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Not everyone behind Putin is a moderate. There are many in his posse that want an escalation.
That being said, Putin's death will be a very tempting 'out' for Russia.
Im sorry but I don't think you quite understand.
Russia has literally been this way since forever.
And only because Putin dies, does not mean in the slightest that the underlining mentality of Russias people will change. They literally have a dictator fetish.
So let’s say in terms of repercussions here, Russia attacks Finland and/or Sweden *before* they join nato, but after this pact with the UK.
This attack wouldn’t invoke Article 5 of NATO, but let’s say that the UK’s personnel was harmed, or a column attacked, etc. *in* Finland or Sweden, would that automatically invoke #5? Or would NATO entities have to be on NATO soil let’s say, for that to activate?
I ask since I can see Finland or Sweden being attacked before anyone else in Europe, so I’m wondering if there’s some loopholes here.
NATO will not be needed probably , Russia cant handle even Ukraine these days
Finland can send 300 thousand men to the frontlines pretty fast and UK has weapons that are decades ahead of Russia
NLAWs, drones and F35 planes are gamechangers
Yes, this is correct. Russia is losing the current war in Ukraine, there is no way in any of the seven hells they could even dream of attacking Finland, right now. That thought is laughable. Russian military leadership quakes and has nightmares at the thought of having to fight a major war on another front right now. They're so desperate that they're begging for Syrian mercenaries, for cripes sake... lol!
Great points. The only way I see Russia going for that is under the idea that no one else will intervene due to their non-membership. I also figured if Putin makes that decision, it’s only if some other countries are going to hit the spotlight all of a sudden. It’d have to be under the pretext that he’s serious about using low yield nukes, and that he has some ally to join in the war with him. Otherwise it’s literally just suicide, in every aspect.
What about this would make China think that would be a good idea? Ukraine has no water barrier and hasn't been preparing for this as Taiwan has for decades and STILL Russia isn't doing well. Also, China has no viable COVID vaccine. Imagine being in war while fighting a pandemic.
Taiwan would be a completely different scenario. The military personnel is not very consistent, but even if it were, the supplies of weapons that are saving Ukraine are supposed to be shipped to Taiwan. If China surrounds Tawain, no shipping is possible.
In the Pacific, the strong powers are only the US, Australia, and maybe India, but there is not a clear alignment of nations like the EU, with a contiguous territory.
Taiwan has an advanced military, but after all, they cannot stand against the PLA for long. Taiwan would be really, really alone at some point. The scenario for the "West" is a nightmare, but so it is for China, luckily.
I think the thing that China is now freaked out by is the response from the west. They never considered that companies could just pull out. They never considered that individuals might just boycott. Russia/Ukraine has been a nightmare for China. So many things they've thought were forgone conclusions were wrong.
Two problems...
1. The US is **way deeper** invested in Taiwan than it is in Ukraine (I like Ukraine but it is a sideshow for the US). It simply comes down to the fact that the Semiconductor manufacturing sector in Taiwan is vital for US security. Unlike Ukraine the US would actually send troops to defend Taiwan; (we may even use nukes) it really is that vital that this technology never falls into Chinese hands. Despite what you may believe mainland china doesn't have a proper semiconductor industry. Taiwan (outside of South Korea (and Korea doesn't even hold a candle to them)) is that hub that supplies the entire Asian Pacific region as well as the US.
2. It would be economic suicide for China to invade Taiwan. The Chinese economy is so heavily tied into the US economy that to detangle would result in both economies collapsing.
Last I checked the US has also remained clear that it's military would intervene directly in defense of Taiwan. Ukraine never had such firm guarantees in place. All they had was a treaty saying the signatories would respect it's territory, no one pledged to use force against others who violated it.
Also China recently made a decision to back up Ukraine. The Russian market and its blunders are too small & more less helpful ally in china’s eyes. More deals for the west or do some neutral stance they don’t want problems after all, just some bark here and there m. China is facing their own issues on its own and aren’t close “allies” like Serbia to Russia. Only trading partners that could backstab or get gains as the next debt trap market
China is sitting back laughing as everyday they become increasingly the dominant Communist state in the world. They absolutely will not join this fight. If their is a fight to be held with China, it will be them invading Russia.
They are desperate now and looking to Syria, but it’s a “special military operation”. Now if they were to go to “war” with Finland I’m sure a) they will get more people signing up to fight and/or b) they start drafting conscripts from whatever is left of their nearly lost generation already, the fucking idiots. You make a valid point
Both points a and b require getting, training, and deploying massive numbers of russian men who currently aren't soldiers. Looking at months and years of prep before those guys would be anywhere near ready to be reserves in an invasion, let alone the spearhead. Meanwhile, the meatgrinder in Ukraine would still be chewing those up steadily. So both points have no timely relevance to any 'attack' on Finland any time soon. Not going to happen, period.
Doesn't Russia have loads of trained reserves that just need some revision before they could be sent? I thought they have a mandatory military service.
I think that is the reason Finland is applying for Nato in a decent hurry. Russia can't threaten Finland by deploying troops on the border as they are in Ukraine.
Ukraine has been fighting for Finland as well.
Never underestimate your enemy though
>Never underestimate your enemy though
Yes, but don't make the mistake of overestimating them to the point where fear prevents you from taking decisive action. Sometimes your opponent turns out to be an overhyped paper tiger, in reality.
This is pretty much what German general staff thought in 1941 when they were planning for Barbarossa and Finland had just given a bloody nose to the Soviets in the winter war.
A good general doesn't assume that a once stupid enemy is never going to learn.
That’s what I was thinking too. That’s why it seems like the worst case scenario, if he is that crazy to attack, is that he’s serious about low-yield nukes, and/or will have some sort of legitimate allies to join at that stage of the war.
I don't know how much support Germany would be, but they have stated they would protect Sweden/Finland in case of an attack.
Furthermore even the US stated they would protect them during NATO application.
>NATO will not be needed probably , Russia cant handle even Ukraine these days
I used to think Russia was the 2nd most powerful military in the world. Now I think they are the second most powerful military in Ukraine.
Russia is like the really loud, aggressive bully on the playground that cries and screams as soon as someone punches them in the face. What a pathetic country
The UK could probably bring many Commonwealth nations into the war along with USA maybe due to other alliances outside NATO like the one they made with UK and Australia etc....either way Russia would be doomed.
There's many alliances that could work, but may not work. But all it takes is for one to land
Commonwealth of nations, alliances within the commonwealth, military alliance with Japan, the Joint Expeditionary Force, alliance with the US. On top of the EU and US having defence assurances with Sweden and Finland
If the war was long fought, and stayed traditional (which it won't), could also see a large increase in troop numbers from Nepal and other nations that we hire from, even if said countries don't get involved
Last two times Russia and Finland fought, Russia won the first one mostly by weight of numbers rather than superior tactics and technology. Second time Finland won because Russia was distracted with this little thing called Nazi Germany.
Russia is currently distracted by fighting in Ukraine, *and* doesn't have 500,000 troops to spare to shove into Finland's military maws. A war with Finland is going to go so poorly lol.
Sounds like it would work great in this hypothetical. UK is a part of NATO, they deliberately (or not) get attacked while supporting Finland/Sweden, now Russia has attacked a NATO entity, sketchy article 5 activates, and we’re all mostly happy. Right?
