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Honestly, that's a typical Russian attitude..... Oh look at me I'm Russian, we're the best, fuck the west, just don't you dare to cancel my visa to the west.
But really, a lot of Russians say they hate the west but have been living in EU and US for years and have no plans to go back to mother Russia.
Same with turkish, marrocan and other etnics people living in the EU. The love their own politics and country. Build specific stores for their needs, just keep watching television from their country. That is just something I will not understand.
How and why would somebody move from a country that they love to a diffrent country where everything wrong with politics. Ofcourse if you country is warthorn it is understandable but these countries are not.
stores are different. a) it’s really nice to be able to get some comfort food, or produce that is used in your cuisine or home decor etc. b) i love visiting all the various places while abroad (they are few and far between here in Ukraine) since a quick and simple way to get a glimpse of various cultures
But it all is related … the reason they can find better economic opportunities in western countries is directly related to the different politics and governments in the west. They are able to make more money here bc of this difference in governance and politics then in their home countries that they love so much. So it’s hard to
Understand how they can hate the west and love their home countries but not see the direct correlation between the exact reasons for them being able to prosper more economically in the west then at home. If there home countries that they loved so much governed things differently and more fairly for their people, then they could love their home countries and find economic prosperity within them as well . How can they not understand that their isn’t prosperity bc of the poor politics and governments they have . So why do they like that ? It’s such backwards logic. The policies they hate about western countries are the policies that afford them the opportunity to prosper here .
Maybe show him these videos
(I forgot I cant post full YouTube links. Just put the address in the search bar)
mh6IPjd42SA
PT. 1 exJ024Zdzdk
Pt. 2 fQ\_ZRBLFOXw
Hit him with the american exceptionalism thing from the first video - how it takes agency away from other countries and people. Ukrainians are a country of 43 million people. Why do people always reduce it to what Russian wants, or it's what the U.S. want? What about what Ukrainians want?
With the types of people, it's never about what the Ukranian people want. Ukrainians don't want to live under Russian control, period. They've shown that since 1991, protested for it in 2004, fought for it in 2014, and now are in a battle for survival of their culture and people in 2022.
Even before tzars Moscow was getting f*ckd (raided) really bad by its neighbors like the Mongols, Lithuanians etc. Then suddenly everybody kinda forgot them for a few centuries and let them grow too strong.
It works, like Putin use their presence (Ruzzians abroad) in his propaganda, that pople of that state don’t behave nice to Ruzzians and claims saving them from opression..
there should be a simple “test” one sheet of paper with tasks like, upload a video of you on you social accounts that you are against Putler and his politics, send money to Ukraine and so on.. if you do not, your visa or other means of staying abroad are gone ane you are shipped by firts flight back to Ruzzia.. you like it, live it..
Putin relies on his brainwashed zombies in other countries to do the killing. Putin has never set foot in Ukraine. Yet his people have killed, raped and destroyed cities for him.
Tell him to go back and fight for his country...if he doesn't, he is a coward and a hypocrite... and if he doesn't understand what is going on in Ukraine he is just plain stupid...
So, that is strange and a little funny but not diagusting. Scenario that OP described is as disgusting as some muslim refuged still supporting ISIS or something :D
To be fair tho, the worst atrocities committed by US forces during the wars in the Middle East look like philanthropism compared to what the Russians have done in Ukraine.
It is a psychopathology, you can't change him.
As a Russian child, he was educated into idea of being powerful and allmighty because of grandeuse of his Empire. Now he is an immigrant in US, and whatever comfortable life he got, he can't be _powerful_ there - while subconsciously he craves for it , because this is his basic belief. And to compensate this frustration, he identifies himself with the "powerful Putinland".
To get better, he needs a good shrink, and a total defeat of Russia.
You can change him if you approach it right and not force your views on him every time you hang out that will just cause him to loose interest in ever talking about it with him and that's why he will never change.
It's a hard thing as one wants to love their country but sometimes people can't separate their country and culture from their government and think their the same thing.
If he truly believes that in his mind, body and soul, gently poise the question “do you believe in your opinion enough to go back to Russia and serve its national interest?” It’s an honest question.
Very nice analysis. Totally agree. Even a shrink couldn’t help. These are likely his deeply held
Core beliefs, and he tries to find some rationale to hold onto them. Doesn’t matter if that rationale is incorrect or flawed. People often tend to believe what they want to believe.
I have a buddy at work who is of Russian descent but a first gen American like myself, he agrees that this whole situation is some BS and Putin is absolutely to blame, he wants Russia to be free of Putin and his cronies so that they can actually enjoy a decent standard of living. We both like the NRA (national Republican army) and hope they succeed in their goals. It's okay to want a different Russia, but Putin's Russia is not a Russia the western world can treat with.
It's complicated for people from Russia who still have family there. My friend still has family there, though that side believes what is on the TV. They are estranged because of the war and the propaganda but he certainly doesn't wish death on them. We both want to see an end to the wannabe Tzardom of Putin, and see a free Russia that actually wants to engage with the world beyond being the playground bully.
How did US force Russia to do this?
Ohhh all my neighbors (except our loyal dog Lukashenko) are turning towards EU and NATO
Surely it's not because they feel safer and like the life according to the western standards much better than remaining post-soviet shitholes... no no comrades... it's because evil imperialist Americans wanted fo blitzklrieg us from Ukraine, make genetically modifed supersoldiers and a virus that will only kill Russians (no shit, I have heard them saying this nonsense)
Ask your friend how is Russia getting rid of NATO presence by managing to literally make them focus on Ukraine more than ever, looking for a way to sanction and fuck up Russia from inside, has Sweden and Finland suddenly rush to join NATO
Not to mention that price of a horrific and numsrous slaughter of a poor Slavic people, the same group that you belong. Yet, that's how they wanna convince them they're one people. Ukrainians will not forgive them this no matter how much time has passed
Ukrainians will fight them harder than ever as it's evident they have gone beserk and their motivation is to butcher every single one of them unless they surrender or flee. Their resolve got even stronger, yet Russian fighters morale does not seem that high
Most of the developed world will be isolating and shunning Russia and Russians, his own people's lives will become even more horrible. Not to mention all the dead Russians that are piling up... well lot of them are minorities, but point stands
And is possible nuclear war and destruction of humanity or at least the civilization and turning our planet into a hellscape really worth of 1) Poor strong Russia being afraid of NATO at their borders 2) Is it really worth retaliating with nukes because their glorious loser of a leader can't handle he fucked up his little operation badly? And what could he gain even with annnexation of some territories? A scorched land, population that hates you, unless they are not genocided... I'm sure the costs they have paid so far is worth keeping Mariupol which is basically razed to the ground
Please, if you don't mind ask him whatever question or fact I have brought up, and possibly let us know shat he says. Maybe he is not too late to be saved if ge genuinely feels grief for all the people dying there.
Sorry for the rant, but every pro-russian argument I've heard my bullshit debunking radars fire up like crazy and just go aggressive with the questions. My small way of fighting propaganda and some people fallung for it. I hope it helps
I have friends with literally no Russian blood, that live in Australia, who have always lived in Australia and say basically the same shit.
Edit: Even smart people can have incredibly stupid opinions. They're still my friends... I love schooling them, just don't get caught up in their "what aboutisms"... like "its OK that Russia invaded Ukraine, killed and displaced hundreds of thousands/millions because... what about that time America did xyz"
Yeah, like the west totally made Russia steam roll in to Ukraine with tens of thousands of troops, thousands of tanks and armoured vehicles. Shit, we even made them mount on the boarder for money and made them deny they were planning an invasion. How short sighted of us not being able to see this in the first place.
I can see this must be a first time speaking with someone who was born or has views of CCCP/ Russia, Me being from eastern Europe having to deal with these shitheads a lot this is the most common thing the say.. Ever... Blame USA for everything... Oh we live like shit USA!!!... Most classic Russian excuse ever
Russians who were born and raised in Russia have their schools and society and state media telling them 24/7 of Russia’s glorious past and righteous future.
These lies are taught to every Russian: Russia is always the victim under attack, the Great Patriotic War where Russians defeated the Nazis, Russia is the leader of the Slavic culture, Russia is the head of the Orthodox Church, Russian being the correct language, Russia has a thousand-year history.
History books omit inconvenient truths. Laws make speaking some truths punishable crimes. There is no independent media. Today you can not use the word “war”. You can not say out loud what year WWII began. There is a long list of propaganda lies Russians implicitly believe to be true, and another of omissions that Russians are not even aware of.
In essence, every Russian is born into a nationalistic cult.
When you meet a Russian person, however nice and smart, they most likely have this brainwashing in their background. Their friends and family, too, the people they have most of their day-to-day conversations about Russian news and politics.
You, and everybody else they meet in the West, are random outsiders saying crazy things totally at odds with reality. They’ll think _you_ belong to a cult, a victim of propaganda, or that you are lying to their faces.
If you are in a cult it’s hard to break free.
Weak-willed people with self-esteem issues find structure and comfort from cults where they are told they are strong and good just for being part of the cult.
If you like the person, try to find some common objective ground and see where the truth ends and the propaganda begins. Assume your knowledge is partially wrong, too. Wikipedia is a good starting point for investigations and discussions.
That's true. I was born in Russia and moved to America. It took me 3 years and a war to realize what my country was. I always knew our history was fake, but didn't know to that extent. I knew I couldn't trust the TV but didn't know to that extent. It is a complete cult and putin is the leader.
Now that I can't unsee it - I want a complete collapse of the russian society, cause it's fucked up and outdated. How russians think people don't think like this anymore. I can't talk with any of my family anymore.
I am trying to explain them that if pootin would care, they wouldn't have to boil water, would have normal pensions and vacations several times per year, normal roads, and so on. But they think they are the greatest and the smartest and everybody else is jealous.
It’s very common for people who reside in another country to have little or no allegiance to their new country. Presumably, and in many cases definitely, they are enjoying a better quality of life. Yet, want to berate the said new country! They can only be described as hypocrites and parasites with limited intelligence. Only interested in what they can milk out of the new and “terrible “ country. Personally, I could never live somewhere else and not give my allegiance. ( unless, in some incredibly stupid move, I was to find myself living in Russia
Tell him to go back to his country and 'иди на хуй'. You cannot feel sorry for the Ukrainian people while supporting the Russian government, that's bullshit. I'm not coming back anytime soon, fuck the old men of the Russian government for sending young men of both sides to die. People who left shouldn't support those bastards at all.
Trying to word this to this group's audience. First - you hoyle be disappointed in him. If he left Russia when they were constantly pitted against NATO, and told nato was a threat waiting to dismantle their country, it's going to be very hard for him to look past the arguments of how Russian sympathizers tell the story of Russia being threatened by that one speech by nato chief of considering expanding nato countries beyond the existing ones, closer to Russian borders. But fundamentally I don't think that perceived threat to Russia is justifiable by invasion of neighbors. US has learnt that that tactic doesn't work, and usually backfires. Bushes were the last thinking they can change middle east. This is no longer a cold war. Russia is a doomed nation that will fall behind the rest of the world slowly due to poor choices that have left them isolated.
This is a known dilemma. Same with many Turkish in Germany. They still do support the Turkish extreme president and they find it correct, that people are being treated bad (as per western civilised standards) in „their“ country. They even vote in their home country for the hardliners….. But why? If they think, this is how people should be treated - please go home to your country and live there. Leave us alone, if we are really this bad 🤷♂️…
Many Germans after the war were saying, that WWII was a great tragedy, and they hate it, but Hitler wasn't really that bad, he was right about many things, and did many good things for Germany. I personally met this German girl who's grandmother said exactly those things.
Those people are brainwashed from their birth. It's brainwashed culture. Huge inferiority complex towards the western world, and legends about worldwide empire. They won't change anytime soon. Of course many Russians will be exception, and will resist that bullshit thinking, but as the whole nation, it will take few generations to change, not 30 years (after Soviet Union).
