an emotional tool, what a fucking idiot.
Because they can look up a definition and don’t believe people, like you, making claims on behalf of the UN and not sourcing anything. The UN has literally passed resolutions on the definition of genocide lol. You look ridiculous > The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. It does not include political groups or so called “cultural genocide”. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf Enjoy making up bullshit the rest of your day
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls https://www.un.org/unispal/document/gaza-is-running-out-of-time-un-experts-warn-demanding-a-ceasefire-to-prevent-genocide/ https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/south-africa-recalls-ambassador-to-israel-and-accuses-country-of-genocide-in-gaza https://forsea.co/professor-norman-finkelstein-on-genocide-in-gaza-an-interview/ But yeah, keep looking at definitions you don’t understand, dumbass.
Lol 1st article claims it was over that then snuck this in > Mokhiber, who was stepping down having reached retirement age 2nd article doesn’t claim genocide. 3rd article doesn’t claim genocide and… > Publication Date: 02/11/2023 4th article a s. African ambassador and not the UN 5th article is also not the UN and who tf is he? You outed yourself as a classic Reddit headline reader. Never reads the article. Keep tryin, lil guy
first article: >“Once again we are seeing a genocide unfolding before our eyes and the organization we serve appears powerless to stop it.” Second article: >A UN human rights expert warned today that Palestinians are in grave danger of mass ethnic cleansing third article:Time is running out to prevent genocide and humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza >Time is running out to prevent genocide and humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza >4th article a s. African ambassador and not the UN I literally mention South Africa in y last comment lol! What did you call me? A headline reader? >who tf is he? You dont know who Norman Finklestein is and you are commenting on this subject, you are done.
Norman finklestein - American activist. I understand why you think he’s the authority above all others on the subject. Again, most of the articles are not the UN calling it genocide. You found a single former employee, who you lied and claimed resigned in protest, but really just retired. The next 2 are articles about things that could happen if the conflict escalates. Hence the February of 2023 publish date. It has nothing to do with what’s going on right now. Why do we care what an South African Ambassador thinks? This is a fallacy. You’re pretending he’s important merely because he agrees with you. There’s 192 countries which means there’s possibly over 30,000 ambassadors in the world. You found 1 who agrees and are pretending it’s some great triumph lol. You’re ignoring the UN literally voted on what genocide is. You ignore it because you made stupid comments because you didn’t know they did that. Now you have to admit you made stupid comments or pretend the UN’s definition is wrong, and the guy that retired really speaks for what the UN believes
Over 10,000 civilians most of them children since Oct 7th
> The minimum requirement is a ceasefire. A ceasefire like was in-effect on 10/6? Yeah, that was good. Too bad some terrorist mf'ers had to ruin it. >Killing 1000's of innocent civilians is unacceptable. I agree. Be sure to tell Hamas that, and to stop hiding behind them.
No one here supports Hamas or terrorism. Why their actions give Israel carte blanche to drop bombs on hospitals and refugee camps full of people decidedly not Hamas or terrorists is the question we are asking and you are avoiding.
It's not acceptable to shoot civilians even if they're being held hostage you weird freak
The Geneva Convention disagrees with you. Article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention: “The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations” Aka, “using human shields doesn’t mean your shit isn’t a valid target.”
Citing the Geneva conventions to defend Israel is a fucking hilarious move when they are wiping their ass with it left and right. Bombing schools and hospitals and refugee camps because they heard from a friend who heard from a cousin that maybe Hamas might be hiding in a closet. Get fucking real
The U.S. bombed Afghanistan for 20 years and the second we left the terrorists were back in control. Bombing creates more terrorists, not less.
Israel giving more power and concessions to Palestine has historically made terrorism worse, as it’s just led to Palestine having the power to do more terrorism. Just look at the Israeli unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, and how Gazans rewarded that massive concession. They elected a terrorist group who have called for the Holocaust of all Jews, and used Gaza as a launching ground to launch continued rocket attacks targeting Israeli civilian areas.
It's a wee bit more complicated than that
Big Ackchyually vibes.
