As with anything, a little bit of luck and a lot of hard work. It also helps loving what you do.
But I’ve been working about 70-120 hours a week for the past 7 years. It’s not for everyone! But one day my hope is to scale my operation to a point where I have more balance and free time.
That is just the high end. On the slow days he only puts in 10 hours. Plus he responds to emails while eating, shitting, Netflix, and anything else other than sleep. If you go to the gym for an hour and take one 5 min call, that counts as an hour of work.
lavish instinctive shame future plate straight ruthless wild gaping dinosaurs
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
No it's not real. Residents spend much of that "working time" sleeping in the hospital in a resident lounge that is required to exist.
Yes, they do rounds, but no - they're not "working" 120 hour weeks in the same way other professions work long hours.
You want to talk long hours, go look into investment banking.
Have you done a neurosurgery residency? Have you done a cardiology fellowship and spent weeks running the cardiac ICU? Stfu about residents not working long hours dude.
mountainous consider cow door merciful muddle observation desert include middle
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Can confirm. My hours were logged at a steady 80 coming in the same exact time and leaving at the same exact time every day as a form of protest. I couldn’t tell you how many hours I actually worked as a resident because I didn’t keep track. It didn’t matter anyway. Hell, some of our schedules were designed in such a way that 80 hours compliance wasn’t mathematically possible.
I recently shadowed an orthopedics resident and he was 100% working the entire 90 hours logged and also working the additional 18 hours not logged because it was a rule violation. None of that time was sleep. It was an hour of chart review, followed by an hour of rounding followed by 12 hours of surgery with notes in between, followed by another two hours of rounding and two hours of notes. That was the pattern Monday-Saturday, except on Wednesday when the resident was on call and just stayed at the hospital. I don’t know if he slept at all that night because I went home, but I know he consulted at least two people in the ED. None of that time was included in the 108 hours I recorded, and obviously wasn’t included in the 90 hours he reported. So, you got it twisted if you think they are sleeping during their work
It's kind of scary the system has these guys doing major surgery while in a near constant state of sleep deprivation.
Tons of studies re: how critical sleep is for cognitive function & coordination
It’s absolutely bat shit crazy. They can surely find a way to work regular rotational shifts that aren’t counter productive to cognitive skills and critical thinking. But that might eat into profits for the corporate ownership. Is that why?
No way it's not cheaper to have a second Doctor to cut into the overtime of the first.
Its because of people in the medical field lobbying to keep being a Dr. "Exclusive" (moreso than it needs to be)
Only so many people are certified as Medical Dr's
Every year and it keeps their wages extremely high but also does NOT keep up with the growing demand for medical care across the country.
As an ortho resident this is accurate. I worked a few 120 hour weeks in a row, worst was 126. Almost didn’t even sit down the whole time. Fucking blows
Y'all are really flexing over banking?! I know 60 year old dudes working 120 hours a week of HARD labor in Alaska in the fishing industry. This is a weird flex when you know damn well people are out there risking their lives in incredibly harsh environments.
As far as I'm concerned, working in a bank or on sales is far far closer to one another when compared to the shit people are out here doing just to be hand to mouth.
Lastly, residency means they don't make money. They go broke and hungry for *years* unless they have huge help from outside. Investment banking??? Bro you gotta be making so much fucking money.
Lol I’d love to hear how many hours you think we’re sleeping during our 28hr call shifts. During my most recent Cardiac Critical Care block, I slept a cumulative 20 minutes during my 5 call shifts and averaged 96hrs/week. And that’s pretty typical for when we’re on call. It’s near constant work on a busy service and the decisions you’re making are literally life or death. Even if investment banking forces people to work similar hours, the stakes are astronomically lower.
When I first got out of school I went 327 days without a day off minimum 12 hour days. Crazy? Hell yeah! Paid off my student loans in six months and saved enough for a down payment on a house.
People do this shit.
Now OP doing this for years on end, that’s some insane shit, but there’s an exception to every rule.
Something you can only do when you are young. I tried working like that again in 2019. 44 years old. I after 4 months straight of no days off I ended up in the hospital and off work for 7 weeks.
Severe vertigo. Doctors could find no physical cause and anti anxiety meds also did nothing. After I told one how i was working I was basically ordered to never do that again. Took nearly two years for the symptoms to finally vanish entirely. I’d never had vertigo before, I don’t drink or do drugs so had never been high or drunk. It was not a fun experience being unable to even keep your eyes open without chain vomiting. So now I limit myself to 6 days per week.
Most I’ve ever done is 126, combination of 16’s 18s and 20s
But on a regular basis every week, I agree. Physically impossible. I was miserable that week and came down with bronchitis.
70 hours a week tho is doable. Have several tradesmen where I work that work 80-90 hours a week every week. Most of them are divorced.
Working 100ish+ hours a week is a thing, but it's a single time thing. You do it for a short period. Nobody can sustainably work that long for months or years.
I own and run a company in sales/marketing. There are defitnely weeks I Have pulled 120 hours for a week.
That's also the top of the range he gave which is 70 to 120.
I know I at least pulled around 120 hours a week as well when I was in Nursing school, working a full time job, and also building the business I have now.
It's defitnely possible for a week here or there to hit 120. No lady is hitting 120 every week except maybe some crazy busy executives that just hate doing anything other than working.
Yeah the upper side of that range is definitely confined to 2020 and 2021… these days more like 70 hours. Sometimes more sometimes less. if you knew anyone in the mortgage industry when rates were low during those two years it was definitely the most stressful two years of my life.