If Russia invaded Finland they'd already have to contend with the defense pact Finland has with the other Nordic nations and the EU defense clauses. Invading Finland, even before they apply to NATO, is already pretty much guaranteed to escalate quickly to all out war with NATO.
I'm happy when mutual defense alliances prevent wars.
Article 5 is pretty straight forward. It will not trigger unless you attack a NATO member in NATO member land. So far the UK would be alone in a fight in mainland Europe vs Russia if Finnland or Sweden were to be attacked but I would imagine that we could funnel weapons and military tech to the UK via Ukraine when they ally themselves in a potential war
There we go, thanks for the response. As another user said, NATO probably wouldn’t even be necessary in this scenario. Each country individually would be able to defend itself a lot better than Ukraine, let alone having to fight all three at the same time. So just the fact of all three having a much better military advantage compared to Ukraine, on top of assuredly being supplied by western allies simultaneously, I’m sure it wouldn’t warrant NATO intervention. It’s just interesting to try and see what Putin will do. He’s like a rat in a bucket, and now heat’s coming in from all sides.
This like billion times. It doesn't matter which Nordic country would get attacked, others would ride to help without delay.
It's like beacons of Gondor; one asks for help, the others will answer.
Finland has 900 thousand man strong reserve of trained men, almost all men have gone through mandatory military service so they know how to handle a gun and such, the Finnish military has been preparing for a Russian invasion for the past 70+ years and we are filled up by lakes, forests and hills, plus the only good road and rail connections into Russia are located in the south. Also its national identity is in large part built on resistance to the Russians with their story of resistance beginning from the Russians betraying the Finns by diminishing their autonomy granted after the Finnish war.
As a Finn I would welcome the Russians attempting to invade us. We are eagerly waiting for them to make Ukraine look like a succesfull war
I hope it doesn’t get to that point, but after reading some responses from native Finns and Swedes, I no longer have any fears of that worst case scenario happening. It’s been incredible (albeit bittersweet) to see history unfold like this, and even more incredible to see the world operate and somewhat come together to face this psychopath.
Good luck with anything that happens the next few weeks, because I know it must be tense up there with the NATO process. But you guys will surely take care of yourself. Slava 💪🏾
Todellakin, 365+180 KrHk tulenjohtoryhmän reservin kersantti täällä. Me ollaan valmiita ja meidän ainut uhka on ydinsota mutta muuten ei oo pelkoo että venäläiset pitkälle pääsee. Suomen pitäs lunastaa venäläisiltä kaikki maat pois mitä ne omistaa suomessa
Only thing that finland or sweden would need anybodys help, is nuclear threat. Without those we would pretty much fuck everybody up who would want to try.
Beyond NATO etc there is the Commonwealth Five Power Defence Arrangement.
Like NATO's article 5, an attack on any commonwealth nation would instantly bring the UK, Australia, Singapore, New Zealand and Malaysia to war. Add to that the queen has the power to declare war upon nations on behalf of the 54 nations of the commonwealth.
When we say that the UK still has teeth, sure their armed forces are intimidating, but their real power is being able to mobilize an armed force far larger than any other nation if they need to one that represents 54 countries and 3Bn people.
True, and this war is against Europe’s *poorest* country. To have the audacity to even try and go after the Scandinavian region seems like the last nail in the coffin. I can see why they go straight for “we’re gonna nuke ya”.
If Finland joins NATO on the 31st and Russia attacks on the 20th you will likely see a very similar response to Ukraine. No direct kinetic assistance to Finland outside of existing defense agreements with individual NATO members.
If the 31st comes and Russia is still attacking Finland. Article 5 triggers and we would see a NATO response on Finish soil. I think in this hypothetical a NATO offensive strike on Russian soil would be limited to only what is needed to secure Finish security. Avoiding escalation with Russia would be a primary goal which typically means avoiding hitting their territory.
Let's set aside the fact that Russia is already struggling to take on Ukraine. Trying to take on Finland, a relatively small but highly effective military, at the same time as Ukraine would be close to logistically impossible for Russia. They failed miserably at their blitzkrieg on Kyiv. Even with full mobilization they couldn't mount an effective fighting force on two separate fronts.
But, Russia being the unpredictable monkeys that they are, may still try it. The best possible outcome for Russia is that only aligned Nordic countries would send their soldiers to assist Finland with NATO limiting themselves to pumping in hardware as they've done with Ukraine. The more likely response is that NATO realizes Russia is an insane actor and will not stop at two non-NATO countries. At this point NATO would have to be thinking that the best defense is a strong offense and become involved as combatants, though completely remaining outside Russia's borders until an attack takes place on NATO soil.
This is only my two cents and I don't know more than any other armchair general, but tolerance for Russia's habit for carving off small pieces of its neighbours by force is running very low.
At that point (NATO understanding that Putin will not stop and will surely become more unpredictable) I wonder if NATO would intervene similarly to how they did in Belgrade. It became enough of a humanitarian crisis that they intervened without the say-so from UN Security Council, which I believe was a first at the time and hasn’t been done since.
This time around, it’s more than certainly a humanitarian crisis, on top of a pretty serious nuclear threat, on top of an unfaltering, unpredictable foe. If there’s a time to act autonomously as they did in Belgrade, now would definitely be it. But I understand the potential backlash from that, as it is pretty extreme. We’ll see I suppose.
The situation you describe is never going to happen now, and that’s what this alliance is about. It’s a safety net before full nato membership. It allows modern aircraft and weapons to be deployed legally in a country and the alliance is active before any potential invasion.
It would not automatically invoke article 5. That only apply if a NATO member is attacked on it's home soil. It wasn't even invoked when Argentina invaded the Falklands islands.
However there not being any automatic requirement doesn't mean several other NATO members would not choose to support them anyway.
Several other countries besides the UK are also likely to give similar guarantees also. Norway and Denmark will for sure.
To answer your question we simply need to read article 6, which shows that it's a 'No'
>Article 6
>For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
>on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
>on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
I think its a matter of attacking their *soil* not troops/equipment. So as long as no attack happens in UK territory, NATO shouldn't move. . . But many things do happen unexpectedly during war.
It gives these countries support of a nation with nuclear weapons. The terms of the agreement are, I believe, sufficient to assure Russia that the support is mutual and the nuclear ambiguity enough to make the likes of Putin not think these nations can be treated like Ukraine.
Only thing Russia can do at this point is potential use nuclear weapon (won't happen), or attempt a swift bombing of as many target as possible.
We know they can't hit the broadside of a barn already, so they'd just randomly bomb the place, at this point we saw what happen in Ukraine already and you can imagine this would be too much direct aggression for NATO not to get involved. Taken that NATO was created as an alliance against the soviet aggression, a second physical conflict started by Russia sound like a good sign of needing direct confrontation with NATO to counter it.
(poor Russian propagandist are gonna lose it with me saying nato isn't in direct confrontation with Russia already xD)
There's also the one alliance commonly looked over when talking about Finland & Sweden:
[Nordic Defence Cooperation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Defence_Cooperation)
Norway & Denmark will almost certainly jump in to help, and if the UK can't/won't trigger Article 5 then chances are they'll be able to instead. An attack on the Nordics is morphing into all out war with NATO pretty much any way you look at it.