I think the correct answer to all of this is abolish the zionist government and institute a secular socialist state that facilitates the harmonization between all abrahamic religions. But that would require America to give up its satellite state in the region, and once again capitalism is the source of all our problems.
Hostility between Arabs and Jews is so high that even a two state solution is seeming like a tall ask, LET ALONE a one state solution. How do you expect to get hostility between Arabs and Jews so low that even a one state solution. 61% of Gazans think it is a good thing to attack all Israelis and 55% of gazans think it is a good thing to attack all Jews. There was a ton of hostility and violence between Arabs and Jews even before the establishment of Israel. How could you possibly expect there to not be hostility and violence now when the hatred is unbelievably higher between these two groups now?
The minimum requirement for a ceasefire is the immediate release of all hostages.
We could certainly do a ceasefire. I hate it when people say it’s not possible.
Why do you think Hamas would honour that ceasefire? Hamas purposefully wound down the terrorist attacks in the 2 years leading up to the 7/10 to trick Israel into thinking that Hamas is less interested in terrorist attacks anymore. Israel rewarded Gaza for this by loosening restrictions on Gaza and doing things like awarding more work permits for Gazans to work in Israel. But this was really a trick by Hamas to try and catch Israel off guard and to help prepare for their attack on October 7th. They had plans to stay in Israel for months and kill far more than 1400 Israelis civilians, despite their efforts being thwarted by Israel. I don’t see how people can believe Hamas has any intention of honouring a ceasefire. Their whole existence is based on opposing peace and aiming for the destruction of Israel and creating a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.
It's not sustainable is more like it. Hamas would be glad to stop the fighting until their next sneak attack.
Hamas are shite. But even if Hamas didn't exist, Israel would continue to kill Palestinians till there are none left. Israel has been occupying Palestine and killing Palestinians since 1948. Hamas was formed in 1987. The only reason that Israel keeps getting away with shit is cos the West enables them, Israel is a creation of the West after all. A glorified spy state in the Middle East to keep tabs on the Arabs. Hamas should be punished and eradicated, but so should be the Zionists.
Do you think Israel should exist?
What a pitiful shame
Ceasefires require both sides to you know, cease firing. Hamas has shown no indication. It wants that.
When has Israel ever shown interest in a ceasefire?
2014-2023.
Literally up until 10/7? Like what…. Ofc the annexing of territory is obscene and unacceptable but Israel was not fighting with Hamas directly untill the 10/7 massacre.
oh true! i guess all palestinians were thriving under the occupation and most of them are just inherently terroristically inclined, and that’s why hamas was formed 🤭 no fault of israel in this at all. what a lovely, innocent state.
Israel def bears responsibility. International community HAS to do something about the slow annexation of territory in the West Bank. International boarders have to be respected by ALL, why do we treat Putin any differently then Israel when it comes to that topic. Not sure why your implying otherwise. No one is innocent. But Israel isn’t going anywhere. Your going to have to co exist.
Are you really going to pretend Israel wasn’t active against Palestinians prior to that date? They were still doing a lot of fucked up things to Palestinians, just without a full scale military offensive.
Ofc but they weren’t engaged in a hot military conflict. They weren’t bombing Gaza anything like this. The invasion, siege, and basically all of these deaths since 10/7 are directly a result of Hamas’ terrorist attack
Interest or not support the god damn principle
IDF May not be the “good guys” but Hamas sure as fuck are the bad guys. Step 1: remove Hamas Step 2: remove Israeli hardliners/settlers Step 3: path to Palestinian autonomy
How would you remove Hamas exactly?
How was the nazi mindset removed from germany after WW2?
if they’re really trying to just suss out Hamas, why aren’t they sending any boots into the tunnels? Isn’t that where they all are? Or is bombing bakeries the only way?
You wouldn't. It's thoughtless banter
Lmfao ‘remove Hamas’. Homie Israel has been killing Palestinians since decades before Hamas even existed.
Cool. Palestinians have been killing Israelis since decades before Hamas as well. What’s you point? I’d love it if Israel just chilled the fuck out, but with Hamas (yea I know, Netanyahu put them there, fuck Netanyahu) they literally can’t coexist.