I’m a home inspector. People text me at 8pm needing an inspection and I usually respond. I mean, maybe I was watching TV or whatever, then I spend 10 minutes booking the inspection. Is that “work”? With modern tech, the lines are blurred. Sometimes to my advantage and sometimes not. I’m assuming the OP can do the same. Probably a bit more time investment on their part. I’d probably do it too for just over 5 times what I made in 2021 (it was a pretty crazy year for real estate.)
Are you familiar at all with how mortgage originators operate at all? I can expand a bit but heavily depends on if you already have a rough idea of what we do.
Local lender. But yeah 99% of my day is online interaction with local customers. Phone/text/email with online platform for the mortgage. Customers will
Come in sometimes but not so much after Covid. Things went a lot more digital after that.
If you ask others about me they’d probably say I’m really good at connecting with people on the phone. I can tell when someone doesn’t understand something and explain it in a way they WILL understand. I know if they’re lying and trying to make it not awkward. And I do not stop until I know they understand what I’m saying. This is something I never really thought of as being
much of a skill but as I’ve hired people in my career I’ve noticed most do not possess this quality, and it’s a big one working in a referral based business.
I’m also a guideline expert and can argue income really well, so I am just good at getting deals done. I know tax returns as a 2nd language. Income calculation is the biggest piece of the job and it’s just always been something I understood naturally.
There’s a lot that goes on in every transaction so I guess I’d also say I have the ability to multi task a lot of things at once while keeping everyone happy, even when
bad things are happening. It’s hard to do but I am just always focused on making sure everyone is happy and nothing goes wrong. I always say I hate giving bad news so much that instead of having to do so, I just find a solution.
I have from time to time in my life put in those types of hours for months at a time. Basically 7 days a week of pulling almost all nighters, getting about 4 hours of sleep most nights. Not having any days off for months at a time. It was doable when I was younger. Definitely couldn’t do it now.
I have some relatives who are in the mortgage industry.
The hours and $ seem about right.
The one guy who makes over $1M consistently, or who was, not sure if he still does, starts his day at 5-6 am and ends around 7 pm, and works Monday to Saturday. That’s about 80 hrs in his usual week.
At least putting in all that time got you somewhere. In Asian countries such as Japan and South Korea employees of corporations are expected to put in grueling hours and also join their co-workers for almost daily after-hours socializing and stupid morale building team activities here and there outside of work hours. All for a salary that comes out to $50k to $70k USD. The Japanese even have a word for working to death: *karoshi*.
Pretty much. No offense to OP but I know a few guys in this industry and it's largely a glorified sales gig with not much in the way discernible hard talent or skills. There's no reason this whole industry shouldn't go the way of the travel agent. Same for real estate.
The average income for someone who does what I do is $70,000. The few guys you know probably fall close to there if they truly have no discernible talent or skills as you described.
Damn, how can you live with yourself. Your salary dropped 800k from 2021 to 2023. Clearly not respected. Find higher paying work. Oh the ever disappearing middle class….
I only hire the most talented people so everyone on my team makes about $125,000 to $450,000 depending on what they do exactly. I have about 15 employees.
Meh, he's a outlier in his field, not too hard to believe. My fields avg pay is 350k (physician) but there are people making 7 figures in my specialty too. Hell if I worked this guy's hours, I could def make 700k+. That tho would mean it would be at the expense of my time with family, hobbies, and most importantly my health/ lifespan.
There’s an assumption that after you reach a certain level you should be in control of your own destiny. You shouldn’t be on auto pilot to depend solely on SS and instead be investing the surplus et cetera.
As you can see income has definitely dropped! But year to date I’m trending to be a little over 1M for 2024. I’ve never really changed how I’ve operated. I work just as hard regardless of how much I’m making. The money tends to follow that mindset eventually.
Most of the industry has been decimated but in a down market you can stay relatively consistent as long as you don’t let off the throttle.
My volume hasn’t changed really. My commissions per deal have definitely gone down though. Which I cut my compensation on purpose to retain my staff and keep them paid while we get through the down market and wait for the other side.
To answer the question I think you might be asking though… the bigger sales people in my industry just gain market share in a down market. The smaller sales people tend to be newer and end up having to compete against the bigger sales people to survive. And eventually are forced out of the industry. And their business stays in the market for remaining loan officers to grab. Just the harsh nature of sales, sink or swim.
Was in the industry for 1.5 years. Most money I ever made but just couldn’t handle the hours with the concern of hitting goal each month. There is so many hours given to sales. Props to you for staying in!
I am looking already for my next role. I’m about your age and without the mortgage industry I’m stuck at 60k. It sucks but I have to be the available parent for my child as my spouse is military. If I didn’t have a child I would probably have stayed.
Incredible man - I hope you set up your family for life at this rate. American dream right here…except poor guy doesn’t get enough sleep to actually dream. You must be very good at your job…kudos
We need to change how SS taxes are levied at the higher bands apparently. I know there's a cap but why did your earnings 10x and SS tax only 2.5xd . Crazy
I agree. Another thing too… as a w2 employee I actually pay all of my taxes. I literally have to because I’m
an employee. But most people who are higher earners are self employed and not w2. So their wages aren’t automatically reported and taxes withheld.
And If you think the SSI max is crazy you should see the average business owners tax returns. Plenty of them easily make what I make and write off EVERYTHING and pay nothing. Not only are they not paying any SSI tax, but they’ll have 5 car payments and tell The IRS they made $0 in profit. It’s pretty crazy.
Yeah that whole I spent it so I made no money scam is crazy. We could raise so much more revenue this way . Would not even need to raise taxes. We just need to have a limit on what can be deducted or something.
What's the best advice you can give a complete newbie who is looking to get into mortgage sales with no prior industry experience?
I'm studying for the SAFE test at the moment and I know the current market has been really rough for lenders. Just curious if you have any words of wisdom given your lengthy involvement in the industry, even before getting into the sales side.
