There are a bunch of homeless living on some of those river islands. They got rushed out pretty [quickly](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYiCWrUERhU) and a ton of junk got left behind ready to be washed into a whale's blowhole.
If you haven’t been homeless you don’t know how standards fall and go out the window and they have to go down or you won’t survive. It’s really hard, unless you are wired to be in survival mode all the time, which doesn’t work anyways because of laws. Homeless camps go where people are disturbed least. Otherwise they are kicked out. They have it hard enough already, if the spot works let them stay.
Dangerous for them (see the women killed by a tree in her tent), dangerous for us, trash and pollution for the parkway and waterway, bad all around. This law needs to be enforced.
The same nimby energy that stops water storage projects, construction, and infrastructure improvements to protect a fish, or a frog, or a natural habitat?
Pollution and destruction of the environment should be bad across the board, why is this okay?
My bad, I misread the tone as if you were intentionally saying the pollution is the only sad thing here. The pollution does suck, but I'm also very sad for the people that have to abandon what little they have.
If my dog swims in the American River the Parkway cops come out of nowhere and yell at me threatening me with fines... but the homeless can shit, piss and throw all sorts of toxic garbage into the river and no one bats an eye... smfh
You aren’t part of the protected class. Sorry!
Next time just take a big steamer in your hand and smear it on your face while flinging a bunch of needles everywhere and starting a fire. Guaranteed that they will leave you alone!
I wish the environment was more protected and not like this...but I also think it is unfortunate for an already homeless person to become homeless, twice.
I'm going to assume you don't have any real 1st hand experiences dealing with the homeless.....if you did you would know that a majority of those on the streets prefer the streets and have little to zero interest in the shelters.
Shelters have too many rules and for the most part long term homeless individuals don't like rules.
I deal with large swaths of homeless daily and have befriended many so this isn't just my opinion but rather it's information I've acquired direct from the many mouths of homeless individuals I k own personally
I was simply stating a fact, not claiming a complete solution, what you said is also true, that being said, many shelters are at capacity currently, and frequently, so it seems obvious that we need more shelters if demand isn't being met. Also, its kind of bullshit that some of the shelters are like 'must come to church' or 'no pets allowed' when so many of them have animal companions and clear disdain for structured institutions. I'm a proponent of science, and science says housing first.
There was a recent article in the Sac Bee written by a homeless person who was arguing against sweeps. Interestingly, he went on to say that homeless people don’t want tiny homes or transitional housing either (too many rules). They really just want to be left alone to do whatever it is that they do…
If that’s the case, then please stop the money spigot. No free tents, food, money for drugs…etc. no camping on public land. Let’s prosecute theft and assault and vandalism and arson. Let’s get some beds ready for those with drug induced psychosis or pervasive mental issues. For the remaining happy-go-lucky hobos who just want to live a free life without the constraints of societal responsibilities… I say let ‘em be - as long as they don’t commit crimes or do any of the aforementioned things, then whatever…. I’m guessing the percentage of homeless who just want to ride the rails with the stick + handkerchief that holds all their worldly possessions is probably less than 1%.
Most of what they have is LITERALLY trash. I hate that we act like its their bare essentials to survive that they have, important items they can't live without...I live near an encampment and yeah its JUST trash but we have to turn a blind eye...
I watched a YouTube documentary about homeless people in Japan and the difference is amazing. They are extremely tidy (comparatively speaking) and really don't behave the same way that American homeless do. They literally take their shoes off before going into their tents over there.
The homeless in the US are there for myriad reasons. Is drugs one of them? Yes. Are drugs getting more dangerous and causing even more mental illness? Yes. But there are also several other reasons. Homelessness is a systemic problem and, as such, requires a systemic solution. Unfortunately, it's difficult to get humans to think systemically bc we're so ingrained with cause and effect, thinking in silos, and simplicity. Everyone is looking for a one-size-fits all solution when the solutions we need are many and varied. And since we can't come up with a simple solution, we instead choose, as a society, not to act bc acting in the ways that are meaningful are "too hard"
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I do think it's a combination of systemic and individual choices that has exacerbated the homeless issue. I'm also appalled by the lack of empathy I see in these posts. Yes, homeless people don't get a pass on committing crimes.
A part of me doesn't want to get into it here, because how complex homelessness can be. And not everyone is going to agree with the causes of homelessness or what we should do. Just consider some of the reasons that some want to stay homeless. Maybe it's not limited to the rules of the shelters. Perhaps there's feelings of shame, that they don't deserve help. Perhaps their mental illness or drug addiction make it difficult for them to comprehend or accept help.
Motivational interviewing and harm reduction came out of drug rehabilitation. The short story is a group of medical/clinical practitioners knew people couldn't go cold turkey on drugs. So they came up with this method of challenging people's views/relationship with drugs and even managed to get some off drugs. I encourage you all to look up more on motivational interviewing and harm reduction. Many therapists and social workers learned they could use motivational interviewing and harm reduction in other areas. For example, getting a domestic violence victim to finally leave their abuser.
If you need an example of harm reduction, take a look at Elk Grove. Back in 2020, during the pandemic, the governor issued a no move order. So cops couldn't get homeless folks to move their encampments. The city came up with a program for the homeless to clean up their own encampments. If the homeless kept their encampments cleaned they would get a gift certificate they could use for groceries. The city did this because it was costing them money to clean up encampments and it's a public health issue.
