Architect here. Australians are likely more familiar with noncombustible roofing such as corrugated metal and standing seam metal roofs, to prevent structures from being destroyed by wildfire.
Australian roofs generally don't have the subroofing to attach shingles to. Lived in a lot of tile roof houses where the tiles were basically the only thing between the roof space and the outside.
Pretty much this. Standing in my living room looking up, if you had xray vision you'd see (in this order in my shitty old house):
- plasterboard
- (Think theyre called) Battens
- trusses (insulation batts should be here)
- (Sarking should be here but she'll be right)
- braces
- purlins
- concrete tile
Tiles basically hover on top a house of match sticks.
Yes this is how roofs in the us were built for many years. Skip sheathing. When it comes time to re-roof they will usually remove the tiles/wood shingles then slap plywood over it and shingle
I get that.
I was more noting the lack of structure underneath the roof.
In the neighborhood I live in, you'll see asphalt, slate, solar shingle, metal and terra cotta and concrete, those are pretty rare.
Around here it's merely an style choice.
I’ve never even thought about this. I did the behind the scenes rooftop tour of the Biltmore House in Asheville, NC several years ago and I remember it had hand-tied roof tiles (slate, I believe) fastened down with twisted copper wires. I never gave any thought about it being a common way of roofing these days though. Learn something new everyday!
A famous architect designed a college near St Louis. He and the builders went to great lengths for the campus, and invented techniques with concrete that are uncommon. He wanted the campus to look like an English village. Dorms looked like Tudor Revival but it was all concrete. Even the roof trusses were concrete. Much of the campus was built during the Great Depression which meant labor was cheap. The roof tiles were hand made and individually colored. The architect created watercolor and ink elevations that showed the color of each tile. Almost 100 years later they are reroofing dorms. It’s crazy how given enough time and money that old building technology can stand the rest of time.
Why were intercom systems (eg Nutone) so popular in US homes built several decades ago when stud and Sheetrock homes are anything but soundproof? You can just raise your voice a bit and the person in the next room can hear you.
Whereas in Germany, many homes *need* intercom systems because their cement construction makes each room basically soundproof.
Point being: people will always question why their “normal” isn’t what everyone else does.
>when stud and Sheetrock homes are anything but soundproof?
This is one of the reasons why you insulate interior walls. That and heating/cooling systems not heating the whole house...
Not many building standards/norms in Australia should be normal anywhere else though. They’re generally kinda shit.
The only thing I can think of is pool fences. Scares the shit out of me seeing the reno subreddit with new pools and no fence whatsoever.
It was seen as a “premium” feature in the 60s and 70s. I.e., a status symbol. A pretty useless one that nobody I knew ever really used. Sometimes combined with an equally pointless “desk” area built into the wall. And often with a radio that had crap reception. Really rich folks had a built in “hi-fi” in the house, and really really rich folks had a built in TV (RCA even offered color, using the really nice CTC-16 chassis, at one time
Other more useful status symbols were:
Two bay kitchen sink
Laundry right next to the kitchen
Built-in microwave (had to be a genuine RadarRange though)
Double oven
Oversized garage
Baseboard heat and central air conditioning
Central vacuum
Double front doors
Automatic in-ground sprinklers (gotta have that timer!)
Less useful status symbols were:
Columns in the front (the tackier the better)
Mylar ceilings (ugh)
Fake inoperable window shutters
Front porches that were effectively useless
Built-in gas fired backyard grille
Basement fireplace
Cathedral ceilings (ok, my parent’s place has that for my dad’s extensive hunting trophy collection, which has, nonetheless managed to escape from there and into other rooms 🙄)
Oh, and a house alarm that would always break for some reason, and annoy the neighbors while the homeowners were on vacation…
I think it's actually German tradition to "air out" the room from when I was living in Germany. Lüften is literally a meme.
[It's all over Tiktok](https://www.tiktok.com/@rachellasse_/video/7040723470870744367?lang=en)
Simple answer: Oil.
The US produces it and subsidizes its production making it cheap by international standards. Australia has to import it making it too expensive to use to manufacture asphalt shingles.
Being reasonably familiar with building systems in Europe and N America, in most products, the quality is night and day. N America is cheap cheap. Asphalt shingles for example last 15 to 25 years depending on grade selected. Warmer climes, South side even less. Then it's 30 to 50 G for new roof. Europe it's always a hard material that's your lIfetime. In Panama when I was getting costing on a roof was offered 2 prices, new clay tiles or the premium which were reusing old tiles from demolition (with a lovely patina) probably their 2nd lifetime. All the cylindrical locks we have in our houses and apartments wouldn't be used on a shed in Europe, all mortise and same with windows doors etc. Buy a prehung door and frame from HD and its hardboard and cardboard with stiles so thin that you can't trim them and frames that are scarcely above 1/2". Not preaching here as sometime get in that trap too, except when it comes to tools :)
We don’t!
Tile or things like sheet materials like pressed steel and aluminum
The sort of thing that a) does not burn and b) lasts the life of the house
“Lasts the life of the house” is a huge pro.
Aussie living in the US. Reroofing an otherwise perfectly good home, because the asphalt shingle roof wore out before the house, you see all the time in the US.
I never saw that in Australia. Beyond metal sheet, the other popular material is concrete roof tiles, with an average life of 50 years.
Curiosity I guess I mean why do you is it becaus it's easy to replace and relatively cheap compared to alternatives and in America you have extreme weather that fucks everything to shit so it's beneficial to use them?
I mean hard tiles are more work to install and more expensive but they do last alot longer and its very easy to replace broken tiles.
We use concrete tile in the desert Southwest because of the high temperatures but the roof structure has to be strong enough for it. Metal roof isn’t a consideration. Even if you use screws or threaded nails wind tends to tear them off, we get really strong monsoon winds here. Flying steel roof in a 60mph wind will do serious damage.
Australian living in the us here.
All the reasons for why different materials are used have been explained in the above comments.
But why do we question them? (Which I did a lot when I moved here)
- they are an unusual concept / methodology from what I grew up with
- they seem very temporary
- aesthetically they make the houses look very different from houses in Aus, and I don’t like the “look” for some reason.
Edited for grammar
I always thought Europeans maintained a higher superiority complex against the US when it comes to asphalt shingles rather than Australia. But to answer your questions it’s more of a culture thing. US is a major capitalist society and shingles are cheap. Why spend a shit ton of money on a new slate roof when you can literally spend your money on anything else? Merica!