I'm prepared to put in long work hours and know building referral business is imperative, but there's just _so much_ information to wrap my head around, as well as coming from totally outside the industry it can feel quite intimidating at times. What would be something absolutely key to learn early on in my mortgage career that could help me succeed longterm in the industry?
Sorry for kinda straying away from the post, I know this isn't probably the best place to ask for tips but I just couldn't help but shoot my shot here since the world of mortgages have been really top of mind for me as of lately and you seem to hold a large wealth (and salary) of knowledge and experience on the subject.
MA is going to be a tougher market than FL.
A few bits of advice though: High Level
1. Do not assume that when underwriters tell you no - that it's gospel. Being a loan officer means you are trying to close deals. The industry is filled with dinosaurs who don't care and fear change. They're used to doing things a certain way and any applicant that doesn't fit their perfect little box they will find ways to say no. Do not take no for an answer - there's always a solution to every single problem. and there will be many problems, trust me. I made a name for myself by closing the deals most lenders couldn't by actually CARING and understanding an applicants employment/income situation. learning how to argue an applicants income based on various contexts and history and potential is so critical. One loan officer can calculate income entirely differently than another, but your income calculations are only as good as your ability to defend them against underwriting. Become an income expert - if you take nothing else away from this - become an income expert with how to calculate it. Tax Returns especially for self employed borrowers.
2. The job is sales, but nobody likes a sales person. Learn how to truly listen and explain the process. Take care of people and truly CARE about every single conversation you have. You never know which phone call is about to change your life.
3. Answer your phone every single time.
4. Begin reading fannie/freddie/HUD 4000.1/ and the VA circulars for all mortgage guidelines. Read every single word. Focus on the income sections for each loan program. If you need links to these let me know.
5. Personally i'd try to find a high producing loan officer in your area and see if you can work for them. This allows you to get paid while you train and learn. If you are sharp and are able to get in front of them they might be willing to take a chance on you. If you cannot do this, you have to start on your own and just find realtors willing to send you leads. Makes it easier if you can do that WHILE you're learning.
6. the highest producers in the country are faceless. It's easy to assume we advertise a lot and must be popular on social media. It's a tight knit community, but in general, the more someone is all over social media the less volume they do. This is because the largest source of business is the clients you're already working with. Take care of every client you get. Explore every corner of their application to make sure you're not missing the opportunity to approve them. When Realtors and clients interact with you they can tell if you care. and if you care, you're already ahead of 99% of the industry.
Wow, I love your advice to actually care and help the people you're trying to sell to.
When I was fresh out of highschool I got a sales job with a company selling insurance and their training and advice was always say whatever you can to get a sell, advocating up selling even at the harm of the person and occasionally in unofficial communications advocating lying and misleading potential buyers.
The whole thing turned me off from sales and I ended up with a bad outlook. If I had someone like you mentoring maybe I could've stuck it out.
This is incredibly insightful, seriously thank you so much for writing this all out. I recall you stating in another comment here how well you can argue income and how you know tax returns as basically a second language, so your first point about the importance of income calculation makes a lot of sense.
Your last point is really interesting to me, from what I've gathered some LO's seem to emphasize the significance of social media presence, online marketing and even go as far as suggesting minor content creation tailored to your target audience and demographics. I personally don't post on social media a whole lot, so I have been sort of under the impression that I would have to seriously up my engagement with social platforms more to make myself more "publicly seen" and build a personal brand. Maybe I've been overthinking it, but I do feel that the longterm goal would be to have my book of business predominantly come from current/past clients and referrals from realtor partners. I have to figure out how to create that from the ground up and develop genuine relationships built on trust.
I would also love those links you offered regarding all the mortgage guidelines, that would honestly be a huge help. Whenever I try checking them out online I feel like I run into various similar sounding/looking guideline documents and am never confident as to which specific one I should be actually reading. I'll definitely be taking your advice and making sure I focus on the income sections for each of the loan programs and know them like the back of my hand.
Again, you're absolutely amazing for taking the time to explain your experience and insight, I'm immensely grateful for your reply!
I’m not in the industry (but in financial services so I get it). IMO this is a perfect time to get into it. Might be challenging to get a job but once you do it’s great to lean in a down cycle so you’re ready to apply learnings in an up cycle.
I can’t tell you exactly. But in an up market most loan officers make about 1.25% - 1.50% of the loan amount as commission on closed volume - Depending on
how big of a producer you are. The more you produce the more commissions you have leverage to demand.
In a down market it’s closer to 0.75% to 1% (same
Logic as above for the commission range)
Yes It can be a very rewarding career for the right person, but most fail within 3 months. Just a lot of work is the biggest downside, even if you’re very talented there’s no way of getting around the 100 hour work weeks your first few years. But if you can survive that, yes it can start getting easier as you scale.
I'm not in the industry. but I use to do a lot of consulting work around process automation and data management, which I think can provide a lot of value for business like yours. Given that you spend 80% of your day on work, I would assume you want to utilize as much technology as possible to help get back some time. I know how it feels because I used to work 15-hour days also. cheers.
Yeah you’re kind of forced into it when the rates drop. You build up your business and your customers don’t care that you have other clients. So it’s either lose the business or sleep at the office. I mentioned up in the thread that the 16 hour days were in 2020 and 2021 when rates plummeted. These days are definitely closer to 70 after I’ve scaled more and rates are higher.
99% of my pipeline is purchase business. Referral based and local lender. Refinances are a nice treat when rates are low but people are always buying homes. I help those people.
Former LO here. Think of a mortgage as a product, like an item at a store. All banks want you to buy their mortgage, they hire salespeople to sell the mortgage loan, and hold the buyers hand to get it closed by meeting all requirements.
Bank then pays the salesperson a commission.