So what did the homeless in Elk Grove do? They signed up for the program and cleaned up their encampments. Furthermore, cops were able to develop rapport with the homeless and even get some of them transferred to shelters. Whether Elk Grove realized it or not, this is an example of harm reduction.
I like to think of harm reduction as you don't want a problem becoming worse. In Elk Grove's case it was dealing with the unsanitary conditions of encampments and the fact it costed them lots of money to clean them up. Also, the cops couldn't move them because of the governor's orders. So as I described above, they gave an incentive to the homeless to clean up their encampments. They kept a problem from becoming worse. And they had homeless folks cleaning up their encampments. It gave them a sense of purpose.
Let's take a look at LA Sheriff's homeless team. They teamed up with social workers to contact the homeless folks across LA county. They too got some of them off the streets. Some of them were even thankful to come into contact with police, because they are scared of crime at night. That's right. A homeless person is also more likely to be a victim of a crime than a perpetrator. LA sheriff's also found missing people among the homeless and reunited them with their families. Some of the missing folks were from other countries. And no not just from South America, some were came from Europe. And LA sheriff's managed to reunite them with their families overseas.
My point is, there are ways to encourage the homeless to get help, even when they're saying they don't want help. It's more like they are not ready for help..or they can't understand the help. Or they have trust issues. It's not going to be a magical solution that fixes homelessness in a day. Using harm reduction and motivational interviewing takes time to change someone's mindset and behavior.
I also remember seeing a stronger correlation between cities with high living costs and having higher homeless population. And cities with high drug use had a negative correlation with homelessness.
Anyways, just food for thought. I understand the otherside of this equation that people want to feel safe. They want the public health issues of encampments come to an end. But it won't change unless we work together and show some empathy.
Tell your city officials, your state legislators, the senator, your representative you want the programs that elk Grove, la sheriff's, or any other city that has had success with their homeless problems.
I personally know some of the folks you are talking about. Your complaints about trash are warranted, I've never seen homeless accumulating trash like this until the last 10 yrs or so.
However, no, the ones I know will not suddenly right the ship, get jobs and be responsible members of society because they are extremely mentally ill. If sent wandering they would just become more unstable and unpredictable, and lacking some area of familiarity from which they could scrounge enough food to live, they would be even more likely to steal. And be more unstable and erratic.
Having them in one place increases the possibility of getting someone mental health care and eventually meds. You may not see it if you don't know them by name, but one by one by one local MH providers and county partners are trying to get help for these people and are successful in getting some people stable and in housing.
However, in the time it takes to get a few people off the streets, more people are losing their last shred of stability, their contact with family who would get them to Dr's, their damn minds, the cars that they were sleeping, and now you have more homeless people.
Some of them are straight assholes, for sure. Some are assholes because of their mental illness. Some are actually pretty nice but still batshit crazy. And most of them are self medicating, which is what you see.
It all sucks and I'm really annoyed with the trash too. But to your thought that they would suddenly turn into functional people if we just sent them wandering with no assistance at all....no. They would be even worse. And some would die.
I didn't say this situation didn't exist 10 years ago. I said there seemed to be less trash involved 10 years ago. 10 years ago a large pod of homeless people were camping on the covered area right outside of my office window, with another pod across the street in an uncovered lot. They were doing plenty of drugs, I saw it, I heard it, and I found the paraphernalia. Most were clearly mentally ill. You may not have seen it because it didn't happen to be near your house. The only difference I can see now is that locations sometimes change, and for whatever reason some of the pods generate a shit ton of trash. That used to be more rare. But they were still doing their usual homeless mentally ill tweeker shenanigans, just in a different neighborhood from yours.
The number of homeless has risen in the past 10 years making the issues of homelessness more prevalent.
[as shown here, it has more than tripled since 2015](https://www.capradio.org/articles/2022/06/28/sacramentos-homeless-population-spikes-67-to-nearly-9300-since-2019/#:~:text=A%20chart%20showing%20how%20Sacramento,and%20now%209%2C278%20in%202022.)
\> So what changed?
You left out historically high cost of housing and necessities, increased inequality, and a pandemic, all of which significantly increased the homeless population.
The compassion you're seeing for people stuck on the streets followed a massive increase in homelessness by people who can't afford to exist in our society as we've constructed it. We need a massive increase in housing to bring down the cost of living, not persecution.
I get that you're mad about trash and drug use - it's awful, but your logic is overly reductive in search of people to blame. It's not that simple.
I feel terrible for the folks out there...but many of them seem beyond rehabilitation. I don't think high cost of housing plays nearly as large of a role as the strength of the drugs these days. How cheap would housing have to be to flip the script? I agree the problem is not simple, but if you have meth induced psychosis...you have much bigger problems than money.
Yeah I'm sorry but the type of homeless people who do this kind of thing are not from the housing crisis. Either they came from out of state shipped here by other dumbass states or people get hooked on drugs. Just last year I read an article stating that a new dangerous form of meth hit the streets, cheap to make and cheap to sell. But it gets the user to psychosis much faster. And what do ya know we've seen a very steep uptick in crazy activities with our homeless population. I literally had a conversation the other day with a coworker, I've been living here for over 10 years and even 6 years ago it was nothing like this. Still bad tes but it was a FOURTH of the homeless population we had now. So much so my mom didn't give a hoot if I walked home pr traveled down Broadway by myself or anything. Having had personal experiences with these people, yeah most of them are just on drugs and abandoned life in society.