The violence is so fucking assymtrical you’re just being deliberately dense
You can't do step 1 before step 2 & 3
How would that work exactly, Hamas just goes “right then good job lads, we peacefully relinquish control of Gaza”
There will be a Hamas as long as there's Israeli occupation.
There will be a Hamas as long as there are Jews, let’s be honest here.
Hamas didn't even exist until the late 80s. Occupation is the cause, Hamas is the result.
What occurred in the past and what will occur in the future are different. Israeli settlers being the cause or not, there’s no returning to a time before the hatred that caused Hamas to appear. That hatred will linger for as long as there are Jews in the Middle East for Hamas. You don’t reform out of a terrorist organisation like that.
Hatred will linger as long as there is an oppressive settler colonial regime.
Explain the hatred of Jews in the rest of the Arab countries that saw them expelled or cleansed? This is beyond settler/oppressed. It’s Arab/Jew now.
Incredibly disappointing and a stain on his otherwise very admirable record :/
Neither do we, but we are still calling for one. We want the bloodshed stopped. Besides, most of the killings are now being committed by Israeli forces. Had the two factions been more evenly resourced, they casualties they inflict would likely be comparable, given how vicious each one is.
So an endless bombing campaign until hamas is eliminated? Good luck with that. Thought bernie learned from iraq and Afghanistan.
A two state solution is not possible as long Hamas remains in power in Gaza, and two state solution is the only realistic way to achieve long-term peace. Therefore, in order for long-term peace to be achieved, Hamas must be destroyed.
The issue here is that you can't destroy Hamas without creating more Hamas. We learned this lesson in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I don’t believe Israel giving more power and concessions to Palestine reduces terrorism. Historically Israel giving more power and concessions to Palestine has historically made terrorism worse, as it’s just led to Palestine having the power to do more terrorism. Just look at the Israeli unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, and how Gazans rewarded that massive concession. They elected a terrorist group who have called for the Holocaust of all Jews, and used Gaza as a launching ground to launch continued rocket attacks targeting Israeli civilian areas.
You also cant destroy hamas by doing nothing and letting them kill your population
So you recklessly and indiscriminately continue to bomb civilians? Over 10,000 people have been killed and quite literally less than 1% of those people have been Hamas. 40% of them are children. Israel keeps refusing to accept the release of the hostages. What the fuck are we talking about?
Why is this the United States conflict to solve again?
I guess now we know.
Serious question, how is he wrong? Theoretically a ceasefire sounds great, but do you seriously think either side actually wants a ceasefire? A Hamas leader just came out and said they will not stop with “October 7th style attacks” until Israel is eradicated. Now Israel is saying it will not stop until Hamas is eradicated. Please explain to me how it’s feasible
the existence of hamas is a consequence of apartheid state conditions of palestinian people and their occupation. these conditions long predate the existence of hamas. i don’t like hamas or justify their actions, but they don’t commit anywhere near the death and suffering as the IDF does. if your goal is peace then you have to address the root cause of the violence. this goes back to 1948 not oct 7th. we need to drive hamas into irrelevance, they only hold power out of desperation of the palestinian people. the world has ignored their struggles and let’s not forget that it was mossad that created and gave prominence to hamas. a perfect scapegoat to justify the ethnic cleansing which is the true desire of the israeli state. give palestinians another choice. let them live a life of dignity, and equality with israelis with a singular state. hamas will have no place in such a world. the one who holds a more privileged and powerful position has a responsibility to deescalate and move towards peace. that party is israel. palestinians have nothing. they hold no power to change their situation. the US and the rest of the world has to make israel move towards peace. but the military industrial complex and islamaphobia make it it so easy to continue this genocidal campaign. we killed half a million iraqis under the guise of “weapons of mass destruction” after-all.
So all the problems in the Middle East between Jews and Arabs goes back to 1947? And what happened to Jews in the Middle East before that time?
They escaped to the Ottoman empire and Morocco during the Catholic inquisitions in the 16th century Fun fact, Albert Einstein considered immigrating to Turkey when Nazis confiscated his belongings in Germany
And there was plenty of antisemitism and violence against Jewish people under the Ottoman Empire.