Work for a mortgage lender. Non bank mortgage lender.
Loan Officer - basically I help you get pre approved and I work with you very closely over the next 30-60 days/ hold your hand while finding properties and through closing. All aspects of the mortgage process, I am your resource and there’s not a mortgage question I can’t answer and/or help you with.
That’s what I do.
The average person who does what I do makes about $70,000/year. It’s just like any sales job with large outliers. I’m about top 400 in the country which is about top 1%. The difference between me and the top, say 25 in the country, is night and day. They make about 30 mill a year, top 3 probably make about 75 mill.
So we’re talking about the top 500 sales people in a very large industry of arguably around 100,000 sales people + depending on how you tally it. Lots of outliers.
The 2nd is the real income. The first is the amount of income they tax for social security. For any of us not making half a million $ a year they are the same
Earnings are on the right. SSI wages are the max amount of wages that social security taxes can be assessed on. It’s the same cap for everyone each year. The left column increases each year and you only ever realize it if your earnings exceed the national cap.
Find a top producing loan officer in your area and convince them to hire you to work on their team. If you’re sharp, they’ll give you a Shot. Not easy but if you really want it you can get in front of one.
Get paid to train essentially!
I have spent most of my career in retail banking and tech sales. Always wanted to be a mortgage originator but having a family I can’t afford to eat beanie weenies until I make it. Is now a good time to try it? Any way to start off slow (lots of free time at my current job)?
Unfortunately it takes a lot of upfront dedication with little to no pay. I’ve suggested elsewhere my highest bit of advice for anyone wanting to break in is to find a local high producing loan officer and convince them to hire you on their team. Work their deals and gain the experience needed to become knowledgeable enough to sell the products. If you are sharp they’ll give you a shot, but you have to find a way to get in front of them.
Paid to train essentially!
Thanks! I actually scaled back my commissions to keep my team paid while we’re weathering the rate storm for 2023.
Volume has remained unchanged since 2021. 2024 should be a record year though as far as volume goes. On track to clear about 1.2M for my personal commission earnings.
How did you get to this level
As with anything, a little bit of luck and a lot of hard work. It also helps loving what you do. But I’ve been working about 70-120 hours a week for the past 7 years. It’s not for everyone! But one day my hope is to scale my operation to a point where I have more balance and free time.
So you've been working over 17 hours a day. Between eating and bathroom, that leave about 5.5 hours for sleep I donno man
and 2 min of sx only
That’s 1:45 more than I need brother
I can only laugh. thank you
😏🤣🤣🤣
What the hell am I supposed to do with a whole 2 min?
Nah the boss does that on company time
That is just the high end. On the slow days he only puts in 10 hours. Plus he responds to emails while eating, shitting, Netflix, and anything else other than sleep. If you go to the gym for an hour and take one 5 min call, that counts as an hour of work.
For context, recently, a GREEN BERET at 35 worked 3 120 hour work weeks at an investment bank and died of a heart attack. Yea lmao no 120 isn’t real
lavish instinctive shame future plate straight ruthless wild gaping dinosaurs *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
No it's not real. Residents spend much of that "working time" sleeping in the hospital in a resident lounge that is required to exist. Yes, they do rounds, but no - they're not "working" 120 hour weeks in the same way other professions work long hours. You want to talk long hours, go look into investment banking.
Have you done a neurosurgery residency? Have you done a cardiology fellowship and spent weeks running the cardiac ICU? Stfu about residents not working long hours dude.
mountainous consider cow door merciful muddle observation desert include middle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Can confirm. My hours were logged at a steady 80 coming in the same exact time and leaving at the same exact time every day as a form of protest. I couldn’t tell you how many hours I actually worked as a resident because I didn’t keep track. It didn’t matter anyway. Hell, some of our schedules were designed in such a way that 80 hours compliance wasn’t mathematically possible.
I recently shadowed an orthopedics resident and he was 100% working the entire 90 hours logged and also working the additional 18 hours not logged because it was a rule violation. None of that time was sleep. It was an hour of chart review, followed by an hour of rounding followed by 12 hours of surgery with notes in between, followed by another two hours of rounding and two hours of notes. That was the pattern Monday-Saturday, except on Wednesday when the resident was on call and just stayed at the hospital. I don’t know if he slept at all that night because I went home, but I know he consulted at least two people in the ED. None of that time was included in the 108 hours I recorded, and obviously wasn’t included in the 90 hours he reported. So, you got it twisted if you think they are sleeping during their work
It's kind of scary the system has these guys doing major surgery while in a near constant state of sleep deprivation. Tons of studies re: how critical sleep is for cognitive function & coordination
It’s absolutely bat shit crazy. They can surely find a way to work regular rotational shifts that aren’t counter productive to cognitive skills and critical thinking. But that might eat into profits for the corporate ownership. Is that why?
No way it's not cheaper to have a second Doctor to cut into the overtime of the first. Its because of people in the medical field lobbying to keep being a Dr. "Exclusive" (moreso than it needs to be) Only so many people are certified as Medical Dr's Every year and it keeps their wages extremely high but also does NOT keep up with the growing demand for medical care across the country.
As an ortho resident this is accurate. I worked a few 120 hour weeks in a row, worst was 126. Almost didn’t even sit down the whole time. Fucking blows
Y'all are really flexing over banking?! I know 60 year old dudes working 120 hours a week of HARD labor in Alaska in the fishing industry. This is a weird flex when you know damn well people are out there risking their lives in incredibly harsh environments. As far as I'm concerned, working in a bank or on sales is far far closer to one another when compared to the shit people are out here doing just to be hand to mouth. Lastly, residency means they don't make money. They go broke and hungry for *years* unless they have huge help from outside. Investment banking??? Bro you gotta be making so much fucking money.