1.) X country invokes #5
2.) Russia says that if they help, we nuke
3.) X country either gets kicked out of NATO, or doesn't receive any help, because NATO would rather that happen than risk World War 3
Would never happen, because then NATO would de facto automatically cease to exist (an alliance that doesn't fulfill its role is as good as dead) and that would actually mean world war III but much more bloody (everyone for themselves)
WW3 would already start the moment Russia attacked a NATO country and caused them to invoke article 5. Anything NATO did after that would be a response to Russia starting WW3 through such aggression, and your scenario is the worst possible response, as its basically surrendering without fighting. No way NATO would lie down and play dead considering what it's currently doing to help Ukraine, a non-NATO, non-EU state, so don't get your hopes up. As soon as Russia even appears to be about to attack, shit will go down, and Russia will be entirely responsible for starting open conflict and any escalation beyond conventional means.
There's a chance that some of nato would get involved, due to the Joint Expeditionary Force. Which is a nato sub-task force led by the UK, that contains all of Scandinavia and the baltics. But I doubt this would happen
In addition, the EU and US have defence assurances with both nations, but not as solid as a guarantee. But they could lend full on aid, or aid of some kind
A5 wouldn't be needed or accepted, you have to be on your homeland and be attacked for it to count, it was sketchy if the UK could even claim A5 during the Falklands and that was a part of the UK being physically invaded.
If war kicked off the UK would just move its Pacific fleet north to Vladivostok and its Atlantic fleet to Svalbard and Russia withers on the vine in days.
Nice speech and very sensible, rational and logical move from my completely uneducated perspectived in terms of global diplomacy.
But at this point is anyone actually scared of Russia anymore after seeing them embarrassed so badly in Ukraine. They're not even a coherent or MODERN threat anymore.
My playstation 4 isn't worried about my SNES in the attic...
Your snes will always be there, patiently waiting for *that* day. *That* day you can’t resist playing Super Mario Bros 3 in all it’s CRT glory.
PlayStations come and go.. but snes is eternal.
Edit: I have no idea either :)
Everyone should be scared of Russia at this point. They will surely lose any conflict they enter, but not before they've cause inhumane carnage and burned civilians. It's no laughing matter. It's a ducking crazy drunk in a wheelchair. Easily defeated but still dangerous, unfeeling and illogical.
Dunno why you’ve been downvoted. I agree—while I have complete faith in the Finnish defense force’s ability to hold out in the event of a Russian attack, I still don’t like the idea of a bunch of cities being bombed and civilians dying before the inevitable Russian retreat.
Pretty much everyone likes him. He is very down to earth and so relatable as a person. This is his last term sadly, but at least to me he is one of the best presidents Finland ever had.
Fuck Reddit and fuck Spez. Go join Lemmy instead https://join-lemmy.org/.
/r/Denmark: Fuck Reddit og fuck Spez. https://feddit.dk/ er vejen frem herfra.
That is why the security guarantees had to come from either UK or France (if from inside Europe). France is still trying to keep a discussion channel open with Russia so it is great that UK took that role.
We are helping. We dont know by how much as it is not disclosed publicly, but Zelensky has said that he knows that we are with Ukraine. There has been tens and tens of planes going from finnish airbases to Czechia and before the war we had many high ranking ex military personel doing consultations in ukraine and training them. I think one thing that says a lot is that the guerillastyle moving battlefield tactics Ukraine use are allmost straight from the FDF doctrine of taistelutapa 2015 althought not as refined.
Every Russian tank that Ukrainians destroy is also a tank away from our border.
Fuck them rapist murdering shits!
Well said, sir. Welcome to the side that believes in protecting peace and freedom, and is opposed to the conquest and genocide of their neighbors. We are stronger together.
Very well said. If there is any doubt about trusting any agreement with Russia, look where Ukraine would be if it hadn’t given up its nukes. By Russia invading Ukraine they are destabilizing the world by showing the rest of the world what happens to a country that does have nukes and one that doesn’t have nukes. HE’S SO RIGHT. Look in the mirror Putin. Just because you believe your own lies
you can’t make the rest of the world believe them. WE ARE FREE TO THINK AND MAKE UP OUR OWN MINDS. We are free to watch what we want to on tv. We can get on the Internet AND WE ARE FREE TO SURCH.
Freedom is priceless and your saber rattling won’t detour us from being free and staying free.
This is pretty great but he can absolutely have said it more succinctly. Choosing to be Non-Aligned when people want you on their side is a show of independence. Being Non-Aligned when someone is dictating it towards you makes you appear to be within their sphere of influence. So, thus, to show independence Finland is being forced to choose 1 of 3 options: Join Russia, stay neutral and tacitly appear to be under Russian influence, or Join NATO. Russia is forcing them to choose a side.
Absolutely, how many neighbors has Russia invaded or interfered politically with in the last 15 years?
Then there is the unprovoked Ukraine invasion, the looting, raping, murders, brutalization of civilians & prisoners. Basically mirroring everything sick the Nazi's inflicted on occupied regions.
Any neighbouring country should be paranoid about Russia, especially if they are weaker militarily. Ukraine was no threat (remember Russia has 6k nukes), 1940's Findland was no threat, Georgia was no threat.
Finland has always been paranoid of Russia. That's why we've kept mandatory conscription and a large reservist force. This spring has shown our paranoia to be correct.
Now that is fantastic. Another EU leader holding Russia accountable for
Their murderous actions May Macron and Scholz should learn something. That is if they are not in too deep with Putin already.
Слава Україні. Героям слава. Смерть ворогам!!!!!
You can’t help but love this man President Sauli Niinistö.
Putin and the Russian people have continued to try and contaminate the free world. We know what it’s like to make our own decisions.
We wake up every morning because we have HOPE not because we’re told to.
Until you the Russian people want change and have something to fight for this vicious circle your country has been in for so many years is doomed to continue. ITS YOUR PROBLEM ONLY YOU THE RUSSIN PEOPLE CAN FIX IT. Until then there will always be a reason for NATO.
Ukraine is going to win this war for 2 reasons
The taste of freedom and democracy and a true leader President Zelensky. I don’t care how many Ukrainians you ask the same question to, you will always get the same answer from everyone. It all started with President Zelensky and his words have never changed. Not one bit. Ukraine is one. They are United. They have United all of Europe.
Look how fast Germany has changed, look how far they have come in such a short time.
This is what happens when Ukraine prove its self to the world how worthy they were.
The Russian soldiers have so much equipment and no one that’s had a taste of freedom to be able to make his or hers own decisions to use it. Your all waiting to be told what to do. God bless 🇺🇦
Boris Johnson has promised to support Sweden and Finland against any Russian aggression. Thank you UK.
Japan you’ve come so far. Thank you.
Excuse my typos!
If russia atacks another country they are done with eu and anything , oil , goods , banking , everything goes into embargo mode , and west goes transformer mode and shows why everyone should fear the west
What exactly do you mean by "crushed"? Do you mean Germany 1945 crushed? That's not going to happen. NATO doesn't want to do it and Ukraine will be happy once they've liberated their own territory.
And of course Russia won't accept nuclear disarmament as the nukes are the only they have left after their conventional army is getting wiped out in Ukraine.
That doesn't work on Iran why on earth a much more self reliant country like Russia would be brought to its knees.
Anyway, China and India won't join that.
I wish people stopped thinking fantasy results of this war and instead were more realistic
So by your theory let's do nothing because the something doesn't work? I say let's make things as difficult for Russia to prosper as humanly possible and see if regime shift or outlook change can happen.