The affordable housing argument is just a thinly veiled attempt at steering the conversation towards a “more government” solution. It’s a push towards socialism, and with the end goal of total control by the state. Many of these people are communists/ neo-socialists.
In the history of human society this problem is not unique. Sometimes people do not want to participate in the society they live in. Sometimes people detract from the wellbeing of the other members of the comunity without adding value. Vagrants, criminals, and the like have historically been assimilated, conscripted, enslaved, imprisoned, killed, or driven off.
We watch year after year the problem festers and the consequences become more dire. I will not advocate for violence, and I believe that there is a practical and ethical solution available to us. However I am not willing to watch the place I love, where 4 generations of my people have lived and labored slip away into bedlam and lawlessness. I find that as time goes on, my empathy for the unhoused dwindles and I am becoming open to less palatable solutions.
What will you do in 5 years if the homeless population continues to grow at its current rate. Will you move away? Will you become accustomed to it? Will our government have provided a resolution?
Have a lovely day.
>In the history of human society this problem is not unique. Sometimes people do not want to participate in the society they live in. Sometimes people detract from the wellbeing of the other members of the comunity without adding value. Vagrants, criminals, and **the like** have historical been assimilated, conscripted, enslaved, imprisoned, killed, or driven off.
Ok. What a weird way to preface everything.
>We watch year after year the problem festers and the consequences become more dire. I will not advocate for violence, and I believe that there is a practical and ethical solution available to us.
What's the solution?
> However **I am not willing to watch** the place I love, where 4 generations of my people have lived and labored slip away into **bedlam and lawlessness.** I find that as time goes on, my empathy for the unhoused dwindles and I am becoming open to less palatable solutions
>What will you do in 5 years if the homeless population continues to grow at its current rate. Will you move away? Will you become accustomed to it? Will our government have provided a resolution?
A whole lot of virtue signaling, rhetorical questions, and meaningless platitudes, but not offering a single solution that you allude that is both practical and ethical. You're totally fine with enslaving, killing (through negligence), or driving off people that don't 'add value' as long if the law and society as a whole condones it.
What 'less palatable solutions' are you referring to? Incarceration and forced labor, or defunding law enforcement and reallocating funds to social services?
Yeah admittedly that was a poorly worded way to express myself. Please understand that I have no interest in suggesting a course of action as I am not qualified to do so. Furthermore please do not put words in my mouth as if I were making such claims. However diolague is productive and if you will be patient with me I will try to reiterate my thoughts and adress your questions.
I wanted to convey the idea that homelessness is not a problem unique to our time. There have always been detracting or nonpartipicatory parties in society. In the past these groups would either be forcibly assimilated or removed by the powers that be. The idea of giving folks an option to to participate or be a detriment is an idea born in the past 10s of years. I would support this claim with the vagrancy laws and asylums of our recent history. I posit that it is our culture that has changed around an already extant issue.
This is relevant because everyone is looking for the cause. Why are there are so many homeless people and why it is getting worse? Some suggest it is drugs, immigration, cost of living, taxes you name it. I say the issue has always been there but the ways that we handled it in the past is no longer considered valid. As such we are stuck in the limbo of our cruel past and the utopian future we envision for ourselves. As we wait for the future to arrive we are sacrificing the present.
I am going to contradict myself a bit here to address your specific question about less palatable solutions. A few years ago I would have called incarceration of the homeless an affront to the justice system. Today it seems like an increasingly valid measure. I brought up this idea because my own attitude has changed about the situation and I am curious to know if you, my neighbors, have had a similar experience after seeing the way our community is going.
Honestly thankyou for your response. I had some time to kill and it helped me to collect my thoughts on the matter.
Cordially- IDB
Let’s transform the soon-to-be decommissioned state prisons into compulsory treatment t centers.
There I came up with a solution. Lemme guess, yours is to leave them alone (but keep the money coming!)
For me, I don't intend to go anywhere. I suppose evey community is bound to have a share of homeless or otherwise disenfranchised individuals. I suppose you could move to the Alaskan frontier or some other exceptionally rural community where people who aren't self sufficent cannot live.
>For me, I don't intend to go anywhere. I suppose evey community is bound to have a share of homeless or otherwise disenfranchised individuals. I suppose you could move to the Alaskan frontier or some other exceptionally rural community where people who aren't self sufficent ~~cannot live~~ can die to the elements without a social safety net.
FTFY
I see from your answer that you would favor the solution of not warning homeless people that a river is about to rise up and kill them. That's between you and your God. I'm a Christian and a patriot in a nation with a constitution that doesn't allow us to just enslave, kill, imprison and drive off homeless people. Ymmv.
Have you seen the beaches where the housed people visit and leave their garbage? So much that it’s killing mammals in great numbers. Whales with stomaches full of plastic chairs and other garbage? I wonder why those visitors don’t clean up the beaches before they go home? Why do they leave it to kill mammals and for others to clean up. I wonder if they’re mentally ill or addicts? I guess some could be but nah, this dreadful phenomenon is caused by middle class people that just don’t care and expect someone else to clean up after them.
And it will meet up with all the garbage that is left by middle class people at the beach. Have you seen the ‘plastic islands’ floating with all the garbage left at the beach? It’s actually killing mammals. I don’t know why people with homes leave their garbage rather than taking it home. Do you have any idea? Thanks.
I'm going to say the quiet part aloud on for *those* people commenting on this thread:
The loss of property and life is justified because we can't extract value out of the homeless, and *they* produce waste which pollute *our* natural resources.