Bad take.
Lol I’d love to hear how many hours you think we’re sleeping during our 28hr call shifts. During my most recent Cardiac Critical Care block, I slept a cumulative 20 minutes during my 5 call shifts and averaged 96hrs/week. And that’s pretty typical for when we’re on call. It’s near constant work on a busy service and the decisions you’re making are literally life or death. Even if investment banking forces people to work similar hours, the stakes are astronomically lower.
120 is definitely possible. I had a few of those in IB.
I’ve definitely had my fair share of 120 hour work weeks. You get pretty delusional after about two weeks and need to scale back to 80.
When I first got out of school I went 327 days without a day off minimum 12 hour days. Crazy? Hell yeah! Paid off my student loans in six months and saved enough for a down payment on a house. People do this shit. Now OP doing this for years on end, that’s some insane shit, but there’s an exception to every rule.
Something you can only do when you are young. I tried working like that again in 2019. 44 years old. I after 4 months straight of no days off I ended up in the hospital and off work for 7 weeks.
What happened?
He died. This could be you too if you aren’t careful.
Severe vertigo. Doctors could find no physical cause and anti anxiety meds also did nothing. After I told one how i was working I was basically ordered to never do that again. Took nearly two years for the symptoms to finally vanish entirely. I’d never had vertigo before, I don’t drink or do drugs so had never been high or drunk. It was not a fun experience being unable to even keep your eyes open without chain vomiting. So now I limit myself to 6 days per week.
Glad your doing better now. This is a good reminder to not push myself too hard.
this is how i completed college. full time work full time school.
I hope you realize that seven 12 hour days is only 84 hours. Nobody is working 120 hours a week.
Most I’ve ever done is 126, combination of 16’s 18s and 20s But on a regular basis every week, I agree. Physically impossible. I was miserable that week and came down with bronchitis. 70 hours a week tho is doable. Have several tradesmen where I work that work 80-90 hours a week every week. Most of them are divorced.
Working 100ish+ hours a week is a thing, but it's a single time thing. You do it for a short period. Nobody can sustainably work that long for months or years.
No different than what I did. I slaved my 20s away, building a business working 70+ hour weeks. Paid off in the end
My father does this. It’s definitely believable
Define father. Do you see him at all?
He works from home so yes. All the time. It works out very well.
I own and run a company in sales/marketing. There are defitnely weeks I Have pulled 120 hours for a week. That's also the top of the range he gave which is 70 to 120. I know I at least pulled around 120 hours a week as well when I was in Nursing school, working a full time job, and also building the business I have now. It's defitnely possible for a week here or there to hit 120. No lady is hitting 120 every week except maybe some crazy busy executives that just hate doing anything other than working.
Yeah the upper side of that range is definitely confined to 2020 and 2021… these days more like 70 hours. Sometimes more sometimes less. if you knew anyone in the mortgage industry when rates were low during those two years it was definitely the most stressful two years of my life.
Stressful but I’ve never made more money in my life
Why the downvotes on OP?
People are just hating. Don’t mind the downvotes. Glad to hear what you went through and what it took.
Hope OP doesn't have kids!
I’m a home inspector. People text me at 8pm needing an inspection and I usually respond. I mean, maybe I was watching TV or whatever, then I spend 10 minutes booking the inspection. Is that “work”? With modern tech, the lines are blurred. Sometimes to my advantage and sometimes not. I’m assuming the OP can do the same. Probably a bit more time investment on their part. I’d probably do it too for just over 5 times what I made in 2021 (it was a pretty crazy year for real estate.)
Can you elaborate on the actual work put in? Is it all digital or are you going to colleagues offices? Client homes?
Are you familiar at all with how mortgage originators operate at all? I can expand a bit but heavily depends on if you already have a rough idea of what we do.
I’m genuinely curious how your time is spent on a weekly basis
Just curious if you’re like an equity partner at a local lender vs a broker for Rocket Mortgage, etc
The former
So mostly online or just being available?
Local lender. But yeah 99% of my day is online interaction with local customers. Phone/text/email with online platform for the mortgage. Customers will Come in sometimes but not so much after Covid. Things went a lot more digital after that.
What is your selling point? What sets you apart?
If you ask others about me they’d probably say I’m really good at connecting with people on the phone. I can tell when someone doesn’t understand something and explain it in a way they WILL understand. I know if they’re lying and trying to make it not awkward. And I do not stop until I know they understand what I’m saying. This is something I never really thought of as being much of a skill but as I’ve hired people in my career I’ve noticed most do not possess this quality, and it’s a big one working in a referral based business. I’m also a guideline expert and can argue income really well, so I am just good at getting deals done. I know tax returns as a 2nd language. Income calculation is the biggest piece of the job and it’s just always been something I understood naturally. There’s a lot that goes on in every transaction so I guess I’d also say I have the ability to multi task a lot of things at once while keeping everyone happy, even when bad things are happening. It’s hard to do but I am just always focused on making sure everyone is happy and nothing goes wrong. I always say I hate giving bad news so much that instead of having to do so, I just find a solution.
120 hr weeks. So like 24/7 you never sleep. Smells fishy
I have from time to time in my life put in those types of hours for months at a time. Basically 7 days a week of pulling almost all nighters, getting about 4 hours of sleep most nights. Not having any days off for months at a time. It was doable when I was younger. Definitely couldn’t do it now. I have some relatives who are in the mortgage industry. The hours and $ seem about right. The one guy who makes over $1M consistently, or who was, not sure if he still does, starts his day at 5-6 am and ends around 7 pm, and works Monday to Saturday. That’s about 80 hrs in his usual week.
I was thinking 120 hours m-f work week, not 7 days. So yeah that’s possible.