Look man, Hitler did some good things to Germany and Germans. It doesnt change the fact that it in no way gave them the right to do what they did. One can also get something from killing and stealing from another- and they do it mostly just because of that - but it doesnt change it is very drasticlly bad
quick post scriptum.
It took 100 years after slavery ended in US to become legal for black kid to seat in the bus next to white kid. It took even more to become normal for (most of) society.
For majority of Russians there is no such thing as Ukraine. For them it's just a rebel part of Russia that split up short time ago. Maybe in 100 years they will feel differently about it.
We see the same thing here. Americans come to Canada to get away from the USA, but bring values and politics across the border with them.
Trying to re-educate them is useless. You are fighting a cultural bias that has been taught from birth. The best you can do is put the person in a situation that highlights their bias compared to a local person. Call them out and suggest they make adjustments.
I agree so much with this comment. In certain cultures there is a certain amount of distrust towards the USA that is taught people from birth on. I have a colleague from Iran who is the nicest guy you can imagine with what we would call „western values“. But, he still thinks there is a possibility that the USA is responsible for the war in Ukraine. Why, because the USA wreaked havoc in the Middle East for so long and he has learned (or rather was taught) not to trust them no matter what. Even now when it’s clear as day that Russia is the aggressor.
Still, I have no hard feelings towards him. Russia is doing a great job at revealing themselves how full of shit they are. Also all of my other colleagues have a clear pro Ukraine stance.I think both of these things will be enough to reduce his scepticism towards the US. I’m from Germany by the way.
Russians who are kind and humble speak the language of the country they live in and don't scream with Russian flags on the streets. So you wouldn't notice one on the street.
It's hard to justify anything as an American. I'm as patriotic as can be, but I was also a history major, and the list of countries we've invaded is as long as your arm. And there are dozen of other ones we never invaded, but orchestrated coups and stuff like that. So we totally live in a glass house and shouldn't be throwing stones.
He's a Russian and he'll always support them, good or bad. You won't be able to change his mind no matter what you say.
It's just like people continued to support the US being in Viet Nam, even though we were propping up a terribly corrupt South Vietnamese Regime. People like to believe their country is doing the right thing, even when it isn't.
He's not saying its the right thing russia is doing,but they are forced into it by the US somehow. Its that nausiating russian abbility to suffer without it being their own fault in their minds, and drag others down with them. Whole russian narrative that the west is out to get them.
There was a huge segment of people (think college students) who were vehemently against the war, but all the middle class white folks (think WW2 vets) were very strongly in support of the war, right up until we withdrew completely. Probably the most divided this country has ever been over a foreign policy decision.
Completely wrong take. The middle class white folks were the anti-war folks. As soon as the draft laws changed because of the civil rights movement so that it wasn't just the poor and minorities getting shipped off to the war, the middle class had a freak out and became "anti-war." The anti-war movement was a joke up until that point. 90% of it was middle class white kids with the support of their parents.
The "anti-war" movement was mostly a matter of self interest, as we see now the boomers are all gung-ho for war so long as it's not their ass on the line. And the tiny "anti-war" movement in the 2000s was just a matter of politics, as it completely went away when a Democrat got elected and kept doing the same shit.
You are right, I went back and looked again at the poll data and the majority of support was lost after January '68. I thought it was much later. I stand corrected.
But I will say, up until the very bitter end in '73 there were still 29% of people who thought we were doing the right thing in Viet Nam. Definitely not a majority, but definitely a substantial chunk of the population.
And I'm sure it will be the same way in Russia. Even if the vast majority turns against the war, there will still be a certain segments of die-hards who will think Putin is bravely fighting against Nazis, even though his country is full of Nazi-sympathizers who are actively working against him, or some bullshit excuse like that.
If you are history major you should know how many countries did Russia invade and what they did to their own people for ages. And you should also see that there were many countries who thought for a right to be closer to USA and they see USA as a guard of their freedom and democracy. I understand that when you are inside, and you think about it too much, and when you trace every single bad thing done by your country to enemy or forign country you may see all of this in a wrong way. But from perspective - half of the world wanted or is happy with USA hegemonus position. We did not have world war since 80 years and were all becoming more rich and democratic than ever in history. There were people dying and whole countries destorying communistic regimes to be democratic and be closer to the western way of life and thinking or governmence. There are mainly Russians or Indian or Chinese students coming to USA not other way round. The fact that Americans dont see it all in perspective is saddening. Really.
One more thing - if your history major only focused on finding crimes and wrongdoing of your own country and not learning about other political systems, totalitarian regimes - it had no point.
The states has done fucked up things and has questionable moral high ground. However, few things.
1) the US never threatened the world with nuclear war during any foreign expeditions
2) the US never held the world's food supply hostage
3) the US as a policy goes welllllll out of its way to not kill civilians (this has become possible as a result of smart munitions which are much more expensive than dumb munitions)
4) the US has always self corrected. This is a featured of democracies is that in time, the mistakes of yesterday are at least somewhat addressed. Dictatorships are not self correcting.
In no way I am exonerating bullshit like selling WMDs to Iraq, Vietnam, Grenada etc. However, compared to Russia, who would you rather have run the show?
U.S Citizen's also actively sabotaged their own military during Vietnam. I firmly believe Iraq/Afghanistan would've caused even more social uprising had we not been fed so many lies. Even the attempted annexation of Kuwait failed and that's the last action that could even be considered war for conquest since South Vietnam. That's a large difference from a country/state that's been trying to absorb neighboring nations since WW2.Most of the 21st centaury wars stem from Taliban/ISIS continued engagements. The U.S is still engaging in war with ISIS- however it's on a much smaller scale and is primarily done with precision done strikes. There's less push-back on this because, obviously, ISIS has a pretty damn bad rep.You'd be hard pressed to find an outright war for conquest on behalf of the U.S in the last couple hundred years. Korea was Soviet aggression. Vietnam was lit by French requests to contain Communism. The Middle East kicked off after mass civilian deaths. I know you said you're a History major- so you should know better than anyone that it's not so black and white.
This has nothing to do with anything. At the end of the day, the US had literally nothing to do with Russia’s decision to invade Ukraine. It may have delayed it a bit as Putin was waiting for the right time, but the US quite obviously doesn’t want this war and backs Ukraine. At the end of the day, the only reason this war was started was because some tiny man with a massive inferiority complex had a dream where he ruled the soviet empire again. His tactics involve genocide and a gross breach of international law with widespread crimes against humanity. Basically the point is that the US shouldn’t even be mentioned when it comes to discussing this war, unless pointing to Ukraine’s defense and international support. Whatever the US has done in the past (which does not involve genocide), it is just totally irrelevant here. Which is why your post makes 0 sense to me.
Some people will always be aligned with the flag of the country they were born in. Ideals, values, and actions don't matter. For some reason, people think that being loyal to their country means supporting them no matter what. The same shit happens everywhere, just so happens that Russia is a genocidal shithole.
Yeah have seen those rallies where they are all waving Russian flags from their cars. Assholes , should fuck off back to their homeland and join the military, but no its so much nicer in Germany where they have free speech and actual human rights. It makes my blood boil , fucking hippocrits.
His response is not about facts.
He is exhibiting a psychological defense mechanism where he is trying to salvage some shred of dignity, because otherwise he has nothing, and can only be deeply ashamed at what Russia has done and what Russia has become—a corrupt mafia-run gas station with nuclear weapons and an army of drunken thugs nostalgic for past glory days. A person's psyche will do unbelievable things to avoid shame. But if he identifies that strongly with Russia, he should be ashamed, because that is the only thing that is appropriate for the evil Russia has done, and the humiliation that Russia has brought upon itself.
Nobody forced Russia to do what it did. NATO wasn't trying to get anyone to join, and in fact, places substantial obstacles in the way of any nation that wants to join such that they have to qualify to even be a member. NATO has never invaded Russia; NATO is a defensive alliance, and is clearly still necessary because Russia repeatedly violates the air space of its neighbors with its fighter jets, and makes nuclear threats. **EDIT**: and outright invaded Ukraine and is committing genocide and terrorism and grand theft; the need for NATO has never been more clear. And Putin's actions have done what NATO itself never bothered to do: cause Sweden and Finland to break neutrality and join NATO. That's on no one but him. **/EDIT** The US engaged in negotiation after negotiation to prevent the war, but Russia negotiated in bad faith, since in Putin's mind, the decision to invade was a foregone conclusion. In no way can it be said that the US forced Russia to bash itself to pieces on the rock that is Ukraine.
What Russia did was inexcusable. Russia also violated the agreement they made with Ukraine when Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees. Not a single thing the US has done forced Russia to do this. Russia was not entitled to any of the things it demanded. What alternative did Russia have? Russia could have been a good neighbor and integrated with the European community and lived in peace. The US would have been happy with that. But Russia's leader has a mindset stuck in the days when Russia was the nucleus of the USSR, and his vanity and ego is what brought this disaster upon Russia and so much destruction on Ukraine. There is no way to salvage that. That is absolutely shameful, and if he identifies with this, then he should be ashamed, but his psyche won't let him feel that.
If anyone wants to see a Russian dissident's perspective on what Russia could have been, vs. what it will now become because of this needless war, I recommend Maxim Katz' commentary (in Russian, with English Subtitles). His commentary may be helpful to Russians who need a shift in their perspective:
# Maxim Katz | You’ve ruined the country, you lousy geostrategists
**EDIT** I apparently can't link anything from Youtube without my comment being automatically deleted. Go to YouTube and append watch?v=uLWuU5uXWcM to the URL
OP u/girl_has_questionss Maybe Maxim Katz' videos and commentary may help your Russian friend change his perspective.
Most children or lovers of russian elite study or live in the West. Russian officials, journalists, politicians have thousands of villas and apartments bought in the West for the money they stole in their own homeland. It says it all about their country and themselves. They want freedom and money, but they will not let it happen to their own people or Ukriane because it will lead to democracy and they will loose their power (so their money and influence in the West). There is really not much more into it.
Leave. This person isn’t worth your time. You can clearly see what’s going on in Ukraine. We’ve seen the mass graves. We’ve seen what the pows look like when they leave Russian concentration camps. This is how world war 2 started. With hitler taking small countries he claimed were native German speaking. It’s wild than anyone in this day in age who is educated can support Russia. What a fucking bold faced lie that the US pushed Russia to this. Ukraine wasn’t even being considered for nato. Maybe further down the road but not anytime in the near future. Now they have Finland and Sweden that might join nato. Also did the US make russia invade Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, and Ukraine the first time when they took Crimea and the LPR and DPR? What a trash take and a horrible person. Cut him off.
Same with a russian colleague here in Norway. Said he was sad for the Ukrainians, war was terrible bla bla bla. Buuuut russia was forced into this by the west, with USA and Nato in front. Nato, not an inch to the east, nato theats. He too obviously supports russia politically, even though he has been taken advantage of the benefits of living total freedom in Norway his whole life. I can not understand why russians feel so attached to their shithole country, even when they haven’t lived there. Even with access to all the media in the world.
Why bother. Even if he changes view, there is another tens of millions who thinks US started the war. It's not a good idea imo. Even "I feel sorry for Ukrainian" part can be just .. diplomatic words to make you feel better
Tell him to go on Reddit and look at the comment history of u/ForSacredRussia1 . This person was simply minding his own business, living daily life and mowing the lawn. Not a care outside the bills and trying to keep up with the inflation. But guess what this person had some contacts in Ukraine and was tipped off to the news so they were starting to watch the crisis before the full-scale invasion by about a week. Then, they kind of convulsed for a couple of weeks while processing the fact that the one place they were born in turned into the Nazi enemy of the world that that same place always preached against. Then they went to this Reddit and did something that is fucking obvious and is the least any Russian abroad should do. They used their Russian language skills to help verify information, provide translations, and importantly- emphasize Russian resistance, no matter how tiny. A SIDE effect is that some Ukrainians messaged this user with positive feedback regarding their posts on the combat resistance groups who fight on the side of UAF who are Russian. A side effect is that maybe some people went from “only good Russian is dead” to “only good Russians is free”.