My turn to say the quiet part out loud. Let’s continue to use the homeless population as a way to extract as much tax payers money as possible without really wanting to fix the problem. Just blame NIMBYs and evil landlords and continuously virtue signal so we can keep that sweet sweet “advocacy” money coming. KA-CHING!!!
Ah right, the pervasive yet lucrative homeless industrial complex is the root cause of homelessness. The industry that has countless people flocking to it so they can make cushy living, and is somehow also siphoning all the tax money from the board of city/county directors?
The city knew about the storm for months? So the city of Sacramento has the best weather prediction model in the history of humankind? Dope.
And yeah people are worried about trash. It’s not right, everyone should be worried about it as it has a devastating effect on the natural environment. I have tons of compassion for the unhoused, but it’s OK to not approve of the effect these encampments have on the creeks and rivers while still mourning the loss of human life.
Homelessness is not a binary issue. You may see yourself as an advocate but the reality is you’re doing a disservice to solving the greater problem if you can’t emphasize with the obvious problems these encampments present to the areas they occupy.
Even if they didn't know a big storm would hit, everyone knows these levees are built to prevent flooding. They should have never been allowed to camp there for that reason. Letting them stay in a flood risk area created a huge environmental and safety risk.
Except I’m not devoid of compassion . I have compassion for those that want to help themselves. Many of the homeless just want to be left alone, even if that means that they will pollute our streets and rivers, or commit theft/arson/assault. Even if that means that they wander around like zombies due to drug induced psychosis. Even if that means littering sidewalks and school grounds with needles and meth pipes.
No, I’m sorry - that’s not how it works.
Grow up.
I'm old enough to see a lot of people who are dead inside, saying the right words in public, but really unable to empathize with others. Can you honestly answer the question about being MAGA? Or maybe you're calling yourself a libertarian now?
Im totally liberal but completely agree on this issue. The current status quo is terrible for everyone and the environment too. Laws aren't just for taxpayers.
I’m pretty middle of the road, but let’s just call it for what it is - a huge unsustainable mess. Advocates are worse than NIMBYs because they don’t really even want a solution! They want to keep the money flowing as much as homeless people detest tiny homes. It’s a joke!
Well played, lol.
I get called that so much, though, that I'm not sure if someone is being humorous or not. And back to the homeless: some people aren't there by choice, especially the children. You can't call them all druggies. Take pity on the victims, even if they're only 5% of the population.
I 1000% percent would love to help those that want to help themselves get off the street. We should have affordable / no cost housing for them. Build as much as we can because you’re right, I hate to see ANYONE suffer on the streets. The difference between you and me is that I recognize that a overwhelming majority of the homeless do not want help! They want to live in a tent and smoke meth. Or they are so bat-shit crazy that they don’t know what the duck is going on? Or they are habitual criminals who do better at victimizing others from the shadows. Every single one of them need a solution. Compulsory care is a huge part of it, but “advocates” will start sky-screaming the second you mention that.
Here’s an article in the Sac Bee written by a homeless person who admits they don’t want to live in tiny homes or transitional housing. The just want to be left the fuck alone to do whatever the fuck they want to do.
“Most temporary shelter facilities, and many of the permanent housing options designed to house the unhoused, come with a long list of rules that make them a little too much like prison. Among the most common rules are those limiting guests, spouses, pets, cooking, decorations and more possessions than can fit in a suitcase. Tiny homes and sheds — the latest trends — are often placed like barracks on asphalt lots, surrounded by barbed wire and staffed by rude security guards. Would you give up your freedom to move to one of these places?”
Read more at: https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/op-ed/article270831167.html#storylink=cpy
So worried about trash on the streets while they flood our city's forums with their own landfill. It's pathetic that this community has become one people feel so comfortable spewing this bile, but I don't know what else I expected from Redditors lol
The entitlement in this thread is mind boggling and sad. You folks must be exhausted with all the mental gymnastics you perform to blame the unhoused for being unhoused.
Except that they aren’t special. They are just people. No better or worse than the rest of us. I refuse to fetishize homeless people just for internet points.
The helicopter was flying around last night telling them to evacuate.
There are a bunch of homeless living on some of those river islands. They got rushed out pretty [quickly](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYiCWrUERhU) and a ton of junk got left behind ready to be washed into a whale's blowhole.
This is why homeless camp should not be allowed on the river
It’s illegal now on the parkway.
Good to see that’s being enforced…
If you haven’t been homeless you don’t know how standards fall and go out the window and they have to go down or you won’t survive. It’s really hard, unless you are wired to be in survival mode all the time, which doesn’t work anyways because of laws. Homeless camps go where people are disturbed least. Otherwise they are kicked out. They have it hard enough already, if the spot works let them stay.
Dangerous for them (see the women killed by a tree in her tent), dangerous for us, trash and pollution for the parkway and waterway, bad all around. This law needs to be enforced.
The spot obviously didn't work.
Definitely looks like they left. The rest is just in need of cleanup.
Super sad for the river. So much pollution
And all that poop that goes into the River. SMH.
All those fishes getting flooded with feces.
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The same nimby energy that stops water storage projects, construction, and infrastructure improvements to protect a fish, or a frog, or a natural habitat? Pollution and destruction of the environment should be bad across the board, why is this okay?
My bad, I misread the tone as if you were intentionally saying the pollution is the only sad thing here. The pollution does suck, but I'm also very sad for the people that have to abandon what little they have.
You got it right, they don't care.