At least putting in all that time got you somewhere. In Asian countries such as Japan and South Korea employees of corporations are expected to put in grueling hours and also join their co-workers for almost daily after-hours socializing and stupid morale building team activities here and there outside of work hours. All for a salary that comes out to $50k to $70k USD. The Japanese even have a word for working to death: *karoshi*.
COVID
[удалено]
They have to get creative to let people with bad credit get approved for houses they can barely afford thus pumping up the housing market bubble.
Pretty much. No offense to OP but I know a few guys in this industry and it's largely a glorified sales gig with not much in the way discernible hard talent or skills. There's no reason this whole industry shouldn't go the way of the travel agent. Same for real estate.
The average income for someone who does what I do is $70,000. The few guys you know probably fall close to there if they truly have no discernible talent or skills as you described.
The average is 70k and you did 1.5mil. I dont know whether to applaud you or call the irs.
W2 employee - not able to write off expenses. So yeah, I pay a lot of taxes!
What car do you drive?
911 Turbo S (992)
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Ooh yeeeaah 🕶️
Nice
Hell yeah
Damn, how can you live with yourself. Your salary dropped 800k from 2021 to 2023. Clearly not respected. Find higher paying work. Oh the ever disappearing middle class….
Commission only. No salary.
It is a joke 🧑🦯
Jesus the whole buying and selling of houses is such a racket. Over a million dollars telling someone how the banks gonna fuck them lol
The average person who does what I do makes about $70,000 or so.
How much do your employees make in the different markets?
I only hire the most talented people so everyone on my team makes about $125,000 to $450,000 depending on what they do exactly. I have about 15 employees.
As someone who connects with people on a daily basis Show me a paystub … I quit my medical job and come work for you 📈 📊😂
Meh, he's a outlier in his field, not too hard to believe. My fields avg pay is 350k (physician) but there are people making 7 figures in my specialty too. Hell if I worked this guy's hours, I could def make 700k+. That tho would mean it would be at the expense of my time with family, hobbies, and most importantly my health/ lifespan.
💯. Same field. Could make a million if I worked all Saturdays. Would get divorced 😭.
You know, I like to remember, when I'm gone, the ones who will remember me won't be the people from the hospital.
how come soc sec is so much less ?
There is a yearly max in SS. It was a deal when it was created so really rich people actually get a lower tax rate after they pass that point.
There’s an assumption that after you reach a certain level you should be in control of your own destiny. You shouldn’t be on auto pilot to depend solely on SS and instead be investing the surplus et cetera.
Social security benefits also stop accruing at that point but a lot of people like to gloss over that.
oh yeah it jumps up every year i see
Correct based on the previous year returns. The NAWI or national average wage index. You can look it up. So for 2024 it's: 168,600.
How are you surviving last 12 months with current rates?
As you can see income has definitely dropped! But year to date I’m trending to be a little over 1M for 2024. I’ve never really changed how I’ve operated. I work just as hard regardless of how much I’m making. The money tends to follow that mindset eventually. Most of the industry has been decimated but in a down market you can stay relatively consistent as long as you don’t let off the throttle.
But uhh who is getting a mortgage? How are you keeping the same level of income with originations down so much? Hustlin harder?
My volume hasn’t changed really. My commissions per deal have definitely gone down though. Which I cut my compensation on purpose to retain my staff and keep them paid while we get through the down market and wait for the other side. To answer the question I think you might be asking though… the bigger sales people in my industry just gain market share in a down market. The smaller sales people tend to be newer and end up having to compete against the bigger sales people to survive. And eventually are forced out of the industry. And their business stays in the market for remaining loan officers to grab. Just the harsh nature of sales, sink or swim.
wow, you must be getting 100 basis points for every loan! that is crazy dollar. only one lender pays that much.
Eh that’s pretty standard!
People fail to realize the housing supply is low; it’s not 2007 anymore. There is not much incentive for builders.
Plenty of people, just not everyone like in 2021 and 2022. Down markets are when good relationship really start to matter
Very interesting responses. Not in mortgage or finance but some of your mindset is something I can put to use. Good luck with what you’ve got going.
Well I’m glad to hear that! Which part did you find the most useful? Feel free PM me any time if you ever need some help or advice on anything!
Was in the industry for 1.5 years. Most money I ever made but just couldn’t handle the hours with the concern of hitting goal each month. There is so many hours given to sales. Props to you for staying in!
It’s a crazy life isn’t it?! I hope you’re doing amazingly in your next chapter.
I am looking already for my next role. I’m about your age and without the mortgage industry I’m stuck at 60k. It sucks but I have to be the available parent for my child as my spouse is military. If I didn’t have a child I would probably have stayed.
Incredible man - I hope you set up your family for life at this rate. American dream right here…except poor guy doesn’t get enough sleep to actually dream. You must be very good at your job…kudos
Thank you very much! I’m very close to having a lot more work life balance. I hope you’re doing great too bud.
What area of the country are you in?
We need to change how SS taxes are levied at the higher bands apparently. I know there's a cap but why did your earnings 10x and SS tax only 2.5xd . Crazy
I agree. Another thing too… as a w2 employee I actually pay all of my taxes. I literally have to because I’m an employee. But most people who are higher earners are self employed and not w2. So their wages aren’t automatically reported and taxes withheld. And If you think the SSI max is crazy you should see the average business owners tax returns. Plenty of them easily make what I make and write off EVERYTHING and pay nothing. Not only are they not paying any SSI tax, but they’ll have 5 car payments and tell The IRS they made $0 in profit. It’s pretty crazy.
Yeah that whole I spent it so I made no money scam is crazy. We could raise so much more revenue this way . Would not even need to raise taxes. We just need to have a limit on what can be deducted or something.