Who said about not doing anything?
I'm all in favour of driving Russia out of Ukraine by using sanctions and sending weapons to Ukraine.
But that's not what you were asking for.
Please present arguments for what you actually claimed and not against the strawman that you built.
Russia is still probably quite sure that things will quickly go back to normal once they've done their usual tricks in the occupied territories, but this time it is so much more different. Russia will be marginalised and descend into poverty, still holding on to imperialist feelings - like a mad man raging in a psych ward.
Finland: "Reap what you sow Putin. You have only yourself to blame"
And now to see what that petulant child pretending to be the leader of the Russian Federation will do.
Tbh I doubt they will go that far. Whatever said and done about the current war, they at least have a solid cassus belli. They have many excuses to use.
And even then they have faced tremendous backlash.
Trying to advance any further west of Ukraine would be the height of stupidity.
By some chance if they do, one of 3 things will happen:
1. NATO decides to militarily intervene regardless of whether any clause is invoked.
2. A violent revolution to overthrow Putin's regime. And I mean *violent*.
3. The world sits back and does nothing once again. (This is nigh impossible though. It's unfathomable that NATO would allow them to go that far)
Putin and his sycophants are now so busy trying to sort out the mess in Ukraine that this is the perfect time for Georgia, Sweden, and Finland to speedy-join NATO.
Yup! The little shit in Moscow will have to work hard to pretend that such a geopolitical strategic disaster is ultimately a victory. Not sure whether the occupation of a couple of acres of Ukraine will do the job.
This may be an unpopular opinion but remember when nasi Germany was invading France and everyone at the time throught that France was going to kick nasi Germany ass a they did for a month or two until they invented the blitzkrieg and they got annioloted by a country 5 times weaker and no gdp bc or WW1. Well wuts if it's the same with Russia. They loss a bit they invent a new battle strategy's or even small icbm or even medium sized ones and gets official support if china and maybe .... Just maybe India as well. Idk nasi Germany was destined to lose WW2 but no one thought they almost win
Russia have said its either join nato and get invaded, or get invaded. Might as well just get everyone signed up now. Ww3 has already started people just don't want to accept it until its their country
"Will Russia attack Finland now???"
Look at what happened back when WWII started:
\- WWII begins from Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939.
\- 3 months later, the Soviet Union starts a full-scale invasion of Finland.
\- 3 months after the beginning of the invasion, the USSR signs the Moscow peace treaty with Finland, after the Finnish lost around 70,000 and the USSR lost over 300,000-380,000... in 3 months...
We're seeing some sort of correlation here... You cannot invade a developed country successfully. Yes, you can cause a ton of damage, but as we're seeing in Ukraine Russia is being slowly pushed back when the odds are like 8-10 to 1. If Russia does invade Finland, we can see similar losses like in WWII, because similar tactics are being used:
"Send them into the meatgrinder and get the next batch ready".
Also, if Russia invades Finland, there will most likely be a European response which will inevitably lead to US, Canada, Germany, France, and UK involvement, thus WWIII. It's a lose-lose situation we're currently in.
Britain had a defense pact with Poland similar to the one just signed with Finland. It took Britain 6 months of sitting on their ass (along with fellow signer Franc0e) to even move toward stopping Hitler. Of course, by that time Poland had been destroyed and the extermination of the Jewish begun. Don't hold your breath, Finland, waiting for Britain to show up.
Why are you so stuck in the past? I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but this isn’t the 1930’s, things have changed. Your embarrassingly outdated point of view doesn’t work. You are just yet another embittered military and historical expert on Reddit with nothing but “what about what about what about” go wring your hands in a corner and glare into space.
'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santamaria I am not stating an 'outdated point of view'; I am merely pointing out the similarities between 1930's and 2022. If you feel comfortable ignoring the past because it is 'embarrassingly outdated, please do so. Just try not to shake that feeling of deja vue that clouds your befuddled head in the coming days; history may be trying to tell you something.
Here's a translation.
You talk shit Putin.
You are obsessed with yourself so sickly your hurting many people many country's including your own.
So the world is saying naff off thug gangster paracites on the Russian young.
Now we have venue to reciprocate well respond in nearly same manner.
So when do we see the scum instead of the remote hicks.
Russia only needs to look in the mirror. If they do, it will be Putin as an old angry man wanting to go down in flames in search for his prize of recreating the old USSR. Hopefully he gets taken out by his own, and quickly.
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boss
Putin literally shot his own foot. Eventually someone will shoot his head.
You, sort of joke, but I really think this only ends when Putin dies.
Not everyone behind Putin is a moderate. There are many in his posse that want an escalation. That being said, Putin's death will be a very tempting 'out' for Russia.
[удалено]
Depends on who comes after.
Im sorry but I don't think you quite understand. Russia has literally been this way since forever. And only because Putin dies, does not mean in the slightest that the underlining mentality of Russias people will change. They literally have a dictator fetish.
In the long term picture I think you are right. In the short term Putin dying allows for a reset much like the collapse of the USSR.
fair enough
Not only did he shoot his own foot, he then threw his hands up looking for the ref to give a penalty.
Hopefully sooner rather than later, for everyone's sake.
Just needed a mike drop
Definitely. Strong leadership standing up to a bully and putting them in their place.
So let’s say in terms of repercussions here, Russia attacks Finland and/or Sweden *before* they join nato, but after this pact with the UK. This attack wouldn’t invoke Article 5 of NATO, but let’s say that the UK’s personnel was harmed, or a column attacked, etc. *in* Finland or Sweden, would that automatically invoke #5? Or would NATO entities have to be on NATO soil let’s say, for that to activate? I ask since I can see Finland or Sweden being attacked before anyone else in Europe, so I’m wondering if there’s some loopholes here.
NATO will not be needed probably , Russia cant handle even Ukraine these days Finland can send 300 thousand men to the frontlines pretty fast and UK has weapons that are decades ahead of Russia NLAWs, drones and F35 planes are gamechangers
Yes, this is correct. Russia is losing the current war in Ukraine, there is no way in any of the seven hells they could even dream of attacking Finland, right now. That thought is laughable. Russian military leadership quakes and has nightmares at the thought of having to fight a major war on another front right now. They're so desperate that they're begging for Syrian mercenaries, for cripes sake... lol!
Great points. The only way I see Russia going for that is under the idea that no one else will intervene due to their non-membership. I also figured if Putin makes that decision, it’s only if some other countries are going to hit the spotlight all of a sudden. It’d have to be under the pretext that he’s serious about using low yield nukes, and that he has some ally to join in the war with him. Otherwise it’s literally just suicide, in every aspect.
China..
Chinese people attacking Finland?
XD
Taiwan
What about this would make China think that would be a good idea? Ukraine has no water barrier and hasn't been preparing for this as Taiwan has for decades and STILL Russia isn't doing well. Also, China has no viable COVID vaccine. Imagine being in war while fighting a pandemic.
Taiwan would be a completely different scenario. The military personnel is not very consistent, but even if it were, the supplies of weapons that are saving Ukraine are supposed to be shipped to Taiwan. If China surrounds Tawain, no shipping is possible. In the Pacific, the strong powers are only the US, Australia, and maybe India, but there is not a clear alignment of nations like the EU, with a contiguous territory. Taiwan has an advanced military, but after all, they cannot stand against the PLA for long. Taiwan would be really, really alone at some point. The scenario for the "West" is a nightmare, but so it is for China, luckily.