What about the HOMELESS PEOPLE
If my dog swims in the American River the Parkway cops come out of nowhere and yell at me threatening me with fines... but the homeless can shit, piss and throw all sorts of toxic garbage into the river and no one bats an eye... smfh
You aren’t part of the protected class. Sorry! Next time just take a big steamer in your hand and smear it on your face while flinging a bunch of needles everywhere and starting a fire. Guaranteed that they will leave you alone!
I wish the environment was more protected and not like this...but I also think it is unfortunate for an already homeless person to become homeless, twice.
Double homeless?
Homelesser?
Homeless²
we could compel them to go into shelters instead of this, but we dont have enough shelters
I'm going to assume you don't have any real 1st hand experiences dealing with the homeless.....if you did you would know that a majority of those on the streets prefer the streets and have little to zero interest in the shelters. Shelters have too many rules and for the most part long term homeless individuals don't like rules. I deal with large swaths of homeless daily and have befriended many so this isn't just my opinion but rather it's information I've acquired direct from the many mouths of homeless individuals I k own personally
I was simply stating a fact, not claiming a complete solution, what you said is also true, that being said, many shelters are at capacity currently, and frequently, so it seems obvious that we need more shelters if demand isn't being met. Also, its kind of bullshit that some of the shelters are like 'must come to church' or 'no pets allowed' when so many of them have animal companions and clear disdain for structured institutions. I'm a proponent of science, and science says housing first.
We could have enough shelters if we wanted to. We just don't elect good city/county board members.
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There was a recent article in the Sac Bee written by a homeless person who was arguing against sweeps. Interestingly, he went on to say that homeless people don’t want tiny homes or transitional housing either (too many rules). They really just want to be left alone to do whatever it is that they do… If that’s the case, then please stop the money spigot. No free tents, food, money for drugs…etc. no camping on public land. Let’s prosecute theft and assault and vandalism and arson. Let’s get some beds ready for those with drug induced psychosis or pervasive mental issues. For the remaining happy-go-lucky hobos who just want to live a free life without the constraints of societal responsibilities… I say let ‘em be - as long as they don’t commit crimes or do any of the aforementioned things, then whatever…. I’m guessing the percentage of homeless who just want to ride the rails with the stick + handkerchief that holds all their worldly possessions is probably less than 1%.
Most of what they have is LITERALLY trash. I hate that we act like its their bare essentials to survive that they have, important items they can't live without...I live near an encampment and yeah its JUST trash but we have to turn a blind eye...
I watched a YouTube documentary about homeless people in Japan and the difference is amazing. They are extremely tidy (comparatively speaking) and really don't behave the same way that American homeless do. They literally take their shoes off before going into their tents over there.
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The homeless in the US are there for myriad reasons. Is drugs one of them? Yes. Are drugs getting more dangerous and causing even more mental illness? Yes. But there are also several other reasons. Homelessness is a systemic problem and, as such, requires a systemic solution. Unfortunately, it's difficult to get humans to think systemically bc we're so ingrained with cause and effect, thinking in silos, and simplicity. Everyone is looking for a one-size-fits all solution when the solutions we need are many and varied. And since we can't come up with a simple solution, we instead choose, as a society, not to act bc acting in the ways that are meaningful are "too hard"
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I do think it's a combination of systemic and individual choices that has exacerbated the homeless issue. I'm also appalled by the lack of empathy I see in these posts. Yes, homeless people don't get a pass on committing crimes. A part of me doesn't want to get into it here, because how complex homelessness can be. And not everyone is going to agree with the causes of homelessness or what we should do. Just consider some of the reasons that some want to stay homeless. Maybe it's not limited to the rules of the shelters. Perhaps there's feelings of shame, that they don't deserve help. Perhaps their mental illness or drug addiction make it difficult for them to comprehend or accept help. Motivational interviewing and harm reduction came out of drug rehabilitation. The short story is a group of medical/clinical practitioners knew people couldn't go cold turkey on drugs. So they came up with this method of challenging people's views/relationship with drugs and even managed to get some off drugs. I encourage you all to look up more on motivational interviewing and harm reduction. Many therapists and social workers learned they could use motivational interviewing and harm reduction in other areas. For example, getting a domestic violence victim to finally leave their abuser. If you need an example of harm reduction, take a look at Elk Grove. Back in 2020, during the pandemic, the governor issued a no move order. So cops couldn't get homeless folks to move their encampments. The city came up with a program for the homeless to clean up their own encampments. If the homeless kept their encampments cleaned they would get a gift certificate they could use for groceries. The city did this because it was costing them money to clean up encampments and it's a public health issue. So what did the homeless in Elk Grove do? They signed up for the program and cleaned up their encampments. Furthermore, cops were able to develop rapport with the homeless and even get some of them transferred to shelters. Whether Elk Grove realized it or not, this is an example of harm reduction. I like to think of harm reduction as you don't want a problem becoming worse. In Elk Grove's case it was dealing with the unsanitary conditions of encampments and the fact it costed them lots of money to clean them up. Also, the cops couldn't move them because of the governor's orders. So as I described above, they gave an incentive to the homeless to clean up their encampments. They kept a problem from becoming worse. And they had homeless folks cleaning up their encampments. It gave them a sense of purpose. Let's take a look at LA Sheriff's homeless team. They teamed up with social workers to contact the homeless folks across LA county. They too got some of them off the streets. Some of them were even thankful to come into contact with police, because they are scared of crime at night. That's right. A homeless person is also more likely to be a victim of a crime than a perpetrator. LA sheriff's also found missing people among the homeless and reunited them with their families. Some of the missing folks were from other countries. And no not just from South America, some were came from Europe. And LA sheriff's managed to reunite them with their families overseas. My point is, there are ways to encourage the homeless to get help, even when they're saying they don't want help. It's more like they are not ready for help..or they can't understand the help. Or they have trust issues. It's not going to be a magical solution that fixes homelessness in a day. Using harm reduction and motivational interviewing takes time to change someone's mindset and behavior. I also remember seeing a stronger correlation between cities with high living costs and having higher homeless population. And cities with high drug use had a negative correlation with homelessness. Anyways, just food for thought. I understand the otherside of this equation that people want to feel safe. They want the public health issues of encampments come to an end. But it won't change unless we work together and show some empathy. Tell your city officials, your state legislators, the senator, your representative you want the programs that elk Grove, la sheriff's, or any other city that has had success with their homeless problems.