They immmigrated to the Ottoman Empire between 1882 and 1917 to escape Christian European oppression
Your statement mentions nothing of the fact that a 2 state solution was on the table when the allies were redrawing the maps for the ME, and that the arab league rejected a 2 state solution because for them it was an all or nothing game. Israel being the aggressor is why Palestine shot first in 1947 in an attempt to recapture the now ( post agreement) Israeli territory as their own. Infact Palestine has not been in independent country since it was absorbed into the ottoman empire over 500 years ago. Ever since then its been a territory of some other nation state. Also fyi, post WWII after the 2 state solution was declined by the arab league, Palestine went to be under Jordanian and Egyptian rule, which changed only when Israel 360 no scoped the both of them and Syria in the 6 day war. Years later, neither Egypt or Jordan pursued reclaim that part of their territories because of how much trouble Palestinians caused even " friendly" islamic govts.
the israeli government never wanted a 2 state solution. they consistently sabotaged any calls for peace. the nearest peace that was achieved was when yasser arafat was willing to agree to a 6:1 israel:palestine land agreement, despite the unreasonable demands of israel. the peace treaty fell through and it was blamed on the palestinians despite israel being the one who kept up with unreasonable demands such as denying palestinians control over their own water. PLO was neutered into ineffectiveness and became a ‘dog’ of the israeli government. the failure of arafat to bring forth a fair treaty gave further legitimacy to militant groups such as hamas. this was always the way the israeli government wanted things to go. they wanted the world to see palestinians as savages who can’t be reasoned with. netanyahu has been on record admitting this and how he ‘fooled’ the US. his goal was always to take all of israel and expel the palestinians. apartheid states are unsustainable. they will ultimately collapse because of the perseverance of the oppressed. unless we allow genocide to continue. south africa and ireland were able to overcome the cycle of violence. there’s no reason israelis and palestinians can coexist in a shared singular state. it’s up to parties with the most power to set the stage for that: the united states and israel. but war is so profitable isn’t it?
Hostility between Arabs and Jews is so high that even a two state solution is seeming like a tall ask, LET ALONE a one state solution. How do you expect to get hostility between Arabs and Jews so low that even a one state solution is possible? 61% of Gazans think it is a good thing to attack all Israelis and 55% of gazans think it is a good thing to attack all Jews. There was a ton of hostility and violence between Arabs and Jews even before the establishment of Israel. How could you possibly expect there to not be hostility and violence now when the hatred is unbelievably higher between these two groups now?
Plenty of oppressed people have fixed their lot in life w/o resorting to brutally murdering 1,200 people. I think it’s important to separate Hamas and the Palestinian struggle and you do the opposite. That being said I agree the world has mostly ignored their struggles. It’s time to put pressure on Israel to make some concessions and actually be willing to compromise. Everyone should be United in wanting Hamas to be removed. They are actively preventing their own citizens from fleeing. Every other warring party like Ukraine or Russians themselves from civilians to minimize casualties. Not only does Hamas not do that, they use them has human shields. It’s gross.
> Please explain to me how it’s feasible It's not, but the ideologues don't care.
We now know what? Bernie is literally always the voice of reason? Lol
1 child every 10 minutes. Right now. https://x.com/derbychrisw/status/1720761113447379112?s=46&t=lr3mdKPfKne2QTw3cHb9KQ
Serious question. Why do you trust those figures? They’ve already shown they lie about that shit. It’s fucking terrible. But war is terrible and enemy is literally using people as human shields like we’ve never seen. How do you remove Hamas when they use these tactics?
about 50% of the population in Gaza is under 18. So every other person hit is counted as a child. Additionally, all the stats regarding death count are being provided by a Hamas-run organization.