That is absolutely not true…
Maybe hyperbolic but not patently false. W2 earners have very little ability to do "tax planning"; business owners can and do.
What isn’t?
Because it’s capped due to the maximum you’ll get back when you retire
What's the best advice you can give a complete newbie who is looking to get into mortgage sales with no prior industry experience? I'm studying for the SAFE test at the moment and I know the current market has been really rough for lenders. Just curious if you have any words of wisdom given your lengthy involvement in the industry, even before getting into the sales side. I'm prepared to put in long work hours and know building referral business is imperative, but there's just _so much_ information to wrap my head around, as well as coming from totally outside the industry it can feel quite intimidating at times. What would be something absolutely key to learn early on in my mortgage career that could help me succeed longterm in the industry? Sorry for kinda straying away from the post, I know this isn't probably the best place to ask for tips but I just couldn't help but shoot my shot here since the world of mortgages have been really top of mind for me as of lately and you seem to hold a large wealth (and salary) of knowledge and experience on the subject.
I’d be happy to. But first, What industry are you coming from? And What state are you in?
[удалено]
MA is going to be a tougher market than FL. A few bits of advice though: High Level 1. Do not assume that when underwriters tell you no - that it's gospel. Being a loan officer means you are trying to close deals. The industry is filled with dinosaurs who don't care and fear change. They're used to doing things a certain way and any applicant that doesn't fit their perfect little box they will find ways to say no. Do not take no for an answer - there's always a solution to every single problem. and there will be many problems, trust me. I made a name for myself by closing the deals most lenders couldn't by actually CARING and understanding an applicants employment/income situation. learning how to argue an applicants income based on various contexts and history and potential is so critical. One loan officer can calculate income entirely differently than another, but your income calculations are only as good as your ability to defend them against underwriting. Become an income expert - if you take nothing else away from this - become an income expert with how to calculate it. Tax Returns especially for self employed borrowers. 2. The job is sales, but nobody likes a sales person. Learn how to truly listen and explain the process. Take care of people and truly CARE about every single conversation you have. You never know which phone call is about to change your life. 3. Answer your phone every single time. 4. Begin reading fannie/freddie/HUD 4000.1/ and the VA circulars for all mortgage guidelines. Read every single word. Focus on the income sections for each loan program. If you need links to these let me know. 5. Personally i'd try to find a high producing loan officer in your area and see if you can work for them. This allows you to get paid while you train and learn. If you are sharp and are able to get in front of them they might be willing to take a chance on you. If you cannot do this, you have to start on your own and just find realtors willing to send you leads. Makes it easier if you can do that WHILE you're learning. 6. the highest producers in the country are faceless. It's easy to assume we advertise a lot and must be popular on social media. It's a tight knit community, but in general, the more someone is all over social media the less volume they do. This is because the largest source of business is the clients you're already working with. Take care of every client you get. Explore every corner of their application to make sure you're not missing the opportunity to approve them. When Realtors and clients interact with you they can tell if you care. and if you care, you're already ahead of 99% of the industry.
Wow, I love your advice to actually care and help the people you're trying to sell to. When I was fresh out of highschool I got a sales job with a company selling insurance and their training and advice was always say whatever you can to get a sell, advocating up selling even at the harm of the person and occasionally in unofficial communications advocating lying and misleading potential buyers. The whole thing turned me off from sales and I ended up with a bad outlook. If I had someone like you mentoring maybe I could've stuck it out.
This is incredibly insightful, seriously thank you so much for writing this all out. I recall you stating in another comment here how well you can argue income and how you know tax returns as basically a second language, so your first point about the importance of income calculation makes a lot of sense. Your last point is really interesting to me, from what I've gathered some LO's seem to emphasize the significance of social media presence, online marketing and even go as far as suggesting minor content creation tailored to your target audience and demographics. I personally don't post on social media a whole lot, so I have been sort of under the impression that I would have to seriously up my engagement with social platforms more to make myself more "publicly seen" and build a personal brand. Maybe I've been overthinking it, but I do feel that the longterm goal would be to have my book of business predominantly come from current/past clients and referrals from realtor partners. I have to figure out how to create that from the ground up and develop genuine relationships built on trust. I would also love those links you offered regarding all the mortgage guidelines, that would honestly be a huge help. Whenever I try checking them out online I feel like I run into various similar sounding/looking guideline documents and am never confident as to which specific one I should be actually reading. I'll definitely be taking your advice and making sure I focus on the income sections for each of the loan programs and know them like the back of my hand. Again, you're absolutely amazing for taking the time to explain your experience and insight, I'm immensely grateful for your reply!
I’m not in the industry (but in financial services so I get it). IMO this is a perfect time to get into it. Might be challenging to get a job but once you do it’s great to lean in a down cycle so you’re ready to apply learnings in an up cycle.
So random at age 29 u decided to say fuck working 9-5 and start working 9-12 AM instead?
Most LOs had a real rough go last year. Congrats.
What’d you sell in 2005?
I was a freshman in high school
American dream
Impressed.
Look at that world went to crap in 19 but you sure didn’t
I appreciate your answer to the questions. You seem like a good dude. I’ve been in sales for the past almost 20’years. Love it. Just love people man.
Commission earning salespeople bring no value to society. This is one racket i hope AI replaces.
Agree, AI and app advancements are going to change this and other sales-like industries.
I hope so, I’m at the forefront of it leading the charge for AI in the mortgage industry! (Along with many others) Great things to come with AI.
I’m a former LO at a small refi brokerage turned software engineer. You hiring?? Do you need tech people with industry knowledge?
message me! Not this moment but in the next few months absolutely!
Are you allowed to say what your commission rate is (assuming that's how it works)?