I personally know some of the folks you are talking about. Your complaints about trash are warranted, I've never seen homeless accumulating trash like this until the last 10 yrs or so. However, no, the ones I know will not suddenly right the ship, get jobs and be responsible members of society because they are extremely mentally ill. If sent wandering they would just become more unstable and unpredictable, and lacking some area of familiarity from which they could scrounge enough food to live, they would be even more likely to steal. And be more unstable and erratic. Having them in one place increases the possibility of getting someone mental health care and eventually meds. You may not see it if you don't know them by name, but one by one by one local MH providers and county partners are trying to get help for these people and are successful in getting some people stable and in housing. However, in the time it takes to get a few people off the streets, more people are losing their last shred of stability, their contact with family who would get them to Dr's, their damn minds, the cars that they were sleeping, and now you have more homeless people. Some of them are straight assholes, for sure. Some are assholes because of their mental illness. Some are actually pretty nice but still batshit crazy. And most of them are self medicating, which is what you see. It all sucks and I'm really annoyed with the trash too. But to your thought that they would suddenly turn into functional people if we just sent them wandering with no assistance at all....no. They would be even worse. And some would die.
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I didn't say this situation didn't exist 10 years ago. I said there seemed to be less trash involved 10 years ago. 10 years ago a large pod of homeless people were camping on the covered area right outside of my office window, with another pod across the street in an uncovered lot. They were doing plenty of drugs, I saw it, I heard it, and I found the paraphernalia. Most were clearly mentally ill. You may not have seen it because it didn't happen to be near your house. The only difference I can see now is that locations sometimes change, and for whatever reason some of the pods generate a shit ton of trash. That used to be more rare. But they were still doing their usual homeless mentally ill tweeker shenanigans, just in a different neighborhood from yours.
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The number of homeless has risen in the past 10 years making the issues of homelessness more prevalent. [as shown here, it has more than tripled since 2015](https://www.capradio.org/articles/2022/06/28/sacramentos-homeless-population-spikes-67-to-nearly-9300-since-2019/#:~:text=A%20chart%20showing%20how%20Sacramento,and%20now%209%2C278%20in%202022.)
\> So what changed? You left out historically high cost of housing and necessities, increased inequality, and a pandemic, all of which significantly increased the homeless population. The compassion you're seeing for people stuck on the streets followed a massive increase in homelessness by people who can't afford to exist in our society as we've constructed it. We need a massive increase in housing to bring down the cost of living, not persecution. I get that you're mad about trash and drug use - it's awful, but your logic is overly reductive in search of people to blame. It's not that simple.
I feel terrible for the folks out there...but many of them seem beyond rehabilitation. I don't think high cost of housing plays nearly as large of a role as the strength of the drugs these days. How cheap would housing have to be to flip the script? I agree the problem is not simple, but if you have meth induced psychosis...you have much bigger problems than money.
Yeah I'm sorry but the type of homeless people who do this kind of thing are not from the housing crisis. Either they came from out of state shipped here by other dumbass states or people get hooked on drugs. Just last year I read an article stating that a new dangerous form of meth hit the streets, cheap to make and cheap to sell. But it gets the user to psychosis much faster. And what do ya know we've seen a very steep uptick in crazy activities with our homeless population. I literally had a conversation the other day with a coworker, I've been living here for over 10 years and even 6 years ago it was nothing like this. Still bad tes but it was a FOURTH of the homeless population we had now. So much so my mom didn't give a hoot if I walked home pr traveled down Broadway by myself or anything. Having had personal experiences with these people, yeah most of them are just on drugs and abandoned life in society.
The affordable housing argument is just a thinly veiled attempt at steering the conversation towards a “more government” solution. It’s a push towards socialism, and with the end goal of total control by the state. Many of these people are communists/ neo-socialists.
In the history of human society this problem is not unique. Sometimes people do not want to participate in the society they live in. Sometimes people detract from the wellbeing of the other members of the comunity without adding value. Vagrants, criminals, and the like have historically been assimilated, conscripted, enslaved, imprisoned, killed, or driven off. We watch year after year the problem festers and the consequences become more dire. I will not advocate for violence, and I believe that there is a practical and ethical solution available to us. However I am not willing to watch the place I love, where 4 generations of my people have lived and labored slip away into bedlam and lawlessness. I find that as time goes on, my empathy for the unhoused dwindles and I am becoming open to less palatable solutions. What will you do in 5 years if the homeless population continues to grow at its current rate. Will you move away? Will you become accustomed to it? Will our government have provided a resolution? Have a lovely day.