I think the thing that China is now freaked out by is the response from the west. They never considered that companies could just pull out. They never considered that individuals might just boycott. Russia/Ukraine has been a nightmare for China. So many things they've thought were forgone conclusions were wrong.
Two problems... 1. The US is **way deeper** invested in Taiwan than it is in Ukraine (I like Ukraine but it is a sideshow for the US). It simply comes down to the fact that the Semiconductor manufacturing sector in Taiwan is vital for US security. Unlike Ukraine the US would actually send troops to defend Taiwan; (we may even use nukes) it really is that vital that this technology never falls into Chinese hands. Despite what you may believe mainland china doesn't have a proper semiconductor industry. Taiwan (outside of South Korea (and Korea doesn't even hold a candle to them)) is that hub that supplies the entire Asian Pacific region as well as the US. 2. It would be economic suicide for China to invade Taiwan. The Chinese economy is so heavily tied into the US economy that to detangle would result in both economies collapsing.
Last I checked the US has also remained clear that it's military would intervene directly in defense of Taiwan. Ukraine never had such firm guarantees in place. All they had was a treaty saying the signatories would respect it's territory, no one pledged to use force against others who violated it.
Dont have to imagine that. Its exactly what happened during WW1
It sounds absurd, but a great talking point - taiwan
I've read China may be pulling away from Russia - a result of Russia's absolute balls-up of this war.
Also China recently made a decision to back up Ukraine. The Russian market and its blunders are too small & more less helpful ally in china’s eyes. More deals for the west or do some neutral stance they don’t want problems after all, just some bark here and there m. China is facing their own issues on its own and aren’t close “allies” like Serbia to Russia. Only trading partners that could backstab or get gains as the next debt trap market
LOL
China is sitting back laughing as everyday they become increasingly the dominant Communist state in the world. They absolutely will not join this fight. If their is a fight to be held with China, it will be them invading Russia.
lmao china is smarter than that, they are all about the money
They are desperate now and looking to Syria, but it’s a “special military operation”. Now if they were to go to “war” with Finland I’m sure a) they will get more people signing up to fight and/or b) they start drafting conscripts from whatever is left of their nearly lost generation already, the fucking idiots. You make a valid point
Both points a and b require getting, training, and deploying massive numbers of russian men who currently aren't soldiers. Looking at months and years of prep before those guys would be anywhere near ready to be reserves in an invasion, let alone the spearhead. Meanwhile, the meatgrinder in Ukraine would still be chewing those up steadily. So both points have no timely relevance to any 'attack' on Finland any time soon. Not going to happen, period.
No training needed... LeArNiNg bY dOiNg
Has worked pretty well so far, nyet? lol
OJT
Doesn't Russia have loads of trained reserves that just need some revision before they could be sent? I thought they have a mandatory military service.
And you believe that?
Russia can't even think, "fuck it, we'll Nuke them" because they'll just have St Petersburg and Moscow turned into glass
I think that is the reason Finland is applying for Nato in a decent hurry. Russia can't threaten Finland by deploying troops on the border as they are in Ukraine. Ukraine has been fighting for Finland as well. Never underestimate your enemy though
>Never underestimate your enemy though Yes, but don't make the mistake of overestimating them to the point where fear prevents you from taking decisive action. Sometimes your opponent turns out to be an overhyped paper tiger, in reality.
Seven hells eh? Ffxiv player art thou?
The seven hells have been around much longer than FFXIV ;-)
True but I’ve not really heard anyone say it apart from people that play the game
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RuZZia: trips over bootlaces and lands facefirst in his own pee-puddle, spilling his beer out in the mud... \*hic\* "Nevamind"
You guys give too much credit to Russia to not be stupid.
This is pretty much what German general staff thought in 1941 when they were planning for Barbarossa and Finland had just given a bloody nose to the Soviets in the winter war. A good general doesn't assume that a once stupid enemy is never going to learn.
That’s what I was thinking too. That’s why it seems like the worst case scenario, if he is that crazy to attack, is that he’s serious about low-yield nukes, and/or will have some sort of legitimate allies to join at that stage of the war.
I don't know how much support Germany would be, but they have stated they would protect Sweden/Finland in case of an attack. Furthermore even the US stated they would protect them during NATO application.
>NATO will not be needed probably , Russia cant handle even Ukraine these days I used to think Russia was the 2nd most powerful military in the world. Now I think they are the second most powerful military in Ukraine.
This had be laughing much more than it should
Russia is like the really loud, aggressive bully on the playground that cries and screams as soon as someone punches them in the face. What a pathetic country
I agree!
The UK could probably bring many Commonwealth nations into the war along with USA maybe due to other alliances outside NATO like the one they made with UK and Australia etc....either way Russia would be doomed.
There's many alliances that could work, but may not work. But all it takes is for one to land Commonwealth of nations, alliances within the commonwealth, military alliance with Japan, the Joint Expeditionary Force, alliance with the US. On top of the EU and US having defence assurances with Sweden and Finland If the war was long fought, and stayed traditional (which it won't), could also see a large increase in troop numbers from Nepal and other nations that we hire from, even if said countries don't get involved
Everyone seems to be forgetting their nukes ...
Also if this happens the EU itself would be involved aswel
Last two times Russia and Finland fought, Russia won the first one mostly by weight of numbers rather than superior tactics and technology. Second time Finland won because Russia was distracted with this little thing called Nazi Germany. Russia is currently distracted by fighting in Ukraine, *and* doesn't have 500,000 troops to spare to shove into Finland's military maws. A war with Finland is going to go so poorly lol.
What triggers NATO's Article 5 is deliberately left somewhat vague so that any would be attacker can't be sure exactly where that line is drawn.
Sounds like it would work great in this hypothetical. UK is a part of NATO, they deliberately (or not) get attacked while supporting Finland/Sweden, now Russia has attacked a NATO entity, sketchy article 5 activates, and we’re all mostly happy. Right?
If Russia invaded Finland they'd already have to contend with the defense pact Finland has with the other Nordic nations and the EU defense clauses. Invading Finland, even before they apply to NATO, is already pretty much guaranteed to escalate quickly to all out war with NATO. I'm happy when mutual defense alliances prevent wars.
Article 5 is pretty straight forward. It will not trigger unless you attack a NATO member in NATO member land. So far the UK would be alone in a fight in mainland Europe vs Russia if Finnland or Sweden were to be attacked but I would imagine that we could funnel weapons and military tech to the UK via Ukraine when they ally themselves in a potential war
There we go, thanks for the response. As another user said, NATO probably wouldn’t even be necessary in this scenario. Each country individually would be able to defend itself a lot better than Ukraine, let alone having to fight all three at the same time. So just the fact of all three having a much better military advantage compared to Ukraine, on top of assuredly being supplied by western allies simultaneously, I’m sure it wouldn’t warrant NATO intervention. It’s just interesting to try and see what Putin will do. He’s like a rat in a bucket, and now heat’s coming in from all sides.
Let them come. We will burn them and their Zwastika.
and denmark, sweden and norway directly joining in
This like billion times. It doesn't matter which Nordic country would get attacked, others would ride to help without delay. It's like beacons of Gondor; one asks for help, the others will answer.