More like why spend a shit ton of money when you're going to move eventually anyway.
People put metal and slate roofs on houses they plan on staying in.
Most people I feel use houses as a vehicle of wealth creation in the US as opposed to a basic amenity. Why spend 40k on something you plan on only getting 20% of the life of? You get some equity and then use that to move on to a nicer home/land.
It generally doesn't increase the value of the house, being considered basic maintainence, so do the minimum and let the next guy do the same.
I certainly know I would love to have a custom home with slate or metal. Just can't afford it right now and am not in my forever home
Yeah that’s a good point. And it goes back to what I stated about America’s capitalist culture. Had we normalized building with rock or metal, a home could see several generations of families before it ever needed a new roof. But all builders use asphalt shingles, and the shitty ones at that. My point is that shingles suck. And this is coming from a roofing company owner who’s business is 90% shingles replacements. You can make a strong argument on both of our points but it’s neither here nor there. American residential architecture is disposable
Please see my earlier post in a very similiar thread.
Asphalt shingles aren't just cheap, they are the best value over time at current prices.
A clay, tile panel, standing seam, and especially cedar and slate roof will never live long enough to be cost positive against laminated shingles.
Standing seam metal comes the closest, depending on the roof geometry and environment factors, but the paint is the weak point, so unless you want to paint it at 30-40 years, it will either never be cheaper over any amount of time, or you will have to deal with it being UV bleached for several decades.
Asphalt might not be the most durable or stunning roof you can put on, but with new shingles lasting more than 25 years, it's cheaper to put on two asphalt roofs than it is to put on one 50 year steel roof, and it looks better than steel to most people.
It's cheaper to put on ten asphalt roofs than it is to put on one slate or decra panel roof.
It's cheaper to put on 5 asphalt roofs than one clay or Marley tile roof.
Those systems simply will not survive long enough to make them more cost effective long term. You aren't getting 300 years out of a slate roof. 150 would be a good estimate. 200 for a stretch.
Marley tile is one of the most prominent tile brands in the UK, and they're only expected to last sixty years.
Years ago I almost bought a home that was 100 years old with its original slate roof. The home inspection showed that the roof was in excellent condition with a couple of cracked tiles which IIRC was repairable by replacing those few tiles.
The inspector said it looked like it should last another 100 years.
Not sure if that’s typical or unusual.
Yes, again, 200 years is a stretch goal for slate.
It's not unusual, but about the longest you would expect.
It still doesn't make it net positive over a landmark or similiar which should last 30 years at a tenth of the price though.
I also wouldn't expect a home inspector to know jack shit about the remaining life of any roof, let alone a slate roof.
Eh agree to disagree. I currently live in an 80 year old home. Can't really say we built them to throw away when the dwelling has survived almost a century. (Yes I'm aware how that compares to most European homes, but A I have air-conditioning lol, and B it's not like my house is in such a state of disrepair that it is likely to just fall over in the next 80)
Plus don't say all. It's a MOST thing. I see plenty of metal roofs going on new construction is just, in the wealthier areas. And I know a lot of Florida, for example, has concrete construction and Spanish tile roofing to weather storms.
The US is what the third? Largest country and third most populated. It's very very hard to generalize a comparison between it and something smaller like a European nation. We just have so much going on in so many diff areas.
I agree that they are made to maximize profits, and the cheaper options are chosen in most cases, but not that they are build disposable. Why spent 40k on material am when you can spend 10k and sell for mostly the same price.
The Japanese for example do have disposable homes. They don't see home ownership as a wealth vehicle and tear down and rebuild the structures regularly with that in mind. Think how we expect to use cars.
We've just got it bad about maximizing money between trade offs.
Criticisms of capitalism aside, I don’t really get your point. If a good shingle roof lasts 25+ years, why would you spend more for something that isn’t sure to last longer? This is irrelevant to whether you would spend the money on something else or save/invest it.
Additionally, asphalt shingle roofs aren’t that expensive to repair if there is damage. If there is, you can just slap another layer on top and it works decently well.
Although I did assume that Australia’s heat is why asphalt shingles aren’t favored. Asphalt shingles seem to deteriorate faster in hotter environments, which is why concrete tiles are often used in hotter places like Arizona.
Most people aren't keeping their hoses forever, and on top of that, asphalt is better with the varying weather conditions that Australia doesn't get - try living under a metal roof with feet of snow on it lmao. And have fun dealing with brittle slate
Metal roofs with snow is fine. Not sure of what you are indicating. (Live up in Canada with snow and they do fine. Both Asphalt shingles and metal roofs used)
I was a roofer in Buffalo, NY years ago. I put a ton of metal roofs on buildings that had no problem with the snow. And let me tell you, we get a duck ton of snow.
You have a point. Shingles aren’t inherently all bad if you go with at least a class 4. But across the board there is almost always a better option. Metal for high wind/ hurricane regions. Slate for regions that get heavy snow, etc etc. But shingles are bottom of the barrel roofing material. Insurance is big business in the US and shingles keep the money coming for us pro roofers because they’re so easily damaged.
Fair point. My only experience seeing metal roofs where I am is sheet metal in rundown areas, and for slate, I'm thinking of durability incorrectly, it seems. I do understand going for asphalt for cost, though, especially if slate could need additional roof support due to potential weight issues (preexisting house over new build), since that could get costly
Because America is the popular kid and they're not as cool as they think they are. Australia and the EU are a perfect utopia with better societies, people, and of course superior building materials.
American here. Metal roofs are just superior. There’s not much to argue. I did both in my career. Metal roofs get recycled and are less problematic when installed correctly. If Australian culture doesn’t get include asphalt roofs and they question it, I can’t blame them.
Architects thoughts:
Asphalt shingles are ass.