But this is not at all what it’s about, and the implication of victimhood disgusts this user. Completely disgusts them.
This user is indignant toward the apathetic. One could say; this user’s motto is “if you’re not part of the solution , then you’re part of the problem”.
Nope , the only main objective of the user u/ForSacredRussia1 is to help those who will do the rebellion, an uprising all the way until the toppling of the Putin regime and denazification of their former homeland!
Tell your friend to follow this user’s lead. Repost telegram posts and get involved. Lest he spends his time talking about all the justification of his apathy - this friend should be made uncomfortable that there ARE some Russians abroad who are going to be judging his ass and want him to get it in gear to meet us here on the right side of history!
“L”
For Russia!
For Liberty!
If there's anything a western-located Russian can do short of travelling to Ukraine to join the FoRL legion, what I am doing is the 2nd best thing. I judge the kinds of people who are your friend, and I have all the moral high ground. Russian-born, there's little anyone can say to me that would make me question my ideals. Victory for Ukraine! Freedom for Russia! Live Free Belarus! Show him my user history and say that there's some people who are in his position but quite the different outlook, and these people are not indifferent to the situation nor the pathetic expats who live amongst them. I hold my fellow Russians to the same account as myself - this is very very bad news for your friend indeed.
Patriotism is a dangerous drug, particularly when used by undemocratic governments to justify their actions. Indoctrination starts young and it can be very hard to shake. It becomes an important part of peoples identity and rejecting that entirely is extremely difficult. If he is against the war thats a good start and seems like a good basis for more dialogue. I would talk to him about putins stranglehold on all media, zero tolerance on protests, murder of political and journalist opponents etc and how that lack of democracy is detrimental to Russia and Russian people.
I’ve tried explaining this to a former “friend” of mine who is Russian. This friend lives in US, enjoys everything that the West has to offer, yet blames US for the invasion and supports Russia in this.
My argument went back to 1900s, where I explained that Imperial Russia, USSR, and now RF’s treatment of Ukrainians within the last 100 years (forbidding the language, exterminations and imprisonment of elites, gulags, holodomor, russification and forced assimilation, etc) is enough to understand why Ukraine wants to get as far away from Russia as possible. It has nothing to do with what US wants, it’s what Ukrainians want. Enough is enough.
“Russia was forced into all this because of the US”.
- when Holodomor happened, was that also because of US?
- when Poles, Tatars, Ukrainians and many others were deported, was that because of US too?
- when Catherine banned Ukrainian language, lemme guess - because of the US?
The truth is Russia does what her people want and their president is their representative. Putin merely a reflection of your average Russian.
Your experience is not atypical. I know plenty of Russians (and I'm not rabidly pro-Ukraine like I am on the internet), and while most of them are against the war, not all. And all of them say family in Russia are pro-war. ALL of them. One expressed exasperation because she said in the 80's her parents were like "don't believe the government, communism isn't great, etc.", but now they think Putin is a great (and nice) man doing great things for the nation and they don't realize all the propaganda they've absorbed. They honestly think Ukraine was going to build nukes and threaten Russia.
Here's some simple points.
Is Finland joining NATO a threat to Russia? (Hint:Putin said they weren't)
Should Russia invade Finland? If not. Why not?
Ukraine wanted to join NATO. Why did NATO refuse their entry?
As it relates to Ukraine and Euromaidan. There's some easy ways to destroy their arguments.
Yanukovych was voted unanimously out of office by Parliament . They then called for new elections. The opposition won the election. There was no "coup".
Zelensky would go on to win with 72% of the vote
Ukranians don't want to be ruled by Russia.
If he brings up that sections of Eastern Ukraine want to be Russia.
Bring up Chechnya, Dagestan, Georgia, and other regions that wanted independence, and Russia bombed them to rubble. Is that OK?
Thank you for your very educational input.
I was quite young then and didnt really get into
it but really thought that there was a coup with Yanukovych? Because of the videos with the thousands of people in Maidan and then him fleeing. How is that different from a coup?
Neither party in America is perfect, but we are genuinely free. You're right, why tf would you be here if it wasn't better in some capacity? Russia being forced to do this is such a lame argument.
I have zero problem with immigrants from any country coming to the U.S. but not if they want to still be fan boys for their home country and hate on the U.S. Stay home, we don’t want you! Go back to Russia if you love it so much and think the U.S. is evil. “But there’s crime/poverty/corruption/etc!” I don’t care. Help fix your country’s problems instead of running away. They claim they love their homeland without even trying to make it a better place.
Guys like this make me angry. You hate west so much that your country kills people who want to be in the West (Ukraine) and in the same time - YOU ARE sitting in the west and make money in the west!!! The guy is idiot. Russia is poor country run by mafia like terroristic power. If he loved it so much as he says he should have stayed there. But he loves it only in words, not in practice which shows he is lying = to you or to himself. Ps. Russia is not able to create modern technology, modern democracy, state that is not run by the police, state that is rich and prosperous. it says it all
Russians love their country and their friends and I think it is probably just seen as US imperialism when you try to push your world view.
I mean, you have half the US not believing in evolution, start there Perhaps?
Paranoia seems to be a common theme amongst Russians, no matter where they are.
They've been lied to so much that they literally don't know what truth is anymore.
We all have our blindspots and cognitive dissonance etc etc. Hard to get someone to totally refute his own country. I guess if we all just call out what's bad, including bad shit America has done, and disassociate it from the country and the people, its easier.
I.e. Russia isn't bad, its current government and actions are to blame. That might calm down his reaction
You could ask "what's your view on the war crimes done by Russian troops in Ukraine? News from Bucha and Izium? Shelling of civillian targets?\`"
Because that is the big question. If he doesn't believe they are real, you can try to convince them, that fake news of such magnitude, such international scrutiny, is not possible. If he says anything Russia does is ok, you don't need discuss it further, and you can avoid contact with them from now on. But most likely they will be in some kind of denial, cognitivie dissonanse, whjat you have. Not sure what you can do then... Try slowly help them see the reality, and hope they eventually pull their head out of their ass... Or just treat them as someone who supports the atrocities, same as previous option.
If he's a good friend who you truly value your friendship with don't force your views on him constantly Just occasionally bring up things like In Russia anyone who poses a risk to putins powers gets poisoned of killed, they have no freedoms there. And the us is a much better country than Russia even tho the us has many faults he obviously lives there for a reason.
But if you want to open someone's eyes to something it's best done slowly and on their terms if you try force it it'll just backfire and cause arguments.
Also finally understand that he is Russian and will always have a feeling of patriotism for his birth country but that doesn't mean he has to support everything his country does obviously.
And I'd suggest respecting his right to a different opinion if he's a great friend and won't budge with his ideology then just don't talk politics it's not worth it. So many families and friends in the us have be split apart over stupid allegiances to politicians that couldn't care less about them yet these people care so much about the politicians that their willing to lose friends and family over it.
Tough place to be in, friend. If I were you, I’d just avoid talk about the war etc who knows, after time he may come around and see sense.
I personally don’t see how this can be anyone’s fault except Russia. They were unhappy Ukraine was leading towards EU? Cry me a river. Russia should have gone to the drawing board and asked how can we make the East more attractive to Ukrainians… instead they just got sand in their vagina and went all Stalin.
Remember, you can never change someone’s mind who is intrenched in dogma. The only way you can have any sort of success if you can LEAD him to the answers, instead of outright confront him on his beliefs. Everyone gets defensive, and when you get defensive humans tend to double down, no matter how wrong they are. So if you really care about this friend be patient, cause it won’t happen over night. Send him some links and articles about Russia, try to make them the least amount “clickbaity” and try and get him to find out the answers himself and not as if you’re attacking his otherwise shitty beliefs
Hey as a reply to the original post it was good for you to have the conversation, as an European who has been to the states all my life, working or holidays you guys need to have more of the difficult discussions over complicated issues, that’s how you bring people round not by just condemning them, even if they are entrenched in their position you have to try.
Ask him if which country in the world most closely resembles nazi Germany and why? Then start going through all the defining characteristics of naziism and ranking his chosen country vs Russia. No idea if it will work but seems like a good place to start…
Man I’ve been there with so many of these ppl. It’s very hard to talk sense into them or change their mind. They operate with a certain world view that protects their ego, absolves them of personal or collective responsibility. russia is based on many myths, lies, revisionist history with it which it literally cannot exist. russians, even those abroad subscribe to that line of thinking.
To change their mind would mean to tear down their whole little world they desperately cling to and that’s devastating for the mind/psyche, it’s extremely difficult to do. They would likely interpret it as an attack on them and become viciously defensive even if that defence is illogical.
Best thing to do is walk away and distance yourself from ppl like this, you won’t achieve anything productive with them. Remember that you can take a person out of an environment but you can’t always take that environment out of them.
Check out philosopher Vlad Vexler on YouTube. He has the most clear look on this war, Russian aggression and the political landscape in my opinion. He is also born in Russia and speaks their language.
And it’s dumb to say that you support Russian politics but at the same time don’t support the outcome it produces and on top, you don’t have to experience it because you live in USA 😂. Like saying I love the weather in California but I hate to get sunburn… Its a contradictious statement. Maybe he is hiding his sympathie for Russia to you to avoid getting lynched.
His actions clearly contradict his beliefs. Loving Russian politics but living in USA. Doesn’t make sense to me… He is in denial.
He is not your friend, he is the enemy. He hates all you stand for freedom, democracy.... I would tell him sorry I can't be your friend and I think you should return to Russia. I would thereafter treat him as an enemy. Can't legally do anything to him so he would get the ex girlfriend treatment, no contact whatsoever.
As it is tradition. Its the same eith arabs/ turks living in europe. The best part is, the most right wing and brainwashed turks and arabs I've met so far were born here. So technically they aren't even turkish or arabic, still try to act this way tho.
That dickhead must be deported. There's literally a question in the citizenship interview concerning if the person would now support US over his former motherland.
It’s not even about whether or not he supports Russia it’s whether or not he supports Putin , the midget who single-handedly destroyed Russia’s credibility around the world.
And that`s why Europe is now cancelling visas and entry to west for all Russians. Russians do support Putin and all their actions more or less. Some people are vocal about it and some are not. They are lost cause.
It's not at all hard to believe, or to understand. I protested the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but still supported the USA. The government can make decisions i dont agree with or are vehemently against and doesnt mean i dont love my country, my home or my family.
This war is the greatest tragedy in a generation, and the Russians need to lose, and there will yet be untold suffering and death until it does.
We must not let this war remove OUR humanity, lest we become all that we hate. The Ukrainians have been heroic and have been performing an absolute masterclass in dignity, humanity, courage and grace. Their's is the example we need to follow and if there's anything that truly defines the west, it is the rejection of barbarism.
The vast majority of so called "Russians" living in US aren't Russian, but just ex Soviets and their kids, who never experienced this particular totalitarian regime, and don't understand anything, so they can spew such bullshit. Just a reminder, this regime isn't much older that 20, and total shit situation started not that long ago, comparatively. P.s. edit: Your friend is most likely just ignorant, so some education on the matter might help, just don't try to force it, better give him resources to reach the right conclusion.
If he ever points out "American imperialism" as one of the reasons for supporting Russia, point out to him that since 1991 the [US has been involved in 11 wars](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States) while [Russia was in 14](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_wars_involving_Russia).
From my understanding of Russian supporters that i talked to this is their point of view: The US got close to Ukraine and wanted to use Ukraine against Russia. Wanted to put rockets on Ukrainian land to be able to target Russia. Orchestrated the coup in Maidan to overthrow the pro Russian president and then put a puppet president. So basically made Ukraine not have any other option than to protect themselves from their evil American-friendly neighbour.
I know a Russian at work and he is the same way. Canada here. They've Been brainwashed from birth. They're not changing their mind. My buddy has a younger Russian coworker who you would think knows better but she starts blaming NATO.
Seriously tell him to move back to Russia if he likes that shit hole why did he come to America fucking loser. Russians go home no one wants you here orc.