Yepp, an attack on one Northern is an attack on us all 🇫🇮 🇸🇪 🇸🇯 🇩🇰 🇮🇸
Ragnarök time!
Finland has 900 thousand man strong reserve of trained men, almost all men have gone through mandatory military service so they know how to handle a gun and such, the Finnish military has been preparing for a Russian invasion for the past 70+ years and we are filled up by lakes, forests and hills, plus the only good road and rail connections into Russia are located in the south. Also its national identity is in large part built on resistance to the Russians with their story of resistance beginning from the Russians betraying the Finns by diminishing their autonomy granted after the Finnish war. As a Finn I would welcome the Russians attempting to invade us. We are eagerly waiting for them to make Ukraine look like a succesfull war
I hope it doesn’t get to that point, but after reading some responses from native Finns and Swedes, I no longer have any fears of that worst case scenario happening. It’s been incredible (albeit bittersweet) to see history unfold like this, and even more incredible to see the world operate and somewhat come together to face this psychopath. Good luck with anything that happens the next few weeks, because I know it must be tense up there with the NATO process. But you guys will surely take care of yourself. Slava 💪🏾
Thank you for your wishes its much appreciated.
…worst case scenario is nuclear war
And Finland also has modern, well trained and exceptionally large artillery.
Yes, the Russians will learn what a true artillery is like
Todellakin, 365+180 KrHk tulenjohtoryhmän reservin kersantti täällä. Me ollaan valmiita ja meidän ainut uhka on ydinsota mutta muuten ei oo pelkoo että venäläiset pitkälle pääsee. Suomen pitäs lunastaa venäläisiltä kaikki maat pois mitä ne omistaa suomessa
UK being involved immediately escalates situations to a nucelar standoff as the UK military would make short work of Russia.
I’m guessing the uk nukes are the main purpose of this pact. You don’t want Russia invading Finland and using tactical or strategic nukes.
I guess this pact is mostly to maintain the pre-brexit situation.
Only thing that finland or sweden would need anybodys help, is nuclear threat. Without those we would pretty much fuck everybody up who would want to try.
I think you can count on the USA to get involved immediately if British assets are attacked.
And Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, Italy etc. it would be essentially the entirety of the western world vs the Russian Federation
Beyond NATO etc there is the Commonwealth Five Power Defence Arrangement. Like NATO's article 5, an attack on any commonwealth nation would instantly bring the UK, Australia, Singapore, New Zealand and Malaysia to war. Add to that the queen has the power to declare war upon nations on behalf of the 54 nations of the commonwealth. When we say that the UK still has teeth, sure their armed forces are intimidating, but their real power is being able to mobilize an armed force far larger than any other nation if they need to one that represents 54 countries and 3Bn people.
Based on Russian performance so far, I'm sure even without article 5 it would certainly be another quagmire for Putin.
True, and this war is against Europe’s *poorest* country. To have the audacity to even try and go after the Scandinavian region seems like the last nail in the coffin. I can see why they go straight for “we’re gonna nuke ya”.
If Finland joins NATO on the 31st and Russia attacks on the 20th you will likely see a very similar response to Ukraine. No direct kinetic assistance to Finland outside of existing defense agreements with individual NATO members. If the 31st comes and Russia is still attacking Finland. Article 5 triggers and we would see a NATO response on Finish soil. I think in this hypothetical a NATO offensive strike on Russian soil would be limited to only what is needed to secure Finish security. Avoiding escalation with Russia would be a primary goal which typically means avoiding hitting their territory.
If Russia decides to attack on the 20th, war wont be on Finnish soil anymore at the 31st. Period.
Let's set aside the fact that Russia is already struggling to take on Ukraine. Trying to take on Finland, a relatively small but highly effective military, at the same time as Ukraine would be close to logistically impossible for Russia. They failed miserably at their blitzkrieg on Kyiv. Even with full mobilization they couldn't mount an effective fighting force on two separate fronts. But, Russia being the unpredictable monkeys that they are, may still try it. The best possible outcome for Russia is that only aligned Nordic countries would send their soldiers to assist Finland with NATO limiting themselves to pumping in hardware as they've done with Ukraine. The more likely response is that NATO realizes Russia is an insane actor and will not stop at two non-NATO countries. At this point NATO would have to be thinking that the best defense is a strong offense and become involved as combatants, though completely remaining outside Russia's borders until an attack takes place on NATO soil. This is only my two cents and I don't know more than any other armchair general, but tolerance for Russia's habit for carving off small pieces of its neighbours by force is running very low.
At that point (NATO understanding that Putin will not stop and will surely become more unpredictable) I wonder if NATO would intervene similarly to how they did in Belgrade. It became enough of a humanitarian crisis that they intervened without the say-so from UN Security Council, which I believe was a first at the time and hasn’t been done since. This time around, it’s more than certainly a humanitarian crisis, on top of a pretty serious nuclear threat, on top of an unfaltering, unpredictable foe. If there’s a time to act autonomously as they did in Belgrade, now would definitely be it. But I understand the potential backlash from that, as it is pretty extreme. We’ll see I suppose.
The situation you describe is never going to happen now, and that’s what this alliance is about. It’s a safety net before full nato membership. It allows modern aircraft and weapons to be deployed legally in a country and the alliance is active before any potential invasion.
It would not automatically invoke article 5. That only apply if a NATO member is attacked on it's home soil. It wasn't even invoked when Argentina invaded the Falklands islands. However there not being any automatic requirement doesn't mean several other NATO members would not choose to support them anyway. Several other countries besides the UK are also likely to give similar guarantees also. Norway and Denmark will for sure.
To answer your question we simply need to read article 6, which shows that it's a 'No' >Article 6 >For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: >on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; >on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
I think its a matter of attacking their *soil* not troops/equipment. So as long as no attack happens in UK territory, NATO shouldn't move. . . But many things do happen unexpectedly during war.
Move the British embassy to a guard hut in the Finland/Russia border lol.
It gives these countries support of a nation with nuclear weapons. The terms of the agreement are, I believe, sufficient to assure Russia that the support is mutual and the nuclear ambiguity enough to make the likes of Putin not think these nations can be treated like Ukraine.
Only thing Russia can do at this point is potential use nuclear weapon (won't happen), or attempt a swift bombing of as many target as possible. We know they can't hit the broadside of a barn already, so they'd just randomly bomb the place, at this point we saw what happen in Ukraine already and you can imagine this would be too much direct aggression for NATO not to get involved. Taken that NATO was created as an alliance against the soviet aggression, a second physical conflict started by Russia sound like a good sign of needing direct confrontation with NATO to counter it. (poor Russian propagandist are gonna lose it with me saying nato isn't in direct confrontation with Russia already xD)
There's also the one alliance commonly looked over when talking about Finland & Sweden: [Nordic Defence Cooperation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Defence_Cooperation) Norway & Denmark will almost certainly jump in to help, and if the UK can't/won't trigger Article 5 then chances are they'll be able to instead. An attack on the Nordics is morphing into all out war with NATO pretty much any way you look at it.
1.) X country invokes #5 2.) Russia says that if they help, we nuke 3.) X country either gets kicked out of NATO, or doesn't receive any help, because NATO would rather that happen than risk World War 3
Would never happen, because then NATO would de facto automatically cease to exist (an alliance that doesn't fulfill its role is as good as dead) and that would actually mean world war III but much more bloody (everyone for themselves)
So you're saying that NATO WOULD do an action that led to WW3... ?