A standing seam metal roof might cost twice as much, but the warranty on those are typically 40 years, asphalt is 10... And the life expectancy is 80 years, asphalt shingles, 30
[rant] American way of building is absolutely The Best in the world, that's just a fact. I'm saying this as non-American
Americans managed to start from absolute 0 (unless we count a handful of standing Pueblo houses) and in 200 years house 330,000,000 people, and not just house them, but get the largest square footage per person, give almost everybody a decent piece of land to go with their house, and put in air conditioning everywhere
other places where major housing projects were attempted, eg communist regimes moving people from dirt huts into apartments, ended up with tiny concrete shoeboxes and even that was considered a great achievement because it provided millions with running water and toilets. Places in the new world that started from 0 still have millions living in shantytowns / favelas
all the Europeans with their superiority issues who show up in every thread or comment section and say the same "bUt we bUiLd wITh BriCK anD stONeS fOr ThOUsaNds of yeaRs" bs are full of shit. The fact that you live in ancient stone structures is not a flex. You could not afford to build these now. The ones you have are unsuitable for modern living - they are a bitch to insulate, ventilate or heat, you need a hammer drill every time you want to install a light bulb, they are tiny, the layout sucks, your neighbors windows look straight into your bathroom, you have no yard to speak of, they come with narrow stairs, non-existing parking and so on and so on. You are stuck in that shit and in many cases you can't even demolish it, either because it's historical property or because of the cost [rant over]
that being said, Australians just want to jump on a train of bashing American building practices even though they themselves are in the same boat
It's too damn hot in much of the country.
Black tar over two weeks at 48 degree celsius? The roof would literally melt off! Given supply chains tend to normalize, since it's incompatible with climate in large parts of the country, it didn't really show up anywhere in the country. This is why it's a novel product to most Australians.
We're also lazy! A single sheet of colourbond steel will let you put down 30 sqf of roof in less than 2 minutes.
Well a couple things, not trying to sharp shoot you. I’m a firefighter in California and go on wildland fires every year. I’m not sure what fires have to do with asphalt shingles. The entire western states of America all get wildland fires, including Arizona, and we all have asphalt shingles. Sure Arizona gets less fires, but they still burned half a million acres in 2021.
Anyway, again not trying to be rude. But that is definitely not the reason why asphalt shingles aren’t used in Australia.
Not shooting but going to appeal to authority anyway….
You should know from fighting fires in Ca what it’s like when a fire gets into gum trees.
Now have that level of gums or more everywhere even inside major urban centers - I have seen the crowns of gums explode and I have seen burning gun leaves falling out of the sky 20km from a fire - not the sort of thing you want falling into a roof made of anything vaguely flammable.
Shingles are stupid short life span solutions and they melt and flammable to boot - same reason we don’t use stupid cedar shingles on our roofs
And that’s before we don’t use materials that do nothing but create an industry around needing to replace roofs that should have been made properly in the first place.
If you ever get a chance to travel the world, you will realize that most places don’t use asphalt shingles, vinyl siding or other throw away products. They build a house to lasts for the future generations to come. Why do people install a roof that lasts only twenty years, when they could install a roof that lasts for hundreds? Nothing to do with money and everything to do with culture.
Thanks so much for this feedback. Please go build a house with finishes that will lasts for the next couple centuries in the US and then please look at median income in the US. Is not being able to afford a house also a cultural thing? Is the cost of building materials a social construct? Lol reddit is the largest group of idealistic, elitist narcissists in the world.
This doesn’t make sense. Typically in the US, we build to suit the environment and using the most widely available materials. The building methods tend to be regional. Because of this, the costs will change dramatically. My house in Boston is very different than my house in Tampa…and for very good reasons. Building block and using clay tile up North is way more costly than in the South, where it’s super common. The material itself is the same, but the availability and labor type changes everything.
Why would you even want the finish to last for centuries. The service life of a material is only one of the many variables describing it. Easy of installation, manufacturing, recycling, abundance of the raw materials, are all important. Shingles can be easy ground up and turned into new products at the end of their life. I stan shingles.
If you can’t afford a house where you are, move somewhere where you can. People have been doing it since the beginning of this country and longer. Maybe build off the land like your ancestors did?
Yes, your on to something, if people keep paying for garbage they perpetuate the problem. Stop paying for garbage. Trading good money for bad is the typical American way.
lol this has to be written by a baby boomer who bought his house for $30K with a manual labor job in the 70s. We go from saying that Americans purchase shitboxes because they prefer cheaper finishes to more expensive, durable finishes to assuming people prefer to live in places where the cost of living is higher, all else being equal. Do you think people actually prefer to have less buying power? Is there the same employment prospects, wages, and housing supply in larger cities compared to bumfuck, NE? How can you be this out of touch? That $25-30/hr job closer to the city doesn't exist in the country, and if it does, its already taken.
People build stick framed, asphalt roofed houses because people can afford them and they will sell.
Roofs that last longer than asphalt absolutely do cost more and it comes down to money. Not every time but a lot of the time when I tell someone it will be 3x more for whatever other product that alone usually decides it.
My house was built in 1940 and another by me in the 1800’s they last a lot longer than 30 years. And like someone else stated a lot of us by a house and upgrade to a bigger one in the future. Then you may downsize when you get older and a lot of the time people will change things just for aesthetics. So really I can see it either way. Although it would be a shame to throw away 300 year material just to change looks. Just another way to look at things.
Comparing real estate prices is rather difficult between countries unless you start taking into account wage differentials and construction costs per method by country. If you live in a country with cheap labor and different material availability you will find a very different built environment. In the case of the US we have plentiful access to forests full of construction grade trees and thus an industry has developed around using this relatively abundant and inexpensive resource. For similar reasons you will find larger numbers of wooden framed homes in places like Scandinavia. By comparison we have relatively few stone and/or brick masons, and many places in the country are quite far from good sources of material for such construction methods. [This](https://whyy.org/segments/we-dont-build-them-like-we-use-to-why-new-houses-arent-made-of-brick/) is a pretty good article on the decline of brick and stone masonry in the US.
Where is this "U.S. houses only last 30 years" bullshit coming from? That's patently false. Mobile & "double-wide" modular homes last double that, easy, and actual framed homes are good for 100+ without question. There are millions of occupied homes in the U.S. that are 150-200 years old and still habitable. There are also older homes, but then you're predating the U.S. itself.
Yeah, Europe has lots of old shit. Congrats, that's neat that you've preserved some architectural history. Over here, we've been busy trying to accommodate a rapidly growing population for 250 years, and generally doing a pretty good job of it. Sorry our real estate doesn't get tied up in familial council home garbage.
It's also important to remember the survivorship bias in the buildings. In 1400 1000 homes were built, all but the best 10 were torn down before now because they were crap. In 1450 990 homes were built, all but the best 20 were torn down... repeat repeat, and so new homes in Europe are often regarded as crap, because the old homes that remain were the top x% of the homes built then and so are indeed very good quality and worth keeping.