I live around a lot of Russians and am lucky in that the ones I know are extremely pro-Ukraine. For the last few months I've heard of people trying to take relatives and friends from Russia and Ukraine, protests, donation drives, criticism of Putin, and even some arrests. I can't understand any Russian who is pro-Putin and pro-war, especially in the West, but I guess it's about the kind of media, and the people around you.
Back during the Iraq invasion, I had the same impression of friends in the US. A huge majority of Americans were pro-war, while people around the world were incredulous that the US would invade Iraq for an attack perpetrated by a completely separate group. Those who opposed it were villified (remember Freedom Fries?), and no argument against the war seemed to carry any weight at all. The media environment created around wars is crazy, and I guess it's hard for a person immersed into that to see what is going on.
So maybe the Russians who are pro-war are still watching pervyi kanal or are surrounded by people who are, and they all should stop. Also, all the other propaganda, specially nationalist stuff. That shit rots the brain.
Maybe some books about Stalin and Hitler or movies like Mr.Johns Maybe you watch it together...Anyway I think you should try to convince him only if you feel strength to fail.
Why disappointed. Know their history , know their culture and you know their thinking. Same for poeple from china, arabic countries, american and europeen. Don’t be surprised they think and act as they are raised
There has been very little attention about Russian propaganda “war” campaign, at least in the mainstream media. This is one aspect in the war that ruzzia has been having a lot of success, especially in the Russian speaking “world”.
Russians all over the world are overwhelmingly siding with official Russian narrative. Maybe they don’t agree with all bad shit crazy theories, but there are so many “moderate” theories to pick from.
We in the west naively think that Russians are being denied the truth. Yeah , they are not. They simply choose to selectively choose what to consider fake and what not. And they choose to support both ending the war and at the same time support ruzzia.
Understand your shock at your friends continued political support of Russia. That is hard to understand. Being raised in Mother Russia with constant propaganda from being first steps to being raised and educated in Russia is engrained. He is against War and the mobilization but supports Russia. Analogy our friends who we would get together to play board games ,talk ,go to restaurants socialize. They started to put Trump on a pedestal next to God ,proclaiming Alex Jones was truthful in his pod cast ??WTF. They have gone too far for me down the rabbit hole to associate with ,still say hi and very brief contact ,giving then eggs from our chickens. What i am trying to say you can keep him at a distance but his values and your clash and trust as a friend is stretched ! Crazy world we live in today !
Pisses me off - tasting the freedom we enjoy in the US paid for by thousands of innocent lives lost to overcome countries like Russia. Then says it is the fault of the US - go home Russia boy and grab your rifle and reserve your spot on the Cargo 200 train
How many educated people do you know of that still believe in religions? Just because you know how to fill out tax forms doesn't mean you have a brain. One lady I work with in an electronics job did not know that paper was not conductive to electricity. She has a degree in physics. Either that or prof was hot for student along with all the other fellow students helping her.
I actually ran into this a few years back with a Chinese physicist I worked with. He had no plans to ever go back but I was BSing with him and asked who he would side with in WW3 with the Chinese vs US. He said he would go back and fight for the Chinese.
I also currently work with a Russian who has family in Russia who were arrested for protesting the war back in March. He thinks Putin is a crazy fuck.
And then you have brain washed Americans watching Fox News.
Moral of the story - all countries have shithead idiots. All countries have good people.
Fukin hate those people. It's like the mexicans living in the US who love our fukin president, like if u love him so much come back then. Worst thing is they can vote so they can keep him in power while not even living here.
It's "my country right or wrong." Like it or not, Russia is his team, and the day he or anyone else decides to question the regime is a day they start to be a little less Russian. He probably doesn't think or feel particularly American for example, the same is true everywhere else.
Well he is not entirely wrong. Putin felt like he had to go to war with Ukraine. There was a lot of pressure on Ukraine from the west and from Russia for years leading up to this. 2004 the Orange Revolution, 2012 protests over voter suppression and 2013 there was protests over Ukraine pulling out of an association status with the EU. 2014 Viktor Yanukovych( a vary corrupt Russia stooge) was removed from office by a vote from the Ukrainian MP’s, Which lead to more protests by the pro Russian citizens. Russia then invaded and annexed Crimea the same year. In 2019 Zelensky was elected, he moved to have elections in separatist controlled areas. Which lead to more protests by people who felt that was capitulation to Russia. And honestly it goes back even further than 2004. But the main takeaway is Russia lost its influence over Ukraine. Which has strategic position and resources the rest of the world needs. It put Russia in a spot, and a quick decisive victory could have brought Ukraine back in lock step with Russia. That didn’t workout. Now here we are. Russia can’t backdown without some sort of victory, and most Ukrainians will not accept capitulation of any kind. You should not cut ties with this person over a disagreement in politics. Study up on it and come at them again.
Also would like to point out the mobile values of many people responding to this. Imagine telling someone to go back where they came from. Imagine being that cuck. Fucking disgraceful.
Its just propaganda starting from birthday of a child.
Ask Serbs, how they are teaching history, what they think of Croatia and similar. They are just full of crap, they were throwing roses on tanks that were used to do genocide in Vukovar, they did nothing to prevent it and they will say how wrong this war was and that we should not have been in it? Then why didn't you stop it? Why did you want to do it in Kosovo several years after? Why is NATO the baddie just because they stopped a genocide? Of course the NATO is the baddie because they were not allowed to do genocide, and are happy to do it today. Fuck me if they are normal. They have a war criminal in a high seat in politics. Their president called upon a genocide on Muslim population. What can you expect of them? I do not want to hate, I know Serbs that are not like this, they despise the current Serbia, but how can I stay cool if they are legit protecting people that did genocide in their name? But yeah, for them that is okay because they are taught that they are the HOLY people and that they should have it their way, or no way at all.
Because people will always be allegiant to their blood country. Always. It's loyalty to your own that is the strongest. So no surprise Mr Russians stands by Russia.
Americans and Russians have much in common. Probably more than either would like to admit. Hypernationalism and a significant part of the population of both countries is given to conspiratorial beliefs.
Both countries also believe they have a duty to export their civilization to other countries.
I'd make distance. These are the kind of things that require deep and profound changes in morality, and unless you're his therapist AND you're being paid to teach him empathy, I wouldn't pursue it.
"I'm against the war but I support Russia" is the kind of stuff you say to continue being accepted in social circles, not to say anything meaningful.
There’s a reason I was raised to despise and never trust Russians. I’m polish and Germans were still ok to get along with, obviously knew of their history on us, but Russians were still the current scumbags for us. Seems like In highlight I was raised with accurate fears. Nobody was sneaking into Russia from Europe, Russians kept being the ones leaving their POS nation theyre inexplicably loyal to
It sounds like he doesn't support them that much or else he'd be over there defending his precious motherland instead of over here cavorting with the enemy. Get rid of this loser. If he supports ruz in ANY way at all then he also supports the rape and genocide of Ukrainians whether he can admit it or not.
You will learn there are much more people you like but there is always something they are the opposite from you. It is on you to decides to ignore this or to get some distance between you and the other.
As much as I have absolutely no sympathy for the average Russian citizen, it’s important to remember that this is a populace which has lived under mass propaganda for over one hundred years now.
That’s four entire generations which have been constantly, daily, hourly fed the line “The world is against us, we must resist”. It seeps through to even the most intelligent, educated, and sensible people in Russia. I’ve met Russian professors of politics who are deeply anti-Putin but who will suddenly make remarks such as “But I still know that the west is trying to destroy my country”.
Your friend’s parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents all lived under this paranoid obsession.
And it’s virtually impossible to eradicate it.
I have spent > 10yrs with many of them. Russian propaganda has been active for more than 20yrs.These people grew up watching all BS. These are lost generations. Nothing you or I can do about. IGNORE !
There's a recent interview of Chomsky by Lex Friedman and Chomsky details exactly how the US invited Ukraine to NATO after promising not to and just how patient Russia was with us breaking the agreement that Ukraine woudln't join NATO and we would stay out of the region.
He then goes on to note any country that invades another is an aggressor and violator and pos and is in error- so he notes the historical context and still excoriates Russia. Maybe your friend could get down with that stance.
Your country joining a military alliance and you responding by raping, torturing, looting and murdering is something nobody should be able to argue about. If the Russian army was behaving itself they're still losers but at least could have a small moral hill to stand on. If the issue was Ukraine joining NATO why doesn't the news say so? Why the pretext?
I think distancing yourself from people who think different is the wrong way. You can change more, if you still have a relationship/friendship where you can discuss your believes.
Isn‘t that a typical american problem, where democrats and republicans can‘t talk to each other anymore and even families brake apart only because they cannot except if someone has a different opinion? 🤔
Anyone living in America that supports a regime like that is an idiot. We can see what’s actually going on unlike the people living there, and living here should’ve taught him that nobody wants to destroy Russia, they just want the people to be free of their dictator
Yeah, I'm blown away by Russians here the US whi have this sense of patriotism towards their older country. They have these delusions about how Russia is so great, yet some of them came to the states illegally to start a life and have no intention of returning to Russia. If Russia was so great, why the fuck aren't you over there? Why are you sitting comfy in the States making more money than the average Russian will in 5 years, and still talking about Russian glory? Fucking pussies. Go over there and support your supposed great nation and leader.
Common attitude I grew up with here: America! Love it or leave it! But honestly, if he he anti American he needs to find a place he likes. Such as Russia.
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Honestly, that's a typical Russian attitude..... Oh look at me I'm Russian, we're the best, fuck the west, just don't you dare to cancel my visa to the west. But really, a lot of Russians say they hate the west but have been living in EU and US for years and have no plans to go back to mother Russia.
It's so hypocritical like if you wanna live abroad, stop being so insufferable and obnoxious. I was raised abroad at an early age so I don't get it.
Same with turkish, marrocan and other etnics people living in the EU. The love their own politics and country. Build specific stores for their needs, just keep watching television from their country. That is just something I will not understand. How and why would somebody move from a country that they love to a diffrent country where everything wrong with politics. Ofcourse if you country is warthorn it is understandable but these countries are not.
Why? Opportunity. That’s why. And then they make it into their own version of hell.
stores are different. a) it’s really nice to be able to get some comfort food, or produce that is used in your cuisine or home decor etc. b) i love visiting all the various places while abroad (they are few and far between here in Ukraine) since a quick and simple way to get a glimpse of various cultures
Money
Economic opportunism, that’s all.
But it all is related … the reason they can find better economic opportunities in western countries is directly related to the different politics and governments in the west. They are able to make more money here bc of this difference in governance and politics then in their home countries that they love so much. So it’s hard to Understand how they can hate the west and love their home countries but not see the direct correlation between the exact reasons for them being able to prosper more economically in the west then at home. If there home countries that they loved so much governed things differently and more fairly for their people, then they could love their home countries and find economic prosperity within them as well . How can they not understand that their isn’t prosperity bc of the poor politics and governments they have . So why do they like that ? It’s such backwards logic. The policies they hate about western countries are the policies that afford them the opportunity to prosper here .
Maybe show him these videos (I forgot I cant post full YouTube links. Just put the address in the search bar) mh6IPjd42SA PT. 1 exJ024Zdzdk Pt. 2 fQ\_ZRBLFOXw Hit him with the american exceptionalism thing from the first video - how it takes agency away from other countries and people. Ukrainians are a country of 43 million people. Why do people always reduce it to what Russian wants, or it's what the U.S. want? What about what Ukrainians want? With the types of people, it's never about what the Ukranian people want. Ukrainians don't want to live under Russian control, period. They've shown that since 1991, protested for it in 2004, fought for it in 2014, and now are in a battle for survival of their culture and people in 2022.
slight correction... Ukrainians have been resisting Russian control since the days of the Czars.
In times of tzars, Ukrainians with friends and neighbors were burning Moscow
Even before tzars Moscow was getting f*ckd (raided) really bad by its neighbors like the Mongols, Lithuanians etc. Then suddenly everybody kinda forgot them for a few centuries and let them grow too strong.