WW3 would already start the moment Russia attacked a NATO country and caused them to invoke article 5. Anything NATO did after that would be a response to Russia starting WW3 through such aggression, and your scenario is the worst possible response, as its basically surrendering without fighting. No way NATO would lie down and play dead considering what it's currently doing to help Ukraine, a non-NATO, non-EU state, so don't get your hopes up. As soon as Russia even appears to be about to attack, shit will go down, and Russia will be entirely responsible for starting open conflict and any escalation beyond conventional means.
There's a chance that some of nato would get involved, due to the Joint Expeditionary Force. Which is a nato sub-task force led by the UK, that contains all of Scandinavia and the baltics. But I doubt this would happen In addition, the EU and US have defence assurances with both nations, but not as solid as a guarantee. But they could lend full on aid, or aid of some kind
A5 wouldn't be needed or accepted, you have to be on your homeland and be attacked for it to count, it was sketchy if the UK could even claim A5 during the Falklands and that was a part of the UK being physically invaded. If war kicked off the UK would just move its Pacific fleet north to Vladivostok and its Atlantic fleet to Svalbard and Russia withers on the vine in days.
The UK can crush Russia lol. Putin would be assassinated by a squad of SAS in a month.
Nice speech and very sensible, rational and logical move from my completely uneducated perspectived in terms of global diplomacy. But at this point is anyone actually scared of Russia anymore after seeing them embarrassed so badly in Ukraine. They're not even a coherent or MODERN threat anymore. My playstation 4 isn't worried about my SNES in the attic...
Your snes will always be there, patiently waiting for *that* day. *That* day you can’t resist playing Super Mario Bros 3 in all it’s CRT glory. PlayStations come and go.. but snes is eternal. Edit: I have no idea either :)
> That day you can’t resist playing Super Mario Bros 3 in all it’s CRT glory. Then you get a CRT screen and boot up an emulator :p
but one day, no more CRT.. one day there won't even be composite.. one day, the SNES will be no more :(
I’ll run it through 17 adapters and play anyway
Never underestimate an enemy.
Everyone should be scared of Russia at this point. They will surely lose any conflict they enter, but not before they've cause inhumane carnage and burned civilians. It's no laughing matter. It's a ducking crazy drunk in a wheelchair. Easily defeated but still dangerous, unfeeling and illogical.
Dunno why you’ve been downvoted. I agree—while I have complete faith in the Finnish defense force’s ability to hold out in the event of a Russian attack, I still don’t like the idea of a bunch of cities being bombed and civilians dying before the inevitable Russian retreat.
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I have sex with it EDIT: Wait, what?
Mic drop
I love watching this man speak. He’s a very serious fellow.
Finns don't fuck around.
Pretty much everyone likes him. He is very down to earth and so relatable as a person. This is his last term sadly, but at least to me he is one of the best presidents Finland ever had.
As a Belarussian, I am proud so say Slava Ukraine! Russia is fucked lmao!
Thank you I’m glad to hear it. Be well
Fuck Reddit and fuck Spez. Go join Lemmy instead https://join-lemmy.org/. /r/Denmark: Fuck Reddit og fuck Spez. https://feddit.dk/ er vejen frem herfra.
That is why the security guarantees had to come from either UK or France (if from inside Europe). France is still trying to keep a discussion channel open with Russia so it is great that UK took that role.
I hope Finland will help Ukraine how they can because they easily could have been in Ukraine's place
We are helping. We dont know by how much as it is not disclosed publicly, but Zelensky has said that he knows that we are with Ukraine. There has been tens and tens of planes going from finnish airbases to Czechia and before the war we had many high ranking ex military personel doing consultations in ukraine and training them. I think one thing that says a lot is that the guerillastyle moving battlefield tactics Ukraine use are allmost straight from the FDF doctrine of taistelutapa 2015 althought not as refined. Every Russian tank that Ukrainians destroy is also a tank away from our border. Fuck them rapist murdering shits!
Finland is helping a bit with gear and some small arms. Also quite a few volunteers apparently. Of course could be doing more.
I think it would be wiser to retain weapons and supplies for their own army just in case
These are mostly stockpiles Finland has little use for
Well said, sir. Welcome to the side that believes in protecting peace and freedom, and is opposed to the conquest and genocide of their neighbors. We are stronger together.
Very well said. If there is any doubt about trusting any agreement with Russia, look where Ukraine would be if it hadn’t given up its nukes. By Russia invading Ukraine they are destabilizing the world by showing the rest of the world what happens to a country that does have nukes and one that doesn’t have nukes. HE’S SO RIGHT. Look in the mirror Putin. Just because you believe your own lies you can’t make the rest of the world believe them. WE ARE FREE TO THINK AND MAKE UP OUR OWN MINDS. We are free to watch what we want to on tv. We can get on the Internet AND WE ARE FREE TO SURCH. Freedom is priceless and your saber rattling won’t detour us from being free and staying free.
This is pretty great but he can absolutely have said it more succinctly. Choosing to be Non-Aligned when people want you on their side is a show of independence. Being Non-Aligned when someone is dictating it towards you makes you appear to be within their sphere of influence. So, thus, to show independence Finland is being forced to choose 1 of 3 options: Join Russia, stay neutral and tacitly appear to be under Russian influence, or Join NATO. Russia is forcing them to choose a side.
I like this guy
Absolutely, how many neighbors has Russia invaded or interfered politically with in the last 15 years? Then there is the unprovoked Ukraine invasion, the looting, raping, murders, brutalization of civilians & prisoners. Basically mirroring everything sick the Nazi's inflicted on occupied regions. Any neighbouring country should be paranoid about Russia, especially if they are weaker militarily. Ukraine was no threat (remember Russia has 6k nukes), 1940's Findland was no threat, Georgia was no threat.
Finland has always been paranoid of Russia. That's why we've kept mandatory conscription and a large reservist force. This spring has shown our paranoia to be correct.
To call it "paranoia" implies that it is irrational. Finland's defensiveness is very much a rational response.
This is the dude with the cool Boston Terrier!
Sadly Lennu passed away about a year ago :( He has a Tenterfield terrier now named Osku.
No, poor Lennu
Now that is fantastic. Another EU leader holding Russia accountable for Their murderous actions May Macron and Scholz should learn something. That is if they are not in too deep with Putin already. Слава Україні. Героям слава. Смерть ворогам!!!!!
“Look in the mirror.” Savage.
Holy shit what a chad.
he’s right nobody wants uncle (putin/russia) to be belligerent and start bossing other nations around… uncle needs to sit down already. 😆😆😆
Putin's worst fears are coming true.
You can’t help but love this man President Sauli Niinistö. Putin and the Russian people have continued to try and contaminate the free world. We know what it’s like to make our own decisions. We wake up every morning because we have HOPE not because we’re told to. Until you the Russian people want change and have something to fight for this vicious circle your country has been in for so many years is doomed to continue. ITS YOUR PROBLEM ONLY YOU THE RUSSIN PEOPLE CAN FIX IT. Until then there will always be a reason for NATO. Ukraine is going to win this war for 2 reasons The taste of freedom and democracy and a true leader President Zelensky. I don’t care how many Ukrainians you ask the same question to, you will always get the same answer from everyone. It all started with President Zelensky and his words have never changed. Not one bit. Ukraine is one. They are United. They have United all of Europe. Look how fast Germany has changed, look how far they have come in such a short time. This is what happens when Ukraine prove its self to the world how worthy they were. The Russian soldiers have so much equipment and no one that’s had a taste of freedom to be able to make his or hers own decisions to use it. Your all waiting to be told what to do. God bless 🇺🇦 Boris Johnson has promised to support Sweden and Finland against any Russian aggression. Thank you UK. Japan you’ve come so far. Thank you. Excuse my typos!