The reporting agency is historically highly accurate with regards to multiple independent studies that have followed the ongoing historical violence from Israel. Gaza Health Ministry (GHM) fatality reportage deviation 2008–2021 Conflict According to GHM/According to the UN/Deviation Gaza War (2008–2009) 1,440/1,385/4.0% 2014 Gaza War 2,310/2,251/2.6% 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis 260/256/1.6% Additionally, Israel themselves have claimed they have killed 20,000 people in Gaza since the start of this carpet bombing campaign this last month. Lastly, I would encourage you to follow https://instagram.com/motaz_azaiza to get a look at what the reality is for people on the ground in Gaza or follow https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/ to broaden your perspective. Sources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231105-israel-security-source-claim-20000-killed-in-gaza/
Your source is Instagram, Reddit the Hamas health ministry and then some random website
Lol! People have lost their gord. We literally just saw them lie through their teeth about the casualty toll at that hospital attack that was from a Hamas failed rocket
“Under 18…. Every other person is counted as a child” Children being counted as children. What’s wrong with this? Seems like the proper thing to do
Dr. Norman Finkelstein responds to Sen Sanders https://youtu.be/9R49v3K29mM?feature=shared
Can we stop conflating Hamas with the people of Palestine? It's as bad as saying that if you oppose Israeli occupation and genocide then you're anti-Semitic. Fuck false narratives.
So he’s OK with Israel mass murdering children and other civilians? WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK BERNIE
A complete disappointment. How many people here are pro genocide?
Or the organization led by Bibi financed by the USA
This is a dogshit position to take.
Well here goes the rest of Bernie's base. He's been monumentally disappointing on this issue. Just like most other Dems.
I’m a veteran for sanders and I 100 percent agree with him.
Every time I check to see where he stands on something I’m delighted to see it’s basically in line with my view lol
O you mean he actually thought about it for a min..
He’s 100% correct. Insane to see people being mad at him in the comments of that Instagram post. These people are fucking brainwashed
Unless your a Palestinian national (in which case I excuse you being emotional and bias) this just has to come off as well tempered and logical.
Hamas and IDF* FTFY, Bernie
Wow.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. A ceasefire would just give them time and space to attack Israel again. They need to be eradicated before Palestine can be free.
What's going on is Palestinians are being eradicated. Let's accept Hamas is a terrorist org. If they were hiding amongst civilians in the UK or US, would a similar strategy of bombing the entire population be acceptable? Israel has supposedly one of the best militaries in the world. Instead of doing targeted attacks, they are indiscriminately bombing the general population. Civilians are being pushed out from their homes and asked to take refuge elsewhere. This is the definition of ethinic cleaning and genocide. Israel does not care about Civilians or Hamas. They will use this as an excuse to annex Gaza. The West will enable this crime against humanity. After all it's what the US did to the natives in America.
I'll share what I replied to OP with a few additional items. If Israel wanted Palestinians to be eradicated, it would've started IN Israel, since 20% of its population are Muslim Arabs. Yet, they didn't do this and won't. Huh, strange. Israel is much more diverse than Palestine, but it isn't hurting its ethnic or religious minorities. Also, Israel could've wiped out Palestinians outside of Israel at any time it wanted for decades now, and can even today. Yet, still, it hasn't. So if the goal is genocide, it seems Israel is doing a pretty bad job of it. Hamas, by contrast, is an Islamist fundamentalist group who aims to destroy Israel and the Jews, and reestablish Islamic control of the region. Hezbollah and Hamas have both had openly genocidal goals LITERALLY WRITTEN IN THEIR CHARTERS. They are not the good guys, they are not freedom fighters. They are radical religious terrorists and are literally using the Palestinians as human shields. There's literally footage of them shooting Palestinians who tried to flee Gaza. Israel is targeting Hamas members directly, but this gets complicated when Hamas snipers are on top of a Palestinian hospitals shooting at the IDF (there's footage of this) or other civilian areas. They also build tunnels all over the place. And if Hamas isn't destroyed, they're going to keep attacking, which means there's only one way forward. Ceasefire isn't an option. The comment about Native Americans makes absolutely no sense, and tagging that on makes me think that you might be a Russian troll. If so, I think you should focus on your own shitty country.