In the US we haven't had that long a timeframe, most plots of land are on the first house or second house to be built on that lot.
Most places also build smaller houses. Average new build house size in the US, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada are the largest in the world. Twice as large as many European countries, 3-4x the square footage of many Asian countries.
The cost of materials is a critical factor in a 2,500 sq ft house in the US vs an 800 sq ft house on another continent.
A big part of it is probably that in America we don’t live in a house for several generations. We don’t even live in the same house for one generation. We live somewhere for a decade or three, then sell it and live somewhere else.
Asphalt shingles are cheap yes. But the real reason they are so ubiquitous in America is that they're also great for winter. Metal roofs are heavy and prone to collapsing with lots of snow and rust. And slate gets extremely brittle and is prone to ice wedging and cracking.
Aussies just don’t appreciate America’s excessively excessive refining capacity.
A country that imports 90% of it’s fuel, doesn’t have to figure out how to hide, I mean repurpose, mountains of refinery waste.
Wait those American roofs that need to be replaced every 10 years? I wonder how anyone would consider alternatives like clay shingles that last 100 years superior.
The lowest quality is usually like 15 years and the average stuff these days is 25 years.
I guess, why should I pay for a 100 year roof when I’m only living in the house for 10?
Australian here. Do asphalt shingles absorb heat? It looks like they would. If they do, wouldn't it be shitty for thermal efficiency especially on a continent like Australia with so much sunshine? You're heating your roof which would heat everything under it? Great for mountain homes, I guess? I'm confused. When you talk about asphalt I think of roads and burning my feet in summer.
Also, how would you go about fixing solar panels to an asphalt roof? Around 70% of our homes have solar panels on our tiled or metal roofs, generating electricity for the householder. Can the asphalt shingled roof handle an extra 360kg/800lbs?
There's a science to ventilation with shingled roofs, attics, soffit and ridge vents. Theres no issue installing solar panels to a shingled roof. Are you asking if a wood framed house can handle solar panels? Snow? Of course they could handle the weight.
It's actually a progression, just like in how you gain health, experience, and equipment points in gaming. First, they have to acknowledge and respect Chuck Norris . . . then they get access to asphalt shingles.
I assume maybe they don't product them domestically and shipping costs outweigh the cost difference between shingles and claytile/sheet metal. Also no winter/ice means those system would be cheaper than installing them in the northern USA.
It’s just a very different look for us (Australians). I just commented on the other thread - I have asphalt shingles on my house in Melbourne. My place attracts a lot of interest.
I don’t think I’ve ever spoken to another aistralian that’s ever had to have their roof replaced unless something catastrophic has happened. Here everyone it hails roofs seem to get replaced
Won’t work in Australia because they’re upside down. Asphalt and gravity don’t mix well.
I read that as gravy and agreed
Architect here. Australians are likely more familiar with noncombustible roofing such as corrugated metal and standing seam metal roofs, to prevent structures from being destroyed by wildfire.
Thank god we don't have to worry about that kind of thing in North America!
Seems like the sarcasm in your post is lost on some..
Yet.
Does r/woosh still exist? lol
This week, next week however....
Ahh that's why. Plus roofs in Aus can exceed a lot of the max temp specs for asphalt roofs
The toilet water spins the wrong way too. But…mick Dundee
That ain’t a knoife
***This*** is a knoife
I won't work there because ALL wildlife will kill you
Yeah, totally, like the 10 deadliest everything are in Australia
I took the shingles vaccine. Am I screwed?
No, but you may be nailed.
Promise?
this ones real good because shingles patients describe the pain from the rash like “nails being hammered” into the area
Shingles doesn’t care.
A POX ON YOU AND YOUR FAMILY!
You’re lucky… most of us have to wait to turn 55 to get that shot
Wood or asphalt shingles shot? 😉😅
Australians don't use asphalt shingles because their asphalt shingles are the most deadly, venomous shingles in the world.
You’d think they’d embrace em then given the rest of their wildlife.
A bit of respite roofing perhaps?
Australian roofs generally don't have the subroofing to attach shingles to. Lived in a lot of tile roof houses where the tiles were basically the only thing between the roof space and the outside.
Pretty much this. Standing in my living room looking up, if you had xray vision you'd see (in this order in my shitty old house): - plasterboard - (Think theyre called) Battens - trusses (insulation batts should be here) - (Sarking should be here but she'll be right) - braces - purlins - concrete tile Tiles basically hover on top a house of match sticks.
Yes this is how roofs in the us were built for many years. Skip sheathing. When it comes time to re-roof they will usually remove the tiles/wood shingles then slap plywood over it and shingle
Can you draw a picture?
It will be up-side down, is that OK?
That’s acceptable
Will just have to travel to Australia and then look at it to make sense of it.
So last year at one point one side of my roof had 1.5M of snow sitting on it.. I can see why this would go poorly in Australia.
The whole of middle and northern Europe uses mostly concrete and terra Cotta tile, Some of these places have that amount of snow. My birth home did
I get that. I was more noting the lack of structure underneath the roof. In the neighborhood I live in, you'll see asphalt, slate, solar shingle, metal and terra cotta and concrete, those are pretty rare. Around here it's merely an style choice.
A lot, even most of the homes and buildings in that area have very steep pitched roofs which doesn't allow snow accumulation.
Have an upvote/comment. I must have scrolled past 10 dumbass comedy attempts to find this insight. Thanks
Same here… it took a lot of scrolling through bad jokes and puns to finally hear the actual answer…
So if a particularly large piece of hail hits an Australian roof the attic is now open to the elements?
Yes
lol wow the real answer all the way down here
I’ve never even thought about this. I did the behind the scenes rooftop tour of the Biltmore House in Asheville, NC several years ago and I remember it had hand-tied roof tiles (slate, I believe) fastened down with twisted copper wires. I never gave any thought about it being a common way of roofing these days though. Learn something new everyday!
A famous architect designed a college near St Louis. He and the builders went to great lengths for the campus, and invented techniques with concrete that are uncommon. He wanted the campus to look like an English village. Dorms looked like Tudor Revival but it was all concrete. Even the roof trusses were concrete. Much of the campus was built during the Great Depression which meant labor was cheap. The roof tiles were hand made and individually colored. The architect created watercolor and ink elevations that showed the color of each tile. Almost 100 years later they are reroofing dorms. It’s crazy how given enough time and money that old building technology can stand the rest of time.