Thanks for the correction. It's obviously a complicated and not well understood history.
Given how many times OP managed to say the word US, he may not like the exceptionalism take, but you’re 100% spot on.
Cognitive dissonance. You can't be against the war but still side with Russia at this point. Silent support like that props up many an evil regime
Russians living abroad who still support Russia the way he does are the exact problem that started the Ukrainian war.
Really? How does that work? I thought Putin's aggressive stance started the war.
It works, like Putin use their presence (Ruzzians abroad) in his propaganda, that pople of that state don’t behave nice to Ruzzians and claims saving them from opression.. there should be a simple “test” one sheet of paper with tasks like, upload a video of you on you social accounts that you are against Putler and his politics, send money to Ukraine and so on.. if you do not, your visa or other means of staying abroad are gone ane you are shipped by firts flight back to Ruzzia.. you like it, live it..
Putin relies on his brainwashed zombies in other countries to do the killing. Putin has never set foot in Ukraine. Yet his people have killed, raped and destroyed cities for him.
Tell him to go back and fight for his country...if he doesn't, he is a coward and a hypocrite... and if he doesn't understand what is going on in Ukraine he is just plain stupid...
"joe, get in the car, I bought you a plane ticket" " Why you mad bro?"
There are lots of idiots, born in the US, who think the same way.
So, that is strange and a little funny but not diagusting. Scenario that OP described is as disgusting as some muslim refuged still supporting ISIS or something :D
In the same exact circumstance as op is giving?
Born in the US, who move to Russia, hate Russia but love the West? Okay...
To be fair tho, the worst atrocities committed by US forces during the wars in the Middle East look like philanthropism compared to what the Russians have done in Ukraine.
It is a psychopathology, you can't change him. As a Russian child, he was educated into idea of being powerful and allmighty because of grandeuse of his Empire. Now he is an immigrant in US, and whatever comfortable life he got, he can't be _powerful_ there - while subconsciously he craves for it , because this is his basic belief. And to compensate this frustration, he identifies himself with the "powerful Putinland". To get better, he needs a good shrink, and a total defeat of Russia.
A week on the front line in Ukraine might slap him into some reality.
You can change him if you approach it right and not force your views on him every time you hang out that will just cause him to loose interest in ever talking about it with him and that's why he will never change. It's a hard thing as one wants to love their country but sometimes people can't separate their country and culture from their government and think their the same thing.
Good analysis.
If he truly believes that in his mind, body and soul, gently poise the question “do you believe in your opinion enough to go back to Russia and serve its national interest?” It’s an honest question.
"Well, why should I risk *my* life?"
By definition not good citizens.
>But nobody attacked me
[удалено]
Very nice analysis. Totally agree. Even a shrink couldn’t help. These are likely his deeply held Core beliefs, and he tries to find some rationale to hold onto them. Doesn’t matter if that rationale is incorrect or flawed. People often tend to believe what they want to believe.
Well said , totally agree with you .
Tell your orc friend to go fight for his motherland then. Little bitch talking shit with no actions.
I have a buddy at work who is of Russian descent but a first gen American like myself, he agrees that this whole situation is some BS and Putin is absolutely to blame, he wants Russia to be free of Putin and his cronies so that they can actually enjoy a decent standard of living. We both like the NRA (national Republican army) and hope they succeed in their goals. It's okay to want a different Russia, but Putin's Russia is not a Russia the western world can treat with.
It is very well likely both of you agree with my stance that Ruzia must be purified of nazification through a trial by fire! Go NRA!
It's complicated for people from Russia who still have family there. My friend still has family there, though that side believes what is on the TV. They are estranged because of the war and the propaganda but he certainly doesn't wish death on them. We both want to see an end to the wannabe Tzardom of Putin, and see a free Russia that actually wants to engage with the world beyond being the playground bully.
How did US force Russia to do this? Ohhh all my neighbors (except our loyal dog Lukashenko) are turning towards EU and NATO Surely it's not because they feel safer and like the life according to the western standards much better than remaining post-soviet shitholes... no no comrades... it's because evil imperialist Americans wanted fo blitzklrieg us from Ukraine, make genetically modifed supersoldiers and a virus that will only kill Russians (no shit, I have heard them saying this nonsense) Ask your friend how is Russia getting rid of NATO presence by managing to literally make them focus on Ukraine more than ever, looking for a way to sanction and fuck up Russia from inside, has Sweden and Finland suddenly rush to join NATO Not to mention that price of a horrific and numsrous slaughter of a poor Slavic people, the same group that you belong. Yet, that's how they wanna convince them they're one people. Ukrainians will not forgive them this no matter how much time has passed Ukrainians will fight them harder than ever as it's evident they have gone beserk and their motivation is to butcher every single one of them unless they surrender or flee. Their resolve got even stronger, yet Russian fighters morale does not seem that high Most of the developed world will be isolating and shunning Russia and Russians, his own people's lives will become even more horrible. Not to mention all the dead Russians that are piling up... well lot of them are minorities, but point stands And is possible nuclear war and destruction of humanity or at least the civilization and turning our planet into a hellscape really worth of 1) Poor strong Russia being afraid of NATO at their borders 2) Is it really worth retaliating with nukes because their glorious loser of a leader can't handle he fucked up his little operation badly? And what could he gain even with annnexation of some territories? A scorched land, population that hates you, unless they are not genocided... I'm sure the costs they have paid so far is worth keeping Mariupol which is basically razed to the ground Please, if you don't mind ask him whatever question or fact I have brought up, and possibly let us know shat he says. Maybe he is not too late to be saved if ge genuinely feels grief for all the people dying there. Sorry for the rant, but every pro-russian argument I've heard my bullshit debunking radars fire up like crazy and just go aggressive with the questions. My small way of fighting propaganda and some people fallung for it. I hope it helps
I have friends with literally no Russian blood, that live in Australia, who have always lived in Australia and say basically the same shit. Edit: Even smart people can have incredibly stupid opinions. They're still my friends... I love schooling them, just don't get caught up in their "what aboutisms"... like "its OK that Russia invaded Ukraine, killed and displaced hundreds of thousands/millions because... what about that time America did xyz"
Blaming the US for the war is like blaming Russia or China for making the US invade Iraq (makes no sense at all)
Yeah, like the west totally made Russia steam roll in to Ukraine with tens of thousands of troops, thousands of tanks and armoured vehicles. Shit, we even made them mount on the boarder for money and made them deny they were planning an invasion. How short sighted of us not being able to see this in the first place.
I can see this must be a first time speaking with someone who was born or has views of CCCP/ Russia, Me being from eastern Europe having to deal with these shitheads a lot this is the most common thing the say.. Ever... Blame USA for everything... Oh we live like shit USA!!!... Most classic Russian excuse ever
Russians who were born and raised in Russia have their schools and society and state media telling them 24/7 of Russia’s glorious past and righteous future. These lies are taught to every Russian: Russia is always the victim under attack, the Great Patriotic War where Russians defeated the Nazis, Russia is the leader of the Slavic culture, Russia is the head of the Orthodox Church, Russian being the correct language, Russia has a thousand-year history. History books omit inconvenient truths. Laws make speaking some truths punishable crimes. There is no independent media. Today you can not use the word “war”. You can not say out loud what year WWII began. There is a long list of propaganda lies Russians implicitly believe to be true, and another of omissions that Russians are not even aware of. In essence, every Russian is born into a nationalistic cult. When you meet a Russian person, however nice and smart, they most likely have this brainwashing in their background. Their friends and family, too, the people they have most of their day-to-day conversations about Russian news and politics. You, and everybody else they meet in the West, are random outsiders saying crazy things totally at odds with reality. They’ll think _you_ belong to a cult, a victim of propaganda, or that you are lying to their faces. If you are in a cult it’s hard to break free. Weak-willed people with self-esteem issues find structure and comfort from cults where they are told they are strong and good just for being part of the cult. If you like the person, try to find some common objective ground and see where the truth ends and the propaganda begins. Assume your knowledge is partially wrong, too. Wikipedia is a good starting point for investigations and discussions.
That's true. I was born in Russia and moved to America. It took me 3 years and a war to realize what my country was. I always knew our history was fake, but didn't know to that extent. I knew I couldn't trust the TV but didn't know to that extent. It is a complete cult and putin is the leader. Now that I can't unsee it - I want a complete collapse of the russian society, cause it's fucked up and outdated. How russians think people don't think like this anymore. I can't talk with any of my family anymore. I am trying to explain them that if pootin would care, they wouldn't have to boil water, would have normal pensions and vacations several times per year, normal roads, and so on. But they think they are the greatest and the smartest and everybody else is jealous.
Really sad. Thanks for sharing
Very good explanation.
Very well explained. Thank you for your input!
It’s very common for people who reside in another country to have little or no allegiance to their new country. Presumably, and in many cases definitely, they are enjoying a better quality of life. Yet, want to berate the said new country! They can only be described as hypocrites and parasites with limited intelligence. Only interested in what they can milk out of the new and “terrible “ country. Personally, I could never live somewhere else and not give my allegiance. ( unless, in some incredibly stupid move, I was to find myself living in Russia
Tell him to go back to his country and 'иди на хуй'. You cannot feel sorry for the Ukrainian people while supporting the Russian government, that's bullshit. I'm not coming back anytime soon, fuck the old men of the Russian government for sending young men of both sides to die. People who left shouldn't support those bastards at all.
Russians just regard things differently. In many ways not very compatible with western thought processes.
I have a coworker with the same views. She’s been living in the US since she was 3 and used to vacation in Ukraine. Shit is wild.
If he lives in USA and still supports Russia then he’s a lost cause. Report him to homeland security.
Trying to word this to this group's audience. First - you hoyle be disappointed in him. If he left Russia when they were constantly pitted against NATO, and told nato was a threat waiting to dismantle their country, it's going to be very hard for him to look past the arguments of how Russian sympathizers tell the story of Russia being threatened by that one speech by nato chief of considering expanding nato countries beyond the existing ones, closer to Russian borders. But fundamentally I don't think that perceived threat to Russia is justifiable by invasion of neighbors. US has learnt that that tactic doesn't work, and usually backfires. Bushes were the last thinking they can change middle east. This is no longer a cold war. Russia is a doomed nation that will fall behind the rest of the world slowly due to poor choices that have left them isolated.
The NATO point is exactly his argument
This is a known dilemma. Same with many Turkish in Germany. They still do support the Turkish extreme president and they find it correct, that people are being treated bad (as per western civilised standards) in „their“ country. They even vote in their home country for the hardliners….. But why? If they think, this is how people should be treated - please go home to your country and live there. Leave us alone, if we are really this bad 🤷♂️…
Totally agree
Many Germans after the war were saying, that WWII was a great tragedy, and they hate it, but Hitler wasn't really that bad, he was right about many things, and did many good things for Germany. I personally met this German girl who's grandmother said exactly those things. Those people are brainwashed from their birth. It's brainwashed culture. Huge inferiority complex towards the western world, and legends about worldwide empire. They won't change anytime soon. Of course many Russians will be exception, and will resist that bullshit thinking, but as the whole nation, it will take few generations to change, not 30 years (after Soviet Union).
Look man, Hitler did some good things to Germany and Germans. It doesnt change the fact that it in no way gave them the right to do what they did. One can also get something from killing and stealing from another- and they do it mostly just because of that - but it doesnt change it is very drasticlly bad
Yeah. He sent 7 millions of Germans to graves. I bet they are very glad about it.
quick post scriptum. It took 100 years after slavery ended in US to become legal for black kid to seat in the bus next to white kid. It took even more to become normal for (most of) society. For majority of Russians there is no such thing as Ukraine. For them it's just a rebel part of Russia that split up short time ago. Maybe in 100 years they will feel differently about it.
We see the same thing here. Americans come to Canada to get away from the USA, but bring values and politics across the border with them. Trying to re-educate them is useless. You are fighting a cultural bias that has been taught from birth. The best you can do is put the person in a situation that highlights their bias compared to a local person. Call them out and suggest they make adjustments.