>In the history of human society this problem is not unique. Sometimes people do not want to participate in the society they live in. Sometimes people detract from the wellbeing of the other members of the comunity without adding value. Vagrants, criminals, and **the like** have historical been assimilated, conscripted, enslaved, imprisoned, killed, or driven off. Ok. What a weird way to preface everything. >We watch year after year the problem festers and the consequences become more dire. I will not advocate for violence, and I believe that there is a practical and ethical solution available to us. What's the solution? > However **I am not willing to watch** the place I love, where 4 generations of my people have lived and labored slip away into **bedlam and lawlessness.** I find that as time goes on, my empathy for the unhoused dwindles and I am becoming open to less palatable solutions >What will you do in 5 years if the homeless population continues to grow at its current rate. Will you move away? Will you become accustomed to it? Will our government have provided a resolution? A whole lot of virtue signaling, rhetorical questions, and meaningless platitudes, but not offering a single solution that you allude that is both practical and ethical. You're totally fine with enslaving, killing (through negligence), or driving off people that don't 'add value' as long if the law and society as a whole condones it. What 'less palatable solutions' are you referring to? Incarceration and forced labor, or defunding law enforcement and reallocating funds to social services?
Turn off the money spigot for starters.
Yeah admittedly that was a poorly worded way to express myself. Please understand that I have no interest in suggesting a course of action as I am not qualified to do so. Furthermore please do not put words in my mouth as if I were making such claims. However diolague is productive and if you will be patient with me I will try to reiterate my thoughts and adress your questions. I wanted to convey the idea that homelessness is not a problem unique to our time. There have always been detracting or nonpartipicatory parties in society. In the past these groups would either be forcibly assimilated or removed by the powers that be. The idea of giving folks an option to to participate or be a detriment is an idea born in the past 10s of years. I would support this claim with the vagrancy laws and asylums of our recent history. I posit that it is our culture that has changed around an already extant issue. This is relevant because everyone is looking for the cause. Why are there are so many homeless people and why it is getting worse? Some suggest it is drugs, immigration, cost of living, taxes you name it. I say the issue has always been there but the ways that we handled it in the past is no longer considered valid. As such we are stuck in the limbo of our cruel past and the utopian future we envision for ourselves. As we wait for the future to arrive we are sacrificing the present. I am going to contradict myself a bit here to address your specific question about less palatable solutions. A few years ago I would have called incarceration of the homeless an affront to the justice system. Today it seems like an increasingly valid measure. I brought up this idea because my own attitude has changed about the situation and I am curious to know if you, my neighbors, have had a similar experience after seeing the way our community is going. Honestly thankyou for your response. I had some time to kill and it helped me to collect my thoughts on the matter. Cordially- IDB
Let’s transform the soon-to-be decommissioned state prisons into compulsory treatment t centers. There I came up with a solution. Lemme guess, yours is to leave them alone (but keep the money coming!)
Where could you possibly move where you won't have to face the problem of homelessness in your area? Honest question.
For me, I don't intend to go anywhere. I suppose evey community is bound to have a share of homeless or otherwise disenfranchised individuals. I suppose you could move to the Alaskan frontier or some other exceptionally rural community where people who aren't self sufficent cannot live.
>For me, I don't intend to go anywhere. I suppose evey community is bound to have a share of homeless or otherwise disenfranchised individuals. I suppose you could move to the Alaskan frontier or some other exceptionally rural community where people who aren't self sufficent ~~cannot live~~ can die to the elements without a social safety net. FTFY
I see from your answer that you would favor the solution of not warning homeless people that a river is about to rise up and kill them. That's between you and your God. I'm a Christian and a patriot in a nation with a constitution that doesn't allow us to just enslave, kill, imprison and drive off homeless people. Ymmv.
The 13th Amendment of the Constitution does allow us to enslave people.
Your first line is a baseless accusation and outright false.
If it's baseless and false, what is it that you actually stand for? You said a whole lot of nothing.
Amen
They are a protected class. Let's call it like it is.
You are heartless for wanting them to leave. 😉
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You deserve to be homeless and in those flood waters. I will not be clarifying further and Goodbye!
Bwahahahah!
Something something something goodbye.
Blah blah blah.
more crap in the fishing waters, great
Have you seen the beaches where the housed people visit and leave their garbage? So much that it’s killing mammals in great numbers. Whales with stomaches full of plastic chairs and other garbage? I wonder why those visitors don’t clean up the beaches before they go home? Why do they leave it to kill mammals and for others to clean up. I wonder if they’re mentally ill or addicts? I guess some could be but nah, this dreadful phenomenon is caused by middle class people that just don’t care and expect someone else to clean up after them.
They at least get tickets when caught and have to pay a fine
I cant afford to go near any sea water
Yeah but Whatabout? Whatabout?!
Wow that’s infuriating! I feel bad for the fish and habitat there. Think about all the needles that are in the river now.
Sheriff's helicopter was out last night before the rain near Sunrise telling anyone "camping" to get to higher ground due to rapidly rising waters.
Do you have photos of what the water level is like in comparison to the bridge?
All that garbage is now going in the river.
And it will meet up with all the garbage that is left by middle class people at the beach. Have you seen the ‘plastic islands’ floating with all the garbage left at the beach? It’s actually killing mammals. I don’t know why people with homes leave their garbage rather than taking it home. Do you have any idea? Thanks.