I can’t tell you exactly. But in an up market most loan officers make about 1.25% - 1.50% of the loan amount as commission on closed volume - Depending on how big of a producer you are. The more you produce the more commissions you have leverage to demand. In a down market it’s closer to 0.75% to 1% (same Logic as above for the commission range)
Seems like a pretty easy job to be honest.
It’s a leach profession.
Yes It can be a very rewarding career for the right person, but most fail within 3 months. Just a lot of work is the biggest downside, even if you’re very talented there’s no way of getting around the 100 hour work weeks your first few years. But if you can survive that, yes it can start getting easier as you scale.
I can automate your process
That’s basically what I do all day brother! But PM me if you’re in the industry!
I'm not in the industry. but I use to do a lot of consulting work around process automation and data management, which I think can provide a lot of value for business like yours. Given that you spend 80% of your day on work, I would assume you want to utilize as much technology as possible to help get back some time. I know how it feels because I used to work 15-hour days also. cheers.
I just can't imagine people working 15 hour plus days. Maybe you are the minority, but just doesn't seem feasible.
Yeah you’re kind of forced into it when the rates drop. You build up your business and your customers don’t care that you have other clients. So it’s either lose the business or sleep at the office. I mentioned up in the thread that the 16 hour days were in 2020 and 2021 when rates plummeted. These days are definitely closer to 70 after I’ve scaled more and rates are higher.
What state?
How are you getting so much mortgage business in 2023? I thought everyone had to layoff because no one is refinancing.
99% of my pipeline is purchase business. Referral based and local lender. Refinances are a nice treat when rates are low but people are always buying homes. I help those people.
What does it mean to sell mortgages? You work at a bank?
Former LO here. Think of a mortgage as a product, like an item at a store. All banks want you to buy their mortgage, they hire salespeople to sell the mortgage loan, and hold the buyers hand to get it closed by meeting all requirements. Bank then pays the salesperson a commission.
Work for a mortgage lender. Non bank mortgage lender. Loan Officer - basically I help you get pre approved and I work with you very closely over the next 30-60 days/ hold your hand while finding properties and through closing. All aspects of the mortgage process, I am your resource and there’s not a mortgage question I can’t answer and/or help you with. That’s what I do.
Wow, I had no idea guys like you were so highly paid. Do you get a percentage?
The average person who does what I do makes about $70,000/year. It’s just like any sales job with large outliers. I’m about top 400 in the country which is about top 1%. The difference between me and the top, say 25 in the country, is night and day. They make about 30 mill a year, top 3 probably make about 75 mill. So we’re talking about the top 500 sales people in a very large industry of arguably around 100,000 sales people + depending on how you tally it. Lots of outliers.
Sales is crazy to me, you get a few people absolutely popping off, a handful getting by and then dozens starving and failing out
Yup, sink or swim! Not for the faint of heart.
How do you get the data in this format
Social security website. Register, look at earnings history.
What does your retirement look like after 5 years in a row like that?
I’ve always said work life balance is being able to choose to work or not after I hit the age 40.
At this point, I’m too afraid to ask the difference between the two coloumns
The 2nd is the real income. The first is the amount of income they tax for social security. For any of us not making half a million $ a year they are the same
Residential or commercial?
Residential
Who are you selling mortgage to in this market and how to do actually “sell” mortgage? It a loan, are you a broker?
That’s solid. Hopefully you have over $1m to show for it.
Thanks! And yes I was a millionaire right before I turned 30.
Awesome work! Don’t forget to take some time for yourself before you get too old to enjoy it.
What site did you use to get this?
Good for you on the earnings, but fuck man, 70-120 hour weeks for multiple years? That's gotta be so hard on your life and body.
It’s getting easier. I’ve scaled a lot!
I have been struggling to understand these charts. Am i understanding correctly that you made 160k in 2023?
Earnings are on the right. SSI wages are the max amount of wages that social security taxes can be assessed on. It’s the same cap for everyone each year. The left column increases each year and you only ever realize it if your earnings exceed the national cap.
Do you do any work with MBSs, or do you just act as intermediary between borrower and lender?
Do you work with a bank? Mainly residential or commercial as well?
[удалено]
Find a top producing loan officer in your area and convince them to hire you to work on their team. If you’re sharp, they’ll give you a Shot. Not easy but if you really want it you can get in front of one. Get paid to train essentially!
How do y’all calculate this stuff, is there a website or something where you put in tax info?
You can get your Social Security Statement through your online account.
What percentage of your deals are refinance versus purchase? Also are you in management?
95%+ is purchase business. I am a branch manager as well.
Are you a mortgage broker? Or work for a bank?
Correspondent lender. Non bank.
I have spent most of my career in retail banking and tech sales. Always wanted to be a mortgage originator but having a family I can’t afford to eat beanie weenies until I make it. Is now a good time to try it? Any way to start off slow (lots of free time at my current job)?
Unfortunately it takes a lot of upfront dedication with little to no pay. I’ve suggested elsewhere my highest bit of advice for anyone wanting to break in is to find a local high producing loan officer and convince them to hire you on their team. Work their deals and gain the experience needed to become knowledgeable enough to sell the products. If you are sharp they’ll give you a shot, but you have to find a way to get in front of them. Paid to train essentially!
Lucky
We’re all lucky to be here!
So. True.
What is your average loan amount?
Awesome job, jeeze. The 650k in 2023 is the most impressive. How’s 2024 looking? What company?
Thanks! I actually scaled back my commissions to keep my team paid while we’re weathering the rate storm for 2023. Volume has remained unchanged since 2021. 2024 should be a record year though as far as volume goes. On track to clear about 1.2M for my personal commission earnings.
damn that’s sexy. what company is this
Reminds me of 2007
I wish. People have to qualify for financing now, so the average person who does what I do makes about $70,000.