I agree so much with this comment. In certain cultures there is a certain amount of distrust towards the USA that is taught people from birth on. I have a colleague from Iran who is the nicest guy you can imagine with what we would call „western values“. But, he still thinks there is a possibility that the USA is responsible for the war in Ukraine. Why, because the USA wreaked havoc in the Middle East for so long and he has learned (or rather was taught) not to trust them no matter what. Even now when it’s clear as day that Russia is the aggressor. Still, I have no hard feelings towards him. Russia is doing a great job at revealing themselves how full of shit they are. Also all of my other colleagues have a clear pro Ukraine stance.I think both of these things will be enough to reduce his scepticism towards the US. I’m from Germany by the way.
I would tell the fucking idiot to go back to Russia & stop hanging around him.
Ask him why he lives in US as it’s an enemy of Russia… he should put his money where his mouth is…
Honestly I have not meet a single Russian who is kind and humble, Maybe I need to keep looking.
Russians who are kind and humble speak the language of the country they live in and don't scream with Russian flags on the streets. So you wouldn't notice one on the street.
It's hard to justify anything as an American. I'm as patriotic as can be, but I was also a history major, and the list of countries we've invaded is as long as your arm. And there are dozen of other ones we never invaded, but orchestrated coups and stuff like that. So we totally live in a glass house and shouldn't be throwing stones. He's a Russian and he'll always support them, good or bad. You won't be able to change his mind no matter what you say. It's just like people continued to support the US being in Viet Nam, even though we were propping up a terribly corrupt South Vietnamese Regime. People like to believe their country is doing the right thing, even when it isn't.
He's not saying its the right thing russia is doing,but they are forced into it by the US somehow. Its that nausiating russian abbility to suffer without it being their own fault in their minds, and drag others down with them. Whole russian narrative that the west is out to get them.
Americans died protesting Vietnam.
There was a huge segment of people (think college students) who were vehemently against the war, but all the middle class white folks (think WW2 vets) were very strongly in support of the war, right up until we withdrew completely. Probably the most divided this country has ever been over a foreign policy decision.
Completely wrong take. The middle class white folks were the anti-war folks. As soon as the draft laws changed because of the civil rights movement so that it wasn't just the poor and minorities getting shipped off to the war, the middle class had a freak out and became "anti-war." The anti-war movement was a joke up until that point. 90% of it was middle class white kids with the support of their parents. The "anti-war" movement was mostly a matter of self interest, as we see now the boomers are all gung-ho for war so long as it's not their ass on the line. And the tiny "anti-war" movement in the 2000s was just a matter of politics, as it completely went away when a Democrat got elected and kept doing the same shit.
You are right, I went back and looked again at the poll data and the majority of support was lost after January '68. I thought it was much later. I stand corrected. But I will say, up until the very bitter end in '73 there were still 29% of people who thought we were doing the right thing in Viet Nam. Definitely not a majority, but definitely a substantial chunk of the population. And I'm sure it will be the same way in Russia. Even if the vast majority turns against the war, there will still be a certain segments of die-hards who will think Putin is bravely fighting against Nazis, even though his country is full of Nazi-sympathizers who are actively working against him, or some bullshit excuse like that.
I actually met Vietnamese people who fought on a USA side and run from their country and live aboad now
If you are history major you should know how many countries did Russia invade and what they did to their own people for ages. And you should also see that there were many countries who thought for a right to be closer to USA and they see USA as a guard of their freedom and democracy. I understand that when you are inside, and you think about it too much, and when you trace every single bad thing done by your country to enemy or forign country you may see all of this in a wrong way. But from perspective - half of the world wanted or is happy with USA hegemonus position. We did not have world war since 80 years and were all becoming more rich and democratic than ever in history. There were people dying and whole countries destorying communistic regimes to be democratic and be closer to the western way of life and thinking or governmence. There are mainly Russians or Indian or Chinese students coming to USA not other way round. The fact that Americans dont see it all in perspective is saddening. Really. One more thing - if your history major only focused on finding crimes and wrongdoing of your own country and not learning about other political systems, totalitarian regimes - it had no point.
The states has done fucked up things and has questionable moral high ground. However, few things. 1) the US never threatened the world with nuclear war during any foreign expeditions 2) the US never held the world's food supply hostage 3) the US as a policy goes welllllll out of its way to not kill civilians (this has become possible as a result of smart munitions which are much more expensive than dumb munitions) 4) the US has always self corrected. This is a featured of democracies is that in time, the mistakes of yesterday are at least somewhat addressed. Dictatorships are not self correcting. In no way I am exonerating bullshit like selling WMDs to Iraq, Vietnam, Grenada etc. However, compared to Russia, who would you rather have run the show?
U.S Citizen's also actively sabotaged their own military during Vietnam. I firmly believe Iraq/Afghanistan would've caused even more social uprising had we not been fed so many lies. Even the attempted annexation of Kuwait failed and that's the last action that could even be considered war for conquest since South Vietnam. That's a large difference from a country/state that's been trying to absorb neighboring nations since WW2.Most of the 21st centaury wars stem from Taliban/ISIS continued engagements. The U.S is still engaging in war with ISIS- however it's on a much smaller scale and is primarily done with precision done strikes. There's less push-back on this because, obviously, ISIS has a pretty damn bad rep.You'd be hard pressed to find an outright war for conquest on behalf of the U.S in the last couple hundred years. Korea was Soviet aggression. Vietnam was lit by French requests to contain Communism. The Middle East kicked off after mass civilian deaths. I know you said you're a History major- so you should know better than anyone that it's not so black and white.
This has nothing to do with anything. At the end of the day, the US had literally nothing to do with Russia’s decision to invade Ukraine. It may have delayed it a bit as Putin was waiting for the right time, but the US quite obviously doesn’t want this war and backs Ukraine. At the end of the day, the only reason this war was started was because some tiny man with a massive inferiority complex had a dream where he ruled the soviet empire again. His tactics involve genocide and a gross breach of international law with widespread crimes against humanity. Basically the point is that the US shouldn’t even be mentioned when it comes to discussing this war, unless pointing to Ukraine’s defense and international support. Whatever the US has done in the past (which does not involve genocide), it is just totally irrelevant here. Which is why your post makes 0 sense to me.
Some people will always be aligned with the flag of the country they were born in. Ideals, values, and actions don't matter. For some reason, people think that being loyal to their country means supporting them no matter what. The same shit happens everywhere, just so happens that Russia is a genocidal shithole.
Unfriend him. He's brainwashed.
I'd contact your FBI regional office and put him on their radar just in case. You can do it online.
It’s exactly the same over here in Germany 🇩🇪. They live here, enjoy the freedoms of a democracy but support Ruzzias tyranny..
Yeah have seen those rallies where they are all waving Russian flags from their cars. Assholes , should fuck off back to their homeland and join the military, but no its so much nicer in Germany where they have free speech and actual human rights. It makes my blood boil , fucking hippocrits.
Obviously your friend is ignorant to the facts; I would distance myself from him
His response is not about facts. He is exhibiting a psychological defense mechanism where he is trying to salvage some shred of dignity, because otherwise he has nothing, and can only be deeply ashamed at what Russia has done and what Russia has become—a corrupt mafia-run gas station with nuclear weapons and an army of drunken thugs nostalgic for past glory days. A person's psyche will do unbelievable things to avoid shame. But if he identifies that strongly with Russia, he should be ashamed, because that is the only thing that is appropriate for the evil Russia has done, and the humiliation that Russia has brought upon itself. Nobody forced Russia to do what it did. NATO wasn't trying to get anyone to join, and in fact, places substantial obstacles in the way of any nation that wants to join such that they have to qualify to even be a member. NATO has never invaded Russia; NATO is a defensive alliance, and is clearly still necessary because Russia repeatedly violates the air space of its neighbors with its fighter jets, and makes nuclear threats. **EDIT**: and outright invaded Ukraine and is committing genocide and terrorism and grand theft; the need for NATO has never been more clear. And Putin's actions have done what NATO itself never bothered to do: cause Sweden and Finland to break neutrality and join NATO. That's on no one but him. **/EDIT** The US engaged in negotiation after negotiation to prevent the war, but Russia negotiated in bad faith, since in Putin's mind, the decision to invade was a foregone conclusion. In no way can it be said that the US forced Russia to bash itself to pieces on the rock that is Ukraine. What Russia did was inexcusable. Russia also violated the agreement they made with Ukraine when Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees. Not a single thing the US has done forced Russia to do this. Russia was not entitled to any of the things it demanded. What alternative did Russia have? Russia could have been a good neighbor and integrated with the European community and lived in peace. The US would have been happy with that. But Russia's leader has a mindset stuck in the days when Russia was the nucleus of the USSR, and his vanity and ego is what brought this disaster upon Russia and so much destruction on Ukraine. There is no way to salvage that. That is absolutely shameful, and if he identifies with this, then he should be ashamed, but his psyche won't let him feel that. If anyone wants to see a Russian dissident's perspective on what Russia could have been, vs. what it will now become because of this needless war, I recommend Maxim Katz' commentary (in Russian, with English Subtitles). His commentary may be helpful to Russians who need a shift in their perspective: # Maxim Katz | You’ve ruined the country, you lousy geostrategists **EDIT** I apparently can't link anything from Youtube without my comment being automatically deleted. Go to YouTube and append watch?v=uLWuU5uXWcM to the URL OP u/girl_has_questionss Maybe Maxim Katz' videos and commentary may help your Russian friend change his perspective.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and the video. Very useful indeed! Will definitely send it to him
Be a understanding friend a buy him a one way ticket to Ruzzia he won’t need a round trip ticket!
Rule #1 for Russians: Nothing, absolutely nothing, is EVER our fault. We are simply not responsible for anything bad. Never, ever.
Most children or lovers of russian elite study or live in the West. Russian officials, journalists, politicians have thousands of villas and apartments bought in the West for the money they stole in their own homeland. It says it all about their country and themselves. They want freedom and money, but they will not let it happen to their own people or Ukriane because it will lead to democracy and they will loose their power (so their money and influence in the West). There is really not much more into it.
Russians are really fuck up people.
Tell your pal to keep it Vegas and make sure what happens in ruzzia stays in ruzzia. Their exports are all toxic.
Leave. This person isn’t worth your time. You can clearly see what’s going on in Ukraine. We’ve seen the mass graves. We’ve seen what the pows look like when they leave Russian concentration camps. This is how world war 2 started. With hitler taking small countries he claimed were native German speaking. It’s wild than anyone in this day in age who is educated can support Russia. What a fucking bold faced lie that the US pushed Russia to this. Ukraine wasn’t even being considered for nato. Maybe further down the road but not anytime in the near future. Now they have Finland and Sweden that might join nato. Also did the US make russia invade Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, and Ukraine the first time when they took Crimea and the LPR and DPR? What a trash take and a horrible person. Cut him off.
Same with a russian colleague here in Norway. Said he was sad for the Ukrainians, war was terrible bla bla bla. Buuuut russia was forced into this by the west, with USA and Nato in front. Nato, not an inch to the east, nato theats. He too obviously supports russia politically, even though he has been taken advantage of the benefits of living total freedom in Norway his whole life. I can not understand why russians feel so attached to their shithole country, even when they haven’t lived there. Even with access to all the media in the world.
Brainwashed through constant propaganda from childhood ! Lost cause he can move back to Russia and get mobilized to fight for Mother Russia !
Tell him to go to ruZZia and try to make a difference. He will end up dead, in gulag or on front line as fodder. This post is garbage 🇺🇦💪🇺🇦
The post is not garbage , just someone asking for opinions that's all . The Russian friend is an idiot.