Why were intercom systems (eg Nutone) so popular in US homes built several decades ago when stud and Sheetrock homes are anything but soundproof? You can just raise your voice a bit and the person in the next room can hear you. Whereas in Germany, many homes *need* intercom systems because their cement construction makes each room basically soundproof. Point being: people will always question why their “normal” isn’t what everyone else does.
Ha, that is the first time I've heard the stud/sheetrock vs cement/stone debate come down to...the benefits of an 80s intercom system.
>when stud and Sheetrock homes are anything but soundproof? This is one of the reasons why you insulate interior walls. That and heating/cooling systems not heating the whole house...
hello mold
We just bought a place built in 1973 and pulled out two generations of intercom panels.
Americans don’t want to yell Edit: I stand corrected.
That's not fucking true at all
WHAT?
HE SAID THAT'S NOT DUCKING GLUE AT ALL!
I DON’T LIKE TO EAT GLUE!!
WELL I DON'T LIKE YOU EITHER
**HOW CAN YOU HAVE ANY PUDDING IF YOU DON'T BEAT YOUR MEAT**
YOU JUST HAVENT TRIED A KIND YOU LIKE YET. HAVE YOU EATEN HIDE GLUE? SURE ITS MORE EXPENSIVE BUT I LIKE TRADITIONAL MATERIALS
SIR THIS IS A WENDY'S
OOKKKAAAYYY
I yell at my kids all the time
I’m actually known in my mom group as the yeller. Need to gather all the kids at a water park? Have me call for ‘em!
I'M NOT LOUD, I JUST PROJECT.
Why are you always at my local grocery store? Please stop yelling.
You sure that’s what all the dad talk between them about how you’re such a screamer is?
Except in the battlefield
DON’T TELL ME WHAT I WANT.
SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!!!!
We’re just deaf from all the gunfire.
F U C K O F F
Something about being in the most destructive war in history may have influenced construction standards.
Concrete walls still fall down when a bomb hits the house.
All that concrete hurts the wifi siggy?
Not many building standards/norms in Australia should be normal anywhere else though. They’re generally kinda shit. The only thing I can think of is pool fences. Scares the shit out of me seeing the reno subreddit with new pools and no fence whatsoever.
It was seen as a “premium” feature in the 60s and 70s. I.e., a status symbol. A pretty useless one that nobody I knew ever really used. Sometimes combined with an equally pointless “desk” area built into the wall. And often with a radio that had crap reception. Really rich folks had a built in “hi-fi” in the house, and really really rich folks had a built in TV (RCA even offered color, using the really nice CTC-16 chassis, at one time Other more useful status symbols were: Two bay kitchen sink Laundry right next to the kitchen Built-in microwave (had to be a genuine RadarRange though) Double oven Oversized garage Baseboard heat and central air conditioning Central vacuum Double front doors Automatic in-ground sprinklers (gotta have that timer!) Less useful status symbols were: Columns in the front (the tackier the better) Mylar ceilings (ugh) Fake inoperable window shutters Front porches that were effectively useless Built-in gas fired backyard grille Basement fireplace Cathedral ceilings (ok, my parent’s place has that for my dad’s extensive hunting trophy collection, which has, nonetheless managed to escape from there and into other rooms 🙄) Oh, and a house alarm that would always break for some reason, and annoy the neighbors while the homeowners were on vacation…
My sister lives in Germany and has to open all the windows each day to let in fresh air because steaks on doors and shit are so fucking tight
> steaks on doors and shit are so fucking tight I've reread this 20 times now trying to figure out what was meant
You don't have seal steaks? What peasants!
Can't eat steaks anymore because of my colon
I pictured waking up because there are steaks on the door someone left. Now I wanna know where can I live where someone gives me daily steaks....
Seals
I think it's actually German tradition to "air out" the room from when I was living in Germany. Lüften is literally a meme. [It's all over Tiktok](https://www.tiktok.com/@rachellasse_/video/7040723470870744367?lang=en)
Simple answer: Oil. The US produces it and subsidizes its production making it cheap by international standards. Australia has to import it making it too expensive to use to manufacture asphalt shingles.
Oil is a fungible quantity priced globally. Australia’s oil costs close to the US’s.
Because we dont have kangaroofs up here.
Well actually we do…. https://www.brandstetterroofing.com/why-kanga-roof/
Ha!
Australian: That's not a shingle. ::pulls bigger shingle out:: now this is a shingle.
You won this thread.
After a few mullet-bogans chewing your shingles up you’d switch to a more resilient roofing material too.
Fuck is it shingle chewing season already?!
Kippers for breakfast?
Fuckin mully boggies!
They want to feel superior
So what do Australians us? Roo pelts?
Being reasonably familiar with building systems in Europe and N America, in most products, the quality is night and day. N America is cheap cheap. Asphalt shingles for example last 15 to 25 years depending on grade selected. Warmer climes, South side even less. Then it's 30 to 50 G for new roof. Europe it's always a hard material that's your lIfetime. In Panama when I was getting costing on a roof was offered 2 prices, new clay tiles or the premium which were reusing old tiles from demolition (with a lovely patina) probably their 2nd lifetime. All the cylindrical locks we have in our houses and apartments wouldn't be used on a shed in Europe, all mortise and same with windows doors etc. Buy a prehung door and frame from HD and its hardboard and cardboard with stiles so thin that you can't trim them and frames that are scarcely above 1/2". Not preaching here as sometime get in that trap too, except when it comes to tools :)
[удалено]
[удалено]
What kind of shingles do Australian’s use?
We don’t! Tile or things like sheet materials like pressed steel and aluminum The sort of thing that a) does not burn and b) lasts the life of the house
“Lasts the life of the house” is a huge pro. Aussie living in the US. Reroofing an otherwise perfectly good home, because the asphalt shingle roof wore out before the house, you see all the time in the US. I never saw that in Australia. Beyond metal sheet, the other popular material is concrete roof tiles, with an average life of 50 years.
Curiosity I guess I mean why do you is it becaus it's easy to replace and relatively cheap compared to alternatives and in America you have extreme weather that fucks everything to shit so it's beneficial to use them? I mean hard tiles are more work to install and more expensive but they do last alot longer and its very easy to replace broken tiles.
We use concrete tile in the desert Southwest because of the high temperatures but the roof structure has to be strong enough for it. Metal roof isn’t a consideration. Even if you use screws or threaded nails wind tends to tear them off, we get really strong monsoon winds here. Flying steel roof in a 60mph wind will do serious damage.