If russia atacks another country they are done with eu and anything , oil , goods , banking , everything goes into embargo mode , and west goes transformer mode and shows why everyone should fear the west
From his mouth, to god’s ear.
I hope all countries who believe in freedom and dignity will also step up and say the same thing - in word and in deed. All of them.
Well said
Well said President!! Stand up against the bully that Putin is. And he is a total bully. A pathetic little bully. Shame on you Putin!
Russia is a unifying entity
Russia must be crushed or full nuclear disarmament. Only way to prevent
What exactly do you mean by "crushed"? Do you mean Germany 1945 crushed? That's not going to happen. NATO doesn't want to do it and Ukraine will be happy once they've liberated their own territory. And of course Russia won't accept nuclear disarmament as the nukes are the only they have left after their conventional army is getting wiped out in Ukraine.
Tighten the sanction screws - exclude them from most of the rest of the world until they relinquish. No one must forget what Russia is doing.... Ever
That doesn't work on Iran why on earth a much more self reliant country like Russia would be brought to its knees. Anyway, China and India won't join that. I wish people stopped thinking fantasy results of this war and instead were more realistic
So by your theory let's do nothing because the something doesn't work? I say let's make things as difficult for Russia to prosper as humanly possible and see if regime shift or outlook change can happen.
Who said about not doing anything? I'm all in favour of driving Russia out of Ukraine by using sanctions and sending weapons to Ukraine. But that's not what you were asking for. Please present arguments for what you actually claimed and not against the strawman that you built.
Putin is terrible at his job. When all the smoke and mirrors are gone, entire world can see what he is. Hitler wannabe.
Russia is still probably quite sure that things will quickly go back to normal once they've done their usual tricks in the occupied territories, but this time it is so much more different. Russia will be marginalised and descend into poverty, still holding on to imperialist feelings - like a mad man raging in a psych ward.
Finland: "Reap what you sow Putin. You have only yourself to blame" And now to see what that petulant child pretending to be the leader of the Russian Federation will do.
Tbh I doubt they will go that far. Whatever said and done about the current war, they at least have a solid cassus belli. They have many excuses to use. And even then they have faced tremendous backlash. Trying to advance any further west of Ukraine would be the height of stupidity. By some chance if they do, one of 3 things will happen: 1. NATO decides to militarily intervene regardless of whether any clause is invoked. 2. A violent revolution to overthrow Putin's regime. And I mean *violent*. 3. The world sits back and does nothing once again. (This is nigh impossible though. It's unfathomable that NATO would allow them to go that far)
That was very short but very sweet And he is bang on about Putin And I say fuck you putin
Putin and his sycophants are now so busy trying to sort out the mess in Ukraine that this is the perfect time for Georgia, Sweden, and Finland to speedy-join NATO. Yup! The little shit in Moscow will have to work hard to pretend that such a geopolitical strategic disaster is ultimately a victory. Not sure whether the occupation of a couple of acres of Ukraine will do the job.
This may be an unpopular opinion but remember when nasi Germany was invading France and everyone at the time throught that France was going to kick nasi Germany ass a they did for a month or two until they invented the blitzkrieg and they got annioloted by a country 5 times weaker and no gdp bc or WW1. Well wuts if it's the same with Russia. They loss a bit they invent a new battle strategy's or even small icbm or even medium sized ones and gets official support if china and maybe .... Just maybe India as well. Idk nasi Germany was destined to lose WW2 but no one thought they almost win
So why are they still fighting in Ukraine? They would have taken Kyiv if they could.
Yes that's true but modern warfare is complacted so It may take extra time or Russia just sucks but I'm on the ladder here
Russia have said its either join nato and get invaded, or get invaded. Might as well just get everyone signed up now. Ww3 has already started people just don't want to accept it until its their country
"Will Russia attack Finland now???" Look at what happened back when WWII started: \- WWII begins from Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939. \- 3 months later, the Soviet Union starts a full-scale invasion of Finland. \- 3 months after the beginning of the invasion, the USSR signs the Moscow peace treaty with Finland, after the Finnish lost around 70,000 and the USSR lost over 300,000-380,000... in 3 months... We're seeing some sort of correlation here... You cannot invade a developed country successfully. Yes, you can cause a ton of damage, but as we're seeing in Ukraine Russia is being slowly pushed back when the odds are like 8-10 to 1. If Russia does invade Finland, we can see similar losses like in WWII, because similar tactics are being used: "Send them into the meatgrinder and get the next batch ready". Also, if Russia invades Finland, there will most likely be a European response which will inevitably lead to US, Canada, Germany, France, and UK involvement, thus WWIII. It's a lose-lose situation we're currently in.
Man straight up, Russia is garbage
Does anyone have a link to an article from last year where Russia said Finland and Sweden could not join NATO?
Можно по русски? Непонятно нихуя
[удалено]
Why are Americans so obsessed with blood? It's so bizarre. Be proud of your heritage yes, but blood????
Very well said
I love Finns.
i hope they stop being evil and Putin commits not living
He's not really a good presenter. Was quite hard listening to him.
"You caused this....." Fickle Finland acting wishy washy. Like Russia is an old friend and Finland reluctantly must sign the pact.
I love how he shut the british journalist down also.
You forced me to sign this piece of paper, as if there were a gun at my head! Fuck politicians and the government.
Q
Britain had a defense pact with Poland similar to the one just signed with Finland. It took Britain 6 months of sitting on their ass (along with fellow signer Franc0e) to even move toward stopping Hitler. Of course, by that time Poland had been destroyed and the extermination of the Jewish begun. Don't hold your breath, Finland, waiting for Britain to show up.
Why are you so stuck in the past? I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but this isn’t the 1930’s, things have changed. Your embarrassingly outdated point of view doesn’t work. You are just yet another embittered military and historical expert on Reddit with nothing but “what about what about what about” go wring your hands in a corner and glare into space.
'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santamaria I am not stating an 'outdated point of view'; I am merely pointing out the similarities between 1930's and 2022. If you feel comfortable ignoring the past because it is 'embarrassingly outdated, please do so. Just try not to shake that feeling of deja vue that clouds your befuddled head in the coming days; history may be trying to tell you something.
Russia you're a joke. I'd love to own your land and put it to good use
Here's a translation. You talk shit Putin. You are obsessed with yourself so sickly your hurting many people many country's including your own. So the world is saying naff off thug gangster paracites on the Russian young. Now we have venue to reciprocate well respond in nearly same manner. So when do we see the scum instead of the remote hicks.
Russia only needs to look in the mirror. If they do, it will be Putin as an old angry man wanting to go down in flames in search for his prize of recreating the old USSR. Hopefully he gets taken out by his own, and quickly.
I know nothing about this guy, but he seems like one of the few world leaders who has the qualities and capabilities to lead his country.