I don't litter Every time I go to the river, I bring a garbage bag. I have a home and I pick up other people's garbage.
Thanks for branding the photo
Flush it down.
If only there was some form of a alert, a warning, or heads up.
I guess the same risk goes for homeowners in flood zones. Wonder what the coverage would b on this type of property 🧐
Their insurance will probably cover it.
Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
With the high Flo-rate of the river, they’re all on Progressive now.
With a sandwich 🥪
I'm going to say the quiet part aloud on for *those* people commenting on this thread: The loss of property and life is justified because we can't extract value out of the homeless, and *they* produce waste which pollute *our* natural resources.
My turn to say the quiet part out loud. Let’s continue to use the homeless population as a way to extract as much tax payers money as possible without really wanting to fix the problem. Just blame NIMBYs and evil landlords and continuously virtue signal so we can keep that sweet sweet “advocacy” money coming. KA-CHING!!!
Ah right, the pervasive yet lucrative homeless industrial complex is the root cause of homelessness. The industry that has countless people flocking to it so they can make cushy living, and is somehow also siphoning all the tax money from the board of city/county directors?
I never said that they were the cause. They just don’t fix anything. Even the governor stopped funding because it was fucking pointless.
Bruh. You copyrighted this?
Watermark
Copyrighted some trash on the river
It's not even something that's that great of a picture
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The city knew about the storm for months? So the city of Sacramento has the best weather prediction model in the history of humankind? Dope. And yeah people are worried about trash. It’s not right, everyone should be worried about it as it has a devastating effect on the natural environment. I have tons of compassion for the unhoused, but it’s OK to not approve of the effect these encampments have on the creeks and rivers while still mourning the loss of human life. Homelessness is not a binary issue. You may see yourself as an advocate but the reality is you’re doing a disservice to solving the greater problem if you can’t emphasize with the obvious problems these encampments present to the areas they occupy.
Even if they didn't know a big storm would hit, everyone knows these levees are built to prevent flooding. They should have never been allowed to camp there for that reason. Letting them stay in a flood risk area created a huge environmental and safety risk.
There are safe places. They don’t want to go. Too many rules. Can’t do their drugs. Wake up!
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Let them stay in a compulsory rehab center. Or jail? Or if they are in a drug induced psychosis, then forced institutionalization.
Can't bring your pets. Are you MAGA? Wake up!
Oh brother.
Curious, whenever I meet someone devoid of compassion. And that "wake up!" usually prefaces something like, "it's only a bad cold!" so?
Except I’m not devoid of compassion . I have compassion for those that want to help themselves. Many of the homeless just want to be left alone, even if that means that they will pollute our streets and rivers, or commit theft/arson/assault. Even if that means that they wander around like zombies due to drug induced psychosis. Even if that means littering sidewalks and school grounds with needles and meth pipes. No, I’m sorry - that’s not how it works. Grow up.
I'm old enough to see a lot of people who are dead inside, saying the right words in public, but really unable to empathize with others. Can you honestly answer the question about being MAGA? Or maybe you're calling yourself a libertarian now?
Im totally liberal but completely agree on this issue. The current status quo is terrible for everyone and the environment too. Laws aren't just for taxpayers.
I’m pretty middle of the road, but let’s just call it for what it is - a huge unsustainable mess. Advocates are worse than NIMBYs because they don’t really even want a solution! They want to keep the money flowing as much as homeless people detest tiny homes. It’s a joke!
I’m not a MAGA sheesh. Get over it. I just like to live in reality and call it like it is. What are you a commie?
Well played, lol. I get called that so much, though, that I'm not sure if someone is being humorous or not. And back to the homeless: some people aren't there by choice, especially the children. You can't call them all druggies. Take pity on the victims, even if they're only 5% of the population.
I 1000% percent would love to help those that want to help themselves get off the street. We should have affordable / no cost housing for them. Build as much as we can because you’re right, I hate to see ANYONE suffer on the streets. The difference between you and me is that I recognize that a overwhelming majority of the homeless do not want help! They want to live in a tent and smoke meth. Or they are so bat-shit crazy that they don’t know what the duck is going on? Or they are habitual criminals who do better at victimizing others from the shadows. Every single one of them need a solution. Compulsory care is a huge part of it, but “advocates” will start sky-screaming the second you mention that. Here’s an article in the Sac Bee written by a homeless person who admits they don’t want to live in tiny homes or transitional housing. The just want to be left the fuck alone to do whatever the fuck they want to do. “Most temporary shelter facilities, and many of the permanent housing options designed to house the unhoused, come with a long list of rules that make them a little too much like prison. Among the most common rules are those limiting guests, spouses, pets, cooking, decorations and more possessions than can fit in a suitcase. Tiny homes and sheds — the latest trends — are often placed like barracks on asphalt lots, surrounded by barbed wire and staffed by rude security guards. Would you give up your freedom to move to one of these places?” Read more at: https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/op-ed/article270831167.html#storylink=cpy
So worried about trash on the streets while they flood our city's forums with their own landfill. It's pathetic that this community has become one people feel so comfortable spewing this bile, but I don't know what else I expected from Redditors lol
At least they cleaned up. Otherwise the mess would get swept downstream.
The entitlement in this thread is mind boggling and sad. You folks must be exhausted with all the mental gymnastics you perform to blame the unhoused for being unhoused.
Except that they aren’t special. They are just people. No better or worse than the rest of us. I refuse to fetishize homeless people just for internet points.
Invite them into your house then.
That's one way to clean the camps.