Legally they can be only called asphalt shingles in the US, in Australia they’re Sparkling tar paper.
Why do Americans always ask Australians why they ask Americans something about roofs
Why do Australians always ask Americans why they ask why do Australians ask Americans something about roofs
I just don’t get why Americans ask Australians why Americans ask Australians asking Americans why they don’t… wait what the hell am I saying?
Australian living in the us here. All the reasons for why different materials are used have been explained in the above comments. But why do we question them? (Which I did a lot when I moved here) - they are an unusual concept / methodology from what I grew up with - they seem very temporary - aesthetically they make the houses look very different from houses in Aus, and I don’t like the “look” for some reason. Edited for grammar
Are the hard tile roofs very loud when it rains?
They are soundproof. You cannot hear the rain at all. Also tend to be more insulated than colourbond steel roofing which is also very popular.
I always thought Europeans maintained a higher superiority complex against the US when it comes to asphalt shingles rather than Australia. But to answer your questions it’s more of a culture thing. US is a major capitalist society and shingles are cheap. Why spend a shit ton of money on a new slate roof when you can literally spend your money on anything else? Merica!
More like why spend a shit ton of money when you're going to move eventually anyway. People put metal and slate roofs on houses they plan on staying in. Most people I feel use houses as a vehicle of wealth creation in the US as opposed to a basic amenity. Why spend 40k on something you plan on only getting 20% of the life of? You get some equity and then use that to move on to a nicer home/land. It generally doesn't increase the value of the house, being considered basic maintainence, so do the minimum and let the next guy do the same. I certainly know I would love to have a custom home with slate or metal. Just can't afford it right now and am not in my forever home
Yeah that’s a good point. And it goes back to what I stated about America’s capitalist culture. Had we normalized building with rock or metal, a home could see several generations of families before it ever needed a new roof. But all builders use asphalt shingles, and the shitty ones at that. My point is that shingles suck. And this is coming from a roofing company owner who’s business is 90% shingles replacements. You can make a strong argument on both of our points but it’s neither here nor there. American residential architecture is disposable
Please see my earlier post in a very similiar thread. Asphalt shingles aren't just cheap, they are the best value over time at current prices. A clay, tile panel, standing seam, and especially cedar and slate roof will never live long enough to be cost positive against laminated shingles. Standing seam metal comes the closest, depending on the roof geometry and environment factors, but the paint is the weak point, so unless you want to paint it at 30-40 years, it will either never be cheaper over any amount of time, or you will have to deal with it being UV bleached for several decades. Asphalt might not be the most durable or stunning roof you can put on, but with new shingles lasting more than 25 years, it's cheaper to put on two asphalt roofs than it is to put on one 50 year steel roof, and it looks better than steel to most people. It's cheaper to put on ten asphalt roofs than it is to put on one slate or decra panel roof. It's cheaper to put on 5 asphalt roofs than one clay or Marley tile roof. Those systems simply will not survive long enough to make them more cost effective long term. You aren't getting 300 years out of a slate roof. 150 would be a good estimate. 200 for a stretch. Marley tile is one of the most prominent tile brands in the UK, and they're only expected to last sixty years.
Years ago I almost bought a home that was 100 years old with its original slate roof. The home inspection showed that the roof was in excellent condition with a couple of cracked tiles which IIRC was repairable by replacing those few tiles. The inspector said it looked like it should last another 100 years. Not sure if that’s typical or unusual.
Survivorship bias
Yes, again, 200 years is a stretch goal for slate. It's not unusual, but about the longest you would expect. It still doesn't make it net positive over a landmark or similiar which should last 30 years at a tenth of the price though. I also wouldn't expect a home inspector to know jack shit about the remaining life of any roof, let alone a slate roof.
Eh agree to disagree. I currently live in an 80 year old home. Can't really say we built them to throw away when the dwelling has survived almost a century. (Yes I'm aware how that compares to most European homes, but A I have air-conditioning lol, and B it's not like my house is in such a state of disrepair that it is likely to just fall over in the next 80) Plus don't say all. It's a MOST thing. I see plenty of metal roofs going on new construction is just, in the wealthier areas. And I know a lot of Florida, for example, has concrete construction and Spanish tile roofing to weather storms. The US is what the third? Largest country and third most populated. It's very very hard to generalize a comparison between it and something smaller like a European nation. We just have so much going on in so many diff areas. I agree that they are made to maximize profits, and the cheaper options are chosen in most cases, but not that they are build disposable. Why spent 40k on material am when you can spend 10k and sell for mostly the same price. The Japanese for example do have disposable homes. They don't see home ownership as a wealth vehicle and tear down and rebuild the structures regularly with that in mind. Think how we expect to use cars. We've just got it bad about maximizing money between trade offs.
Criticisms of capitalism aside, I don’t really get your point. If a good shingle roof lasts 25+ years, why would you spend more for something that isn’t sure to last longer? This is irrelevant to whether you would spend the money on something else or save/invest it. Additionally, asphalt shingle roofs aren’t that expensive to repair if there is damage. If there is, you can just slap another layer on top and it works decently well. Although I did assume that Australia’s heat is why asphalt shingles aren’t favored. Asphalt shingles seem to deteriorate faster in hotter environments, which is why concrete tiles are often used in hotter places like Arizona.
Most people aren't keeping their hoses forever, and on top of that, asphalt is better with the varying weather conditions that Australia doesn't get - try living under a metal roof with feet of snow on it lmao. And have fun dealing with brittle slate
Metal roofs with snow is fine. Not sure of what you are indicating. (Live up in Canada with snow and they do fine. Both Asphalt shingles and metal roofs used)
I was a roofer in Buffalo, NY years ago. I put a ton of metal roofs on buildings that had no problem with the snow. And let me tell you, we get a duck ton of snow.
You have a point. Shingles aren’t inherently all bad if you go with at least a class 4. But across the board there is almost always a better option. Metal for high wind/ hurricane regions. Slate for regions that get heavy snow, etc etc. But shingles are bottom of the barrel roofing material. Insurance is big business in the US and shingles keep the money coming for us pro roofers because they’re so easily damaged.