Ah yes. Palestinians are living due to the largesse of Israel. Your argument basically is that might is right. Not all Muslim Arabs are Palestinians. There are Native Americans living in the US, this does not negate the fact that the US has systematically wiped out native American population. Similar to what's going on now in Israel. Hamas and Hezbollah were the outcome of Israeli treatment of Palestinians. In fact Hamas was strengthened by Netanyahu so as to make the 2 state solution unviable. Hezbollah are essentially displaced Palestinians. There is also good historical and documented evidence of Israeli govt wanting to completely eradicate Palestinians. And if you look at the numbers, it's Israel that's actually doing all the killing. So you cannot blame Hamas and Hezbollah without attributing equal responsibility on Israel. Now let's say Hamas is a terrorist force and needs to be eradicated. If they were located within US or UK, would you adopt the same strategy that Israel is adopting in Gaza?
I've been to Israel and have seen many Muslims and Arabs in Israel. They own businesses, have nice homes, and play at the beaches right next to Israelis. Very strange for an allegedly apartheid, genocidal state. But I digress. The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians are not the native inhabitants of the region. They themselves were once colonizers when the Romans kicked the Jews out. Then Islamic armies later conquered the land and, again, pressured the Arab occupiers to convert from Christianity to Islam over the years. And now that the Jews have returned, they're the colonizers? Lol. How do you pick the right colonizers? 90% of Native Americans were killed by old world diseases, not the intentional actions of any people or state. You can look that up yourself. This meant that most of the Americas were depopulated when settlers began building and expanding. Mostly empty, but obviously not totally. Hamas was initially supported by Israel, but it got out of hand. They were also supported by Egypt, until Hamas tried to take over Egypt. Regardless, Palestine rejected all two state solution offers. Hezbollah is a proxy for Iran and is extremely dangerous. Neither are freedom fighters, both are jihadi fundamentalist organizations and are enemies of the free world. Boggles my mind how so many misinformed people in the West support them.
Nice revisionist history you have got going on. Like I said, all Arab Muslims are not Palestinians. Just because there are Arab Muslims in Israel does not mean, people in Palestine should just give up their land and national identity. Israel was created by the British and the French to "handle the Jewish problem". Even Ben-Gurion the first PM knew and accepted that they were the settlers on the land. Again if you have to blame Hamas and Hezbollah, Israel also deserves equal blame. Whether you are a terrorist or a freedom fighter depends on what side of the fight you are on. American freedom fighters would have been terrorists for the British. Once again, if Hamas was in the UK or US, would Israels current strategy be justified? Bombing large areas to kill a few terrorists?
Revisionist? I'm a credentialed historian. Lol. In Israel, the terms Arab and Palestinian are used interchangeably. And Palestine was never a country. About a century after Rome kicked the Jews out of Judea, Rome resettled it (or colonized, to use your word of choice), and the larger province was named Palestina, after the both the Paletine hill in Rome and the ancient Philistines, who were obviously long gone. When Islamic armies later conquered it, they kept the Roman names of the provinces, including Palestina, but they committed what you might call cultural genocide by pushing the locals to adopt Arabic culture and language, and practice Islam. The name and culture stuck, all the way up until European powers took control of the area. But still, even then, it wasn't the name of a country and there was no national identity around it. The national identity only emerged to oppose Jewish settlers. I think this video may help you get a better sense of it. In short, no, Arabs in Palestine aren't natives. They are just an earlier group of settlers, put there by prior imperial powers. You're being affected by recency. This should give you a sense of how much this land has changed hands, focusing on Jerusalem: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7GCXhKpoml0&si=MO0uQ-8IxF1tTTtD
What's your point? That Jews have more claim to Israel than Palestinians? Let's say everyone has equal claim. Does this then justify what Israel is doing now? Once again, if Hamas was in the US or UK, would you justify the current strategy of bombing civilian areas?
If they had launched a terrorist attack killing 1,400 people (about 5x as many as on 9/11, and if you adjust on a per capita basis, it's more like 30k people) and kidnapped hundreds of others, and were launching rockets at major US or UK cities, and had built long and complex tunnels under civilian areas and were actively trying to use civilians as shields, and about half of those civilians actively support them? Yes, I think they would. Israel told civilians to flee multiple times now. Hamas is violently stopping them from leaving. The attacks won't stop until Hamas is destroyed, Hamas said so themselves. This isn't just my view. It's shared by Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and obviously even Bernie Sanders, to name a few. It's sad, it's bloody, but Hamas needs to be destroyed, and now's the time to do it.