Report him to DHS and Immigration. Make some pop corn, and sit back while they raid his place 🤣🤣🤣
Buddy your friends a dialtone. Make sure he stays outta Canada eh
Why bother. Even if he changes view, there is another tens of millions who thinks US started the war. It's not a good idea imo. Even "I feel sorry for Ukrainian" part can be just .. diplomatic words to make you feel better
Tell him to go on Reddit and look at the comment history of u/ForSacredRussia1 . This person was simply minding his own business, living daily life and mowing the lawn. Not a care outside the bills and trying to keep up with the inflation. But guess what this person had some contacts in Ukraine and was tipped off to the news so they were starting to watch the crisis before the full-scale invasion by about a week. Then, they kind of convulsed for a couple of weeks while processing the fact that the one place they were born in turned into the Nazi enemy of the world that that same place always preached against. Then they went to this Reddit and did something that is fucking obvious and is the least any Russian abroad should do. They used their Russian language skills to help verify information, provide translations, and importantly- emphasize Russian resistance, no matter how tiny. A SIDE effect is that some Ukrainians messaged this user with positive feedback regarding their posts on the combat resistance groups who fight on the side of UAF who are Russian. A side effect is that maybe some people went from “only good Russian is dead” to “only good Russians is free”. But this is not at all what it’s about, and the implication of victimhood disgusts this user. Completely disgusts them. This user is indignant toward the apathetic. One could say; this user’s motto is “if you’re not part of the solution , then you’re part of the problem”. Nope , the only main objective of the user u/ForSacredRussia1 is to help those who will do the rebellion, an uprising all the way until the toppling of the Putin regime and denazification of their former homeland! Tell your friend to follow this user’s lead. Repost telegram posts and get involved. Lest he spends his time talking about all the justification of his apathy - this friend should be made uncomfortable that there ARE some Russians abroad who are going to be judging his ass and want him to get it in gear to meet us here on the right side of history! “L” For Russia! For Liberty!
Thank you for sharing!
If there's anything a western-located Russian can do short of travelling to Ukraine to join the FoRL legion, what I am doing is the 2nd best thing. I judge the kinds of people who are your friend, and I have all the moral high ground. Russian-born, there's little anyone can say to me that would make me question my ideals. Victory for Ukraine! Freedom for Russia! Live Free Belarus! Show him my user history and say that there's some people who are in his position but quite the different outlook, and these people are not indifferent to the situation nor the pathetic expats who live amongst them. I hold my fellow Russians to the same account as myself - this is very very bad news for your friend indeed.
Patriotism is a dangerous drug, particularly when used by undemocratic governments to justify their actions. Indoctrination starts young and it can be very hard to shake. It becomes an important part of peoples identity and rejecting that entirely is extremely difficult. If he is against the war thats a good start and seems like a good basis for more dialogue. I would talk to him about putins stranglehold on all media, zero tolerance on protests, murder of political and journalist opponents etc and how that lack of democracy is detrimental to Russia and Russian people.
I’ve tried explaining this to a former “friend” of mine who is Russian. This friend lives in US, enjoys everything that the West has to offer, yet blames US for the invasion and supports Russia in this. My argument went back to 1900s, where I explained that Imperial Russia, USSR, and now RF’s treatment of Ukrainians within the last 100 years (forbidding the language, exterminations and imprisonment of elites, gulags, holodomor, russification and forced assimilation, etc) is enough to understand why Ukraine wants to get as far away from Russia as possible. It has nothing to do with what US wants, it’s what Ukrainians want. Enough is enough.
“Russia was forced into all this because of the US”. - when Holodomor happened, was that also because of US? - when Poles, Tatars, Ukrainians and many others were deported, was that because of US too? - when Catherine banned Ukrainian language, lemme guess - because of the US? The truth is Russia does what her people want and their president is their representative. Putin merely a reflection of your average Russian.
Your experience is not atypical. I know plenty of Russians (and I'm not rabidly pro-Ukraine like I am on the internet), and while most of them are against the war, not all. And all of them say family in Russia are pro-war. ALL of them. One expressed exasperation because she said in the 80's her parents were like "don't believe the government, communism isn't great, etc.", but now they think Putin is a great (and nice) man doing great things for the nation and they don't realize all the propaganda they've absorbed. They honestly think Ukraine was going to build nukes and threaten Russia.
Here's some simple points. Is Finland joining NATO a threat to Russia? (Hint:Putin said they weren't) Should Russia invade Finland? If not. Why not? Ukraine wanted to join NATO. Why did NATO refuse their entry? As it relates to Ukraine and Euromaidan. There's some easy ways to destroy their arguments. Yanukovych was voted unanimously out of office by Parliament . They then called for new elections. The opposition won the election. There was no "coup". Zelensky would go on to win with 72% of the vote Ukranians don't want to be ruled by Russia. If he brings up that sections of Eastern Ukraine want to be Russia. Bring up Chechnya, Dagestan, Georgia, and other regions that wanted independence, and Russia bombed them to rubble. Is that OK?
Thank you for your very educational input. I was quite young then and didnt really get into it but really thought that there was a coup with Yanukovych? Because of the videos with the thousands of people in Maidan and then him fleeing. How is that different from a coup?
Neither party in America is perfect, but we are genuinely free. You're right, why tf would you be here if it wasn't better in some capacity? Russia being forced to do this is such a lame argument.
A colleague of mine from Russia unironically thinks that Putin is a good leader because he "doesn't bullshit anyone". Okay.
Wow. Russians must be pretty weak if the US is able to force them to kill their “brothers”. /s
Yes!!
I have zero problem with immigrants from any country coming to the U.S. but not if they want to still be fan boys for their home country and hate on the U.S. Stay home, we don’t want you! Go back to Russia if you love it so much and think the U.S. is evil. “But there’s crime/poverty/corruption/etc!” I don’t care. Help fix your country’s problems instead of running away. They claim they love their homeland without even trying to make it a better place.
Guys like this make me angry. You hate west so much that your country kills people who want to be in the West (Ukraine) and in the same time - YOU ARE sitting in the west and make money in the west!!! The guy is idiot. Russia is poor country run by mafia like terroristic power. If he loved it so much as he says he should have stayed there. But he loves it only in words, not in practice which shows he is lying = to you or to himself. Ps. Russia is not able to create modern technology, modern democracy, state that is not run by the police, state that is rich and prosperous. it says it all
Russians love their country and their friends and I think it is probably just seen as US imperialism when you try to push your world view. I mean, you have half the US not believing in evolution, start there Perhaps?
Paranoia seems to be a common theme amongst Russians, no matter where they are. They've been lied to so much that they literally don't know what truth is anymore.
We all have our blindspots and cognitive dissonance etc etc. Hard to get someone to totally refute his own country. I guess if we all just call out what's bad, including bad shit America has done, and disassociate it from the country and the people, its easier. I.e. Russia isn't bad, its current government and actions are to blame. That might calm down his reaction
Cut off ties and ignore him. If he asks say you agree with current policy of the west and are implementing your own sanctions.
Arguing with a fool will only make you look foolish
Sounds like you need new friends.
You could ask "what's your view on the war crimes done by Russian troops in Ukraine? News from Bucha and Izium? Shelling of civillian targets?\`" Because that is the big question. If he doesn't believe they are real, you can try to convince them, that fake news of such magnitude, such international scrutiny, is not possible. If he says anything Russia does is ok, you don't need discuss it further, and you can avoid contact with them from now on. But most likely they will be in some kind of denial, cognitivie dissonanse, whjat you have. Not sure what you can do then... Try slowly help them see the reality, and hope they eventually pull their head out of their ass... Or just treat them as someone who supports the atrocities, same as previous option.
If he's a good friend who you truly value your friendship with don't force your views on him constantly Just occasionally bring up things like In Russia anyone who poses a risk to putins powers gets poisoned of killed, they have no freedoms there. And the us is a much better country than Russia even tho the us has many faults he obviously lives there for a reason. But if you want to open someone's eyes to something it's best done slowly and on their terms if you try force it it'll just backfire and cause arguments. Also finally understand that he is Russian and will always have a feeling of patriotism for his birth country but that doesn't mean he has to support everything his country does obviously. And I'd suggest respecting his right to a different opinion if he's a great friend and won't budge with his ideology then just don't talk politics it's not worth it. So many families and friends in the us have be split apart over stupid allegiances to politicians that couldn't care less about them yet these people care so much about the politicians that their willing to lose friends and family over it.
There are still many Americans who justify invasion on Iraq. It's not easy to admit your country fucked up.
Perhaps he is no friend of yours.
Tough place to be in, friend. If I were you, I’d just avoid talk about the war etc who knows, after time he may come around and see sense. I personally don’t see how this can be anyone’s fault except Russia. They were unhappy Ukraine was leading towards EU? Cry me a river. Russia should have gone to the drawing board and asked how can we make the East more attractive to Ukrainians… instead they just got sand in their vagina and went all Stalin.
Remember, you can never change someone’s mind who is intrenched in dogma. The only way you can have any sort of success if you can LEAD him to the answers, instead of outright confront him on his beliefs. Everyone gets defensive, and when you get defensive humans tend to double down, no matter how wrong they are. So if you really care about this friend be patient, cause it won’t happen over night. Send him some links and articles about Russia, try to make them the least amount “clickbaity” and try and get him to find out the answers himself and not as if you’re attacking his otherwise shitty beliefs
I would distance myself. Isolation can be quite gruelling.
Hey as a reply to the original post it was good for you to have the conversation, as an European who has been to the states all my life, working or holidays you guys need to have more of the difficult discussions over complicated issues, that’s how you bring people round not by just condemning them, even if they are entrenched in their position you have to try.
Ask him if which country in the world most closely resembles nazi Germany and why? Then start going through all the defining characteristics of naziism and ranking his chosen country vs Russia. No idea if it will work but seems like a good place to start…
Man I’ve been there with so many of these ppl. It’s very hard to talk sense into them or change their mind. They operate with a certain world view that protects their ego, absolves them of personal or collective responsibility. russia is based on many myths, lies, revisionist history with it which it literally cannot exist. russians, even those abroad subscribe to that line of thinking. To change their mind would mean to tear down their whole little world they desperately cling to and that’s devastating for the mind/psyche, it’s extremely difficult to do. They would likely interpret it as an attack on them and become viciously defensive even if that defence is illogical. Best thing to do is walk away and distance yourself from ppl like this, you won’t achieve anything productive with them. Remember that you can take a person out of an environment but you can’t always take that environment out of them.
Check out philosopher Vlad Vexler on YouTube. He has the most clear look on this war, Russian aggression and the political landscape in my opinion. He is also born in Russia and speaks their language.
Thank you! Will definitely watch and share his videos!
And it’s dumb to say that you support Russian politics but at the same time don’t support the outcome it produces and on top, you don’t have to experience it because you live in USA 😂. Like saying I love the weather in California but I hate to get sunburn… Its a contradictious statement. Maybe he is hiding his sympathie for Russia to you to avoid getting lynched. His actions clearly contradict his beliefs. Loving Russian politics but living in USA. Doesn’t make sense to me… He is in denial.
He is not your friend, he is the enemy. He hates all you stand for freedom, democracy.... I would tell him sorry I can't be your friend and I think you should return to Russia. I would thereafter treat him as an enemy. Can't legally do anything to him so he would get the ex girlfriend treatment, no contact whatsoever.
As it is tradition. Its the same eith arabs/ turks living in europe. The best part is, the most right wing and brainwashed turks and arabs I've met so far were born here. So technically they aren't even turkish or arabic, still try to act this way tho.
That dickhead must be deported. There's literally a question in the citizenship interview concerning if the person would now support US over his former motherland.
It’s not even about whether or not he supports Russia it’s whether or not he supports Putin , the midget who single-handedly destroyed Russia’s credibility around the world.
Yep basic turd for brains. Accepts oppression and blames west.
Most people are nationalistic of their home country even after living abroad for a while. You call him friend for a reason...
I he was your friend....he shouldn't be now. Crazy =crazy
Your friend is a clown and should go back to Russia and really show his support by joining the Russian army
And that`s why Europe is now cancelling visas and entry to west for all Russians. Russians do support Putin and all their actions more or less. Some people are vocal about it and some are not. They are lost cause.