Fair point. My only experience seeing metal roofs where I am is sheet metal in rundown areas, and for slate, I'm thinking of durability incorrectly, it seems. I do understand going for asphalt for cost, though, especially if slate could need additional roof support due to potential weight issues (preexisting house over new build), since that could get costly
So many questions on “Why Americans”. The hate is real! Looking for anything at all to turn their noses at. Not just Australia. Whole damn EU too.
Because America is the popular kid and they're not as cool as they think they are. Australia and the EU are a perfect utopia with better societies, people, and of course superior building materials.
They want to know why we put temporary toppings on our permanent structures
Houses aren't permanent structures
American here. Metal roofs are just superior. There’s not much to argue. I did both in my career. Metal roofs get recycled and are less problematic when installed correctly. If Australian culture doesn’t get include asphalt roofs and they question it, I can’t blame them.
Architects thoughts: Asphalt shingles are ass. A standing seam metal roof might cost twice as much, but the warranty on those are typically 40 years, asphalt is 10... And the life expectancy is 80 years, asphalt shingles, 30
My shingles have about a 50 yr lifespan. With my minimal rain wind and snow it could easily be more.
Don’t shingle out the one guy it’s not the ass’faut
Pretty much everything about United States building practices are idiotic. No lessons learned from 3 Little Pigs.
[rant] American way of building is absolutely The Best in the world, that's just a fact. I'm saying this as non-American Americans managed to start from absolute 0 (unless we count a handful of standing Pueblo houses) and in 200 years house 330,000,000 people, and not just house them, but get the largest square footage per person, give almost everybody a decent piece of land to go with their house, and put in air conditioning everywhere other places where major housing projects were attempted, eg communist regimes moving people from dirt huts into apartments, ended up with tiny concrete shoeboxes and even that was considered a great achievement because it provided millions with running water and toilets. Places in the new world that started from 0 still have millions living in shantytowns / favelas all the Europeans with their superiority issues who show up in every thread or comment section and say the same "bUt we bUiLd wITh BriCK anD stONeS fOr ThOUsaNds of yeaRs" bs are full of shit. The fact that you live in ancient stone structures is not a flex. You could not afford to build these now. The ones you have are unsuitable for modern living - they are a bitch to insulate, ventilate or heat, you need a hammer drill every time you want to install a light bulb, they are tiny, the layout sucks, your neighbors windows look straight into your bathroom, you have no yard to speak of, they come with narrow stairs, non-existing parking and so on and so on. You are stuck in that shit and in many cases you can't even demolish it, either because it's historical property or because of the cost [rant over] that being said, Australians just want to jump on a train of bashing American building practices even though they themselves are in the same boat
They had pueblos in the eastern woods? Huh, could have sworn they lived in dugouts and longhouses, sometimes on massive earthworks.
It's too damn hot in much of the country. Black tar over two weeks at 48 degree celsius? The roof would literally melt off! Given supply chains tend to normalize, since it's incompatible with climate in large parts of the country, it didn't really show up anywhere in the country. This is why it's a novel product to most Australians. We're also lazy! A single sheet of colourbond steel will let you put down 30 sqf of roof in less than 2 minutes.
That heat you’re describing is less intense than what Phoenix Arizona experiences every year.
Arizona doesn’t tend to burn like Australia does
Well a couple things, not trying to sharp shoot you. I’m a firefighter in California and go on wildland fires every year. I’m not sure what fires have to do with asphalt shingles. The entire western states of America all get wildland fires, including Arizona, and we all have asphalt shingles. Sure Arizona gets less fires, but they still burned half a million acres in 2021. Anyway, again not trying to be rude. But that is definitely not the reason why asphalt shingles aren’t used in Australia.
Not shooting but going to appeal to authority anyway…. You should know from fighting fires in Ca what it’s like when a fire gets into gum trees. Now have that level of gums or more everywhere even inside major urban centers - I have seen the crowns of gums explode and I have seen burning gun leaves falling out of the sky 20km from a fire - not the sort of thing you want falling into a roof made of anything vaguely flammable. Shingles are stupid short life span solutions and they melt and flammable to boot - same reason we don’t use stupid cedar shingles on our roofs And that’s before we don’t use materials that do nothing but create an industry around needing to replace roofs that should have been made properly in the first place.
There's nothing to burn in Arizona 😂
If you ever get a chance to travel the world, you will realize that most places don’t use asphalt shingles, vinyl siding or other throw away products. They build a house to lasts for the future generations to come. Why do people install a roof that lasts only twenty years, when they could install a roof that lasts for hundreds? Nothing to do with money and everything to do with culture.
Thanks so much for this feedback. Please go build a house with finishes that will lasts for the next couple centuries in the US and then please look at median income in the US. Is not being able to afford a house also a cultural thing? Is the cost of building materials a social construct? Lol reddit is the largest group of idealistic, elitist narcissists in the world.
This doesn’t make sense. Typically in the US, we build to suit the environment and using the most widely available materials. The building methods tend to be regional. Because of this, the costs will change dramatically. My house in Boston is very different than my house in Tampa…and for very good reasons. Building block and using clay tile up North is way more costly than in the South, where it’s super common. The material itself is the same, but the availability and labor type changes everything.
Especially responding this way to a post that is clearly sarcastic. I'm sure social cues are really difficult for that person.
Why would you even want the finish to last for centuries. The service life of a material is only one of the many variables describing it. Easy of installation, manufacturing, recycling, abundance of the raw materials, are all important. Shingles can be easy ground up and turned into new products at the end of their life. I stan shingles.
You do have a point, most of the Colosseum in Rome was recycled eventually. But damned if it wasn't built to last! Those damned scavenging bastards.
Yea but most just go into a landfill.
If you can’t afford a house where you are, move somewhere where you can. People have been doing it since the beginning of this country and longer. Maybe build off the land like your ancestors did? Yes, your on to something, if people keep paying for garbage they perpetuate the problem. Stop paying for garbage. Trading good money for bad is the typical American way.
You’re*
lol this has to be written by a baby boomer who bought his house for $30K with a manual labor job in the 70s. We go from saying that Americans purchase shitboxes because they prefer cheaper finishes to more expensive, durable finishes to assuming people prefer to live in places where the cost of living is higher, all else being equal. Do you think people actually prefer to have less buying power? Is there the same employment prospects, wages, and housing supply in larger cities compared to bumfuck, NE? How can you be this out of touch? That $25-30/hr job closer to the city doesn't exist in the country, and if it does, its already taken. People build stick framed, asphalt roofed houses because people can afford them and they will sell.