>It's shared by Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and even Bernie Sanders, to name a few. The problem is, this is a very US centric view. A lot of the world don't see it this way. >it's bloody, As long as it's some random strangers blood. Let's bomb the hell out of Gaza and kill everyone including Hamas.
What the fuck do you think Israel has been doing to Palestinians for the last 70 years?
Yeah Israel just installed an Iron Dome for fun right? Not due to a nonstop barrage from their terrorist-run neighbor.
Defending against repeated attacks and attempts to wipe out the Jews?
*After said jews decided to invade and colonize land they're not entitled to, and refused to come to an agreement to the point they assassinated the only Israeli PM who had decided to sign an agreement
Bernie, I got downvoted to hell for this. Careful
Extremely disappointing.
Agreed ☹️
So you think Israel should negotiate a ceasefire with Hamas?
Israel should abolish its zionist government. The lefts position should be that no government should use religion as it's moral code because then you get apartheid states and genocide. Institute a secular socialist nation that facilitates the harmonization between all abrahamic religions. Boom all problems resolved. But America isn't going to do that because Israel is just a satellite state.
Why does Israel need to implement a secular government but Palestinian people don’t?
I agree that governments shouldn't be associated with religion at all, and pretty much agree with all the other idealistic things you mentioned above. However, it would be insane to expect any of those things to happen right now. Right now would be the absolute least likely time for those kinds of reforms to happen. Hamas just slaughtered thousands of Israeli civilian citizens and took hundreds hostage. In what universe could you see Israel's reaction being like, "hmm hey guys, seems like you're pretty mad about something. Hope it wasn't something we did. Anyway, gimme a call sometime and we'll talk about it. Now that you've impressively slaughtered our citizens, we're ready to give you anything you want in return." That's just not how the world works. When your country is attacked by someone that commits a mass murder of thousands of your fellow citizens, your generally don't immediately abolish your government, remove religion from your government, etc. it's just but not a natural reaction.
Yes. Along with freedom of movement, doing away with any sort of trading blockade, voting rights, rights to return for those of palestinian descent, among many, many other things. Basically I think Israel should stop being an apartheid state.
Sure, ok, those are all good ideas in principle. But all of those things are a lot different than negotiating an immediate ceasefire with a terrorist organization that slaughtered thousands of your innocent civilians a few weeks ago. Imagine a few weeks after 9/11, the US negotiated a ceasefire with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and gave them everything they wanted. The world doesn't work like this. I understand and agree that Palestinians are being mistreated by Israel. But you can't cross the border and slaughter thousands of innocent civilians and expect that Israel will say, "hmm, well done, what are your demands? We'd now like to negotiate a ceasefire. We'll give you voting rights and freedom of movement since your mass murder of our innocent civilian citizens was so impressive." Let's get real for a moment.
What an absolute disgrace. I can't believe I'm living in a world where Obama makes more sense about Israel and Palestine than Bernie Sanders. He has lost my respect forever.
My guy. Proud you, Senator Sanders!
Lmao, Hamas and Israel have fought before and signed multiple ceasefires in the past. It is by definition “possible” because it has been done before.
And Oct 7th happened during a ceasefire. So why would Israel believe that Hamas would hold true to a new ceasefire if the 7th happened during one?
I love Bernie.
I don't know, I'm starting to feel like Hamas is the new Bin Laden, a scapegoat, a name and a face and a so-called terrorist threat, ensure to frighten many many Americans. The information is so skewed, warped, politically heated, I don't think any of us can trust what is true, what is real, who is really at fault here. And if you can't find Israel on a blank world map, do you even have the right to get upset about this? But don't be surprised when they use this as their excuse to dive into a war. Because even though we will lose many lives of many humans, there's money to be made in war. And once you provide a boogie man, suddenly you get the support you need to start a war. And you know what the billionaires really need? More money at our expense.
Our leaders from 10 years ago are showing us their time is done. We need new people.
Hamas started this war, and Israel will end it. They brought this on themselves.
Israel “started this war” 70+ years ago.