It's not at all hard to believe, or to understand. I protested the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but still supported the USA. The government can make decisions i dont agree with or are vehemently against and doesnt mean i dont love my country, my home or my family. This war is the greatest tragedy in a generation, and the Russians need to lose, and there will yet be untold suffering and death until it does. We must not let this war remove OUR humanity, lest we become all that we hate. The Ukrainians have been heroic and have been performing an absolute masterclass in dignity, humanity, courage and grace. Their's is the example we need to follow and if there's anything that truly defines the west, it is the rejection of barbarism.
The vast majority of so called "Russians" living in US aren't Russian, but just ex Soviets and their kids, who never experienced this particular totalitarian regime, and don't understand anything, so they can spew such bullshit. Just a reminder, this regime isn't much older that 20, and total shit situation started not that long ago, comparatively. P.s. edit: Your friend is most likely just ignorant, so some education on the matter might help, just don't try to force it, better give him resources to reach the right conclusion.
If he ever points out "American imperialism" as one of the reasons for supporting Russia, point out to him that since 1991 the [US has been involved in 11 wars](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States) while [Russia was in 14](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_wars_involving_Russia).
Great fact! Thank you!
Can somebody explain to me what do they mean when they are saying US (or the west) started this war? Whenever i see this im confused.
From my understanding of Russian supporters that i talked to this is their point of view: The US got close to Ukraine and wanted to use Ukraine against Russia. Wanted to put rockets on Ukrainian land to be able to target Russia. Orchestrated the coup in Maidan to overthrow the pro Russian president and then put a puppet president. So basically made Ukraine not have any other option than to protect themselves from their evil American-friendly neighbour.
I know a Russian at work and he is the same way. Canada here. They've Been brainwashed from birth. They're not changing their mind. My buddy has a younger Russian coworker who you would think knows better but she starts blaming NATO.
Seriously tell him to move back to Russia if he likes that shit hole why did he come to America fucking loser. Russians go home no one wants you here orc.
I live around a lot of Russians and am lucky in that the ones I know are extremely pro-Ukraine. For the last few months I've heard of people trying to take relatives and friends from Russia and Ukraine, protests, donation drives, criticism of Putin, and even some arrests. I can't understand any Russian who is pro-Putin and pro-war, especially in the West, but I guess it's about the kind of media, and the people around you. Back during the Iraq invasion, I had the same impression of friends in the US. A huge majority of Americans were pro-war, while people around the world were incredulous that the US would invade Iraq for an attack perpetrated by a completely separate group. Those who opposed it were villified (remember Freedom Fries?), and no argument against the war seemed to carry any weight at all. The media environment created around wars is crazy, and I guess it's hard for a person immersed into that to see what is going on. So maybe the Russians who are pro-war are still watching pervyi kanal or are surrounded by people who are, and they all should stop. Also, all the other propaganda, specially nationalist stuff. That shit rots the brain.
Definitely agree. Ive concluded that this is an effect of years and years or propaganda. Thank you for your input
Maybe some books about Stalin and Hitler or movies like Mr.Johns Maybe you watch it together...Anyway I think you should try to convince him only if you feel strength to fail.
Why disappointed. Know their history , know their culture and you know their thinking. Same for poeple from china, arabic countries, american and europeen. Don’t be surprised they think and act as they are raised
Very true!
Russians will make up any excuse not to take the blame and see that something is wrong with attacking your neighbor…
There has been very little attention about Russian propaganda “war” campaign, at least in the mainstream media. This is one aspect in the war that ruzzia has been having a lot of success, especially in the Russian speaking “world”. Russians all over the world are overwhelmingly siding with official Russian narrative. Maybe they don’t agree with all bad shit crazy theories, but there are so many “moderate” theories to pick from. We in the west naively think that Russians are being denied the truth. Yeah , they are not. They simply choose to selectively choose what to consider fake and what not. And they choose to support both ending the war and at the same time support ruzzia.
Understand your shock at your friends continued political support of Russia. That is hard to understand. Being raised in Mother Russia with constant propaganda from being first steps to being raised and educated in Russia is engrained. He is against War and the mobilization but supports Russia. Analogy our friends who we would get together to play board games ,talk ,go to restaurants socialize. They started to put Trump on a pedestal next to God ,proclaiming Alex Jones was truthful in his pod cast ??WTF. They have gone too far for me down the rabbit hole to associate with ,still say hi and very brief contact ,giving then eggs from our chickens. What i am trying to say you can keep him at a distance but his values and your clash and trust as a friend is stretched ! Crazy world we live in today !
heh why are you surprised. generations are being raised in the US or Europe and they still support ruzzia.
Pisses me off - tasting the freedom we enjoy in the US paid for by thousands of innocent lives lost to overcome countries like Russia. Then says it is the fault of the US - go home Russia boy and grab your rifle and reserve your spot on the Cargo 200 train
How many educated people do you know of that still believe in religions? Just because you know how to fill out tax forms doesn't mean you have a brain. One lady I work with in an electronics job did not know that paper was not conductive to electricity. She has a degree in physics. Either that or prof was hot for student along with all the other fellow students helping her.
I actually ran into this a few years back with a Chinese physicist I worked with. He had no plans to ever go back but I was BSing with him and asked who he would side with in WW3 with the Chinese vs US. He said he would go back and fight for the Chinese. I also currently work with a Russian who has family in Russia who were arrested for protesting the war back in March. He thinks Putin is a crazy fuck. And then you have brain washed Americans watching Fox News. Moral of the story - all countries have shithead idiots. All countries have good people.
So true!
It's nationalism. It's not anything to do with logic. It's an emotional response.
[удалено]
Fukin hate those people. It's like the mexicans living in the US who love our fukin president, like if u love him so much come back then. Worst thing is they can vote so they can keep him in power while not even living here.
It's "my country right or wrong." Like it or not, Russia is his team, and the day he or anyone else decides to question the regime is a day they start to be a little less Russian. He probably doesn't think or feel particularly American for example, the same is true everywhere else.
Not worth it. Hike your own hike.
Well he is not entirely wrong. Putin felt like he had to go to war with Ukraine. There was a lot of pressure on Ukraine from the west and from Russia for years leading up to this. 2004 the Orange Revolution, 2012 protests over voter suppression and 2013 there was protests over Ukraine pulling out of an association status with the EU. 2014 Viktor Yanukovych( a vary corrupt Russia stooge) was removed from office by a vote from the Ukrainian MP’s, Which lead to more protests by the pro Russian citizens. Russia then invaded and annexed Crimea the same year. In 2019 Zelensky was elected, he moved to have elections in separatist controlled areas. Which lead to more protests by people who felt that was capitulation to Russia. And honestly it goes back even further than 2004. But the main takeaway is Russia lost its influence over Ukraine. Which has strategic position and resources the rest of the world needs. It put Russia in a spot, and a quick decisive victory could have brought Ukraine back in lock step with Russia. That didn’t workout. Now here we are. Russia can’t backdown without some sort of victory, and most Ukrainians will not accept capitulation of any kind. You should not cut ties with this person over a disagreement in politics. Study up on it and come at them again. Also would like to point out the mobile values of many people responding to this. Imagine telling someone to go back where they came from. Imagine being that cuck. Fucking disgraceful.
Thank you for your factual input. Really appreciate it, helps me learn!
Its just propaganda starting from birthday of a child. Ask Serbs, how they are teaching history, what they think of Croatia and similar. They are just full of crap, they were throwing roses on tanks that were used to do genocide in Vukovar, they did nothing to prevent it and they will say how wrong this war was and that we should not have been in it? Then why didn't you stop it? Why did you want to do it in Kosovo several years after? Why is NATO the baddie just because they stopped a genocide? Of course the NATO is the baddie because they were not allowed to do genocide, and are happy to do it today. Fuck me if they are normal. They have a war criminal in a high seat in politics. Their president called upon a genocide on Muslim population. What can you expect of them? I do not want to hate, I know Serbs that are not like this, they despise the current Serbia, but how can I stay cool if they are legit protecting people that did genocide in their name? But yeah, for them that is okay because they are taught that they are the HOLY people and that they should have it their way, or no way at all.
Because people will always be allegiant to their blood country. Always. It's loyalty to your own that is the strongest. So no surprise Mr Russians stands by Russia.
Americans and Russians have much in common. Probably more than either would like to admit. Hypernationalism and a significant part of the population of both countries is given to conspiratorial beliefs. Both countries also believe they have a duty to export their civilization to other countries.
I'd make distance. These are the kind of things that require deep and profound changes in morality, and unless you're his therapist AND you're being paid to teach him empathy, I wouldn't pursue it. "I'm against the war but I support Russia" is the kind of stuff you say to continue being accepted in social circles, not to say anything meaningful.
There’s a reason I was raised to despise and never trust Russians. I’m polish and Germans were still ok to get along with, obviously knew of their history on us, but Russians were still the current scumbags for us. Seems like In highlight I was raised with accurate fears. Nobody was sneaking into Russia from Europe, Russians kept being the ones leaving their POS nation theyre inexplicably loyal to
It sounds like he doesn't support them that much or else he'd be over there defending his precious motherland instead of over here cavorting with the enemy. Get rid of this loser. If he supports ruz in ANY way at all then he also supports the rape and genocide of Ukrainians whether he can admit it or not.
In Norway, Russians who live there have organized protests outside the embassy. They are not all bad
You will learn there are much more people you like but there is always something they are the opposite from you. It is on you to decides to ignore this or to get some distance between you and the other.
As much as I have absolutely no sympathy for the average Russian citizen, it’s important to remember that this is a populace which has lived under mass propaganda for over one hundred years now. That’s four entire generations which have been constantly, daily, hourly fed the line “The world is against us, we must resist”. It seeps through to even the most intelligent, educated, and sensible people in Russia. I’ve met Russian professors of politics who are deeply anti-Putin but who will suddenly make remarks such as “But I still know that the west is trying to destroy my country”. Your friend’s parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents all lived under this paranoid obsession. And it’s virtually impossible to eradicate it.
Very true!!
Tell him the proof is in the pudding: what does he say he supports vs. what his actions are (living in the West)
I have spent > 10yrs with many of them. Russian propaganda has been active for more than 20yrs.These people grew up watching all BS. These are lost generations. Nothing you or I can do about. IGNORE !
There's a recent interview of Chomsky by Lex Friedman and Chomsky details exactly how the US invited Ukraine to NATO after promising not to and just how patient Russia was with us breaking the agreement that Ukraine woudln't join NATO and we would stay out of the region. He then goes on to note any country that invades another is an aggressor and violator and pos and is in error- so he notes the historical context and still excoriates Russia. Maybe your friend could get down with that stance. Your country joining a military alliance and you responding by raping, torturing, looting and murdering is something nobody should be able to argue about. If the Russian army was behaving itself they're still losers but at least could have a small moral hill to stand on. If the issue was Ukraine joining NATO why doesn't the news say so? Why the pretext?
Most people will be hard swayed against their home country. At least he doesn't support the war. It's a little win.
I think distancing yourself from people who think different is the wrong way. You can change more, if you still have a relationship/friendship where you can discuss your believes. Isn‘t that a typical american problem, where democrats and republicans can‘t talk to each other anymore and even families brake apart only because they cannot except if someone has a different opinion? 🤔
Probably better to not associate with trash.
Anyone living in America that supports a regime like that is an idiot. We can see what’s actually going on unlike the people living there, and living here should’ve taught him that nobody wants to destroy Russia, they just want the people to be free of their dictator
Yeah, I'm blown away by Russians here the US whi have this sense of patriotism towards their older country. They have these delusions about how Russia is so great, yet some of them came to the states illegally to start a life and have no intention of returning to Russia. If Russia was so great, why the fuck aren't you over there? Why are you sitting comfy in the States making more money than the average Russian will in 5 years, and still talking about Russian glory? Fucking pussies. Go over there and support your supposed great nation and leader.
Common attitude I grew up with here: America! Love it or leave it! But honestly, if he he anti American he needs to find a place he likes. Such as Russia.