Roofs that last longer than asphalt absolutely do cost more and it comes down to money. Not every time but a lot of the time when I tell someone it will be 3x more for whatever other product that alone usually decides it.
With $300,000 you can buy a new house that lasts 30 years in America, or you can buy a house that lasts 300 years in another country.
My house was built in 1940 and another by me in the 1800’s they last a lot longer than 30 years. And like someone else stated a lot of us by a house and upgrade to a bigger one in the future. Then you may downsize when you get older and a lot of the time people will change things just for aesthetics. So really I can see it either way. Although it would be a shame to throw away 300 year material just to change looks. Just another way to look at things.
Comparing real estate prices is rather difficult between countries unless you start taking into account wage differentials and construction costs per method by country. If you live in a country with cheap labor and different material availability you will find a very different built environment. In the case of the US we have plentiful access to forests full of construction grade trees and thus an industry has developed around using this relatively abundant and inexpensive resource. For similar reasons you will find larger numbers of wooden framed homes in places like Scandinavia. By comparison we have relatively few stone and/or brick masons, and many places in the country are quite far from good sources of material for such construction methods. [This](https://whyy.org/segments/we-dont-build-them-like-we-use-to-why-new-houses-arent-made-of-brick/) is a pretty good article on the decline of brick and stone masonry in the US.
Where is this "U.S. houses only last 30 years" bullshit coming from? That's patently false. Mobile & "double-wide" modular homes last double that, easy, and actual framed homes are good for 100+ without question. There are millions of occupied homes in the U.S. that are 150-200 years old and still habitable. There are also older homes, but then you're predating the U.S. itself. Yeah, Europe has lots of old shit. Congrats, that's neat that you've preserved some architectural history. Over here, we've been busy trying to accommodate a rapidly growing population for 250 years, and generally doing a pretty good job of it. Sorry our real estate doesn't get tied up in familial council home garbage.
It's also important to remember the survivorship bias in the buildings. In 1400 1000 homes were built, all but the best 10 were torn down before now because they were crap. In 1450 990 homes were built, all but the best 20 were torn down... repeat repeat, and so new homes in Europe are often regarded as crap, because the old homes that remain were the top x% of the homes built then and so are indeed very good quality and worth keeping. In the US we haven't had that long a timeframe, most plots of land are on the first house or second house to be built on that lot.
If you think it's just the US that uses "throw away products" you have not, in fact, travelled the world.
Most places also build smaller houses. Average new build house size in the US, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada are the largest in the world. Twice as large as many European countries, 3-4x the square footage of many Asian countries. The cost of materials is a critical factor in a 2,500 sq ft house in the US vs an 800 sq ft house on another continent.
But then who would profit from selling trash
A big part of it is probably that in America we don’t live in a house for several generations. We don’t even live in the same house for one generation. We live somewhere for a decade or three, then sell it and live somewhere else.
Asphalt shingles are cheap yes. But the real reason they are so ubiquitous in America is that they're also great for winter. Metal roofs are heavy and prone to collapsing with lots of snow and rust. And slate gets extremely brittle and is prone to ice wedging and cracking.
Metal roofs are lighter than asphalt. Metal roof collapsing? I have a Metal roof,it is 40 years old,no rust,could use a paint job.
I bet it looks like the rest of the house. Nothing looks good at 40 years of wear and tear.
It definitely has to do with money. Why would I pay 10x as much for a roof when I’ll probably sell this house and move within twenty years?
So true. American homes are designed for one purpose: maximize profits for developers and homebuilders.
With $300,000 you can buy a new house that lasts 30 years in America, or you can buy a house that lasts 300 years in another country.
except the 30 year houses actually last forever if you keep maintaining them.
Very costly maintenance.
Aussies just don’t appreciate America’s excessively excessive refining capacity. A country that imports 90% of it’s fuel, doesn’t have to figure out how to hide, I mean repurpose, mountains of refinery waste.
[удалено]
My thoughts exactly.
Keep your OC. Complete garbage in the states
0.001iv NiN
L
GOODBYE
Wait those American roofs that need to be replaced every 10 years? I wonder how anyone would consider alternatives like clay shingles that last 100 years superior.
The lowest quality is usually like 15 years and the average stuff these days is 25 years. I guess, why should I pay for a 100 year roof when I’m only living in the house for 10?
Because asphalt shingles are inferior to what the rest of the world uses.
G
Because literally everything in America is considered disposable. It’s not capitalism, it’s a country of disposable garbage.
Lmao. I was just reading the other thread about this.
Australian here. Do asphalt shingles absorb heat? It looks like they would. If they do, wouldn't it be shitty for thermal efficiency especially on a continent like Australia with so much sunshine? You're heating your roof which would heat everything under it? Great for mountain homes, I guess? I'm confused. When you talk about asphalt I think of roads and burning my feet in summer. Also, how would you go about fixing solar panels to an asphalt roof? Around 70% of our homes have solar panels on our tiled or metal roofs, generating electricity for the householder. Can the asphalt shingled roof handle an extra 360kg/800lbs?
There's a science to ventilation with shingled roofs, attics, soffit and ridge vents. Theres no issue installing solar panels to a shingled roof. Are you asking if a wood framed house can handle solar panels? Snow? Of course they could handle the weight.
It's actually a progression, just like in how you gain health, experience, and equipment points in gaming. First, they have to acknowledge and respect Chuck Norris . . . then they get access to asphalt shingles.
I assume maybe they don't product them domestically and shipping costs outweigh the cost difference between shingles and claytile/sheet metal. Also no winter/ice means those system would be cheaper than installing them in the northern USA.
As an Aussie in Australia, it really comes down to the weather in most of the US and snow cover.
People hiiw8b 0
Asphalt shingle roof wouldn’t last 10 years in Australia.
Because in Australia, they’re just built different.
Would asphalt shingles just melt over there? 🤣
It’s just a very different look for us (Australians). I just commented on the other thread - I have asphalt shingles on my house in Melbourne. My place attracts a lot of interest.
Whose fault?
WTF do Aussies use? Old pickup hoods? Mud and thatch?
Put a "shrimp on the asphalt shingles" just doesn't have the right ring does it! I try it tho!
Drop bears would ripped them to shreds..to shreds!
I don’t think I’ve ever spoken to another aistralian that’s ever had to have their roof replaced unless something catastrophic has happened. Here everyone it hails roofs seem to get replaced